[HN Gopher] "Autism is a spectrum" doesn't mean what you think (...
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"Autism is a spectrum" doesn't mean what you think (2019)
Author : stared
Score : 201 points
Date : 2021-12-25 12:56 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (neuroclastic.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (neuroclastic.com)
| stared wrote:
| OP here, autistic, not the author.
|
| I like how this post fights with "scalar fallacy"
| (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8132525,
| http://observationalepidemiology.blogspot.com/2011/01/scalar...),
| prevalent in popular psychology.
|
| My small nitpicks:
|
| 1. IMHO, the gradient (from "a bit autistic" to "highly
| autistic") makes sense - as long as we treat it as the first
| principal component of a multidimensional process. I know many
| people who learned that they are autistic in their 30s, as on ALL
| axes, their symptoms were relatively mild (especially women, who
| are vastly underdiagnosed). After realizing they are autistic,
| they often cried, explaining decades of their life and why they
| always felt different.
|
| 2. While I understand where "Don't assume anything about an
| autistic person." comes from, I disagree. If we take it
| literally, the word "autistic" makes no sense (as it is not
| related to anything). Sure, stereotypes are both inaccurate and
| harmful + there is great neurodiversity among autistic people -
| "If you've met one individual with autism, you've met one
| individual with autism". The best antidote is Bayesian thinking -
| having reasonably wide priors and modifying the posterior with
| each measurement.
| lowdose wrote:
| I still don't get why Asperger is seen as a subgroup of Autism.
| drewcoo wrote:
| As opposed to Asperger seen as a Nazi war criminal?
|
| https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-truth-
| about-h...
|
| That label seriously offends some people.
| stared wrote:
| It's not.
|
| Now it is not considered neither a separate unit nor a subset
| of autism. (As there is no meaningful distinction between
| Asperger Syndrome and Autism without cognitive impairment.)
| denton-scratch wrote:
| I didn't understand that - "not a separate unit". What is
| the relation between Asperger's and Autism?
| emodendroket wrote:
| Asperger's has been eliminated as a diagnosis altogether.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| Thanks.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| Because when Asperger defined "autistic psychopathy" under
| the Nazi regime, there was a range between the "good" kind
| whose "special abilities" were sufficient in relation to
| their social deficiencies to be valuable to society and the
| "bad" kind where they weren't; the former were protected for
| their usefulness and the latter murdered ("euthanized",
| officially), often at Asperger's personal direction and
| entirely based on the social dangers he warned about from
| them, by the Nazis. So until quite recently, "Asperger's
| Syndrome" persisted as the name for "good" autism.
| emodendroket wrote:
| All true, but there were actual diagnostic criteria that
| could be used to differentiate the subgroup from the larger
| one.
| swayvil wrote:
| I suspect that autism is a special shape of attention (and by
| attention I mean what you direct when you pay attention, that
| which gets jerked around when you are distracted and what you
| concentrate when you concentrate).
|
| Call it "habitually concentrated".
|
| We study that kind of stuff in the meditation scene.
| Khelavaster wrote:
| Someone wearing red is absolutely "a little" on the rainbow
| spectrum compared to wearing brown, white, silver, or black...
| emodendroket wrote:
| I would say this is because the experience of someone with "high-
| functioning," or whatever euphemism we prefer now, autism is
| utterly different than that of someone with nonverbal autism
| (which is often comorbid with profound mental retardation). So
| different that they may as well be different conditions. It is
| pretty natural for laypeople to come to the understanding
| lamented here, that it goes from "a little" to "a lot," if
| they're told that people who present this differently are both
| autistic.
|
| In fact I think many autistic community disputes are people
| talking past each other because of this difference. I guess they
| must have had a good reason, but eliminating them Asperger's
| diagnosis would seem to me to just exacerbate the problem.
| mpyne wrote:
| > I would say this is because the experience of someone with
| "high-functioning," or whatever euphemism we prefer now, autism
| is utterly different than that of someone with nonverbal autism
| (which is often comorbid with profound mental retardation). So
| different that they may as well be different conditions.
|
| I've definitely seen this as a challenge in describing two of
| my boys, who both have autism that additionally presents with
| being nearly non-verbal.
|
| You say to someone that they have autism, and in their mind
| they're thinking 'oh, like Sheldon'. But it's as you say, it's
| not nearly the same. Sheldon is closer to NT than he is to my
| boys.
| arendtio wrote:
| I am not a physicist, but I am wondering if light is a good
| example to explain a spectrum.
|
| My primary concern is, that light indeed has a primary order
| (wave length) and composition of wave lengths isn't being talked
| about here.
|
| While thinking about an alternative example, I came across sound.
| Frequency also plays a role, but here the composition of
| different frequencies is important to create melodies. The
| presents of different frequencies could be the equivalent of a
| factor being strong or weak.
|
| What do you think, do you have other ideas/examples/thoughts?
| kstenerud wrote:
| Another shitty development is how "mild" autism has become a
| trendy status symbol. Psychiatrists are now inundated with so
| many diagnosis requests from neurotypicals that actually autistic
| people such as my wife and I cannot get the official diagnoses we
| need for government programs, NGO memberships, school and
| workplace accommodations, etc. There are now literally years-long
| waits to even get an appointment! Autistic people now have to add
| the preface "actually autistic" to hopefully get some
| understanding.
| Khelavaster wrote:
| It's the government's fault for refusing to expand licensing
| enough that there's a reasonable supply of doctors for even
| intake apointments.
| phil21 wrote:
| I don't know how anyone could see mild autism as a status
| symbol?
|
| I have no idea what I am, but I know I'm not "normal" - at
| least as normal as most in America. I definitely think
| different and require a strong filter to function in normal
| society. Things like schedules and meetings overwhelm me
| mentally, or at least are the most tiresome stuff I do where to
| others they are trivial.
|
| I also simply cannot push through "busy work" tasks even if I
| see immense payout in the end. I dropped out of high school
| without a plan simply because it was such a mental torture to
| sit through useless classes every day I could trivially test
| out of.
|
| But, when I get an idea or project or goal in my head I am
| utterly relentless to a level I don't see in many others.
|
| When I was younger I could kind of patch through this and find
| professional paths that worked alright with my quirks. Now that
| I'm older and have a family and "real" career with 7am alarm
| clocks/etc. I find life to be fairly unbearable from a mental
| aspect.
|
| I'd really like to know what causes this in me. I've always
| been this way, to my extreme detriment, when I was younger I
| would cry myself to sleep just wanting to be "normal". Is it
| mild autism? ADHD? PTSD from childhood trauma? I dunno, but
| it's both relationship and career impacting and having to build
| your life around it sucks - knowing what your dealing with
| sounds amazing to me.
|
| I just can't imagine wishing putting life on "hard mode" like
| this is on anyone, or anyone wanting to live it...
| mattgreenrocks wrote:
| Sounds like ADHD to me, FWIW!
|
| Hope you find some tools and understanding in the coming
| year.
| hosh wrote:
| I was hanging out with some friends. One of them, is not
| neurotypical; she says her family were farmers. In that way
| of life, it doesn't make demanda on executive functioning
| like modern life does.
|
| The other side too: there are plenty of thinkers and critics
| of modernity to make a case that the modern way of life is
| not really that healthy for neurotypical people -- or more
| precisely, people with good, or great executive functioning,
| even if they are rewarded the most by modern society.
|
| I argue that, the hard mode is not necessarily your neural
| wiring, but that our civilization and way of life is terribly
| skewed.
| emodendroket wrote:
| Well, maybe that's what's happening. Or maybe a lot more people
| have realized they're likely autistic than in the past. Getting
| a diagnosis seems like a lot of trouble to be "trendy."
| stathibus wrote:
| The people trying to be trendy are not the people seeking
| medical diagnoses in my anecdotal experience, but the
| fetishization of mental disorders on the internet as social
| media profile badges among young people is not helping
| anything.
| emodendroket wrote:
| Sure. Probably not. But I think anyone who's booking an
| appointment with a doctor at least have some basis for
| believing they might meet the diagnostic criteria.
| schleck8 wrote:
| In a lot of cases on Tiktok they turn it into a quirky
| "twitching" and saying cute things. You barely see anyone
| where it doesn't come across adorably. Most of them are
| faking it for attention.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > actually autistic people such as my wife and I cannot get the
| official diagnoses
|
| If you don't have an official diagnosis, on what basis do you
| claim to be any more "actually autistic" than the other
| undiagnosed people that see themselves that way and are seeking
| an official diagnosis?
| kstenerud wrote:
| Because I had a diagnosis in another country a decade ago.
| zepto wrote:
| That explains how you know about yourself, but it doesn't
| explain how you know that the others seeking diagnosis are
| not autistic.
|
| It seems like a bad idea to stigmatize people for seeking
| diagnosis.
|
| There are plenty of stories of actually autistic people who
| don't get diagnosed until much later _because the people
| around them dismissed it or didn't support them_ because
| their difficulties were not so visible.
| kstenerud wrote:
| Yeah, I'm one of them. But this is a real problem that
| psychiatrists themselves complain about. Many have even
| stopped doing autism diagnoses due to the sheer number of
| people who come in over some simple behavioral tick and
| demand their autism badge.
|
| Until you experience it yourself, you can't understand
| just how frustrating and demeaning it is.
| nfkrk8j wrote:
| zepto wrote:
| It does makes sense, sadly.
|
| I'm surprised people are seeking diagnosis just to have
| the label. What actual benefits are they getting?
| d0gsg0w00f wrote:
| An excuse to not have to live up to standard societal
| "norms". An explanation for why life seems hard.
| tartoran wrote:
| Life is indeed harder for some exactly for the reason
| that societal norms are being imposed on them. Think
| corporations and the norms they impose on all the
| industries. I personally work hard to mask my differences
| but it does take a lot more effort on my part. All these
| efforts could have been used to be more productive and
| efficient.
| zepto wrote:
| Why should people need an excuse not to live up
| 'standard' societal norms?
|
| In any case someone can be wrong about having autism, but
| not wrong that they have a particular challenge that
| others do not.
| [deleted]
| lookalike74 wrote:
| Self-satisfaction that they are complicated people who
| are 'working on themselves' because our medical system
| affords it. It's now commonplace to hear people say
| things like "It's my OCD acting up" when they don't have
| obsessive compulsive disorder. And where does that go?
| Think of the huge numbers of people who take ADD or ADHD
| meds for 'neuro enhancement' while the larger swaths of
| people who truly need treatment for those can't afford
| it.
| dexterdog wrote:
| Would a lesser demand for those meds make them cheaper? I
| would think it would be the opposite. Many of those meds
| are available as generics as well.
| intricatedetail wrote:
| Isn't what he says actually proving he is on the
| spectrum? The thought process sounds familiar.
