[HN Gopher] Midwest Developer
___________________________________________________________________
Midwest Developer
Author : luu
Score : 110 points
Date : 2021-12-27 20:23 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (lanie.dev)
(TXT) w3m dump (lanie.dev)
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| > In Minnesota, the emphasis is on working hard at whatever you
| do, and living a good life
|
| I moved to Minnesota from Connecticut about 20 years ago. When
| describing the company culture during my interview, my manager
| said "well, we have a choice of Summer hours to give you more
| time off during our very short summers, but come Winter, everyone
| just hunkers down and gets to work." Said with a broad smile and
| excitement about getting to work! Really nice guy though, and a
| damn good engineer.
|
| I'll just leave this here:
| https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/969324.How_to_Talk_Mi...
| neartheplain wrote:
| I'm a Midwest native and huge fan of the region. It's been great
| to see more big tech firms open offices here, in addition to a
| rising number of startups and software consulting firms. Was
| happily surprised to see that Tundra Labs, who recently launched
| a well-reviewed VR full-body tracking product, is based out of
| Green Bay, Wisconsin (I am not affiliated, just a Midwest VR
| enthusiast):
|
| https://twitter.com/Tundra_Labs
| hangonhn wrote:
| How could you forget about the humble Gopher protocol:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopher_(protocol) !? :-)
| greenyoda wrote:
| One of the earliest graphical web browsers, Mosaic, was also a
| product of the Midwest, having been developed at the University
| of Illinois: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_(web_browser)
| analog31 wrote:
| Greetings from Wisconsin. I'd describe the attitude towards work
| a bit differently: I think we tend to have generally healthy
| attitudes about work-life balance. I've not seen the 996 culture
| here except in some rare cases. When we work, we work. Then we go
| home. There's probably a different age distribution among tech
| workers, that might be reflected in our attitudes. I have
| colleagues who are past 65 and still enjoy coming in and doing
| their thing.
|
| Not everybody hates the winter. I love it. Right now I'm looking
| out at a nice snowstorm, and hoping to take a long walk in it. I
| believe the trick to dealing with the weather -- hot and cold --
| is to get out and embrace it. If you're outside every day, the
| seasons won't take you by surprise. You'll figure out clothing.
| You'll find the nice places to take walks or ride your bike. It
| doesn't have to happen all at once, or even within the space of
| one year.
| curiousllama wrote:
| > Not everybody hates the winter.
|
| Absolute truth.
|
| > I believe the trick to dealing with the weather -- hot and
| cold -- is to get out and embrace it.
|
| I used to routinely need to walk >2 miles over the course of a
| day in Chicago winters. I assure you, I still hated it!
|
| 100 degrees and humid? No problem. Sub-zero? I'm leaving!
| mNovak wrote:
| I will vouch that the Midwest is highly underrated. People are
| friendly; there's way more diversity and culture than people seem
| to think; it's affordable.
| Supermancho wrote:
| My family (parents and siblings) sold their properties in
| California and moved to Minnesota, shortly before I moved to
| Washington with my wife. 2.5 years later we moved to Fargo. It
| looks like Irvine most of the year and has everything you need
| in Southern California for a fraction of the price.
| mgkimsal wrote:
| I grew up in Detroit, but moved south about 15 years ago. I've
| got a couple friends from MN, and visited there for a conference
| ... maybe 8-9 years ago. I loved the downtown - big enough to
| feel like a 'real city', but not overwhelmingly so. That was my
| impression, anyway. I was only there for a few days, but really
| liked the short vibe I got. I was visiting in July, however, and
| kept imagining how brutal the winters would be. I have to imaging
| 'as bad as Detroit' or perhaps worse. It was amazing to me how
| quickly I don't miss winter/snow at all. I never cared for it,
| even when living there, but when you're born in to an area, you
| 'live with it'. After a while, much of your life is there, and
| leaving can be hard (friends/family/work/etc).
|
| My family is in 34(f)-degrees-Detroit area right now, while I had
| a 72(f)-degrees afternoon. Just could not think of moving back
| permanently, but I do like to visit.
| transienthrow wrote:
| allturtles wrote:
| No matter how dismissive one is of the midwest, how could you be
| ignorant of the existence of a major metro area like Minneapolis-
| St. Paul? Per [0], it's the 16th largest in the U.S. Its teams
| participate in every major televised sports league (NFL, NBA,
| NHL, MLB).
|
| I dunno, I almost just don't believe the OP's anecdotes, unless
| they are talking to recent arrivals to the U.S. from other
| countries. I'm from a significantly smaller Midwestern city than
| Minneapolis, and I don't recall anyone ever saying "where's that"
| or "are there buildings there" when I say where I'm from.
|
| [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_statistical_area
| aspaceman wrote:
| I grew up pretty close to Chicago and folks in California still
| call me "corn boy".
| light_hue_1 wrote:
| All of this depends on who you are. And a lot of information is
| being left out here. I lived in the Midwest for 6 years doing my
| PhD. For me, it was beyond horrific. By far the worst place I've
| ever been.
