[HN Gopher] My Path to Financial Independence as a Software Engi...
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My Path to Financial Independence as a Software Engineer
Author : ingve
Score : 314 points
Date : 2021-12-26 09:55 UTC (13 hours ago)
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(TXT) w3m dump (software.rajivprab.com)
| anm89 wrote:
| 625k a year. On my budget i could save a million in about 2.5
| years on that income. Pretty mind blowing.
|
| Good for him. He got a good hand but he also clearly played it
| very well.
|
| Adults whining that other adults make amounts of money that they
| dont like is cringe worthy
| [deleted]
| bmitc wrote:
| The article doesn't really elaborate that well on the inflection
| point, that is where the author nearly doubled an already six
| figure salary while also making a career change.
| CloudRecondite wrote:
| Congrats to OP! Most of this resonated with me and is good
| advice. Perhaps some things like getting a Masters degree did not
| (I'm American with only an undergrad CS degree). Huge props for
| maintaining the same lifestyle and goals as earnings increased. I
| wish that was my case lol! Most people's life circumstances will
| never allow this level of success. On the other hand I also see
| many years of hard work and dedication that many commenting about
| luck could follow but choose not to or don't realize is available
| to them. So for anyone discounting this as luck I challenge you
| to reconsider.
| kubb wrote:
| Good for you :) Last couple of jobs had particularly good salary.
| You also made the right investments.
|
| I'm living without a car in a shitty apartment, no family, I even
| rarely vacation, but I didn't save half as much as you did.
| mwattsun wrote:
| Let me add
|
| 1) get a prenup before marriage because there's a 50/50 chance
| you'll lose half in divorce (at least in California.) This is not
| very romantic so it's not something I ever considered, but it's
| recommended to wealthy persons by lawyers.
|
| 2) don't become an alcoholic or drug addict. If you think you
| might be developing a problem, own up to it, seek help and go to
| rehab if necessary. This includes gambling addictions. A cocaine
| and gambling habit is probably the quickest way to become broke
| again.
| odiroot wrote:
| > get a prenup before marriage because there's a 50/50 chance
| you'll lose half in divorce (at least in California.)
|
| Some countries outright ignore them anyway -- last I've heard
| England and Wales (Scotland still holding them valid).
| incognition wrote:
| Real tip is don't have kids. Corollary to your number 1
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| I think it basically just boils down to live for yourself,
| and don't share anything with anyone.
| mwattsun wrote:
| I don't agree with this because you want to have kids if you
| are to have any chance of anyone caring about you when you
| are old. I guess some might be satisfied with people caring
| about the money you have when your old, potentially leaving
| some of it to them, but that's not my cup of tea.
| stocknoob wrote:
| It's nice to bring someone into existence so they can serve
| you. And if your kid is disabled?
|
| Your retirement plan should work regardless of requiring
| you breed live-in caretakers.
| detaro wrote:
| "caring about" != "caretakers"
| mwattsun wrote:
| Right, I didn't say caretakers. You can hire those to
| come in daily. Another nice option money buys is a great
| luxury senior living home. A good one starts at $3500 a
| month but typically costs more (while the average cost
| for a senior living community in Santa Cruz, CA is
| $5,595)
|
| https://www.merrillgardens.com/senior-living/ca/santa-
| cruz/s...
|
| https://www.dominicanoaks.com/
| bradlys wrote:
| Better: Just don't get legally married and don't live in a
| common law state. Prenups aren't enforceable. Judges can throw
| them out and ignore them whenever they feel. I don't plan to
| ever get married due to these factors.
|
| Another option for the drugs thing is to never do drugs or
| drink alcohol. I haven't ever done any and I've managed to
| avoid addiction my entire life. I still have fun - I am
| actually considered the fun and lively person of many friend
| groups.
| vecinu wrote:
| I don't disagree with you because I've gone through a divorce
| that halved my net worth but I don't think "don't live in a
| common law state" is decent advice.
|
| If you ignore all of California, you miss out on higher
| compensation and interesting work opportunities. Should you
| live your life such that you limit your opportunities? I
| don't think so.
|
| I don't think ignoring serious relationships altogether or
| avoiding children because of the potential financial headache
| they could cause is a healthy way of thinking about your
| future, purpose and what you want, just my 2 cents.
| bradlys wrote:
| California is not a common law state.
|
| I am not purposing avoiding serious relationships either.
| I'm proposing avoiding the legal contracts that will not do
| you any good.
| novok wrote:
| Also to add, when your income starts getting into tech
| amounts, it's actually MORE tax efficient to not be
| married than to be married unless your spouse does not
| work. Also there is nothing preventing you getting rings,
| having a wedding and having a marriage relationship.
| bachmeier wrote:
| _Sees initial salary in 2009 (peak recession) was $100,000_
|
| _Sees last salary was $625,000_
|
| _Chuckles and closes the article about achieving financial
| independence_
| ix101 wrote:
| The article gives some general advice on how to manage your
| personal wealth. Probably the exact figures could have been
| expressed as percentage increases to give the article more
| appeal. However, for budding engineers in the early stage of
| their career it gives some idea of what is potentially
| achievable (in US).
| KptMarchewa wrote:
| Like what? That you can save ton when you earn 500-600k to
| have few millions in your net worth? Okay, but where is
| anything new in the article.
|
| If anything, some of the advice doesn't make any sense. Like,
| saving extremely on the low income. Whatever he has saved in
| the first six years of his career would be offset by just
| working one year more.
| comprev wrote:
| The fresh graduate salary for 100k is higher than the majority of
| US workers will peak during their entire career of 50 years
| (adjusted for inflation).
|
| Think about that for a second.
| luxurytent wrote:
| Yes. My friend and I are both self taught engineers (as are
| several others in our social circle -- all coming from similar
| roots and places)
|
| We are continuously flabbergasted how much we are paid, and
| it's not even FAANG levels; still, it's more than many other
| skilled and important roles in the workforce.
|
| Part of me understands that there's still a lot of money to be
| made and thus, salaries should continue to be high but other
| parts of me wonder (especially with increased ability to work
| anywhere) when/if we'll see salaries normalize.
| uejfiweun wrote:
| Salaries won't decrease until the demand of people to work in
| tech eclipses the demand of society for new tech. This works
| both ways. If a ton of people suddenly become interested in
| coding, this could pop the bubble. And if society suddenly
| stops demanding new technology (perhaps due to some
| catastrophic hack), then the bubble pops as well. The scary
| thing is that the latter is probably more likely to happen
| than the former.
| comprev wrote:
| The high demand is for experienced developers and not
| juniors. In recent years there has been an uptick in coding
| interest and the pool of newcomers is bigger than ever
| before. However, the _quality_ of this torrent of new
| developers is seen to be lower than previous years.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| Yes, the majority of American (and global) workers will not be
| able to retire in their 30s.
| soufron wrote:
| Mouahahahahahaahah.
|
| So the "path" to financial independance mainly involves getting a
| 100k/year from day one.
|
| I hope it will inspire and convince all these people who earn
| below the US median salary range of 47k/year. (and they range in
| all age categories, not 20 years old engineers).
|
| That guy is seriously delusional.
| soufron wrote:
| It would have been more interesting that he writes on how it
| was complicated for him to reach financial independence even
| when he earned 100k/year from day one and more than 600k/year
| 12 years later.
|
| Just imagine how it's impossible for someone with 47k/year!
|
| And that's the MEDIAN salary range in the US!
|
| But apparently that thought escaped him, whatever.
| rad_gruchalski wrote:
| Is he? In 2016 a US company from Atlanta I was doing work for
| was budgeting $95k+ for graduates with zero experience for
| junior positions in sdev.
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| The point is that it's not much of a path when you _start_ at
| $100k. If you 're earning $100k with zero experience, your
| salary cap is likely to be pretty high.
|
| With a starting salary that high I think you're very likely
| to easily achieve financial independence, barring a
| catastrophic fuck up.
| garmaine wrote:
| "How I bought a house: first I cut out my $5 Starbucks habit.
| That gave me the money, and more importantly the courage I
| needed to ask my parents to pay for my house. Which they did.
| Never underestimate what you can achieve!"
| phendrenad2 wrote:
| This is good info. Bookmarking it in case I ever make those pay
| grades (unlikely). Also if the current bubble pops during my
| lifetime, that'll really reduce my ability to save...
| grenoire wrote:
| Yeah, as a youngling in Europe I feel like I'm about to get the
| shitty end of the stick by the time I hit my 30s. 600k/year
| (inflation-adjusted) seems like a pipe dream...
| astura wrote:
| I'm a software developer in the US and this is all a pipe
| dream to me too - I started in the (software) workforce a few
| years before this person but at close to half the salary.
| After my first year of employment my net worth was nowhere
| near positive, especially not five figures positive - I had a
| student loan burden that was more than my yearly salary. I
| didn't get into the positive net worth territory until around
| year ~5 in the workforce.
|
| 2009 was also a recession year where it was difficult to find
| an entry level job at all, at any salary. I went without
| (software) work for half a year when I was laid off at the
| end of 2008 and ended up having to relocate for employment.
|
| I'm in my late 30s now and I'm well off by almost every
| measure (I max out all retirement accounts, I have a six
| figure brokerage account) - but I'm nowhere near a
| millionaire or financially independent. I'll need to work
| another decade best case scenario.
|
| The biggest boost to my savings rate/financial position came
| from getting married and sharing income/bills with my
| husband.
|
| If I did it over again I'd pay off my loans slower and put
| more in my retirement accounts earlier.
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| It's a pipe dream. 100kEUR a year is exceptional for an
| engineer in Europe. Outside of finance and some American
| company, it is an exceptional salary period, very rare for
| someone under 30. I know senior managers in some consulting
| company who don't gain that in my country.
| sakex wrote:
| Not exceptional in Switzerland, Norway and UK
| keewee7 wrote:
| The UK has low software developer salaries. Especially
| when you take into consideration that it is a highly
| developed English-speaking country.
| mgaunard wrote:
| 100k USD is 75k GBP.
|
| Many junior developer roles in London will pay 50k. Some
| finance ones will pay 75k or more.
|
| 600k USD / 450k GBP is also definitely reachable for a
| senior developer at team leader level or comparable.
| Xenoamorphous wrote:
| 450k as a team lead? I've never heard of that. In
| itjobswatch.co.uk highest median salary for London is
| around 200k.
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| Median is not the same as reachable.
| mgaunard wrote:
| The good jobs aren't going to be advertised on whatever
| website this is, they use headhunters.
|
| Also at this level you enter into a negotiation with the
| business stakeholders, compensation package is tailored
| to each profile and opportunity.
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| I like how people always feel the need to shift a
| discussion on actual salary that normal people experience
| to a few job mostly in finance negotiated directly with
| key stack holders to pretend things are comparable.
|
| Let's forget that salaries in Europe are ridiculously low
| to focus on the handful of people who might get an
| extraordinary position - still paid less than an
| equivalent one in North America nevertheless - and
| pretends its doable and everything is fine.
| mgaunard wrote:
| While London is a finance hot spot, jobs from Google,
| Facebook or similarly competing company will also be in
| that range.
|
| And that's not even the top salaries, there are also jobs
| that pay in millions.
|
| You'll also find similar salaries in Amsterdam, Paris,
| Zurich...
|
| I'm just stating that jobs that pay the same as in the
| article do exist in Europe, and I don't believe they're
| as exceptional as you suggest.
|
| There just is a large spectrum of salaries for software
| engineering, and as we all know, 90% of everything is
| crud, so of course the median will be much lower.
| oblio wrote:
| And this applies to 0.0001% of people, at best, so in
| practice it's not actually attainable.
| dlisboa wrote:
| Engineering salaries in the US are so high I think these
| "retire by 35" posts should be put into perspective. Saving
| 250k USD in a lifetime would set me up for life where I'm
| from. Never mind over 500k in a single year.
| slyall wrote:
| Where I live (New Zealand) $US 100k/year is a top salary.
| mabub24 wrote:
| Tbh it's a pipe dream for essentially everyone else as well,
| even 95-99% of Americans. For instance the American President
| makes 400k/year. That's a wild annual salary and only
| possible for an exceedingly small smidge of the population.
| And this guy is earning more.
| zomglings wrote:
| > Ultimately for me, that's what financial independence is all
| about, and why it is all worth it. It's not about sitting on a
| beach and drinking your life away. It's about having the freedom
| to pursue your life purpose, whatever it may be, and however
| impractical it may be.
|
| This is just my personal opinion, but this is an ass backwards
| way of doing things and it gets me frothing at the mouth.
|
| If it's your life purpose, DO it already. Live lean if you have
| to, become a cockroach if you must, but let that purpose ROAR out
| of you. Don't sit around accruing meaningless tokens, becoming an
| old fuck with all of the juice of life wrung out of you like some
| decrepit mop.
|
| Sincerely, a decrepit mop.
| andreilys wrote:
| The beauty of high tech is that you can achieve financially
| independent within your mid-to-late 30s depending on how well
| you do.
|
| Conversely, I've seen those that "pursue their passion" end up
| being bitter and cynical when they don't make it. They end up
| working one dead-end job after another, hoping to one day
| become a famous writer/actor/singer/etc.
|
| Eventually they realize they don't have what it takes and are
| now stuck working into their 50s/60s.
|
| Sure some small pct end up being successful but the majority
| end up being in the same corporate trap that they originally
| eschewed, albeit with more debt and a more precarious financial
| situation.
| ahelwer wrote:
| I think it's difficult to discover your "life purpose" while
| still working full time. Unless you're anomalously lucky to be
| exposed to various subfields at your job, it requires a fair
| amount of leisure and self-directed tinkering (months to
| years). Quitting your job and living like a cockroach to find
| yourself or whatever is a pretty big sell. I also suspect this
| process requires a baseline level of comfort and freedom from
| stress but can't say authoritatively.
| malka wrote:
| My path to financial independent: be lucky.
| jb3689 wrote:
| > If you're still a student or open to attending grad school, do
| everything you can to gain admission into a top-5 Master's
| program
|
| I think you are over-estimating the impact of a "top 5" master's
| program vs an average master's program. I had a very similar
| trajectory to you and went to an average master's program.
|
| The major difference between you and me is that I never wanted to
| work for a Google, Amazon, or Hedge Fund and wanted to work at
| smaller companies. Salary suffered because of my reluctance to
| even compete for those jobs.
|
| > The biggest boost in my career earnings came when I
| transitioned from a Computer Hardware engineer to a Software
| Engineer
|
| I also disagree with this. The biggest boost in your career
| earnings came from working at (1) financial companies and (2)
| working at FAANG. I don't think you have enough data to say that
| your area of focus is what to lead to this, and I personally
| think it is wrong. Maybe it opened doors for you however
| uyt wrote:
| Beware that many masters programs from top schools are degree
| mills and the undergrads who went there know this and actively
| loathe them (based on their experience sharing classes with
| them). At least for my particular school. I remember helping
| out with resume screening at a job fair and we would sort
| everyone who went to _that_ masters program to the bottom of
| the pile. A handful of them turned out to be good candidates on
| second pass, but it sucks that they probably would 've had a
| better chance just leaving off their masters.
| csa wrote:
| > Beware that many masters programs from top schools are
| degree mills and the undergrads who went there know this and
| actively loathe them (based on their experience sharing
| classes with them).
|
| Thank you for mentioning this. So many people don't realize
| that masters programs can be fairly worthless even from elite
| schools.
| thegypsyking wrote:
| The masters ranking does matter if you're international
| giantg2 wrote:
| How so?
| bdcravens wrote:
| For multiple reasons (scarce supply and large demand of
| visas, unfair stereotypes, etc) international hires need
| more objective criteria to stand out, even if it's just
| window dressing
| andreilys wrote:
| _Salary suffered because of my reluctance to even compete for
| those jobs._
|
| The article talks about how to gain Financial Independence as a
| software engineer. Choosing to not work at FANG or unicorn
| co's, will severely limit your ability to achieve FI. Whether
| you like it or not, people do make judgements off of where you
| went to school.
|
| I've had several managers at FANG talk about how they have a
| bias towards top 10 schools, one even admitted that the
| candidates don't seem that different but he still has this
| bias.
|
| _The biggest boost in your career earnings came from working
| at (1) financial companies and (2) working at FAANG. I don 't
| think you have enough data to say that your area of focus is
| what to lead to this, and I personally think it is wrong._
|
| You're welcome to look at the data on levels.fyi
|
| It's pretty clear that at this point SWE's on average far-out
| earn HWE's. Not to mention the fact that there are a lot more
| open headcount for SWE's than for HWE's at the top-paying
| companies.
| spacemadness wrote:
| This is what I found frustrating about embedded and computer
| architecture jobs. Your knowledge base is difficult to attain
| and many jobs require you to disrupt your life by jumping on
| a plane and fly to $country_of_manufacture to diagnose issues
| while fighting jet lag. For that you're rewarded less pay
| than your software engineering peers. It's not worth it
| unless you greatly prefer to work closer to the metal.
| giantg2 wrote:
| My masters did nothing for me. I still make under $100k. What a
| waste of time.
| deepnotderp wrote:
| Compound interest wasn't the key here. The key was salary
| increasing rapidly and the 600K+ salary at the end. He could've
| not invested at all and still gotten there.
| angeland89 wrote:
| cardosof wrote:
| This. Compound interest is the key when the household income
| remains stable for decades. With monthly investments and
| dividends reinvesting a medium class family can achieve
| something... 20 years from now.
|
| Not saying the author doesn't have merit, of course he has
| plenty. It's just a different kind.
| mgaunard wrote:
| I don't understand how he's spending so little.
|
| I spend 40k per year on housing alone, and my apartment isn't
| particularly luxurious.
| IkmoIkmo wrote:
| roommates
| mathverse wrote:
| This makes my blood boil as a European.Our lives are basically
| capped at lower middle class for FTE positions.
| Invictus0 wrote:
| Just move to the US
| DogLover_ wrote:
| How?
| vegetablepotpie wrote:
| Everything he says is right and I agree that when done correctly
| can lead to financial independence in ~10 years, but his models
| are very linear and this should be accounted for.
|
| For example, finding roommates is a good way to save money, but
| you have to be careful about who you room with. Roommates can
| both increase social opportunities for a busy software developer,
| but can also damage career opportunities. I had a roommate that
| got a homeless boyfriend. I was apprehensive about it but
| supportive at first. My employment depends on me having minimal
| interactions with police and when I found out he was bringing
| drugs into the apartment, I had to end the lease and got my own
| living space. I now live alone and I lost a friend. This is more
| expensive but less risky. It will slow my financial independence,
| but less so than job loss.
