[HN Gopher] The State of External Retina Displays, [Almost] 2022...
___________________________________________________________________
The State of External Retina Displays, [Almost] 2022 Edition
Author : zain
Score : 115 points
Date : 2021-12-27 21:40 UTC (1 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.caseyliss.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.caseyliss.com)
| lxe wrote:
| Don't even get me started on brightness... good luck finding
| anything that's higher than 350 nits.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| Why do you need so much brightness in an indoor environment?
| Personally I've more frequently had the opposite problem, i.e.
| minimum brightness only going down to the 30-50 nits level,
| which is quite bright in dark-ish environments.
| Larrikin wrote:
| People are different? I found it very straining on my eyes
| when I worked at a job where people liked to keep most of the
| lights off and the monitor brightness low.
| kirilangov wrote:
| Eve Spectrum
|
| https://evedevices.com/pages/spectrum
| minimaul wrote:
| That's a 27" 4K, so it's already low PPI compared to the
| monitors in the article.
| [deleted]
| henvic wrote:
| I really wanted the 27-inch LG UltraFine 5K
| (https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-27md5kl-b-5k-uhd-led-
| monit...), but I heard many complains about it not being as
| reliable as you'd expect, then I decided to get the LG UltraFine
| 4K (https://amzn.to/3qs2pFW) a little over a year ago, and I
| don't regret at all spending so much more for a display, than I'd
| normally expect to.
|
| Now, I want to update to Apple's Pro Display XDR, but can't
| justify paying ~7 times more on it for now. Although 24-inch and
| 4K was a huge improvement for someone like me, used to only using
| a MacBook display (I spend the workday programming, and love
| photography), I still feel like 4K isn't enough.
|
| I can't comfortably open my editor/browser, while also watching a
| video, for example. For some time I've tried to use my MacBook 15
| Pro as a second display, but that didn't work either. I hate the
| fact that there're small differences in color/brightness, even
| though the quality of either individually is superb (the external
| is slightly better)... The only thing that helped a little bit
| with regards to using multiple displays was using the iPad to
| play videos thanks to AirPlay, but this is suboptimal.
| brandonmenc wrote:
| I have owned the LG 5K UltraFine monitor for 6 months and it's
| the greatest thing ever. I will never go back to 4K.
|
| I drive it with an OWC Thunderbolt 3 dock with CalDigit
| Thunderbolt cables and a maxed out 13" 2020 MacBook Pro, and as
| of the latest version of macOS Big Sur it is rock solid.
|
| It's mounted on a monitor arm, so I can't comment on the
| included stand.
| indymike wrote:
| A lot of this depends on the distance of the monitor to your
| face. High actual DPI matters more if the screen is close to your
| eyes. Do a 24" 4k is great at close range, but if you move the
| screen 8in-12in back, a 32in 4K can work just as well.
| conradev wrote:
| I will put another monitor into the mix because it is the first
| of its kind and might interest some:
| https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1621993-REG/lg_27ep95...
|
| It is a full 27" OLED panel for $$$ ($3,000), but it is not the
| highest DPI at only 4K resolution
| minimaul wrote:
| OLED isn't that great in the monitor space because you are
| _going_ to get burn in, it 's only a matter of 'how long?'.
| aichi wrote:
| Eizo Fortis Nova
| https://www.eizoglobal.com/products/foris/nova/sp/
| nabla9 wrote:
| I have no brand loyalty whatsoever, but all my monitors have
| been Eizo's Since I bought Eizo Nanao Trinitron CRT monitors in
| 1990s. I'm a lazy shopper and those things are high quality
| every way. I still have FlexScan EV2303W's from 2009 or 2010
| and use them daily.
| ____________g wrote:
| I have been waiting for good external Retina displays for
| _years_. That the situation has not improved after all this time
| is incredibly frustrating. Why is no display manufacturer [0]
| interested in setting itself apart by producing and marketing a
| lineup of reasonably priced external pixel-doubled (~200 ppi)
| displays? For some reason everything must be 16:9 and 4K with no
| regards to display size, resulting in some very awkward pixel
| densities. The fact that Apple is able to mass-manufacture a 5k
| display with a whole computer in it for just a little bit more
| than an UltraFine 5k is to me an indication that at least it's
| technically feasible.
