[HN Gopher] Desmond Tutu, anti-apartheid icon, dies at 90
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Desmond Tutu, anti-apartheid icon, dies at 90
Author : Santosh83
Score : 345 points
Date : 2021-12-26 08:44 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| dwd wrote:
| Always a voice of reason and compassion. His influence, good
| humour and example will be greatly missed.
| rozab wrote:
| Where I live, a 2:2 university degree is still referred to as a
| 'Desmond' and many people don't even know why.
| jayflux wrote:
| Yeah cockney rhyming slang (UK), if you get a 2:2 degree you've
| got a "Desmond". I'm not surprised people don't know why, when
| I first heard it I had to look it up. I don't think kids grow
| up learning about Desmond Tutu.
| AussieWog93 wrote:
| A damn shame. RIP.
| medapart wrote:
| mft_ wrote:
| (Assuming that you're) comparing current vaccination/related
| approaches to apartheid, seems pretty Godwin-esque...
| avoid3d wrote:
| To compare apartheid to being asked to follow scientifically
| validated an internationally agreed protocols to not spread a
| disease to those around you, geesh.
| SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
| There is a suburb of Cape Town called Bishopscourt. It is high up
| on the hill, near the botanical garden, and filled with
| Anglophone old money, trees and mansions. (1)
|
| It gets it's name of course from the "official residence of the
| Archbishop of Cape Town" (Anglican / Church of England).
|
| It was of course a "whites only" area under Apartheid until 1991
| (2). Black people there could be assumed to be house or garden
| servants.
|
| When Mr Tutu was installed there as the first black Archbishop of
| Cape Town in 1986, he moved in without seeking exemption from
| this law (3). He would put on his jogging outfit and take his
| exercise on the streets there, smiling and waving to neighbours
| as if it was the most normal thing in the world. And in time, it
| was.
|
| That is praxis.
|
| he was one of the best of us, always seeking a way to reach out.
|
| 1) "ranked sixth richest suburb in South Africa"
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishopscourt,_Cape_Town
|
| 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_Areas_Act
|
| 3)
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Tutu#Archbishop_of_Cap...
| yob28 wrote:
| throwaway55421 wrote:
| An inspiration. The best way to challenge insanity is to simply
| ignore it and move forward without consideration.
|
| You can't debate apartheid because it's farcical to begin with.
| The terminology even - exemption - makes our brains feel fuzzy,
| confused. What is this "exemption"? I'll just do my thing,
| thanks.
|
| We could all learn something from this.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > The best way to challenge insanity is to simply ignore it
| and move forward without consideration.
|
| That's a tactic to be used in specific circumstances, such as
| by the Archbishop in a specific, peaceful neighborhood. It's
| for people who are safe.
|
| For a vulnerable person, it can be very dangerous: violating
| norms can end in being arrested or lynched - that's what
| lynchings and oppression are. That is the problem. Civil
| rights tactics such as lunch-counter sit-ins worked because
| they were carefully strategized and organized, and many
| people still got hurt and killed. For example,
|
| https://duckduckgo.com/?q=civil+rights+birmingham+fire+hoses.
| ..
| api wrote:
| "You can't reason someone out of an opinion they didn't
| reason themselves into."
| archsurface wrote:
| That's a bit of a spun story. There was apartheid proper, and
| technically apartheid. By that time, '86, my colonial school
| had black students. Tutu didn't need exemption, and wasn't
| being particularly rebellious.
| SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
| IDK, memory and a check in Wikipedia confirms that things
| were still pretty bad in '86 and '87.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_in_South_Africa it's a
| litany of explosions and killings, and the turnaround may
| have been in the works, but it doesn't surface until December
| '88 when "Nelson Mandela is moved to Victor Verster Prison"
| (from Robben Island)
|
| I don't recall school in integration in '86 near me and yes,
| I would have noticed. If you had that you were lucky.
|
| I wasn't assuming that Mr Tutu was taking any great personal
| risk, but he was driving progress with cheerful good humour.
