[HN Gopher] Takeaways from looking for a new senior role in tech
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Takeaways from looking for a new senior role in tech
Author : braza
Score : 77 points
Date : 2021-12-27 19:49 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (philcalcado.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (philcalcado.com)
| lordnacho wrote:
| Definitely get comfortable with independent recruiters. I've
| written a few blurbs about this to people who've contacted me
| here on HN.
|
| Basically the incentives make sense, to a point. They get paid a
| quarter of your first annual compensation. So they want to place
| someone, and they will do a lot for you if you are a profile that
| seems like a match for the roles they are covering.
|
| Note it's important that you find people who actually have the
| goods. There are a lot of recruiters who seem to think spamming
| peoplev with crap is a way to get placements.
|
| The thing to do is look at the jobs you like, for finance that's
| on efinancial and one or two others, and then call the most
| pertinent recruiters. Don't use the application systems, they're
| a black hole. Get the person on the phone, sell yourself,
| hopefully get some interviews lined up.
|
| The really good recruiters will keep the relationship open. They
| call me now and again to check my status (I'm also a hiring
| manager prospect), they call to ask me technical questions, and
| they get me to refer people I know as well. It's actually a lot
| of work if you consider the average candidate is only going to
| change jobs a few times in their life.
|
| And yes, keep organised, try to know where you are with each
| firm. It's important not to get introduced by different
| recruiters to the same firm, it messes with that incentive I
| mentioned and the recs are scared of being the second person to
| intro someone.
| master_yoda_1 wrote:
| I ignore all of this. The OP is coming from a no name company and
| don't have any expertises. If you are senior and you don't have
| any expertises or deep experience in a domain, you will have
| tough time getting a job even in this hot market.
| daok wrote:
| You should a little negative but I read you twice and there is
| some truth in your message. I am actually working in one of the
| popular FANG company. I receive solicitations every day (3-10).
| I have no time to answer everyone. I have over 15 years of
| experience and the few times I decided to reply I realized two
| things. First, once you start giving a range of compensation
| the discussion stop rapidly for 90% of the recruiters. The
| market is "hot" but for folks that are not that senior (or with
| lower expectation that I have maybe). The second thing is that
| when it goes well and we start the process that everything is
| super slow motion. Positive feedbacks but every step take weeks
| to move on. At a point where I lost any excitement. Hence, I
| suppose my field is not such in demand... that engineers with
| less years of experience get these positions faster than me
| since I am strict about my expectation. I might have the wrong
| conclusion here but I found that this "hot market" is not "hot"
| for the whole range of expertises and years of experience.
| decafninja wrote:
| I've been actively interviewing for almost the past five
| years. I recently concluded my job search and basically
| landed my dream job (or very close to it). However I was
| extremely picky about what I was looking for which probably
| made my search take so long.
|
| If I was less picky, I could probably have gotten a new job
| at a decent, but not spectacular, company, with probably at
| max, ~3 months of active interviewing.
|
| Likewise one of my friends is what I'd like to describe as a
| "master networker". The way he can easily and quickly network
| his way into a new job is shocking - often times without an
| leetcode interview. These jobs typically tend to pay at least
| above average (hedge funds). However the caveat is that he
| has to be very unpicky about the exact nature of the role,
| sometimes working with very boring or unsexy tech stacks for
| example.
| datavirtue wrote:
| I spent two years looking and then just threw in the towel
| and took a job at GE. They turned out to have a far more
| inflated view of themselves than was warranted or even
| healthy...so that only lasted a few years. Consulting now
| with one of the few boutique firms in my city...which has
| been fairly nice.
| lkbm wrote:
| Yes, I suspect there's a lot of title inflation going on in
| the industry.
|
| I have a Senior title (at a "no name" company) and can
| probably get a Senior title elsewhere (I also get recruitment
| emails for those all the time), but perhaps only for some
| values of "Senior".
| [deleted]
| sombremesa wrote:
| +1, but that's the audience which makes this an article worth
| writing.
|
| For people with strong resumes, it's hard to leave home without
| tripping on the offer letters jammed under your front door.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Size matters not. Luminous beings are we, not this crude
| matter.
| martinky24 wrote:
| How is SeatGeek a no name company?
| lkbm wrote:
| I hadn't heard of it, but he also had Director titles at
| Meetup, WeWork, and DigitalOcean, which I very much have.
| (Also Buoyant, but I don't recognize that one either.)
| juliansimioni wrote:
| Phil is a great person and previously had director of
| engineering/product roles at Digital Ocean, Meetup/Wework, and
| Soundcloud. It's not worth dismissing his advice out of hand :)
| decafninja wrote:
| I recall having a brief chat with him at a QCon; believe he
| was at WeWork at the time. Great guy!