|
| [0] There is LG, but these displays have their issues as the
| article explains.
| naikrovek wrote:
| it's a matter of connectors and display bandwidth. Apple's
| extra-expensive display doesn't use HDMI or DisplayPort
| connectors, it uses a proprietary connector.
|
| display bandwidth matters, and connectors are where display
| bandwidth goes to die. apple had to design a special one for
| the bandwidth requirements of that display.
|
| it's not so much a matter of panels, but display protocol
| bandwidth and connectors that allow it.
|
| even Microsoft have the Surface Studio, and it's _excellent_
| 4500x3000 display, and it 's only available as part of the
| Surface Studio because that's the cheapest way they can get the
| display bandwidth all the way to the screen. eliminate the
| connectors and hardwire it.
|
| this is also why laptops (especially apple laptops) have such
| good displays. they don't have to destroy the signal integrity
| with connectors, and they can use more wires to carry the
| signal than HDMI or DisplayPort allow.
|
| high resolution, high framerate monitors just won't happen over
| DisplayPort or HDMI without serious advances. I expect a new
| connector to appear before that.
| bluewalt wrote:
| Another major issue not mentioned with non-retina displays is
| that you have to chose between a decent on-screen text size and
| pixel scaling.
|
| For example, I use a a 4K 27" LG monitor. If I use native 4K
| resolution, the text is way too small. If I use 2:1 resolution,
| the text becomes too big and I lose real estate. I ended up with
| a scaled resolution with pixel approximation. I won't explain
| here why it may be a problem for some people, but it is.
| yrral wrote:
| Why is <220 ppi a dealbreaker? 27 inch 4k displays seem fine to
| me for retina and they are quite abundant. Though I've tried 32
| inches 4k, and there the resolution is not enough for text work.
|
| Dell has a 32 inch 8k display which is ~280 ppi in stock.
|
| https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-ultrasharp-32-8k-m...
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > Why is <220 ppi a dealbreaker?
|
| Because it's very blocky and not pleasant to use.
| minimaul wrote:
| If you're on macOS, your choice for a 27" 4K is realistically
| either the 'looks like 1080p' high DPI mode, or the 'looks like
| 1440p' high DPI mode. The 'looks like 1080p' mode makes all of
| the UI elements huge. The 'looks like 1440p' mode makes text
| slightly fuzzy as it's being downscaled from 5120x2880 to
| 3840x2160.
|
| It's not _terrible_ , but it's nowhere near as nice as the 27"
| 5K.
| bluewalt wrote:
| Exactly. I end up to get use to this fuzzy text, but the
| first time was like "Ughhh this is ugly".
| petschge wrote:
| That sounds like a MacOS problem, not a "220dpi is not
| enough" problem.
| minimaul wrote:
| This specific issue is definitely a macOS problem - instead
| of doing proper resolution independent rendering, macOS
| just renders at 2x the 'looks like' resolution, and then
| scales the result to fit the panel.
|
| But even on Windows, the choices at 27" 4K aren't great.
| 100% is too small. 200% is too large. 150% is quite nice,
| but I find apps regularly don't scale properly, and text
| still isn't as nice as 200% on a 5K display.
| __MatrixMan__ wrote:
| I disappointed that this was about monitors and not something
| that I could clip on my glasses that would project onto my
| retinas.
| abraxas wrote:
| Thank Apple for fucking up the term Retina Display. It used to
| mean something very specific until the marketing department at
| Apple overheard it. Same happened earlier to "real time".
| ds wrote:
| If you care about HDR, ironically enough there are only 4 options
| for a decent monitor as well- And almost all of them are nearly
| impossible to buy new. Some of these monitors are also years old
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCcSK3R8HcM
|
| *
|
| 27" 3840x2160 ASUS PG27UQ / ACER PREDATOR X27 (same panel in both
| monitors)
|
| 32" 3840x2160 ASUS PG32UQX
|
| 35" 3440x1440 ASUS PG35VQ
|
| 49" 5120x1440 Samsung Neo G9
| Invictus0 wrote:
| Get an iPad Pro. Problem solved.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| An iPad Pro is only 12.9" and you're stuck with one resolution.