| archsurface wrote:
| I was not lucky - the following year there were fully
| multi-racial schools, equal numbers.
| fidesomnes wrote:
| throwawaylinux wrote:
| Why would he want to live in a whites-only area and mingle with
| the rich? Not to cast doubt on his character I just don't
| understand how this story demonstrates it adequately.
| [deleted]
| SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
| 1) why would a US president want to live in the White house
| in DC? It doesn't matter what they want, the official
| residence comes with the job. I do not think that Mr Tutu
| spent every single day of his tenure in Bishopscourt - you
| are right, it wasn't his scene. But he was a common sight
| there.
|
| 2) It was literally illegal for Mr Tutu to live there, then.
| Doing so anyway, with the backing of a major church, who
| chose to send him there, was a political act. Which he
| performed with good humour.
| throwawaylinux wrote:
| That is not the case for the US president, they can live
| where they choose.
|
| But I did not realize the archbishop was required to live
| in that residence as part of the terms of their service.
| That answers my question then.
| jayceekay wrote:
| SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
| I don't know exactly what was "required", but I do know
| that the tradition of "going to where the organisation
| sends you" is far stronger in the clergy than it is in
| elected politicians.
| pge wrote:
| much less so in the anglican church (which doesn't really
| send anyone anywhere) than in the catholic church where
| priests are assigned to positions
| ragtagtag wrote:
| "Without seeking exemption from the law" is the key phrase.
| He refused to respect a discriminatory law, and, by living
| there, was effectively daring the Apartheid government to
| arrest a sitting archbishop.
| throwawaylinux wrote:
| I read that, I just don't see why it's key. The worst that
| might have happened is he would have been removed from the
| area by the sounds. Was there even any significant risk of
| that actually happening? Doesn't sound like much of a
| sacrifice to live in an opulent mansion courtesy of the
| church.
|
| I don't blame him for living there I just don't see how it
| was a great act.
| Jcowell wrote:
| It's civil disobedience. I'm not sure of how SA works ,
| but in the U.S civil disobedience was regularly used to
| challenge laws during the 20th century. Going into white
| only areas and living there, forcing de segregation was
| one such technique.
| SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
| Civil disobedience was rife in South Africa in the late
| 1980s. (1) But not usually friendly, and not usually in
| Bishopscourt.
|
| https://www.sahistory.org.za/article/state-emergency-1985
| throwawaylinux wrote:
| I get there was a bit of cheek about it, just on the
| scale of civil disobedience in the country I didn't think
| "living in a big mansion in the richest neighborhood"
| would register much of a blip but maybe I'm wrong.
| TheGigaChad wrote:
| gattilorenz wrote:
| You can dismiss almost anything with that. "I didn't
| think sitting down on the bus would register much of a
| blip."
|
| The fact that we know about it means that it did
| register.
| throwawaylinux wrote:
| That's a non sequitur. I know about lots of things that
| were not civil disobedience.
| vidarh wrote:
| But you don't know about many specific random people with
| no connection to you taking a jog or sitting down on a
| bus because it made enough of an impact on other people
| that they told you about it
| frereubu wrote:
| Clearly he was in a more privileged position than a
| random person from a black township, who would have been
| swiftly packed into the back of a Land Rover and dealt
| with extremely harshly. Even people with public
| prominence weren't exempt, as the case of Steve Biko
| shows. But Tutu _was_ using the little power he had - as
| an official representative of the church - to challenge
| the apartheid laws in an obvious way. There were much
| easier routes he could have taken - challenging the laws
| with words, but living somewhere that wouldn 't provoke
| the police. I don't know you, but I get the feeling you
| don't know quite how vicious the apartheid regime was,
| and the kind of physical risk that this entailed. Because
| no-one had done it before, he didn't really know what
| kind of response he was going to get. "Cheek" doesn't
| really cover it.