| csdreamer7 wrote:
| > because the people around them dismissed it or didn't
| support them because their difficulties were not so
| visible.
|
| Not to downplay any difficulties you or someone else may
| have had, but a counter to this I am seeing some people
| claim on twitter that they should just be able to state
| their diagnosis without getting one and want
| accommodations for it because of poverty or family would
| look down on it.
|
| This is very dangerous. People just assume they see a
| characterization on TV and assume they have that.
| Symptoms can be shared between different classes of
| syndromes. ADHD and High Functioning Autism both can
| share, on the surface, similar sensory processing issues,
| anxiety, and obsessive thinking in my experience; but I
| imagine the therapy and day to day accommodations that
| one with ADHD needs is much different that one with
| Autism (honestly I barely remember the therapy I got in
| school and I am hoping more people can chime on this).
| zepto wrote:
| > Not to downplay any difficulties you or someone else
| may have had, but a counter to this I am seeing some
| people claim on twitter that they should just be able to
| state their diagnosis without getting one
|
| How is this in any way related to the comment you are
| replying to? It seems like you misunderstood.
| caddemon wrote:
| Sure, but seeking diagnosis from a trained professional
| should mean that the differences between those cases will
| be detected. I acknowledge that IRL it is a messy field
| and there is high variance in quality of practitioner.
| But seeking help shouldn't be discouraged. It should be
| up to the professionals to determine if someone actually
| has "Autism" or "something else" (or nothing). And also
| to do some amount of triaging! Criticism of the process
| shouldn't generally be targeted at individuals seeking
| help.
| emodendroket wrote:
| Well... isn't this part of it? A lot of people are more
| or less satisfied with the coping mechanisms they've
| established and don't really need to get a diagnosis
| because they don't want further treatment. And I don't
| think this is unreasonable, especially when treatment
| mostly takes the form of helping you establish coping
| mechanisms.
| globular-toast wrote:
| This happened with gluten intolerance although seems to have
| had the positive effect of raising the profile of actual gluten
| intolerance (like coeliac disease) and vastly increased the
| availability of gluten free products. I wonder if there could
| be a similar upside for people with "actual autism".
| thathndude wrote:
| I think we are seeing that effect with regards to mental
| health and autism. It seems to me that there is at least a
| greater understanding. Growing up, I was likely right on the
| bubble of being diagnosed. Unfortunately, instead I was just
| labeled a bad kid.
|
| Now I have a child with an official diagnosis, and I see a
| lot of the traits from my childhood, and things that I
| struggled with and her, just magnified.
|
| I think if I were to go through the school system now,
| someone probably would have at least suggested that I get
| tested. Rather than berating me day after day and labeling me
| a bad kid
| 0xcde4c3db wrote:
| The gluten intolerance thing is complicated by FODMAPs
| (certain carbs that tend to ferment in the gut and to which
| some people are especially sensitive for reasons that are
| poorly understood). In practice, a gluten-free diet is often
| also a low-FODMAP diet, but companies don't label their food
| as "low-FODMAP", so people might make the switch, get actual
| relief from actual symptoms, and assume that gluten was the
| issue because they've never even heard of FODMAP sensitivity.
|
| In my experience, the biggest issue with autism isn't so much
| raw awareness or availability, but that almost none of the
| "autism industry" caters to autistic people themselves. I
| sometimes end up excluding phrases like "your child", "the
| child", "the student", "my son", "my daughter" etc. from
| searches for information about autism because there's just
| _so much_ stuff that 's laser-focused on the concerns of
| presumed-neurotypical people _around_ an autistic person.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| Yeah, I used to laugh at the gluten intolerance epidemic.
| Then as an experiment I cut it from my diet. I was not at all
| intolerant, I just wanted to try it.
|
| I could not believe the difference. For example, I never
| realized that some foods made me tired. Now when I eat breads
| or pastas, I notice i am tired afterwards (not immediately
| but after a time).
|
| Very strange.
| zepto wrote:
| There are different kinds of intolerance. Some people have
| mild allergies to gluten, which is very different from
| celiac disease.
| 88913527 wrote:
| A heavy portion of carbohydrates will raise and lower your
| blood sugar levels. The crash is the tiredness. I would
| nearly fall asleep at my desk after lunch if I had pasta,
| and it took some time to make the connection.
| watwut wrote:
| It does not do that for me. As in, I don't get tired
| after eating them.
|
| So I think, it is quite likely that it does affect other
| people differently. And it makes sense for them to cut
| that stuff out while I don't have to.
| mementomorti wrote:
| Supposedly carbohydrates are a precursor to serotonin, so
| getting sleepy from carbs could be expected. The
| neuroscientist Andrew Huberman talks about this in his
| podcast, eating low carb during the day can maintain
| alertness, while eating carbs at night are useful to
| prepare for sleep.
| leephillips wrote:
| Why do you think this has anything to do with gluten? Is
| there perhaps another substance in bread and pasta that is
| known to contribute to sleepiness after eating?
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| Good point. I don't really know if it is gluten. I hadn't
| thought of that!
| jl2718 wrote:
| Interesting, but I think it has gone the other direction. It
| seems to me that the autism diagnosis has been unilaterally
| bad for rational people, and something like a green light for
| exploitation by emotional people. I hear people calling
| others autistic all the time to diminish their rational
| points in an argument.
| watwut wrote:
| Autistic people are not more "rational" in the sense of
| having better arguments.
| jl2718 wrote:
| That wasn't my implication. I was saying that the term is
| being abused rather than just over-used as in celiac.
|
| I don't claim to know what 'autistic' is, and I've never
| heard a clear definition.
| smoldesu wrote:
| I really feel for you. My ex-boyfriend had Asperger's and was
| similarly had issues applying for programs and getting regular
| specialized medical/therapy visits because of how
| sensationalized "neuroatypicality" had become. My heart sinks
| whenever I read another article about how TikTok users decided
| that nervous tics are not only popular, but deserve to be
| imitated _and even diagnosed_ to feel legitimacy. I know
| "social media bad" is a played-out theme these days, but it
| really makes my blood boil imagining all the personal
| development these people are missing out on by trying to
| roleplay as a less-fortunate individual and record it for
| online clout.
| pessimizer wrote:
| As individuals, they're probably not intentionally doing
| this. Autism has just expanded to being so vague that people
| think it may actually be the reason they're not happy, or the
| reason they're secretly special. Walking into an autistic
| identity by imitating people whom you know as autistic could
| subjectively feel like dropping the pretenses of being normal
| and expressing your true autistic self.
| kstenerud wrote:
| An autism diagnosis is actually not vague; it's only the
| public perception of autism that is vague.
|
| And I really would be quite happy with that if it weren't
| for the fact that it's become popular and draws a ton of
| unwanted attention now.
| stared wrote:
| I don't think that "autistic" is more of a "status symbol"
| than, say, "gay".
|
| And yes, it is wonderful that finally, autistic people get
| their voice, their agency and are (sometimes) getting treated
| as equals (even if different). Sadly, in some places,
| "autistic" is still being used as an insult, usually based on a
| harmful stereotype that autism is in any way related to the
| lack of empathy.
|
| I love that the world changes to at least consider autism as a
| neurodivergence, even if not act upon that. Decades ago, it
| wasn't the same. Being traumatized by noise level was my
| problem, and even when I was in primary school, begging to let
| me go to some more quiet place, I was not allowed. Other kids
| were OK with the noise level, so why do I have a problem?
|
| If a person needs some accommodation (say, reducing volume in
| their workplace), it shouldn't matter if they are "truly
| autistic" or "non-autistic, but highly oversensitive to noise".
| And converse - if someone declares themself "mildly autistic"
| but does not require special accommodations, they won't take
| precious resources from you.
|
| I wish you success with getting the necessary accommodations!
| aspaceman wrote:
| Probably will lose an account over this, but...
|
| > I don't think that "autistic" is more of a "status symbol"
| than, say, "gay".
|
| Uh..aren't they both pretty big status symbols? Gay, queer,
| disability, "this is indigenous land". If I work as a
| disability officer, it's probably somewhat important my email
| byline has a disability (or two, of three).
|
| "I have to prove my status" (as someone who is a disability
| officer) and "this person is a disability officer, they dont
| even have a disability or their pronouns in the signature?!".
| [deleted]
| sircastor wrote:
| I appreciate the frustration, but doesn't this mean that there
| is a larger percentage of people trying to get help for mental
| illness that otherwise would not be? Sure trying to get
| diagnosed with something because it's trendy is ridiculous, but
| it also means these people are talking to a professional and
| may uncover other mental health concerns
| kstenerud wrote:
| No, it means there's a deluge of status seekers deceiving
| themselves into thinking they're autistic and then clogging
| up the system with their diagnosis requests. As I mentioned
| in a sister comment, many psychiatrists who have autism
| knowledge and training have stopped doing diagnoses because
| of this, thus exacerbating the problem.
| emodendroket wrote:
| I have trouble understanding what status seeking ends would
| be served by getting a diagnosis.
| Zircom wrote:
| You get to put it in your social media bio. That's all a
| lot of them want. They don't want treatment, they don't
| want to get better, they just wanna be able to tell
| people they have it. It's a whole thing on Til Tok right
| now.
| emodendroket wrote:
| Why do you need to waste your time and money when typing
| "#actuallyautistic" into the box is free?
| iab wrote:
| What status is conferred by having autism?
| kstenerud wrote:
| No clue, but it's a thing.
| mc32 wrote:
| People crave attention. Some people and kids do what they need
| to do to get attention. Look at the kids of Hollywood actors
| and how their afflictions affect their behavior.
|
| That's not to dismiss people who actually suffer from actual
| differences, but some of it is the same old "rebellion" in
| different clothing.
| zepto wrote:
| Ironically many autistic people seek to avoid or moderate
| attention rather than _craving_ it.
| ReactiveJelly wrote:
| I wonder if craving attention is like being lazy.
|
| I won't say I have ADHD, but I am very lazy. For my entire
| life, I've found myself unable to just snap out of laziness
| and choose to stop being lazy. I don't believe that I'm
| selfishly lazy, because my laziness often causes obvious,
| preventable problems for me, and I still can't find the
| switch inside myself to turn it off.
|
| I wish we could set aside the labels and say "I'm lazy and I
| want to buy therapy to help me deal with being lazy." Maybe
| there is also a reason people are not getting their need for
| attention satisfied in whatever way they're supposed to.
|
| I satisfy my need for attention by being good at programming,
| and then talking to other programmers about programming. I
| notice most people (general population) don't have any
| particular skill worth showing off like I do. I don't know
| what the actionable to fix that is, though.
| 999900000999 wrote:
| I'd take it a step further.
|
| Instead of forcing people to fabricate various illnesses to
| get performance enhancing medications, just make it over
| the counter.
|
| Antidepressants, over the counter.
