[HN Gopher] Antiplatelet and anticoagulant therapy resolves long...
___________________________________________________________________
Antiplatelet and anticoagulant therapy resolves long covid in 24
patients
Author : tcamde
Score : 213 points
Date : 2022-01-05 13:41 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.researchgate.net)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.researchgate.net)
| hammock wrote:
| tokai wrote:
| >a group of vocal doctors who get ignored or suppressed by the
| media
|
| You make it sound so ominous. But if you look them up they have
| gotten a ton of coverage from all kinds of media. Pierre Kory
| et. al. has also published (and are still publishing) numerous
| articles in (non hoax/predatory) science journals. Sure they
| are critiqued, but that is what happens when you go against a
| majority opinion (disciplinary not popular).
| _jal wrote:
| > You make it sound so ominous
|
| It is like a group of folks only recently discovered the
| marketing value of being "banned". A lot of them apparently
| just noticed punk rock this decade, I guess.
|
| And so you get amazing spectacles like Bari Weiss whining
| about being shut of out public discourse... in the NYT and
| WSJ. I'm sure many of her intellectual adversaries would love
| to be shunned to a similar degree.
| EricE wrote:
| Talking about bans is not an open debate about an actual
| subject - it's just more dodging/suppression of dissenting
| opinion.
|
| Discourse around dissent of the popular narrative is simply
| not allowed and indeed you are doing the same. Deflecting
| to talking about bans/access, rather than the pro's/con's
| of treatments other than just the vaccines for COVID. Gives
| people like you the comfort of being open minded without
| actually being open minded.
| _jal wrote:
| > Discourse around dissent of the popular narrative is
| simply not allowed
|
| What are you talking about? You're dissenting right here.
| People do it in the national press daily, as they have
| been for literally years now on this particular topic.
|
| No, what certain people don't like is that their
| preferred narratives aren't taken as seriously as they
| want. So whining about "suppressing dissent" is a more
| palatable explanation for their butthurt, whether sincere
| (as you might be) or manufactured (like I was pointing
| to).
|
| My high-school band didn't suck after all. We were
| suppressed!
| ccn0p wrote:
| Dissenting and getting downvoted, kind of proving the
| point.
|
| My experience living in a county and working in an
| industry that are both dominated by one particular way of
| thinking given to them by authority figures (CDC, New
| York Times, etc.) is that if you step outside that way of
| thinking and pose fairly innocuous questions that
| challenge it, two things happen: you lose all
| credibility, and you get called pretty bad things
| (racist, conspiracist, etc). That alone is pretty
| detrimental to pushing the envelope with hard
| conversations.
|
| I have no doubt (and hear) that what I personally
| experience is also happening across the media and
| entertainment industry resulting in groupthink even
| inside the rooms that are supposed to be doing journalism
| and asking the hard questions that criticize and question
| authority.
|
| As I type these words, it's almost as if the root of this
| is whether you trust those in "authoritative" roles, or
| not. And fear for ones health turns us against each other
| if we feel like those authoritative figures are either
| helping, or hurting.
|
| Anyways. If you think what Bari does is whine, that's too
| bad. Of the growing band of "counter-narrative" folks
| (Glenn Greenwald, Bari, Matt Taibi, Russell Brand, etc.)
| she's rock solid in her reporting and I oftentimes feel
| like she's doing what journalism should be doing. Spend a
| bit more time actually reading (or listening) to her. She
| covers a gambit of topics.
| _jal wrote:
| > getting downvoted
|
| In the US, you're entitled to free speech. You're not
| entitled to respect, or even an audience.
|
| And I'm sorry, but if getting downvoted is political
| oppression to you, you need to grow some skin.
|
| > She covers a gambit of topics.
|
| I have read her. She's a boring and repetitive
| replacement-level whiner who's built a brand appealing to
| people with certain kinds of insecurities.
| ccn0p wrote:
| On that logic, if that's the case, then shouldn't a
| responsible "mainstream" media (CNN, NY Times, WaPo, etc.) be
| talking about these published papers by Pierre Kory et al.
| even if positioned as "minority viewpoints"? Instead what we
| tend to see is fact checkers springing into action and media
| continuing to only push a single "majority" narrative further
| dividing all of us instead of uniting us together to have
| open dialogue and letting the best ideas win in the public
| space.
|
| It's all so bizarre.
| mikeyouse wrote:
| This is such a silly line of argument -- If someone writes
| a paper that says "the sky is pink" -- you would afford
| them no airtime at all, even as "minority viewpoints".
| These doctors are quacks, they get as much mainstream media
| coverage as quacks deserve.
| edmcnulty101 wrote:
| Listening to Robert Malone and numerous other scientists
| like Anders Tegnell and Dr. Peter McCoullough and other
| people with credentials that make your credentials look
| like those of an HVAC technician, it's strange that the
| HVAC technician would call them quacks.
|
| Just because you have the main stream media on your side
| doesn't mean your narrative isn't 'the sky is pink'.
|
| It could mean the emperor wears no clothes but is too
| unaware to see it.
| mikeyouse wrote:
| It's not the 'narrative' thats on the side of vaccines
| and actual useful therapeutics -- it's the vast majority
| of science.
|
| You sound exactly like my elderly obese neighbor whose
| rationale for not getting vaccinated is "all those
| doctors who aren't getting it have to know something I
| don't". If 99% of scientists and doctors are on one side,
| and you need to resort to credentialism instead of actual
| research to prop up those who are on the other, you're
| not really standing on solid ground.
|
| If ivermectin worked, it would have had signal in any of
| the dozens of trials we've run. If Malone had anything
| useful to say, he wouldn't be hanging out with Steve
| Bannon and Tucker Carlson and lying about "inventing MRNA
| and DNA vaccines" and whether vaccines are cytotoxic.
| These people are frauds and we'd all be better for saying
| that plainly.
| edmcnulty101 wrote:
| Labotomies won the Nobel price.
|
| You're trading appeal to authority for appeal to the
| crowd.
|
| Both are logical fallacies.
|
| Most smart doctors and scientists are reserving judegment
| at this point, because all of this is happening in real
| time, so any data to make a rational decision is
| incomplete. Smart people would know better.
|
| It's hubris to have the confidence that you and the
| mainstream media do about a novel virus and a novel
| vaccine using novel vaccine technology.
|
| And it's really bad to shut out dissenting opinions from
| public discourse especially when they're subject matter
| experts.
|
| New Orleans had full confidence in it's levees backed by
| 99% of the scientists and engineers in the area, then
| Hurricane Katrina happened. People reported leaks in the
| levee's years before it happened and were ignored.
|
| There are so many questions and conflicting or
| inconsistent data in the mainstream narrative. The fact
| that the media doesn't report anything conflicting is a
| huge red flag for me.
|
| Whether Ivermectin works or masks work or quarantine
| works...it's all irrelevant.
|
| If you haven't learned that this is an endemic virus by
| now and that people need to make their own decisions and
| not be co-erced by big government to follow a
| questionable narrative built on incomplete data, ...your
| HVAC technician and your obese neighbor are clearly
| smarter than you.
| EricE wrote:
| how much stuff that just a few months ago could have gotten
| you banned by social media/big tech is now accepted as fact?
|
| This week the big revelation is cloth masks don't work. Well
| no kidding. Last week it was PCR tests can give excessive
| false positives if you had COVID or the vaccine. Something
| the creator of the PCR tests was trying to point out over a
| year ago and he got banned from social media for his efforts.
|
| So yeah, it's far more than critique - it's been flat out
| scorched earth to suppress anyone who remotely deviates from
| the the blessed narrative and frankly it's been extremely
| disgusting to watch. We had hundreds of thousands if not
| millions of people who ended up in hospitals when it was
| utterly unnecessarily.
|
| If Ivermectin was still under patent and not available in
| generic form I'd be willing to wager large sums of money it
| wouldn't have been demonized as a horse dewormer by the media
| shills. Japan's cases and hospitalizations have fallen off a
| cliff and the Washington Post just had a big article where
| they were all puzzled and trying to figure out what was
| different. Well they completely overlooked (intentionally?
| ignorance?) that in early August Japan authorized Ivermectin
| for COVID treatment.
|
| Purely a coincidence, I'm sure. Never mind COVID never broke
| out as intensely as was expected in Africa despite them not
| having as early access to the vaccines. Gee, I wonder what
| was different in Africa too.
| nradov wrote:
| Currently the Japanese ministry of health recommends that
| ivermectin only be used as a potential COVID treatment in
| clinical trials. It's not otherwise authorized. Some
| physicians do prescribe it off label, and it's possible
| that could have affected the course of the pandemic in
| Japan, but at this point we have no reliable data either
| way.
|
| https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2021/12/21/national/iverm
| e...