|
| You have black skin? Oh yeah, the Midwest is going to be real
| fun. I have seen some horrific racism that blew my mind. Even
| Boston, which is notoriously racist, had nothing on the most
| liberal parts of the Midwest that I've been to.
|
| Dare to be gay?! Yeah, I've seen the nice people in the liberal
| towns in the Midwest react to two men holding hands. Saying that
| it wasn't positive is.. a massive understatement. None of my gay
| friends felt remotely comfortable outside the confines of campus.
|
| You're an atheist? I have seen people shout at atheists calling
| them devils and far worse things.
|
| The Midwest is largely Trump country. I have seen people casually
| stop friends who had a Hispanic accent in the supermarket to tell
| them to go fuck themselves and go back to their country.
|
| You want culture? In major towns I can go to the symphony, go to
| talks, classes, explore new parts of the town, take tours, go to
| concerns or performances, etc. Not to mention that I'm not bound
| to having a car and going on endless drives to get to the one
| supermarket near me.
|
| If you're white, straight, and you decide to tolerate hate by
| looking away and making sure to never bring up any contentious
| issues, yeah, maybe the Midwest is for you.
|
| I've been there. Never again.
| almost_usual wrote:
| Most of California is Trump country outside of the Bay Area and
| LA.
| carlivar wrote:
| When does it stop being Trump country and revert back to just
| conservative?
| almost_usual wrote:
| I'm only saying it because that's how the parent referenced
| it.
| bovermyer wrote:
| First off, stop saying "the Midwest" like it's one unified
| culture. That's like saying all humans are the same.
|
| Secondly, Minneapolis specifically is very cosmopolitan. I live
| here, and there's a vibrant progressive culture.
|
| I've seen far more Trumpling culture recently on a drive
| through Illinois and Indiana than in my last ten years of
| living in Minneapolis.
|
| I will repeat - do not _ever_ call "the Midwest" one culture
| again.
| wobblykiwi wrote:
| Driving through Illinois during the election last year was
| interesting. Having grown up and currently living in Chicago,
| you won't see much "Trumpling" (as you put it) culture in the
| city proper and much of the surrounding suburbs, but that
| changes drastically even an hour or 2 drive out from the
| city. It's like an entirely different world.
| cozzyd wrote:
| Yes, probably the best example is driving down Route 66
| between Joliet and Wilmington. Wilmington greets you with
| this: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3094815,-88.1413858,3
| a,47.3y...
| selectodude wrote:
| Unless you're Jussie Smollett :O
| profmonocle wrote:
| > The Midwest is largely Trump country.
|
| Minnesota, the state being discussed in the article, hasn't
| gone red in a presidential election since 1972 - longer than
| any other state. (Only DC has a longer blue streak.) We were
| also the first state in the midwest to legalize gay marriage
| via legislation rather than a court order.
|
| Yes, the rural parts of the state are very conservative. (The
| district just north of me was Michele Bachmann's.) But this is
| true nationwide - just look at rural California or Washington.
| cozzyd wrote:
| There are certainly parts of the Midwest like you describe, but
| not the bigger cosmopolitan cities (Chicago, Minneapolis,
| Detroit, Columbus, Madison etc.) that people are likely talking
| about here, but overall you're mostly describing rural small
| towns all over the country, with a few exceptions (ski towns,
| vermont).
| thatfunkymunki wrote:
| Yeah, being even slightly queer or non-white is majorly
| disruptive to leading a reasonable, hate-free life in the
| midwest IME (I specifically have experience with Chicago). I
| think people that talk about how diverse, open, and respectful
| places like Chicago are are either white/straight or have never
| lived in a coastal USA city (that is, NYC, SF, LA, Seattle,
| etc).
| almost_usual wrote:
| I can't imagine PNW loggers and NorCal State of Jefferson
| types being more open minded than your average Chicagoan.
|
| The west coast is very conservative outside of major metros.
| thatfunkymunki wrote:
| my apologies, I specified coastal cities in an edit, since
| my original phrasing mentioned only the coast in general.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| Having grown up in various places in the Midwest and lived here
| most of my life, I've never seen this. What campus was this?
|
| Cincinnati Pride is a week-long LGBT event that most of the
| city gets into.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_Pride
| istorical wrote:
| In flyover country you have insane racists screaming at you for
| being gay/black/whatever.
|
| In NYC/SF you have insane homeless people screaming at you for
| ...whatever they are screaming at you for.
|
| I think the important question is - what percentage of the
| population in any of these areas is really shitty to live
| around, and how often does a person have these types of
| experiences. In either case, it's hard to avoid some form of
| unpleasant shitty people.
|
| All that being said, that really sucks and I hope the world
| changes for the better soon.
| mikewarot wrote:
| It should be noted that CBBS, the first Computerized Bulletin
| Board System, was created because of a snow storm in the Chicago
| area. Constraints inspire creativity.