| [deleted]
| master_yoda_1 wrote:
| whiplash451 wrote:
| A more constructive approach would be to elaborate on what you
| find misleading in the article.
| smolder wrote:
| I did the exact same thing with a spreadsheet. Pursuing only the
| few roles I could keep in my head at a time was not keeping me
| busy and was letting a lot slip through the cracks. It was
| incredibly helpful to take a systematic approach, to track who
| I'd talked to, save references to job descriptions and background
| information, and to separate by tech stack, locale, etc.
| thr0wawayf00 wrote:
| > Independent headhunters and recruiters are a valuable resource
|
| I had an experience with an independent recruiter that went so
| poorly that I haven't been able to take those kinds of people
| seriously since.
|
| A few years back, I was recruited to an up-and-coming startup in
| the healthcare space in a senior role. It was a massive pay
| increase, meaningful equity, and a company name I was proud to
| put on my resume.
|
| An independent firm reached out to me about the role and I was
| definitely interested. One thing I noticed while doing my
| independent research was that lots of people had very poor
| Glassdoor reviews of the company, basically comparing it to
| Theranos in terms of its culture, constant firings, cult-like
| CEO, etc. I reached out to several former employees to discuss
| their experience and could not get one to talk to me about
| working there. Meanwhile, I was hearing from the recruiters that
| they hired a new exec team and most complaints were not relevant
| to the current situation there.
|
| I brought the complaints up with the recruiter and the company
| during my interview process, and they both told me it was just a
| couple disgruntled former employees trying to make the company
| look bad. The recruiter offered to put me in touch with others
| they placed at the company, but I couldn't view them as objective
| sources.
|
| I started the gig and it took me all of two weeks to realize the
| company was in fact firing people constantly and I had been
| completely lied to by the recruiter and the company.
|
| As much as I want to believe that there are recruiters out there
| that look out for devs, the reality is that software talent is
| the product in that relationship and there aren't a lot of
| financial incentives to ensure transparency going into these
| professional relationships. Recruiters get paid when you sign,
| which creates an inherent conflict of interest when you're
| looking to them as a trusted resource.
| throwaway75787 wrote:
| You could have done worse than two weeks. The former employees
| who would not talk were probably under a non-disparagement
| agreement from their severance - and that agreement under a
| non-disclosure agreement.
| to11mtm wrote:
| In this case however, the relative silence is a good
| indicator.
|
| Usually, even if one leaves a place and can't share their
| grief they will at least try to point out a positive.
|
| That said, phrasing such as "You'll become a world class VB6
| Developer" is a lovely way to let people know what they are
| in for in a way that is not disparaging, per-se.
| pjc50 wrote:
| Yes, it's a two-sided market like estate agents (realtors) and
| used car salespeople. But without enough turnover to do
| statistical satisfaction management like Uber. And the dating
| company problem that satisfied customers don't come back.
|
| Most of them are just trying to churn you through the sales
| process quickly; some are outright scammers (if you've not had
| to blacklist a recruitment firm you've probably not done much
| hiring); and a very few are absolutely gold who will matchmake
| better than automated systems. Those people deserve positive
| word-of-mouth.
| libraryofbabel wrote:
| To clarify, "senior role" here means a senior management role
| (the author is a Senior Director Of Engineering) rather than
| Senior Software Engineer, as probably most folks will read it.
| Might want to update the title to "senior management role" to
| make that plain.
| qrohlf wrote:
| > Recruiters love phone calls and don't like doing things over
| email or text. This means that it is very easy to get overwhelmed
| by the number of recruiters trying to call you, and we will
| explore time management a little further down the text.
|
| This has been my experience as well, and while I understand the
| desire for introductory "sales mode" type calls, I think it's
| progressed past that point to something nearly pathological.
|
| As an example, I recently had a recruiter that I was previously
| in contact with over email cold-call me while I was skiing,
| trying to schedule a meeting with a hiring manager (I picked up
| the call because I thought it might be one of the people in my
| group that I didn't have in my contacts). When I requested she
| please send me an email to schedule the meeting, as I was out of
| the office, I got an email where she _sent an email to schedule
| the phone call, to then schedule the meeting over the phone_. It
| was 100% the least efficient way to do this, and only happened
| because of this illogically strong preference for phone calls
| that recruiters seem to have...
| afarrell wrote:
| The goal isn't to maximize efficiency. It is to increase human
| connection. Why?