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| Just for my own curiosity I clicked on your link. The I-MASK+
| protocol also currently recommends Ivermectin (and if you don't
| have ivermectin, use black cumin seed), mouthwash, and a half
| dozen different vitamins for prevention and early treatment.
| nradov wrote:
| There is some clinical evidence to support curcumin as a
| prophylactic or treatment for COVID-19. The evidence so far
| is weak, but it's cheap and has no real side effects at
| normal dosage so from a risk versus reward standpoint it may
| be worth a look.
|
| https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphar.2021.6693.
| ..
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| Fair enough, but outside of the ivermectin misinformation,
| it feels a lot like busywork, giving people agency and a
| feeling of having done something when they haven't.
| nradov wrote:
| Where is the busywork? Other than ivermectin, the other
| recommended interventions also have at least some
| clinical evidence and no major negative side effects for
| those that choose to use them. Have you actually analyzed
| each of them within a risk versus reward framework?
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| I'd argue that doing a list of things with the argument
| of "might as well" is the definition of busywork.
| axel6665 wrote:
| surgeryres wrote:
| Very interesting study.
|
| I am an expert in the field of clotting mechanics (US NIH funded
| research / vascular surgery fellow). Not sure why they chose TEG
| to monitor coagulation status - it does not reflect well changes
| from any of the drugs used in the study.
|
| It would be interesting to see the results broken down by gender
| - females respond much differently to aspirin and have less of a
| survival benefit than males (don't get me started, many of the
| initial trials in the 60's with aspirin were done with mostly
| males).
|
| Also, in my own research - we have found that aspirin "softens"
| clots which allows platelets to squeeze pathological clots to
| smaller sizes, which allows more recannalization of thrombosed
| vessels and thus less ischemia - would be interesting to see if
| that same MOA happens here.
| cpncrunch wrote:
| Uncontrolled, open label.
| mkarliner wrote:
| So 24 patients reported relief of symtoms. It would occur to me
| that a placebo effect could account for this. A study with a
| control group would hold greater validity in my mind. This seems
| purely anecdoctal despite academic styling.
| merpnderp wrote:
| Placebo effect accounts for changes in their blood markers for
| micro clots? I'm a big believer in the power of the mind, but
| this seems a stretch.
| johncearls wrote:
| It could also simply be time. To me this is obviously a small
| study that should be followed up (quickly) with a double
| blind, randomized trial. Until then, I'd be hesitant to put a
| bunch of ppl on anticoagulants.
| _3u10 wrote:
| My advice, don't prescribe people anticoagulants until
| you're satisfied it's safe for your patients.
| iamthepieman wrote:
| The point is that without a control group there's no way to
| know.
| nradov wrote:
| That's not strictly true. Consider our complete set of
| medical knowledge today. What percentage of that knowledge
| came from studies with control groups?
| yamrzou wrote:
| When experimenting with new treatments, a control group
| is very important. Otherwise the study could be biased in
| favor or against the treatment. Even when a control group
| is present, a poorly-designed experiment could later turn
| out to be problematic, such as the Diethylstilbestrol
| (DES) medical tragedy
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethylstilbestrol). In
| that case, studies that were in favor of the treatment
| were poorly-designed and used historical controls instead
| of contemporaneous ones.
| kadoban wrote:
| I suspect nobody would argue that lack of a control group
| is better, but this should still be a good lead for
| something to look at more deeply. It's not like it gives
| you no information.
| yamrzou wrote:
| Agreed.
| [deleted]
| inciampati wrote:
| It's about the fraction of that medical knowledge is
| likely to be revised when considering new controlled
| studies.
| nradov wrote:
| Over a sufficiently long time horizon the fraction of
| medical knowledge likely to be revised approaches 1. That
| includes all knowledge generated from controlled studies.
| _3u10 wrote:
| Even with a control group, there's no way to know.
| texasbigdata wrote:
| I drove to Germany to see the machines. Spoke to the doc
| admistering it. It's a potentially painful almost full day
| procedure. We discussed the placebo thing. I'm not an
| expert on medical ethics but personally I would not want to
| be intubated (potentially wrong word) into that thing for
| hours and not get treatment.
| costcopizza wrote:
| No, there is a way to know, just not the way you want to
| know.
| iamthepieman wrote:
| Ad hoc trials? Aka testing in production.
| ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote:
| Observational studies, which are much more frequent than
| randomized trials and just as effective, if not more.
| swader999 wrote:
| I'd urge anyone suffering long covid to take a look at the FLCCC
| protocol for treating it. Results were immediate for myself and
| I've seen tens of others that have followed it resolve their
| issues.
|
| https://covid19criticalcare.com/covid-19-protocols/i-recover...
| yuubi wrote:
| Is this the FLCCC that pushes ivermectin (a fine worm killer,
| but no panacea) for covid?
| mikeyouse wrote:
| Yes - a bunch of discredited quacks (with multiple papers now
| retracted for the terrible quality of their science) causing
| enormous headaches for every practicing doctor and nurse
| having to treat the unvaccinated "Facebook Researchers" who
| end up in the hospital trying to get their useless cocktail
| of meds.
| swader999 wrote:
| What specifically in the linked protocol do you disagree
| with?
| mikeyouse wrote:
| I don't need to do a line-by-line rebuttal of a Covid
| protocol my HVAC technician wrote -- though he likely did
| more to help the pandemic by changing out HEPA air
| filters than the Front Link covid quacks did with their
| awful advice and martyr complex.
|
| If someone is catastrophically and unapologetically wrong
| on problem 1a, you don't really need to pay attention to
| their solution to problem 1b.
| swader999 wrote:
| Ok, so just ad hominem then I guess. Lazy and a
| disservice to yourself and anyone suffering from this.
| mikeyouse wrote:
| Sometimes the timing is just great -- how about the fact
| that the protocol was designed by several grifters
| selling fraudulent "long Covid" tests and charging people
| thousands of dollars for tele-health visits where they
| then lie about lab tests and prescribe drugs that don't
| remotely work.
|
| Just published now:
|
| https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/01/desperate-
| patie...
|
| These people should be in prison.
| swader999 wrote:
| I didn't suggest anyone use IncellDX or covid long
| haulers.com. Just because Bruce Patterson had his name
| associated with the flccc doesn't prove anything about
| it's viability. Keep trying.
| [deleted]
| mikeyouse wrote:
| If the fact that fraudulent grifters developed the
| treatment protocol you're advocating for, I'm not sure
| where to go from there. (Not just Patterson, but Yogendra
| too -- it's not just "his name associated" with flccc --
| he and yogendera are two of the primary authors of the
| protocol!)
|
| And if I understand your timeline right --- you think a
| single dose of the vaccine gave you "long covid"
| symptoms? So you're going to rely on the long-covid
| treatment path, even though you've never had the virus?
| Yikes man..
| swader999 wrote:
| Yikes man indeed. Hard to describe how desperate I was
| back then. If you read the protocol, you'd see where they
| describe how a subset of vaccine injury and long covid
| essential present and are treated identically.
|
| My story: got all the long covid symptoms, started eight
| hours after the AZ vaccine. Tested negative twice on pcr.
| 3.5 months with little improvement. Optometrist noted
| blood heme in eye, had a clot removed from forehead vein
| recently. Both of those noted within a week or three of
| vaccine date. At the 3.5 month date I started that
| protocol, first with ivermectin. Within five hours I felt
| better than I had in the past three months and then in
| five days brain fog, sob, headaches, extreme fatigue,
| heart issues, high blood pressure all resolved. I quit
| the daily dose of ivm then and started prednisone for
| remaining lung inflammation. (Describe this like extreme
| asthma, any deep inhalation would trigger coughing). That
| worked. I still have a bit of a dry like congestion that
| lingers (8 months since vax).
|
| Maybe I caught covid same time frame as vax but the two
| negative tests seem to not support that. The symptoms
| certainly presented right after the shot. They very
| clearly resolved a few hours after the ivermectin. It was
| like a light switch. My wife noticed improvement in my
| color even.
| texasbigdata wrote:
| Super not helpful. Also, some of your points could be
| debated (fluvoxamine recently, statins in trials, vitamin
| C, etc). But overall the tone makes it hard to have a
| civil discussion.
