[HN Gopher] Winnie the Pooh to Enter the Public Domain in 2022
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Winnie the Pooh to Enter the Public Domain in 2022
        
       Author : gscott
       Score  : 121 points
       Date   : 2022-01-01 04:46 UTC (18 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (comicbook.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (comicbook.com)
        
       | ddtaylor wrote:
       | It seems like just yesterday he became President of China but
       | it's been almost 9 years!
        
         | More-nitors wrote:
         | hm I guess he's already a PUBLIC figure anyway... now he's
         | officially public-public!
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | dang wrote:
         | " _Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic
         | tangents._ "
         | 
         | (especially the most shallow and common kind)
         | 
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        
         | backspace_ wrote:
        
           | AussieWog93 wrote:
           | It's New Year's Day, man. Everyone's fucked up right now.
           | Chill. :)
        
           | ddtaylor wrote:
           | It will be interesting to see if there is an increase in Pooh
           | memes about Xi. I mean, to be clear, there are already so
           | many it's hard to envision an increase, but somehow I believe
           | the Internet can do it.
           | 
           | Also, if calling Xi a cartoon character upsets you I suggest
           | NOT doing Internet.
        
             | backspace_ wrote:
             | And those memes are just as bad as your "joke"
             | 
             | If someone criticizing your low quality joke upsets you,
             | maybe you need to find a better place to join that circle
             | jerk.
        
       | cblconfederate wrote:
       | I can't believe that still copyrights last that long
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | merricksb wrote:
       | This was a part of the discussion about works entering public
       | domain 2 days ago:
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29734933
        
       | echelon wrote:
       | The big question: what happens when Mickey Mouse enters public
       | domain in 2024?
       | 
       | Will people be able to make Mickey cartoons independent of and
       | without the blessing of Disney? Will they be able to sell
       | merchandise? Market themselves using the Mouse? Incorporate the
       | character in their logos?
       | 
       | Does this only apply to the "Steamboat Willie" version of Mickey?
       | Can one use artistic license to get closer to modern Mickey
       | without running afoul of modern copyright?
       | 
       | Pooh is one thing, but Mickey going public domain will be
       | monumental.
        
         | ocdtrekkie wrote:
         | So, there are some really weird cases that lead to very
         | interesting lawsuits. Sherlock Holmes was involved in one: A
         | derivative was made based on early books becoming public
         | domain, and the estate sued them because they felt aspects of
         | his character shown in the derivative work wasn't actually
         | added until a later book which was not yet in the public
         | domain.
         | 
         | https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/25/21302942/netflix-enola-ho...
         | 
         | Which is to say, if you happen to put a red shirt on your Pooh
         | rip-off, it's very likely Disney can, and will, sue you. This
         | alone means that if you want to adapt Pooh (or Steamboat
         | Willie), you probably need to go a very different direction
         | than Disney has, such that the character is not likely to be
         | recognizable as the same.
        
           | Freak_NL wrote:
           | The Sherlock Holmes case is the one I was reminded of as
           | well. With such high impact fictional characters it took
           | years, spread over a range of published works, to establish
           | the quintessence and backstory people know them by now (not
           | that Mickey Mouse has many redeeming qualities beyond being
           | instantly recognizable).
           | 
           | That said, I'm looking forward to a potential noir detective
           | reimagining of Pooh. I hope they don't do the zombie thing
           | though; that feels overdone by now.
        
         | gjsman-1000 wrote:
         | Less than you think: I can't remember the report, but Disney
         | said the Pooh franchise had four times as much revenue as
         | Mickey Mouse at least in recent years.
        
         | kibwen wrote:
         | AFAIK Disney still has a trademark on Mickey Mouse, which will
         | last as long as Disney successfully continues to enforce it;
         | losing the ability to control the reproduction of Steamboat
         | Willie doesn't lose them that trademark. (IANAL)
        
         | Rebelgecko wrote:
         | Trademark and copyright are separate. So it's legit to stand
         | outside of Disneyland selling Blu-rays of Steamboat Willie, but
         | there are still limitations on how you can use the _character_
         | 
         | Some level of remixing/reediting the movie is probably OK, but
         | I'm not sure where the line gets drawn
        
         | chrisseaton wrote:
         | > Will people be able to make Mickey cartoons independent of
         | and without the blessing of Disney?
         | 
         | Note that Mickey Mouse is trademarked and will undoubtedly
         | still be trademarked come 2024.
        