| yesimahuman wrote:
| I live in Madison and believe it or not we have coastal VC-backed
| startups (including my own and a SoftBank-backed unicorn or two)
| and lots of professional engineers. A lot of people on the coasts
| are frankly just not that knowledgeable outside of their bubble
| and that's okay, it really doesn't mean that what the Midwest has
| isn't significant. I have actually grown to quite like being an
| under the radar city for all the benefits that brings and having
| a different perspective on America
| neartheplain wrote:
| There's also a full-fledged Google office in Madison, in
| addition to their offices in Chicago and (soon) Rochester,
| Minnesota. Working as a developer and living in the Midwest
| doesn't necessarily mean leaving Big Tech.
| marktangotango wrote:
| The worst part of being a developer in the midwest is the
| companies; banks, financial services, insurance, telecoms,
| insurance, banks. Did I mention insurance and banks? Of course
| there is more variety, but I think most would agree there's not a
| lot of cutting edge stuff going on "here" generally.
|
| Growing remote oppurtunities do mitigate that, but the number of
| companies trying to "modernize" their infrastructure is...
| depressing.
| yesimahuman wrote:
| There are legacy companies everywhere. There are more than
| enough interesting startups or remote opportunities in the
| Midwest (city depending) that this isn't really true any more
| PascLeRasc wrote:
| The interesting companies (Duolingo, Argo, Root, maybe
| Capital One, etc) in the Midwest won't hire anyone from
| regular local universities. They get all their people from
| CMU/Stanford/UCs. If you went to a place like Ohio State the
| best you can hope for locally is DBA at an insurance company.
| A lot of the engineers I graduated with have given up on this
| and are doing real estate or retraining to become a teacher.
| You can work for SpaceX, Google, Amazon, but you need to move
| out of the Midwest first. So out of college you need to ask
| yourself if giving up all your local friends and family is
| worth having a fulfilling career. It's hard.
|
| The workplace culture is different too. If you're in the rust
| belt, your managers over age 50 came from manufacturing lines
| and were taught that they need to literally see you looking
| like you're working all the time and they'll use phrases like
| "extract value from human capital". They'll want you to beg
| and plead for permission to use your PTO, but then put in
| your performance review that you're getting a 1% instead of a
| 2% raise for excessive time off utilization. My friend's
| telecom workplace just announced that their holiday bonus is
| that they may wear jeans on Fridays all 2022.
| yesimahuman wrote:
| As a startup employer in the Midwest this doesn't resonate
| with me at all. We don't care what school you went to as
| long as you're good. In this hiring climate no one can
| afford to be weirdly selective about school
| endemic wrote:
| Same here, I helped do recruiting for a previous
| employer, a healthcare tech company in Columbus, OH.
| AFAIK the other local tech companies are fairly
| egalitarian regarding higher education.
| PascLeRasc wrote:
| Midwest is broad and from what I hear about Chicago and
| Minneapolis they're much more progressive. I'm referring
| mostly to Ohio/western Pennsylvania/WV.
|
| It's good to hear that you'd give local grads a chance
| though, thanks.
| yesimahuman wrote:
| As a midwesterner I should know better than to make
| generalizations about what is a huge and diverse region
| of America, so good reminder!
| ralmidani wrote:
| I live in Columbus, worked at Chase, and currently work at
| ScriptDrop (we coordinate prescription deliveries). I don't
| have a CS degree, just a bootcamp. I haven't encountered,
| or heard of anyone who has encountered, any of the issues
| you mention (I've never had a PTO request turned down or
| even questioned).
|
| Small sample size, so maybe there are idiotic companies and
| managers out there, but they're probably not as common as
| you suggest.
|
| Also, I prefer working for a company that has demonstrated
| and tangible real-world value. Not every problem in the
| world is an algorithm away from being solved.
| josefdlange wrote:
| This is so lovely and so remarkably familiar. Thank you so much
| for sharing. Having recently moved back to the midwest (SE WI)
| after being in the Seattle area for almost ten years, I feel so
| much of this. You've put it into words far better than I could
| dream of doing.
| [deleted]
| jeffreportmill1 wrote:
| Thank you for sharing your experience. I recently became a
| midwest developer myself having moved to Chicago 2 years ago and
| I've wondered about the lives of colleagues in this part of the
| country as we've explored a little of Wisconsin and Indiana. They
| warned me that 6 weeks of the year I would wish to be anywhere
| else. 2019 was fine - I found the cold invigorating, and with
| like more than a few inches of accumulated snow, I thought
| reports had been exaggerated. The winter of 2020-2021, disabused
| me of that - 3 feet of snow piled outside for 2-3 months has
| humbled me.
|
| I started as a southern developer 30 years ago, but in Texas I
| was considered a hippie. When I moved to Silicon Valley to fix
| that, I was considered too much of a Texan. After 10 years in CA
| we went back to Texas which felt more like home, but
| paradoxically was more isolating, because I knew very few
| software developers (working for myself). I must have thought
| this adventure in Chicago was going to be my happy medium.
|
| So I wish you continued good luck in Minnesota. Say hello to Al
| Franken and Garrison Keillor for me (two Minnesotans I've enjoyed
| listening to for years).