|
| ADHD drugs, over the counter.
|
| Anti-anxiety drugs, over the counter.
|
| As long as you're at least 21, you should have the right to
| ingest whatever you want.
|
| I personally wouldn't recreationally take any of the above,
| but I think everyone has a right to make their own choices.
|
| In America there's a billion dollar industry in convincing
| everyone their broken. As far as I'm concerned I'm the best
| me I can be and that's it.
| guerrilla wrote:
| The two of you sound like you're being dismissive of
| mental illnesses that cause immense suffering and are
| accusing people of just seeking attention or performance
| enhancing drugs. That's pretty fucked up.
| pxc wrote:
| I have ADHD and mostly agree with GP's proposal.
|
| ADHD medications don't really restore anyone to 'normal'.
| They're a compensatory measure ('performance enhancer')
| which is reserved only for some people mainly for bad
| reasons (the war on drugs, lack of public and accessible
| infrastructure for addiction treatment). They can be used
| to help people with certain deficits meet certain demands
| (typically productivity in work or school), but it's not
| like they counteract ADHD. They help with some aspects of
| the disorder (difficulty sustaining attention) and make
| other aspects of the disorder (difficulty being
| deliberate and judicious about when to switch tasks)
| worse.
|
| Gating them heavily behind many appointments and
| preventing pharmacies from providing any refills makes
| stimulant medications harder to access for people who
| have ADHD, especially during bad times when it's
| relatively poorly managed, which forms a vicious cycle.
| (ADHDers sometimes refer to the total fees associated
| with missed and late appointments and other such mishaps
| as 'the ADHD tax', and it's not unusual for that sum to
| exceed what an ADHD patient actually pays in copays,
| especially when they're first trying to get things under
| control.)
|
| Expanding public access both to stimulant medication and
| to addiction treatment could, imo, help more people live
| better lives (including both ADHD patients and people who
| don't have ADHD) and allow treatment of ADHD to focus
| more on people who actually have ADHD , and on all of the
| management aspects of living with ADHD (which are much
| harder and collectively at _least_ as important as
| medication).
|
| (At the same time, under the policies the GP described, I
| would continue to consult with a psychiatrist, because
| adjusting psychoactive medications without professional
| assistance is a stupid thing to do.)
| 999900000999 wrote:
| I'm not trying to be dismissive.
|
| Their are tons of people who really do need medication.
|
| Their are others who shop doctors to get the meds they
| want.
|
| For example, it's common for kids struggling in college
| to get an ADHD diagnosis so they can study for longer
| hours. As far as I'm concerned as long as your adult,
| ingest whatever you want. But I don't think being unable
| to study Chem for 12 hours a day is an illness.
|
| Why stop adults from doing what they want.
|
| No one stops you from rock climbing, even though that's
| also dangerous.
| faeriechangling wrote:
| You miss two of the biggest points of formal diagnosis.
| Legal rights to accommodation (IEP, workplace) and
| getting insurance/healthcare money. If an autistic person
| can't hold down a job or even live independently only
| really being diagnosed offically will get them the
| support they need. I've had to ask for accommodation to
| have noise cancelling headphones in a certain workspace
| where I was unable to really focus and having my demands
| backed by legislation and a diagnosis made it much easier
| to demand that.
|
| On the point of medication though I largely agree, the
| current system is insanely paternalistic. Like having
| patients be forced to follow up with doctors about
| medications they've been on for 5 years. However society
| doesn't truly want to deal with the true costs of freedom
| like somebody being able to easily legally acquire a
| lethal dose of anxiety meds.
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| Nicotine is a very effective ADHD med, and it's available
| over the counter. (No, I don't mean in tobacco.)
|
| I have inattentive ADHD and Aspergers, and wearing part
| of a nicotine patch for half the day really helps with
| focus issues. (Any longer and I don't sleep well,
| though.) I also take l-tyrosine and Avmacol, and drink
| tea.
|
| Since I started this regimen, my work performance went up
| significantly and I got a promotion to a position I'd
| been wanting for nearly a decade. My wife is also a bit
| less upset with me and I feel subjectively more able to
| think ahead and plan.
| phil21 wrote:
| I'm pretty libertarian on most political charts, but
| offering benzos to people OTC seems like one of the last
| things I'd be trying to legalize.
|
| If we had no drug enforcement whatsoever, sure. But as
| long as we do benzos may be one of the most dangerous
| forms of substances we have short of straight up opiods.
| darepublic wrote:
| Ok sure but the notion that you are the best you you can
| be is also originating in America too
| schleck8 wrote:
| I don't even know how to respond to this.
|
| Do you think someone with depressive tendencies should be
| able to overdose?
|
| Please look up some of the package inserts. This isn't
| some globuli smartie medecine you are talking about. It's
| only legally available because the suffering caused by
| social isolation is less bearable than some of the side
| effects.
|
| You can be happy if you only get malnutrition from them,
| if you are unlucky you'll end up with chronic diseases or
| cancer
| [deleted]
| drdec wrote:
| > I wish we could set aside the labels and say "I'm lazy
| and I want to buy therapy to help me deal with being lazy."
|
| You can absolutely go to a therapist and say exactly that.
| You won't be turned away. Generally therapists are more
| interested in helping people versus labeling people.
| Tijdreiziger wrote:
| Are you sure it's not executive dysfunction, which can be a
| symptom of ADHD and/or autism? Your first paragraph sounds
| exactly how I'd describe myself before getting diagnosed
| with autism.
| nerdponx wrote:
| It's more than just "attention", it's about feeling
| individually special.
| jl2718 wrote:
| Perhaps that is a bigger need that ought to be addressed
| separately instead of mixing it in with the mental health
| industry.
|
| This may be the domain of the matchmaking industry, which
| basically exists to keep people feeling alienated.
| thathndude wrote:
| This is sadly all too common in the disabled community in
| general.
|
| I am not ignorant. I understand that many, perhaps the
| majority, of disabilities that exist in the United States are
| of the "invisible" kind.
|
| However, the number of individuals who want to elevate their
| very common, and human, difficulties in life, to a
| "disability" is ridiculous. If I had to diagnose most of
| these people, I would call them narcissists.
| watwut wrote:
| You are fighting trend of making up diagnosis by making up
| diagnosis based on single assumed data point?
| SamoyedFurFluff wrote:
| Funny because narcissism can be debilitating. Narcissistic
| personality disorder completely ruins a persons ability to
| have even just one healthy human interaction or
| relationship.
| jl2718 wrote:
| Actually that's interesting because logically it implies
| that anybody seeking diagnosis is in fact impaired.
| SamoyedFurFluff wrote:
| I never mentioned that a narcissist would seek a
| diagnosis for their disorder, only that their disorder
| can be debilitating.
| tartoran wrote:
| Debilitating to themselves but infinitely more harmful
| for the people they interact with. Maybe a diagnosis
| would open them up to some mitigations on their behavior.
| Narcissism personality disorder cannot be cured but
| sufferers can learn to do less harm.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| Narcissism != Narcissistic Personality Disorder. A person
| that lacks narcissism will have a lot of problems.
| whalesalad wrote:
| The notion that a neurotypical person exists is kinda silly.
| What does that even mean? That's like saying this snowflake
| here doesn't look like all the rest.
| odiroot wrote:
| > The notion that a neurotypical person exists is kinda
| silly.
|
| Supposedly they don't. Mental health professionals could
| probably diagnose neuroses or psychoses in most adults.
| cornel_io wrote:
| In an N-dimensional system, as N goes up, every member in a
| normally distributed population is increasingly likely to
| be at an extreme along some dimension (this is related to
| the fact that a hypercube's volume is disproportionately
| close to edges and corners as dimensionality goes up). Even
| if you just stick to the big 5 psychological breakdown, the
| probability that someone is in the middle 80% on every
| measure is only about 1/3, so it's not surprising that most
| of us are a pretty big distance from normal overall.
| whalesalad wrote:
| I completely agree.
| jeswin wrote:
| > The notion that a neurotypical person exists is kinda
| silly.
|
| It's not at all silly. Not more than what's a good car. For
| some, a Toyota model is a good car. For some, a Mercedes
| model is a good car. A Dodge is a good car too perhaps. But a
| boat is not a good car. A Formula 1 engine is also not a good
| car.
| whalesalad wrote:
| Your statements are inexplicably linked to your own biases.
| They are true for you, but only you.
|
| An F1 car wouldn't work for a family with kids but I'd love
| to daily one of those.
|
| Nothing is absolute. Nothing is typical. An "NT" person in
| Japan is not the same as one in the US. Where do you draw
| the line? I posit you don't. There isn't a line. There
| isn't a typical case. We are all so vastly different, often
| in ways we cannot see or understand.
| dasil003 wrote:
| > _An F1 car wouldn't work for a family with kids but I'd
| love to daily one of those_
|
| Even assuming you could handle it (which is a huge
| assumption), you can not drive an F1 around on city
| streets. Ground clearance means will get hung up on the
| first driveway or minor road work you run into.
| whalesalad wrote:
| Not with that attitude you can't.
| jeswin wrote:
| I didn't say F1 car.
| kstenerud wrote:
| Originally it was a way to differentiate between autistics
| and non-autistics, and then suffered language drift. It would
| probably have been better to just start off saying NA for
| "non-autistic".
| guerrilla wrote:
| It didn't just mean Non-Autistic though, people who are
| non-(autistic, bipolar, schizophrenic, adhd, etc, etc,
| etc.) are NT.
| beaconstudios wrote:
| Given that diagnoses are based on physiological divergences
| that make it difficult to function in society, a neurotypical
| person is one who does not have these traits, which is most
| people.
| falcolas wrote:
| If NT is a snowflake, someone with an actual disorder is a
| piece of hail, or a speck of dust.
|
| NT is the large part of the bell curve. It's called typical
| because they share mental ability traits with over 80% of the
| rest of humanity.
| alvarlagerlof wrote:
| Of course there are differences, but in terms of large traits
| and behaviors over the majority of the population there are a
| lot of similarities. Saying no one is NT hurts those who
| absolutely aren't.
| jl2718 wrote:
| "No one is neurotypical"
|
| "I'm not neurotypical. That statement hurts me"
|
| "It seems that we are in agreement on your first statement.
| Please help me understand how the second statement can be
| true."
| jl2718 wrote:
| So, here's what that sounds like without the emotional content:
|
| You are a self-diagnosed-autistic person (SDAP). You are upset
| that other SDAPs are consuming resources intended for 'actual'
| autistic persons. You would prefer to consume those resources
| yourself. You are trying to get a professional diagnosis as
| 'autistic'. You have thus far been unsuccessful.
|
| Are those the facts which you intended to convey?