|
| Renting a cheap apartment sounds good on face value, but the
| problem with it is that the quality of people you're around is
| lower. When you get dragged down, you enter a world where there
| is no respect or affirmation for your time or goals, everything
| is an emergency demanding your immediate and full attention, this
| is cancer for your attention. If you want to develop your skills
| as an engineer or learn a new technology on your own time, guess
| what you're not going to do in that situation? One example, when
| my car was broken into at my cheap apartment, police assume that
| since you're a victim of crime, you've got nothing better to do
| and you have plenty of time. Guess what I didn't do that day? I
| didn't go to work. I would say living in a more expensive area
| ultimately saves you time and lets you grow because it takes away
| a lot of the barriers living around poverty introduces.
| seaman1921 wrote:
| TLDR; Get a job in faang and keep interviewing and you will be
| financially independent.
|
| I don't like this article at all, since it does not talk about
| the average software engineer. The author's current salary is
| 625k USD which would already make one financially independent
| regardless of any of the other decisions that they took in their
| life (eg. living with roommates to be frugal like they suggest)
| d_burfoot wrote:
| I see a lot of people complaining that the author of this article
| is unrealistic or delusional. I disagree. I think he recognizes
| that the advice does not apply to everyone.
|
| But it does apply to many people reading HN, and it's important -
| especially for young people - to realize that this kind of life
| path is possible. I expect and hope that in the future, a lot of
| cultural and intellectual progress will be made by people who
| spent a few years in FAANG and then retired with a comfortable
| nest egg, to pursue less-well-compensated goals.
| mathgladiator wrote:
| As a fellow FIRE person, my key response is ATTA-boy. Huzzah!
| Congratulations!
|
| What many critics will not fully get is how hard it is to not
| spend the wealth. I know too many people making mid six figures
| and they spend everything. The paradox is that this adds enough
| stress to their lives that they can't focus on the next level of
| income.
|
| Find the gratitude for the opportunity, but please take pride in
| the discipline of keeping it.
| htormey wrote:
| This is very similar to my story. I moved to America from Ireland
| in 2007 after graduating with a degree in cs. I did a year in
| grad school before working in tech in the Bay Area for more than
| a decade, including at two companies from FAANG. I also ran a
| consulting business and for the last 3 years worked at Coinbase.
|
| I don't consider myself in anyway special. I know many people
| from Europe who went down this path.
|
| The sad reality is that in Europe software engineers don't get
| paid very well relative to the value they create. It's a lot
| better today in my home country Ireland than it was a decade or
| so ago but salaries and opportunities are still nowhere near as
| good as in the USA.
|
| Unless you are very lucky, if you want to make a lot of money and
| work with the top people in your profession, you will have to
| move. This will likely involve risk and personal sacrifice. If I
| was to distill this guys journey into a high level formula it
| would be as follows:
|
| 1) Pick a fast growing industry you are interested in. 2) Move to
| the area which pays you the most and where the most opportunities
| are. 3) work with top people and adapt your career based on what
| you see them do. 4) live reasonably, save and invest.
|
| I see a lot of people from Europe in the comments saying this is
| unrealistic or that it would be hard to replicate this success
| doing the same thing today. I disagree.
|
| While the specifics of the plan might be different for todays 20
| year olds. I.e specialize in cryptocurrency or machine learning
| or fintech. The overall approach is still valid, it just involves
| a lot of sacrifices and risks you may not be willing to take.
| georgeburdell wrote:
| >I don't consider myself in anyway special
|
| As someone who has within the last few months failed three
| FAANG on-sites and a Coinbase phone screen, I'd say you're
| special.
| TideAd wrote:
| FAANG interviews are best approached as iterative steps. That
| is: expect that you'll fail the majority of them (this is
| true for most capable people) and keep doing them as
| regularly as you can until you get an offer.
|
| I bet most engineers at these companies did not get an offer
| on their first 3 tries. This is not a big deal at all because
| they'll let you interview over and over after cool-off
| periods.
| htormey wrote:
| I hate tech interviews. If it's any consolation, I remember
| when I interviewed at Apple, I failed 10 interviews for
| multiple teams over 2 years before I got my first job.
| thesimon wrote:
| >I did a year in grad school before working in tech in the Bay
| Area for more than a decade, including at two companies from
| FAANG.
|
| I guess moved there with a F-1 visa, then F1 OPT and then H1-B?
|
| The "best" flow at the moment from what I have seen seems to be
| working for FAANG in Europe and then moving with a L1 visa,
| though that depends of course on the company.
| htormey wrote:
| Yep. That was my plan, do the cheapest best course that would
| get me an F1 (student visa) then do an internship with OPT
| and switch to full time.
|
| Agreed, re FAANG or other companies that have a USA presence.
| ericmcer wrote:
| The main takeaway from this is that you want to work FAANG lol.
| He was on track to hit 2m in 20-25 years until he shifted to
| Google/Amazon. A vast part of his compensation was probably in
| stock and those stocks are way up, so he hit his savings goal
| within a few years. He would have spent 15 years at Intel/Sun to
| hit the same #s
| dogma1138 wrote:
| So rough calculation here..
|
| $100K first job which is around PS74K in the UK... you aren't
| likely to get anywhere near that as a grad masters or not here
| but after taxes and student loan payments (which are deducted
| from your income in the UK) and all other deductions you'll end
| up with PS42,908.26 per year, that's $56K.
|
| And this is where this breaks down for people in tech outside of
| the US at least.
|
| In the UK the path was at least until IR35 kicked in was to slave
| for about 10 years and become a contractor at which point you'll
| charge per day nearly as much as you used to get per week if not
| per month...
| PUSH_AX wrote:
| IR35 hasn't really affected that path, you can find contracts
| that are outside of the legislation and as long as your working
| practices are also outside you're fine, there are also
| insurances now for these things.
| dogma1138 wrote:
| A lot of companies don't hire contractors under their own LTD
| anymore they only take those that come through an umbrella
| company that pays them under PAYE.
| PUSH_AX wrote:
| The people taking these roles arguably aren't contractors
| anyway. The market in the uk for contracts outside the
| legislation is healthy.
| gnfargbl wrote:
| There is also nothing -- literally, nothing -- to prevent you
| from finding a remote work contract with a US company, and
| billing them at a rate appropriate for the US market. From
| your point of view, there is no VAT chargeable on B2B
| services supplied to a customer located outside the EU, and
| you can get paid easily using a Wise account. From the
| client's point of view, give them a W2-BEN-E and they can
| effectively consider you as 1066 status.
| nickkell wrote:
| I started out at PS21k and in 10 years haven't reached the
| author's starting salary! The real advice should be for
| everyone to relocate to the US
| tluyben2 wrote:
| You can do a lot of it without moving to the US or working as
| a small but niche consultancy outfit (I get 200+ euro/hour
| from and in the eu); wfh for a US company, as a company in a
| cheap EU country that has favorable tax for companies. Then
| optimize. For instance, a UK company can deduct a lot of
| things especially work from home, you just need to optimize
| for them. Works fine for programmers at least. I do not think
| people who 'work jobs' know how much they can optimize their
| position; which is comparable to the US in rights really in
| many EU countries.
| Sholmesy wrote:
| You should reconsider your worth and attempt to re-negotiate
| pay.
|
| I started out 6-7 years ago at PS30k and am now at PS100k +
| options (worthless). Have only ever worked at startups. You
| can 1.5x that easily at a big tech (some FAANG jobs exist in
| London).
| dogma1138 wrote:
| You then end up paying London rent... You won't be able to
| afford to rent a luxury London flat on 100K or even 150K
| but a 2 bed in any decent area is PS2-2.5K council tax and
| utilities would be another PS200 p/m easily.
|
| You are probably better off making PS80K in Manchester as a
| senior dev than PS100-110K in London. Newcastle has also a
| decent tech ecosystem tho it is very much focused around
| Sage.
| switch007 wrote:
| What companies pay PS80k in Manc?
|
| (Not denying it, genuinely curious which sector/companies
| etc)
| Sholmesy wrote:
| Maybe. We own our flat in Zone 1 (Soho, 48k down payment,
| 12k closing costs) after 5 years saving, mortgage is
| 2.29% ~ 1900 a month. Save about 2500 a month. The one
| thing I will say is that the "single tax" certainly
| exists in London, and I find my situation affordable
| because I have no kids, and my partner brings in an other
| PS35k or so. If we wanted a 3 bedroom or something,
| forget about it. That's when it becomes absurd to live in
| central and totally prohibitive.
|
| Also, my experience with London companies + recruiters in
| the last 3 months has been that permanant remote roles
| have been cropping up. I would say its about 50/50 of
| whether a job requires _any_ on prem time, and about 90
| /10 that the job requires 1-2 days a week on prem.
| dogma1138 wrote:
| What flat did you buy in Soho for 480K assuming that it
| was a 10% deposit, or a better question would be when...
| Sholmesy wrote:
| I've said way too much PII already, but it's on HMRC/Land
| Registry if you want to look it up. Bought in 2019. Non-
| council.
| dogma1138 wrote:
| For a 2019 purchase there is no way that's more than a
| studio maybe maybe a tiny 1 bed, if I want to buy where I
| rent now (W2) I'm looking at 1M+ for any two bed that
| isn't a 50sq/m lower ground closet, the non council is a
| given I don't think there are any council properties in
| Soho...
|
| The 2 bed flat I'm renting got recently evaluated at 1.7M
| it's very nice and very large (for London)but the lease
| remaining on it is 68 years and the Victorian building it
| sits in would need a lot of work very very soon so the
| buyers are looking at 350-400K bill within a few years of
| buying the flat (leasehold renewal and building repairs)
| on top of that which also is why the current landlord is
| looking to sell.
|
| As it stands now if you want to buy a property for PS600K
| you are looking at PS60K deposit, PS20K stamp duty and
| probably another PS20K for misc costs.
|
| PS600K is a below what an average new build in a Zone 3
| would cost you these days outside of the few units they
| reserve for HTB. If you can save PS3K a month you're
| looking at 3 years of saving. Since most people / couples
| would struggle to save even PS1K a month especially in
| their early careers they are probably looking at a decade
| of saving for a property or even more if the house prices
| keep on rising as fast as they are now.
| vr46 wrote:
| I stayed at my ex's flat in W2 around twenty years ago,
| the estate was selling 2-beds for 240K then - are you
| suggesting those flats are over PS1M?? I dare not look at
| prices.
|
| Edit: Reader, he looked at the prices
|
| Found almost identical flat at 499,999K, so coming in at
| less than Millbank flats were going for in 2016. Those
| flats are only PS25K more now. This seems perfectly
| doable for software engineers who have a good permanent
| job or are contracting.
| vr46 wrote:
| We lived in NW1, W1H and SW1 for fifteen years and it was
| totally doable with two earners even starting on a perm
| salary of 35K, and as the income increased we stayed, but
| within three years of kids arriving, it was clear that we
| needed to make a choice. Stay with a two-bedroom in Zone
| 1 - and pollution etc - or jet to Zone 4 and triple our
| space.
|
| Five years later I think it's _more_ feasible to stay in
| Zone 1 or 2 with kids as the air becomes cleaner and you
| should have saved up enough to find a bigger place. A
| friend travels from Zone 1 to 4 every on the train for
| the school run, so it 's perfectly doable given flexible
| working.
| Sholmesy wrote:
| Totally agree re; kids and air pollution etc, it's
| getting better every year.
|
| The $$$ is the problem. 3 bedroom in Zone 1 is 1.5-2m
| cutler wrote:
| It's the other way round. The London wage differential is
| much higher than the rent differential outside London.
| dogma1138 wrote:
| Not any more I'm on PS150K base and total cash comp of
| around PS200K with bonus, car allowance and some other
| perks.
|
| Whilst it's true that I probably won't find a pay like
| this outside of London it's also quite hard to get it
| within London if I lose my job it's more likely that I'll
| have to take a pay cut than not.
|
| In fact once you get to 6 figures in the UK outside of
| contracting it's not uncommon to essentially bounce up
| and down by as much as 30% between jobs.
|
| Looking at the more median salaries especially post COVID
| the pay gap has shrunk considerably.
|
| Finance/Fintech is still very much London centric and
| those places pay the most in uk tech outside some senior
| FAANG roles but not everyone is lucky enough to land
| those.
|
| It's even not about being good or asking for more it's
| really about just landing a job with an employer that is
| able and willing to pay that much and being able to
| justify that to them and it's not as easy as it seems to
| be in SV.
|
| In fact just before the pandemic I was looking to make a
| move and I went to a few recruiters and their honest
| advice was pretty much stay where I was (less than what I
| get now but 20% (5/15 split) pension and very very good
| benefits).
|
| I did managed to move in early 2020 to my current role
| but that was through my network.
|
| Overall considering it the loss of pension I probably
| came out even it was more of wanting to do something new
| in a different setting than the pay.
| Sholmesy wrote:
| That's really good comp for the UK. Well done!
|
| Do you mind me asking what industry you're in?
| dogma1138 wrote:
| Data science, before that was finance.
| CodeGlitch wrote:
| Came here to say exactly the same thing (although it was more
| like PS19k as it was the games industry).
| 300bps wrote:
| At my last company we hired new computer science graduates at
| more than $100k per year.
|
| A friend of mine has a son that just got a job offer right
| out of a medium tier computer science school with total
| compensations more than $200k per year.
| unbanned wrote:
| But think about it. The fact you don't live in America can
| not have a price placed on it.
| CodeGlitch wrote:
| There are some really nice places in the states - although
| SF or NY are not one of them...
|
| Saying that, I'd rather live in NY than London.
| asdadsdad wrote:
| I'd take London anytime over NYC
| merrvk wrote:
| Tax in the UK is absurd (for what most actually get out of it)
| mmarq wrote:
| In the UK, the stronger drag on wealth accumulation for the
| poor is the absurd taxation on the middle incomes (50K+),
| especially given the very low level of service of public
| schools, healthcare system, childcare, etc...
| refurb wrote:
| Not making a judgement call on which is better (its all
| trade offs), but this is what Americans don't get - all
| those social benefits have a cost and a good portion falls
| on the middle to upper middle class.
|
| I think a lot of Americans envision finding a European
| style social safety net by only taxing billionaires.
| dogma1138 wrote:
| I don't think the UK has a European style safety net,
| they don't tax enough people for that the first PS12.5K
| of your income (below PS100K) are income tax exempt the
| UK has the narrowest tax base in Europe.
| mmarq wrote:
| I think the UK managed to strike the worst possible
| compromise between the Europeans and the Americans. The
| NHS provides some basic service, but if you want a French
| or Italian style healthcare, you'll end up spending
| thousands of pounds per year, assuming you are relatively
| healthy. Childcare is nonexistent, nurseries cost in the
| order of 1500PS per month per child. State schools are so
| bad that it's normal to send your child to a private
| school. Unemployment benefits are offensive.
|
| All this while everybody with a professional job faces a
| 40% marginal tax rate (plus NI).
| berdario wrote:
| Agree that the stronger drag is the cost of childcare, but
| the poor don't earn 50k+
|
| In fact, if you earn 50k as a single without dependants (or
| if you are a couple with 2x50k income) you're definitely
| richer than the majority of folks.
|
| Also, the UK tax system is incredibly generous to high
| income folks: 40k+ tax exempt pension contributions, 20k
| ISA allowance, 12k cgt allowance. It means that you can
| accumulate a good chunk of capital before you'll even have
| to start paying taxes
| dogma1138 wrote:
| You start to lose your income tax allowance at PS100K
| that more than offsets the CGT tax allowance and puts you
| in a hidden 60% tax rate.
|
| Childcare is expensive as fuck and you lose your
| childcare allowance at PS50K in fact if you share a
| household with anyone who claims it and you earn more
| than PS50K they'll deduct that from you...
|
| Living on wealth in the UK is as easy as in the US I
| would agree to that perhaps even easier since there are
| no property taxes and probably even more tax schemes to
| leverage than in the US but getting to that point under
| PAYE even whilst earning well above the median wage isn't
| easy especially if you want to have children and have to
| live in London for that pay.
|
| The main issue is just how depressed many of the wages in
| the UK are and thus just how narrow the tax base is.
| mmarq wrote:
| My point is that if you start your career owning nothing
| and work hard, you pay an insane amount of tax on it.
| Even if you make 100000PS per annum, it will take 20
| years to accumulate as much wealth as a guy who inherited
| a 60 square meter flat. In the meanwhile this other guy
| hasn't paid a pound of tax and is maybe receiving some
| benefit.
|
| I should have specified that the problem is the taxation
| of work-related income (the main source of income of the
| poor) compared to the taxation of wealth. On this respect
| I find particularly egregious the NI hike (an increase of
| the income tax or the introduction of a property tax
| would have been more appropriate).
| [deleted]
| dkdbejwi383 wrote:
| USA salaries are really unbelievable. That PS74,000 which seems
| to be a poor salary in the USA judging the the OP would be a
| really very good salary in the UK
| nitrogen wrote:
| Are UK salaries quoted post-tax? USA salaries and wages are
| usually quoted pre-tax. Obviously not a 5-10x difference, but
| that still makes comparison more difficult with regions that
| usually discuss post-tax earnings.
| JonChesterfield wrote:
| Quoted before income tax and employee national insurance
| (50%ish) and after employer national insurance (13%). Most
| people seem to forget about that extra 13 since it
| disappears before the 'gross' number on the payslip.
| [deleted]
| joebiden2024 wrote:
| I'm in a similar but worse boat - my net worth is only now
| reaching $375k after 3 years in the market. Most of my friends
| and coworkers are pushing 750k to 5-7 million.
|
| The biggest takeaway is, of course, in-flow over spending.
| dang wrote:
| Can you please not use a trollish username? We ban such
| accounts because it has the effect of subtly trolling every
| thread the account posts to. Maybe you didn't intend it that
| way, but these effects end up happening regardless of intent,
| and we've learned it's better to deal with this early than to
| let the problem compound over time.
|
| If you'd like to pick a different username we'll be happy to
| rename it for you.