| blockwriter wrote:
| The Indiana Sand Dunes are a good day trip into Indiana from
| Chicago.
| cozzyd wrote:
| My work takes me to Antarctica and Greenland, so now I don't
| think Chicago winters are all that bad anymore :).
| cpher wrote:
| Welcome to Chicago. I've lived here 15+ years, and Illinois
| most of my life. And I _still_ hate winter LOL.
| Minor49er wrote:
| This take is pretty spot-on. Many developers also move to
| Minnesota, so there are some pretty striking personality clashes
| in odd ways. As long as you like craft beer, though, you're
| golden
| the_only_law wrote:
| > As long as you like craft beer, though, you're golden
|
| Depends are we talking about "oops all IPA's" type craft beer
| or a nice varied selection of styles and flavors.
| piefayth wrote:
| You wouldn't believe the extent of the beer scene in the Twin
| Cities. There's pretty much any beer you could imagine, then
| probably some ones you can't.
|
| I moved here from Chicago ~6 years ago and was disappointed
| at how much worse the TC food scene was (it still has some
| gems, and is improving, as another commenter pointed out),
| but immediately I noticed a stark contrast in my social
| circles. In Chicago people would invite you to bars and
| restaurants, but in Minneapolis nearly everyone I met
| (coworkers, dates, etc) wanted to go to a brewery! And it's
| clear why - there's genuinely fantastic beers on every
| corner. You could spend months just trying to sample all the
| single cans that your local liquor store sells.
|
| Even beer haters would be delighted at the nice array of
| sours and ciders around. My mom, a known beer-despiser, still
| asks me when we can get more "nice beers from that place you
| took me."
| rmason wrote:
| You think it's bad being from Minneapolis-St. Paul, try telling
| them you're originally from Detroit!
|
| It's getting better but the amount of ignorance about Detroit is
| amazing! I tried once talking an evangelist into adding Detroit
| to the road show around twenty years ago. There had just been an
| article in Time magazine and it said something like the city had
| the lowest number of college graduates per capita of any major
| city and there were less than 670,000 people. The guy immediately
| hit me with that fact. He said we couldn't possibly go to a place
| that small and if we did there wouldn't be that many developers.
|
| I said that may be true for the city of Detroit but the Detroit
| metro has over four million people and I assure you there are a
| lot of developers. So they decided to add Detroit as a tour stop
| and he later told me that it was one of the largest and most
| enthusiastic audiences on the entire tour.
|
| Even today Detroit gets left off most tech tours and when one
| does add them they're pleasantly surprised by the turn out.
| That's despite the fact that Amazon, Microsoft, Google and
| Twitter have offices there.
| michigama wrote:
| There's something particularly exciting about Detroit that's
| hard to put my finger on, especially the last few years of
| development in the Midtown area. Something about all of the
| lovely art deco architecture slowly being re-occupied and
| revitalized by tech/retail/restaurants makes it an incredibly
| interesting time and place to be around.
| mishftw wrote:
| "In Minnesota, the emphasis is on working hard at whatever you
| do, and living a good life."
|
| Having done my undergrad at the University of Michigan and spent
| a year and half in Detroit afterwards, I relate a lot to this
| article. People are just nicer and more personable here, there is
| less arrogance and an attitude of "doing the work".
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| I lasted about 2 years in the PNW before I decided to go back to
| the midwest. It's worked out really well. A side benefit,
| Cincinnati is within driving distance of a lot of furry
| conventions. (Before the pandemic...)
|
| The midwest is a lot more laid back than other places I've been.
| People are friendly here. I've had a few nice conversations with
| random strangers, just because we were standing in the same line.
| If you don't want to talk to people in line, that's fine too.
| You're not forced to interact with anyone, but there are a lot of
| opportunities if you want to.
| jplhomer wrote:
| Des Moines, IA software engineer checking in!
|
| It's great. Not terribly exciting, but the hours/culture/WL
| balance others have described holds up.
| kerneloftruth wrote:
| This is very good, and applies to so many people from the
| Midwest. This describes, pleasantly and without vitriol, the
| attitudes (shaped by perspective) that many coastal folks with
| little exposure to the rest of the US have. These are the same
| folks who call the Midwest states "flyover states", implying
| "nobody who's anybody stops or lives there".
|
| I've been asked by someone from Boston if we celebrated
| Independence Day in Texas, and have seen a UC Berkeley graduate
| become genuinely frightened by the sight of a Southern Living
| cookbook.
|
| Being ignorant of places you haven't been to is understandable,
| but it seems a common pattern for those in the Midwest to see the
| coastal places as "special" and desirable to at least visit;
| whereas geographically ignorant Californians (the ones I'm most
| familiar with) generally view all the interior states as
| "lesser". Granted, this is a bit of generalized judgement on my
| own part.
| binarynate wrote:
| The part about working on side projects in the winter resonates
| with me. I've lived in Indiana my entire life and am considering
| moving to Texas to escape the cold, gray winters. Part of me is
| worried that I'll be less productive in the winter because of
| that, but I think it will be worth the tradeoff.
