[HN Gopher] GCC: The customer has nuclear weapons. They do not d...
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       GCC: The customer has nuclear weapons. They do not do "bounty"
        
       Author : scblzn
       Score  : 211 points
       Date   : 2021-12-29 17:54 UTC (5 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (gcc.gnu.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (gcc.gnu.org)
        
       | sgt101 wrote:
       | PS50k and I'll do it today!
        
       | xyst wrote:
       | This is open source software with access to the source code. Why
       | not just submit a patch on your own? Just bill the customer with
       | "nuclear weapons" for time spent contributing to OSS. Contractor
       | gets paid. Client gets working software. OSS community gets a
       | patch.
       | 
       | Is it incompetence? Is it laziness? Is it bad management? Is it
       | all of the above?
       | 
       | Personally, I would love to get paid to work on OSS on behalf of
       | X company. Much better than re-inventing the wheel, plus with the
       | added benefit of learning something new.
        
       | qzw wrote:
       | If the customer has nuclear weapons, then the customer has
       | magnitudes more money in their couch cushions than would be
       | required to pay to have this functionality implemented. For that
       | matter, they're probably paying Bill Long's employer some
       | significant chunk of change, and it would be easy for them to
       | offer to pay for this functionality. But it's free/oss software,
       | so let's just keep bugging the maintainers instead.
        
         | mhh__ wrote:
         | I wouldn't because I know better but if I'm reading the tone of
         | the comment correctly I would seriously consider responding
         | "you have nuclear weapons? Great. Fuck off". Again, don't say
         | that, but you're right that they should either bounty it or do
         | the damn patch themselves.
        
           | qzw wrote:
           | But then the customer might get MAD...
           | 
           | Sorry, couldn't resist.
        
             | tejtm wrote:
             | I might as well go down with you suggesting they put on a
             | bake sale.
        
         | drjasonharrison wrote:
         | I think Bill Long needs to be added to
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Long
         | 
         | Done.
        
           | rat9988 wrote:
           | Why would you do such a lowly thing?
        
           | layer8 wrote:
           | And already undone due to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip
           | edia:Manual_of_Style/Disa... .
        
         | ridethebike wrote:
         | In practice it's also very likely that customer mind boggling
         | amount of bureaucracy, allocating extra penny might require
         | approval from several committees.
        
           | hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
           | Usually most customers, even government, have different
           | thresholds, where something under, say, $25k takes very few
           | levels of management approval.
        
             | actually_a_dog wrote:
             | I recall buying $50-60k worth of hardware at one of my
             | previous employers, with only 2 signatures required, both
             | of which I was able to obtain within the space of an
             | afternoon.
        
               | colejohnson66 wrote:
               | Was that employer working with the government? Government
               | contracts are notorious for bureaucracy and bean
               | countering.
        
               | numbsafari wrote:
               | I've made proposals to state universities for $20k
               | software projects that required a vote in the state
               | legislature for approval.
               | 
               | Moved on to other projects until after the next
               | legislative session, and the period after where the
               | bureaucracy makes it all happen, then we actually
               | scheduled a start date that was 3 months later, since
               | that was how long it took to get all the resources back
               | from other projects.
               | 
               | Government isn't run like a household, nor like a
               | business, nor should it be.
        
             | sgt101 wrote:
             | For timescales of ~6mths (depending on where you are in the
             | year) yes, for right now outside our budget... possibly
             | not.
        
               | CorrectHorseBat wrote:
               | This bug has been open for 1.5 years now though
        
             | [deleted]
        
           | vkou wrote:
           | In that case, it sucks to be the customer.
        
           | talideon wrote:
           | That's Cray's problem. They're getting money from this
           | customer, and they should be the ones ponying up the money
           | from that contract to cover the development of the feature.
        
           | danShumway wrote:
           | That's Cray/HPE's problem then. And if they can't fund
           | bugfixes, maybe they shouldn't be in the business providing
           | support for operations that handle _nuclear weapons_. And if
           | their client can 't allocate funds to keep the software they
           | use secure, maybe they _also_ shouldn 't be working with
           | nuclear weapons.
           | 
           | We keep coming up with excuses for why companies can't give
           | Open Source projects money, and they all seem to boil down
           | to: "companies are systemically unable to make secure/stable
           | products, can't adapt to emergencies or pay for fixes even
           | when it's the obviously most efficient way to get the fixes
           | in, and because of that these companies shouldn't be in
           | charge of anything dangerous or important."
           | 
           | Which is maybe not the conclusion those companies would want
           | us to draw, but it seems to be what they're suggesting
           | whenever they hide behind crippling bureaucracy like that
           | somehow makes the situation better instead of worse. It's
           | really irresponsible for Cray/HPE to take on a paid contract
           | like this if they can't handle the job requirements.
        