         | bencollier49 wrote:
         | I believe that there's some disquiet about trademarks being
         | used to essentially create an unlimited copyright on
         | characters.
        
         | electric_mayhem wrote:
         | Disney has bought legislation to extend copyright term every
         | time MM has been up for expiry.
         | 
         | Do you have reason to believe history won't repeat itself this
         | time?
        
           | Seattle3503 wrote:
           | The last time copyright was extended was in 1998. Copyright
           | was considered a boring topic then, so no one but a few
           | librarians cared about a copyright extension. The political
           | landscape has changed since then. Organizations such as the
           | EFF and even Google would present strong resistance to
           | another extension of copyright.
        
           | Freak_NL wrote:
           | They have to balance the willingness of people to accept
           | copyright as fair with the few benefits extending copyright
           | even further would have. At this point the few bits of
           | intellectual property that will become public domain are so
           | few and mainly of historic interest, that a protracted
           | lobbying attempt (which could fail) would do more harm to
           | their brand than just defending trademarks and existing
           | copyrighted works.
           | 
           | I think the generally held view of the major content owners
           | is that the current (absurdly protracted) limits are good
           | enough.
        
             | bruce511 wrote:
             | Sucking a statistic out of thin air, I'd be amazed if you
             | can get 1% of people to even be aware of copyright terms,
             | much less feel politically motivated to spend political
             | capital fighting Disney.
             | 
             | It's the easiest lobbying in the world to extend copyright
             | terms. There are waaay more important one-issue topics on
             | the table than to worry about mickey mouse.
             | 
             | If Disney wants to extend it, they will. And if they do
             | there might be 15 seconds of bad press, then the next big
             | story will come along...
        
               | echelon wrote:
               | Google and other tech companies exist now that would like
               | to see copyright contracted.
               | 
               | But maybe none of it matters anyway. As tech improves,
               | the cost to create approaches zero.
        
       | EarlKing wrote:
       | > This only applies to the original works, and not to the
       | subsequent adaptations and merchandise, which allows for Disney's
       | incarnation of Winnie the Pooh to still be held under trademark
       | by Disney.
       | 
       | Oh bother.
        
         | thaumasiotes wrote:
         | Something similar happened with Sherlock Holmes, where IIRC the
         | first two volumes of stories fell out of copyright, but the
         | third volume was still copyrighted and using elements
         | introduced there was forbidden.
         | 
         | This is a terrible conceptual mistake on the part of copyright
         | law.
        
           | anjbe wrote:
           | Yes, last year--erm, I mean in 2020--the Doyle estate sued
           | Netflix for creating a movie in which Holmes shows emotion...
           | they claimed:
           | 
           | "Among other copied elements, the Springer novels [on which
           | Netflix's film is based] make extensive infringing use of
           | Conan Doyle's transformation of Holmes from cold and critical
           | to warm, respectful, and kind in his relationships." [1]
           | 
           | This is essentially the entire substance of the lawsuit: that
           | creating a new sister character that Holmes felt affection
           | for infringed on their copyright of a single passage in one
           | of the later Doyle stories where Holmes expressed concern for
           | Watson who had gotten shot.
           | 
           | Netflix settled.
           | 
           | [1] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6956021-Sherlock.
           | htm...
        
             | vmilner wrote:
             | The complaint reads:
             | 
             | "When Conan Doyle came back to Holmes in the Copyrighted
             | Stories between 1923 and 1927, it was no longer enough that
             | the Holmes character was the most brilliant rational and
             | analytical mind. Holmes needed to be human. The character
             | needed to develop human connection and empathy."
             | 
             | This seems surprising given:
             | 
             | "I fear that it is at a cost which will give pain to my
             | friends, and especially, my dear Watson, to you." - The
             | Final Problem (1894)
             | 
             | ""My dear Watson," said the well-remembered voice, "I owe
             | you a thousand apologies. I had no idea that you would be
             | so affected." - The Empty House (1903)
             | 
             | "Upon my word, Watson!" said Holmes at last with an
             | unsteady voice, "I owe you both my thanks and an apology.
             | It was an unjustifiable experiment even for one's self, and
             | doubly so for a friend. I am really very sorry.""You know,"
             | I answered with some emotion, for I have never seen so much
             | of Holmes's heart before, "that it is my greatest joy and
             | privilege to help you." - The Devil's Foot (1910)
        
             | unbanned wrote:
             | I wonder... Is tax paid on these settlements?
        
