[HN Gopher] List of games that Buddha would not play
___________________________________________________________________
List of games that Buddha would not play
Author : zdw
Score : 125 points
Date : 2021-12-30 22:10 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (en.wikipedia.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (en.wikipedia.org)
| drpgq wrote:
| Looks like Jenga is out.
| ModernMech wrote:
| Here's a comic of Buddha playing Jenga with other philosophers:
| https://existentialcomics.com/comic/226
|
| Also Sorry!: https://existentialcomics.com/comic/102
| UnpossibleJim wrote:
| Dude! If there ain't no Jenga in Nirvana, then there ain't no
| me in Nirvana!
| slater wrote:
| No video games though. Phew! :D
| simplicio wrote:
| Though "no toy bows" would arguably include a bunch of popular
| video-games. No Skyrim, for example
| kgwxd wrote:
| "Ball games" no Rocket League. It's the only form of
| meditation I practice and I'm sure as hell not going to main
| Snow Day. I'm going to ignore Buddha on this one.
| pdw wrote:
| Curiously, toy swords are OK. Also no objection to dolls or
| action figures. So Star Wars fans can continue to enjoy their
| light sabers.
| kortex wrote:
| I'm thinking he would be a fan of Get over it with Bennett
| Foddy. It's effectively deterministic with respect to user
| input (no "rolling dice" rng, just physics). No game board, you
| aren't physically stepping. Just you and the obstacle course.
| drclau wrote:
| Not so fast!
|
| 2. The same games played on _imaginary_ boards. [...]
| crazysim wrote:
| I'm pretty sure my Xbox has a PCB in it.
| Hamuko wrote:
| Probably depends on whether or not RNG counts as a "game of
| throwing dice".
| satisfice wrote:
| I am glad that the Buddha said nothing against Sniper Elite 4.
| dang wrote:
| One past thread:
|
| _List of games that Buddha would not play_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24136469 - Aug 2020 (9
| comments)
| actually_a_dog wrote:
| Some specific games the Buddha would not play: chess, D&D, 20
| questions.
| DaveSapien wrote:
| Wow, I haven't seen this before, Some interesting things here.
|
| I wonder what he would make of VideoGames...well points 5 through
| 12 some up a good chunk of video games. But I wonder about more
| indie/experimental games?
|
| Particularly 'Zen' or wellness games, as the "cause for
| negligence" rang a bell for me. What if a game is more of an aid,
| or inspirational story, or other uplifting experience?
|
| I'm making one right now, so this is a great list to have come
| across. My game is an abstraction of the Zen calligraphy practice
| of Enso, where every day you paint an uninhibited ink circle on a
| blank sheet of paper.
|
| I spent some time breaking down what the daily discipline was for
| me, and then translate these elements into a game. Theres a lot
| more to it than that but that's the (very) basic starting point.
| As I'm nearing release I can see there are definite places it
| falls short. Though I started with the intent of it NOT being a
| "cause for negligence", hopefully my intent shines through.
| philosopher1234 wrote:
| This is almost certainly superstitious and neurotic, not wise.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Interesting topic, I just flew into SFO this week and there was a
| 7 year old boy playing on his iPad.
|
| He was mostly chain-sawing prostitutes the whole time...
| digsmahler wrote:
| Enlightened people, very boring at parties.
| crawfordcomeaux wrote:
| Mindfully sitting with and finding value in whatever I'm
| judging as boring has led me to enjoy what I'm experiencing.
| You're the one boring yourself.
| mxmilkiib wrote:
| Ajahn Brahm of BSWA is a right laugh. An Aussie from England,
| the story goes that went to all Buddhist temples in London
| until they found the happiest bunch of monastics (Thai forest,
| eventually under Ajahn Chah).
|
| Fresh NYE stream; https://youtu.be/b4Sqj4h4Jds
|
| Ajahn Sujato, who works on Sutta Central, is under them in the
| same lineage.
| dqpb wrote:
| Interesting. So the Buddha was a micro-managing prick, just like
| everyone else.
| dlsa wrote:
| Yet, there's no explanation of _why_ Buddha would not play these
| games. Seems like an important omission.
| awb wrote:
| 1st sentence:
|
| > The Buddhist games list is a list of games that Gautama
| Buddha is reputed to have said that he would not play and that
| his disciples should likewise not play, because he believed
| them to be a 'cause for negligence'.
| dlsa wrote:
| And what exactly does that mean? No exploration of that in
| the article or any particular exploration for each game. Its
| a list after all. How does that apply to 8x8 but not a 9x9
| board game?