|
| 1. They want you to feel a sense of trust to increase the
| probability of taking additional steps in the process.
|
| 2. They are mostly extroverts who want to hear someone talk
| about their career aspirations -- for the same emotional
| reasons that coaches want to see people learn.
| tomrod wrote:
| Phone calls are done to prevent paper trails. I just send a
| list of questions to be answered when such requirements are not
| meaningful.
| lordnacho wrote:
| Phone calls are synchronous. You have each others attention,
| questions can be answered quickly. Also the big one is that
| hard to answer questions will die in an async setting. What's
| your current salary, why did you leave your last job so soon,
| anything that creates a desire to procrastinate with an answer.
| tdeck wrote:
| Questions like these may be appropriate1 to ask in a
| scheduled interview. It's completely not respectful to pepper
| a person's week with multiple unscheduled "quick chats" or
| callbacks. If they want to schedule something that's what
| calendly is for.
|
| 1The salary question is illegal in some places and kinda
| shady in the others.
| tarunupaday wrote:
| I like the idea of going through independent headhunters. Does
| anybody know how to find good headhunters, though?
| alxmdev wrote:
| I always thought the preference for phone calls over e-mails is
| so there's no written account of anything that might be
| convenient to backtrack on in the future.
| mavelikara wrote:
| No. Phone calls are more personal than emails. Some people
| like that.
|
| For everyone complaining here about getting phone calls,
| there is another half who'd jibe "Damn, another templatized
| email. Why should I be interested if you haven't put any time
| of yours into communicating with me??"
|
| TL;DR: programers are hard to please. No good deed goes
| unpunished.
| csydas wrote:
| I don't think it's that simple really; it seems like people
| (not just programmers) are hard to please because the
| circumstances and available time differ from day to day,
| and different conversations are better sometimes in email
| and others on a call.
|
| I'm very protective of my time in general because I tend to
| be involved in many things: sometimes technical,
| bureaucratic, sometimes internal-political, and so many
| more. Each category requires a different part of my
| attention/focus which I'm not always readily able to shift
| to, or more importantly, would rather not shift to as I'm
| more preoccupied with a different category.
|
| Most importantly, the majority of the time all these calls
| have one common denominator; the requestor wants/needs
| something from me, not the other way around.
| Wanting/needing my help or input isn't something wrong in
| and of itself, but if it's not reciprocal and especially if
| it's not something I'm obligated to do, I absolutely tend
| to be pretty defensive of my time.
|
| It's perfectly common in modern business to exploit
| people's tendency towards good faith interpretations and
| our aversion to conflict, and disengaging from
| situations/requests that aren't one's responsibility is
| something many people have difficulty with. (Just think in
| your work place if you know someone who just has a hard
| time saying "no" and over-commits themselves constantly)
| And it's a skill to identify these situations and
| gracefully disengage depending on the person who is
| creating the situation in the first place.
|
| When there are complaints about a template email, the
| opposite of that isn't a phone call, it's taking the time
| to state a point clearly and directly and showing that it
| has specific relevance to you and justifying your
| time/attention. A conversation can be just as "template" as
| any email, even more so sometimes when you are listening to
| someone who speaks only in aphorisms but cannot go deeper
| than that. ("You have a chance to get in on the ground
| floor of something truly revolutionary!", "It's a high-
| paced high-reward environment that a 10x-er like you can
| thrive in, and the growth opportunities are limitless!", or
| even we can think of the hey-day of descriptions along the
| lines of "the Uber of _____") If the conversation lacks
| substance or purpose to someone specific and relies on
| general advertisement like attention grabs to keep you
| going, it doesn't matter what the medium is, the
| conversation simply offers next to no value.
|
| A phone call doesn't mean personal by any means, it just
| means a slightly higher amount of attention and a situation
| that is sometimes difficult for people to exit. It has it's
| time and place, but far too many people exploit the good
| nature of others to peddle some agenda that serves only
| themselves. Absolutely, we should be more protective of our
| time/attention, and we should be more respectful of other
| people's time/attention
| 9dev wrote:
| I mean, all I expect is a mail written by someone
| personally, referencing at least any of my work, offering a
| job I'm actually qualified for and would fit previous
| experience. Receiving fifty mails for a senior Java
| developer is pretty jarring if there's no single Java role
| on your CV... Is that too much to ask from recruiters?
| [deleted]
| indymike wrote:
| > This has been my experience as well, and while I understand
| the desire for introductory "sales mode" type calls, I think
| it's progressed past that point to something nearly
| pathological.