           | account-5 wrote:
           | I think most of copyright law is a conceptual mistake seeing
           | as it hardly serves the artists at all.
        
             | anthropodie wrote:
             | I think copyright laws should focus more on attribution to
             | original creator rather than who is copying and whether
             | they have paid or not.
        
             | gambiting wrote:
             | I think the biggest mistake is the assumption that if
             | others were allowed to use your creation in their works,
             | you would suffer in some way, that it would be taking money
             | and/or fame from the original artist. I think it couldn't
             | be further from the truth.
             | 
             | For instance, look at Dmitri Glukhovsky and his Metro books
             | - be basically allowed anyone to write any books placed
             | within the same universe, still using the "Metro" logo and
             | characters. Dozens of other books appeared, telling the
             | tales of other metro systems elsewhere in the world and how
             | they've dealt with the apocalypse - but the point is, all
             | those other books have only increased the popularity of the
             | original, and expanded it.
             | 
             | The other good example, weirdly, was always Star Wars books
             | - especially pre-Disney star wars was _very_ lenient with
             | what stories could be told, and unless it was just straight
             | up smut it would be allowed - as a result, star wars fans
             | had hundreds(thousands?) Of books telling stories with
             | their favourite characters and new ones but taking place in
             | the universe they loved. Yes Lucas took a cut, but in
             | general you could just write a book about Han Solo and it
             | would be fine.
             | 
             | That's how copyright _should_ work. Why not let other
             | people tell stories with Pooh and the rest?
        
               | OtomotO wrote:
               | I totally and wholeheartedly agree with you.
               | 
               | Here is the but: imagine someone were to publish a story
               | set in your universe where suddenly the nazis took over
               | and everyone liked it.
               | 
               | This is an extreme point, but it's one reason not to
               | allow everyone to use your trademark without prior
               | asking. Because maybe you're not okay with that AND
               | suddenly your a bit famous works are in the same pot with
               | something you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole aaaand
               | your sales go down.
               | 
               | Today's outrage culture could cancel you, even if you did
               | nothing wrong.
               | 
               | In a better universe I am all with you and I personally
               | would feel honored and flattered if other people would
               | use my created worlds for their works
        
               | gambiting wrote:
               | I think that's throwing the baby out with the bathwater -
               | what _could_ happen should stop us? I mean, sure, but I
               | somehow don 't think this is a real problem.
               | 
               | Going back to my example - among those thousands of star
               | wars books, there are some which are incredibly bad
               | nowadays, sexist, racist, or just pure trash that came
               | and went. I suspect its impact on the actual Star Wars
               | the franchise was zero.
               | 
               | >>Today's outrage culture could cancel you, even if you
               | did nothing wrong.
               | 
               | Maybe, but I don't want to live in a world where worrying
               | about it restricts my choices. If someone wrote a book
               | where the Pooh is now a dictator running a fascist
               | hundred mile forest, and it somehow sold a million
               | copies......then I'm going to laugh at the idiots calling
               | for the original to be cancelled. They shouldn't be given
               | any authority over this, outrage on twitter is cheap.
        
               | OtomotO wrote:
               | "what could happen should stop us" this is the base
               | assumption for a lot of laws and compliance bullshit. So
               | apparently, yes.
               | 
               | Also, you don't want to live in such a culture. That is
               | fine. You may create something beautiful and then
               | "donate" it to the public domain.
               | 
               | The choice is yours entirely.
               | 
               | Again, as a consumer I totally understand where you're
               | coming from. As a producer I would think differently
               | (that's simply empathy though, I am not a successful
               | producer)
        
               | anjbe wrote:
               | > aaaand your sales go down.
               | 
               | Whatever valid arguments might exist to restrict speech
               | through copyright, sales going down is not one of them.
               | Otherwise you could lawfully prohibit negative reviews.
        
               | OtomotO wrote:
               | Sales going down by someone using your original
               | world/characters in a way that is then deemed unpopular
               | is definitely restricted/not possible in a world with
               | enforceable Copyright.
               | 
               | And that was my point, not sales going down on their own.
               | 
               | Negative reviews have nothing to do with someone else
               | being able to take e.g. James Bond and making him a
               | homosexual or taking Conan the Barbarian and making him a
               | woman or a sidekick etc.
               | 
               | Drastic or even small changes can always be unpopular and
               | affect the whole franchise. If said franchise is no
               | longer under your control alone, this is an argument pro
               | copyright from the viewpoint of a creator.
        