| mikeyouse wrote:
| It's my contention that it's actively harmful to truth,
| science, and public health when we pretend like there's
| value in having a "civil conversation" with bad faith
| actors.
|
| There's no benefit to cosplaying as Socrates when there
| is no data point or research result that could change the
| mind of these weird conspiracy theorists. If a well-done
| study came out tomorrow that demonstrated Ivermectin
| worked to help Covid patients, it would literally be in
| every hospital's protocol tomorrow.
|
| On the opposite side, these charlatans have been
| promoting IVM since March 2020 with absolutely no
| evidence of efficacy (often at the expense of convincing
| people to not get vaccinated). What little evidence has
| come out has only weakened the case for it as a
| treatment, and yet, they're still promoting it as
| fervently as ever.
|
| If you want a long-covid treatment protocol, you should
| absolutely look somewhere else aside from the pages of
| the most stubbornly wrong people in this whole pandemic.
| They've shown repeatedly that they don't care about
| updating their priors when there's contradictory
| evidence. At least the HCQ dorks have mostly retired to
| complaining about cancel culture.
| texasbigdata wrote:
| I personally formed a three person reading group with 2
| friends (one chemistry PhD and one retired tech CEO
| that's a longevity genius) and we read a stack of these
| papers end to end and even attempted to fumble through a
| recalcution of a meta-analysis following the retraction
| of one paper.
|
| Before personally taking the medicine we spent 1.5 weeks
| reading everything we could find. Straight from Google
| Scholar or pubmed. Respectfully, I disagree with you. But
| that's based on my own reading and I'm not an MD or
| medical professional.
|
| I would say, a) it is very common in certain countries,
| and like hey, they awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine
| partially for it in 2015, but b) we have to agree to
| disagree here, were just too far apart on tone. But
| respect your point of view.
| mikeyouse wrote:
| Ivermectin is a fine anti-parasite, and plausibly has a
| mechanism of action that could benefit specific patients
| infected with specific viruses. Unfortunately for all of
| us, it has no measurable benefit on Covid. As shown again
| and again.
|
| We have hundreds of millions of active infections, it's
| dead-simple to do research studies to determine whether
| something prevents hospitalization, or shortens length-
| of-stay, etc etc. You don't have to spend weeks of your
| life reading primary materials -- here's the EUA for
| Paxlovid (Section 14):
|
| https://www.fda.gov/media/155050/download
|
| A pre-registered RCT, with specific endpoints and
| statistically significant evidence that it lowers viral
| load, and prevents hospitalization and death. It only
| took 4 months from study enrollment -> results to see how
| effective it was. Paxlovid works! Hurray! IVM doesn't.
| Rats.
|
| Good faith individuals would move on and investigate
| something else that could help humanity but admitting you
| were wrong doesn't get you invited onto Joe Rogan so here
| we are, with people _still_ referencing their nonsense.
| hammock wrote:
| If anyone is interested in the data available on ivermectin
| for COVID, and whether it works, you can find a lot of it
| here: https://c19ivermectin.com/
| jrussino wrote:
| I found Scott Alexander's review to be very informative:
| https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-
| more-t...
| swader999 wrote:
| I read all that a while back. It is good and about all
| you can get out of it is to conclude that ivermectin
| needs more study. Unfortunately its off patent and won't
| get much $$$ thrown at it. Its getting hard to ignore the
| growing mass of people that have just said, hey, this is
| obviously safe and I'll just try it. And holy sh-t it
| worked! (that's my story...).
| swader999 wrote:
| Ivermectin has many modes of action. It's been recognized as
| a potent anti viral long before covid.
|
| For instance, see Ivermectin is a specific inhibitor of
| importin a/b-mediated nuclear import able to inhibit
| replication of HIV-1 and dengue virus.
|
| Ivermectin is a potent inhibitor of flavivirus replication
| specifically targeting NS3 helicase activity: new prospects
| for an old drug.
|
| A screen of FDA-approved drugs for inhibitors of Zika virus
| infection.
| [deleted]
| nicoburns wrote:
| Huh. This is interesting. I also have some fatigue, but my most
| obvious long-covid symptom is heart pain/strain which is
| aggravated by either an elevated heart rate or dehydration.
|
| I'm no expert, but intuitively this would seem to provide a good
| explanation of those symptoms.
| andor wrote:
| Dehydration is not a symptom, it's a cause. Just drink more.
| runnerup wrote:
| I'm hopeful that research into whatever "long covid" syndrome
| is/isn't leads to excellent new medical knowledge that applies
| to much more than just COVID edge-cases.
|
| I suddenly got similar symptoms since getting a nasty version
| of strep throat last October. Notably I had an elevated fever
| (>102F) for quite a few days straight. I've never had COVID but
| I did get the mRNA vaccines + booster.
|
| Since that fever, my heart goes into light arrhythmia all too
| frequently. It used to be maybe once or twice a year I'd notice
| 1-3 seconds of "off-beat" heart pattern. All of of a sudden
| it's a few times a week. I'm also getting older (entering mid
| 30's now), live in some of the worst air quality in the US
| (next to a bunch of chemical plants which are frequently
| releasing quantities of ethylene
| oxide/mercaptans/styrenes/acrylates/etc), and haven't been
| exercising much at all the past few years (largely due to air
| quality issues). My diet isn't the best either, but I
| incorporate a lot of fresh salmon which keeps my blood pressure
| down, triglycerides low, and HDL really quite high.
|
| There's probably more I could do to help myself using just
| current medical knowledge, but additional knowledge and medical
| practices are always, always welcome IMO.
| superbaconman wrote:
| Tell your doctor about your symptoms and then ask for an ECG.
| You want to know if you have an underlying heart condition.
| Depending on what you find, there may be options that will
| eliminate your arrhythmias.
| dmichulke wrote:
| Anecdotally, I also had arrhythmia and after a few months
| and visits to doctors I figured out it was the _type_ of
| coffee I drank. Changed back (from Espresso so standard)
| and the arrythmia was gone. YMMV
| kingsloi wrote:
| I had similar symptoms in January 2019, I went to Urgent Care
| and then the ER because of heart arrhythmia, I felt sick, but
| no major fever. I put it down to anxiety (never suffered with
| before), but part of me wonders if it was COVID.
|
| Out of curiosity, where do you live? I too live next to a
| bunch of chemical/steel plants and have been tracking air
| quality, weather, traffic, etc. https://millerbeach.community
| in Gary for a few years. Winds from North>South produce the
| best air quality, E>W or W>E produce worse, same with S>N.
| nradov wrote:
| There was no COVID in January 2019. However there are a
| zillion other infectious diseases and other medical
| conditions that can cause cardiac symptoms.
| TechBro8615 wrote:
| You might be interested in reading this (very long,
| amateur, pseudononymous, non-peer-reviewed) analysis
| theorizing "SARS-CoV-2 presence in China as far back as
| March 2018." [0]
|
| [0] https://theethicalskeptic.com/2021/11/15/chinas-ccp-
| conceale...
| Panther34543 wrote:
| For a very long time I've held a theory that the general
| pandemonium due to the mischaracterization of the media
| regarding the danger of the virus to the average person
| resulted in substantially more voluntary hospital
| admissions than would have otherwise occurred, thus
| reducing availability for those who actually needed to be
| hospitalized, thus increasing deaths.
|
| I, and nearly every colleague in the downtown San
| Francisco office I worked at, contracted Covid in early
| January 2020. There should be no doubt that there was
| already widespread community transmission in California
| in late 2019. Yet, strangely, "hospital capacity" did not
| become a concern until right after the U.S. declared a
| nationwide state of emergency in March.
|
| Why was it not a problem in the nearly 4 months prior? I
| believe many people were convinced that the virus was far
| more dangerous than it was, and voluntarily began seeking
| hospitalization when none was actually needed.
| mikeyouse wrote:
| You'd be more informed (less uninformed in reality)
| reading a tabloid about bigfoot on the moon than whatever
| the hell that is.
| TechBro8615 wrote:
| Do you have any substantive critique to offer of the
| various lemmas established throughout the piece, which
| refers to itself as "an argument and petition for
| plurality under Ockham's Razor?"
|
| Or do you rely solely on appeals to authority when
| filtering signal from noise? I've noticed throughout this
| pandemic that many arguments supported on such a weak
| basis have later been disproven or severely undercut by
| further evidence.