|
| I'd expect a passing comment about it at least. A paragraph.
| awb wrote:
| Reminded me that there's a movie on Netflix about Baggio, a
| famous soccer / football player from Italy who was proudly
| Buddhist. Yet "Ball sports" are on the list of games not to be
| played by disciples of Buddhism.
|
| I've only seen praise for Baggio around his faith. I'm curious
| how deeply held these beliefs are around games and if anyone in
| the Buddhist community ever approached Baggio about it.
| guerrilla wrote:
| As with everything in Buddhism, it's important to double check
| the philology on this (if anyone has done that specific work yet)
| because as with many other things a lot of it was added later for
| various reasons. Not wise to assume we're talking about the
| historical Buddha here rather than the character Buddha without
| verifying that.
| [deleted]
| kragen wrote:
| Some of the context for one version of this list from the
| Samannaphala Sutta (DN 2)
| https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN02.html:
|
| "Whereas some contemplatives & brahmans, living off food given in
| faith, remain addicted to damaging seed and plant life such as
| these--plants propagated from roots, stems, joints, buddings, and
| seeds--he abstains from damaging seed and plant life such as
| these. This, too, is part of his virtue.
|
| "Whereas some contemplatives & brahmans, living off food given in
| faith, remain addicted to consuming stored-up goods such as these
| --stored-up food, stored-up drinks, stored-up clothing, stored-up
| vehicles, stored-up bedding, stored-up scents, and stored-up meat
| --he abstains from consuming stored-up goods such as these. This,
| too, is part of his virtue.
|
| "Whereas some contemplatives & brahmans, living off food given in
| faith, remain addicted to watching shows such as these--dancing,
| singing, instrumental music, plays, ballad recitations, hand-
| clapping, cymbals and drums, magic-lantern scenes, acrobatic and
| conjuring tricks, elephant fights, horse fights, buffalo fights,
| bull fights, goat fights, ram fights, cock fights, quail fights;
| fighting with staves, boxing, wrestling, war-games, roll calls,
| battle arrays, and regimental reviews--he abstains from watching
| shows such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.
|
| "Whereas some contemplatives & brahmans, living off food given in
| faith, remain addicted to heedless and idle games such as these--
| eight-row chess, ten-row chess, chess in the air, hopscotch,
| spillikins, dice, stick games, hand-pictures, ball-games, blowing
| through toy pipes, playing with toy plows, turning somersaults,
| playing with toy windmills, toy measures, toy chariots, toy bows,
| guessing letters drawn in the air, guessing thoughts, mimicking
| deformities--he abstains from heedless and idle games such as
| these. This, too, is part of his virtue.
|
| "Whereas some contemplatives & brahmans, living off food given in
| faith, remain addicted to high and luxurious furnishings such as
| these--over-sized couches, couches adorned with carved animals,
| long-haired coverlets, multi-colored patchwork coverlets, white
| woolen coverlets, woolen coverlets embroidered with flowers or
| animal figures, stuffed quilts, coverlets with fringe, silk
| coverlets embroidered with gems; large woolen carpets; elephant,
| horse, and chariot rugs, antelope-hide rugs, deer-hide rugs;
| couches with canopies, couches with red cushions for the head and
| feet--he abstains from using high and luxurious furnishings such
| as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.
|
| "Whereas some contemplatives & brahmans, living off food given in
| faith, remain addicted to scents, cosmetics, and means of
| beautification such as these--rubbing powders into the body,
| massaging with oils, bathing in perfumed water, kneading the
| limbs, using mirrors, ointments, garlands, scents, creams, face-
| powders, mascara, bracelets, head-bands, decorated walking
| sticks, ornamented water-bottles, swords, fancy sunshades,
| decorated sandals, turbans, gems, yak-tail whisks, long-fringed
| white robes--he abstains from using scents, cosmetics, and means
| of beautification such as these. This, too, is part of his
| virtue.
|
| "Whereas some contemplatives & brahmans, living off food given in
| faith, remain addicted to talking about lowly topics such as
| these--talking about kings, robbers, ministers of state; armies,
| alarms, and battles; food and drink; clothing, furniture,
| garlands, and scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns,
| cities, the countryside; women and heroes; the gossip of the
| street and the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity
| [philosophical discussions of the past and future], the creation
| of the world and of the sea, and talk of whether things exist or
| not--he abstains from talking about lowly topics such as these.
| This, too, is part of his virtue.