               | anjbe wrote:
               | The point is that sales don't factor into it in the first
               | place. An infringing work could _increase_ sales, and the
               | copyright holder would still have just the same rights.
               | Think of anime fansubs--which effectively brought
               | Japanese anime to mainstream popularity in the west, yet
               | are still heavily cracked down upon by license holders,
               | and always have been.
        
               | OtomotO wrote:
               | Yes, it could. That is why you, as the copyright holder,
               | have the final say in the matter and may take the risk or
               | not.
               | 
               | Think about e.g. Warcraft. It was supposed to be a
               | Warhammer game. The license was "revoked", so they spun
               | up their own story/world and created a successful
               | franchise.
               | 
               | The thing is, I totally am opposed to copyright and
               | patents, yet I can see where they are coming from and I
               | can see reasons for them.
        
           | kwhitefoot wrote:
           | The original concept of copyright was quite straightforward
           | and the author held it for a very limited time. See
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Anne.
           | 
           | It is the later extensions that have perverted the concept.
        
             | thaumasiotes wrote:
             | How is that the original concept of copyright? That article
             | begins by saying this:
             | 
             | > Prior to the statute's enactment in 1710, copying
             | restrictions were authorized by the Licensing of the Press
             | Act 1662. These restrictions were enforced by the
             | Stationers' Company, a guild of printers given the
             | exclusive power to print--and the responsibility to censor
             | --literary works.
        
               | Jon_Lowtek wrote:
               | the original concept of copyright was to throw a bone to
               | middle/upper class printers so that the proliferation of
               | printing presses could be arbitrarily limited as the
               | ability for anyone to print anything threatened the
               | crone, the state and the upper class by printing
               | revolutionary ideas.
               | 
               | "Licensing of the Press" allowed to control who could
               | print, by lawful threat of violence, and that enabled
               | censorship of ideas. Copyright sweetened that deal to
               | those who owned printing presses: enforcement of scarcity
               | enabled a business model where good content could be kept
               | expensive and money is funneled to the publisher who owns
               | the exclusive right to make copies. For this they agreed
               | to do censorship.
               | 
               | The argument that copyright is a right of the content
               | creators, who were mostly dependent on patrons, and that
               | those creators could only be paid fairly by the
               | publishers if their product was exclusive, was peddled
               | back then and swayed some of the intelligentsia to
               | support the concept, but this was not the core ideal. At
               | the beginning copyright was about entrenching a small
               | circle of collaborators, who got the right to copy, and
               | violently removing the means of production of those
               | printing revolutionary thoughts.
        
         | themodelplumber wrote:
         | We should make an IceBear fork!
        
         | robin_reala wrote:
         | Honestly, why would you bother with Disney's boring incarnation
         | of Pooh when you've got Shepherd's original illustrations?
        
           | Al-Khwarizmi wrote:
           | Because it's the one all kids know from books and TV. I
           | wouldn't even know where to look for a book with the original
           | illustrations (I mean, if I spent some time searching hard I
           | guess I could, but that's not the point).
        
             | mcv wrote:
             | Finding a book with the original illustrations will be a
             | lot easier once it's public domain.
        
             | kwhitefoot wrote:
             | Here you are: https://www.waterstones.com/book/when-we-
             | were-very-young/a-a...
             | 
             | Took less than 30 seconds.
        
           | Ingaz wrote:
           | For me it's: "why would yoy bother with Disney's boring
           | incarnation of Pooh when you've got brilliant Soviet Winnie?"
           | 
           | I'm serious. Try find it if you didn't saw it
        
           | dubya wrote:
           | May I recommend the audiobook version with Stephen Fry as
           | Pooh, and an ensemble of other very talented actors? It's on
           | Audible but your local library may have it on CD. I've heard
           | it dozens of times by now and look forward to hearing it
           | again sometime.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | open-source-ux wrote:
           | There is an alternative animated version of Winnie the Pooh
           | made in Russia in 1969 by the director Fyodor Khitruk. Pooh
           | is more lively than the Disney version - and has a very
           | different character design to Disney (or Shepherd's original
           | illustrations). To be fair to Disney, their Pooh design is
           | closer to the spirit of Sherpherd's illustrations (but can't
           | match the charm of Sherpherd's illustrations).
           | 
           | " _When Khitruk visited the Disney Studios, Wolfgang
           | Reitherman, the author of Winnie the Pooh and the Blustery
           | Day that won the 1968 Academy Award for Best Animated Short
           | Film, told him that he liked the Soviet version better than
           | his own._ " [1]
           | 
           |  _Winnie the Pooh (1969) in Russian with English subtitles_ :
           | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCXegrxlKbI
           | 
           | [1] Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnie-the-
           | Pooh_(1969_film)
        