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
| gmanis wrote:
| Very well done. The best part is that a modest 4% return on net
| worth/investments will yield about 100k a year which is a very
| good amount for most people.
| Retric wrote:
| Living off 4% works in retirement because you can in part live
| off principle. In early retirement it's not going to work out
| nearly as well because you get the reverse of dollar cost
| averaging, removing money in down markets is more expensive
| than in good ones. You need either dramatically reduce spending
| when your portfolio is down or to live well below the expected
| returns.
| gmanis wrote:
| Agreed completely. I meant in the sense of having this 100k
| once you retire and to continue to work on this high paying
| job for a few more years assuming you do a proper asset
| allocation.
| smileysteve wrote:
| But in the Us, you are currently free of 7.5% payroll tax and
| your income tax caps to 15%. Plus, you no longer need to save
| 15% of your income for retirement.
|
| The most expensive early retirement tax in the us is health
| insurance.
| ahelwer wrote:
| The straightforward 4% analysis is a simplification. It's
| pretty easy (and pleasant, even) to do independent
| contracting for a couple months of the year and cover almost
| all your living expenses - so no or very little withdrawal.
| Since you have lots of leisure time to explore your
| interests, you can also get lucrative niche-of-niche
| contracts in your specialty.
| Retric wrote:
| You can also live comfortably in most of the US on 30k per
| year assuming you have no dependents or disabilities. It's
| simply a comment about spending not the ability to retire.
| sillysaurusx wrote:
| I'm not sure I understand. Is it really true that you can't
| extract 4% cash money per year off of a million dollars, even
| in a down market, without shrinking the principal?
|
| $100k should be enough to live comfortably off of in the
| Midwest.
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| I'm confused by your question. If you take 4% of the
| principal and the market does not return at least 4%, your
| principle has shrunk. This does not account for inflation
| either.
|
| The Trinity study that the 4% rule comes from is based on
| having _some_ assets left after 30 years, not the original
| principle being intact.
|
| Trinity study: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_study
| hiq wrote:
| If the author lurks around: the investment part would be more
| convincing if you added the gains you got from it to the table,
| at least between the first and last year.
| stakkur wrote:
| One common thread these kinds of stories seem to always share: a
| single, childless person earned an extremely high (and rare)
| level of income, hoarded it for several years, then 'retired'.
|
| The author earned the majority of their net worth in only a few
| years (five or six) via a high salary and stock options. There's
| nothing wrong with that, but for most anyone--American or not--
| it's an unrealistic, semi-mythical story that says more about a
| lopsided economic system than life.
|
| And so, the main lesson of such stories (for me) is always
| "extraordinarily high incomes without significant life
| encumbrances make it easy to quickly hoard money and compound
| it".
| xupybd wrote:
| Well done. That's a huge income and good on you for holding onto
| it.
|
| I'm attempting a much slower version of this. But hope to retire
| well off by following the Dave Ramsey method.
| abagheri43 wrote:
| binkHN wrote:
| TL;DR: Get a high paying job, live frugally, invest everything
| else and don't have children.
| tdrdt wrote:
| The author was lucky to earn a huge amount of money.
|
| 99% of the people can't do anything with this advice because they
| don't have any savings to begin with.
|
| I wonder if the author even understands how lucky he is.
| lordnacho wrote:
| I think the real luck is getting on the ladder in the first
| place, where you have a prestigious job that is a natural step
| to even more prestigious jobs, ie you are always a likely
| candidate for the job above. Most hedge funds and FAANG
| employers get a lot of resumes that will never even be read.
|
| Also you really don't know what you're actually applying for
| when you're a graduate. You think you know but only those who
| are fortunate are able to get it right. Plenty of people get a
| job thinking it leads somewhere. For instance, I've interviewed
| a lot of financial ops people who think they're on the ladder
| to becoming a trader. It does happen, but not that often.
|
| But good on him, it still takes work and dedication to do
| something like this.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| > For instance, I've interviewed a lot of financial ops
| people who think they're on the ladder to becoming a trader
|
| I think it is definitely possible to know. My college friends
| with parents in tech certainly knew.
|
| When I was in college, I looked over H1B data to get a sense
| of what was really going on. The conclusion: finance,
| consulting, law, all vastly overrated in compensation unless
| you are doing quantitative finance or have a very rare job.
|
| Medicine and tech, appropriately rated for comp.
| georgeburdell wrote:
| True in my experience. The path is set long before you think
| it is. Yes, you can jump on the prestige track later on (in
| my field, this means joining Apple after 5-10 years of
| working), but a Stanford grad naturally walks into these
| jobs. My spouse and I have the same degree and background,
| aside from alma mater, but they joined a FAANG, in a design
| role, out of school because that's where everyone in their
| Stanford circle was going. I joined a tier 2 company in QA
| because that's where my school was feeding people. 6 years
| later, my spouse is a multi-millionare* and I'm around 1 with
| 4 more years of experience.
|
| I've been trying for years to jump to a FAANG and correct my
| initial career mistake, but it's extremely difficult and I've
| only seen the top 10% of my company, in the right positions
| (not QA), do it. I need to do two jumps: QA to design, then
| tier 2 to tier 1. As a result, I've actually decided to throw
| in the towel and "reroll" as a software dev.
|
| * For the purposes of retirement we track our net worths
| separately
|
| [Edit] I also would like to mention that the article says as
| much
| PascLeRasc wrote:
| Changing career tracks like that is so hard. You almost
| need to hide your experience in interviews. I've had so
| many interviews get derailed because the interviewer finds
| out that I'm looking to switch away from a field I don't
| enjoy and realizes that they have another opening there
| they'd rather fill.
| throwaway6734 wrote:
| Absolutely. What's incredibly frustrating is that as I've
| moved up the employer prestige ladder, the level of talent
| definitely goes up, but so much of it is just a rise in
| credentials (e.g., better schools, better past jobs).
| Levels of motivation/effort don't seem too different: there
| are still the same groups of lazy people that put in the
| bare minimum and others that do a great job.
|
| Each hop up takes a good mix of hard work and luck but it
| always results in a massive jump in pay
| j3th9n wrote:
| People can still follow some of his advice, maybe end up with
| less money, but there's still some good advice.
| sneak wrote:
| > _The author was lucky to earn a huge amount of money._
|
| He's not earning "huge" amounts of money for jobs in that
| field. (Additionally, it's a field that most intelligent people
| can enter with 1-3 years of study.)
|
| https://twitter.com/danluu/status/1447997574556880902
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| What proportion of SWEs make the kind of money that Dan Luu
| and the author are talking about?
| ac29 wrote:
| The author is solidly in the top 1% of income for the US. The
| implication that 99% of working Americans are stupid or lazy
| is frankly insulting.
| avindroth wrote:
| This is why people don't want to talk about money
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| There is little point in discussing money and using yourself
| as an example when you are extremely well off.
|
| Congrats to OP for having a lot of money in the bank, but
| there is nothing special or unique about their advice. It's
| the usual invest your money, don't spend too much, try to get
| into a top company, etc.
|
| Even for someone in a similar situation, there is very little
| here that I haven't seen repeated elsewhere countless times.
| avindroth wrote:
| I highly doubt this is _just_ about quality of his advice.
| Look at all these comments, and the salt.
|
| Remove a zero from his salaries, and the response would
| have been very different.
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| The comments on this post in general, I completely agree.
| The top level comment in this thread doesn't seem salty
| though.
| calvano915 wrote:
| Remove a zero and the story becomes fiction. That's the
| point of pointing out the luck and privilege of their
| position.
| thiht wrote:
| > even an average engineer with a five-figure salary can become a
| millionaire by her late 30s
|
| With my five figure salary in France the max I can invest is
| 1k/month, so with a 10% RoI I can expect around 200k by the time
| I'm 30. That's nowhere near a million and doesn't take the flat
| tax in consideration. Maybe 10% is considered low or not risky
| enough?
|
| > first salary in the low six-figure
|
| Yeah, that's not gonna happen in Europe.
| thegypsyking wrote:
| Exactly why I left Europe to work in the US, best decision ever
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| I think the main take-away is that financial independence like
| this is possible in USA. Not so much in Europe or pretty much
| anywhere else.
| 2-718-281-828 wrote:
| this is cringeworthy humble bragging ...
| keewee7 wrote:
| What can we European devs do to boost tech salaries in Europe?
|
| I love my five weeks of paid holiday, 14 weeks of paid paternity
| leave, and free healthcare. but I would still prefer early
| retirement instead of working till 65.
| ulucs wrote:
| Remember that you don't really need to save money for late-life
| healthcare and your childrens' education, and just get out when
| you have saved enough
| pyrale wrote:
| > What can we European devs do to boost tech salaries in
| Europe?
|
| Basically, build a network of tech monopolies which engage in
| unethical, if not criminal practices, then build a VC ecosystem
| that is ready to spend king's ransoms to get startups to join
| that club. Wait as these companies compete to buy your soul.
| KptMarchewa wrote:
| Non-serious answer:
|
| Kill particular countries languages, cultures and laws to
| create real single market. At least US Congress has sole
| authority to regulate interstate commerce, compared to EU.
| uuu23ioj23iJI2i wrote:
| dagurp wrote:
| Create more European tech companies
| distances wrote:
| Independent contractor or entering management. Employment
| salaries go high currently only in Switzerland, though they
| have definitely been rising in recent years also in Central
| Europe.
| cpursley wrote:
| What's stopping you from working for an American company now?
| I've meet many Europeans doing so and making multiple of the
| local salaries.
| spoonjim wrote:
| The path to financial independence was getting to a $625k salary,
| nothing about saving.
| allenu wrote:
| Not only that, but riding the appreciation of AMZN and GOOG
| stock (or just tech in general) in the last couple of years. It
| appears from the graph that this person had a lot of
| investments in tech and that the recent bull run helped them
| tremendously. As someone, who has similar investments, I've
| seen it firsthand, but I don't think it's a trend that will
| last forever.
| [deleted]
| cerved wrote:
| _Cries in European_
| scandox wrote:
| What's the term for these articles?
|
| FIREPorn?
|
| SecurityPorn?
|
| All these dreams of safety make me feel sorry for people. To need
| so much money just not to be afraid.
| yulaow wrote:
| The author of this blog post should change it adding "... in
| silicon valley and in a booming stock market"
|
| Most of what he said doesn't apply outside of that specific
| bubble
| jpatters wrote:
| And with no kids.
| cheonic8492 wrote:
| > And with no kids.
|
| Solution: don't have kids.
|
| The financial, emotional, and time costs of kids are well-
| known beforehand.
| xwdv wrote:
| How much should one expect kids to cost? Is an extra $1k in
| expenses a reasonable estimate?
| vjeux wrote:
| Child care in the bay area is $2-3k / month per child. Plus
| you need a bigger home with one more bedroom so an
| additional $1-2k/month. Then a bigger car. This is without
| all the expenses related to having a child such as
| healthcare, food, activities...
|
| It goes up quickly!
| xwdv wrote:
| So it sounds like $8k per month for a child is pretty
| reasonable, but then you hit economies of scale so the
| next kid will be a bit cheaper than the first to have.
| nickflood wrote:
| If you have kids and live in Europe already with a spouse
| who also has their hopes and dreams and works in a
| different field, kids cost you 500k out of the total 600k
| compensation because you can't (really - don't want to)
| move to bay area :)
| yobert wrote:
| It's not that kids cost a lot (though they might). I think
| it's because kids take a lot of time and energy.
| jacknews wrote:
| How to be a millionaire:
|
| Earn over $1/2 million a year.
|
| Work for 2+ years.
|
| The only lesson seems to be don't spend your money.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| It is probably easier to be a millionaire if you do not feel
| the need to socialize with other millionaires, live where they
| live, do what they do, send your kids to the same exclusive
| schools etc.
|
| Of course, without networking with other millionaires, becoming
| a millionaire is a bit harder...
|
| On yet another hand, a millionaire living in the well-to-do
| coastal communities of California might actually still be
| financially insecure, while a not-yet-quite millionaire living
| in rural Montana may be secure for life.
|
| I am instinctively drawn towards the rural Montana thing, but
| mainly because I am introverted anyway.
| xwdv wrote:
| It's more like 3 or 4 years due to taxes, even if you don't
| spend your money. Feels like government is hellbent on making
| sure you don't become a millionaire.
| albertopv wrote:
| Italian, mainly java dev with 10 years of experience, I earn
| slightly 40k EUR year. 100k is very high in Italy.
| awelxtr wrote:
| Spanish here, same picture :/
| Zababa wrote:
| In France making 100k a year (pre taxes) put you in the top 3% of
| income. In the US it's around 10%. It's a smaller gap than I
| expected, but on the other hand I don't know anyone that makes
| 100k after college. It seems like the answer for people not in
| the US is to go to the US, work 10 years and then come back in
| your country of origin.
|
| Thanks for making this article and sharing all of that, it's
| precious information.
| bjornsing wrote:
| > Disclaimer: I acknowledge that I've been very privileged,
| especially in the educational opportunities I've had.
|
| This might sound reasonable from a US-centric perspective, but to
| me it reads like utter nonsense. The main privilege here is
| access to the US labor market and tax policy. There are no
| stories like this one where I live (in Sweden). Absolutely none.
| Aeolun wrote:
| People from Sweden should have a fairly easy time emigrating to
| the US right?
| bjornsing wrote:
| I don't think so. The easiest/surest path I know of is a H1B
| work visa.
| foldr wrote:
| It's a bit of a myth that it's easy for people from European
| countries to emigrate to the US. Generally speaking there are
| no special visas available. You would either have to look
| into getting an H1B or one of the O1 visas. The O1 route is
| difficult, and the H1B route, while attainable, is a big
| PITA, and leaves you in a rather insecure position
| (especially if you have a spouse).
| fundad wrote:
| I think it's a reference to US leaders with European
| heritage use Swedish immigrants as exemplary prospects
| versus people from non-white nations.
| foldr wrote:
| The US doesn't have explicitly racist immigration laws.
| Being white might give you some kind of an advantage
| (even though it obviously shouldn't), but you'll still
| have to go through the same process as anyone else.
| anxrn wrote:
| Not directly racist, but there's a _huge_ difference in
| effective waiting times for employment based green cards
| by country, mainly due to the per-country cap.
|
| Roughly speaking, for similarly qualified folks applying
| in the EB2 category in 2021, Indian immigrants (worst
| case), approval can take 15+ years, while immigrants from
| Sweden will take 2-3 years at most (was less than a year
| pre-COVID).
| foldr wrote:
| That's true. However, even getting to the point where you
| can apply for a green card is not a straightforward
| process. And if you are on an H1B it is still the case
| that your spouse cannot work in the US until you are (at
| least) in the process of getting your green card. So I
| would say that few people in Sweden would have a "fairly
| easy" time of immigrating to the US (though it is
| certainly possible).
| fundad wrote:
| Not explicitly; I agree. I meant that while it is a myth,
| it is a myth perpetuated by elected officials in the US
| and what they say when they hold power and especially the
| campaign promises they make to win power.
| anxrn wrote:
| While I completely agree the H1B is a PITA, it has been and
| continues to be the primary vehicle for the huge % of tech-
| employed immigrants to attain the sort of independence
| referred to in the OP.
| ur-whale wrote:
| > There are no stories like this one where I live (in Sweden)
|
| Not moving to where the opportunities are is entirely your
| choice.
|
| No privilege involved.
| mattst88 wrote:
| I think you should consider this view in the context of
| various country's immigration policies. Privilege definitely
| comes into play.
| miskid wrote:
| The opportunity described is only common in a handful of
| companies in handful of cities. Outside of this it is going to
| be rare even in the US. Since Sweden doesn't have a large
| presence of these companies you are going to have to move to
| for example Zurich or London for it to be common. It isn't a
| Sweden versus US thing, it's a "achieving a high level in a
| major company that gives you stock" versus not. The opportunity
| still exists in Stockholm but requires more achievement, effort
| and luck because it is less common in absolute terms.
|
| That said it sucks to work in Sweden because it's all about
| making money through inheritance, housing, stocks or contacts.
| But I guess that is how it is in many places these days.
| fragmede wrote:
| GP poster is also incorrect. Prior to his passing, famous DJ
| Avicii is estimated to have an estate of 50 million USD;
| well-off enough to never work again if he didn't want to.
| There's also, y'know, the Royal Family. GPs post would lead
| you to believe that Swedish society is flat, but there are
| absolutely bank managers (or something, I never got a chance
| to ask) running around driving Porsches while the rich plebs
| own thirty year-old cars, or don't own cars and take public
| transit. There are people who can skip the line to getting
| housing in Stockholm by buying a flat instead of waiting in
| line for years for a rental property. 20-year olds in the
| technology field are still much better off, economically,
| than someone who's chosen to be circus performer or artist.
|
| However, a world-class DJ and the fact that some people are
| richer than others doesn't _really_ contradict the claim that
| Sweden is much more egalitarian, and my previous points need
| to be examined within the broader culture of Sweden and
| Scandinavia in general. (Many Swedes commute daily into
| Denmark.) Having a car is convenient, but thanks to a world-
| class public transportation network in Stockholm, rather
| unnecessary. Car ownership is thus less of a deal compared to
| much of the US. While the privileged in Silicon Valley are
| trying to get "fuck you" money (more eloquently expressed as
| Financial Indpendence / Retiring Early - FIRE), the older
| Swedes I met still work, and are most proud of the days or
| week off their job affords and middle-class people are able
| to travel more than I see Americans (though a lot of that is
| cultural, but time off work and plane tickets+hotel is
| expensive).
| Gwypaas wrote:
| With the effective marginal tax rate at 67% for regular income
| in Sweden, excluding VAT and other point taxes, the only real
| possible method is to start a company.
| wk_end wrote:
| So just doing some cursory research - and I admit, I'm not
| Swedish - 67% seems to be on the high side as far as EMTR
| estimates go. So I think you'd need to make a pretty hefty
| amount of money in Sweden to pay that much. Wikipedia, for
| instance, claims that the EMTR for an income of over 675 000
| SEK is only 60%; Glassdoor tells me the average software
| engineer in Stockholm makes ~500 000 SEK (though Glassdoor
| estimates can be questionable).
|
| I bring this up because I don't think taxation has much to do
| with this. In NYC I was paying around 50% of my income
| towards taxes (federal, state, and local); when you factor in
| what I was paying towards things that the Swedish social
| system provides, I'm sure it amounted to very close to 60%
| (maybe even more!). But NYC is full of plenty of engineers or
| similarly well-paid professionals who've achieved financial
| independence. And, well, at least per Glassdoor (caveat
| emptor), the average software engineer gets paid literally
| twice as much in NYC than in Stockholm. IMO that probably has
| more to do with it.
| Gwypaas wrote:
| Starting at 540 000 SEK it jumps 20% to 64% in total. Then
| at 645 000 SEK the last percents.
|
| What is important to the remember which most Swedes tend to
| forget is the payroll tax at 31.42% on the employer side.