|
| Some examples: the virus likely leaked from a lab (at
| some time); masks reduce transmission; the virus is
| airborne; there is no sterilizing vaccine; vaccinated
| people can catch and transmit Covid; vaccines have waning
| efficacy; "fully vaccinated" will eventually turn to
| "recently vaccinated;" the mRNA vaccines can lead to
| myocarditis to such a degree that their risk may not
| outweigh their benefit for some age groups; a variant
| will eventually emerge with a high degree of immune
| escape...
|
| There are many examples of conspiracy theories becoming
| mainstream narrative months later. So while many of them
| remain conspiracy theories, and the information
| environment continues to be overwhelmingly noisy, it
| seems imprudent to discount a source based on appeal to
| an authority that has been so consistently wrong,
| sometimes even willfully so (like when CDC lied that
| "masks don't work" in order to save them for healthcare
| workers).
| mikeyouse wrote:
| Are there any conspiracy theories you don't believe or do
| you just assume they're all equally plausible?
|
| It's a workday and I'm busy but I'll grant you one
| substantive critique; the OP heavily relies on "mutations
| per year" as a metric to derive how plausible it is that
| something like Omicron could have mutated in the
| timeframe necessary.
|
| Does it strike you as a bit suspect to rely on a
| mutations/time period, and completely ignore the number
| of infections? It should. The rate of mutations/year is a
| useful metric for determining the average mutation rate
| between two different viruses given certainty of their
| dates -- it's not at all useful for "aging" a specific
| variant because the calculation is independent of the
| number of infections.
|
| We're in the midst of a pandemic with hundreds of
| millions of infections, so the selection pressure for
| more "fit" viruses is immense. OP tries to get around
| this by claiming that the rate of mutation that we've
| actually measured (which is an order of magnitude higher
| than his assumption!) is suspect and would "extinguish
| SARS COV2 within a season" but that's just gibberish.
| runnerup wrote:
| Propublica has some excellent research published lately
| (it's an entire series of articles based on one primary
| analysis): https://www.propublica.org/article/toxmap-
| poison-in-the-air
|
| It's based on somewhat-voluntarily reported data, rather
| than measured air samples. Mainly because we don't have
| effective air monitoring stations in anywhere near enough
| density to any kind of useful data science.
| sva_ wrote:
| Are you sure it's caused by COVID, or perhaps ever since you
| were sick you were exercising less?
|
| I had similar symptoms to what you describe after just not
| being very active for quite a while, but it resolved after I
| did regular cardio (cycling) for a while and ate better.
| runnerup wrote:
| I noted:
|
| > I've never had COVID.I did get the mRNA vaccines +
| booster.
|
| Regardless of root cause, probably just need to exercise
| more. See a doctor for good measure. Could be
| age/underlying condition, but exercise improves most of
| these things.
| JPKab wrote:
| I have a recommendation for you:
|
| You need to exercise. You are in your mid-thirties now. It's
| a big problem if you don't. But you have bad air quality
| where you live. I've dealt with this myself in the past.
|
| A relatively inexpensive solution that I recommend for anyone
| in areas with poor air quality is to build your own filter
| fans. Get a standard box fan, get a furnace filter that has
| HEPA ratings, duct tape the furnace filter to the back of the
| fan. One of these in a whole house does a good job. Put three
| of them in there and it's crazy how big of a difference it
| makes. My wife has respiratory issues and my son has asthma.
| My wife had to be hospitalized twice for wildfire smoke in my
| neighborhood. Once I started doing the filter fan trick the
| issues went away. You can then work out in your home. Used
| cardio equipment is ridiculously easy to come by. I purchased
| a reflex punching bag for my basement a few months ago and
| it's the best piece of cardio equipment I've ever gotten.
| Doesn't take up too much space wasn't too expensive either.
|
| I applaud you on your diet though. You definitely have a good
| grasp of the metrics that matter. Low triglycerides and high
| HDL are crucial, and good for you keeping that blood pressure
| solid. That diet is clearly doing good things for you.
|
| Just keep in mind that exercise does great things for mental
| health by relieving stress via hormones.
|
| One side note:
|
| You may have contracted covid and never known it. The only
| reason I knew I caught it back in February of 2021 was
| because of my complete loss of sense of smell. If not for
| that single symptom I would have never known I had it. It
| didn't impact me in any other way. My wife and kids caught it
| as well and had absolutely no symptoms. They only knew they
| caught it because they got tested along with me.
| runnerup wrote:
| I appreciate this. I used to row competitively through high
| school and college, so I do consider myself an "athlete" as
| an identity, but non-practicing. I recently lost 30 lbs
| (6'0" from 200lbs to 170 lbs) over the past year through
| diet, but need to exercise.
|
| Your advice for air filters is good general advice, IMO. I
| have a 700 sqft apartment with:
|
| 1x Honeywell HPA300 (rated for 465 sqft)
|
| 6x Coway AP-1512HH (each rated for 361 sqft)
|
| 1x Honeywell HPA100 (rated for 155 sqft)
|
| I also have a Honeywell FPR 10 filter on the HVAC air
| return. So, over 2800 sqft of CADR-rated filtering for a
| 700 sqft apartment. Activated carbon pre-filters are
| changed every 2 weeks and the HEPA filter is changed once a
| month. We spend about $400/mo on filters, on top of
| $1,100/month rent.
|
| Unfortunately, HEPA filtration does little for the type of
| air contamination that we're dealing with. Ethylene oxide
| is more like a "VOC" than a "PM2.5". The activated carbon
| filters help a bit, but are "used up" very quickly (1-2
| days IME). The HEPA filters do very little/nothing for VOC
| contamination as far as we can tell.
|
| Indeed, it is time to move away. I am in one of the most
| heavily-affected featured areas in this article[0].
| However, my wife and I work in the chemicals industry, so
| we have personal experience identifying most of the
| compounds by smell and have unusual awareness of their
| effects vs. most of the nearby citizens.
|
| 0: https://www.propublica.org/article/toxmap-poison-in-the-
| air
| JPKab wrote:
| Wow. Just wow.
|
| Really terrible to hear this. You aren't fucking around
| with this, but it's still not enough. $400 a month on
| filters is insane.
|
| Thanks for that article. Very eye-opening.
|
| I hope you get out of there soon, but I can't imagine the
| guilt you feel for the citizens left behind. Horrible.
| JohnicBoom wrote:
| You can use more than one filter. I've heard it called a
| Corsi box: https://www.texairfilters.com/a-variation-on-
| the-box-fan-wit...
|
| Basically, you're making a cube. One side is the box fan,
| with the intake coming from the inside of the cube. The
| other sides are taped together filters. It significantly
| reduces the strain on the motor of the fan, and you can use
| the cube for a long time before replacing the filters,
| since each one is filtering so much less air.
| mindslight wrote:
| "Ethylene oxide/mercaptans/styrenes/acrylates" are chemical
| pollutants and thus won't be taken care of by particulate
| filters. You need something like an activated carbon filter
| for that.
| JPKab wrote:
| Do they sell any furnace filters capable of stopping
| these?
| mindslight wrote:
| Well it's more like neutralizing as opposed to filtering,
| and sure there probably are some aimed at people with
| central air that want to reduce VOCs. I believe I've seen
| standalone filters in the context of plant growing. And
| perhaps there are carbon aquarium filters that would work
| for DIY? I myself just went for some off the shelf air
| "purifiers", which have a prefilter + particulate filter
| + carbon filter stack. It's the path of overpaying for a
| fan and gimmicky replacements, but they're quiet,
| automatically ramp up speed for high VOCs, and didn't
| require me to DIY something for once.
| Karunamon wrote:
| >Get a standard box fan, get a furnace filter that has HEPA
| ratings, duct tape the furnace filter to the back of the
| fan.
|
| Please be very careful with this. This significantly
| strains the motor of your average cheap box fan, and hot
| motors tend to die faster and can get hot enough to melt
| plastic and start fires.
|
| I'd really recommend an actual air purifier instead,
| especially if it will run while you're asleep or not at
| home.
| JPKab wrote:
| I always run it on the lowest setting, but yes, you need
| to be careful. Good point.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| I had heart arrhythmia after a full-blown covid. The 1-3
| seconds of strange patterns sound very familiar.
|
| It slowly resolved itself after some 4-6 months, but not on
| its own, I needed small dosage of Concor prescribed by the
| cardiologist.
| chaosmachine wrote:
| > I've never had COVID but I did get the mRNA vaccines +
| booster.