|
| People tell me I'm autistic all the time. I do not accept this
| label. I will not agree to the diagnosis, treatment, or aid of
| any sort. I don't care if it's in a book. I call it
| rationality. I see information where other people see emotions.
| I realize that this is a deficit in relating to many other
| people and the world at large. If I were to change one thing to
| adapt better, it would be stronger recognition and avoidance of
| emotional people, and closer connection to rationals. Emotional
| people can be very convincing to get what they want from
| rationals.
| kstenerud wrote:
| It is an emotional issue for us, because it's effectively a
| DDOS of the psychiatric services that is preventing us from
| getting the support we need, and preventing a number of other
| things that we could otherwise do.
|
| And no, we are not self-diagnosed.
| [deleted]
| jl2718 wrote:
| Be specific. What exact resources do you want access to?
| kstenerud wrote:
| Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that I was answerable to
| you.
|
| Do you treat all marginalized groups this way?
| jl2718 wrote:
| I don't think I have an adequate understanding of how you
| perceive yourself to be treated.
|
| But, to attempt, I'd first say that I don't 'treat'
| groups. I interact with individuals. Also, I don't know
| exactly what 'marginalized' means, but that sounds like
| something having to do with the way that others have
| treated those individuals.
|
| So I'd probably say, on an individual basis, I think I
| treat most people the same. I tend to have a penchant for
| reaching out to people who I observe to have been ignored
| or mistreated by others because I find that they are
| often very happy to be treated normally, and make great
| friends. I'm not really a big fan of interacting with
| anybody that demands to be treated differently, if that's
| what you mean.
|
| So, yes, I think I'd say that I probably do.
| tomrod wrote:
| This is an internet forum with strangers. For the record,
| demanding personal details is taboo.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| They didn't demand, they asked. If you seek to represent
| your position on internet forums then you're going to
| need to tell people your position.
|
| As access to specific resources is a central part of the
| complaint it seems perfectly reasonable to request more
| details. They can be general, like "I can't book a
| psychiatrist" or "I need specific drugs that are in
| limited supply".
| Dwood023 wrote:
| Since they're a stranger, what's taboo about it? I can't
| imagine anyone being doxxed by the additional information
| requested...
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| > I realize that this is a deficit in relating to many other
| people and the world at large
|
| I'm not sure why, but I keep coming back to your comment,
| even an hour or more after you posted it. I feel sympathy for
| your lack of balance. I am reminded of these Supertramp
| lyrics:
|
| When I was young, it seemed that life was so wonderful
|
| A miracle, oh it was beautiful, magical
|
| And all the birds in the trees, well they'd be singing so
| happily
|
| Oh joyfully, playfully watching me
|
| But then they send me away to teach me how to be sensible
|
| Logical, oh responsible, practical
|
| And they showed me a world where I could be so dependable
|
| Oh clinical, oh intellectual, cynical
| jl2718 wrote:
| Thank you! I had only heard this from Scooter, and didn't
| know the original source.
|
| https://youtu.be/4YxTa1AUqps
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| Wow, that version and the original could not be more
| different:
|
| https://youtu.be/low6Coqrw9Y
|
| I don't hear the remake using anything but the first
| verse of lyrics from the original.
| mam4 wrote:
| Im pretty sure all the other ones you talk about refer to them
| selves as "actually autistic people".
| kstenerud wrote:
| No. They don't. That's the whole purpose of this "actually
| autistic" movement. And the infuriating thing is that it
| shouldn't even be necessary.
| stareblinkstare wrote:
| >"mild" autism has become a trendy status symbol
|
| [Laughs in HN]
| globular-toast wrote:
| This is interesting to me as the author is definitely right that
| people use the word "spectrum" wrong. It has come to mean a
| gradient rather than a spectrum. But that's natural language for
| you. There's not much use fighting it.
|
| I do think that when people talk about being "on the spectrum"
| etc, it is well understood what they mean. I'm sure everyone on
| HN knows at least one person who is "a bit autistic" and maybe
| even considers themselves to be. We all know what it means. It
| might be the wrong words, technically, but we do seem to be
| communicating the right thing.
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| I think what's interesting is that a spectrum can be generated
| from the combination of a series of gradients.
|
| Consider different regulation in specific biochemical pathways
| to be individual gradients. These parameters, when combined,
| can represent many different unique states that exist on a
| spectrum.
| mannykannot wrote:
| This article is not about spectra and gradients in general:
| it is about a specific situation where conflating the two
| creates misunderstanding. In this case, a categorical
| (spectrum) diagnosis should not be regarded as a measure of
| severity.
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| I'm perfectly aware, but I'm providing an example of how
| both concepts could reasonably be applied to not only
| autism but mental disorders in general
| jdowner wrote:
| The reason that some autistic people get upset by that usage is
| that is diminishes how they experience life. It's like saying,
| 'everyone is a little black'. There is a big differences
| between having the genes of a black ancestor in your family
| tree, and experiencing life as a black person. So, to autistic
| people, you are not communicating the right thing.
| pessimizer wrote:
| Some people are a little black. Not everything should operate
| by the one-drop rules of American slavery. I don't think many
| people are saying "everyone" is a little autistic.
| nzmsv wrote:
| But, to play devil's advocate, isn't this exactly what we
| should want, long term?
|
| I think the end goal is for Black and autistic people to be
| thought of as people first and foremost, and their
| differences would take a back seat. This is the only way we
| can be one big happy family. Wouldn't the best way to
| accomplish this be for the rest to realize that they actually
| have something in common with the marginalized groups?
|
| Imagine a white supremacist who learns they had a Black
| ancestor. That would transform their whole world view.
|
| Same with autism: neurotypical people being able to relate to
| quirks that cause social exclusion isn't something to shut
| down. We should be celebrating the normalization of these
| things because _that is how they stop being markers of the
| "other"_.
|
| Sometimes I wonder what the people who are up in arms about
| being "not properly" Black, autistic, etc. have as their end
| game. Perpetual exclusion of the marginalized groups for
| sympathy points? I think many would gladly trade those points
| for greater inclusion.
| SamoyedFurFluff wrote:
| My understanding is that the normalization doesn't mean
| subsumption but that the differences are normal and
| accounted for by default. For example, m/f bathrooms are
| largely considered normal to account for two different
| gender identities (this is extremely simplified; I'm aware
| that non-binary people exist but they are still not
| considered "normal" largely and are not accounted for by
| default). Very few people are running around saying all men
| are a little bit women so why do we have separate
| bathrooms, clearly this is perpetual exclusion.
| jdowner wrote:
| Being able to better communicate with one another is
| obviously a good thing. The point is that the language
| being used isn't facilitating that and that is why the
| autistic community has pushed back on it. So it seems to
| me, that it is now on the neurotypical community to listen
| to that feedback.
|
| Also, autism isn't just about social quirks. These are
| people with different neurophysiology who experience the
| world in a different way. It is not simply a matter of
| holding a different opinion or learning a particular
| behavior. This is not something that can be 'normalized' by
| talking through it.
|
| The autistic community is largely against gate keeping, and
| are quite accepting of people who are self-diagnosed. This
| is not about not being 'properly' autistic, but about
| having a voice. Being a part of society for the person you
| are. To not having the challenges you face in a world
| defined by and for neurotypical people being trivialized.
| watwut wrote:
| > magine a white supremacist who learns they had a Black
| ancestor. That would transform their whole world view.
|
| Afaik, it does not. Nazi who found out they have Jewish
| ancestors did not concluded being Jew is fine. They
| continied to hate Jews and found whole thing unfair.
|
| Self Hate is a thing, ignoring evidence is a thing and both
| can make you even more dangerous.
| licebmi__at__ wrote:
| >Imagine a white supremacist who learns they had a Black
| ancestor. That would transform their whole world view.
|
| Never underestimate the mental gymnastics of racism.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischling_Test
| lr4444lr wrote:
| The problem really is that many or most positive autism diagnoses
| do not come with medically testable symptoms, much like
| depression or anxiety. And it really hurts the truly intractable,
| very clinically observable cases to allow for this definition
| creep IMHO, putting a threshold of points on some psych survey,
| no matter how well normalized, and simply medicalizing people. I
| am not even convinced your typical aspie programmer with the high
| vocabulary who's bad with girls even has the same underlying
| medical problem as the mute kid who rocks in the corner in fetal
| position and didn't learn to use the potty until he was 6. Some
| of these kids for example are improved dramatically when they get
| on immunomodulating drugs. On others it has no effect. The way
| some of the "advocates" speak with such cocksure certainty about
| what is and isn't only hurts the larger cause.
| guerrilla wrote:
| > do not come with medically testable symptoms
|
| Not really true where I am. You have to go through all kinds of
| tests and be tested for other things (to make sure you're not
| those.) I suspect it's the same everywhere.
| watwut wrote:
| The other issue with Sheldon is that Sheldon is actually
| abusive guy and his friends are actually enablers. With best
| friend being mix of enabler and victim.
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| Where are you located and what, precisely, do these medical
| tests entail? What biochemical mechanisms do they look at for
| accurate diagnoses?
|
| From my observation of psychological testing and diagnosis on
| the research side in the US, its a shit show. Most of it is
| self reporting and questionnaires which don't actually tell
| us anything about underlying mechanisms. Its just a bunch of
| symptom check boxes.
| champagnois wrote:
| I have lived a hard life, but I acknowledge no one cares about my
| hardships and they care even less about my identity.
|
| Healthy, functional people are just looking for ways to get
| further ahead in life. People are transactional and do not have
| time for one's long and detailed explanation of a self definition
| unless their time is rewarded in some way.
|
| Happy holidays.
| gallegojaime wrote:
| Very ominous but that's not true. There are plenty of healthy,
| functional kind individuals who are interested in people of all
| kinds. Photographers, good journalists... and people who simply
| are more empathetic to the life circumstances of someone.
|
| Furthermore, if someone is interesting, for the majority of
| people there is a natural curiosity being piqued to learn more
| about that person. Nothing necessarily transactional.
| StephenJGL wrote:
| The "along" the spectrum part that most latch on to
| subconsciously is related to spectrums being a visual measure of
| energy level. That part does increase along the spectrum. That
| being said I think her interpretation is much more useful for the
| actual subject matter and important for people to keep in mind.
| People with actual diversity will often appear high and low
| functioning in various ways. It's important to understand that
| dynamic.
| epgui wrote:
| Totally tangential to the main point, but is no-one going to
| comment on the fact that the colour spectrum actually does in
| fact go from less-something to more-something? It's a spectrum of
| light frequency.
|
| The colour labels, like "blue" or "red" are a psycho-cultural
| construct that are in large part shaped by the cone receptors in
| our eyes, but it's still a spectrum of light frequency.
| orlp wrote:
| Tell me, where does magenta lie on this proposed light
| frequency spectrum? What about black, or white? Brown? Is the
| dress black and blue or white and gold?