|
| To see how it evolves across incomes see this page (in
| Swedish)
|
| https://www.ekonomifakta.se/fakta/skatter/skatt-pa-
| arbete/ma...
| mlcrypto wrote:
| throwaway6734 wrote:
| They somewhat address this:
|
| >In a similar vein as above, I hear that it is almost
| impossible for talented software developers to earn similar
| amounts in any country besides USA. If early financial
| independence is a priority for you, strongly consider moving
| here. The easiest way to do this is probably to take a 1-year
| hiatus from work, and enroll in a Master's degree in USA.
| Though I have also met others who moved here on a work-visa
| charlesdm wrote:
| Most self employed in Europe have access to similar tax
| policies. You could think about and approach things differently
| to attain a similar result.
|
| I live in Belgium with similar high income tax rates to Sweden,
| but I know quite a few people that I grew up with who have done
| very well. Better than his story. All mid 30s and all came from
| nothing. Even as an employee. No excuses, man.
|
| These stories might not be listed in the newspapers, but that
| does not mean there are none.
| bjornsing wrote:
| You know people in Belgium who make $600k a year as employed
| software engineers? Yea, sure...
|
| In Sweden you can incorporate and work as a consultant. That
| lets you accumulate capital on the corporate side of the tax
| barrier so to speak. But the tax authorities can show up at
| any time, claim that your one man company is
| "overcapitalized" and force you to pay income taxes on your
| earnings.
| charlesdm wrote:
| You can't just work your way to wealth. You need to
| reinvest what you make into other assets and let them
| compound...
|
| That said, I know self employed developers making 150-200k
| (EUR) gross per year as contractors. But I also know
| employees that get allocated a few 100k/year in stock
| options as part of their compensation.
|
| Yes, you do need to be exceptional. And you need to be
| smart in the choices you make. I thought that was a given,
| since millions of dollars don't just come falling from the
| sky.
| bjornsing wrote:
| > That said, I know self employed developers making
| 150-200k (EUR) gross per year as contractors.
|
| There's nothing unusual about that. I was making that
| kind of money 15 years ago.
|
| But one problem is, that's about what I can make today as
| well. There is no upward mobility in pay. And it has
| nothing to do with ability. It's a cultural thing.
|
| (Also, the deal is typically that you sell your social
| career progression. So you'll be doing the same kind of
| job endlessly.)
|
| > You can't just work your way to wealth. You need to
| reinvest what you make into other assets and let them
| compound...
|
| This however is where the real problem starts: there is
| no way to accumulate and reinvest capital (legally),
| without paying massive (70-80%) taxes.
| xvilka wrote:
| Move to Russia with its low tax of 13% (could go as low
| as 7.5% if you establish a company and enjoy some
| additional benefits) and work remotely. Or any other
| country with low taxes and low cost of living.
| cpursley wrote:
| It can actually go lower then that if you set yourself up
| as a contractor. And outside of Moscow basic apartments
| can be rented for $250 a month.
| charlesdm wrote:
| Consumption yes. But how do you get to 70-80% for
| reinvesting? Corporate taxes are 20%, dividend taxes 30%
| on remaining 80? That gets you to 44% net tax. From gross
| to net. Income taxes are higher but still not 70-80%?
|
| I agree income taxes are high throughout most of Western
| Europe, but the way to grow wealth is by acquiring assets
| that can grow without having to sell them and pay taxes.
|
| An investment fund (or a property) can often grow for a
| long time and throw off cashflows that are taxed more
| efficiently. So can a business where you build up value
| in the equity. Cashflow keeps the lights on, but equity
| (even in a small business) builds wealth.
| bjornsing wrote:
| > Corporate taxes are 20%, dividend taxes 30% on
| remaining 80? That gets you to 44% net tax. From gross to
| net.
|
| No, there are special tax rules for small companies (the
| so-called 3:12 rules). You can pay yourself a small
| dividend ($15k or so), but above that you're taxed as if
| it was regular income.
|
| > Income taxes are higher but still not 70-80%?
|
| Payroll tax is 31% and then you pay around 55% marginal
| tax on what's left.
|
| It's debatable how you should count VAT in this context.
| Your consultant invoices will have 25% VAT on them that
| you have to pay the government. Your customers can get
| that back from the government, but will have to pay VAT
| on any value your services create. Since the name of the
| tax is value added tax I think it's fair to say you are
| adding the value with your labor and are in fact the one
| paying the tax, but others may disagree.
| MichaelRazum wrote:
| Oh boy that is true. Honestly, everyone who is born in the US
| is kind of privileged compared to 99% of the world. Especially
| if you are willing to work hard.
| ant6n wrote:
| The US is 4% of the world.
| sneak wrote:
| One of the biggest tragedies, in my view, is what a lovely
| place Europe is to live, and what utter lack (seemingly for no
| great underlying reason) of class mobility exists there.
| dsomers wrote:
| What an absolute joke. The United States has terrible class
| mobility compared to the Netherlands or Germany for example.
| You don't have anything to support what you said other than a
| skewed perspective created by American centric media.
|
| Edit: I guess the down voters here hate facts. The US scores
| lower on social mobility than the majority of European
| countries
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index
| yunohn wrote:
| Given my experience in NL, I would disagree. I see a very
| clear class divide here, which is just mostly ignored by
| the middle/upper classes and government.
|
| Most of the population spend the majority of their income
| on rent, commuting, and essentials. Students also have lots
| of debt over the past decade (15k on average). Owning a car
| is expensive, but so is public transport (esp. for a
| family). Renting is expensive, but so is buying a house.
|
| Income tax brackets range from ~40-50%, while corporate and
| dividend taxes are minimal - 15-20%. VAT is regressive and
| applies on almost all goods incl. groceries, ranging from
| 5-21%. There is no capital gains taxes, so this obviously
| benefits the economically active upper/elite classes who
| have assets/savings to invest - while middle class families
| do not own much at all.
|
| Since the Mobility Index rankings focus on lower -> middle
| class mobility, it shows the Netherlands in a positive
| light. However, the income divide between the two classes
| is actually not as pronounced as the USA, while the gap
| between middle to upper is incredibly massive (like most of
| the world).
|
| I guess what I'm trying to say is that despite the expected
| policy differences and rankings, NL is quite strongly
| divided economically. In my experience, the average Dutch
| don't mix with the poor, nor show off their riches, nor
| think too deeply about the elite classes. This mindset is
| essentially ignorance - neglecting poorness, brushing off
| government corruption, and assisting the funneling of taxes
| & wealth.
| garmaine wrote:
| > Students also have lots of debt over the past decade
| (15k on average)
|
| Those are amateur numbers. -USA
| yunohn wrote:
| I know loads of students with more debt, but indeed, it's
| less than the USA. Not an acceptable amount regardless.
| charlesdm wrote:
| You forgot to mention you do have a wealth tax. For
| wealthy people, those tend to be one of the "worst"
| taxes, because it is payable regardless of whether your
| investments do well or bad.
| yunohn wrote:
| You're right, I missed commenting on the Wealth tax.
|
| However, it's equally ineffective - there are multitudes
| of ways to avoid paying it, as the wealthy here
| continuously do. Further, the percentage itself is quite
| small:
|
| - 0.58% for 30k-100k
|
| - 1.34% till ~1MM
|
| - 1.68% afterwards.
|
| It is hilarious to me, that 30k is considered "wealth".
| This means saving for your children's studying expenses
| (rent, food, etc), would require exceeding 30k and paying
| taxes.
|
| The wealthy are wealthy. It doesn't seem to affect them
| at all. Instead, people like you and I have to think
| about the arbitrary amount of money the gov wants to
| extricate from our small savings.
| actually_a_dog wrote:
| > Most of the population spend the majority of their
| income on rent, commuting, and essentials. Students also
| have lots of debt over the past decade (15k on average).
| Owning a car is expensive, but so is public transport
| (esp. for a family). Renting is expensive, but so is
| buying a house.
|
| > Income tax brackets range from ~40-50%, while corporate
| and dividend taxes are minimal - 15-20%. VAT is
| regressive and applies on almost all goods incl.
| groceries, ranging from 5-21%. There is no capital gains
| taxes, so this obviously benefits the economically active
| upper/elite classes who have assets/savings to invest -
| while middle class families do not own much at all.
|
| I hate to tell you, but the US practically invented all
| those issues. Average Americans pay a far larger
| percentage of their income in taxes than the wealthiest
| Americans or corporations do. You say VAT, we say "sales
| tax," and, yes, it's still just as regressive. Rent,
| student loans, _etc._... yeah, that 's all bad here, too.
|
| https://smartasset.com/data-studies/income-needed-to-pay-
| ren...
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/09/us-
| student-l...
|
| https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/23/americas-
| richest-400-familie...
| yunohn wrote:
| > the US practically invented all these issues
|
| I don't believe that the Netherlands has inherited these
| ideas from the USA. In fact, NL invented capitalism and
| stock markets.
|
| Every Dutchie I speak to about the inequality here, loves
| comparing themselves to the USA memes. It's that
| whataboutism and the ignorance that bothers me.
| actually_a_dog wrote:
| > I don't believe that the Netherlands has inherited
| these ideas from the USA. In fact, NL invented capitalism
| and stock markets.
|
| Of course, I'm aware that NL invented stock markets and
| pioneered a lot of ideas behind modern capitalism. That
| wasn't where I was going with it.
|
| Not to turn this into some weird anti-pissing contest of
| "my country is worse than yours," but, if you look at the
| numbers, the US fares worse than NL on:
|
| Gini coefficient [0]: US 41.4 vs NL 28.1
|
| Global social mobility index [1]: US 70.4 vs NL 82.4
|
| Human development index [2]: US 0.92 vs NL 0.944
|
| Now, I don't think capitalism is the best system for
| maximizing any of the above, but, if you look at the
| tables, it's pretty clear that the Nordic model of
| capitalism is basically as good as capitalism gets. When
| you look at some of the things that go into these
| indices, other than stuff like "GDP per capita," it's
| pretty clear why: having a strong safety net and other
| social programs for workers makes people better off.
|
| If nothing else, reducing the consequences of failure
| from "total personal and financial ruin" to something
| more manageable is more likely to encourage people to
| take chances that may or may not pay off. _That 's_ what
| economic freedom _really_ is. That 's also the part of
| capitalism the US didn't pick up, so, that's what I was
| getting at when I was saying that the US invented those
| issues. Again, not to get into an anti-pissing contest,
| but, that's why the US recently got compared to Jurassic
| Park [3] on here. I don't see anybody comparing NL to a
| land where dinosaurs will eat you if you're not always
| vigilant.
|
| > Every Dutchie I speak to about the inequality here,
| loves comparing themselves to the USA memes. It's that
| whataboutism and the ignorance that bothers me.
|
| I'm not sure what you mean here, but I'd like to know.
| Are you just saying that people you talk to are saying
| what I said, but without the facts and figures?
|
| ---
|
| [0]: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-
| rankings/gini-coef...
|
| [1]: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-
| rankings/social-mo...
|
| [2]: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-
| rankings/hdi-by-co...
|
| [3]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29656668
| yunohn wrote:
| > Not to turn this into some weird anti-pissing contest
| of "my country is worse than yours,"
|
| Fair enough, though I wasn't trying to imply that either.
|
| > it's pretty clear that the Nordic model of capitalism
| is basically as good as capitalism gets
|
| I can agree from the data and personal experience, that
| the QoL for the lower/middle classes in the EU is better
| than most of the world.
|
| However, I don't think that it's as pronounced as the
| local EU politicians would have you believe, when they
| advocate for higher taxes every year.
|
| That's essentially the divide I'm talking about in my
| comments - the broken capitalist dystopia of it all. They
| set the benchmark somewhere in between the USA and the
| post-colonial world, and act like they've solved
| everything.
|
| > reducing the consequences of failure from "total
| personal and financial ruin" to something more manageable
| is more likely to encourage people to take chances that
| may or may not pay off. That's what economic freedom
| really is.
|
| Yes, I agree that this sounds intuitive. Unfortunately,
| the EU has one of the least risk-taking people I've ever
| seen. People don't startup nor attempt businesses.
|
| > Are you just saying that people you talk to are saying
| what I said, but without the facts and figures?
|
| Not exactly, but rather, they are unaware of the
| situation outside their social bubble in NL. And see
| memes about the USA and think they're doing great.
| Aeolun wrote:
| I loved living in NL (am Dutch), and would love to move
| back there, but financially it just doesn't make sense.
|
| Found it really hard to explain to my wife that:
|
| Salary will decrease, cost of living will go up, income
| taxes will go up, VAT will also go up, QOL will stay
| roughly the same.
|
| The only thing that I think is significantly better (and
| cheaper!) is the education.
|
| Edit: And the beer.
| fundad wrote:
| QOL staying the same is quite attractive.
|
| Out of curiosity, how many millions of dollars-equivalent
| does it cost to buy heath insurance in retirement?
|
| Isn't that more attractive than what you need in the
| states?
| yunohn wrote:
| > QOL staying the same is quite attractive.
|
| I can't speak for the OP, but usually QoL refers to
| essential things like housing, food, education, etc.
| Outside of that, the average Dutchie has very little
| disposable income.
|
| This means that the extra money they make in the USA, is
| still quite useful since you can spend it on all the
| other stuff that gives you joy in life.
| Aeolun wrote:
| I live in Japan, health insurance is quite good ;)
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| What do Medicare supplements cost, like $100-$500/month?
| If health insurance is your primary reason to leave the
| US, it might make sense to spend years working in a job
| that offers health insurance after you retire, or moving
| to a lower COL area within the US (medical costs in rural
| Texas are drastically cheaper than San Francisco, for
| example)
| RickJWagner wrote:
| My own experiences disagree.
|
| I have friends who started out in middle-class families and
| sunk lower. I also have friends who started out middle-
| class and rose.
|
| IMHO, the biggest factors seem to be raw intellingence,
| willingness to move & chase money, and some 'luck' factors.
| But I can't imagine a world where nobody could change
| fortunes given reasonably common circumstances.
| thesimon wrote:
| Using a different metric the Netherlands are slightly
| better than the US, but Germany is slightly worse.
|
| https://www.oecd.org/els/soc/1-5%20generations.png
| lpv wrote:
| That graph, and "social mobility" analysis in general,
| shows the movement from low income to average. This is
| good for a country overall, but it's irrelevant to the
| discussion that people are having in this thread. Most
| people here are more interested in the median to rich
| movement. Unfortunately this movement is practically
| impossible in countries like Sweden and NL (for an
| employee).
|
| Let's take a typical profile that HN users would be
| interested in, a top10% engineer working for a big
| company. This person would never become rich in NL, but
| almost always become rich in the US.
| thesimon wrote:
| >Most people here are more interested in the median to
| rich movement. Unfortunately this movement is practically
| impossible in countries like Sweden and NL (for an
| employee).
|
| Same in Germany why I assumed the diagram would be
| appropriate. But you are 100% correct and I agree with
|
| > This person would never become rich in NL, but almost
| always become rich in the US.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| I'm kinda surprised by these numbers. My impression of
| the us is that many immigrants will be unskilled and have
| low incomes, but that their children will be much better
| off in comparison. So a few reasons these numbers could
| be this way:
|
| 1. My intuition is wrong
|
| 2. There are lots of people in low income groups where
| there is little i regeneration along mobility for
| structural reasons, or maybe immigrants children who
| often see the biggest improvements are excluded for some
| reason.
|
| 3. The chart talks about reaching mean income.
| Particularly in the US, mean income is higher than median
| income so even if achieving the latter is easier,
| achieving the former could be harder. To some extent the
| metric may disadvantage countries where the highest-
| earning few percent of the population earn a lot more
| than the median person.
| dsomers wrote:
| And the majority of Europe is still ahead of the US, so
| what's your point?
| thegypsyking wrote:
| I moved from Europe to the US, and so have a lot of other
| people who aim to become rich. In europe most rich people
| inherit everything, mobility to upper class is basically
| non existent. Here it's Very much possible
| bjornsing wrote:
| I don't think that measurement of social mobility makes
| much sense in this context.
|
| Sure, moving from lower working class to upper middle class
| is probably easier in Sweden than in many other countries.
| But the thing is: it doesn't make much of a difference.
|
| I have a sneaking suspicion that the Nordic welfare state
| kind of games the social mobility score in this way, by
| having such a compressed income distribution. If you go
| from $20k after taxes to $35k after taxes you've moved
| through more or less the whole income distribution, but
| your life is pretty much the same.
| yunohn wrote:
| > If you go from $20k after taxes to $35k after taxes
| you've moved through more or less the whole income
| distribution, but your life is pretty much the same.
|
| 100% agreed - my sibling comment about NL also implies
| the same.
| oblio wrote:
| The thing is, there's only 1 situation where being a part
| of a certain socioeconomic group sucks. Being poor.
|
| So any country that optimizes for improving that, kind of
| by definition, improves the average happiness of its
| citizens.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| The report itself [0] notes many of the contradictions in
| the US:
|
| > "Despite scoring high on the Work Opportunities (83.0)
| pillar--because of its low unemployment rate--as well as
| on the Technology Access pillar (90.2), it has the lowest
| score in the region on the Fair Wages pillar (43.8
| against an average of 64.6 for the region). With an
| incidence of low pay (less than two-thirds of median
| wages) at 24.9, it has one of the shares of low-paid
| workers among OECD countries. The lack of effective
| social protection in the United States also translates
| into a low score on the Social Protection pillar (61.7).
| The minimum guaranteed income benefits for a family with
| two children (where one partner is out of work) is only
| 20% of median income. The United States could also
| improve on the Health pillar, where it performs quite
| poorly compared to peers in its region (75.8) due to a
| low healthy life expectancy at birth (66.6 years)."
|
| When you average things down to a single number, you lose
| a lot of nuance.
|
| For the US, the data the report collected generally
| supports something like 'You have the opportunity to
| succeed greatly, and be rewarded extremely well, but this
| requires financial resources at birth.' While also being
| true that 'If you are less successful, there are few and
| poor support nets for you, and serious pitfalls to avoid
| (f.ex. health care costs).'
|
| [0] https://www3.weforum.org/docs/Global_Social_Mobility_
| Report....
| joshuamorton wrote:
| > 'You have the opportunity to succeed greatly, and be
| rewarded extremely well, but this requires financial
| resources at birth
|
| This is the opposite of financial mobility.
| odiroot wrote:
| Seemingly it's easy to reach the middle class, or even
| upgrade into upper middle class (assuming you started with
| middle class parents). But then there's this big gap.