           | KennyBlanken wrote:
           | What's more likely is that HPE/Cray have so much padding in
           | the contract that paying someone $200/hour to implement the
           | function and appropriate tests and it would be a rounding
           | error on the contract.
           | 
           | I think they _would_ do that, except Mr. Master Engineer with
           | 25 years FORTRAN experience and 20 years as a principal
           | member of a FORTRAN committee would have to explain to his
           | employers why he can 't handle this himself.
           | 
           | Either that or he sold himself to HPE as being able to throw
           | his weight around because of his committee membership ("hire
           | me and you'll get what you want from FORTRAN"), and we're
           | seeing narcissistic entitlement when it turns out that's not
           | the case and now his job is at risk.
        
       | throwaway984393 wrote:
       | They should change bug priority to "low", add a label _cheap-
       | bastards_ , and go on with their day.
        
       | frays wrote:
       | Fascinating thread. Thanks HN.
        
       | somehnguy wrote:
       | In my opinion that should have been an instant close of the
       | issue. If the customer has the type of money to have a nuclear
       | weapons program then surely they have the money to pay for the
       | software they're relying on. Or maybe since they're apparently
       | paying Bill to handle the software - Bill should take issues he
       | has into his own hands and fix it himself. Sheesh.
        
       | cozzyd wrote:
       | I suppose threatening to strike GCC developers with nukes might
       | be more effective than bounties, but it also seems like a lot
       | more expensive to carry out.
        
         | rurban wrote:
         | Not GCC, just gfortran. No support for f2018 yet.
         | 
         | GCC itself also doesn't have full support for c11 yet. Which
         | was 7 years earlier. So they seem to have other priorities than
         | fulfilling standards
        
           | btdmaster wrote:
           | What is missing from full C11 support? I couldn't find any
           | documentation on this other than C11Status[1] which looks
           | fine.
           | 
           | [1] https://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/C11Status
        
             | jlarocco wrote:
             | I don't know, but this more in-depth status page punts with
             | "Library feature, no compiler support required", quite a
             | bit: https://gcc.gnu.org/c99status.html
             | 
             | I can't find a similar page for glibc, so maybe the issue
             | is there?
        
           | cozzyd wrote:
           | Sure, but gfortran is part of the GNU Compiler Collection :)
           | And I think there is C11 support other than optional parts?
           | https://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/C11Status
        
           | turminal wrote:
           | > GCC itself also doesn't have full support for c11 yet.
           | 
           | Neither do other, much better funded compilers, to be fair.
        
             | Someone wrote:
             | Are there _much_ better funded compilers? I don't think we
             | know much about how much funding the various compilers get.
             | 
             | Apple/Intel/Microsoft may have lots of money, but that
             | doesn't mean their C compiler teams get much funding.
             | 
             | I hear people say Apple's work on clang is limited to their
             | needs, and those may not involve getting full C11 support.
             | 
             | Microsoft also may not need full C11 support for their
             | internal use. That can make getting that a low or zero
             | priority task.
             | 
             | Intel recently moved their backend to LLVM. That doesn't
             | give me confidence they're investing heavily there.
             | 
             | Now, gcc technically is volunteer work, but lots of
             | development is done by people paid to do that by their
             | employers.
        
               | worik wrote:
               | Apple clearly does not fund any developer tools properly.
               | 
               | I am developing software for iOS and the tooling is very
               | bad.
               | 
               | It sure looks good. Nice colours.
        
       | zozbot234 wrote:
       | Clearly, GCC needs a new GPL licensing exception: "You
       | acknowledge that the Program is not designed or intended for use
       | in the design, construction, operation or maintenance of any
       | nuclear facility." If Java does it...
        
         | chrsig wrote:
         | GNU generally considers those types of clauses in opposition to
         | libre software[0]
         | 
         | [0] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#JSON
        
           | jahewson wrote:
           | As phrased in the parent comment it's a disclaimer, not a
           | restriction. So it's acceptable but carries no weight.
        