| You're better off buying the 24" LG 4K (I think. Don't remember
| it being configurable.)
|
| That said, it makes a very good external monitor for mobile
| use.
| pedrocr wrote:
| By defining Retina as 220PPI most options are excluded as 4K at
| 27" or 32" is common but more isn't. A look at what Apple calls
| Retina though shows that angular density is a much better
| definition. The initial presentation by Jobs was about angular
| resolution and the actual screens follow it. PPI ranges from 218
| to 476 but angular density only between 57 to 92.
|
| So if you set a 27" or 32" screen at a decent distance you get
| "Retina" quality. If you want the screen closer maybe not.
| Unfortunately the market for more than 4K isn't really yet here
| for various reasons. Maybe if 8K catches on as a media format we
| take the next step. At that point only if you want to set the
| screen so close you can't view it all at once will it be worth it
| to go higher.
| jasonjmcghee wrote:
| LG 27GN950 seems like it hits a a lot of the criteria others are
| discussing. It is not 220 PPI though.
|
| 4K IPS at 144Hz (or 120Hz depending on video card)
|
| HDR
|
| 400 nits
|
| It also rotates to portrait mode, has a built in backlight for
| eyestrain, is essentially borderless- and it's $800-900.
|
| Have had it over a year with no issues.
| minimaul wrote:
| Is it actually HDR, or is it 'HDR'? I have another LG monitor
| that claims HDR support but really it just squishes the SDR
| content to make space for HDR - so it makes everything look
| _awful_.
| s_dev wrote:
| I also found it difficult to shop for a monitor in the past
| couple of years I ended up going for this:
| https://www.gigabyte.com/Monitor/AORUS-FV43U#kf
|
| My constraints were proper 4k (no compromised height resolution)
| -- the 4:3 ratio is nice but I was happy with most ratios.
| Overall at 43 inches it's big probably more suited for console
| gaming than PC but the 165Hz refresh rate makes it suitable for
| gaming.
| [deleted]
| urthor wrote:
| > Ridiculous Option: Apple Pro Display XDR
|
| I'll admit, a monitor that costs more than my first car is beyond
| affordable for 99% of the population.
|
| But saying that, many of the people reading this are pulling
| truly exotic salaries right now. After devoting untold hours to
| reaching the top of their profession.
|
| Let's say you're a professional earning $300k plus in software.
|
| You're often working 100% remote, using your monitor 8 hours a
| day, 5 days a week, _just for work_. Plus untold hours of
| HackerNews (strictly after 5pm of course).
|
| I just find that's truly not an unlikely situation to be in.
|
| Without reference to the technical merits of the Apple Display, I
| don't think dropping $5000 on a monitor is outlandish for any
| professional in the situation I've described.
|
| My hairdresser for example has a $4000 pair of _scissors_. He
| uses the damn things every day, and he sharpens them twice a day.
|
| Whilst it's not _essential_ , taking pride and investing in the
| tools of your trade is not a thing to frown upon.
| jstx1 wrote:
| > I just find that's truly not an unlikely situation to be in.
|
| Uhm, I would say that fully remote $300k+ jobs are still
| unlikely.
| hashmymustache wrote:
| Home computer displays for radiologists can cost well over
| $10K. Of course they dont have to pay for it themselves though.
| And they can make over $600K working from home reading images
| all day.
| querulous wrote:
| the problem with the apple xdr display isn't just the price
| though. it's not a good monitor for a lot of users. it's
| limited to 60hz, it's response time is really poor, it suffers
| from really obvious blooming and bleed at high brightness and
| it has bad off axis color accuracy and brightness. sure, if you
| care deeply about color accuracy and 6k resolution it's pretty
| good. these aren't the only metrics on which monitors are
| judged though
|
| apple does a really poor job of supporting external displays.
| there's virtually no good options if you want something with
| high refresh, good latency and reasonable pixel density and
| color reproduction
| AlcaDal wrote:
| How about the ASUS 32" PA329CV?