|
| "Whereas some contemplatives & brahmans, living off food given in
| faith, remain addicted to debates such as these--'You understand
| this doctrine and discipline? I'm the one who understands this
| doctrine and discipline. How could you understand this doctrine
| and discipline? You're practicing wrongly. I'm practicing
| rightly. I'm being consistent. You're not. What should be said
| first you said last. What should be said last you said first.
| What you took so long to think out has been refuted. Your
| doctrine has been overthrown. You're defeated. Go and try to
| salvage your doctrine; extricate yourself if you can!'--he
| abstains from debates such as these. This, too, is part of his
| virtue.
|
| "Whereas some contemplatives & brahmans, living off food given in
| faith, remain addicted to running messages & errands for people
| such as these--kings, ministers of state, noble warriors,
| brahmans, householders, or youths (who say), 'Go here, go there,
| take this there, fetch that here'--he abstains from running
| messages & errands for people such as these. This, too, is part
| of his virtue.
|
| "Whereas some contemplatives & brahmans, living off food given in
| faith, engage in scheming, persuading, hinting, belittling, &
| pursuing gain with gain, he abstains from forms of scheming &
| persuading [improper ways of trying to gain material support from
| donors] such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue."
| xavriley wrote:
| Thank you for posting this. I feel like it gives a better
| context. My interpretation is that the focus is on monks (as
| opposed to lay people) in that they might be preaching about
| their virtues while continuing to have vices and earthly
| desires. This makes sense in a religion in that you'd want your
| monks to strive for something like "ideal" behaviour (even if
| it's not reachable) otherwise what is the point of a monk?
|
| Stating it as a list of facts (as in the OP) seems akin to
| literal interpretations of the bible where the world was
| created 4000 years ago etc. A more reasonable view would be to
| take the message in context. I don't think Buddha had anything
| against laypeople playing chess
| andybak wrote:
| Oddly enough I've been pondering the connection between Buddhism
| and games for a while now. The concept of "incremental games" and
| their fundemental pointlessness of the achievements therein
| brought to mind my layman's understanding of Buddhist teachings
| about attachment and loss.
|
| Also - the presence in a various Buddhist traditions of
| "pointless tasks done with mindfulness" made me wonder where the
| line was between "pointless but beneficial" and "pointless and
| harmful". I tried to engage a Buddhist friend in this discussion
| but was hampered by my lack of knowledge about Buddhism itself
| and the partly-formed concepts I was struggling to give some
| shape to.
| mxmilkiib wrote:
| A question worth asking on https://discourse.suttacentral.net
| if it hasn't already.
|
| https://suttacentral.net for the best way to access the Suttas
| imo, can function as an offline PWA.
| Moodles wrote:
| I recently somehow fell into a YouTube rabbit hole where this
| guy was speedrunning Spyro on PS1. It's a game I used to play
| as a kid about a purple dragon. Spyro collects gems and kills
| enemies. It's pretty fun. I thought it was incredibly pointless
| to keep speedrunning it day after day, but these two guys were
| talking in the video about how other games are just cheap
| thrills, but to them, Spyro meant something more: to strive to
| be better, to better themselves in life, etc. It got pretty
| deep. And they were really enjoying themselves. Sometimes
| frustrated, but often laughing or elated at new times. So
| positive. Then I realised that if heat death of the universe is
| our ultimate destiny (and certainly our own death before that),
| then life really is all about the journey anyway and I suppose
| nothing is really more meaningful than anything else. I don't
| believe in god but I feel if god did exist, it would want us to
| enjoy our journey and be kind to other people.
| javajosh wrote:
| _> heat death of the universe is our ultimate destiny_
|
| We have bigger and more urgent and realistic fish to fry
| before worrying about heat death. Insofar as you care about
| the health and well-being of humanity as a whole, and the
| biosphere in which we are embedded, then you cannot let
| yourself zoom out so far in ethical concerns, or else you
| become effectively antisocial.
|
| We have nested problems at the global, national, and local
| level that all need attention. But of course it is relatively
| easy to get to the bleeding edge of Spyro speed-running than
| it is to get to the bleeding edge of solving real-world
| problems that have faced humanity, in one form or another,
| for thousands of years.
|
| Life is partly about the journey, but if a side effect of
| your life is to chew up the biosphere to make cool new toys
| and experiences for you, then yes, I think you're better off
| taking up Spyro. Even better, though, if you recognize a
| challenge that some larger group faces, and apply yourself to
| solving that, at least part time.
| stareblinkstare wrote:
| > but if a side effect of your life is to chew up the
| biosphere
|
| The biosphere will be chewed up with or without human
| activities.
| javajosh wrote:
| What do you mean? The expansion of the sun, or a meteor
| strike, or a caldera explosion, something like that?