| 015a wrote:
| Being a midwest developer:
|
| - Cost of living. Its the cheapest place in the US to live.
|
| - Gender ratio. This is something new grads should absolutely
| consider. The gender ratio even on midwest tech teams feels
| nation-leading, with many of the companies I've talked to
| (including my own) near 50-50. But even beyond tech; its far more
| equitable here. This is a theme I see all the time with west-
| coast tech; they talk about making change, implement tons of
| policies to try to it happen, but here, its already happened. We
| just don't talk about it. This is important for new grads even
| beyond their job; finding a partner here is so much easier & more
| fun.
|
| - Pay & Job Security. Some companies are "old" and still stuck in
| their ways and won't match more high-tech salaries. You'll find
| that anywhere. Other companies have more progressive leadership,
| despite being a traditionally old business, and pay aggressively
| well. You'll also find that anywhere. You have to spend some time
| researching who is who, but: these companies have tons of money,
| desire to modernize, and the best part: very little sense of what
| being a "good engineer" means. Read into that what you will, but:
| you literally won't ever have a problem finding a job. I've
| gotten offers after literally just casually talking with someone
| for fifteen minutes in a company's engineering leadership at a
| tech meetup.
|
| - Remote. Many west coast companies are now paying west coast
| salaries regardless of work location. Local companies are pushing
| for more work-from-home or hybrid.
|
| - Novelty. Tech still feels nascent in many of these cities.
| Maybe not MSP/Chicago, but more of the second tier midwestern
| cities. The communities are small, three-person startups are
| still everywhere, and there's a startling amount of "old money"
| looking to invest. Most awesomely, there's much less bullshit; in
| general, you hear what some of these companies are working on and
| think "shit, that will sell".
|
| - Weather. You get used to it. But you know what we don't get?
| Wildfires, hurricanes, and earthquakes. Tornadoes are common, but
| they generally don't strike major cities. I'd take the midwest
| environment over west coast any day; warm weather every day is
| fine, but imagine buying a house in an area that's years overdue
| for an earthquake that will level your city.
| strombofulous wrote:
| > Cost of living. Its the cheapest place in the US to live.
|
| When I lived in a "low COL town" that wasn't in the midwest
| (about 2 hours from a major city of any kind and about an hour
| in various directions from a couple small cities) people would
| say this all the time... "Sure I'm only making 60% of what I
| could be but my CoL is so low!!"[0]
|
| But my rent was still over $600/mo for a 2-room apartment
| (each)
|
| Gas costed the same it costs everywhere else
|
| Walmart prices were walmart prices.
|
| Restaurants were typically cheap but that's because they
| weren't amazing - the population couldn't afford to sustain an
| high-end restaurant. There are cheap restaurants everywhere.
|
| I felt like it was cheap compared to outliers like seattle and
| the bay area, but not cheap on its own. I'm interested in how
| this might be different from the midwest. What kinds of
| products or services stand out to you as significantly
| contributing towards a low CoL?
|
| [0] With remote the bit about 60% is no longer as accurate, but
| it's what a lot of people said at the time, and some of them
| still make comparatively little and say they're fine because of
| the low CoL.
| tandymodel100 wrote:
| The gender ratio thing is weird and a surprising reason for why
| people my age seem to want to work in New York City. I really
| don't get it - as a non-white guy people like me are out of
| luck no matter the ratio.
| adamrezich wrote:
| when I was at GDC 2016 I met a couple who are somewhat well-known
| in those circles and while hanging out one night they started
| talking about the complex mix of feelings they had about having
| just moved back to San Francisco after being away for years. they
| said that because the weather is so mild and largely unvaried
| there, it's easy for one to lose track of time month after month,
| and the years sometimes just seem to run together as a result.
| this was incredibly interesting to me, having grown up in South
| Dakota (whose status as "midwest" is disputed (if not "midwest,"
| then what?)), which was an experience much like the one in this
| article. recently worsening cold-season arthritis aside, I very
| much enjoy the seasonal weather. "The summers are humid, hot, and
| fleeting, yet caked in an energy that can only be felt when a
| resource is limited" really resonates with me (except for the
| humid part).
| dehrmann wrote:
| > if not "midwest," then what?
|
| Great plains.
| boc wrote:
| As someone from the middle of Kansas, it's funny reading someone
| describe Minneapolis like a sleepy backwater town. If you truly
| grew up in the heartland, major cities like Minneapolis and
| Chicago feel incredibly alive and full of energy.
|
| Minneapolis is a cosmopolitan city. It has the second most
| theater seats of any US city (after NYC). It has lots of great
| food and international diversity, being home to large diasporas
| from Africa and SE Asia. If you're a Bay Area native, the most
| shocking thing about Minneapolis will be the weather, not the
| culture or people.
|
| In my opinion, the worst part about the weather in the Midwest is
| the variability. Good luck trying to plan a few days ahead -
| fronts whip through and drop or raise the temps dramatically.
| Rain/sleet/snow can happen almost anytime, and the intraday
| changes in weather are going to be foreign to anyone accustomed
| to coastal living. I've personally seen it go from 90F to 28F
| within 24 hours. If you can handle that, then Minneapolis is a
| great place to live.