|
| > my heart goes into light arrhythmia all too frequently. It
| used to be maybe once or twice a year I'd notice 1-3 seconds
| of "off-beat" heart pattern. All of of a sudden it's a few
| times a week. I'm also getting older (entering mid 30's now)
|
| This is my situation exactly, starting a few weeks after
| getting my second booster (Moderna). I've read enough
| anecdotes and news reports to believe there are many people
| dealing with this:
|
| https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/myocarditis-ottawa-
| mrn...
|
| https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/she-thought-she-
| wa...
|
| It gradually improved (enough to stop waking me up), but I
| still get a lot more "off-beats" than I used to. Got my third
| booster recently (Pfizer), so far no major regressions.
| TechBro8615 wrote:
| > Got my third booster recently
|
| Out of curiosity, if you noticed these negative side-
| effects affecting the health of your heart after the second
| shot, why did you choose to proceed to get a third shot?
| nradov wrote:
| Any one of us could have had an asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2
| infection without knowing it. But there are myriad different
| medical conditions that can cause arythmia.
| znd wrote:
| Ctrl+f placebo - Phrase not found. Such a waste.
| Madmallard wrote:
| So is long covid post-thrombotic syndrome like in patients that
| survive pulmonary embolisms?
| neom wrote:
| Although never formally diagnosed I'm pretty sure I have/had long
| covid. I had mild covid in the summer, and it never fully went
| away, but what was left was inability to recall facts, brutal
| short term memory, and waking up with pounding pounding head
| aches that would not go away no matter how much Tylenol I took.
| Honestly it was awful, working was so difficult. It started to
| clear up about 2 months ago, around the same time I switch from
| Tylenol to Advil, and also started rubbing high CBD cream on my
| head daily. Headaches are now at about once a week, and last a
| lot less time, memory is getting better. I also decided to spend
| long period of time listening to familiar music from high school
| and college. My memory is pretty auditory, I thought maybe it
| would somehow help with recall. There was a time there that I
| genuinely worried about getting back to normal in terms of being
| able to work hard. I'm not exactly sure what this paper is about,
| but I'd love to get back to normal. :\
| cdrini wrote:
| The link between microclots and long COVID is new to me and
| fascinating. Anecdotally, this gels with some of the symptoms
| I've seen in friends/family. My father had reduced motility in
| his arm-- where he'd broken it many years before--for many months
| after recovering from COVID. Then one random day, after he'd
| strained himself a bit, he noticed the pain/restriction
| completely gone, and the skin had turned slightly black in the
| region where it used to hurt. Not a doctor, but feels like
| something related to a microclot? He described the pain as almost
| like a twisted nerve or vein.
|
| This HN post talks more about the link:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29808020
| treeman79 wrote:
| I was diagnosed with micro clots a couple years before covid.
| My symptoms mirror long covid exactly.
|
| Blood thinners resolved.
|
| When I got covid all the symptoms came back. I had to double my
| blood thinners for six months.
|
| Actual cause is Factor 5 Leiden. But seems to cause exact same
| sort of issues.
| SOLAR_FIELDS wrote:
| One of my more bizarre long COVID symptoms was blood vessel
| leakage on my feet. One day a month or so after getting over
| COVID my feet started noticeably swelling. I was worried I had
| a clot in my leg so I went to the ER but sonogram came out
| fine. Turns out I had worn too-tight shoes the day before and
| the vessels in my feet had swelled/leaked. This was my same
| pair of shoes I had always worn at same tightness (they were
| running shoes that I had always slipped on and off, never tied
| or untied) so I knew that it had to be COVID related.
| nradov wrote:
| Why do you know it had to be COVID related? Many conditions
| can cause swollen feet.
| SOLAR_FIELDS wrote:
| Because I had been wearing those same shoes for years with
| the exact same level of tightness and never in my life had
| swollen feet problem before. The bruising was also
| following the lines of the shoes which is how it was
| discovered it was related to the shoe tightness
| nradov wrote:
| None of that implies that COVID was the cause. It could
| just be a coincidence.
| ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote:
| Everything can be a coincidence, it's not an helpful line
| of inquiry when discussing personal experience. If the
| man experiences a once in a lifetime health issue after
| having caught a virus with symptoms that bear
| similarities to that issue and with all other factors
| remaining constant, that's as much validation as you're
| going to get from someone's personal experience.
| lmkg wrote:
| > Correlation doesn't imply causation, but it does waggle
| its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while
| mouthing 'look over there'.
|
| Randall Munroe, https://xkcd.com/552/ (mouseover text)
| delecti wrote:
| I feel like the two different definitions of "imply"
| (formal vs colloquial) make "correlation doesn't imply
| causation" simultaneously true and false. On one hand,
| correlation doesn't necessarily demonstrate causation,
| but on the other hand (like the comment says) it does
| suggest fertile ground for research.
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| We also don't make all our decisions in life based upon
| research.
|
| If I eat something and it upsets my stomach, I'm not
| going to commission a study on it. I'm just gonna avoid
| eating it.
| [deleted]
| mlyle wrote:
| It's reasonable to wonder if the illness you just recovered
| from is causing some ongoing symptoms, especially when many
| other people are experiencing ongoing morbidity from that
| illness.
|
| In the end, when it comes to individual cases of anything
| (even conditions we have a very strong understanding of),
| all we can rely upon is guesswork. (e.g. even if we know A
| causes significantly increased rates of B in study
| populations based on RCT evidence, it still doesn't tell us
| for any given person with A & B that their A caused B).
| cdrini wrote:
| Someone else in my family had a similar symptom after the
| vaccine ; legs were swollen, and then the night after, her
| legs became black/bruised! But it went back to normal
| shortly.
| ck2 wrote:
| It's a preprint that has already been criticized by peers
|
| It's resolving a symptom, not the cause and there's no long-term
| followup to see if the results stuck around.
| tcamde wrote:
| What are the critics saying?
| texasbigdata wrote:
| Can you please link to discussion (positive or negative) by
| knowledgeable commentators? Genuinely interested.
| swayvil wrote:
| Could covid not actually be just a disease?
|
| Maybe it's a disease + chronic unhealth. Due to age, pollution,
| obesity, bad diet, sitting on yr butt too much and/or etc
| ciphol wrote:
| Nearly all diseases are worse if you're in bad health to begin
| with. That doesn't make them "not just diseases".
| swayvil wrote:
| Well if they have no symptoms then they aren't really
| diseases, right?
|
| And there are a thousand species of varmint that inhabit our
| body without helping or hurting anyway.
|
| So yes, massive unhealth can definitely spell the difference
| there.
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| I'm not following. For some people a cold can have
| basically no symptoms and can even spread asymptomatically,
| and for most people it's just an irritation, but for the
| especially vulnerable it can kill. Would you argue that the
| common cold is also not a disease?
| swayvil wrote:
| The key word here is "for some". If nobody gets a symptom
| then it isn't a disease. If only a very few get a symptom
| then maybe we call it a disease and maybe we call it
| something else.
|
| A disease requires some minimum proportion of the
| infected to feel it. Otherwise it's just commensalism or
| something.
|
| Therefore, as the general health shifts, so does what we
| call our relationship with that varmint.
| jonathan-adly wrote:
| I was rounding in the ICU when COVID hit, we knew this 2 weeks in
| - so not new information at all. All my patients got a higher
| dose of Lovenox (anticoagulant) as soon as they hit the unit.
|
| The trick is balancing risk vs. benefits. Anticoagulants and
| antiplatelet will kill a 30 yo healthy person who slips on ice
| and hit his head. Your mild concussions are now massive brain
| bleeds.
| dpark wrote:
| > _I was rounding in the ICU when COVID hit, we knew this 2
| weeks in - so not new information at all._
|
| Sorry, what? You're telling us that you were treating long
| COVID patients in the _ICU_ when the pandemic _started_?
|
| I don't know if you misspoke or misread the headline or what,
| but in no way is it possibly true that you were treating long
| COVID with anything in the ICU at the beginning of the
| pandemic, or any time for that matter.
| jonathan-adly wrote:
| One of the underlying problems of COVID is an excessive
| immune system response, which we have known for 10+ years
| that it leads to coagulation issues. Long COVID or acute
| COVID - it is fundamentally your body fighting a battle in
| the wrong way. So, in that specific way, COVID is COVID.
| dpark wrote:
| So...you misspoke?
|
| I also find this a really odd line to draw. The fact that
| treating ICU patients with anticoagulants is standard does
| not automatically mean it's useful for long COVID patients.
| If it turns out that it's useful, awesome, but it's not
| obvious _a priori_.
| edmcnulty101 wrote:
| I didn't see them misspeak. They just clarified. Their
| follow up statement was right in line with their
| original.