| Well, yes of course those are all likely on some large
| time scale, but they are entirely out of our control.
| Meanwhile we have every likelihood of having a 1M year
| existence, as a species embedded in a biosphere, if we
| can "get on the same page" with respect to our behavior.
| I propose that we adopt the universal rule that we all
| act "consistent with our survival, and that of our
| species" in an exact analogue to Issac Asimov's Zeroeth
| law of robotics. It is a small jump from that to the
| protection of the biosphere in general, if you are
| willing to ignore the strong emotional pull of science
| fantasy narratives that imply that we can survive without
| it.
| defterGoose wrote:
| There's just absolutely no evidence to support this
| statement. We don't know enough about meta/xeno-biology
| to say that life isnt a self-sustaining phenomenon in a
| thermodynamic sense. It may be that human-like
| "intelligence" is actually an emergent phenomenon, not
| unlike cancer, that has the potential to disrupt an
| otherwise homeostatic set of processes.
| stareblinkstare wrote:
| >There's just absolutely no evidence to support this
| statement.
|
| I was expecting this trite nonsense of a reply on HN.
| Refer to the sibling commenters.
| __MatrixMan__ wrote:
| I think he was referring to the eventual expansion of our
| star such that our orbit is smaller than its diameter. Of
| course that's no excuse to be a jerk in the meantime.
| cortesoft wrote:
| Well, our sun will eventually explode, which will
| certainly chew up the biosphere.
| goatlover wrote:
| The sun will make Earth uninhabitable in a billion years,
| give or take several hundred million, and depending on
| how long extremophiles can hold on.
| slx26 wrote:
| "Meaning" is a human concept, and only humans can fill its
| definition. It's also an individual concept, so everyone has
| the right to write its own definition. So indeed, as long as
| you have any desire(s), you can walk a path towards them. Any
| desire is fine if it's fine to you.
|
| There's one commonality though: we kinda have to align with
| other humans. Maybe you would be able to be happy meditating
| alone... but if there are others around you who find what you
| do weird and criticize you, meditating alone itself becomes
| harder as you will have to additionally be able to remain
| unaffected by the criticism you receive. In the other side of
| the spectrum, if what you do is enjoyed by many other people,
| you will more easily feel reassured that it's a good
| investment and that it makes sense to do it. Plus you will be
| more likely to connect with other people, which is like, the
| main desire for most people: no better way to feel that your
| life is meaningful than having others tell you that you mean
| a lot to them. And we kinda keep rolling in that loop.
|
| So those guys have found each other and Spyro will have
| enough depth in some aspect that they can keep walking around
| it meaningfully (to them). It's all cool.
|
| As you also hint, putting some effort to make others suffer
| less is also an interesting idea: suffering is kinda at the
| opposite side of happiness and meaningfulness in life, so
| reducing that is also another way to increase positively the
| meaningfulness score.
|
| It's rather bizarre that we are so dependent on others to
| make a positive evaluation of our own meaningfulness. Like,
| it doesn't even compile in most languages.
|
| But maybe god is ok with circular dependencies. Let's ask in
| the next code review.
| bobthechef wrote:
| andybak wrote:
| > Then I realised that if heat death of the universe is our
| ultimate destiny (and certainly our own death before that),
| then life really is all about the journey anyway and I
| suppose nothing is really more meaningful than anything else.
|
| And yet, some activities leave me feeling empty and others
| feel like they were time well spent. Is that distinction a
| genuine insight, or just another socially imposed arbitrary
| judgement?
| Moodles wrote:
| I suppose everyone's journey is unique. It's just good to
| find your passion even if it is "pointless", because
| everything is "pointless".
| crawfordcomeaux wrote:
| Until you've learned to notice automated judgment and
| unlearned automatically running with it, it'll take more
| analysis to answer the question.
|
| You may have genuine needs being denied by the activities.
| You may have unacknowledged trauma patterns matching with
| some aspect of the activities. You may have socially
| conditioned judgments moving too fast for you to currently
| notice.
|
| Do you want a simple practice in noticing and unlearning
| such judgments?
| ssklash wrote:
| I'd be interested in hearing details on this practice.
| monissiddiqui wrote:
| Please share the practise of noticing and unlearning the
| judgments! Sounds intriguing.
| codr7 wrote:
| It's very simple, and yet difficult enough that most
| won't do it by free will. The ones that do are very
| likely to have tried all other options.
|
| Because it involves seeing things for what they are,
| changing perceptions, letting go, forgiving, facing
| pushed down trauma and all sorts of nasty, emotional
| stuff.