| samschooler wrote:
| I was interested in the "second most theater seats of any US
| city (after NYC)" claim. After a little google, it looks like
| its actually _per capita_. Which is still cool, but not the
| same.
|
| https://thetangential.com/2014/07/29/sorry-twin-cities-that-...
| hirsin wrote:
| Ha, thank you, I was about to inject the pro-Cleveland piece
| mentioned in your link, so that was educational. How
| bounteous our country is to have so many second place cities!
| MobileVet wrote:
| 'Pro-Cleveland' is something you don't hear a lot, lol. If
| it wasn't for the gray winters it really would be a solid
| place. I grew up there and went to school in Indiana. The
| difference in sun was remarkable and made a lot of
| difference when it was cold.
| yesimahuman wrote:
| Yes it's hilarious hearing people describe midwestern towns as
| quaint when we have massive cities like Chicago and pretty much
| everything most other coastal cities have
| cozzyd wrote:
| Yeah after living in Chicago for the last 7 years, SF doesn't
| feel very big like it used to when I lived in the Bay Area
| many years ago.
| nso95 wrote:
| From Oklahoma and I agree - feels like they think the midwest
| is some sort of alien world...
| vineyardmike wrote:
| As a new englander, living in the PNW, dreaming of returning to
| california sun, I sure do miss my time in the midwest (although
| i've never been to Minnesota specifically).
|
| Obviously you can't generalize everyone, but the people i met in
| the MW were way nicer than the people i knew from the east coast
| or west coast. I've been invited into many strangers homes as if
| i was a close friend. Very few people seem to be captured by a
| blind viral drive towards success the way you find in places like
| NYC or SF, and instead people are just happy and enjoy their
| position in life. (not to say people don't do good work, or don't
| succeed at goals). If you dream of a nice middle class life, with
| a quaint house and a nice family, and all that jazz, it seems
| like a great place to be, and a culture that wants you to have
| it... if you're straight and white and "normal".
|
| The weather sure does suck though. Hot summers, cold snowy
| winters. Worse than new england, with less money to keep roads
| and infra in shape. That said, i find myself every fall on the
| west coast missing "real fall" where the leaves change and the
| brisk wind cools you down outside as you can see your breath.
| Throwing on a soft flannel and grabbing something warm to drink
| while you stand outside and enjoy nature...
| coldpie wrote:
| > The weather sure does suck though.
|
| Ahhhhh you gotta embrace it and find the good in it or you'll
| just resent everything :) St Paulite here. This morning it was
| 9 degrees F on the way to the bus. The snow has a beautiful,
| sparkling layer of ice from the rainy drizzle we got the other
| day. Most of the plants were covered in a thin coating of ice,
| the streetlights reflecting through them looked like inverted
| icicles. It's snowing now, we'll probably get 2" this
| afternoon, lovely to crunch through.
| jcims wrote:
| I live in Ohio and it's probably my faulty memory at work but
| it seems that our winters used to be much more like what you
| describe. I can distinctly recall hunting deer in -20F
| weather in the 80s and my cheap plastic orange vest just
| disintegrating as I walk. Lots of weekends and evenings spent
| sledding or trying to optimize packing vs throwing in a good
| snowball fight (afterall it's not good until someone bleeds,
| right?)
|
| Aside from a nice blast of snow last year, it seems that our
| winters are now largely an indiscriminate blah of slush and
| rain and I'm tired. Need to relocate north or south and i
| can't figure out which.
| light_hue_1 wrote:
| > if you're straight and white and "normal".
|
| Yup. That sums my experiences up nicely, although I would add
| "if you're straight and white and 'normal' and don't care about
| how people treat anyone else".
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Obviously you can't generalize everyone, but the people i met
| in the MW were way nicer than the people i knew from the east
| coast or west coast.
|
| > it seems like a great place to be, and a culture that wants
| you to have it... if you're straight and white and "normal".
|
| That suggests that you are using a definition of "nice" that
| many people (especially those who are not, but even many who
| are, unless the last term includes bigotry within its ambit)
| straight and white and "normal" would rather strongly disagree
| with.
| vineyardmike wrote:
| > the people i met in the MW were way nicer than the people i
| knew from the east coast or west coast.
|
| The people i met were way more _polite_ than people
| elsewhere. Thats what nice meant.
|
| > it seems like a great place to be...
|
| It seems to be a place that is rewarding to be in and will
| make you happy (if you fit in and want their cultural norms).
| Normal in this context = Want a quaint middle class hetero
| nuclear white-picket-fence american-dream style life and
| you're also polite and friendly just like those around you.
| Many people want that, especially "all american" people who
| grew up (white, middleclass, american) with that experience
| themselves (and american propoganda). No bigotry implied...
| thats not everyones experience, but its probably the "normal"
| for a native Midwesterner (from my time there).