|
| And people in the middle are squeezed from the both sides.
| 1ris wrote:
| Like everything, it's very different across Europe. Best
| case, social mobility is pretty good. Worst case it's a
| little worse than the US.
|
| https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-social-mobility-among-
| poorest...
|
| >In Germany, it would take a child whose parents' earnings
| are in the bottom 10 percent of the population six
| generations or 180 years to reach the average national
| income.
|
| >The average across the entire OECD, a group of 37
| industrialized countries, is five generations. Children in
| low-income families in Denmark would need two generations,
| while children in the United States would need five
| generations.
| secondo wrote:
| > There are no stories like this one where I live (in Sweden).
| Absolutely none.
|
| Swedish tax rates on income makes this two to three times as
| difficult (approaches 60% plus 30% social paid by the employer
| this includes RSUs as well, plus 25% VAT) but it's nonsense to
| claim this doesn't happen. I am Swedish and have made
| significantly more in tech than the author. So has many of my
| friends.
|
| With that said, the only reason I'm still in Sweden is family.
| The public sentiment about the future is uncomfortably racist
| and increasingly hostile about fortune making. If you have the
| mobility my advice is to move. Good luck.
| bjornsing wrote:
| > I am Swedish and have made significantly more in tech than
| the author. So has many of my friends.
|
| I'm not saying there is no path to financial independence in
| Sweden, I'm just saying that the path the author has taken /
| is advocating is not one.
|
| I too know people who've made significantly more than the
| author. I've come close myself. But that generally involves
| starting a company and having other people work for you.
| ryan93 wrote:
| Whats racist about voters choosing the level of immigration
| they want?
| yunohn wrote:
| > it's nonsense to claim this doesn't happen. I am Swedish
| and have made significantly more in tech than the author. So
| has many of my friends
|
| You state further down that you made this money from RSUs.
|
| I'm not sure which bubble you/friends live in, but the
| absolute majority of tech workers do NOT get RSUs, even less
| often in the EU.
| thegypsyking wrote:
| How did you make mor? i worked in Sweden and my compensation
| was 4x less than it is in America. Unless you got extremely
| lucky or were much more senior it's impossible, case in which
| you would have made far far more in the us anyhow
| Winterflow3r wrote:
| > I am Swedish and have made significantly more in tech than
| the author. So has many of my friends.
|
| If you're comfortable with sharing, was it through a company
| exit or IPO?
| secondo wrote:
| Absolute majority through RSUs, which is why I'm objecting
| the GP's claims. The vested stock I've reinvested through
| an ISK in a somewhat broader portfolio over time.
| bjornsing wrote:
| If you've made over a million dollars in RSUs after taxes
| then I must admit... I've never heard of anything like
| that. Are you sure you're not talking about stock options
| in a quickly growing company/ startup?
| secondo wrote:
| No, I've had stock options too but they've turned out
| worthless.
|
| I don't know what your seniority is and what you've seen
| but I can assure you it exists, and it's not unique
| exceptions. Maybe a good opportunity to interview if
| you're feels it's unattainable where you are now. Plenty
| of US companies hiring remotely too...
| jakewins wrote:
| I just moved back to Sweden from the US, and at least for
| my part of industry there seems to have been a notable
| shift (covid?), where roles/salaries that previously
| required moving to SF are available remote in CET hours.
|
| You pay hella more tax on them though, but I mean the
| reason I left the US was also like.. related to all this.
| I want the things those taxes pay for, it feels
| incredible to be back somewhere with functioning
| healthcare, functioning child care systems.
| xwolfi wrote:
| Yeah I d say he s been dealt very bad cards, had no problem
| being independent growing up in Normandy, France. I think we're
| priviledged by not being in the US and that guy is at the top
| of a turd pile...
| djohnston wrote:
| You read that info and figure he's the unlucky one?
| CodeGlitch wrote:
| The modern "progressive" thought-process is to feel guilty
| about having a good education. I went to private school in the
| UK and the only thing I feel is infinite gratitude to my
| parents for forking-out the money to send me there (they were
| not rich, they were both teachers).
| joebiden2024 wrote:
| You can get a good education at public institutions lol. I've
| only gone to public schools.
| yobbo wrote:
| > good education
|
| "Good" education alone is not a meaningful predictor of
| anything, in Europe at least.
|
| So the guilt is about receiving the correct credentials to be
| granted further access to jobs and opportunities. It seems in
| UK/USA, "good education" is used as a euphemism for "received
| privilege".
| Aeolun wrote:
| Because everyone (or at least, like 40%) in Europe has what
| I consider to be a great education.
| DarylZero wrote:
| That's not even the same thing. "Education" is a code-
| word for credentials. Education is "good" insofar as the
| credentials are exclusive.
|
| It's the pretense of the credentialing organizations to
| have a monopoly on education.
| malnourish wrote:
| Where are people asked to feel guilty specifically about the
| fact they received a good education?
| cpursley wrote:
| For similar reasons they're supposed to feel guilty for
| being born into a particular race.
| borski wrote:
| You are equating guilt with acknowledging privilege, and
| those aren't the same. I feel privileged for having gone
| to MIT, and acknowledge that privilege. I feel privileged
| for having grown up Jewish and white-appearing, and
| acknowledge that.
|
| I feel guilty for neither, and acknowledging that
| particular privilege takes nothing away from how hard I
| worked anyway. The son of two very poor Russian Jewish
| immigrants, I worked extremely hard to get to where I am.
| I also feel privileged for growing up in a loving and
| non-abusive family.
|
| Lots of people don't have those things, and I'm thankful
| I did. That's not guilt.
| [deleted]
| notreallyserio wrote:
| > You are equating guilt with acknowledging privilege,
| and those aren't the same.
|
| This is one of those fundamental misunderstandings I see
| when discussing things with folks of a particular
| political persuasion. It's the same folks that belueve we
| shouldn't consider outcomes when evaluating processes.
| There's just something different about the way they
| think, I guess.
| anamax wrote:
| > You are equating guilt with acknowledging privilege,
| and those aren't the same.
|
| When someone says "check your privilege", they're saying
| that you've done something wrong and should feel guilty.
| borski wrote:
| No, they aren't. They are saying you should consider if
| and how your privilege helped you out, because sometimes
| that isn't transferable to other people; someone black in
| a job interview may not have the same experience someone
| white does, and that's okay, but it's important to
| recognize if and how being white helped so that someone
| who isn't white can account for that and adjust.
|
| It has nothing at all to do with guilt.
| vanusa wrote:
| _It has nothing at all to do with guilt._
|
| Guilt is too strong of term. But it is very much used as
| a kind of penalty box, or way of distancing the receiver
| from the speaker. And as far as enlightening those who
| supposedly need uplifting to the higher, more evolved
| plane that the speaker inhabits -- it just doesn't do
| much.
| DangitBobby wrote:
| It does have _something_ to do with guilt, because the
| ultimate concession of acknowledging privilege is that
| you didn 't truly earn your advantages, which is a root
| cause of perpetuated injustice. That's where the guilt
| lives: being the beneficiary of systematic injustice.
| This doesn't make you a bad person, of course; pretty
| much anyone in a position of privilege will capatalize on
| it, as that is human nature.
| anamax wrote:
| > They are saying you should consider if and how your
| privilege helped you out
|
| Yes, they are. "Check your privilege" is often used to
| say "you didn't do that."
|
| Even if you assume that "privilege" is a big reason why
| you had an opportunity, there are almost always many
| people with the same "privilege" who didn't do said
| thing.
|
| Moreover, it's almost always some skin color argument.
| There are many "don't look white" people who had
| privileges that I didn't have but I'm supposed to "check
| my privilege."
| vanusa wrote:
| _When someone says "check your privilege", they're saying
| that you've done something wrong and should feel guilty._
|
| This shouldn't be downvoted. It's become a socially
| acceptable insult, in some circles (which basically means
| the receiver is less empathic / socially aware than thou)
| -- or at the very least, a thought-terminating cliche.
|
| I know there's a bunch of nice and wholesome stuff it's
| _supposed to_ mean (like the sibling commenter points
| out); but the way it 's typically bandied about in modern
| discourse (as an STFU signal, more or less) -- it isn't
| what it really means.
|
| See also:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_cliche
| onos wrote:
| There is a lot of encouragement of guilt in the USA today. In
| general, shouldn't we embrace a value system that encourages
| good behavior? Eg honor those who do relatively well in life,
| given the circumstances they are born into?
|
| The immediate leap to discredit the success of others through
| assertion of privilege seems like it would discourage doing
| well.
|
| A better solution imho would be to celebrate success but to
| also encourage the successful to share their insights with
| others so as to spread the fortune - much as the author of
| this post has done.
| DarylZero wrote:
| "Doing well" isn't "good behavior" because it's mostly
| winning zero-sum games.
|
| Also LOL @ "insights"
| deagle50 wrote:
| Completely agree. This guilt culture is little more than an
| attempt to retain the benefits of the "privilege" vs
| sharing the spoils with the less fortunate.
| throw_nbvc1234 wrote:
| I agree with you in general but a useful question to ask
| is: How easy is this to do outside of tech (and other
| competitive industries like finance)? Competitive
| industries have high upside but inherently have limited
| opportunities at the top.
|
| You even see in this thread how people within tech but
| unable to pull FAANG salaries see this story as impossible.
| It's one viewpoint to think that it's possible for everyone
| to become skilled enough to work at a FAANG-like job
| (including passing the interview); probably correct so some
| degree. It's another (less rational) to think that every
| software engineer can work at FAANG-like jobs
| simultaneously; there just aren't enough positions.
|
| This gets even more dire outside of tech. What job are you
| going to switch to every 3 years that nets you a 30% salary
| increase? If that kind of opportunity was wide-spread,
| there would be a lot less income inequality (or at least
| more social mobility).
| 2-718-281-828 wrote:
| > but to also encourage the successful to share their
| insights with others
|
| laughing my ass off ... I expect the successful first and
| formost to share their success through actually paying
| taxes - then we can talk about their advice which won't be
| useful for the majority anyway b/c success in monetary
| terms is always defined by being focused on a minority.
| VirusNewbie wrote:
| I'm not sure where you live, but in the US, the
| government has done a terrible job with capital
| allocation and for every dollar given to the government
| in taxes what % do you think goes to helping those in
| need who deserve the help?
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| > A better solution imho would be to celebrate success but
| to also encourage the successful to share their insights
| with others so as to spread the fortune
|
| Ideally yes. Though IME often the advice isn't applicable,
| so beyond a few fundamentals they break down. For example I
| cannot un-have kids, and getting a master's or doing a
| startup on the side would basically require neglecting them
| for too long. (Or quiting my day job and burning through
| our savings.) Lifestyle advice like modest living or moving
| far away also requires buy in from an SO or a painful break
| up/divorce. It's also a risk since they may change their
| mind early in the plan. Or they may decide the outcome
| wasn't worth the sacrifice and want to (or you to) return
| to the grind.
| darkwater wrote:
| They were not poor either. So, you were still born in a
| better place than the vast majority of humans. And that's not
| your merit at all.
| marcellus23 wrote:
| It's also not his fault at all.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| Nobody said it was "his fault" and that is obviously not
| the point of the acknowledgement starting the post.
| refurb wrote:
| So you agree he shouldn't feel guilty.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| Guilty? No. Lucky? Yes.
|
| I think the point of privilege discourse is to undermine
| the notion of moral "desert," not to encourage guilt over
| something beyond your control.
| hhmc wrote:
| Sure, but thinking privilege is equatable to guilt is
| missing the point.
| marcellus23 wrote:
| I don't think anyone said that. Lots of people _do_ think
| you should feel guilt for privilege. Pretending those
| people don't exist isn't helping the progressive
| movement. It's important for progressives to acknowledge
| and counter the people who wave the progressive flag but
| espouse the opposite of progressive ideals.
| joshuamorton wrote:
| That's literally what the first two comments on this
| thread say.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| I disagree. I see vastly more people claiming that
| privilege acknowledgement is tied in with guilt who
| oppose the notion of "privilege" than I see "lots of
| people" espousing the notion of privilege guilt who
| actually think we should talk about privilege.
|
| I don't personally believe in reparations as commonly
| framed, but saying that reparations ought to be paid is
| also not the same thing as saying people should feel
| _guilty_ for actions they didn 't take.
|
| > It's important for progressives to acknowledge and
| counter the people who wave the progressive flag but
| espouse the opposite of progressive ideals.
|
| I think this can be taken too far. Disavowal can be
| important at times, but I find there is often a trend
| among the Right to highlight random views held by an
| extremely small minority of people (ie. a single tweeting
| American among 315 million Americans) and demand a
| disavowal of that rhetoric. I think this is in bad faith.
|
| This comment thread, in my view, is emblematic of this in
| that simply by using the word "privilege" we are now
| being asked to disavow something that some nebulous "lots
| of people" attach to that word, even though the word was
| clearly not being used in that context here.
| marcellus23 wrote:
| Frankly, it's not a strawman. Look on twitter and you'll
| find plenty of evidence of that kind of thinking.
|
| > but I find there is often a trend among the Right to
| highlight random views held by an extremely small
| minority of people (ie. a single tweeting American among
| 315 million Americans) and demand a disavowal of that
| rhetoric. I think this is in bad faith.
|
| Agreed. Where I disagree is that the left doesn't do this
| exact same thing, or that these views are held by "a
| single tweet" and not, say, entire online communities.
|
| For the record, I generally agree with you, but to the
| same extent that avowal can go too far, it is very easy
| to go too far in assuming all ridiculous positions on our
| side are strawmen. A lot of people do think that way.
| Nothing wrong with acknowledging privilege -- but you
| don't need to feel personally guilty over things out of
| your control like your inherited wealth or your skin
| color. I think we can all agree on that.
| [deleted]
| hhmc wrote:
| > Lots of people _do_ think you should feel guilt for
| privilege.
|
| Except I don't see anyone in this comment thread actully
| expousing that belief. I _do_ however see a lot of people
| strawmanning it.
| marcellus23 wrote:
| This thread does not contain the entirety of discourse
| about privilege.
| hhmc wrote:
| Sure, but that's a thought-terminating argument.
| solveit wrote:
| Yes yes, in the end everyone's success can be distilled
| down to luck or environment (which we were born into so
| also luck) or inborn qualities (which are also luck). Merit
| does not exist and everything is luck.
|
| Or we could notice that merit is still a useful concept,
| that good decisionmaking is a skill regardless of whether
| everyone is in a position to use it, and that the previous
| poster's parents made decisions that were highly beneficial
| to their child, above and beyond what other parents in
| comparable situations might have, and that the poster is
| _quite right_ to be thankful for that. Which funnily enough
| is the only opinion they voiced, so it 's rather a mystery
| what your needlessly nasty comment is replying to.
| wiseowise wrote:
| Who cares? You can only be proud of your achievements if
| you were born the bottom of the bottoms?
| simpleguitar wrote:
| I disagree with everything you've said.
|
| The only difference between myself and my other friends (who
| also have advanced degrees from top universities in the bay
| area) is that I abandoned my field of study and jumped into
| tech.
|
| After 10 years, we have vastly different financial outcomes
| now.
|
| A lot of hard working, well educated, dedicated people
| struggle financially around here, because they happened to
| not choose tech.
|
| Add in the teachers and other under-appreciated careers, I do
| feel guilty that I should have so much, and they so little.
| jackcosgrove wrote:
| Part of working smart rather than working hard is seeing
| the salary signals the market is sending and responding to
| them strategically. This is worth more than mastering a
| skill that is saturated with competition relative to
| demand.
|
| It took me a long time to accept this as I was wedded to
| the idea that hard work and skill alone should be well
| compensated. But that hard work and skill needs to be
| pointed in a good direction in the first place.
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| > This is worth more than mastering a skill that is
| saturated with competition relative to demand.
|
| The job market is not an efficient market. It doesn't
| respond to offer and demand signals.
|
| Nurses have been in short supply in most of the developed
| world for the past three decades yet are still paid
| peanuts. It's all about your proximity to the handling of
| money and historical trend. That's why even people doing
| menial jobs in banking are well compensated while people
| working in heavy industries are paid relatively little
| compared to the complexity of their jobs.
| simpleguitar wrote:
| My grief (and grieving) is not with this.
|
| If you had an advanced degree in math or physics, hedge
| funds in NYC was always an option to maximize your talent
| in exchange for money. But one also had an option to
| choose something different and still make an upper middle
| class living.
|
| It seems these days, only the finance/tech offer such
| living. NOT choosing tech is choosing barely middle class
| living, and everyone else is delegated to hand-to-mouth
| living.
| deagle50 wrote:
| Where I live (DC) most people are not in tech and they
| still have an upper middle class lifestyle working for
| the Federal government or a contractor (in a non-tech
| role). Nationally, purchasing power has been declining
| for many years.
|
| Besides Fed Gov, Tech/finance are the probably the only
| sectors left with large work forces, great margins, a
| culture of rewarding talent (vs health care for example),
| AND rooted in the USA (vs manufacturing and heavy
| industry). These factors combine to create a super class
| of tech/finance labor.
| ak217 wrote:
| There is a difference between acknowledging privilege and
| feeling guilty.
|
| I got a fantastic education at two of the best public
| universities in the US, mostly funded by public money. Do I
| feel guilty about it? No. But I acknowledge that it was only
| possible because of policy choices made by Americans who came
| before me.
| Invictus0 wrote:
| Just move then, your feet aren't bolted to the ground.
| DogLover_ wrote:
| You can't "just move". It is quite difficult to get into the
| US
| stackbutterflow wrote:
| Is it harder to get into the US or the EU?
| DogLover_ wrote:
| I am not the right person to ask. I assume it is easier
| getting into EU but I can't say for sure
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| Just some anecdotal experience from talking to several
| French people that worked at the USA company I was at on
| visas, USA is pretty much the hardest (of the desirable
| places) in the world to emigrate to.
|
| Several of them ended up going to Canada because it was
| significantly easier and had a reasonable tech scene in
| the Toronto area
| odiroot wrote:
| I have no experience with trying to get into US but I
| know the situation of my friends who came to EU.
| Generally you can forget about it without a good degree
| (e.g. Eng, Msc or MD).
|
| Of course you could also come as a student and finish
| your education within EU. In some countries you can even
| do it for free.
| amelius wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo
| bjornsing wrote:
| If I could give my younger self some advice it would probably
| be: slack off, or leave.
|
| If you are talented and enjoy slacking off then you can have
| a pretty nice lifestyle in Sweden. Most of the exceptionally
| talented engineers I know work part time as consultants.