|
| But the method is as simple as it gets: remove all
| inputs, stay completely still, close your eyes, observe
| your body breathing all by itself, and wait, and have
| patience with yourself, it takes practice.
|
| It's very much like establishing a connection; the method
| will allow you to reach deeper from where you are right
| now, but with practice it becomes who you are. Self
| realization, or realizing who you really are; is a one
| way street, you can't go back. And it never ends, there's
| always more to discover.
|
| You can get glimpses using psychedelics but from my
| experience you still have to do the work to fill in the
| blanks if you really want to know the truth. Maybe the
| more shamanic ones like Ayahuasca, but I count that as
| doing pretty intense work.
| andi999 wrote:
| It is probably evolutionary imposed judgement. Probably the
| activities which left you empty neither increased what you
| think your status among society or close peer group is, nor
| did they help spreading your genes.
| asiachick wrote:
| I had friends who wouldn't play poker because the entire point is
| to learn to lie/deceive better than others.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| I wonder if they would be okay with poker variants where
| bluffing is less important like Chicago at a full table?
| devinmcafee wrote:
| This seems like an overly simplistic way of looking at poker,
| and I feel is not a fair judgement of the game. The game is not
| just about deception.
|
| To play poker (and win) you need many skills:
|
| - mastery over your own body, specifically the ability to
| restrain outward displays of emotion related to the hand you
| were dealt or the cards being drawn
|
| - the ability to calculate probabilities, because you have
| limited information and do not know the cards others have, you
| must assess the current situation and attempt to make decisions
| using a probabilistic model
|
| - budgeting resources. Your chips are a finite resource and
| wasting them or not betting enough will affect your future
| hands
|
| - psychology. You have to learn the way your opponents think.
| You learn their tells, behavior, and strategies, and have to
| practice empathy to determine their behavior in a given
| scenario
|
| That being said, its fine that your friends don't like the
| game, to each their own! I just personally don't think it's
| fair to view it through such a narrow lens.
|
| *Edited for formatting
| omarfarooq wrote:
| You have outstanding friends.
| testfoobar wrote:
| Perhaps to escape suffering, one must also escape joy?
| goatlover wrote:
| Is that desirable? Maybe joy makes the suffering worthwhile. At
| least for some of us. Maybe even most.
| hackingthelema wrote:
| I think it's more avoiding clinging to temporary joy. Have you
| met a person who seems to live in their glory days, clinging to
| the last time they were happy? Spending their entire life
| chasing after those first highs? I find it hard to describe
| people like this as anything but 'suffering'.
|
| I would also note that the meditative techniques of the Buddha
| eventually lead to an experience called the 'jhanas', which are
| pleasurable all on their own:
|
| > Directed thought, singleness of preoccupation, and evaluation
| act as the causes. When the causes are fully ripe, results will
| appear -- (d) rapture (piti), a compelling sense of fullness
| and refreshment for body and mind, going straight to the heart,
| independent of all else; (e) pleasure (sukha), physical ease
| arising from the body's being still and unperturbed (kaya-
| passaddhi); mental contentment arising from the mind's being at
| ease on its own, undistracted, unperturbed, serene, and
| exultant (citta-passaddhi).
|
| (https://accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html#jhana)
|
| There are plenty of joyful feelings in the path the Buddha set
| forth; spending time in meditation in these altered states of
| consciousness is part of the path, as I understand it. It's not
| all as austere as it may seem at first!
| roylez wrote:
| Imagine Buddha played a game and lost to his opponent. This would
| not happen.
|
| If you want to start your own religion, you would not allow this
| to happen.
| karmakurtisaani wrote:
| This is kind of a curious feature of all human hierarchies.
| Often times, people higher in the hierarchy will not
| participate in competition of any kind with the rest, since
| they have so little to win. On the other hand, making mistakes
| publicly can (and will) cast doubt in their abilities in
| general.
|
| In my company we sometimes have these fun pub quiz type
| activities. The higher-ups never participate.
| FarhadG wrote:
| Sorry for the naive question: but why would Buddha not play these
| games? I can't seem to find anything insightful for the
| rationale.
| awb wrote:
| 1st sentence:
|
| > The Buddhist games list is a list of games that Gautama
| Buddha is reputed to have said that he would not play and that
| his disciples should likewise not play, because he believed
| them to be a 'cause for negligence'.
|
| By "cause for negligence", I'm assuming that could mean that
| you might neglect your worldly / spiritual duties.