| djrogers wrote:
| Literally going the opposite direction there - 32" at 4k means
| huuuuge pixels...
| jstx1 wrote:
| Not knowing too much about monitors and trying to search for "I
| want a 24in monitor that looks somewhat similar to my macbook"
| has been kind of challenging. Especially when you're shopping
| online. So many variables to tweak, and I have no idea which
| matter and which don't. I just want something that looks good.
| alin23 wrote:
| Yep, having the same problem. I'd love an Ultrawide with
| comparable pixel density as the 14" Macbook Pro.
|
| I'm sitting on a very large database of monitor data coming from
| Lunar's diagnostics and error reporting (https://lunar.fyi)
|
| Maybe I should organize it into Postgres and then search for
| monitors with the PPI I want.
|
| Or is there any easier solution than Postgres for fast ingesting
| some JSONs and filtering by arbitrarily nested fields?
| d136o wrote:
| JQ can get you started without any db setup as you explore the
| data
| 41b696ef1113 wrote:
| Depending on what you mean by large, you can go very far with
| SQLite. It even has a JSON extension if you want to drop blobs
| into there.
| kenniskrag wrote:
| If you know sqlite there is also a json extension for
| filtering. Here a link to the example section:
| https://www.sqlite.org/json1.html#examples_using_json_each_a...
| 9dev wrote:
| I'd immediately go with Elasticsearch for stuff like that.
| minimaul wrote:
| I have one of the LG Ultrafine 5K on my 14" M1 Max Macbook Pro -
| it is far more reliable with that Mac than with the 2018 15" I
| was using it with before. It's also worth swapping the TB3 cable
| if you still have issues.
|
| After both of those I find it works absolutely flawlessly for me
| now, and it is comfortably the best external display I have ever
| used.
|
| I would adore any option that is even remotely as good.
| mgarfias wrote:
| Huh, I'll have to try the wife's new 14" mbp and see if that is
| better. Too bad I'm a year away from a refresh.
| flyingchipmann wrote:
| I would add LG CX/C1 48 inch. The lowest price has come down to
| 1000 usd + tax around recent month. It has all the features and
| packs a top tier oled panel.
| [deleted]
| djrogers wrote:
| That's basically a small TV - it's nowhere near retina, and 4k
| is barely acceptable at 1/4 that size.
| minimaul wrote:
| I find that bigger than 32" at desktop distances is
| uncomfortable at best, unfortunately. 27" is definitely the
| sweet spot for me.
| rbanffy wrote:
| When I'm using the laptop as a standalone unit, the built-in
| screen resolution makes a difference. When it's docked on my desk
| surrounded by two 24" monitors, I wouldn't be able to tell the
| difference except, perhaps, by very subtle cues in text
| rendering.
|
| I can, however, see clear artifacts on the two 100-dpi ish
| screens. A 150-dpi screen would work perfectly for me.
| jebronie wrote:
| I just want a 27" 5k display with 120hz and HDR 600 or better.
| rdl wrote:
| Every time I buy the LG 5K I feel a little sad (it's overpriced
| for what it is, outdated, and limited with non-Macs), but every
| time I use it, I'm happy with the purchase.
|
| Biggest downside (aside from the price) is extending the Apple
| lock-in.
| sroussey wrote:
| I have two. One has a bad burnin problem. It takes 30min to set
| and the rest of the day I see that original image. The other
| has a weird color wave.
|
| I used to buy an iMac 27 so I could have a great first screen.
| I'd like to go back or have an apple monitor again.
| x0x0 wrote:
| I've also had a great experience w/ this monitor.
|
| As mentioned elsewhere, it and my mac are sensitive to the
| cable, so it's worth trying a couple if they give problems.
| (More apple idiocy: what if we put the same connector
| everywhere, but made devices super sensitive to some qualities
| of the cables, connectors, or who knows what -- there's
| definitely no way this will be super confusing for users!)
| Groxx wrote:
| This is also somewhat usb-c in a nutshell. Not all ports or
| cables are made equally, and the spec very much allows that.