|
| Pretty cool that they're ahead of the curve on this.
|
| Even if they didn't know about long covid officially,
| they followed the known science up to that point, and
| this is incompletely but interesting new data that's
| showing it's helping more than possibly known at the
| time.
| GenerocUsername wrote:
| I can tell you with absolute certainty that there are circles
| of of the web which knew incredible amounts of very accurate
| and precise details about COVID in Feb/March of 2020. The
| early mistreatments accounted for vast amounts of preventable
| deaths while people proposing the eventual correct solutions
| were deplatformed
| dpark wrote:
| 1. I would love some actually citations rather than a hand-
| wavey claim that sounds like conspiracy theory. This sounds
| like you're talking about hydroxychloroquine.
|
| 2. None of this matters to the claim I addressed. Long
| COVID it's not something that would be treated in an ICU.
| It's also not something that even had a name "when COVID
| hit".
| wantsanagent wrote:
| This is a big hammer. Please note this section:
|
| "A proton pump inhibitor (PPI) pantoprazole 40 mg/day was also
| prescribed for gastric protection. Such a regime must only be
| followed under strict and qualified medical guidance to obviate
| any dangers, especially haemorrhagic bleeding, and of the therapy
| as a whole."
|
| Induced hemophilia is no joke.
| merpnderp wrote:
| Do people really get holes in their stomach often enough that
| this regiment would cause them to bleed to death?
| kahrl wrote:
| Yes. Absolutely. GI issues are some of the most common
| medical problems. Ucers, polyps, sores, diverticula...
| QuercusMax wrote:
| My dad got a hole in his stomach from taking too much Advil
| (ibuprofen) for pain related to a broken vertebra.
| allturtles wrote:
| To be clear in case it's not clear to others, the PPI is not
| the 'regime' that creates the risk of bleeding, it's the thing
| you take to provide some stomach protection against the
| damage/potential damage from the other drugs.
| favorited wrote:
| Right. PPIs are available without prescriptions in the US,
| and are considered very low risk medications.
| jonathan-adly wrote:
| Using PPIs for a short duration is safe, using PPIs
| chronically is not safe and the risks have to be weighted
| very carefully. It's by far the most intervened on
| medications by clinical pharmacists (usually discontinuing
| for inappropriate use)
| MarcoZavala wrote:
| tasogare wrote:
| > Induced hemophilia is no joke.
|
| Note that this is one of the possible side effect mentionned in
| Pfizer documentation of their covid vaccine, reported in
| article research articles like [1], and it doesn't seem to
| bother too much people.
|
| [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33783953/
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| Sounds exactly like chronic fatigue syndrome, I don't know why we
| keep calling it Long COVID while we have a name for it.
|
| https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-cfs/ >
| Suggested causes or triggers for ME/CFS include: > viral
| infections, such as glandular fever > bacterial infections, such
| as pneumonia > problems with the immune system > a hormone
| imbalance > your genes - ME/CFS seems to be more common in some
| families
|
| I have a friend who got CFS out of nowhere (shortly before the 2
| years to flatten the curve started, no COVID involved) and it's
| bad, there is no cure and it's incredibly disruptive. At the same
| time, it's hard for people to take you seriously and not just
| call you lazy.
|
| Hopefully this study goes somewhere and we'll find a cure for
| CFS.
| myoldohiohome wrote:
| I hope so too. I recognized the symptoms (in myself) as soon as
| I started reading the abstract.
|
| ---
|
| from the link cdrini posted above, which is a Guardian article
| by one of the authors of the study in the original post.[0]
|
| "Even those without long Covid could benefit from such
| research, as symptoms noted in long Covid patients show many
| similarities to those seen in chronic and viral-related
| illnesses including myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue
| syndrome (ME/CFS) - another disease that has been dismissed as
| "psychological" for decades. Just because we have not yet
| identified a biomarker for long Covid does not mean biomarkers
| do not exist. We just need to look harder."
|
| [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29808020
|
| PS. Hope the post is done correctly, it's my first one here.
| aarongray wrote:
| If you're interested in Biomarkers for Long Covid and ME/CFS,
| look up Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome (CIRS). MMP-9,
| MSH, ACTH, TGF-beta 1, Cortisol, Glutathione, and Vasoactive
| Intestinal Peptide are a few of them. Lots of research here
| that was started by illnesses triggered by mold mycotoxins
| and lyme disease - the initial trigger is different than
| Covid - but the end result in terms of biomarkers and
| dysregulation in the body is the same. Doctors have been
| using these protocols to successfully treat patients for a
| few years now, but it just hasn't trickled down to the
| mainstream medical community or the medical schools yet.
|
| Further reading:
|
| - https://www.survivingmold.com/Publications/2493-Treatable_m
| e...
|
| - https://www.survivingmold.com/docs/Shoemakers_Protocol_for_
| p...
|
| - https://www.survivingmold.com/Publications/CIRS_diagnostic_
| p...
| aarongray wrote:
| Tell your friend to look into dysautonomia. There are some
| cutting edge treatments for chronic fatigue syndrome, they just
| haven't become mainstream knowledge yet.
|
| The two most effective approaches are using neuroplasticity
| exercises to retrain the limbic system (cheap, but time
| consuming - an hour a day for 6 months): https://ansrewire.com/
| https://retrainingthebrain.com/
|
| Or doing microcurrent neurofeedback (costs ~$150 a session, do
| one session a week for a couple months):
| https://microcurrentneurofeedback.com/
|
| Essentially you have got to get the brain producing the proper
| amount and type of brain waves again, and then once you have
| that, slowly work back into exercising while trying to avoid
| triggers and push / crash cycles.
| texasbigdata wrote:
| God bless you for this. Seriously.
| invitrom wrote:
| How risky is this therapy?
| aborsy wrote:
| Anticoagulants and anti-platelets increase the chance of
| hemorrhage in the brain.
|
| So while they prevent ischemic stroke and help with
| circulation, they might cause hemorrhagic stroke. The dose and
| time duration has to be carefully adjusted. It's a slippery
| slope in dealing with cerebrovascular accidents.
|
| Anti platelets (specially Aspirin 80 and Clopidogrel) are less
| risky than anticoagulants (such as heparin or warfarin).
| haroldskavar wrote:
| JohnJamesRambo wrote:
| I think I'm going to start taking aspirin. Oddly enough I took
| that a few times because I didn't have ibuprofen and I do feel
| like it helped a lot with the weird long symptoms I am
| experiencing.
|
| I'm triple vaccinated before anyone asks. I haven't tested
| positive for Covid on rapid tests but a lot of people seem to be
| in the boat I'm in right now.
| andor wrote:
| I assume you have read the hint that the authors left in the
| introduction for people like you:
|
| _" Such a regime must only be followed under strict and
| qualified medical guidance to obviate any dangers, especially
| haemorrhagic bleeding, and of the therapy as a whole."_
| JohnJamesRambo wrote:
| Well yes I'm doing a very light version of the protocol, no
| industrial strength anticoagulants. :)
| lrem wrote:
| So likely you won't meet the "better than placebo"
| threshold.
| nick__m wrote:
| A placebo is frequently better than nothing and sometimes
| better than the real thing. I can even work if you know
| that it's a placebo !
|
| Also placebo are getting stronger
| https://drdavidhamilton.com/the-placebo-effect-is-
| getting-st... ;)
| soperj wrote:
| My favourite drug to take for the placebo effect is
| water.
| ouid wrote:
| Mechanistically, placebo can only work on psychosomatic
| symptoms. There isn't any magic going on. If the problem
| is in your head, then thoughts can maybe help.
| baq wrote:
| The world you see, touch, hear, smell and taste exists
| only in your head.
| dpark wrote:
| Your head largely controls the rest of your body. If you
| take a placebo that you expect to make you angry, your
| levels of adrenaline will likely rise. There are all
| sorts of measurable, physiological changes that can be
| induced by placebo.
| sheinsheish wrote:
| Please reconsider after having a look on Joe Dispenza's
| book. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18051504-you-
| are-the-pla... At least consider the possibility that
| maybe (maybe = 10-50% chance?) there can be magic in our
| heads & bodies.
| mmastrac wrote:
| The recent paper on brain memory in immune response
| suggests this is no longer common wisdom. We just don't
| know. Evolution twists a lot of random wires together.
| heyoni wrote:
| Might work for Covid. Oddly enough, it was recently declared to
| be unsafe for long term use unless directed by a doctor since
| it can increase the chance of getting a stroke.