| rendall wrote:
| This reminds me so much of Jorge Luis Borges' _Celestial Emporium
| of Benevolent Knowledge_ that I wonder if he was inspired by this
| list. In it he lists 14 purported categories of animal:
|
| 1. those that belong to the Emperor, 2. embalmed ones, 3. those
| that are trained, 4. suckling pigs, 5. mermaids, 6. fabulous
| ones, 7. stray dogs, 8. those included in the present
| classification, 9. those that tremble as if they were mad, 10.
| innumerable ones, 11. those drawn with a very fine camelhair
| brush, 12. others, 13. those that have just broken a flower vase,
| 14. those that from a long way off look like flies.
| gverrilla wrote:
| Funny
| janosett wrote:
| This reveals a bit how the Buddha, like other religious leaders
| throughout history, sought to control the behavior of his
| followers and decide where they should derive their joy from.
|
| It feels like this sort of prescriptive thinker is exactly the
| type of person we should not listen to. Why should we think their
| moral compass / philosophy is better guided than our own? If a
| certain form of game is fun and not harming others, why not
| continue it?
|
| Edited: removing "self-important" description as it was
| unnecessarily negative to make my point
| kpmcc wrote:
| I think the Buddha would encourage you to test his
| prescriptions and see if they lead to less or more suffering.
| janosett wrote:
| I hope that's true :-)
|
| I don't have anything against the Buddha, but I don't like
| the moralization throughout history of different things that
| people enjoy -- e.g. games or certain types of books and
| visual art.
|
| This is happening today with video games to some extent.
| kragen wrote:
| > _I hope that's true :-)_
|
| Yes, in numerous places in the Tipitaka, especially
| including the sutta I quoted in my top-level comment,
| Shakyamuni expounded the doctrine that Buddhism can be
| tested empirically in this life, contrasting Buddhism with
| other meditative traditions that ask you to take them on
| faith and promise evidence after you die.
| scyzoryk_xyz wrote:
| To a religious leader a few hundred years back, a 'game' is
| something totally different from what you and I know as a
| game. For instance: if you're leading men, and for some
| reason they're getting drunk and 'gaming'
| (hazard/dice/whatever) between each other, then that
| probably might be leading to real internal strife,
| conflict, violence, desperation etc. It would make sense in
| that reality, for a leader to subscribe and to propagate
| teachings/philosophies/doctrines which cut off that
| possibility.
|
| It's not something I 'like' much either, but it's super
| interesting to think about why various things were 'banned'
| (or encouraged!) in different historical realities. These
| things weren't done by stupid people for stupid reasons.
|
| The video/computer games we have today frequently serve as
| literature: a source of wisdom, means of companionship,
| educational simulations of reality. They're a powerful form
| of art/influence, and we're already seeing some
| authoritarian states ban or prohibit them.
| enaaem wrote:
| Video games nowadays are also really good at hacking
| people's dopamine system. Trying to entice people to
| spend as much time and money as possible. The most
| important thing is self awareness. Know what a game is
| doing to you and decide if that is beneficial.
| manachar wrote:
| Moralization, as you put it is a fundamental question most
| humans have at some point.
|
| Is this thing/activity/etc good/bad/neutral?
|
| Additionally, any group of people basically ask the same
| question with the added problem of should we allow it in
| our group.
|
| Few people have a problem with individuals and society
| moralizing about murder.
|
| However, as you note, throughout history there's clearly
| been a tendency for this moralizing to become weaponized as
| control mechanisms for hierarchal power. In essence, "good"
| becomes defined as "does nothing to upset the powerful".
|
| Video games get modern hate for two basic reasons. 1)
| They're new/different 2) They encourage people to spend
| time in ways that don't directly support and sometimes
| directly challenges the current paradigm.
|
| The biggest complaint is that they're a waste of time, but
| honestly I think most of the ire is that they're just not
| as profitable. For example, TV used to be fairly negatively
| seen, but as they became a key part of maintaining our
| consumer society (via ads), complaints for them went down.
| As video games become more revenue focused, it seems
| complaints for them are lowering.
|
| On the reverse side, I think humans could use more
| moralizing. Not the pearl clutching way, but a more
| steadfast dedication and education in good ethical systems.
| Of course, the trick is determining what a good ethical
| system is.
| qntty wrote:
| This isn't aimed at all of his followers (monastic and lay),
| just at the monks. Here's the quote from Brahmajala Sutta:
|
| > "Or he might say: "Whereas some honourable recluses and
| brahmins, while living on food offered by the faithful, indulge
| in the following games that are a basis for negligence: [...]