| webmobdev wrote:
| Both Nelson Mandela and Tutu were greatly influenced by
| Gandhi. What is less known is that Gandhi's non-violent
| political philosophy germinated in Africa, greatly
| influenced by African culture and politics.
| ragtagtag wrote:
| I think there are two elements at play.
|
| Consider a person of colour living in the eponymous
| mansion of the city's wealthiest neighborhood.
|
| For a racist government, it's a symbol of defiance.
|
| For other people of colour, who have been told by the
| government their whole lives that they are worthless,
| good only for manual labour -- one of their own is living
| in the oldest mansion in the fanciest neighborhood in
| town. It's an affirmation of their worth.
|
| As a symbol, his place of residence had great power.
| SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
| Yes, and doing that in a disarming way, with cheerful
| friendliness, and everyday normality.
| throwaway984393 wrote:
| Always loved this episode of Late Late Show where Craig
| interviewed Archbishop Desmond Tutu. "You know craig, I think
| you're crazy. We need your kind of crazy. _giggles_ "
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12OlAe2Sfes#t=14m
| hbogert wrote:
| bradwood wrote:
| I met him as a schoolboy when he came to give a talk at our
| school. This would've been late 80s. He told the story of the
| "Blaloon" seller and that the red, yellow, blue, "blaloons" all
| had the same stuff inside.
|
| His mispronunciation of "balloons" was endearing and stayed with
| me ever since. Our family would often remark on it with
| affection.
|
| At the demise of apartheid he led the Truth and Reconciliation
| Commission which was such a critical instrument in the peaceful
| dismantling of apartheid.
|
| It's a shame that we don't see more of this approach around the
| world.
|
| RIP.
| dwd wrote:
| He was a warm and humorous individual with an infectious
| chuckle.
|
| I had the privilege to attend a week-long convention where he
| delivered the keynote address each day back in '87. Everyone
| talks about Mandela, but I have always had far more respect for
| Tutu and his role in bringing about the end of aparteid.
| ragtagtag wrote:
| Archbishop Tutu told me, a few years ago, that he had received a
| strange email from someone claiming to be a lawyer from a small
| English parish in which Tutu had been a curate in the 1970s.
|
| The person was asking for Tutu's assistance in transferring the
| fabulous wealth of a deceased Nigerian prince to his widow.
|
| "Ah, a 419 scam," I said.
|
| "A what now?"
|
| I explained what a 419 scam was, and, fearing the worst, asked
| what he had done about it. It turned out that he still had a
| number of friends in that area, and had forwarded it on to a
| friend to investigate.
|
| "Never heard of this lawyer chap," the response came, "DO NOT
| respond!"
|
| So, of course the Archbishop responded.
|
| For a moment, I put myself in the shoes of this "Nigerian
| Prince", getting an email from "Archbishop Desmond Tutu", shaming
| the alleged prince for attempting to scam innocents on the
| internet. I started giggling.
|
| "So what happened next?" I asked.
|
| "Oh, he emailed me back, and tried to sell me something else."
| authed wrote:
| woodruffw wrote:
| ...all of which appear to be benign diplomatic cables or press
| releases. Can you state more explicitly what you're trying to
| imply?
| authed wrote:
| > woodruffw - ...all of which appear to be benign diplomatic
| cables or press releases. Can you state more explicitly what
| you're trying to imply?
|
| Not implying anything? Can you explain why you think that? Do
| you think that about every fact that you are presented?
| woodruffw wrote:
| Perhaps it's overly cynical, but "X name has Y hits on
| Wikileaks" reads to me as an oblique claim of wrongdoing by
| X. Famously, that particular tactic was used during the
| last American presidential election, with the "Y hits"
| including silly things like birthday emails and recipes.
|
| If you just meant "here are some potentially interesting
| documents that have Desmond Tutu's name in them," then it's
| not clear what linking to Wikileaks offers that linking to
| WaPo's, WSJ's, NYT's, or even just Google's search results
| does not. But normally linking to the results of a search
| with no other context would be considered a frivolous thing
| to post, which is again why I assumed that you had some
| other implied statement in mind.