|
| There's much more to colour perception than just light
| frequency + psycho-cultural constructs.
| danuker wrote:
| Even the color spectrum depicted in the article misses
| magenta, due to it being a color made of two frequencies, not
| just one.
| epgui wrote:
| Magenta, black, white and brown are all completely
| explainable with the light spectrum, photoreceptors and
| psychocultural constructs.
|
| Nobody ever claimed that every possible colour perception
| needed to correspond to a single wavelength. Rather, every
| possible colour can be constructed from a combination of
| wavelengths.
| alanbernstein wrote:
| The color spectrum is an apt comparison. Yes, a single pure
| hue lies on a simple one dimensional wavelength scale. But
| a color sensed by your eyes is the result of different
| intensities on three different receptor types, making the
| perceptual space more or less three dimensional. The color
| emitted by an object is even more complicated, with an
| intensity for each visible wavelength (to a first order
| approximation).
|
| Maybe the comparison should have been more explicit about
| how the one dimensional color spectrum is a drastically
| simplified representation of color physics, even though it
| already includes qualitatively distinct colors on a simple
| scale.
|
| On the other hand, while _color_ has a lot of nuance to it,
| the _total light energy_ emitted from a source might be a
| much simpler, totally scalar way to characterize light
| sources. If you squint hard, you can think of the autism
| spectrum concept as closer to intensity than to color.
| robobro wrote:
| Goethe vs Newton all over again!
| thanatos519 wrote:
| It goes from less-something to more-something as frequency but
| more-something to less-something as wavelength. "colour" is a
| mix of power at each frequency, and everyone has different
| retinas, different optical cortices, and different cultural
| contexts.
|
| That this causes them such confusion makes it difficult for me
| to empathize with muggles.
|
| "Who in the rainbow can draw the line where the violet tint
| ends and the orange tint begins? Distinctly we see the
| difference of the colors, but where exactly does the one first
| blendingly enter into the other? So with sanity and insanity."
| -- Herman Melville, Billy Budd
|
| What I love about this quote is that violet and orange are so
| far apart in the rainbow.
| baby wrote:
| All I'm reading is that autism is a stupid categorization. It's
| too arbitrary and coarse.
| test0account wrote:
| I don't mind the assumptions. I don't think we are unfairly
| characterized.
|
| What we are is unfairly treated most of the time.
| monetus wrote:
| Tangential, but this audio book about the experience of a young
| autistic Japanese has been useful to me in more ways than one.
|
| The reason why I jump (1)
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eZe8_60zZtg
| bschne wrote:
| Wouldn't things that are some combination of continuous variables
| be called a "space", and not a "spectrum", in the common usage of
| those terms? To use the color example in this post, we for
| instance talk about the RGB or CMYK color space if we mean to say
| that a color is a combination of those primary colors.
|
| Additionally, there was an ACX post a while back [1] talking
| about how to model psychiatric conditions (the author of which is
| a psychiatrist) which did talk about spectrum meaning that it is
| along a continuous axis of severity instead of being something
| you either have or don't. While it didn't talk about separate
| symptoms, I'd venture a guess that they are usually reasonably
| correlated if something is assigned it's own diagnosis, and in
| many cases it may be more meaningful to reduce dimensionality to
| a 1D spectrum instead of looking at every variable in isolation?
|
| 1. https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ontology-of-
| psychiatri...
| stared wrote:
| In general, spectrum is an infinitely-dimensional vector space.
| For each frequency, you get a value.
|
| Using "spectrum" for a "scalar" is a misnomer.
| glacials wrote:
| I was diagnosed over a year ago and have yet to "come out" for
| fear of the exact things the author describes ("but you don't
| seem autistic", "yeah we're all a little like that", etc.). It's
| hard to understand what someone struggles with when they've spent
| their whole lives being trained to hide it.
|
| Imagine having tremendous back pain since birth, so that multiple
| times a day you need to lie down for an hour. You tell people
| about it and they just say "you don't look like you're in pain",
| or "yeah everyone has back pain", and they imagine you weak for
| being so affected by it. As a child you were raised that it's
| taboo to manage your back pain, so you often have to make up
| excuses to go secretly lie down.
|
| You even believe yourself that you are just a failure for needing
| to do this when everyone else can soldier on. You have to turn
| down hikes, trips, even relationships; if a friend invites you
| over you need to make sure there's an exit strategy, or at least
| a place you can secretly take a break if you have a spike.
|
| This is what my life is like. I have been trained to look like
| I'm not in pain -- to hide my shutdowns and meltdowns and
| hypersensitivities, through willpower or through physically
| removing myself. It affects my work, my relationships, and my
| daily life, but the worst part is just the pain itself.
| stepbeek wrote:
| I'm sorry this has happened to you. I've had a chronic sickness
| for three years now and whenever I'm impacted by it I'm met
| with polite confusion. "Oh, isn't that over?"
|
| I can't imagine what a lifetime would be like.
| neal_jones wrote:
| Yea, I pretty excited when I found out because it provided
| answers and tools, but mentioning it to anyone did not result
| in similar excitement, instead some took it almost like an
| insult to them. Didn't take long before I stopped talking about
| it.
| sangnoir wrote:
| > "you don't look like you're in pain"
|
| You don't have to imagine this - it happens a lot today. A
| large number of painful gynecological procedures are done with
| no pain management besides the doctor saying "This might pinch
| a little".
| psychoslave wrote:
| >When people discuss colours, they don't talk about how "far
| along" the spectrum a colour is. They don't say "my walls are on
| the high end of the spectrum" or "I look best in colours that are
| on the low end of the spectrum."
|
| Of course they don't, people all know that color is a complex mix
| depending on what light is projected on the wall, what material
| constitutes the wall (glass?), and so what it will throw back, as
| well as the physiological condition of who look at it (color
| blind), as well as psychosocial framing (are you the hidden child
| of Sapir&Whorf and some Inuit engendered during a fifty shades of
| white party who just ate some psychedelic mushroom?).
|
| Or maybe most of them don't, obviously don't read HN, and will
| look at you strangely if you start to reference any of these
| things, or at best will ask for some explanations. Just like when
| you talk about autism spectrum.
|
| Merry Christmas to everybody.
| psyc wrote:
| As someone on the spectrum myself (in a family that produced 2
| others, as well) I still don't really understand what rationally
| makes all of it "autism". The OP has a section on what we have in
| common, but it didn't answer my question. Is it a scientific or
| medical thing? A root cause? Or is it the type of situation where
| 100 years from now they'll look back and laugh at our archaic
| psychiatry.
| dsizzle wrote:
| > Don't assume anything about an autistic person.
|
| But yet the author describes herself as an "autist," so
| presumably the author _does_ believe we can make _some_
| reasonable assumptions about what being autistic means -- what
| would be the point of using that label otherwise?
|
| I think the point here is that some of one's assumptions will be
| wrong and that you should flexibly adapt rather than stick with
| your initial assumptions? I would agree with that.
| pxc wrote:
| The 'spectrum' has always been an outrageously bad metaphor (with
| autism and elsewhere in psychology), and this article's approach
| to 'correcting' that by _further_ extending the metaphor just
| perpetuates another (even more convoluted and ridiculous)
| iteration of the confusion.
|
| The use of the color spectrum is especially unhelpful, since the
| qualitative features of the color spectrum are totally unrelated
| to what makes it a spectrum, and so the 'distinction' the article
| tries to draw between a spectrum and a gradient is totally
| specious. What makes the color spectrum a spectrum is _precisely
| that_ it 's formed by variation along a single dimension
| (wavelength or frequency, whatever)-- the exact structure the
| article describes as belonging to a gradient as 'opposed' to a
| spectrum.
|
| The diagrams with parts of the color spectrum blacked out are
| pure cringe. Why are you making this broken, disanalogous
| metaphor _worse_ instead of throwing it away??
|
| It's not hard to describe the actual structure of what are
| (inaptly) called 'spectrum disorders' in contemporary psychology.
| They are disorders characterized by clusters of related traits,
| behaviors, and experiences which (variously in terms of severity,
| frequency, intensity, or something) can _each_ vary in degree.
|
| Please stop trying to 'fix' the spectrum metaphor. Just kill it.
| drewcoo wrote:
| Spectrum is just imagery for a continuum, which autism is.
| Would you prefer diapason[1], as in the full range of a thing's
| sound?
|
| [1] Through bad spelling (and not synesthesia) I typed
| "diapasm" first, but it seemed wrong. Turns out it's smelly and
| not soundy.
| pxc wrote:
| Imo, 'continuum' still fails to clearly connote the
| characteristic of having _multiple_ dimensions of variation
| rather than just one, even though in some contexts (like in
| the phrase 'space-time continuum') it is used to name
| something more structurally analogous to 'spectrum disorders'
| than spectrums.
| joenathanone wrote:
| I work in this field and I dislike takes like this, where
| individuals think they can speak for a whole group.
|
| Also this "Having sensory processing issues doesn't make you "a
| little autistic." It makes you someone with sensory processing
| problems. Autistic people will understand your struggles and
| welcome you as a fellow neurodivergent cousin, but that's it.
|
| But in order for a person to be considered autistic, they must
| have difficulty in multiple categories spanning the spectrum."
|
| If someone says that they are 'a little autistic' they aren't
| saying that they 'are autistic', they are just attempting to
| emphasize. Don't destroy that by getting into a semantic debate.
| sidlls wrote:
| I don't agree with this take. I have social anxiety and
| difficulty empathizing with people in certain respects. One of
| my children who is diagnosed has these two issues _and_ some
| sensory and dexterity issues, issues with adapting to changing
| circumstances, and a very limited ability to regulate their
| responses to frustrating situations to the point where they'll
| go on rants with crying and anger that is white hot (a
| "meltdown"). This child is what is commonly called "high
| functioning," though: anybody who has not observed them long
| enough could easily only ever see one of these behaviors
| /traits, and the child is in a regular classroom and has been
| identified as quite gifted in some subjects.
|
| I'm not on the spectrum, and would never claim "I'm a little
| autistic." I might have before I had the kid, but definitely
| not now. My kid's autism symptoms are really minor compared to
| many, but it's so far beyond the kinds of quirks you're
| referring to as to be obviously and starkly different.
| 63 wrote:
| As an autistic person, I usually find people saying that
| they're "a little autistic" without really being autistic a
| little demeaning. They're trying to tell me that they
| understand, I get that, and I genuinely appreciate the attempt
| at connection. However, I literally have this label because I
| am different and they cannot really understand what it's like,
| so it just comes off like they're trying to tell me the way I
| feel about something doesn't matter or like my troubles aren't
| real because they claim to experience something similar (even
| though they literally don't because they're not autistic).