|
| In other words, if you've giving up everything you own to live
| as a monk and only eat because of the generosity of others, you
| shouldn't waste time with things that aren't useful for
| spiritual development. If you're a layperson, do what you want.
|
| Based on the surrounding context of the quote, it seems like
| this is an elaboration of the 7th of the 8 precepts, which also
| prohibits other forms of entertainment. The 8 precepts are
| followed by monks and occasionally by lay people during periods
| of intense practice like retreats, but during daily life, lay
| people follow the 5 precepts which don't prohibit
| entertainment.
| hackingthelema wrote:
| > If a certain form of game is fun and not harming others, why
| not continue it?
|
| In Buddhist terms (as I understand them), even if something is
| fun, it is transient. Impermanent. Eventually you'll beat the
| game, or it will end, and what are you left with? A replay? A
| new game? It only results in craving more and more -- more
| games, more things.
|
| The Buddha would, I think, argue that this sort of 'clinging'
| is a form of suffering. Without those things, sitting alone in
| a room with your eyes closed and only your own self for
| company, how do you feel? Do you feel comfortable with your
| self -- knowing who you are and your place in the universe?
|
| I think the Buddha would argue a self-sufficient happiness, as
| his system teaches you to realise, is more sustainable, since
| it is not based in any particular 'thing' (like games), but
| instead in an understanding of yourself and your place in the
| universe.
|
| (NB: Not a Buddhist.)
| mping wrote:
| To me, it's just a spiritual leader advising his followers (I
| would venture mostly monks) that if they want to reach
| enlightenment, they should not be fooling around with games.
| The Buddha knew ordinary people minds, so his compass was
| better guided - assuming that you buy into the Buddhist
| premise, he knew how to put an end to our suffering.
|
| Besides, Buddhism has many many facets, the teachings vary and
| may seem to contradict to the untrained eye, so don't read too
| much into it.
| kragen wrote:
| > _Why should we think their moral compass /philosophy is
| better guided than our own? If a certain form of game is fun
| and not harming others, why not continue it?_
|
| Well, it might _be_ better guided than our own; certainly old
| Shakyamuni made that claim on thousands of occasions, and a lot
| of people are reported to have agreed with him about it. I have
| found that sometimes I learn things by listening to other
| people, or trying things they recommend, because sometimes they
| know things I do not.
|
| With respect to not harming others, Shakyamuni did spend a lot
| of time talking about how it's very important to not harm
| others (sometimes to an extreme unmatched even by the Jains),
| but Buddhists believe that not harming others is the
| _beginning_ of virtue, not its highest expression.
|
| (I'm no expert on Buddhism -- I think I haven't even reached
| the first jhana, though I've had some vaguely similar
| experiences -- but I've read enough of the Tipitaka that I'm
| pretty confident that I'm faithfully representing what it says
| in this case.)
| mtalantikite wrote:
| Also Buddha: "That is why you should not get caught in the idea
| that this is the Dharma or that is not the Dharma. This is the
| hidden meaning when the Tathagata says, 'Bhikshus, you should
| know that the Dharma that I teach is like a raft.' You should
| let go of the Dharma, let alone what is not the Dharma."" [1]
|
| Depending on where you are on the path and what your practice
| is, it probably makes sense to avoid game playing. For others,
| maybe not. Buddhist teaching invites you to sit and investigate
| on your own.
|
| [1] https://plumvillage.org/library/sutras/the-diamond-that-
| cuts...
| philtar wrote:
| I don't think the world Self-Important means what you think it
| means. While I'm not religious, these are thinkers whose works
| are probably the longest surviving works of thought. This is
| just being facetious.
| janosett wrote:
| Imagine you think video games are a waste of time, or that a
| certain food type shouldn't be eaten because it's unhealthy
| or unclean.
|
| Those are fine opinions to hold personally, but obviously
| many people may disagree. The self-importance I meant is when
| you think your opinions are more important than those of
| others and try to control their behavior.
|
| FWIW-- I've since edited the post because I think that
| wording makes it seem unnecessarily negative on my part.
| andybak wrote:
| Some people are more perceptive or knowledgable than
| others. Not all opinions are equal. You can't easily
| dismiss the idea that one can learn from others.
|
| I don't dispute the existence of "false teachers" or the
| harm done by fossilized belief systems but your argument
| doesn't convince me that there's not a baby being tossed
| out with that bathwater.
|
| Also - many esoteric or philosophical traditions engage
| with exactly this problem - the tension between the need
| for a teacher and the fact that many insights can only be
| arrived at through personal experience. This dichotomy is a
| huge part of the millenia old debate on such matters.