| authed wrote:
| woodruffw wrote:
| Apart from demonstrating that your comment is (nearly) a
| copy-paste of a tweet, what are you attempting to show by
| linking this?
| authed wrote:
| lovecg wrote:
| It would make for a better discussion if you stated plainly
| why you think your link is interesting. Wikileaks is a hot
| button issue in some circles and just giving a link like
| this without context will raise some eyebrows.
| DFHippie wrote:
| You should read this:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relevance_theory
| dan_pixelflow wrote:
| 'If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen
| the side of the oppressor.'
|
| Rest in peace.
| Markoff wrote:
| LarrySellers wrote:
| Vaccines reduce the spread of disease, full stop.
| kennywinker wrote:
| Sober drivers kill people too, not just drunk drivers - yet
| we have no problem prohibiting driving drunk.
|
| But even that analogy breaks down because it's been 1 year of
| vaccine's existing, and in most places much less than 6
| months of vaccine-only rules. This is a health crisis. Nobody
| wants or intends this to be forever. It's like crying
| injustice because of a temporary ban on drunk driving.
| ok_dad wrote:
| Vaccinations decrease the chance you'll take valuable
| hospital space from someone who isn't there for covid. That's
| the real issue. Anyways, maybe you'll eventually get the
| picture and get vaccinated, maybe not, but eventually you
| will be a pariah in the community and I certainly won't be
| there to defend your idea of freedom.
| [deleted]
| jrmg wrote:
| _We know vaccine doesn 't stop you from getting infected, we
| know vaccine doesn't stop you from spreading the virus._
|
| This is absolutist nonsense. It takes the truth and makes it
| imply something false.
|
| Vaccines make you less likely to become infected, and
| decrease viral load if you do get infected. So, even if you
| do become infected, the infection is milder and you are less
| likely to pass it on. In all these ways, (less likely to
| catch, milder infection, less likely to transmit) they
| provide protection to you _and those around you_.
| wesleywt wrote:
| You should get vaccinated and stop thinking you know better
| than people who are better tha you.
| Jiro wrote:
| Remember that aphorisms like that don't only apply to your
| side.
|
| Every time you say something like that, imagine that someone
| whose sense of injustice is opposite to yours is using it.
| Maybe they think that abortion is literal murder. Maybe it's
| the 1950s and they think some poor black guy has raped a white
| girl (because how would she ever consent?) Maybe they're a
| Russian living in Ukraine and they think the Ukrainian
| government is oppressing the Russians and the only way to stop
| this is by helping Russian troops take over.
|
| I want people to say "No, I do not have to bomb that abortion
| clinic. No, I do not have to join that lynch mob. No, I do not
| have to overthrow the government." If you are neutral in
| situations of injustice, you haven't _chosen the side of the
| oppressor_. Rather, if you 're neutral in situations of
| injustice, it means that you have figured out that humility can
| be a virtue.
| x86_64Ubuntu wrote:
| >..Rather, if you're neutral in situations of injustice, it
| means that you have figured out that humility can be a
| virtue.
|
| I'm not sure I understand how humility comes into the
| picture? I don't think anyone didn't join a lynch mob, yet
| allowed them to continue on their way to the victim and
| thought of themselves as humble.
| ttiurani wrote:
| The quote continues:
|
| "If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse, and you
| say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your
| neutrality."
|
| The moral obligation Tutu captured with that aphorism has
| affected me immensely over the years.
|
| Also:
|
| "All of our humanity is dependent upon recognizing the humanity
| of others."
| yob28 wrote:
| iancmceachern wrote:
| My favorite tid bit from his book, the book of joy about his and
| the Dalai Lama, I paraphrase.
|
| A man met with Mr. Tutu and asked him to pray for the man's son,
| who was gravely ill and in need of medical treatment. The boy got
| the treatment he needed and became healthy again. Years later,
| the same boy fell ill again and the boys father once again asked
| the archbishop to pray for him. Mr. Tutu replied to the boys
| father "I never stopped (praying for your son). He had such deep,
| meaningful compassion for all his fellow humans. Just reading his
| writings made a significant meaningful positive impact on my life
| and well being. Thank you Mr. Tutu.
| secfirstmd wrote:
| There's a certain irony that many people who celebrate the life
| of Desmond Tutu and his fight against apartheid continue to
| ignore that he said Israel does the same thing and should be
| subject to boycott.