| bartq wrote:
| A bit of offtopic: Mini LED screens honestly are disappointing
| for me to some degree. The blooming is a real thing and I can see
| it every time there is bright content on dark background. I do
| accept it because there is no other better option really. I can
| see this blooming both on MacBook Pro 16 M1 Max and on iPad Pro
| 12.9. It looks especially bad when bright contents moves slowly,
| you can see those backlight zones edges and you can observe one
| zone gets turned off and other on. Awful.
|
| I also own Gigabyte AERO 15 OLED laptop and I must admit I prefer
| this screen over Apple's. White text on black looks amazing and
| to be honest feels a bit magical, like a thing floating in the
| air, especially if I look on this screen in a dark room. Code,
| terminal content looks amazing. It's only 60Hz though, but for
| mostly static coding 60Hz is enough. Ubuntu works really well, so
| I don't have to deal with Windows for programming work if I don't
| have to.
|
| I'm tempted to buy LG OLED 27EP950, it's expensive, but honestly
| I'd pay those money to reproduce Gigabyte AERO 15 OLED experience
| on 27 screen. But I know it won't happen, because LG screen will
| have worse pixel density, it's only 4K. It should be 5K at least,
| or even 5.5K or even 6K.
| mundial86 wrote:
| I am hanging on to dear life with a slowly dying Dell UP2715K in
| the hope that 2022 will be the year someone finally makes a
| decent replacement for the glossy 5k displays that came out years
| ago.
|
| The fact that the pro xdr only has one port makes it a non
| starter for me. I need to connect more than one device to my
| monitors.
| mgarfias wrote:
| I've got a pair of the ultrafine 5ks. I'd happily trade them in
| on something that I can plug into and know that it will power up
| the display reliably.
|
| Right now if I take my laptop off somewhere and come back, who
| knows if they'll both power up. I'm frequently stuck on one
| display and no amount of unplugging and reconnecting or swearing
| helps.
| eigenvalue wrote:
| Maybe try a powered usb-c hub and connect the displays to that
| instead of directly to the laptop?
| minimaul wrote:
| You can't. These are thunderbolt 3 displays.
|
| edit: and they use too much bandwidth to daisy chain with
| anything else, too.
| tcas wrote:
| I have 2x LG Ultrafine 5Ks as well.
|
| I found the USB-C connector wears down over time and causes
| display and power issues. I've reflowed the connector itself,
| and am looking at doing a complete connector swap soon. The
| mechanicals of an active USB-C cable puts stress on the joints
| and causes them to crack and create unreliable connections. I
| wish there was a way to lock the connector in and use something
| else as strain relief.
| wikibob wrote:
| The only currently acceptable external display is the LG 27-inch
| 5K.
|
| Sadly the firmware is flaky, the webcam sucks, it has huge
| bezels, and is very thick.
|
| Rumor is apple might have a new consumer priced external display
| next year. Let's hope it's true.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| How is the contrast and BLB on that panel? The other LG panels
| in this area seem to have sacrificed basically everything for
| low reaction times. Also, just one input, and that being
| Thunderbolt on top, won't work for a lot of people.
|
| Edit: Oh I see, that's one of the LG-but-really-for-Apple-only
| displays.
| dev_tty01 wrote:
| The 5K monitor model number and presumably the actual monitor
| has been updated a couple of times. Any chance the most
| recently updated design actually has corrected those issues?
| izacus wrote:
| So I have a 28" 4K display (USB-C, ethernet, the whole shebang)
| and I don't notice a massive difference between that one and the
| MacBook one. Those displays are widely available and pretty cheap
| too.
|
| Is there something wrong with me that I don't see a massive
| improvement between that PPI and the MBP one? To the point where
| I'd lose my mind about it and demand 5K there?
| b9a2cab5 wrote:
| You probably sit farther away from your screen than most
| people. At least for me there's a pretty binary threshold where
| you can either see pixels or not, which makes a huge difference
| for text smoothness.