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/12/health/aspirin-heart-atta...
| treeman79 wrote:
| I clot like crazy. Micro and bigger ones. stroke symptoms in 48
| hours without meds. Prescription blood thinners solve symptoms
| extremely well.
|
| I couldn't handle side effects, so I switched to Aspirin. It
| mostly works. But not as well. Side effects aren't as bad.
| Doctors are pissed. But quality of life matters.
| LinuxBender wrote:
| I believe this was attempted at the start of covid once doctors
| saw some of the initial mechanisms. I want to say they stopped
| this because it caused downstream problems and complications
| with covid but I can't recall what. I believe it was Dr. Roger
| Seheult and another doctor discussing this on Medcram but he
| releases so many videos I can't find the specific one.
| easymodex wrote:
| I just got the booster shot today, previous times I had a weird
| headache and a new vein (felt it pulsing, didn't have it
| before) popped up in the white part of my eye (it's still there
| after 6 months), second time I had minor heart palpitations the
| day after so I'm kinda worried this time. Would taking Aspirin
| help prevent any kind of weirdness like that? I need to know
| asap so I can take it before anything potentially starts
| happening.
| JohnJamesRambo wrote:
| Unfortunately I think any anti inflammatory is not
| recommended when you get a vaccine. You want the immune
| system to be fully armed. That is my recollection from
| googling when I got my vaccines.
|
| Just hang in there you'll feel better soon.
| frostwarrior wrote:
| Vaccines are not Covid.
|
| Even the inactivated virus ones. They're just a very small
| viral load with an adjuvant to enhance immune response.
| merpnderp wrote:
| The mRNA vaccines create spike proteins which are fully
| functional and will bind to ACE2 receptors. The only real
| difference is that the mRNA vaccine spike proteins don't
| cleave off their connectors and litter your blood with
| extra trash and also won't flex down to the cell wall. But
| any cell randomly getting a spike protein tag-alone likely
| will no longer be a fully functioning cell.
| kyralis wrote:
| > But any cell randomly getting a spike protein tag-alone
| likely will no longer be a fully functioning cell.
|
| Do you actually have any evidence to back this up? Cells
| have a myriad of receptor sites, and single bindings
| without other resultant activity are highly unlikely to
| cause the cell significant damage.
|
| The side effects of the vaccines have nothing to do with
| the vaccine particles themselves and everything to do
| with your body's immune response.
| whatshisface wrote:
| Typically speaking the immune system will clear away
| cells with abnormal stuff on their membranes but I don't
| know about this specific case.
| swader999 wrote:
| Yes! And I think it's fair to assume that the vaccine
| spike can distribute widely throughout your body. Long
| covid and a subset of vaccine injury cases are very hard
| to distinguish. They present the same symptoms.
| manwe150 wrote:
| Why? We can hypothesize anything, but we shouldn't just
| assume everything. The manufacturers made changes to the
| RNA sequence to reduce the ability to leave the cell, and
| then tested it in animal studies to confirm.
| swader999 wrote:
| As OP indicates, it can still bind to ACE-2 and that
| changes the way these cells behave. Peristalsis in your
| veins is changed when the endothelial cells which have
| ACE2 are hit with spike (vaccine origin or covid origin)
| for instance.
|
| I think there's enough evidence out there that spike from
| vaccines circulate widely. I can dig it up if you want?
| manwe150 wrote:
| You are welcome to look for evidence, but OP is also
| wrong about the spike protein being "fully functional" in
| the vaccine. The spike protein sequence was modified in
| many ways in creating the vaccine, including to prevent
| it from undergoing the conformal change upon encountering
| ACE2 which would normally then cause the virus to then
| enter a cell.
|
| For a sample reference:
| https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/JVI.00203-21
| randcraw wrote:
| 80 mg/day aspirin generally has been shown to be safe long
| term, though it does increase irritation of the stomach. Maybe
| taking it with food will help that.
|
| I would absolutely NOT do the same with ibuprofen or any other
| NSAID. All other NSAIDs but aspirin have been shown to reduce
| blood vessel elasticity after habitual use. Adopting any med
| for regular use is not something to take lightly.
|
| "Ibuprofen, aspirin, and COX-2s all belong to the class of
| medicines called nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs).
| Most of them boost blood pressure and can counteract the effect
| of some blood-pressure drugs. They can also impair blood
| vessels' ability to relax and may stimulate the growth of
| smooth muscle cells inside arteries. All these changes can
| contribute to the artery-clogging process known as
| atherosclerosis."
|
| https://www.health.harvard.edu/press_releases/nsaid-side-eff...
| naasking wrote:
| Long-term ibuprofen use has a lot of its own problems, like
| gastrointestinal bleeds and interference with androgen
| production.
| ck2 wrote:
| The clotting in covid is fibrin based not platelet.
|
| If aspirin did anything for covid you'd be seeing it on the
| news every single day for the past two years.
| EricE wrote:
| "If aspirin did anything for covid you'd be seeing it on the
| news every single day for the past two years."
|
| lol! You seriously believe that? After all the BS about
| "horse dewormer" despite Africa, India and now the impact in
| Japan (hint they aren't spiking and their hospitalizations
| are practically zero and have been for more than two months
| now).
|
| If you think the mainstream media/public officials/big tech
| "fact checkers" have been remotely truthful on this thing you
| are beyond ignorant.
|
| Example - most recent backtrack that if you state on social
| media will still probably get you banned:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOEtZJPning
| lame-robot-hoax wrote:
| I don't see Ivermectin on the following list:
|
| https://www.pmda.go.jp/english/about-pmda/0002.html
|
| Over 77% of Japan's population is fully vaccinated.
|
| India doesn't even recommend using Ivermectin anymore.
| _Microft wrote:
| Have you read [0] already? This might give you an idea what
| might be going on with Ivermectin. Summary: parasite
| infections are widespread in some parts of the world.
| Treatment for Covid surpresses overzealous parts of the
| immune system which, unfortunately, makes the patient
| vulnerable to these parasite infections which in turn can
| kill the patient. Giving someone Ivermectin before treating
| them for Covid solves the problem by killing the parasites
| first. Therefore Ivermectin decreases the risk of death
| _with_ Covid (not _by_ ).
|
| [0] https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-
| more-t...
| beagle3 wrote:
| Budedenide was shown to help significantly if given early. So
| does fluvoxamine. And sufficient vitamin D3 level seems to
| work well as a prophylactic.
|
| And yet there's hardly any mention of them, let alone
| "everyday".
| open-source-ux wrote:
| " _I think I'm going to start taking aspirin_ "
|
| In the UK there is a large, ongoing clinical trial called
| 'RECOVER' to test different COVID treaments for _hospitalised
| COVID patients_. One of the trials included giving hospitalised
| patients aspirin. The trial was not looking at the treatment of
| long-covid symptoms (at least not directly in hospital
| patients).
|
| _" A total of 7351 patients were randomised to aspirin 150 mg
| once daily and compared with 7541 patients randomised to usual
| care alone. There was no evidence that aspirin treatment
| reduced mortality."_
|
| Link: _RECOVERY trial finds aspirin does not improve survival
| for patients hospitalised with COVID-19_ :
| https://www.recoverytrial.net/news/recovery-trial-finds-aspi...
| criddell wrote:
| If aspirin doesn't improve survival, does that mean it also
| will not help with COVID symptoms?
| [deleted]
| deelowe wrote:
| It feels to me that the medical community at large looks
| almost exclusively at data regarding severe cases. I'm
| certainly no medical expert but it seems reasonable to me
| that the treatments for someone who is literally dying from
| COVID could be completely orthogonal from those who are in
| the early stages of the infection. My understanding of severe
| cases is that the body is no longer or not only fighting the
| virus but also it's own immune response amongst other things
| (e.g. blood clotting). And that outcomes are mostly
| determined by how well the individual is able to weather the
| storm of their own immune system attacking them. I would not
| expect aspirin or similar treatments to have much effect when
| the patient has gotten to this point. Thought certainly,
| there could be some treatments that help which would prevent
| this from happening in the first place.
|
| And, I'm aware of the research (and money) being poured into
| antivirals. Of course that's a thing. I'm sure there are
| billions if not trillions to be made off a pill you "simply
| take daily" to prevent the "severe and long covid." The
| headlines write themselves. But I seriously wonder what
| research is being done on "mild" covid cases using more
| cheap/traditional medicines. I know where I live, the doctors
| don't even talk to you unless your case gets severe -
| basically once you need oxygen supplementation. Prior to
| that, you're told to stay home and rest. I'm not even sure
| they create a record in their medical system.