| torstenvl wrote:
| I recommend reading up on what the psychologist John Gottman
| calls a "bid for connection," specifically about not taking
| it at face value but recognizing it as a genuine attempt at
| building rapport.
|
| Nevertheless, you aren't alone in interpreting such bids in a
| negative way. I sometimes ask people, especially defense
| clients, straight up: "Are you a person who finds comfort in
| discussing times when others have faced similar problems,
| even if there are still a lot of differences? Or would that
| make you feel that you weren't being heard as an individual?"
| bjourne wrote:
| Maybe it's different for people with AD(H)D than Asperger's,
| but I don't get it. There is nothing good with having a brain
| disability. Aspie pride is about as dumb as people in
| wheelchairs being "proud" of being born without functioning
| legs. And to Homo Sapiens the brain functions I lack is almost
| as important as walking ability. Asperger to me hasn't meant "a
| little quirky" like Sheldon Cooper. It has meant total
| inability to "get" other people and their intentions. Asperger
| may have made me an awesome developer but if there was a pill
| or treatment to cure it, I'd take it in a heartbeat. People
| calling Asperger their "superpower" is laughable.
| renewiltord wrote:
| People think "High-functioning Autism" means they're
| savants... Some terminology choices can yield comical
| misinterpretations.
| rkk3 wrote:
| > Maybe it's different for people with AD(H)D than
| Asperger's, but I don't get it. There is nothing good with
| having a brain disability.
|
| So what you want people who aren't average to consider
| themselves inferior? I don't know why people wouldn't be able
| to find good things or positives from a disability.
|
| > People calling Asperger their "superpower" is laughable.
|
| Asperger's looks pretty over-represented in the richest
| people in the world. Dyslexia is also over-represented. Bill-
| Clinton, Obama, Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, Larry Ellison were
| all not raised by their biological fathers. Plenty of other
| examples. Adversity can be a super-power.
| blueflow wrote:
| > Also this "Having sensory processing issues doesn't make you
| "a little autistic." It makes you someone with sensory
| processing problems.
|
| This filing-people-into-groups thinking is something that i see
| so often here on HN and I'm so bothered by it.
|
| For me, i do what i feel i want to do, and make up names and
| concept for it afterwards if it seems necessary. Sometimes i
| don't have words for what i am doing. Its a lot of
| improvisation.
|
| For some people, this process seems to be reversed... Like as
| if they need to be "validated" by external concepts, otherwise
| they don't do some things. And they feel relieved when they
| have a diagnosis like "autism". Not having a name/explanation
| for it seems like a barrier to them.
|
| I don't know what i am observing here, but I'd like to know.
| Maybe this is like the inner-monologue thing, where humans
| vastly differ in some regard but are unaware of it.
| TOGoS wrote:
| Similar. I think because I've always been "kind of weird",
| and eternally baffled at so-called "normal" people expecting
| everybody to be like them. Like, we're allowed to be
| different, right? In practice you'll be ostracized. Unless
| you get an official diagnosis. Then you're allowed to be
| weird. Thanks for "accommodating" me, society. But how about
| we just don't structure it in such a stupid way in the first
| place? "No, you weirdo, stop being unreasonable. Go back to
| watching football."
|
| That said, labels can be useful. If other people that are
| similarly weird have found some tactic (or substance) useful,
| you might also find it useful. For me, "aha, it's ADHD!" was
| a huge breakthrough, because it gave me a general direction
| to search for answers (and meds).
|
| So, uh, to summarize: labels can be useful, but I wish
| society was not structured in such a neurotypical-centric
| way. Just let people be different. e.g. If someone says "I
| don't work well in an open-plan office", just believe them.
| They shouldn't need a doctor's note.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| >Like as if they need to be "validated" by external concepts,
| otherwise they don't do some things.
|
| I don't know, I could imagine struggling with their life and
| blaming themselves for it. A diagnosis might well provide
| some relief from that.
| kstenerud wrote:
| > If someone says that they are 'a little autistic' they aren't
| saying that they 'are autistic', they are just attempting to
| emphasize. Don't destroy that by getting into a semantic
| debate.
|
| It's like saying "I'm actually 1/16 Cherokee!" as a form of
| group-identifying empathy. Note: It is not.
|
| > I work in this field and I dislike takes like this, where
| individuals think they can speak for a whole group.
|
| People like us have been trying desperately to get people who
| "work in the field" to understand us for decades, with little
| success. This is but one example.
| Lhiw wrote:
| I say to myself I'm a little bit autistic. But I'm not really
| sure.
|
| I fit the profile of person one in the article.
|
| The reason I'm wondering / even looking at autism is because
| the meds for my ADHD just make everything worse even at
| really small doses and I don't really know what to do.
| TOGoS wrote:
| Yeah, there seems to be a bit of overlap between ADHD
| symptoms and being anywhere other than the extreme
| neurotypical end of the autism spectrum.
|
| As an ADHD person, one thing that has helped me a lot is
| listening to ADDitude Mag podcasts[1]. Listening to people
| who are experts in the subject and are ADHD themselves has
| been quite validating. Like, yeah, we're not stupid, but
| the normies sure make us feel that way sometimes, huh! I
| recommend the ones with Ned Hallowell, especially.
|
| So maybe you're not ADHD, or maybe you are but that's not
| your main problem. There are probably similar podcasts or
| forums or communities for people that are 'weird' or mildly
| disabled in other ways. I guess I'm trying to be helpful
| because I relate, and I know how alienating it can be, but
| the best I can come up with is to quote Timothy Leary and
| say "find the others." Easier said than done. You can talk
| at me if you want. :)
|
| [1] A collection of them I generated from some RSS feed:
| http://www.nuke24.net/projects/Playlister/?playlist-
| uri=urn:...
| Forge36 wrote:
| There's a difference between "1/16th Cherokee" and "growing
| up on a reservation with grandfather".
|
| The full context on the conversation is important.
|
| In this conversation: I'd like to know more on how to define:
| people like us.
| joenathanone wrote:
| For better or worse, I would never know unless you told me,
| and to use your metaphor, the very fact that you can socially
| interact here on HN at all more or less puts you in that camp
| of being 1/16 Cherokee and then stating "people like us".
|
| Of the individuals I interact with on a daily basis, some
| can't vocalize or interact in any meaningful way beyond
| grunting, but of the ones that could, most would likely end
| up banned or shadow banned if they tried socializing on HN.
|
| I don't discount your experience in the least, but for the
| individuals I personally know, work for and with, one of the
| most valuable things they can receive is someone taking the
| time to empathize with them. Most people don't and they end
| up having no or very few friends and/or otherwise being
| social outcast.
| Nasrudith wrote:
| The "1/16 Cherokee" example seems to be clumsy adaptation of
| social techniques for trying to connect via commonalities.
| The intent counts for a bit. It certainly isn't effective or
| pleasing to the target, but it is an attempt to bridge and
| group-identify. That they aren't unconnected strangers with
| no link.
|
| Arguably this a symptom of other conceptual issues (like
| needing genetic connections for kinship as opposed to
| universals). But it is a step of progress and a reason to
| educate rather than shun or scorn.
| manwe150 wrote:
| I assume 'empathize' is meant there?
| whalesalad wrote:
| Autism is still wildly misunderstood. It's a big label on a
| very very big bag of diverse symptoms.
|
| I don't know how any reasonable scientist could gatekeep
| something so amorphous and loosely defined.
|
| You can take a child to 4 different doctors and they will all
| diagnose "autism" differently.
|
| It stands to reason no one knows the truth. We are all just
| making this up as we go along.
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| Honestly this is a massive problem in the psychological
| sciences. Most of the disorders are just collections of
| symptoms without any solid research tying those symptom
| collections to concrete issues in neurological circuits or
| biochemical signaling pathways. Work is being done to fix
| this, but its currently an absolute shit show in my opinion
| guerrilla wrote:
| > Most of the disorders are just collections of symptoms
| without any solid research tying those symptom collections
| to concrete issues in neurological circuits or biochemical
| signaling pathways.
|
| This isn't true for autism, ADHD, bipolar or schizophrenia
| since some biological mechanisms are understood (even if
| these labels aren't perfect), so what are you talking about
| and what do you base it on?
| albedoa wrote:
| Maybe you should start by telling us what you are talking
| about.
| whalesalad wrote:
| The illnesses you mentioned are misdiagnosed _all the
| time_. DSM-V is a joke and so are most mental health
| professionals. They're just fitting a list of symptoms to
| another list of symptoms based on what amounts to
| Levenshtein distance.
|
| Anyone can be diagnosed with ADHD these days. And for all
| intents and purposes the patient might have 9/10
| symptoms. But do they really have ADHD or is it something
| else? We don't even have the capacity to figure that out
| right now because our understanding is so limited.
| bratwurst3000 wrote:
| True. A friend of mine got diagnosed with adhd and it was
| like 15 questions( mostly the same kind) et voila adhd.
|
| I got adhd since a kid and i the test was the same. Only
| they asked the parents and not me. But i think i rly got
| it...
|
| Its like the south park episode where kids got diagnosed
| because the bible bored them...
| novok wrote:
| If you want to, you can spend 2 or 3 days and $5000 to
| get properly assessed by a neuropsycholoist to figure out
| what your issues actually are. That is laborious, time
| consuming and doesn't fit the 15 minute doctor visit
| medical billing model, so it comes down to a 15 question
| screener test for many.
| meiji163 wrote:
| Not only is the diagnostic framework a joke, it's the
| basis of immense amounts of iatrogenic harm [0]
|
| [0] "Anatomy of An Epidemic", Robert Whittaker
| DarylZero wrote:
| And if you think diagnoses are bad, wait 'til you see
| what passes for treatments.
| MrMan wrote:
| probably lying to get amphetamines, which enhance
| performance
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| Our knowledge of schizophrenia is primarily based on what
| medications alleviate the symptoms, this is something I
| learned from pharmacology and biopsychology textbooks.
| Same with ADHD. Autism, I'm not aware of any solid
| research pointing to overarching mechanisms so please do
| cite some if you are. I would love to read it.
|
| Just because some symptoms are alleviated by a medication
| does not mean that must be related to the underlying
| mechanism. Many times medications are altering symptoms
| far removed from the initial cause.
|
| Under the "mechanism" section in wikipedia there are
| multiple theories discussed:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia
| Nasrudith wrote:
| A steelmanned accurate take is that they are not
| biologically objectively confirmable. Which is more of an
| actual problem in psychiatry than other areas of
| medicine. Looking at say past x-rays and noting a tumor
| that went uncommented upon at the time on malpractice
| lawsuits for instance.
|
| But notably also not done the majority of time in
| practice. It is seldom done to the level of say verifying
| your flu strain, let alone other more expensive and/or
| invasive tests which do not serve the patient's medical
| needs.
| whalesalad wrote:
| Yes! Exactly! Is there a name for this phenomenon?
| epgui wrote:
| I don't think it's the answer you're looking for, but
| it's basically how I think about the scientific process:
| we ask all the wrong questions when we have the wrong
| mental models and the wrong vocabulary. But as our
| understanding improves, and as our vocabulary begins to
| map to the real world better, we start asking better
| questions and this unblocks science from progressing.