| never_a-pickle wrote:
| The computer monitor market is at the mercy of gamers who want
| 1080p-1440p if it means getting 600fps in a game rather than
| 150fps at higher resolutions. It's why since 2015 there has been
| an arms race of refresh rates rather than of resolution. We had
| 4-5k panels at retina in 2015, market conditions could have had
| us with much higher quality panels if the entire thing wasn't
| catered to young, cash-strapped gamers whose opportunity cost
| when putting money towards a monitor is to put money towards a
| GPU.
|
| Thankfully, as more and more public figures begin using OLED TVs
| instead of computer monitors, and as the monitor market takes
| after the larger consumer TV market, we will start to see better
| technologies compete with each other like OLED and FALD/miniLED.
|
| It's a horrible time to buy a monitor right now, if you could
| wait even a year you should do so.
|
| But keep in mind the relativity of "retina". It depends just as
| much on viewing distance as it does PPI. There are several handy
| charts you can view online relating the minimum noticeable
| viewing distance based on PPI.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| eckmLJE wrote:
| Although you make an ok point, you're greatly exaggerating FPS.
| I'm on a beautiful 1440p 144hz LG and I really only need
| 150fps. This still often requires less-than-ultra video
| settings even with a 3080 ti. There is a very small niche of
| competitive gamers who want 240hz at 1080p and the fps that
| justifies it.
| CuriousSkeptic wrote:
| Oh there are people who want way more
| https://blurbusters.com/blur-busters-law-amazing-journey-
| to-...
| saxonww wrote:
| Isn't this the entire esports community though?
|
| edit: This was intended to be a serious question. I thought
| the esports folks were mostly interested with minimizing
| input latency and maximizing framerate, to the exclusion of
| most other concerns. ESPN covers esports tournaments now,
| sometimes on the front page of espn.com, so I thought it was
| more popular than perhaps it is.
| Macha wrote:
| Being a small niche really not mutually exclusive with the
| eSports community, unless you extend the eSports community
| to everyone who has ever played LoL or CS:GO. I think more
| people max out settings on those games than minimise them
| for the extra FPS still.
| naikrovek wrote:
| there are 360Hz monitors, now, and they are likely to sell
| well as soon as the silicon shortage eases, if they aren't
| already.
|
| the real problem is that a 1080p monitor at 360Hz requires
| six times the bandwidth of a standard 1080p60 monitor, while
| a 120Hz 4k UHD monitor requires _eight times_ the bandwidth
| of a 1080p60 monitor.
|
| it's easier to reach the FPS targets incrementally than it is
| to reach the resolution targets in larger jumps.
| R0b0t1 wrote:
| The driver is really what manufacturers want to sell. We saw
| this with those awful 13xx by 768 screens no one wanted. They
| made loads of them and then had to sell them.
|
| What I suspect is really going on is it's easier to overclock
| screens than it is to increase yield on high resolutions.
| Macha wrote:
| As some of them have found (e.g. Linus window snapping burn in,
| in under six months), OLEDs have real drawbacks for use as
| standard desktop use displays. It's why even Apple don't use
| OLEDs on their Macs yet, who you would expect to do so if it
| was just a matter of "more money = more premium" with no
| deference to the gaming use case.
| [deleted]
| distantsounds wrote:
| Dell P2415Q. https://www.dell.com/en-
| us/work/shop/cty/dell-24-ultra-hd-4k... you can still find it in
| stock on Amazon despite Dell not carrying it anymore. I have one,
| it's a glorious IPS panel for photo editing.
| ModernMech wrote:
| I just picked up a pair of P3222QE monitors. Kind of pricey but
| hands down the best monitors I've owned. I think it's too big
| to be "Retina" at 4K, but I really can't see any pixels.
|
| I still find it hard to believe though that I can't change the
| brightness via the keyboard though in state of the art
| monitors. Does anyone know of any monitors where this is
| possible, or do they mostly require you to go through the
| terrible built in controls?
|
| https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-32-4k-usb-c-hub-mo...
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| Can confirm that I've had more than a decade of very satisfying
| experience of using Dell displays. They have a very predictable
| menu and just work. Soundbar is a very good solution if you
| don't want speakers messing your desktop.
| mwidell wrote:
| I have this monitor. It is insane value for money and gives you
| a beautiful picture.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-12-27 23:00 UTC)