| monktastic1 wrote:
| This is a bit like saying: don't trust cardiologists. They tell
| you what you should and should not eat. If a certain food is
| tasty and not harming others, why not eat it?
|
| Presumably you only listen to their advice if you trust that
| they're seeing something you're not (yet). It's not "seeking to
| control," it's advising.
| ewzimm wrote:
| There's an order of importance to teachings, and this one falls
| somewhere below letting go of attachments to rules. Buddhism
| teaches the importance of avoiding getting caught up with
| either opinions or rituals for their own sake. Any prescriptive
| thinking loses its usefulness when it becomes an end rather
| than a means of reaching liberation.
|
| On the other hand, thinking that there's a better moral
| philosophy than whatever ideas we currently have is highly
| encouraged, unless one is a Buddha. If we have already reached
| the peak of morality, there's no reason to look to the
| teachings of others, but if we feel that we still have room for
| improvement, it's worth looking into the teachings of others
| who demonstrate wisdom.
| tartoran wrote:
| Would Buddha play Mahjong? How about Go or Chess?
| pdw wrote:
| Chess is played on a board of 8 rows, so that's out.
| Trasmatta wrote:
| Do modern Buddhists follow these guidelines? Is there an
| equivalent to pharisaism in Buddhism, where there's a strict
| adherence to rules and regulations, while completely missing the
| original intent?
| im3w1l wrote:
| He didn't say "all games". He made a very detailed list. It makes
| me wonder: Are there any notable absences?
| tintor wrote:
| Ball games? Why? This covers many sports.
| heikkilevanto wrote:
| Indeed - I don't mind Buddha not playing them, and I don't mind
| other mere mortals playing them. But I do mind people taking it
| for granted that I should have any interest in such waste of
| time!
| kpmcc wrote:
| I'd like to see a list of games the Buddha would play, as I don't
| think it would contain anything unless the game somehow pertained
| to discernment of the nature of suffering or the extinction of
| the cycle of rebirth.
| zyemuzu wrote:
| I'm playing Returnal at the moment and I'm sure Buddha would
| have found it pretty rad.
| saargrin wrote:
| so Dark Souls basically
| Trasmatta wrote:
| Yeah, that's the first one that came to mind. Sekiro as well,
| which explicitly has Buddhist themes and imagery too. I
| wouldn't say it's specifically a Buddhist game, but it
| absolutely has the themes of life, rebirth, and suffering.
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| Outer Wilds sounds kinda close actually. With the new DLC I
| think it might be the best game I've ever played.
| ycombinete wrote:
| I cannot play it for longer than 10 minutes without feeling
| motion sickness
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| That's a shame. You could try playing it in a smaller
| window or on a smaller TV I suppose.
| rendall wrote:
| Or VR. Just, immersion therapy.
| rpdillon wrote:
| Outer Wilds is a gem! Very much looking forward to release on
| Switch, though it seems to have been delayed, since it was
| supposed to have been released this month. Haven't played the
| DLC, but I'm looking forward to it sometime in 2022!
| mumblemumble wrote:
| Sounds like Monopoly to me.
| actually_a_dog wrote:
| Monopoly is essentially a stationary Markov process.
| Decisions are so simple and clear that they essentially don't
| matter to this characterization. I doubt the Buddha would
| find much of the nature of suffering in what is essentially a
| deterministic mathematical process. Any suffering created by
| playing Monopoly is really coming from within the players
| themselves. But, we can say that about most suffering, so
| there is no reason to play Monopoly to begin with, if all you
| desire is to know the nature of suffering....
| nabla9 wrote:
| Those would be games you play with your mind in deep
| concentration. In Buddhism deep concentration is tool not a
| goal itself. The bliss you get from deep concentration was the
| only distraction that can be beneficial. Doing some specific
| exercises is sometimes called as "games".
|
| Any flow state you can get into with games is not very
| interesting compared to fiddling with your own mind.
| shard wrote:
| Number 2 on the list would seem to contradict that.
| selfhifive wrote:
| I'm tempted to think that Buddha made some rules just to
| challenge his disciples and see if they actually understood the
| message. Like the Zen monks who love messing with their students.
| Except some knobhead took it seriously and remembered it and his
| disciples then codified it.
| cirrus3 wrote:
| Covered in a podcast hosted by Ken Jennings and John Roderick
|
| https://www.omnibusproject.com/378
|
| > About this Episode > In which a great spiritual leader lists
| all the kinds of dice and pick-up sticks and toy windmills that
| are off-limits to the enlightened, and Ken wants to lick a
| tetherball pole. Certificate #25968.
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