[HN Gopher] The leader who's standing up to China
___________________________________________________________________
The leader who's standing up to China
Author : acqbu
Score : 85 points
Date : 2021-12-24 16:50 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
| natded wrote:
| The Taiwanese leader is hardly "standing up" to China. China's
| calculus of attacking Taiwan is probably a more global in scale:
| for example US submarines can end the maritime traffic in South
| China Sea completely at any given point.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| SCS is not conducive to submarine operations, which is why
| China wants to monopolize it so badly. Otherwise, they are
| completely hemmed in by Korea, Russia, Japan, Taiwan.
| Unfettered sea access for trade or military reasons is seen as
| very important, right now it is easy to cut China off (and
| Russia is still considered a frenemy despite how relations have
| improved in the last 20 years).
| jetsetgo wrote:
| rectang wrote:
| > _" With their lives, blood and tears, the young people in Hong
| Kong have demonstrated for us that one country, two systems is
| not feasible," Tsai said._
|
| The saga of Hong Kong is so sad. They didn't take their freedom
| for granted, they struggled mightily, but ultimately they have
| been crushed.
|
| The lesson for Taiwan could not be more stark. I can see why Tsai
| said this, and why she has received such support from the
| Taiwanese people in response.
|
| It is hard to stand up to the CCP. If an individual with Chinese
| ties did so on a forum such as HN, doubtless they would be
| reported by omnipresent loyalists monitoring these exchanges,
| just as the students were at various US universities.
|
| https://www.propublica.org/article/even-on-us-campuses-china...
| ngcc_hk wrote:
| The game is asymmetric. Hongkonger cannot fight back with all
| guns with chinese hands. Look at many countries and firms (say
| intel lately), Taiwan is still in danger as we are not sure any
| real consequences once the Dist settled down. And how many
| insiders are there. In Taiwan.
|
| Just ... we can hope in a not so hopeful scenario.
| ssss11 wrote:
| Not just US universities - those stories have been widely
| reported in Australia too. I'd expect it's happening
| everywhere...
| mrobot wrote:
| The constant onslaught of US "news" drumming up war on China and
| Russia is very scary. The production value of this site and the
| detail of its design are a problem. Reuters is a problem. This is
| indeed war propaganda. I do think the United States is on the
| offensive in this "cold war", and they they want it to be hot.
| United States foreign policy has historically been, let's say,
| less than helpful. I really do not believe China is a threat to
| the world.
|
| What exactly is there to stand up to? Why not cooperate with
| China for mutual good? I believe Chinese leadership when they say
| all they want is a more multilateral world. US simply can't stop
| being world hegemon. Looking at the way people post both on this
| site and on Reddit about China, it's all same old Yellow Peril
| racism if you ask me. Really getting sick and tired of everyone
| just uncritically taking in US war propaganda and jumping on the
| war wagon.
| rkk3 wrote:
| Yep just another piece of the _Manufacturing Consent_
| apparatus, this one seems more of just a puff piece though.
| CountSessine wrote:
| "Peace for our time", right?
| philsnow wrote:
| > Why not cooperate with China for mutual good?
|
| This works until it doesn't. "American exceptionalism" is not
| unique to Americans.
| jonnybgood wrote:
| > Why not cooperate with China for mutual good? I believe
| Chinese leadership when they say all they want is a more
| multilateral world.
|
| China is attacking Lithuania economically for opening a
| Taiwanese Representative Office. China is not cooperating for
| mutual good.
| monkeycantype wrote:
| I would love to be able to work with the people of China and
| Russia as you're suggesting, I think the great mass of people
| in all these countries would, but you're blurring the
| populations of the countries and the strategic plotting of the
| national leaders. I wonder if you might be making the terrible
| mistake that almost all of us seem to make, of seeing your
| country from the intimate perspective of family, friends and
| ordinary people living their lives, and others through the
| words and actions of national politicians. I think the leaders
| of all of these countries are threats to the world, and not
| because they necessarily have plans of expanding their empire
| across the globe, but because their primary goal is to hold
| power in their own country which requires theatre to the
| populace and flows of wealth to their core supporters. China
| doesn't need to retake Taiwan, there are already Chinese people
| there doing just fine, Russia doesn't need to threaten Ukraine,
| US doesn't need its military practically everywhere, but the
| leaders in each of those countries can't back down on any of
| those things or their person hold on power is over
| zepto wrote:
| The build up of troops on the border of Ukraine, and the
| Chinese military incursions into Taiwan's airspace have not
| been drummed up by the US news.