| wincy wrote:
| The "if you're straight and white and normal" sure doesn't
| track with my experience. I'm a software engineer in Overland
| Park, Kansas, and live in a middle class neighborhood in the
| suburbs. Cows a mile one way and IKEA the other way. It's the
| "American Dream" town, and it's MORE diverse than when I lived
| in the city. My neighbors are Indian and Jordanian, Kenyan,
| Chinese, Vietnamese, Pakistani, African American, Caucasian
| (some from US, some from other countries). I bought this house
| from a Nepalese couple based on their names.
| packetlost wrote:
| This is absolutely not the experience if you live in
| Wisconsin. Well over 80% of people here are white.
| CountDrewku wrote:
| Because it's full of German immigrants. Do you want them to
| hate themselves because they're a specific skin color?
|
| Would you say something similar about people's skin color
| if you went to Nigeria?
|
| What's your point with a comment like this? Yes America is
| majority white and those percentages are higher in some
| areas. It's not a problem.
| sohdas wrote:
| He's just saying that the Midwest (eg. Wisconsin) is not
| generally as diverse as Overland Park, which is true. You
| should examine what made you react so strongly to this.
| CountDrewku wrote:
| You should probably examine the comment at the top of the
| chain he/she responded to and think it over a little
| harder.
| xmprt wrote:
| The point is that people make generalizations that they
| don't realize based on their personal experience. For
| example, I can make tons of generalization about how nice
| India is for tourists as an Indian (I currently live in
| America but travel back for family and as a tourist
| occasionally) but someone who's white might not share
| that same experience because they might be hounded by
| scammers and people looking to make a quick buck off of
| an unsuspecting foreigner.
|
| Similarly, cities and people in the midwest might be
| great if you're straight, white, and "normal" but that
| might not be true for everyone. Will people be as
| welcoming if they see you as an outsider? Maybe. I try to
| keep an open mind but I also can't be 100% sure.
| carlivar wrote:
| Same stat likely applies to Kansas. The closest comparison
| to Overland Park would be some suburb of Milwaukee. I
| guarantee Milwaukee area diversity is higher than Wisconsin
| as a whole.
| managerclass wrote:
| If by diversity you mean segregated:
|
| https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/milwaukee/2019/
| 01/...
| rangersanger wrote:
| like almost every other state in America, Wisconsin is
| majority white unless you're in the cities. Milwaukee is
| majority minority.
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Americans
| codemac wrote:
| ... Overland Park is 82% White[0]. It's one of the wealthiest
| white suburbs of Kansas City, and has been for decades.
|
| I appreciate your experience is different than the
| statistics, but it's quite literally less diverse than the US
| as a whole, and less than Minneapolis and many other
| midwestern cities.
|
| [0]: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/overlandparkcitykansas
| [deleted]
| drewcoo wrote:
| From a quick look at what DDG feeds me, Overland Park is a
| nice Kansas City suburb. With a bunch of higher education
| institutions. And a botanical garden! This place seems like a
| midwestern outlier.
|
| The town I grew up in (unnamed Iowa) now offers to pay remote
| workers to move there. The town has declined since I remember
| it in the 1980s as a fortune 500 factory town with a
| population of about 15,000. It has never had a botanical
| garden. It was always safest to be white, straight, and
| normie in whatever way possible if you have to be there.
| [deleted]
| CountDrewku wrote:
| >if you're straight and white and "normal"
|
| Why did you feel it was necessary to put that in your comment?
| Are you upset that a specific skin color of people decided to
| migrate to the Midwest?
|
| Did you witness lgbtq or people of certain skin colors being
| run out of town or receiving some sort of prejudice? Or are you
| being bigoted and just saying that due to their specific skin
| color and life choices they want people with different
| lifestyles to not enjoy prosperity?
| bserge wrote:
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Did you witness lgbtq or people of certain skin colors
| being run out of town or receiving some sort of prejudice?
|
| It's been a pretty consistent report of people I know who are
| visibly not "straight and white and 'normal'" and whose prior
| US experience is limited to relatively cosmopolitan coastal
| areas who visit the Midwest (urban areas other otherwise)
| that not only does the WASP-normativity seem higher, but even
| minorities engage in more and more aggressive self-
| segregation from visibly different minorities, to the point
| of active avoidance on the street.
|
| Oddly, people who are or pass as "straight and white and
| 'normal'" are much less likely to report this, and often seem
| surprised to hear it from others.
| CountDrewku wrote:
| Oh, well then I guess those visiting coastal people must be
| bigots. Not surprising since they have a specific negative
| name for an entire area of the country.
|
| This is really some astounding hypocrisy. Reporting that a
| massive part of the country is 'insert prejudiced comment'
| due to their race, skin color, religion based on prejudiced
| anecdotal comments...
| slowmovintarget wrote:
| I miss the Minneapolis that was. I lived and worked there for a
| time after getting married. The city is not what it was ten years
| ago, though.
|
| Most of the restaurants I frequented (and they were exceptionally
| good) are gone. Crime has dramatically increased, including all
| time highs for murders in St. Paul, and Minneapolis three murders
| away from its all time high.