             | xattt wrote:
             | To give a sense of Russian "Vinny Pu", he was a pleasure to
             | watch for kids and adults alike. There was a running
             | commentary on everything that was happening around him. The
             | fourth wall was occasionally broken.
             | 
             | The closest equivalent to current television's programming
             | is the Australian show Bluey.
        
             | unbanned wrote:
             | Sounds an awful lot like Yoshi
        
       | irrational wrote:
       | When Peter Pan entered the public domain, there was a plethora of
       | new books reimagining the Peter Pan story. I look forward to see
       | what will be coming out around these new books entering the
       | public domain.
        
         | cableshaft wrote:
         | Board games too. There's several board games that are Cthulhu
         | or Alice and Wonderland themed, for example, because those are
         | in the public domain and no license fees are needed. I wouldn't
         | be surprised if we start seeing several Winnie The Pooh themed
         | games as well in a year or two.
         | 
         | Coming out this year alone are two Alice in Wonderland themed
         | games: Paint the Roses and Wonderland's War. Another old
         | favorite is a simple card game called Parade.
         | 
         | https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/253759/paint-roses
         | 
         | https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/227935/wonderlands-war
         | 
         | https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/56692/parade
        
         | spoonjim wrote:
         | There is already a great Winnie the Pooh prequel just out.
        
           | deusum wrote:
           | Proof that copyright and patents stifle innovation?
        
             | gjsman-1000 wrote:
             | For every good Winnie the Pooh story, there will be a
             | hundred acres of bad stories and questionable-taste
             | material made for it.
             | 
             | Expect the furries to have lots of fun with this. Is that
             | innovation? Things are always more nuanced than they
             | appear.
        
               | nicoburns wrote:
               | > Is that innovation?
               | 
               | Well, yes. People associate innovation with good new
               | ideas, but the process inevitably involves a lot of bad
               | ones.
        
               | shash wrote:
               | Of course it is!
               | 
               | Look at fairy tales, Robin Hood stories or Aesop's
               | fables. Not every adaptation is good, but every now and
               | then, you end up with a classic.
               | 
               | What's annoying is how often companies like Disney take a
               | public domain work, make an interesting derivative and
               | then turn around and lobby to make it impossible for
               | their derivatives to enter the public domain. They did,
               | after all, benefit from the same public domain...
        
               | spoonjim wrote:
               | The furries can and do write Winnie the Pooh stories
               | today. Nobody will stop them because those stories didn't
               | have any sizable income potential to begin with. They
               | live on furry web sites that don't catch the attention of
               | IP lawyers.
               | 
               | What public domain enables is for-profit adaptations of
               | Winnie the Pooh.
        
               | Kaze404 wrote:
               | Things you personally dislike are innovation as well.
        
             | lettergram wrote:
             | I'd argue potentially the opposite is true. Trying to
             | figure out new ways of doing things and new stories likely
             | lead to further innovation.
             | 
             | That said it might not lead to the maximum benefits, but it
             | should lead to the maximum diversity.
        
             | AnthonyMouse wrote:
             | > Proof that copyright and patents stifle innovation?
             | 
             | Proof that forever-copyrights stifle innovation.
             | 
             | It's a balance. No money and people who need to eat have to
             | dig ditches instead of creating. A hundred years of
             | monopoly when fourteen would have been enough and you're
             | constraining third parties more than you're providing
             | incentive to the original author.
        
               | mlyle wrote:
               | Yes, thank you.
               | 
               | I do think the original 14 years is a trifle short. Maybe
               | 14 years, with a cheap 14 year extension, and then one
               | more very expensive 14 year extension. Then you can get
               | long-lived film franchises, etc, while works that are
               | commercially irrelevant enter the PD relatively soon.
        