         | biryani_chicken wrote:
         | That would stop the GPL from being a FLOSS license, which would
         | be against the philosophy of its authors.
        
           | zozbot234 wrote:
           | Nope, it wouldn't. It's already implied by the general
           | disclaimer of warranty in existing FLOSS licenses; adding
           | that express provision would merely bring some much-needed
           | clarity.
        
             | marcodiego wrote:
             | That clause would hurt freedom 0: the freedom to user the
             | software for whatever you want.
        
               | zozbot234 wrote:
               | How so? "You acknowledge that X is not designed or
               | intended for use in Y" is not a _restriction_ on using X
               | for Y: it 's just telling you in no uncertain terms that
               | the developers of X will not be helping you with any
               | issues if it turns out you _are_ using it for Y. This
               | looks like the exact situation that OP is in, and that
               | the Java provision is designed to guard against.
        
         | Jach wrote:
         | Seems useless given the existing clauses with the disclaimer of
         | warranty and limitation of liability.
        
         | iso1631 wrote:
         | Why? GPL is a license to permit you to modify and distribute
         | the source code which is normally illegal under copyright law.
         | Nothing more, nothing less.
        
           | st_goliath wrote:
           | > Nothing more, nothing less.
           | 
           | Well actually, 2 more things: distribute the modifications as
           | well, and to _use it without restrictions_ (Well that, plus
           | making sure anybody who gets a copy gets the same rights).
           | 
           | The latter of the two points happens to be the retroactively
           | added freedom #0 in the FSF's definition of free software[0],
           | which is also repeated in the GPL license text, IIRC
           | somewhere at the top. The Open Source Definition used by the
           | OSI has clauses to a similar effect (See points 5 and 6)[1].
           | 
           | GP's suggestion, adding restrictions on how the software
           | could be used, would run counter to that, conflicting with
           | the very philosophy from which the GPL originates.
           | 
           | Bruce Perens, who originally wrote the Debian Free Software
           | Guidelines[4] (the OSI OSD is based on that), also commented
           | on that in 2019, when the idea to put forward to add ethics
           | based usage restrictions to software licenses[2][3].
           | 
           | [0] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html
           | 
           | [1] https://opensource.org/osd
           | 
           | [2] https://perens.com/2019/09/23/sorry-ms-ehmke-the-
           | hippocratic...
           | 
           | [3] https://perens.com/2019/10/12/invasion-of-the-ethical-
           | licens...
           | 
           | [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_Free_Software_Guidel
           | ine...
        
           | janto wrote:
           | Well, they might need to distribute the code on the "device"
           | it's running on :P
        
           | marcodiego wrote:
           | GPL is a free software license. For a license to be a free
           | software license, it must guarantee the 4 essential freedoms:
           | https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html#four-freedoms
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | miles wrote:
       | > The customer has nuclear weapons. They do not do "bounty". :)
       | 
       | Not only is this not funny, it would likely have the unfortunate
       | effect of turning off any of the "very, very, very, few
       | individuals"[0] who might be able to help. The fact that the
       | issue apparently remains open after a year and a half seems to
       | attest to that.
       | 
       | [0] https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=95644#c8
        
         | wyldfire wrote:
         | Indeed. If the bug were assigned to me, my inclination would be
         | to respond: you're being paid -- so Use the Source, Luke.
        
         | akersten wrote:
         | Yeah, that sort of entitlement would throw this issue at the
         | bottom of the priority queue for me. They're lucky they even
         | got a nice workaround kludge posted in the thread. Knowing that
         | probably 3 layers of government contractors are being paid fat
         | stacks to accomplish the task of posting breathless "bump, wen
         | fix?" on the maintainer mailing list is salt in the wound. I
         | would have closed the issue right then and there as a wontfix,
         | personally. We shouldn't enable those sort of attitudes towards
         | volunteers.
        
           | neltnerb wrote:
           | Definitely nauseating that "Bill Long" probably gets paid
           | $450 an hour for their time but can't manage to just write
           | the patch themselves or find one of the thousands of
           | programmers in their org to deal with it and submit a fix.
        
         | SolarNet wrote:
         | Not only that, it seems to actually have. All the developers
         | started saying things like this:
         | 
         | > I also did not test the libquadmath portion. ENOTIME.
         | 
         | > I don't have much time, but
         | 
         | With every statement they added. It's actually like clockwork,
         | every developer after that point said how they had little time.
        