|
| I lived in an apartment in Minneapolis. I could walk just a block
| or two into downtown. It was a wonderful, vibrant city. A ten
| minute walk to Lake Calhoun, groceries down the street, my
| barber, and the ice cream shop right next to each other. It was
| my favorite of all the places I've lived. I just wish it was
| still as I recall it. Perhaps my perspective is too full from
| consuming news and has too little from current residents.
| coldpie wrote:
| > Perhaps my perspective is too full from consuming news and
| has too little from current residents.
|
| Yeah, you're pretty deep into "old man yells at clouds"
| territory here :) Turn off the news and come visit. The Twin
| Cities are still great. Maybe you can come discover some new
| favorite restaurants, we've got loads of great ones.
| paulcole wrote:
| > I just wish it was still as I recall it.
|
| Somehow the places we lived when we were 20-30 years old always
| seem worse when we look at them 10 years later.
| kerbs wrote:
| I also have the opposite view of Minneapolis 10-15 years ago.
|
| so much urban renewal has happened since then. It honestly
| became pretty run down in the core suburban sprawl/white
| flight years of the 90s. The last decade has been pretty
| amazing with renovations, neighborhood developments, and
| almost all of the surface parking lots turned into something
| far better.
| kerbs wrote:
| I live downtown (North Loop) with my wife and two daughters
| under 5.
|
| The crime narrative is strange, and the restaurant scene has
| never been better.
|
| The downtown _core_ isn't quite the same, but that's of course
| because nobody goes to the office anymore - but they're still
| building everywhere (including another 40+ tower on Nicollet)
| colechristensen wrote:
| I in uptown and got an email a few weeks ago explaining the
| bullet holes in the building, and still get emails from the U
| about armed robberies regularly and much more often than a
| decade before. There is no question crime rates are up
| significantly, police are too busy to respond to many calls,
| and even caught crime isn't being investigated, charged, or
| convicted anywhere near properly.
|
| The restaurant scene did take a significant covid dip and
| several of my favorite places are gone but there is still
| quite a lot and a few new things.
| ardme wrote:
| Yeah uptown got hit really hard. Maybe the other commenters
| don't live in uptown but I do and the crime issues are
| pretty wild since the riots. My neighbor was carjacked at
| gunpoint by a group of teenagers in our parking lot. You
| have to be very aware of your surroundings now. I'd say
| about half of the businesses have closed permanently around
| me.
|
| The Walgreens on 27th and Hennepin gets robbed at least
| once a month. One time they just shot up drive through
| windows and the employees left while they robbed the place.
| Luckily the glass is bulletproof on them. The cops don't
| seem to really respond things.
|
| One of the weirdest things was this summer where they were
| doing construction on 28th and Hennepin and there was a cop
| posted up there during the day. I asked him why and he said
| "because the construction workers were being assaulted and
| their tools were being stolen". And this is in a nice area
| right by Lake of the Isles.
|
| Deny it if you want, it's just like a political mess now
| because the DA will no longer bring a lot of prosecutions
| to trial it seems like.
| [deleted]
| xcskier56 wrote:
| Having lived in Minneapolis proper for the last 10 years and
| growing up nearby, the restaurant scene is VASTLY better than
| it was before. We used to have stuffy, overpriced, mediocre
| restaurants. Now we've gotten vibrant, new and creative places
| that aren't just serving the same old fair dressed up. Sure
| some of the old classics have closed, but there's always been a
| new, better place taking their spot. Case in point, Lucia's =>
| Sooki & Mimi. Lucias's was good, but Sooki & Mimi is phenomenal
| DrSteveBrule wrote:
| > I could walk just a block or two into downtown. It was a
| wonderful, vibrant city. A ten minute walk to Lake Calhoun
|
| Based on these data points, I estimate that you walk at least
| 15.6 mph.
| acqbu wrote:
| lol!
| DIVx0 wrote:
| Minneapolis is pretty small compared to "big" cities in other
| states but I do agree that this is an unlikely walk but a
| totally achievable bike ride.
|
| Also the lake's native Dakota name has been restored and
| locals call it Bde Maka Ska
| TameAntelope wrote:
| I don't understand why people quote the murder rates as any
| kind of indication of the city itself. Murders are _far and
| away_ being committed by people you have no association with to
| people you have no association with.
|
| Are you in a gang? No? You're fine. It's horrible and awful,
| but the way you've quoted it here is as if _your_ personal
| likelihood of being murdered has meaningfully changed, when it
| hasn 't (or maybe you rep tre tre crips or something, I don't
| know your life).
| jcims wrote:
| It's been close to 20 years since I was in Minnesota. I was
| there doing contract work for Wells Fargo and really enjoyed
| the city. I can't remember what it was called but I still tell
| people about the human habitrail on the second floor that you
| (well, presumably mostly 'we' unaccustomed visitors) can use to
| get around town when it's too damn cold outside.
| idreyn wrote:
| The skyways! They're fun and iconic, but in some ways they're
| the worst thing about downtown Minneapolis. Since so many
| office workers use them to get around, the streets feel dead
| and car-dominated even by the standards of American cities.
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