               | Aaargh20318 wrote:
               | > No money and people who need to eat have to dig ditches
               | instead of creating.
               | 
               | Which is why no creative works exist from before the
               | invention of copyright laws. Walk into any library,
               | concert hall, art museum or theater and you won't find
               | any works from before copyright.
               | 
               | /s
        
               | mlyle wrote:
               | Sure, patronage systems worked on a small scale. I don't
               | think they would work in our society.
               | 
               | Yes, not all art or literature would stop, but the number
               | of people who could pursue it as a profession would drop
               | precipitously.
        
           | gjsman-1000 wrote:
           | The prequel was an authorized story, not related to the
           | recent copyright expiration.
        
       | tzs wrote:
       | OT: does anyone here still have the ebook of Winnie the Pooh that
       | Apple included for free in your library when you set up iBooks on
       | an iPad?
       | 
       | They included it from the launch of iBooks (now called Apple
       | Books) in April 2010 until sometime in mid-2011. In mid-2011 it
       | became a paid book for new iBooks users but remained in the
       | libraries of existing users.
       | 
       | I noticed a couple years or so ago that it was no longer in my
       | library. I don't know when it disappeared because I only rarely
       | use iBooks, but everything else I remember getting in that first
       | year is still there.
       | 
       | Checking my account for ebooks on the account that are not on my
       | Mac, I don't see it, so it isn't the case that I somehow just
       | happened to delete it from my Mac. Nor is it on the list of
       | hidden books.
       | 
       | I'd have expected that if Apple had deleted it from existing
       | libraries when they lost the rights to give away free copies that
       | would have made the news but I've found no mention of that. In
       | fact, all I found was just the opposite--apparently there were
       | people who didn't want it in their library and were having
       | trouble figuring out how to get rid of it! [1].
       | 
       | [1] https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/how-do-i-delete-
       | winnie-...
        
         | KANahas wrote:
         | I've still got my copy... interestingly enough though, it
         | appears as several volumes now, of which only the first is
         | free. The others are $9.99. IIRC it used to only be one book.
        
       | gremlinsinc wrote:
       | This conversation's hard to follow, esp w/ all the IANAL
       | disclaimers...are there any lawyers who could maybe lay it
       | straight for me.. if I wanted to create my own darker version of
       | winnie the pooh...say in the same world as The Walking Dead...
       | 
       | If I use my own artwork, I can or cannot use all the character
       | names and attributes? Like Tigger is a Tiger that bounces.... or
       | Rabbit is...a Rabbit... Pooh's a bear....etc..
        
         | anjbe wrote:
         | You would be able to use only those elements whose copyright
         | had expired, meaning only what's in the original book. (See,
         | for example, _Pride and Prejudice and Zombies_.)
         | 
         | You wouldn't be able to use Tigger, because that character was
         | introduced in _The House on Pooh Corner_ , whose copyright
         | doesn't expire until 2024.
        
       | kingcharles wrote:
       | As with many articles on IP they are conflating copyright and
       | trademark.
       | 
       | The stories and illustrations will be copyright free, but the
       | names of the characters (certainly the titular character) are
       | covered by trademarks.
       | 
       | I'm no IP expert, so I don't know the repercussions of putting
       | out a book titled Winnie The Pooh containing the public domain
       | stories. Certainly you'd be in the clear if it was titled Fat,
       | Honey-Loving Bear Stories.
        
         | bdowling wrote:
         | > Certainly you'd be in the clear if it was titled Fat, Honey-
         | Loving Bear Stories.
         | 
         | If you're publishing the original book, you'll be able to use
         | the original title because you'll be using the name not as a
         | trademark, but as a descriptive term for the book.
         | 
         | For derivative works, you will probably want to make up your
         | own name that you can use as a unique trademark to identify
         | your derivative. (See, e.g., the recent Sherlock Holmes
         | derivative works: Sherlock, Elementary, Enola Holmes.)
        
           | dragonwriter wrote:
           | > If you're publishing the original book, you'll be able to
           | use the original title because you'll be using the name not
           | as a trademark, but as a descriptive term for the book.
           | 
           | You seem to be arguing that it would be descriptive fair use,
           | but the probability of confusion prong of the descriptive
           | fair use test seems likely to be problematic, especially in
           | an active franchise with newer works under the trademark that
           | are actually exclusive to the trademark owner by copyright as
           | well.
        
             | bdowling wrote:
             | If you cite the test you're referring to, then I'll tell
             | you why it doesn't apply to the title of a literary work in
             | the public domain.
        