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/apr/29/comment
| chernevik wrote:
| pastrybanking wrote:
| Desmond Tutu was critical of Israeli government policy in the
| treatment of Palestinian people and even earlier when Israel
| maintained friendly relations with the apartheid regime in
| South Africa. This is also the same man who criticised Arab
| nations for refusing to recognise Israel as a sovereign state,
| sympathised with the historical atrocities committed against
| Jewish people and condemned violence from both parties in the
| Israeli-Palestinian conflicts.
|
| There is no irony in celebrating the life of a man who
| universally condemned oppression and called for a peaceful
| resolution to one of the most complex conflicts of modern
| times.
| dagaci wrote:
| I dont think anyone is ignoring it, its a Heated topic and
| actually quite an issue in South African politics now
| (https://english.alaraby.co.uk/news/protests-greet-miss-
| south...) Wikipedia has a page where the general issues are
| enumerated https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_aparthe
| id_analo....
|
| Historically scrutiny originally fueled because Israel is seen
| as a supporter of the apartheid system even after all other
| western countries had withdrawn support
| https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-why-israel-supporte...
| vidarh wrote:
| It's still ignored by a lot of people who do not hesitate to
| argue apartheid is bad, yet can't stomach the comparison.
| Tutu's willingness to call Israeli government policy
| apartheid, alongside other prominent apartheid fighters, like
| e.g. Arthur Goldreich, matters greatly in legitimising
| resistence against those policies. Even so every new person
| or organisation deciding to come out and saying this is still
| met with fierce resistance.
| dagaci wrote:
| Desmond Tutu views were incredibly consistant and
| technical, rather than emotional. Policy of Israel is
| driven by the need to maintain a Jewish majority franchise,
| should not need to explain why, however the simple
| demographics of the Arabs would quickly create Arab
| majority in Israel if Israel were to acknowlege soverentiy
| over the occupied territories or even permit the return of
| refugees.
|
| An outcome like the above is of course clearly completely
| unacceptble, locally and in the west.
|
| However Israel cannot allow even those territories to
| become independant because that would require giving up
| security control, control over valuable land and other
| natural resources like water. No nation gives away its
| territory easily!
|
| So current status quo with the territories must be
| maintained!
| inwardsword wrote:
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| _There comes a point where we need to stop just pulling people
| out of the river. We need to go upstream and find out why they
| 're falling in._
|
| -- Desmond Tutu
|
| May he rest in peace.
| thehonest wrote:
| mft_ wrote:
| Can you expand more - on the 'reversed racism' aspect? I've
| spent a good amount of time in CT with long-time white locals,
| and this isn't something I experienced or sensed.
| avoid3d wrote:
| I disagree with this comment. I don't want to start a debate,
| just to give my experience and perspective.
|
| I am a South African, I am white, just for transparency.
|
| In my experience:
|
| White people are still in a position of economic and social
| power such that the (unjust) assumptions made by an average
| person during apartheid are still mostly the same.
|
| White people are stereotypically more educated, have more
| money, connections and are more trustworthy etc.
|
| To say that white people are the subject of reverse racism
| while making any comparison to apartheid, where people where
| abducted, tortured, disappeared, forcefully relocated and
| removed from their land, is simply ignorant.
|
| I make this post not to try and change your mind, but simply to
| give some representation to an alternate view point.
| VictorPath wrote:
| What is an "imbicile"?
| dynamite-ready wrote:
| I can't recall many people braver than him, dead or alive.
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