| phkahler wrote:
| >> It feels to me that the medical community at large looks
| almost exclusively at data regarding severe cases. I'm
| certainly no medical expert but it seems reasonable to me
| that the treatments for someone who is literally dying from
| COVID could be completely orthogonal from those who are in
| the early stages of the infection.
|
| This seems to be a problem with every account of "treatment
| X doesn't work". They wait until someone is half dead, use
| X, patient dies at same rate as without X, conclude X is
| worthless. "preventive" or "protective" are different words
| than "curative" and that seems to get overlooked in a lot
| of cases.
|
| Doctor A: When I see someone with Covid Symptoms I give XYZ
| and they never end up in the hospital.
|
| ER Doctor: We've tried X,Y, and Z in every combination with
| patients on ventilators and none of that saves them with
| any statistical significance.
|
| They can both be correct.
| Jabbles wrote:
| Obviously the medical community is aware of this.
|
| Take for example the very recent approval of
| Molnupiravir:
|
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59163899
|
| https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2116044
|
| _We conducted a phase 3, double-blind, randomized,
| placebo-controlled trial to evaluate the efficacy and
| safety of treatment with molnupiravir started within 5
| days after the onset of signs or symptoms in
| nonhospitalized, unvaccinated adults with mild-to-
| moderate, laboratory-confirmed Covid-19 and at least one
| risk factor for severe Covid-19 illness._
| JohnJamesRambo wrote:
| Thank you for the study.
|
| I'm not worried about mortality so much as getting over the
| strange long effects I'm feeling. I see this study as well.
|
| https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210315/low-dose-aspirin-
| ma...
|
| > But Magen's group found that people who'd already been
| taking low-dose aspirin to reduce their risk of heart disease
| had a 29% lower risk of contracting COVID-19 compared to
| those who didn't take aspirin, and that rates of aspirin use
| were much lower among COVID-19 patients than among those who
| didn't get infected.
|
| >Among people who did get COVID-19, the time it took for
| SARS-CoV-2 PCR test results to go from positive to negative
| was significantly shorter among those who used aspirin, and
| the duration of their disease was two-three days shorter,
| depending upon preexisting health conditions.
| phkahler wrote:
| >> RECOVERY trial finds aspirin does not improve survival for
| patients hospitalised with COVID-19
|
| How is survival defined? Do they mean "gets released from
| hospital vs. dies in hospital"? Because it seems a lot of
| things that can reduce severity of Covid (including vitamin D
| for example) don't change much at the last minute when you're
| at deaths door.
|
| In this case, we're talking about long Covid symptoms so it
| would seem a reduction in 1-year mortality should be the
| deciding factor (since Severe Covid patients who "survive"
| still have significantly increase mortality over the next
| year).
| cinntaile wrote:
| He's not talking about using aspirin as a treatment for when
| you are hospitalised due to covid.
| cdrini wrote:
| This doesn't feel super applicable. The body in the middle of
| a COVID infection vs months later is in a VERY different
| state. Also I don't even know if there's any mortality data
| for long COVID; it could just provide quality of life
| degradation.
| jacobolus wrote:
| I saw an observational study tracking hospitalized (but
| nominally surviving) Covid patients for a year where a far
| higher number died (of various causes) than the base rate
| in the population [sorry I can't find a link now in a few
| minutes of searching]. Some of this is selection bias
| (people who get bad Covid cases tend to be in worse shape
| to begin with), but I would expect the after-effects of
| Covid to cause significantly increased mortality. We'll
| have much better data about this in a few years.
| kybernetyk wrote:
| >I think I'm going to start taking aspirin.
|
| Hmm, this is probably hardcore anecdata and off topic but a
| friend of mine who got Corona pretty bad (but not hospital bad)
| said that once he took Aspirin his symptoms weren't that bad
| anymore.
| merpnderp wrote:
| I mean everyone should consult their doctor before doing
| something like this, but it seems reasonable that a disease
| which damages the body through blood clots would be
| alleviated by a drug which thins the blood.
| LinuxBender wrote:
| Are there by chance any similar tests on long covid patients
| using the enzymes Serrapeptase and Nattokinase? Or any of the
| other 30 or so related enzymes? Asking because Natto has the nice
| side benefit of binding to ACE2 and it is super easy to acquire.
| These enzymes are also Fibrinolytics.
|
| As a related question, how is Japan doing in terms of long covid
| cases relative to everywhere else? They eat a lot of Natto.
| nykiwi wrote:
| Thanks for this comment, I found it very interesting and now I
| want to learn about it all. Thanks :)
| pfisherman wrote:
| Why would fibrinolytics have any therapeutic effect? They are
| not anti coagulants (i.e. serine protease inhibitors), and work
| via an entirely different mechanism.
| LinuxBender wrote:
| Absolutely not anti-coagulants. They work in conjunction with
| them to break up clots and absolutely have many different
| mechanisms. I use six of those mechanisms for controlling
| blood pressure.
|
| The article topic covers fibrin amyloid microclots which is
| precisely what many surgeons have used these enzymes for in
| addition to removing scar tissue from the vasculature. On a
| side note this is a very divided and heated topic within the
| different groups of heart surgeons.
| sithadmin wrote:
| You're specifically using compounds like nattokinase to
| control blood pressure?
|
| Would be interested in hearing what your approach here is,
| or any literature you could share.
| imnotreallynew wrote:
| It was my understanding that the existence of "long covid" is
| still debated as there hasn't been any real evidence for it other
| than patient anecdotes.
| codingdave wrote:
| > https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/long-term-
| effects/...
|
| Highlighted on the page: "As of July 2021, 'long COVID,' also
| known as post-COVID conditions, can be considered a disability
| under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). "
| nradov wrote:
| Most any serious viral infection can potentially cause post-
| viral fatigue syndrome. We've known that for decades and
| COVID-19 is nothing special in that regard.
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3063394/
|
| But many cases of "long covid" appear to be psychosomatic.
|
| https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...
| ciphol wrote:
| And that's why this result is exciting - not only is it
| promising for long covid, but also for post-viral fatigue
| syndrome and chronic fatigue syndrome.
| henrikschroder wrote:
| An old friend of mine has long covid, the real deal, but she
| was also sick in covid for months in 2020. What she has
| matches post-viral fatigue syndrome perfectly, and she's
| getting care for it, from realistic doctors who've been
| saying that recovery is gonna be slow but steady. She's
| better now, a year later.
|
| And then, just as you say, there's "long covid", which is a
| large number of people who have very generic ailments, and if
| you start digging into the numbers, you realize it's all
| self-reported bullshit, where a good chunk of the sufferers
| haven't even been diagnosed with covid in the first place!
| Their symptoms match depression very well, though.
|
| It's extremely frustrating watching people like my friend
| getting ridiculed for having an imaginary disease. She
| doesn't. And at the same time it's even more frustrating
| watching a relatively huge number of psychosomatic
| hypochondriacs getting all the attention and using up the
| wrong kind of healthcare resources, just because a lot of
| people are using long covid for generating fear porn and
| _want_ it to be worse than it is.
| [deleted]
| vnchr wrote:
| It has a strong following on HN. Personally, I haven't heard
| about it anywhere else.
| Brave-Steak wrote:
| sj4nz wrote:
| The news media is kind of fickle about coverage about
| anything that doesn't get more ad revenue/impressions.
| Everyone's filter-bubble affects what they see. At least last
| July it got a minor boost of awareness from the White House:
|
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/biden-ada-long-
| covid...
|
| Medically it just seems to fall outside the flowcharts of
| modern medicine where an "easy fix" or "procedure" is not
| prescribed. Going outside of the "acceptable medicine" of
| what insurance will cover is practically a unicorn event. So
| you'll see a lot of doctors just calling it "anxiety."
| Functionally, Long Haul Covid has become a huge cash bonus to
| medicine as sufferers get referred (passed around) from
| specialist to specialist for more testing and diagnostics
| that nearly always comes up as "normal."
|
| About the only good news about this situation is very likely
| once they really get the studies done (and they're going to
| have to do it, because there will be millions of people
| suffering from this) they are likely also going to find how
| to help people with chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) since all
| the long hauling symptoms appear to over lap. CFS sufferers
| already have had the feeling of being ignored/ridiculed by
| medicine for decades.
| rendang wrote:
| Does anyone know if microclots have ever been investigated in
| relation to other post-viral disorders?
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-01-05 23:01 UTC)