|
| I don't pay attention to unsolicited phone calls, so recruiters
| might as well be yelling at an empty chair when they call. My
| email is spam filtered, automatically sorted and tagged, so
| unsolicited recruiting goes directly to the trash. I've had a
| few really positive interactions that started via SMS and led
| to an accepted call from a recruiter.
| gorgoiler wrote:
| Every call you take is an opportunity for you to bolster your
| final asking price. Use calls to your advantage.
|
| The recruiter might not be party to the final negotiation, but
| they'll be a net positive at hiring meetings if you've got them
| in your corner.
|
| Recruiters will want to talk on the phone at every stage, not
| necessarily for long periods of time, but certainly frequently.
| They are constantly gauging how you feel as a candidate, and
| getting the measure of how to close you once you get an offer.
| __turbobrew__ wrote:
| I have had many similar experiences. A recruiter contacts me
| via email regarding an open position, I ask for details in the
| email reply. They send me an email back saying we should
| schedule a call so they can answer my questions. I'm not even
| asking hard questions just "what is the salary range", "when
| are you looking to fill the position", "how many are on the
| team", etc.
|
| I usually don't waste my time with recruiters who don't answer
| the most basic questions via email.
| datavirtue wrote:
| Perhaps it's a filter to make sure they don't move further
| with a candidate who is not serious? And like most
| things...there are likely few good confluent reasons for it
| despite none of the reasons influencing eachother. Some that
| others have mentioned so far.
| nicholasjarnold wrote:
| I have a feeling it's a sales tactic which seeks to purposely
| use up a candidate's time with the hope that the candidate
| falls victim to the sunk cost fallacy.
|
| Desired inner monologue I think they hope to generate in us:
| "I've already spent 3 calls and a couple of hours talking to
| <recruiter>, so I might as well continue on with the process
| lest I end up wasting all that time."
|
| disclosure: I'm a dev and not a recruiter, so take this with a
| grain of salt.
| whiplash451 wrote:
| I would tend to agree. My intuition is also that (1) some
| headhunters might use time-spent-on-the-phone as a metric
| linked to bonuses (think: click as a proxy for sales in
| online advertising) and (2) the phone lets headhunter gather
| intel that you end up leaking in the discussion and that you
| would not leak via email. Some have great tactics to make you
| speak "now that you're on the call".
| decafninja wrote:
| The worst are the ones that will somehow dig up your company
| desk phone # and call you in the middle of the day at work.
|
| Is this something unique to the personalities of people that
| thrive at sales jobs? I've encountered this sort of behavior
| with real estate agents, car salesmen*, and of course, third
| party headhunter/recruiters. They love phone calls, will try to
| get you on the phone no matter what, and actively try to avoid
| e-mails/text/etc.
|
| * although, I recently purchased a car a few weeks ago, and
| nearly all my communication with the salesman was done via
| e-mail and text. Very pleasant experience, but I wonder if this
| is the new norm, or if he was a unique exception.
| afarrell wrote:
| Firstly: http://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html
|
| Secondly: Yes, people who like talking with people tend to go
| into careers that primarily involve talking to people.
| mqnfred wrote:
| Thank you for the wisdom!
| whiplash451 wrote:
| The article is sound but I am on the fence regarding external
| headhunters.
|
| The arguments supporting their use (e.g. hiring company does want
| to leak information) seem weak.
|
| I would tend to think that a strong hiring company should be able
| to bypass this information leakage on their own and own the
| process. Using an external headhunter does not prevent the
| leakage that much and removes ownership and control from the
| hiring company's hands.
|
| As a senior lead, being approached by an external head hunter has
| always triggered a knee-jerk negative reaction with me.
|
| I would not mind being proven wrong.
| nickff wrote:
| I am not a big fan of head-hunters, as the ones I've talked to
| seem to act like used-car salesmen (deceptive and plain slimy).
| That said, external recruiters do make sense for small and
| growing companies who haven't sorted out an internal recruiting
| system yet.
| whichdan wrote:
| Keeping a spreadsheet is such a good idea - during my last search
| I was talking to a dozen different companies initially, and it
| would have been impossible to keep on top of everything without
| some sort of organization.
| mgkimsal wrote:
| years ago I went further and created a full web app to
| manage/track. it could manage email templates, send out emails
| with link tracking, had some ways to keep track of
| opportunities, let me keep multiple versions of a resume on
| hand, etc. Was moderately useful, as years before, I'd done
| 'spreadsheet' stuff, and that was painful. 3-4 weeks, 120+
| outreaches, very few replies, etc.
| lordnacho wrote:
| I've got a big Trello from my most recent search. It's the
| perfect mix of flexible structure, ease of use, and easy to
| scan.
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