         | dmitriid wrote:
         | > The stories and illustrations will be copyright free, but the
         | names of the characters
         | 
         | This doesn't make much sense. If the stories enter public
         | domain, they enter in their entirety.
         | 
         | Trademarks (usually) don't have such a broad application as
         | "this name X is forbidden for use everywhere forever and ever".
         | 
         | You will definitely be able to re-print and re-use the original
         | text, the original name and possibly the original illustrations
         | illustrations.
         | 
         | It's possible you won't be able to use certain name
         | combinations, illustrations etc. in merchandising, movies etc.
         | because Disney trademarked those.
        
           | Closi wrote:
           | > This doesn't make much sense. If the stories enter public
           | domain, they enter in their entirety.
           | 
           | In the USA all character names and book titles are public
           | domain anyway - but these can still be protected under
           | trademark (The name being public domain doesn't mean that
           | anyone can create derivative works though - these are still
           | protected).
           | 
           | For instance, the name "Mickey Mouse" is in the public domain
           | (i.e. someone can say it without it being licensed) while
           | stories about Mickey Mouse are still under copyright, and you
           | cannot use 'Mickey Mouse' in your own advertising or to sell
           | a product as it is still a trademark.
           | 
           | As another example, I can create the character "Dude The
           | Donkey", own the trademark "Dude The Donkey" and also write a
           | story about Dude The Donkey that I put into the public domain
           | (e.g. CC0), however the fact I have written a story and put
           | it into the public domain doesn't mean that someone else is
           | allowed to sell "Dude The Donkey" branded merchandise - as I
           | have a trademark on that.
           | 
           | (This is just my understanding, IANAL)
        
           | rbobby wrote:
           | Disney will be suing. I'm sure they already have worked out
           | an overall litigation strategy.
           | 
           | But... with 2 years left there's plenty of time for
           | legislation to be updated.
        
             | anjbe wrote:
             | Disney has options even if copyright legislation doesn't
             | change. For over a decade now, Disney has used clips of
             | _Steamboat Willie_ in their logo. Even after _Willie_ 's
             | copyright indisputably expires in 2024, they may attempt to
             | litigate under trademark law.
             | 
             | That kind of thing doesn't always work though. For example,
             | Lego has repeatedly attempted to trademark their brick
             | shape in various venues after the patents expired. Their
             | many resulting lawsuits against Mega Bloks have (to my
             | knowledge) been generally unsuccessful, because the
             | functional elements of an interlocking brick design turn
             | out not to be trademarkable.
        
           | bdowling wrote:
           | > Trademarks (usually) don't have such a broad application as
           | "this name X is forbidden for use everywhere forever and
           | ever".
           | 
           | Unlike copyrights or patents, trademark rights last for as
           | long as they are used continuously to identify a source of
           | goods or services. So, not quite forever and ever, but as
           | long as they are used continuously by the same source.
           | 
           | You're right that it will be fine to use the names of the
           | characters as long as you don't create a likelihood of
           | confusion with a senior user of the same or similar
           | trademark.
        
           | bryanrasmussen wrote:
           | >You will definitely be able to re-print and re-use the
           | original text, the original name and possibly the original
           | illustrations illustrations.
           | 
           | that's nice for anyone who wants to publish books I guess, or
           | for downloaders of Project Gutenberg material, but I don't
           | think that is really what people care for who argue about
           | copyright being too long etc.
           | 
           | I guess what people really want is something that is anyway
           | covered by fair use but people are afraid to do because big
           | corporate lawyers. But I guess if the characters are
           | trademarked you still have to worry about big corporate
           | lawyers.
           | 
           | Anyway, Pooh is only copyright free in US, still under
           | copyright in UK - unsure if copyright free in EU, assume not.
        
             | pmontra wrote:
             | EU: 2026 if this post is right
             | 
             | https://publicdomaincharacters.tumblr.com/post/660184235411
             | 4...
        
       | slickdork wrote:
       | So who here is gonna be the one to write Zombie the Pooh?
        
         | divbzero wrote:
         | Well, we do already have _The Tao of Pooh_ [1].
         | 
         | [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tao_of_Pooh
        
           | jhbadger wrote:
           | And earlier, the Pooh Perplex from 1963. It's a series of
           | satirical interpretations of Winnie the Pooh from various
           | perspectives -- Freudian, Marxist, etc.
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pooh_Perplex
        
       ___________________________________________________________________
       (page generated 2022-01-01 23:03 UTC)