         | vanusa wrote:
         | I don't see how one can _not_ find it funny.
         | 
         | Then again, I've never particularly desired to work for that
         | line of "customer".
        
         | scotty79 wrote:
         | My first thought was to do a quick vote if maybe we could
         | revoke their license to use the software.
        
         | klyrs wrote:
         | "Oh, well, you shouldn't have spent _all_ your money at the
         | nuclear bomb depot. If you 'd saved a million dollars for lil
         | 'ol me, I'd surely help."
        
       | myrandomcomment wrote:
       | This is a bit tongue and cheek as sharing just that random bit of
       | information on a true SCI program about the customer would cause
       | "issues". The customer is obviously DoD/DoE, however bug did not
       | come from the SCI side. If Cray/HPE is the contractor to the
       | customer in supporting this system and the software being used
       | then it is their issue write the fix or pay for a bounty to fix
       | it WITHOUT reveling the customer. Even as a joke as the customer
       | I would be upset.
       | 
       | Any large tech vendor likely has some dealing with certain
       | government agencies. It has been my experience that those
       | customers are NEVER referred to by name in any communications by
       | the vendor and always given generic names like "customer blue".
       | You may see a bug tagged as customer blue in your bug db, but you
       | did not know what agency that mapped to.
        
         | gjvc wrote:
         | psst... "tongue _in_ cheek "
        
         | iso1631 wrote:
         | Sounds like Cray are dealing with North Korea to me
        
       | IshKebab wrote:
       | What a dick. "It's not fixed. When will it be fixed? I'm not
       | paying."
       | 
       | Ok screw you Bill.
        
       | sanguy wrote:
       | You would be shocked at how much "military critical" software is
       | built on OSS tools, libraries, and code bases. More shocking are
       | the primary contractors charge top rates, contribute little to
       | OSS, and try to hide the OSS usage from the end client.
        
         | derefr wrote:
         | You'd in turn perhaps be shocked at how much OSS software
         | originates in militaries.
         | 
         | Especially in the software security / cryptography space -- if
         | a crypto algorithm isn't literally designed by some military,
         | it's often designed by some mathematicians who were contracted
         | by a military to come up with an algorithm with some particular
         | nice set of properties, who then (probably much later) reused
         | their paid learning to create another algorithm with similar
         | nice properties for public use, but different enough that it
         | doesn't "give anything away" cryptanalytically about its
         | confidential progenitor algorithm.
         | 
         | "Opened" projects like Tor or Ghidra aren't at-all uncommon,
         | either. The unusual part with those projects is that we _know_
         | where they came from; usually such things are thoroughly
         | scrubbed of their origins and handed over to a maintainer with
         | a public identity, who is to claim that they created it
         | themselves.
        
           | rackjack wrote:
           | Can you name some projects that have been scrubbed and handed
           | over?
        
             | derefr wrote:
             | That would rather put to waste the effort of scrubbing
             | them, no?
             | 
             | A lot of the reason for the scrubbing isn't confidentiality
             | of authorship per se (though obviously that's important),
             | but rather _optics_. If people see a FOSS project described
             | as being e.g.  "created by the NSA", they'll get skeeved
             | out of using it or contributing to it, even if the NSA is
             | no longer involved (or is only involved in the sense that
             | people who happen to work at the NSA contribute to the
             | project as civilians, in their time off, without the goals
             | of the NSA driving the contributions.)
             | 
             | Most of these opened projects are just a result of people
             | in the organizations seeing a genuinely-good project that
             | was created as a byproduct of some project -- probably by
             | some contractors that were actually decent for a change --
             | that nobody internally can get the resourcing to maintain
             | any more, and so is going to be canned and replaced -- and
             | thinking they can advocate to give it a new life as a
             | civilian asset. People thinking of the public good,
             | basically. If revealing the origins of the work would void
             | that benefit to the public good, they'll fastidiously avoid
             | doing so.
        
             | turk- wrote:
             | Apache Nifi and Accumulo do come to mind, both out of NSA.
        
       | mokus wrote:
       | They have way more patience than I do. I'd have pointed out
       | pretty quickly that this "customer" is not a customer of the
       | gfortran team and is therefore irrelevant to the discussion.
        
         | marcodiego wrote:
         | In this case, developers are in the powerful position to say:
         | "I don't care about your nuclear weapons, pay me or forget it."
        