| garmaine wrote:
| Markus Persson?
| Shaanie wrote:
| Of course you can always start up a successful company, but
| that's not really relevant in this thread.
| senko wrote:
| For anyone interested in this or being skeptical it's achievable
| on a non-US-FAANG salary, check out: Common Sense Investing
| (https://m.youtube.com/c/BenFelixCSI) and The Plain Bagel
| (https://m.youtube.com/c/ThePlainBagel).
|
| Both channels are by Canadians so have a world focus (not just
| US), and talk about financial literacy in general.
| tiagobraw wrote:
| > but as someone without children
|
| this is a huge factor that influences almost every other decision
| he listed there: - living with roommates or renting a cheap
| apartment - not wanting to buy an apartment - having the time to
| do side hustles - even changing career paths is challenging when
| you have a family to take care of - saving the majority of his
| annual compensation
|
| I don't want to say his advices are bad, just keep in mind that
| it's not applicable to everyone
| amelius wrote:
| Also, advice depends on the generation the author is part of.
| Millennials have more difficulty getting to financial
| independence than, say, baby boomers or Gen-Xers had.
| jl6 wrote:
| Whenever anyone offers any advice on any subject at all, I find
| it essential to determine whether they have kids or not,
| because the with-kids solution set seems to be entirely
| different to the without-kids solution set.
| JCM9 wrote:
| This is the fallacy with this approach IMHO. Yes you can save a
| ton my living on minimal spend with no kids. That's also not a
| life many/most people desire to live.
|
| I'll all for saving and do broadly follow a similar approach.
| With kids I won't be retiring in my 30s or 40s but I'm
| investing in life now so that when I do retire it's a much more
| well rounded and wholesome experience.
|
| To each their own, but most of the "I'm not gonna have kids and
| just save all my money" types I know say later they made a poor
| life choice that's hard to fix once that realization is made.
|
| The main advice I do agree with is just because you start
| earning more doesn't mean you should start spending more.
| Living comfortably below one's means is a good way to build
| wealth over time. I just don't recommend the "extreme" version
| of this.
| skybrian wrote:
| I think you are right except for calling it a fallacy. It's a
| choice that most people don't take.
| andreilys wrote:
| _To each their own, but most of the "I'm not gonna have kids
| and just save all my money" types I know say later they made
| a poor life choice that's hard to fix once that realization
| is made._
|
| You can make the same sweeping generalization with parents
| who raise kids that are ungrateful and/or complete
| disappointments.
|
| I know plenty of parents that feel abandoned by their
| children, who only get a courtesy call once or twice a year.
| Or worst, children who are continuing to be a financial
| burden in their 20s/30s/etc.
|
| Very few parents will admit to the fact they regret having
| children. But the regret is there.
| refurb wrote:
| With that income? Sure, if kids came into the picture during
| the last day 3-4 years it would increase his expenses, but he'd
| presumably also have another income, at least for a few years?
|
| I don't disagree that for middle income earners kids are a huge
| expense, but when you're making $350,000+ each year, $30,000
| for childcare isn't a dramatic expense. Same with all the
| incidentals.
| martincmartin wrote:
| The biggest expense is college, at least in the U.S. If you
| retire before they apply, you may want to be conservative and
| set aside the cost of the most expensive college. MIT is
| $77k/year [1]. For two kids, that's $616k. And it increases
| faster than inflation, estimate 6%/yr. If you have enough
| money in the bank that you're financially independent, they
| won't qualify for need based aid, you'll have to pay the
| sticker price.
|
| Columbia is more expensive.
|
| And if one of them wants to become a doctor or lawyer, now
| you need to pay for grad school too.
|
| [1] https://sfs.mit.edu/billing-repayment/undergraduate-
| tuition-...
| stagger87 wrote:
| Using numbers from only top private schools makes your
| point fall a bit flat.
| ac29 wrote:
| Seriously. I went to public school, and the 2022
| estimated cost of attendance, including tuition, room,
| food, books, transportation and personal expenses is
| around $30k/year. Certainly not cheap, but over $20k of
| that is just the living expenses. Tuition is relatively
| affordable.
| kfajdsl wrote:
| Every time I see things like this it makes me so grateful
| that we have a state scholarship (HOPE). I pay like $200 a
| semester on tuition, then around $1000 on other school
| fees.
|
| If I don't have to relocate for job opportunities
| (currently in Atlanta), I plan to stay here and encourage
| any future children to stay in-state. That's of course
| assuming that the state doesn't kill off HOPE by then.
| refurb wrote:
| Not going to lie, but Americans paying 100% of their kids
| college is kinda weird as an immigrant.
|
| My kid can take out loans and sure I'll help, but hell no
| I'm not bank rolling multiple kids at full private school
| tuition.
|
| At least where I grew up a solid public school college was
| not an impediment to a good career.
|
| I've notice Americans tend to hyper-optimize - I love it
| when parents tell me they bought in Palo Alto because the
| public school was rated a 9.3/10 versus San Mateo at
| 9.1/10.
| rubidium wrote:
| " Americans paying 100% of their kids college is kinda".
| As a non immigrant it's weird to me too.
|
| There are a class of parents who obsess about "the best".
| Best schools, best tutors, best nutrition, best
| 'experiences', best neighborhood. It's a hedonistic
| treadmill in the making.
| refurb wrote:
| Exactly. Saving $200k per kid for private college is not
| a "need" its a luxury. But a lot of upper class Americans
| see it as the "baseline".
| dan-robertson wrote:
| It's also worth noting that the OP did most of these things at
| a young age, when most people don't have kids anyway. Though
| they may find that that $2.4m won't generate sufficient income
| if they do have kids, but then I think they could probably just
| go back to work if necessary.
| dnate wrote:
| I'm living with my son and girlfriend with a roommate. It's
| doable if you are open minded, know open minded people and
| don't care too much what society thinks a family should look
| like. An honestly, it's great to have a buddy right at home in
| these social isolation times.
| MichaelRazum wrote:
| Just curious. How does live develop in such case? I mean working
| at a FAANG isn't that bad at all, even if you don't have to work
| any more. Love the idea of "doing" startup's, but guess even with
| 1-2m$ you have only few shots.
| sillycube wrote:
| kosmotaur wrote:
| 625k a year? Doing what exactly? Good for you, but I have never
| seen a spec with even a third of that salary. Or is it that it's
| only FAANG who's paying that big?
| daniel-thompson wrote:
| https://www.levels.fyi is a good resource for learning about
| this.
| kolinko wrote:
| Stock options - it's mentioned in the article.
| kosmotaur wrote:
| What proportion that must have been compared to the base!
| Even if it was 60% the base is still mind blowing.
| uyt wrote:
| https://www.levels.fyi/company/Amazon/salaries/Software-
| Engi...
| paganel wrote:
| Never set foot in SV nor in the States, but from half a
| world away it does seem that that figure (i.e. ~600k) for
| total yearly comp at a FAANG company, given OP's
| experience, is in the general ballpark, so to speak.
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| Closer to ~30% base. The big money comes from stock comp,
| not salary.
| joshuamorton wrote:
| He's at Amazon, so the base salary doesn't exceed 185k (and
| probably 160k).
| DrAwdeOccarim wrote:
| Just to add an additional avenue for any people earlier in their
| career, starting salaries for research associates (bench-based
| wet lab work) in the Boston area right now, fresh out of
| undergrad with a 4-year degree, is $100k.
| Thristle wrote:
| My SO just started a PHD in chem eng, before she decided we
| looked for some open positions and found nothing/low paying
| (40-50K a year) jobs for _grads_.
|
| I guess everything IS bigger in the USA
| astura wrote:
| If we are comparing this to the article you'd need a starting
| salary of ~$128,000 in 2021 dollars to have a comparable salary
| of $100,000 in 2009 dollars, fwiw.
| DrAwdeOccarim wrote:
| Totally. With a masters, starting salary is $120k, so much
| more in line with OP. Also, OP is total comp, which a BS hits
| with equity and bonus targets.
| uuu23ioj23iJI2i wrote:
| thisistheend123 wrote:
| I have a noob question:
|
| If everyone thought and lived like this. Save everything, don't
| spend too much, don't have kids etc. Would it not lead us into a
| world where there is not enough economic activity and growth.
|
| And the money that you do have in that case would not be worth
| much anyway..
| hackflip wrote:
| Yes. But not everyone thinks like this.
| _dark_matter_ wrote:
| It's hard to say exactly what would happen. Generally it's hard
| in the short term, as businesses deal with decreased demand.
| Long term, it means the population is less susceptible to
| global downturns, and can more easily ride out personal income
| loss.
| giantg2 wrote:
| "I learnt that even an average engineer with a five-figure salary
| can become a millionaire by her late 30s, through financial
| discipline and investment planning."
|
| Yet this is not what the article is about! $300k+ is not
| something an average engineer makes. No shit you can become a
| multimillionaire if you're pulling in half a million every year.
| deanmoriarty wrote:
| I do not understand why articles like these consistently score
| poorly on HN? Of course it's all based on luck, but that doesn't
| make it an uninteresting read. I admire the diligence of the
| author, and how well they played the lucky cards they were given.
|
| I am frequently in awe when reading technical articles on HN,
| with people advancing the state of the art in some technology.
| Those people also are incredibly lucky, because they were born
| with massive talents that, through sacrifices and education, they
| transformed into life achievements.
|
| As an average software engineer I was not lucky enough to be born
| with cognitive skills that will ever allow me to reach those
| technical highs, but that is not a reason to crap on it saying
| "Just luck! Just genetic/environmental luck!".
|
| Similarly, I don't typically read from others: "It's easy for you
| to rewrite the Linux kernel in JavaScript over a weekend, your
| work is just luck because you were born a genius in a developed
| country so all your achievements need to be discounted and you
| have no merits!".
|
| I suspect when it comes to compensation talk people tend on
| average to get more bitter than they should otherwise be.
|
| Maybe I take this to heart because I made significant sacrifices
| to immigrate to the US and, while I was immensely lucky to
| succeed in the endeavor, most people I know would have never
| taken those uncomfortable steps (leaving family behind in a
| different country, sacrifice personal space by frugal living in a
| HCOL area as opposed to a LCOL area with a house and backyard for
| the kids, ...), yet they will happily "complain" that my
| compensation is much higher than theirs, and that there is no
| merit to it, rather than simply admitting that they willingly
| chose a different path in life, but they could have chased my
| same opportunities with largely the same financial outcome.
|
| If I was reading this article and I was not a tech worker in the
| US but interested in getting those compensations, my first
| reaction would be "damn, let me research what are the options for
| legal immigration to the US and let me start down a path that has
| good odds of me landing a tech job over there within 5-10 years".
| It would not be "let me complain on HN how the country I am a
| forever-prisoner in has a 90% effective tax rate so that I feel
| good about my situation".
| endisneigh wrote:
| > rather than simply admitting that they willingly chose a
| different path in life, but they could have chased my same
| opportunities with largely the same financial outcome.
|
| Let's suppose everyone did this, how do you see it turning out?
|
| Who will do all of the other things?
| deanmoriarty wrote:
| I don't want to dismiss your question, but to be honest I
| don't know how to answer it. Maybe if everyone did it new
| arbitrage opportunities would arise so that it would become
| more lucrative to move somewhere else where there is a demand
| for services that nobody is doing anymore? But I am not an
| economist so I am not interested in reading 50 pedantic
| comments about how my previous sentence is inaccurate.
|
| I do not concern myself with non-practical (in my opinion)
| matters because I know that the vast majority of people will
| not take that path, so it's likely not an issue.
| evv555 wrote:
| >I do not concern myself with non-practical (in my opinion)
| matters because I know that the vast majority of people
| will not take that path, so it's likely not an issue.
|
| Vanguard index funds are basically meme stock status in
| large part because of articles like this. So arguably it's
| already happening and distorting prices.
| bradlys wrote:
| It already is. Along with the companies. The top tier
| paying companies are flooded with candidates and
| difficult to get into because of articles like this.
|
| People are already doing all this. Probably about as many
| that ever could. It's why the interview process is so
| ridiculous and keeps getting more difficult.
| endisneigh wrote:
| What...?
|
| You said:
|
| > rather than simply admitting that they willingly chose a
| different path in life, but they could have chased my same
| opportunities with largely the same financial outcome.
|
| But then you also say
|
| > I do not concern myself with non-practical (in my
| opinion) matters
|
| The "concern" is your own advice.
| deanmoriarty wrote:
| I find your comment incredibly pedantic (just my opinion,
| no offense).
|
| In my opinion, a practical matter is a single person
| (specifically, one of my peers in my home country
| complaining about my compensation without taking any
| action) deciding to make sacrifices to immigrate to the
| US.
|
| A non-practical matter is worrying about everyone in my
| home country deciding to do the same.
| endisneigh wrote:
| I don't see what's pedantic about it.
|
| Do you believe someone who were to try to take the same
| path as you could have the same financial outcome today?
|
| How would it change if they couldn't get to the USA?
| deanmoriarty wrote:
| > Do you believe someone who were to try to take the same
| path as you could have the same financial outcome today?
|
| Yes, I do believe that, the odds of legally entering the
| US with a CS degree are still largely the same of when I
| entered a few years ago and are reasonably attainable
| with enough perseverance over a few years, there are
| different academic and worker visas that can all be used
| to get a foot in the door. Also, the job demand is
| significantly higher today than it used to be a few years
| ago. New grads can make $200k+ compensation, my comp as a
| new grad was like $35k and I still did fine.
|
| Naturally going down this path will require significant
| sacrifices, as per my original comment. You need to be
| willing to be very frugal and likely move away from
| parents, friends and family, and not knowing for many
| years what your final immigration status will be (as you
| move from temporary visas to permanent visas to green
| card etc.). In my case, it also means no kids, no car,
| etc. (similar life as the author, I assume).
|
| My whole point, let's please not forget, is that on
| average people are not willing to make the above
| sacrifices but they still like to loudly complain when
| folks share articles like this one.
|
| > How would it change if they couldn't get to the USA?
|
| The odds are good they will, in my opinion. If they
| won't, there are other options. Sampling my friends:
|
| - if you are slightly more entrepreneurial, move to
| another tax-favorable country like Malta (similar tax
| rates as US) and contract with American companies, with
| financial outcomes largely similar to mine.
|
| - if you just want a typical employee experience, Canada
| is also a really good option that many of my European
| friends who didn't want to go through the US immigration
| gauntlet chose, and they are doing very well.
|
| Once again, all these decisions take sacrifices but they
| are relatively attainable.
| blastonico wrote:
| +1
|
| I'm a typical average joe, but I love reading these because I'm
| learning from them what to do when I have such resource.
|
| Yeah, there're people luckier than me, but I'm increasing my
| odds in a variety of endeavors and improving my skills. I'm far
| from my goal yet, but results are very encouraging so far.
| barbazoo wrote:
| Learning what though? Rake in half a million in salary a
| year, save most of it? No shit, I had no idea.
| giantg2 wrote:
| "I do not understand why articles like these consistently score
| poorly on HN?"
|
| Because the article pisses me off. This is not something
| helpful to us average peasants. No shit you can become a
| multimillionaire if you're pulling in over half a million per
| year. Maybe some of the advice I'd good, but it would be worth
| more coming from someone who actually is average so we can see
| it as evidence. Otherwise it's some rich person telling us what
| works based on their theory and an experience that's nothing
| like our's.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| The implication of the article, that such compensation is
| reasonably possible to a moderately competent software
| developer working for big companies in the United States,
| seems pretty reasonable to me. Another thing one could note
| is the bump in compensation in recent years, which could be a
| combination of stock going up, more experience making the
| author a more valuable employee, or market rates for software
| engineers at large software companies have gone up.
|
| None of the numbers strike me as particularly unusual for the
| author's circumstances, so if they strike you as unusual (and
| you are able to work in the US), then it might be worth
| considering trying to get yourself into similar employment,
| if that's what you'd want. If you can't work in the US,
| things are different and potentially a lot worse, but the
| other thing the OP states is that a professional on a more
| modest income ought to be able to do well making sensible
| investments[1] and cutting costs. I think that's true in
| basically any developed country.
|
| You claim that the author's route was not average, but I
| think it probably was reasonably average for a software
| engineer working at large US tech companies in NYC/SF/Silicon
| Valley. The less average thing is perhaps saving lots of
| money, making reasonable investments, and not having a load
| of expensive kids.
|
| [1] e.g. 60% of the increase in net worth between 2020 and
| 2021 comes from investments rather than the 'earning half a
| million dollars a year' and those investments came from
| earning less than that (obviously such incomes still
| generally aren't available to people who aren't software
| engineers at big US tech companies, and it may be reasonable
| to complain that a path that >100k people follow is
| unreasonable but within this path I think it's pretty
| reasonable).
| giantg2 wrote:
| "I learnt that even an average engineer with a five-figure
| salary can become a millionaire by her late 30s, through
| financial discipline and investment planning."
|
| Then why doe the article mention average as part of the
| target audience?
|
| "The implication of the article, that such compensation is
| reasonably possible to a moderately competent software
| developer working for big companies in the United States,
| seems pretty reasonable to me."
|
| I'm moderately compentent and work for a large company. Why
| do I make under $100k? It seems your perspective might be
| skewed as it is not common, as evidenced by the median dev
| salary of about $105k.
|
| "None of the numbers strike me as particularly unusual for
| the author's circumstances, so if they strike you as
| unusual (and you are able to work in the US), then it might
| be worth considering trying to get yourself into similar
| employment, if that's what you'd want."
|
| Again, I think there's a drastic perception issue here.
| These number are by definition unusual or rare given the
| median. It's simply not possible for an average person like
| me to make that kind of money.
|
| "60% of the increase in net worth between 2020 and 2021
| comes from investments rather than the 'earning half a
| million dollars a year' and those investments came from
| earning less than that (obviously such incomes still
| generally aren't available to people who aren't software
| engineers at big US tech companies, and it may be
| reasonable to complain that a path that >100k people follow
| is unreasonable but within this path I think it's pretty
| reasonable)."
|
| And again, the majority of the US devs fall at or below the
| median, putting them right around or under that $100k
| number.
|
| So yeah, use "normal" people get a little pissed off with
| people telling us that it's not unusual to be making
| multiple times our salaries and we could easily achieve
| this too if only we were "moderately competent".
| gxespino wrote:
| "It's simply not possible for an average person like me
| to make that kind of money."
|
| Putting these sort of limitations on yourself, from my
| experience, will dampen the effort that you put in to
| achieve new levels, if you even try at all. That reduced
| effort will result in exactly what you predicted for
| yourself.