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| This is why its important for us to consider a broad
| variety of perspectives on a problem and to change our
| own perspectives. It's a complicated problem and its easy
| to get stuck on something that seems "almost kinda right
| enough that it sorta works"
| whalesalad wrote:
| Laying the tracks while the train travels down them.
| Absolutely agree with this. Some of us are better at
| connecting the dots than others. More literal/concrete
| people get stuck in the published or established wisdom
| and have a tough time thinking "outside the box"
| 323 wrote:
| Maybe they should split it into more specific categories.
|
| Like we don't just say "you have heart disease".
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| Personally, I like the idea of reclassifying things based
| on biochemical mechanism. Not that this is any small
| undertaking, as we need to understand the mechanism that
| leads to the symptom(s) _and_ develop some sort of reliable
| test for them. This goes for all psychological issues
| though, beyond just ASD
| caddemon wrote:
| It's sort of a self reinforcing problem though - a lot of
| studies trying to understand biochemical mechanisms are
| taking our existing subpar labels at face value. They
| generally don't have the sample size to get remotely
| close to detection of the probably double digit distinct
| disorders that are making up the "Autism" group. And that
| is further complicated by natural heterogeneity found
| even in control groups.
|
| Personally I think coming up with better behavioral
| characterizations will be an important intermediate step
| to identifying bio mechanisms, because it leads to much
| more tractable lines of questioning. For example, we
| could be quantifying symptoms like rigidity and
| repetitiveness of movement, sleep quality, sensitivity in
| different sensory domains, etc. - which should be
| increasingly feasible to do at scale these days.
| whatshisface wrote:
| That's a good idea but nobody knows the mechanism for
| most brain diseases. When they know they say something
| like "you have a lesion in your right parietal lobe."
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| Yes but that is why researchers are actively working to
| change this. We are aware of the problems, but the system
| we're dealing with is large and complex.
|
| It takes time and effort to learn about the mechanisms,
| just because we don't know right now doesn't mean we
| never will.
| hosh wrote:
| I don't work in the field and I am not autistic. I have a
| daughter who is, and just recently spent holiday times with a
| family that also has members who are.
|
| I don't think neurotypical people can really empathize. I am
| saying this as someone who have had altered states of
| consciousness with psychedelics. It is not the same thing, but
| it was a different enough experience that I know that people
| who have not taken psychedelics or have had visionary
| experiences, cannot really relate to my experiences with
| altered states of consciousness, and those attempts at
| "empathizing" are shallow.
|
| There are two kinds of things when we talk about empathy. One
| is the kind of empathy that comes from shared experience, and I
| doubt neurotypical people can really have an inkling of what it
| is like without having experienced altered states of
| consciousness.
|
| The other kind of empathy is where one recognizes that the
| other person is suffering. The reasons and circumstances by
| which someone suffers is unique to the individual person, but
| what is shared universally is that each person has suffered.
|
| Rather than empathizing with someone by saying they are a
| "little" or "a lot" autistic, it's more precise to look at the
| person before you, in the present moment, and share the
| experience of suffering.
|
| If we are talking about therapy, the author makes a great case
| for clinical outcomes being biased towards mitigating the
| impact an autist has on other people, and not the impact to the
| autist herself. The whole point of explaining the spectrum like
| a spectral signature rather than a gradient is to have a better
| framework for helping people.
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| I think your perspective is valuable. You so try to empathize
| but you also realize the limitations of your own perspective
| which, in my opinion and observations, is light years ahead
| of most people who think they _do_ have the ability to
| empathize and consider radically different perspectives than
| their own. In reality most people have an incredibly
| difficult time considering different thought processes.
| deltahotel wrote:
| many thanks for this article. it helps me understand my son
| better and react better when people ask me about his autism
| level.
| armchairhacker wrote:
| autism (and ADHD) are extremely broad diagnoses.
|
| If I hear someone has autism, the only thing I can assume is that
| their authentic personality is "not normal". And even then they
| could be so good at masking that nobody can tell the difference.
| VampireWillow wrote:
| a) I've never heard _anyone_ say "we're all a little autistic".
| I think by and large people see autism as a spectrum that you can
| be on or not.
|
| b) Her idea of how autism is diagnosed is wildly optimistic. It
| can work for self-diagnosis, ie "no diagnosis", but every
| psychologist and psychiatrist has a different idea of how to
| diagnose it. If you don't present repetitive movements, it will
| likely be very difficult to get a diagnosis.
|
| One of the problems is how the DSM works. To vulgarize, it's a
| tool to diagnose dysfunctional abnormality. But atypical doesn't
| mean dysfunctional in the same way as for neurotypical people.
| And "normal" changes based on culture and context, the very
| concepts used to describe symptoms will change over time.
|
| I think it's easier for individuals to recognize that they are
| neurologically atypical, but that's simply not a diagnosis just
| yet, so they can be misdiagnosed a lot. And there are fads in
| psychiatry that follow popular culture somewhat, so if
| yesterday's ADHD is today's autism, the goalposts are moving.
|
| So hey, maybe trying to put a single label on such a complicated
| spectrum will always be a problem, and we should provide help and
| resources to people who need it without trying to boil things
| down to one word.
| rightbyte wrote:
| She is missing the point of "a gradient". I.e. to know how much
| help or space someone needs without going into 7 dimensions of
| traits. Everyone can't be psychiatrists ...
| mannykannot wrote:
| I see nothing here to suggest that the author is missing the
| point of "a gradient"; on the contrary, she knows what it is,
| that it is _not_ what is meant by "spectrum" here, and argues
| persuasively that mistaking the latter for the former causes
| misunderstanding.
|
| Here, she is giving an example of how this can happen:
|
| "My doctor recently referred to my autism is "mild." I gently
| pointed to my psychologist's report which stated that my
| executive dysfunction as being greater than 99th percentile.
|
| ""That means I am less functional than 99% of people. Does that
| seem mild to you?" I asked her.
|
| "But, you see, I can speak, and I can look people in the eyes,
| so they see my autism as "mild." My autism affects those around
| me mildly but my autism does affect me severely."
| loopz wrote:
| A typical spectrum is the exact same thing as gradients of
| frequencies. The difference is just in interpretation and
| actionable mitigations. You can operate on both levels of
| such a model, for different purposes and effects.
| mannykannot wrote:
| This is not a typical spectrum in the sense you describe.
| As far as I know, There is no plausible model in which the
| various categories of the spectrum are explicable as
| different values of a single continuous variable.
| Attempting to apply this model seems to be part of the
| problem.
| loopz wrote:
| You can say everyone is unique (unique categories), but
| you can also say everybody is human (one category). Being
| gradients/spectrum _is_ the model. All models about life
| will be flawed, unprecise and pretty shallow. It's
| important to be aware of and avoid misuse and
| misapplications of such models. This doesn't mean you can
| never use any model. They are tools, and we must have
| awareness of their outcomes and shortcomings. Even simple
| models can have very complex outcomes in a complex world,
| or when dealing with individuals (singletons) vs
| populations (accumulations).
| mannykannot wrote:
| By writing "gradients/spectrum" you are begging the
| question here, assuming that the spectrum is a
| categorical variable with an underlying gradient,
| analogously to the color spectrum's basis in frequency.
| What you have not said, so far, is what psychological
| variable you regard as analogous to frequency.
| loopz wrote:
| Sure. By going into the perception part of frequency, or
| even psychology, we go more into the subjective. We can
| start to see colors, or types/groups of people's minds.
| This can help with understanding differences, in groups,
| types or categories. It's all tools, and such
| categorization might help with differences that people
| struggle with. For example, more specific struggles than
| autism/non-autism alone.
|
| But then again, you can also find commonalities even on
| the individual level, that might help universally. So
| it's all multiple models and some of them operating in
| multiple dimensions. Inventing new models doesn't
| automatically discard other models.
|
| My point is simply, instead of looking at it as either
| this OR that, the models are that model AND that model
| too, while trying to recognize strength and weaknesses of
| _our_ biases. When confronted with new information, we
| tend to discard old information, as if it 's all
| unapplicable or not politically correct. That's perhaps
| psychology too :) Perhaps, linked to the competitive
| nature of humans.
| emodendroket wrote:
| The argument is clear but not entirely persuasive. There are
| a lot of people on the spectrum who have no hope of
| expressing their thoughts in an essay like this or ever
| living independently. Whether we call it "mild" or "high-
| functioning" or some other choice along the euphemism
| treadmill, it does not change the fact that these people have
| very different prospects.
| mannykannot wrote:
| I may have misunderstood your point here, but I do not
| think the author intended to suggest that her situation was
| in any way a worst case, or to minimize the difficulties
| faced by others. On the other hand, I do think she was
| pointing out that terms like high or low functioning are
| not categories of the spectrum, and nor are they the sort
| of issue it is intended to differentiate between.
| emodendroket wrote:
| I took the point of the piece to be that thinking about
| it in terms of "best" or "worst" cases was itself
| wrongheaded, and that there's no meaningful distinction
| you could make between "high" or "low" function. Assuming
| that's what she meant, I don't agree.
| mannykannot wrote:
| I feel that it is implicit in the passage I quoted that
| the author sees such a distinction, but that her doctor
| was mistaken in assuming that it is determined by the
| spectrum diagnosis.
| blitzar wrote:
| > "That means I am less functional than 99% of people. Does
| that seem mild to you?" I asked her.
|
| If you are less functional than 99% of people, but more
| functional than 99% of autistic people, one might consider
| that mild autism yes.
| fallingfrog wrote:
| I have diagnosed adhd and I'm always struck by how much overlap
| there is between the way autistic and adhd symptoms are
| described. I definitely identify with a lot of the traits of
| person 1.
|
| For me, a lot of my issues stem from my being unable to direct my
| attention towards anything that my brain designates as boring,
| and away from anything I feel to be exciting. I also naturally
| drop out of the real world into my own head where there's a
| constant movie reel going on of memories, songs, hypothetical
| situations, whatever. I've sometimes been zoning out in my own
| world and suddenly realized that one of my friends was standing
| in front of me, waving their arms to get my attention. My eyes
| were open but I didn't see them. I tend to miss pieces of
| conversations and lose touch with people and forget to do things
| because of these issues. So, I dunno, anyways there's a lot of
| overlap.
|
| But I'm a pretty good coder because I visualize the data and the
| relationships between the data, and figure out how it needs to be
| transformed. And the only reason I have a career is that I became
| obsessed with programming as a teenager. So, the neurodiversity
| giveth and it taketh away.