       | dragonwriter wrote:
       | Cray/HPE, presumably, has a contract to provide support to the
       | customer with nuclear weapons. If this fix is necessary to that
       | contract, Cray/HPE should set the bounty needed to get it done as
       | part of the necessary cost of fulfilling their contract (if they
       | didn't figure it in, and it's not a cost-plus contract, and it
       | cuts into the profit margin, well, that's the risk you take with
       | fixed-cost contracting.) Free Software may often tend to be free-
       | as-in-beer as well as free-as-in-speech but, where it is, that is
       | _as is_. If you have special, and especially time-sensitive,
       | needs that aren 't _as is_ , you pay someone to do it. It's not a
       | _gratis_ support contract with response time guarantees. As Cray
       | /HPE ought to be well aware, that kind of support is expensive,
       | and doesn't happen if no one is paying.
        
         | nimbius wrote:
         | Agreed. The tone comes across as smug however.
         | 
         | Can the theatricality bill, nobody on the GCC bug tracker but
         | you cares if the country that spent two trillion dollars to
         | replace the Taliban in twenty years with the Taliban doesn't
         | seem to have they acumen to fund something they're now
         | critically dependent upon. They can barely get it in gear to
         | fund their own budget each year without a partisan meltdown.
         | 
         | If they could do any of this themselves, you'd be on the golf
         | course.
        
           | phkahler wrote:
           | >> They can barely get it in gear to fund their own budget
           | each year without a partisan meltdown.
           | 
           | When is the last time they stayed within budget?
        
         | danShumway wrote:
         | Very well written.
         | 
         | This feels like the log4j conversation all over again. Cray/HPE
         | knows what the problem is, and they know the developers aren't
         | being paid to fix the bug, the customer is hounding _them_ ,
         | not the original developers. This is their problem to solve,
         | they don't get to pretend that it's someone else's fault that
         | they're too cheap to shell out the money for proper
         | maintenance.
         | 
         | If this was a bug in Cray/HPE's own internal software, they
         | would pay a developer to fix it. It's wild as a company to
         | assume that because you're using someone else's stuff for free,
         | your responsibility for maintenance is now their problem as
         | well.
         | 
         | > Hi Bill, per our operational security procedure we can't talk
         | about ieee_arithmetic, especially when we dont get paid.
         | 
         | Good on the developers for saying this. You support people, or
         | you don't get to tell them what to do. And if you're a
         | commercial company taking on a contract that involves nuclear
         | weapons, maybe you devote some resources to making that
         | contract and the software running well, because that's what the
         | client is paying you to do.
         | 
         | So sick and tired of the backwards mentality that giving
         | something away to the world for free means that you now have an
         | additional obligation to fix everyone else's problems for free.
         | The "as is" clauses in Open Source licenses are there for a
         | reason.
        
           | toss1 wrote:
           | Yup, and there's nothing saying Cray, or [customer w/nuclear
           | weapons], or anyone else is required to use that OS package.
           | Perhaps they would have been better off writing their own in
           | this instance.
           | 
           | Or, better yet, they could write a fix and add it to the OS
           | package (kind of the way it's supposed to work - the set of
           | users maintain it so everyone benefits?).
        
         | hitekker wrote:
         | Yeah, I thought Bill Long from Cray was joking at first. But
         | his follow-up messages are plain passive aggressive
         | 
         | > Inquiry from the original site: "Does GCC provide a timeline
         | for when they will conform to F2018?"
        
           | okl wrote:
           | Choosing beggar mentality. I hate it.
        
             | kazinator wrote:
             | Beggars can hardly afford stockpiles of nuclear weapons!
             | 
             | (Though when it comes to programming, they have armed
             | themselves with a flint arrowhead.)
        
               | scotty79 wrote:
               | Begger is defined by begging not by what he has. Not all
               | beggers are destitute.
        
           | throwaway19937 wrote:
           | I would respond with "F2018 conformance will be fixed sooner
           | if you help."
        
             | neltnerb wrote:
             | This is extremely polite while still being direct, I really
             | like things like this.
             | 
             | It makes clear that there is a way they can help, with
             | enough attitude to make clear that the other person is
             | dealing with individuals rather than some magic free
             | subcontractor.
        