|
| So, begs the question, what sort of effort have you put
| in to increase your pay past the median dev salary.
| giantg2 wrote:
| Masters, extra hours, working above my level, taking on
| extra responsibility, volunteering for initiatives at
| work, working on personal projects in my own time,
| multiple certs, business acumen certs, etc.
|
| The number of opportunities to make significantly more
| money are exceedingly rare. Especially with family
| constraints like not being allowed to move or no longer
| able to work extensive unplanned extra hours due to
| childcare responsibilities.
| gxespino wrote:
| You have the resume for sure.
|
| Have you worked on your social/emotional
| intelligence/interviewing skills?
| ac29 wrote:
| > such compensation is reasonably possible to a moderately
| competent software developer working for big companies in
| the United States
|
| The author made $625k in compensation this year. Even for
| large US tech companies, that's far above the "moderately
| competent" level. According to levels.fyi, this is
| approximately what a Principal SWE makes at Amazon, the
| third highest compensation level listed.
| crakhamster01 wrote:
| My guess would be a higher end SDE3/L6 - I believe Amazon
| backloads their vesting schedule so the jump seems
| reasonable?
| giantg2 wrote:
| Rational, maybe. Reasonable, not from my perspective.
| joshuamorton wrote:
| You're looking at take-home, while levels.fyi shows
| granted amounts. AMZN and GOOG have both ~tripled since
| early 2018, so if you joined with a large stock grant
| (and as the other user mentioned, amazon's are
| backloaded), you'd be getting 3x the modelled amount. So
| someone who joined with a 160K salary and 400K stock
| grant at Amazon, which is modelled compensation of just a
| bit over 250K would take home 160K + .4 * 400K * 3 = 640K
| this year. That translates to the high side of L5 or low
| side of L6 at amazon, which is to say well within the
| "Senior" band.
| AYBABTME wrote:
| The average joe who'd write this blogpost wouldn't be an
| average joe anymore. The reality is that most of us in tech
| can aspire to the author's outcome, with high probability of
| success. The odds are stacked in our favor. If we're willing
| to do the moves and do the "sacrifices", most of us can pull
| it off. But in the end you need the right attitude, and some
| advice about good strategies, like the author is giving out.
|
| I think the cynical perspective is entirely exaggerated in
| the software industry. It's also an awful way to look at
| things, almost guaranteeing a self-fulfilling prophecy.
| giantg2 wrote:
| "The reality is that most of us in tech can aspire to the
| author's outcome, with high probability of success."
|
| This simply isn't true. Most people cannot retire after 12
| years of working, even in tech. The median software dev
| salary in the US is about $105k. You cannot reasonably earn
| $2.4M when you make about half of that during those 12
| years.
| AYBABTME wrote:
| It's not hard to move up the quantiles if you put the
| effort. It doesn't require ivy league education, a rich
| family, or a particularly genius mind. The mean salary is
| useless in quantifying wether you, as an individual, have
| any agency in influencing your outcome. Your attitude
| toward it, however, has a lot to do with it. And surely
| starting with the assumption that it's impossible doesn't
| put the odds in your favor.
|
| In any case, 105k median income just goes to tell how big
| the opportunity is.
| giantg2 wrote:
| "It's not hard to move up the quantiles if you put the
| effort."
|
| The statistics paint a different picture - there are only
| so many jobs above the median.
|
| "In any case, 105k median income just goes to tell how
| big the opportunity is."
|
| You mean limited? Clearly this is multiples lower than
| the author.
|
| "The mean salary is useless in quantifying wether you, as
| an individual, have any agency in influencing your
| outcome."
|
| No, not really. It allows you to set realistic
| expectations and understand the job market.
| AYBABTME wrote:
| I'm not going to change your mood but I hope someone else
| reading this interaction early in their career will come
| out of it with an optimistic mindset instead of a cynical
| one. It pays off better.
| giantg2 wrote:
| I hope they are realistic. I was optimistic but was
| repeated crushed. It would be better they prepare for the
| disappointment and negative outcomes, because life is an
| endless parade of them.
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| I'm early in my career and I'm bullish on myself, but I
| would never go around preaching that there's a "high
| probability of success" of a SWE making >$500k because
| clearly there is not.
|
| I'm bullish because I have evidence to support that
| possibility. Most people have zero evidence that they
| would ever make >$500k, let alone having a "high
| probability of success".
| AYBABTME wrote:
| But you don't need to pull 500k/y to end up with >1M$
| after 12y. Just compound interest will get you there
| rather quickly if you save half of your 105k median dev
| salary. Of course doing so isn't comfortable, but I'm
| sure you can agree it's doable.
|
| Also while 500k/y is a stretch and usually occurs due to
| stock appreciation (not salary), you can reasonably
| assume that landing a job at big tech will lead you to a
| 300k total comp within 12y. If you care enough to play
| the career game.
| lordnacho wrote:
| Keep in mind you can be disappointed in more than one
| way. Either you tried the impossible with an optimistic
| mindset and failed anyway, or you failed at something
| doable because you took pessimistic choices.
|
| It's not actually obvious which category this is in.
| gxespino wrote:
| Yes, but the optimistic mindset would probably have a
| better outcome than the latter regardless if they failed
| to meet their original expectations or not.
| giantg2 wrote:
| That's what an optimistic person would say. A pessimistic
| person might believe they have a better outcome because
| of hedging against the pessimistic possibilities.
|
| It seems we should need objective data to filter through
| the bias.
| AYBABTME wrote:
| There's research supporting the optimist strategy but
| I'll be lame in that I can't link you to it without
| searching for it longer than I can dedicate time for. I
| think Codex Alpha talked about it fwiw. Personally, I'm
| in the "shoot for the stars, hope for the moon" camp.
| Pragmatic optimism or realistic optimism? Some such.
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| If you have an optimistic mindset and poor abilities, how
| does that translate to a better outcome than a
| pessimistic mindset?
| gxespino wrote:
| You worked on improving your poor abilities rather than
| accepting it as just.
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| You can work on your abilities and be pessimistic though.
| They aren't mutually exclusive.
| AYBABTME wrote:
| Yes but it's harder, so your expected outcome is lower.
| gxespino wrote:
| I understand where you're getting at.
|
| I think many pessimistic people don't start or give up
| earlier and this leads to the self fulfilling prophecy.
|
| Could be wrong, objective data would be needed for sure.
| sakopov wrote:
| Well, ultimately it's about the advice here. If someone asks
| you how to achieve financial independence and you tell them to
| just make half a mil working at FAANG, your advice is going to
| get filed under the "no shit" folder. I also don't quite follow
| how the author claims to have achieved financial independence
| while relying on a $600K/yr salary from Amazon. This isn't the
| type of content folks usually expect. I think for most people
| it'll be about using their salaries to their potential via
| smart investing and compounding, while focusing their free time
| on generating alternative streams of income which will
| supplement their existing salary. I think this is the
| foundation of most "financial independence" stories. With that
| said, I do think that the article is very inspirational to most
| engineers on here. I'm a fellow immigrant who has achieved a
| bit in my life in the US, but not nearly as much in terms of
| salary. I'm still grateful and very content knowing that the
| ceiling is as high as I pretty much want it to be.
| refurb wrote:
| As a fellow immigrant who never hit these kinds of incomes I
| agree. It's an interesting read, the author is humble enough to
| realize his result involved a good portion of luck.
|
| I judge my own progress by where I was 10 years ago, not where
| some random internet author is today.
| rexreed wrote:
| The reason why I think these articles score poorly is because I
| think my reaction is like most reactions (not all, but most). I
| read the article, saw the salary table, did an eyeroll, and
| then skimmed the rest. The article can be summed up as "get a
| high paying job in a career that requires technical skills,
| save more than you spend, and invest what you save". Did I miss
| anything in that summarization?
| mirker wrote:
| The part where their salary wasn't very good in the salary
| table; you have to play the market, which is currently
| favorable toward software engineering.
|
| I'm not sure what people are expecting. Eating rice and beans
| on $100k is still less than $100k savings.
| leetcrew wrote:
| I mean yeah, step one is almost always "make more money than
| most people on earth", which is obviously not an attainable
| goal for most people. if you're already on the right track,
| it's not terribly interesting to read. but being a
| disciplined saver and making reasonable investment choices is
| surprisingly uncommon even among people who do actually have
| the prerequisite income.
|
| something about it just doesn't click in the minds of some
| people. I have a buddy that's been poor (like, rice and beans
| and still missing rent) his whole life. yet somehow whenever
| he receives some sort of windfall, he spends thousands of
| dollars faster than I do on a >$150k salary. he finally got a
| good job making ~$80k and his first thought was "I'm gonna
| get a nice 3BR apartment". he lives by himself with no
| children or pets! maybe if enough articles like this popped
| up in his feed, he would understand the issue with his
| approach.
| andreilys wrote:
| There's some other tactical advice which is self-evident if
| you spend any time working in tech but for outsiders it might
| not be clear.
|
| For example he talks about interviewing every 3 years, and
| keeping your interview skills sharp. Specifically he says
| _Practicing your interview skills is the best financial
| investment you can make_
|
| This IMO is the best way to grow your compensation, the way
| companies structure their compensation is often at odds with
| inflation and market conditions. If you're not regularly
| checking your market value via interviews, you will become
| underpaid.
|
| Again I didn't learn anything I didn't know already, but I
| think this does a good job of giving tactical advice to
| someone unfamiliar with the concept of a achieving financial
| independence via high tech.
| Aeolun wrote:
| > Did I miss anything in that summarization?
|
| Have no children?
|
| Not only because they eat money, but your priorities will do
| a complete 180.
| astura wrote:
| They also advocate living with roommates. It's usually not
| feasible (or desirable) to live with roommates if you have
| children.
| rexreed wrote:
| And also, the article says "don't buy a house". I put both
| of these into the principle of save more than you spend.
| Some of us consider those necessities in life, however, and
| we're willing to make the necessary tradeoffs.
| ac29 wrote:
| The article doesn't say "don't buy a house", it says
| there are pros and cons to home ownership, which is true.
|
| Buying and selling homes is extremely expensive - it
| doesnt make sense for someone who wants to have the
| ability to move with little friction. Its also putting a
| lot of one's financial resources into a single asset. A
| housing market downturn could be financially ruinous, a
| series of expensive repairs could easily cost far more
| than an entire year's of rent. Property tax, maintenance,
| and potential HOA fees mean that even after paying off
| your mortgage, you're never actually free of ongoing
| housing expenses.
|
| However, if you have kids or other ties to an area,
| owning housing can help make your expenses both lower and
| more predictable than renting. Over long enough periods
| of time, the housing market also tends to go up, which
| means it can be a good investment.
| [deleted]
| fundad wrote:
| Eat money and poop work
| bobwaycott wrote:
| Thanks for the laugh.
|
| Thanks for the second laugh when I thought, "What a fun
| dad joke" and saw your username. :)
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| My guess is some of the push back is because these kinds of
| articles seem tantalizingly prescriptive yet often bake in
| assumptions or choices that are unattainable for most.
|
| Things like be born smart enough to land 6 figure job (or high
| 5 figures 20yo), be born into the middle/upper class, don't
| have extended family dependencies, don't have kids, don't have
| an SO or find one willing accept all the constraints, accept
| living in modest accomodations for the duration, or that now is
| roughly the same as when they started.
| gadrev wrote:
| This is on the disclaimer and several other comments already, but
| I can't help commenting.
|
| Unavoidably: US based, 6 figures right from the start. You're
| pretty much half way there already.
|
| Just happen to live in the US, work and don't be stupid
| financially. I guess it also helps not having a big "student
| debt" (that's also not US exclusive but US typical, since in many
| other countries education is cheaper - subsidized and you don't
| gradutate with a debt. ATL not a personal debt). But since
| there's so much tech demand in the US irrespective of education,
| you can often skip college and follow a different path. But not
| if you have to immigrate with a student visa to go the H1B way,
| haha!
|
| The casualness with which you can earn those amounts of money and
| then lecture (not this particular post, more like the trend) on
| "retire at 40" or "financial independence in 10 yrs" is a bit
| tiring (from an outside perspective, and in a harmless-envious
| way) but all the best to those that are in a position to make it.
| Yes, casualness in a relative sense, not implying you don't have
| to work or anything like that.
|
| Congrats to OP.
| vr46 wrote:
| I was expecting financial advice in the post but there wasn't
| any. There wasn't much of any substance either, but it sounds
| like the OP is still young and has some interesting plans to
| follow-through with.
| pyrale wrote:
| Turns out, earning half a million dollars every year makes it
| easy to be a millionaire after a few years.
| soufron wrote:
| Best comment! Nailed it down! :D
| sergiotapia wrote:
| sneak wrote:
| Your flip comment seems to belie the fact that he's only earned
| at least a half a million dollars for _one_ year. Most of his
| years he earned substantially less than that.
|
| The majority of his NW comes from investment and savings, not
| income.
|
| The point of the article is that cutting expenses, saving,
| investing wisely, and aggressively pursuing pay raises can
| yield a few million well before retirement age.
|
| These sort of casual dismissals negate the educational value of
| the post.
| darkwater wrote:
| So you have to not enjoy the best years of your life and
| spend time and energy keeping track of investments to... get
| bored as hell later because your brain is so used to just
| work and save and nlt enjoying life that you will feel guilty
| spending that money? I want to retire at 55 but I'm really
| skeptical about the FIRE community, especially by the ones in
| their 20's
| cutler wrote:
| Yeah, can't imagine this guy's conversation on a date. Oh,
| wait - having a partner is an additional expense so out of
| the question.
| oblio wrote:
| Having a partner doesn't have to be an expense.
|
| Living expenses tend to grow slower than incomes, as
| incomes go up.
|
| You don't pay 200% rent for 2 people, but for sure you
| can earn 200% with 2 people.
| refurb wrote:
| Huh? My partner was not an expense at all.
| pyrale wrote:
| > Your flip comment seems to belie the fact that he's only
| earned at least a half a million dollars for one year.
|
| I would say $475k is close enough, in all honesty.
|
| > The majority of his NW comes from investment and savings,
| not income.
|
| Sum of (earnings - spent) over the career is $2,611,000. Net
| worth by the end is $2,400,000. In order for investment
| returns to be above savings on income, taxes would have to be
| 42.3% of lifetime earnings, which would be a bit surprising.
| refurb wrote:
| Income tax in CA at that level is 33% per year
| approximately. Even at $150k. So knock 1/3 off earnings and
| subtract expenses, what do you get?
| [deleted]
| pyrale wrote:
| With these numbers, most of the savings come from
| earnings, not investments.
| vjeux wrote:
| Tech stock is taxed at around 50% when you get it and then
| 20% of the upswing. So $475k total comp is more like $250k
| in your bank account in practice.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| If you are going to include the tax rate on the capital
| gains, then you should include the capital gains in the
| amount in your bank account.
|
| You should also hire a CPA or at least spend some time
| reading about strategies to minimize taxes if you are
| paying close to an effective 50% income tax on $500k of
| income.
| vjeux wrote:
| You are right, I should be more precise.
|
| If you earn more than $523,600 and are single, then your
| tax rate is not 50% but 37%, which is still meaningful
| amount that is often not considered when looking at those
| big numbers. https://www.manafld.com/blog/2021/2/26/rsus-
| no-sell-tax
|
| If you are in California, then your employer will not
| give you all your RSU but sell 40% and give you 60%. So
| you don't have a big scary surprise when it's tax season.
| https://blog.myrawealth.com/insights/rsu-tax-rate
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| This doesn't line up with my experience. I have the
| option of having anywhere from 22-37% of my RSUs withheld
| to pay taxes. The IRS only forces you into the 37%
| supplemental withholding rate if you make more than
| $1,000,000/year which alas is a problem I've never had.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| > If you earn more than $523,600 and are single, then
| your tax rate is not 50% but 37%
|
| The federal income tax rate only for income above $523k
| is 37%. Only for income above $523k.
|
| > If you are in California, then your employer will not
| give you all your RSU but sell 40% and give you 60%. So
| you don't have a big scary surprise when it's tax season.
|
| Withholding amounts seem irrelevant when discussing
| effective tax rates.
| erwincoumans wrote:
| federal + income tax + social taxes will be closer to 45%
| in California, at that income level (approx. 30% federal
| tax, 10% state tax, 4% FICA)
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I am getting 42% according to this website:
|
| https://smartasset.com/taxes/income-taxes#gJwOxy2ei7
|
| But that is without 401k/HSA/etc.
| pyrale wrote:
| Is it 37% marginal tax rate or 37% effective?
|
| I calculated 42% effective on lifetime income, and I
| suppose the writer was not taxed at 42% on their 100k
| income from the first years, so the tax rate for later
| years must have been higher.
| BeetleB wrote:
| > If you are in California, then your employer will not
| give you all your RSU but sell 40% and give you 60%.
|
| That is entirely irrelevant. You will get taxed the same
| no matter what they sell and give you. If your tax rate
| should be less than 40% (true for me, and probably most
| people here), you'll get the money back as a refund.
|
| You do miss out on any appreciation, but if you _know_
| your marginal tax rate is < 40% (just look at your
| previous tax returns to figure it out), you can simply
| spend the delta to buy the stocks you should have gotten
| and you'll still get the appreciation (and the cash in
| the tax refund to compensate you for doing this).
| d23 wrote:
| Do you have any resources you can share? My understanding
| is it's pretty difficult to lower your taxes meaningfully
| if all of it comes from wages.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Bogleheads forums or whitecoatinvestor. Even just 401k,
| HSA, 529, and megabackdoor roth should help bring down
| effective tax rate (for the $500k income being
| discussed).
|
| You will not get as low as someone with their own
| business or S corp, but the tax advantaged savings
| account should help.
| mupuff1234 wrote:
| 529 and megabackdoor are post tax so they won't affect
| the tax on the 500k (but are nonetheless useful tax
| planning tools)
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| True, I guess my mental model is to amortizing the total
| taxes over the total income/investment period.
| lbacaj wrote:
| Not to mention, he was also living in expensive areas. It's
| amazing he saved and invested that much.