| ok_dad wrote:
| My opinion as an autistic person is the more people who think
| they're autistic the better, it'll normalize it and we'll all
| have better lives. Look at the old chestnut: gluten. Now, because
| everyone thinks they have a gluten allergy, people who actually
| have them can eat so much more good food. That's my hot take for
| today.
| WillPostForFood wrote:
| My hot take: a bunch of shitty gluten free food products have
| displaced better, cheaper, quality food. The people who think
| they are gluten intolerant are worse off, the people who are
| gluten tolerant are worse off, and the .5% of actual celiac
| sufferers are better off.
| emodendroket wrote:
| Nobody forces you to buy the gluten-free pasta or whatever,
| so I can't see how things are worse for the people who
| neither have nor believe themselves to have Celiac disease.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Yeah, I don't know what this is about. You can buy stuff
| with gluten in it. But I can kind of see it as if you had
| 99 things that meet your preference and 1 thing that
| doesn't, then when you move to a world with 900 things that
| meet your preference and 100 that don't, you see that as 9%
| of things being displaced rather than you having additional
| 801 things.
|
| In fact, I shall call this the Percentage Bias. The
| Percentage Bias is when you allege displacement by looking
| at alterations in ratios without looking at alterations in
| total amounts.
| BadCookie wrote:
| I mistakenly thought that I was better off not eating gluten
| because I felt much better after going gluten free. I am now
| fairly sure that the real benefit I experienced came from
| reducing my sugar intake. Cutting out gluten tends to cut out
| sugar in tandem: breakfast cereal, cookies, cake, and so on.
| I wonder if this explains why so many people who aren't
| celiac think they see a big benefit from a gluten-free diet.
| Lots of Americans are flirting with diabetes if they aren't
| already diabetic. (And lots of sugar isn't great for a person
| even if they are completely healthy.)
| carlmr wrote:
| I'm pretty sure that's it. But good luck explaining this to
| a believer.
| caslon wrote:
| Aside from the pandemic years, which are outliers, food has
| been consistently getting drastically cheaper for decades:
|
| https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/food-expenditure-
| seri...
| danuker wrote:
| What actual spreadsheet are you looking at? "Constant
| dollar food and alcohol expenditures, with taxes and tips,
| for all purchasers"? Because expenditure grew.
|
| Look at the FAO food price index, and you see it only
| decreased since 2010-ish, but on average since 1961 prices
| _grew_ to roughly match inflation.
|
| https://www.fao.org/fileadmin/templates/worldfood/images/ho
| m...
|
| https://www.fao.org/worldfoodsituation/foodpricesindex/en/
| alisonkisk wrote:
| jbverschoor wrote:
| And thereby marginalizing a real problem.
|
| Everybody these days is a programmer.
|
| Everybody is an investor.
|
| Everybody is a trader.
|
| Everybody is an entrepreneur.
|
| No thank you
| ok_dad wrote:
| Open the gates, I say. Everyone can be anything.
| md224 wrote:
| I think it's actually the opposite. Because so many people
| think they have a gluten allergy, restaurants offering gluten-
| free options don't feel the need to take it so seriously.
|
| "So what if there's a tiny amount of gluten contamination...
| it's not like these people are going to die, right? They're
| probably just on a fad diet."
|
| Diluting the meaning of a medical condition is not a good
| thing.
| caddemon wrote:
| According to my friend with Celiac, it's a bit of both. She
| definitely has to do more research on any new restaurant
| because there are a number of places out there that do not
| take Gluten free seriously anymore and in particular will not
| be careful about cross contamination even if the issue is
| emphasized. But on the other hand there are also many
| restaurants now that do have a variety of legitimate Gluten
| free options. So it's probably a double edged sword.
| emodendroket wrote:
| And it's not just restaurants -- the grocery stores are
| loaded with options that they didn't previously have.
| xahrepap wrote:
| I have celiac. This is my experience. I am grateful for how
| common eating gluten free is, no matter the cause. But a
| lot of restaurants have started saying "gluten free
| friendly" instead of "gluten free". The communities online
| are great and finding the best places to eat.
|
| Grocery food is way better than it was even just 10-20 year
| ago. It's great.
| s_m_t wrote:
| Unless a kitchen is specifically set up for preparing food
| completely gluten free without cross contamination then there
| is going to be cross contamination. Most kitchens simply
| aren't big enough. It isn't a matter of taking it seriously
| and any kitchen that knows what they are doing will let you
| know they can't make a gluten-free guarantee.
| Eldt wrote:
| If that's how they treat allergens in their food then they
| deserve to lose their licenses.
| Shared404 wrote:
| All of my experience with working at or with restaurants
| suggests they deserve to lose their license, but this issue
| is worse than most.
| dwmbt wrote:
| heavily agree with this. completely orthogonal, but most
| people i know that have worked in a kitchen (myself
| included) have, at some point, mentioned their initial
| shock with how disturbingly gross kitchens are. after
| reading orwell's down and about in london and paris, i
| suppose things have gotten much better, but still, i
| don't think most customers understand this. he goes into
| some great rants about this, if it's of any interest to
| you.
| Shared404 wrote:
| > most people i know that have worked in a kitchen
| (myself included) have, at some point, mentioned their
| initial shock with how disturbingly gross kitchens are.
|
| Same here, this matches my experience exactly.
|
| Thanks for the pointer, I'll check it out!
| skim_milk wrote:
| As a neurotypical, I hear all the time from others (especially
| coworkers in the field of IT) saying they're "a little
| autistic", at least to me these people clearly have done some
| research to conclude they can relate in some dimensions to
| clinical autism, not a confabulation made in-the-moment as a
| desperate and failed attempt to relate to someone who has to
| actually live with ASD. It really does linger in the mind of
| these people and they want to let others know about this
| important factoid about their personality as much as any other
| important point about them and their past. I agree, let them
| have it, but we should also have a social script when talking
| with people who live with ASD so we don't have individuals
| getting upset when the goal might have actually been to be
| vulnerable and open to sharing about themselves.
|
| Also, it appears all experts in the field believe ASD comes
| from assortive mating (people with similar genes that affect
| social function tend to come together). There should be
| resources for these people who think they're "a little
| autistic" and have clearly researched the topic to determine if
| it's safe for them to have children or if adoption is more
| appropriate. It's an unfortunate state of affairs but the
| experts are pointing to ASD as preventable, if you think you're
| almost on the spectrum and married to someone similar to
| yourself, consider researching the topic of "autism and
| assortive mating".
|
| The more open we are to talking about being "almost on the
| autism spectrum" and the more informed we are the better we all
| are!
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| I'm actually quite worried about this problem as someone who
| had an Asperger's diagnosis as a child. I've heard that there
| are medical procedures to allow one to specify which egg they
| want fertilized and where one can choose an egg which is
| certain to not have genetic disorders we can test for. Is
| autism something we can test for in the womb? If so, than
| this shouldn't be a problem for those with money (and my
| understanding is that the procedure I am describing costs
| about 20K).
|
| More broadly, I consider autism to be a strong net negative
| in my life, and I find folks who really embrace Asperger's as
| part of their identity to be alien to me. I'd love to
| eradicate this condition from the earth to spare future
| humans from the pain that inability to socialize will cause.
|
| I'm sure that some people who like their autism will be upset
| about "eugenics", but frankly, we don't have to be God damn
| Nazis to acknowledge that acting eugenicily is good and
| advocating for disgenic behavior is bad long term.
| emodendroket wrote:
| > Is autism something we can test for in the womb?
|
| No.
|
| > I'm sure that some people who like their autism will be
| upset about "eugenics", but frankly, we don't have to be
| God damn Nazis to acknowledge that acting eugenicily is
| good and advocating for disgenic behavior is bad long term.
|
| Well you can pretty much say that Nazism is a natural,
| logical endpoint of eugenicist beliefs. If others decide
| not to cooperate in your little project of eliminating
| "dysgenic" traits then you'll have to compel them with
| force.
| emodendroket wrote:
| Do you mean to say that autistic people, or those with
| autistic traits who are not outright autistic, should not
| reproduce (with each other), because of the risk their
| children may be autistic?
| R0b0t1 wrote:
| That's what he is saying, yes. It's a dangerous thing to
| think because we do not understand if there is actually
| some hidden purpose to the genes that modulate autistic
| behavior, same with depression.
|
| It's a strange thing to bring up after assortative mating,
| really. If it comes up in assortative mating it implies
| there is a reason for the genes to be there.
|
| One example: In various experiments related to resource
| exhaustion, antisocial and/or "autistic" mice were the ones
| to survive the collapse of mouse society as they were more
| likely to not be involved over resource squabbles.
|
| Of course, there are some people who are very autistic who
| do not have very happy lives, and some people who are just
| kind of autistic.
| kloch wrote:
| > Red is not "more blue" than blue is. Red is not "more spectrum"
| than blue is.
|
| I get what they are saying re: autism but this is an incorrect
| analogy. If you measure wavelength then red is quantitatively
| more than blue. If you measure frequency then red is less than
| blue.
|
| Where does this response put me on the spectrum?
| the_biot wrote:
| You take a detail from a sentence and complain about the
| accuracy of that detail while deliberately missing the actual
| point. Your place on the spectrum is:
| internet commenter
| verisimi wrote:
| I find Dr Moulden's explanations of autism excellent - a type of
| ischemia (stroke).
| alvarlagerlof wrote:
| How is that supposed to make sense?
| kazinator wrote:
| The main value of this good article to someone who isn't a
| complete idiot is raising awareness of an issue: that there are
| (supposedly) people out there who think that the autism spectrum
| is just an intensity scale where the "low end" is mild. Watch out
| for this and gently guide toward a better understanding.
| golemiprague wrote:
| mekkkkkk wrote:
| Isn't this caused by a general oversimplification of autism to
| mean "difficulty handling social situations"? I feel that autism
| is being thrown around as a description of this specific, limited
| set of traits that do not align with its formal definition.
|
| And as with everything, if some word is being used for some thing
| other than it's original definition, it will start to lose
| meaning (or gain meaning depending on how you look at it).
| adeelk93 wrote:
| Interesting point. 100 years ago "idiot" and "mental
| retardation" were medical diagnoses. 100 years from now, both
| the evolution of language and the advancement of medicine may
| similarly antiquate the term "autism."
|
| Maybe this is a perpetual cycle when it comes to mental health
| terminology.
| gruez wrote:
| >Maybe this is a perpetual cycle when it comes to mental
| health terminology.
|
| yes, the euphemism treadmill.
|
| https://englishcowpath.blogspot.com/2011/06/euphemism-
| treadm...
| danuker wrote:
| Reminds me of George Carlin.
|
| Warning: politically incorrect content ahead.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUvdXxhLPa8
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