         | skim_milk wrote:
         | I think it's just the sad state of the corporate structure at
         | the moment. If a manager requested and got a budget to fix said
         | bug to his superiors, it's his ass that's on the line if things
         | don't work as planned. If same manager said "it's not our fault
         | things don't work" nothing happens to him. Hopefully when the
         | current generation of managers gets replaced they'll be
         | replaced by those that actually understand FOSS and can
         | incentivize fixing these issues. But as it stands everyone,
         | including the shareholders of these big companies, suffer from
         | poorly designed corporate incentives that let FOSS projects
         | stay unmaintained.
        
         | pjmlp wrote:
         | Fully agree with you.
        
         | KennyBlanken wrote:
         | According to Bill Long's linkedin page he has ~25 years Fortran
         | experience and holds "principal member" status on a Fortran
         | committee for much of those. Describes himself as a "master"
         | engineer.
         | 
         | Someone with that level of experience and recognition should be
         | capable of either implementing the function themselves, or at
         | the very least have the professional network to know a number
         | of people capable of doing so for HPE.
         | 
         | I would also expect significantly more tact and
         | professionalism.
         | 
         | The email record screams "BOFH bench warmer."
         | 
         | Edit: the more I think about this, the more I think he probably
         | sold himself to HPE as being able to give them what they want
         | from FORTRAN due to his committee membership. Which turned out
         | to not be true, thus placing his salary at risk.
        
           | tyingq wrote:
           | He's even a co-author on a paper that specifically uses
           | Fortran <-> C interop. Which is the kind of work he's asking
           | for here.
           | 
           | https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3418084
           | 
           | I'm aware that sometimes you can get your name on the paper
           | by riding the other author's coattails, but it's interesting.
        
         | raincom wrote:
         | Even if it is a fixed contract, they can shell out $10k for
         | this. However, account managers and their bosses are bean
         | counters.
        
       | slackfan wrote:
       | Most organizations with nuclear weapons most certainly do pay
       | bounties. Generally for foreign intelligence, but I believe it
       | applies.
       | 
       | https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2021/11/18/fbi...
        
         | hughrr wrote:
         | I worked for a large defence contractor and getting approval
         | for anyone to pay for that would have been more difficult than
         | actually learning how to fix it myself and fixing it myself. At
         | which point I would never be allowed to contribute the fix back
         | to the original project due to the no code export policy and
         | airgapped network.
         | 
         | I could of course have done a clean room patch at home based on
         | my retained knowledge but quite frankly I probably couldn't be
         | assed with it by the time I'd got home and eaten dinner due to
         | the depression of working in such a horrible place.
         | 
         | That's the reality of working for such folk.
        
           | derefr wrote:
           | > At which point I would never be allowed to contribute the
           | fix back to the original project due to the no code export
           | policy and airgapped network.
           | 
           | I mean, presumably what you'd be getting approval to _do_ is
           | to take PTO to do the work off-hours _for_ the upstream
           | project as a volunteer, no?
           | 
           | That's the deal most "open-core upstream maintained in
           | public, enterprise SaaS downstream maintained in private"
           | companies offer: "we'll compensate you for the time you spend
           | volunteering as an engineer/maintainer at the Foundation,
           | shipping the code we depend on."
           | 
           | In such a case, the code would never _start_ as work-for-hire
           | as part of a confidential project; and so would never need to
           | be exported from said confidential project. It 'd start life
           | as FOSS code living in your personal GitHub repo fork of the
           | upstream.
        
             | hughrr wrote:
             | Probably wouldn't work in the end described. The only way
             | to get it in would be to get the maintainers to accept the
             | patch, then wait for redhat to pull it in, then wait for a
             | stable OS release, then wait for the IT guys to approve
             | that release for internal use, then wait for the other IT
             | guys to install it on your nodes.
             | 
             | Every time we had an issue the only option was to literally
             | divert the flow of a river around it in some way.
             | 
             | The positive outcome of this was the sheer amount of
             | _outside the box_ thinking practice genuinely lead to some
             | of us gaining semi elite debugging and hacking skills. My
             | own favourite was writing a tool to frig with the IAT in PE
             | files on windows NT so you could inject a new function to
             | wrap vendor DLL functions so we could patch bugs without
             | involving the vendor.
        
           | bluGill wrote:
           | I got around that one place by just writing up a bug report
           | and a it seems like line x of file... this wasn't government
           | and so they wouldn't have cared anyway so i just avoided
           | figuring out the paperwork to contribute.
        