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| > _The point of the article is that cutting expenses, saving,
| investing wisely, and aggressively pursuing pay raises can
| yield a few million well before retirement age_
|
| Most people will have nowhere near the same results as the
| author by implementing these things.
|
| The biggest factors here are:
|
| 1) Earn a lot of money
|
| 2) Don't spend it all
|
| I don't think this post has much educational value at all
| because I think most people already understand those points,
| they just can't execute on them in a meaningful way.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| I would never make assumptions banking on "most people
| understanding" anything.
| Aeolun wrote:
| Most people _in a position to make 500k per year in their
| thirties_ already understand these things.
| uyt wrote:
| I think people who are graduating now will have a hard time
| replicating this. My cohort (now in our early 30s, cs majors from
| a top school) were incredibly lucky because we were in a
| permanent bull run so as long as we were invested in almost any
| tech stock, we did well. Almost all of us hit one million mark
| before early 2020 and that became 2 million at the end of 2021.
|
| I would love for this to continue forever but can it really? For
| example the author (and my friends) are in similar situation
| where their compensation are now in the ~500k range but that
| number is based on the stock value at the time of offer. It is
| now essentially double that. So we're in a situation where your
| everyday senior FAANG engineers are locked in a golden handcuff
| unless they are offered million dollar packages to jump ship.
|
| We're in weird times.
| uejfiweun wrote:
| There's no question that equity valuations are due for a
| massive collapse, the federal reserve has even admitted this.
| But there are a few things that make me thing that software
| engineer compensation has nowhere to go but up:
|
| - The world is becoming increasingly computerized. The demand
| for software is skyrocketing.
|
| - Software engineering is extremely economically efficient. You
| can produce infinite quantities of a piece of software with no
| marginal cost.
|
| - Outside of the HN / CS bubble, most regular people still
| think coding is either boring, stupid, or too hard.
|
| I really think it would be tough to do this job without some
| major interest in computers that most people simply don't have.
| And you can't really fake this. This puts a cap on the supply
| of engineers.
| yellowfish22 wrote:
| > I would love for this to continue forever but can it really?
|
| well, we've pretty much got the world chained down it's
| essentially unlimited money for us forever
|
| if things go downhill we will still be on top anyway so who
| cares
| xvector wrote:
| Golden handcuffs are a good thing. It's such a first world
| problem to complain about golden handcuffs. "Oh no, I'm making
| $300k/yr over my nominal market value!"
| bradlys wrote:
| The golden handcuffs are only handcuffs if you're in a
| terrible environment. I've walked away from a 7-figure TC.
| Handcuffs be damned. I wasn't going to take the abuse
| anymore.
|
| Some people don't have the strength to walk away and instead
| will obsess over money for anything. It's funny how I'm sure
| people would require much bigger numbers if they were given
| an offering where they'd have to go to a terrible prison for
| 2-3 years in their prime years.
| yholio wrote:
| TLDR he rode the tech bubble, lived frugally and poured his
| savings into what happened to be a very favorable stock decade,
| which together with his tech stock options from employers made
| him a multimillionaire.
|
| Not to disrespect the effort that went into this, but let's make
| this very clear: this type of trajectory is only possible for a
| very limited few, in a particular moment in history.
|
| Everything seems to indicate that, save for a few samurai, the
| tech overlords are a powerful force driving inequality today.
| apples_oranges wrote:
| Tech is not a bubble, software is transforming everything
| (/eating the world).
| astura wrote:
| Software companies can both transform the world and
| simultaneously be an equity bubble.
| seaman1921 wrote:
| PE 28 does not seem like an equity bubble.
| yholio wrote:
| The eating part might be more literal than most expect.
|
| For example, it's hard to argue that software made journalism
| better. Sure, there is some efficiency in using a phone to
| record interviews and sending the results of your work on
| seconds on the other side of the world - as opposed to things
| like notepads and telexes.
|
| On the other hand, Google and Facebook almost completely
| eviscerated the revenue streams that fed traditional
| journalists, without putting anything in it's place.
|
| Instead of a large number of local papers and ad agencies
| earning local revenue and funding journalists, you have a
| massive revenue stream going into Google's offshore tax
| shells, of which a part is used to fund their software
| mercenary army, and the bulk is reimvested into further tech
| monopolies.
|
| The corrupt and the despots surely welcome the tech
| overlords.
| oblio wrote:
| Worse than that, they're taking away money from local
| businesses. Local markets, local stores, local shops, local
| newspapers, local magazines, small businesses, etc.
|
| They're vampires centralizing local revenues worldwide and
| for what?!? That money gets reinvested or offshored so that
| about 100 billionaires live like kings with about 2 million
| millionaire flunkies working for them.
| goodpoint wrote:
| Also you need to be extremely lucky to be born in the right
| country and the right area, have a healthy childhood and access
| to learning, have no physical or psychological illness, have no
| moral qualms with working for those companies, and the list
| goes on.
|
| > this type of trajectory is only possible for a very limited
| few
|
| We are talking 0.1% of human population if not less.
| yunohn wrote:
| > the tech overlords are a powerful force driving inequality
| today.
|
| I would truly disagree; tech is transforming lives across the
| class spectrum, globally.
|
| In fact, what you should be concerned about is how other
| industries think it's acceptable to significantly underpay
| their average employee. And the ironic part is that tech
| companies still pay managers and executives way more than the
| average SWE - at FAANG, often directors make more than their
| entire reporting chain.
| itsthejb wrote:
| I know I shouldn't, but reading about people who successfully
| surfed the tech bubble makes me groan. Because, even though I've
| also done well in Europe, I almost moved to the U.S. twice
| (couldn't get offers), and passed up interviewing at Shopify
| before they exploded
|
| So it's painful thinking that you were very much in the right
| place at the right time, but were just a step or two away from
| the stratosphere... however, it's all relative I guess, those
| with 2 mil envy those with 5 mil
| ThePhysicist wrote:
| To have 1 MM USD/EUR at the end of your thirties given an average
| 4 % yearly return on investment, you need to save around 4.000
| USD/EUR per month starting at age 25. In Europe, if you earn
| around 100k EUR per year your free income will be around
| 5.000-6.000 EUR per month. Saving 4.000 EUR / month is doable
| with that but you'll have to live very frugally, not traveling
| much and you better not start a family unless you have a partner
| who will supplement your income.
|
| And regarding the authors' experience: Yeah, if you happen to be
| employed in the area that ranks in the top 0.05 % quantile for
| engineering salaries worldwide you will easily become wealthy,
| especially if you're lucky enough to be paid in company stock
| during a stock market bubble.
| apples_oranges wrote:
| That's a big if, at least in Germany the pay seems to be capped
| below 100k for software engineers at least.
| dogma1138 wrote:
| And you'll still lose nearly half your income to taxes and
| other deductions.
|
| Basically road to financial independence seems to be get paid
| half a million a year and live in a country with relatively
| low tax rate...
| pftburger wrote:
| Seconded. Earning 600k a year should automatically
| disqualify you from talking about living frugally.
| dogma1138 wrote:
| Yeah I don't get how their outgoings are so low given
| where they must live... rent or buy it simply doesn't fit
| even if they are renting a room and living of cup noodles
| based on rent in the Bay Area some of their outgoings are
| suspiciously low.
|
| So I think getting a house gifted by your parents is also
| a requirement for their path.
| Zababa wrote:
| Not really. An appartment alone is $2000 a month
| according to the post. That's 24% of your income at
| $100k, and not even 4% at $620k. I don't know how much
| people in the US usually spend on rent/housing, but
| anything under 30% of your income seems low to me.
| joshuamorton wrote:
| Their outgoings aren't particularly low. I guess early on
| they were, but that's "living with roommates". Their
| current col is very much in the "rents a two bedroom
| apartment and spends whatever they want on food"
| category, but they probably don't own a car.
|
| My personal expenses are a tad lower than theirs, and I
| rent an apartment in San Francisco that I live in alone.
| CalRobert wrote:
| Not to mention some places (Ireland) kneecap your gains by
| taxing even unrealized gains via a rule called deemed disposal.
| Nevermind 52% income tax that kicks in extremely low.
| mustyoshi wrote:
| Even before the covid bubble the expected return was more like
| 8-10% per year. 22 years of 1500 a month at 8% is over 1M
| xvector wrote:
| I'd say the HN crowd is more likely to be in that top quintile
| than not
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| I'm not sure how true that is.
|
| Poor people tend to hide or downplay their poverty online in
| an environment like this one.
| Kye wrote:
| I remember when I didn't even have $5/day to spend on
| coffee to skip for even one subscription pitched that way.
| jstx1 wrote:
| (this is kind of pedantic)
|
| Maybe HN is more likely to be in that quantile than the
| general population of developers; "more likely than not"
| implies that most people on HN are in that quantile which I
| kind of doubt but I don't have data to support either way.
| k8sToGo wrote:
| Some maybe but definitely not the majority
| mistercow wrote:
| More likely than the general population, sure, but I'm not
| sure about "more likely than not".
| andi999 wrote:
| European countries usually don't pay 100k for 15 year olds,
| also after tax it is (well depending on country) 4.5k in
| Germany. If you live frugally you can save 3k.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| Assuming you meant 25 rather than 15
| andi999 wrote:
| 25 year old, I meant.
| mpfundstein wrote:
| do i read correctly that she earns 600k a year as a software
| developer at Amazon? wtf is she working on?????
| supernova87a wrote:
| Here's 2 questions for the "FIRE" crowd.
|
| 1) To stop working when you hit a certain number seems to me to
| be falling into the faulty logic illustrated in Freakonomics --
| when a taxi driver works every day towards a certain $ figure, he
| suffers on crappy days (keeps on driving to little benefit) when
| fares are just not coming, and cuts off his earnings on great
| days where business is pouring in like crazy. Instead, you should
| call it day early when the business sucks, and ride it when times
| are good.
|
| If you're good at what you do, aren't physically being exhausted
| by your work, and pulling in good money, why wouldn't you keep on
| working and make the most of your time + skills? Did you go
| through all your education and training just to hit a certain
| number and call it quits?
|
| 2) In some ways I don't get the "financially independent" life.
| Sure, you're no longer absolutely needing to have a job. But what
| do you do with the rest of your life? You're just retired at 50?
| With what to challenge / strive for?
|
| Maybe I'm just fortunate in that I don't mind working / find some
| fulfillment from it, and don't have a burning desire to sit
| around with no activities for 5 days a week. Maybe if I were
| smarter about it, I could be some kind of board member or
| something? Is that what people do? What takes the place of work?
| mistercow wrote:
| > But what do you do with the rest of your life?
|
| I spend virtually all of my free time and energy on side
| projects, and my list of side projects grows faster than I can
| take them on. When I retire, I'll have no shortage of things to
| spend my time on.
| kozd wrote:
| 1) If that money isn't going to be needed, why continue to
| accumulate it?
|
| 2) Why would a job be necessary to have something to
| challenge/strive for?
| anm89 wrote:
| It only makes sense if youve got something else you want to do.
| Id venture almost none of the FIRE crowd end up sitting in
| front of a tv eating microwave dinners for 60 years because
| they retired. I mean maybe thats what some people want and more
| power to them but thats not what FIRE is about
| smileysteve wrote:
| > end up sitting in front of a tv eating microwave dinners
| for 60 years because they retired.
|
| For a 21st century kick, we have superfood protein smoothies
| now. They're better for you, have less taste, can be consumed
| on the go, and are better for the environment.
| stocknoob wrote:
| Also, the type of person diligent enough to save a large
| fraction of their income for decade(s) isn't likely to just
| sit around doing nothing. They'll just do what they want.
| alexk307 wrote:
| Still sounds better than sitting in front of an IDE for 60
| years working for someone else's bottom line.
| d_burfoot wrote:
| As someone who is considering the FIRE path, I appreciated your
| point about the taxi driver. I have a list of big projects I
| want to pursue after getting out of the corporate world, but I
| wouldn't recommend FIRE to someone who just wants to be lazy: I
| don't think laziness is good for mental health.
| [deleted]
| mathgladiator wrote:
| So, I'll speak as a recently retired principal engineer from
| big tech.
|
| (1) The number to reach is an inflection point where you can
| pivot and focus on things you don't like about work. For
| example, as much as I like architecting systems, I definitely
| don't like architecting through people which is what the job
| demands. A good question then is why do the climb at all, and
| there is a bit of disease of more in our culture.
|
| (2) Whatever you want! One of the reasons I retired was so that
| I could better balance time with my wife and work on my open
| source project: http://www.adama-lang.org/blog/retirement-
| going-all-in
| vkhn wrote:
| On thought #2, I'm with you. While I'm planning to retire early
| (thanks to software, I will have the money, and not much brain
| power left), I have yet to figure out what the heck I want to
| do, and I won't retire until I figure that out.
|
| I also think the "financially independent" life has a pretty
| wide definition. I don't _need_ a job for an alarmingly long
| time, but couldn 't retire on what I have. It still gives me
| enough freedom to work where I want, when I want - which is
| what proponents of this life talk about.
| zimzam wrote:
| > don't have a burning desire to sit around with no activities
| for 5 days a week.
|
| Who said anything about "no activities"? They said they wanted
| to retire not go to prison.
| stocknoob wrote:
| You're floating on a boat in the ocean. Do you want to be in a
| boat that is sinking, and requires you to bail water every day,
| or one that is naturally buoyant?
|
| "Oh, if you don't have to bail water to keep from drowning
| you'll just sit there in the ocean not doing anything."
|
| No. You can go where you want, without worry.
|
| "But I like bailing water, it gives me purpose, I want to do
| this forever!"
|
| That's nice, I like fixing leaks, just in case.
| supernova87a wrote:
| Interesting, but that's a particular interpretation of work,
| isn't it? That's it's toiling at bailing out a sinking ship?
|
| What if work is like growing a garden and the more you do the
| more you get?
| yulaow wrote:
| I have so many hobbies I could occupy (happily) maybe 10
| lifetimes before getting remotely bored. Why spend the only one
| I have "working" for others?
| _dark_matter_ wrote:
| As a software engineer with two kids and a wife with a more
| stressful job than mine, I have no hobbies anymore. I don't
| even work crazy hours.
| alexk307 wrote:
| Your kids are your hobbies. Don't you want to spend more
| time on them?
| boopboopbadoop wrote:
| No, they're not a hobby. People need happiness both in
| and outside of their family.
| andreilys wrote:
| _2) In some ways I don 't get the "financially independent"
| life. Sure, you're no longer absolutely needing to have a job.
| But what do you do with the rest of your life? You're just
| retired at 50? With what to challenge / strive for?_
|
| FI has never meant "go live on the beach and sip beer", I mean
| it can for some but the majority of folks I talk to have
| interests or career aspirations that are not economically
| viable.
|
| For example, volunteering full time at a non-profit, writing a
| book, community organizing, etc. all this takes time and can be
| difficult to do when you have a full-time FANG job.
| Zababa wrote:
| > Did you go through all your education and training just to
| hit a certain number and call it quits?
|
| Yes, I don't see what's so surprising about that. Most people
| do the same but instead of being an amount of money, it's an
| amount of years, or an amount of money that you will get more
| slowly.
|
| > In some ways I don't get the "financially independent" life.
| Sure, you're no longer absolutely needing to have a job. But
| what do you do with the rest of your life? You're just retired
| at 50? With what to challenge / strive for?
|
| Whatever you want, that's the point. If you want to spend all
| day in your bed, you can. If you want to go very deeply on one
| topic, you can. If you want to surf HN all day you can. If you
| want to give time to charities you can. You can even go back to
| work if you want to!
|
| > Maybe I'm just fortunate in that I don't mind working / find
| some fulfillment from it, and don't have a burning desire to
| sit around with no activities for 5 days a week.
|
| > What takes the place of work?
|
| Your comment seems to asume that working is a natural state and
| that you need an opposite "burning desire" to not want to work.
| I personally don't get much fulfillment from work. It's nice
| and all but I'd rather not do it. In a way it's like washing
| the dishes: sometimes it feels a bit good to do it, and most
| people need to do it, but if I can get a dishwasher, I'd rather
| get one and use one.
| driverdan wrote:
| Those questions reflect your life more than OP's. Is your life
| so meaningless and boring outside work that you'd have nothing
| to do when you retire? If the answer is yes you should
| seriously re-evaluate your approach to life. At least get some
| hobbies!
| KptMarchewa wrote:
| At least those hobbies that I would like seriously do - like
| D&D, in contrast to playing video games - generally require
| other people. I'm not the type of person that gets any
| satisfaction from alone tinkering with shit in the garage as
| that seems to be the hobby of most people talking about
| hating work.
|
| So, what do I gain when I stop working? My friends still will
| work, and I'm just going to have 8 hours in a day when
| there's no one to do fun stuff.
| andreilys wrote:
| Find friends that are also financially independent.
| KptMarchewa wrote:
| And are into D&D? I'm going to have better luck finding
| that half a million job.
| mupuff1234 wrote:
| "financially independent" doesn't necessarily mean you stop
| working, it's just that you have the flexibility to chose what
| to work on and who to work for.
| jcun4128 wrote:
| Yeah for me it's just peace of mind not worrying if I don't
| have a job or how long it takes me to get another one. I too
| strive for the idea of investing a lot/getting percentage
| back. I will always tinker on something.
|
| Also I want to sleep/wake whenever.
|
| Also variations can take lean/fat fire.
| unbanned wrote:
| So... luck then.
| asdadsdad wrote:
| This is very interesting, but should be taken with a grain of
| salt even inside the US. This is likely not to be very
| sustainable for much longer, and it significantly skews the
| perspective of making your "own money" long term. The OP took
| advantage of a couple of cities in a country where tech is hyper-
| valuated at the moment. The solution is not to "move to the US",
| and change your lifestyle chasing abnormal salaries. The US has
| its own problems, and prices are very inflated here in general.
| Salaries are already catching up in the UK, and the tendency is
| that this becomes more common outside the US. Earning 100k pounds
| in the UK is not the same as earning 100k USD.
| debbiedowner wrote:
| When I look at his constantly increasing income I just think I
| would rather spend the money on a super good easy life and other
| people knowing there'll always be more.
|
| I feel like living within your means makes sense both ways. Don't
| obsess materially and go into debt. But also don't obsess about
| the future enough to sacrifice the best possible present for
| yourself.
| syngrog66 wrote:
| step 1. start with a high income with tons of disposable cash
|
| its a variant on the general rule that the best way to become
| rich is to start with rich parents
| asdfasdf34523 wrote:
| How does amazon pay 6 lakhs per annum. Thats way too low.
| cryptica wrote:
| Reserve banks printed trillions of dollars over the past decade;
| this propped up high-exposure corporate stocks including Google
| and Amazon.
|
| At the same time, regular people have had their salaries
| continuously diluted and are now losing jobs by the millions. I
| think it's not good to brag about ones' income when it is based
| on the theft of others'.
| yob28 wrote:
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