           | lmeyerov wrote:
           | Sort of, in a depressing way:
           | 
           | - It's pretty doable to get someone's hours for this,
           | especially within the contractor or one of their DC buddies:
           | there's already a customer and a contractor, and presumably,
           | some sort of purchase vehicle & contract. The words "senior",
           | "support", and "fee" are probably in there in multiple
           | places.
           | 
           | - By (backwards) design, it is much harder for a truly expert
           | OSS dev not in the contractor circle, and even harder, an OSS
           | product org offering maintenance contracts for events like
           | this
           | 
           | - The middle ground becomes sales/lobby-heavy orgs like
           | IBM/RedHat, which introduces another multi-layer technical &
           | political world of pain. I haven't worked with Cray
           | (discussed in the thread), so no comment there. But as seen,
           | we're seeing a chain of well-funded stakeholders being fine
           | with not supporting for a prolonged period, which is cultural
           | red flags.
        
             | pinewurst wrote:
             | From 1st hand experience there's a lot of (IMHO) confusion
             | in these sorts of organizations between maintenance and new
             | features driving this kind of entitlement.
        
           | vkou wrote:
           | > I worked for a large defence contractor and getting
           | approval for anyone to pay for that would have been more
           | difficult than actually learning how to fix it myself and
           | fixing it myself. At which point I would never be allowed to
           | contribute the fix back to the original project due to the no
           | code export policy and airgapped network.
           | 
           | Unless your software was write-once, compile-once, 'fixing it
           | myself' includes the time it takes to do the initial fix, add
           | unit tests for it, and also the time it takes to patch that
           | fix into every future version of GCC you use - and also
           | ensure that the institution will remember to do so long after
           | you get on the lottery bus.
           | 
           | Given all of the above, it may in fact, be easier to figure
           | out who in your org you can bug to just pay the vendor.
        
           | dhosek wrote:
           | I'm so glad that I never did that work when it was a
           | possibility.
        
           | dathinab wrote:
           | I wonder if they couldn't "just" put up a misc. software
           | support money pool with a reasonable but in the huge picture
           | small amount of money they can "low complexity" spend on such
           | things?
        
             | hughrr wrote:
             | Considering it took three tiers of management and three
             | facilities department members to replace a coffee machine
             | that had an actual service contract in place already, I
             | think something of that administrative complexity would
             | have been beyond them.
             | 
             | Either that or like most SMEs I've worked for they're
             | actually only using the stuff because it's "free" by their
             | corrupted definition of "free" which is basically it didn't
             | have to go through a PO process.
        
               | [deleted]
        
         | petertodd wrote:
         | I think in this case that comment was just a funny way of
         | saying both "this is actually for the well known USA nuclear
         | weapons program, which everyone knows uses Crays" as well as "I
         | couldn't get anyone to approve a bounty"
        
           | boulos wrote:
           | As was the joking response about not discussing IEEE
           | implementations due to their ops sec :).
        
             | gowld wrote:
             | Oh, I didn't understand what that was getting at, beyond
             | the generael idea of trolling the misbehaving requester,
             | but which I thought cored devs don't do in their own bug
             | tracker.
             | 
             | > Hi Bill, per our operational security procedure we can't
             | talk about ieee_arithmetic, especially when we dont get
             | paid.
        
           | pydry wrote:
           | Still about 100x more alarming than funny.
        
       | phkahler wrote:
       | My guess is that Cray/HPE does not want to set a precedent where
       | they actually PAY the developers. They want to cheaply "work
       | with" the community to get things done.
        
       | marcodiego wrote:
       | This makes me partially sad and even a bit furious. The costumer
       | has nuclear weapons, why don't they pay developers then?
        
         | scotty79 wrote:
         | They could pay with warheads if that's the only thing they
         | have.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | temikus wrote:
       | As an OSS maintainer myself writing something like that on the
       | bug tracker would make it less likely to be worked on as this
       | indicates complete disregard for maintainer's time and efforts.
       | 
       | I know for a fact that I have at least one trillion and multiple
       | billion-dollar companies using a piece of my (somewhat obscure)
       | software. Somehow they're always the ones asking for urgent fixes
       | and never the ones contributing patches.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | PreddyMW wrote:
       | Airstrike confirmed.
        
       | baybal2 wrote:
       | The first thing I thought of in this context was that GCC meant
       | "Gulf Cooperation Council"
        
       | gaze wrote:
       | "Fuck you, pay me" is the only appropriate response.
        
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