| justicezyx wrote:
| So first, Taiwan is not sovereign nation. Under international
| law, Taiwan and mainland is one nation. So there is no such
| concept of Taiwan airspace per international law.
|
| And, the so-called incursion is to Taiwan's air defence
| identification zone. That zone covers majority of Fujian
| province. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Defense_Identif
| ication_Z... Literally, mainlanders are intrusion Taiwan adiz
| constantly. That's how ridiculous the western media repotting
| has been nowadays. They'll refuse to even acknowledge an
| obviously physically impossible situation, and blame on
| China...
| zepto wrote:
| > So first, Taiwan is not sovereign nation. Under
| international law, Taiwan and mainland is one nation.
|
| This is the CCP position, yes.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=justicezyx
| newbear1 wrote:
| That's just what reconfigured by international laws. CCP
| of course will proclaim rulings that are favorable to
| China.
| zepto wrote:
| Not so: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29677497
|
| Also, I see your account was created 3 years ago, but
| only became active in the last hour to post defenses of
| the CCP and China.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=newbear1
| newbear1 wrote:
| So first, political topics related to China is sensitive.
| And the ideological arguments are often non respectful
| because of certain social and historical indoctrination
| on the both sides.
|
| I happen to be deeply in both parties, personally have
| close observation of CCP local organisational activities,
| and the American reporting and political treatment on
| CCP. So I think it's useful to hide my identity and make
| throw away account to just reflect a point. Otherwise,
| people would start associate my comments to certain
| ideology allegence.
|
| Because I don't need to educate HN visitors about the
| value of western freedom value, so naturally you'll not
| see my comments to criticizing CCP. Because a lot of
| others can do a better job.
|
| I am just come to provide CCP's view on hot issues.
| Because CCP wield great power. Dealing with powerful
| entity requires rational thinking. Otherwise both sides
| are running into conflicts carelessly, that's when the
| war becomes most damaging to both parties.
|
| Chas Freeman is a good source of similar perspective. He
| is much better than my own writing or expression in
| extending this view.
| zepto wrote:
| > So I think it's useful to hide my identity and make
| throw away account to just reflect a point.
|
| You made the throwaway account 3 years ago, and only
| started to use it two hours ago.
|
| > Otherwise, people would start associate my comments to
| certain ideology allegence.
|
| I think the converse is true. If your account had a
| history of points of view on different topics people
| would be _far less likely_ to see it as being driven by
| ideological allegiance.
|
| > I am just come to provide CCP's view on hot issues.
|
| Thank you for being clear about what you are doing here.
| That is much appreciated.
| newbear1 wrote:
| > your account had a history of points of view on
| different topics people would be far less likely to see
| it as being driven by ideological allegiance.
|
| Well, if everyone is as open as you are showing here,
| then it would already be diverse long ago.
|
| And for as long as I can remember, contrarian views on
| China is attacked blindly with passion. And regardless of
| the views merits and backings, they were labeled as CCP
| agent, buyouts, wumao.
|
| I certainly have views critical CCP and a fairly balanced
| and non ideological driven views on a lot of other
| things. But of course, any contrarian political views on
| China results me be labeled something that is
| automatically non diverse, right?
|
| So all in all, it's not that I have no diverse views, it
| was just that they were viewed non diverse. Like a myopic
| person cannot put much details on what they see. That's
| not the problem of the subject.
| diego_moita wrote:
| > So first, Taiwan is not sovereign nation. Under
| international law,
|
| And who made that "international law"? The CCP? Taiwan is
| sovereign because they want to be, overwhelmingly.
|
| China's imperialism towards Taiwan is just imperialism,
| like in Tibet and Hong Kong. And like Russia in Ukraine.
|
| Nothing different than the U.S. did in Philippines, Iran
| and Latin America during most of 20th century.
| newbear1 wrote:
| International laws are defined by international community
| through some Democratic process.
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law
| zepto wrote:
| In the multilateral case, recognition of Taiwan by the UN
| has long been something that China has had veto power
| over.
|
| In the unilateral case, China prevents individual
| countries from recognizing Taiwan or even implying it's
| independence through threats and retaliation.
|
| A recent example: https://news.yahoo.com/china-
| threatened-send-lithuania-garba...
|
| The only reason Taiwan is not considered sovereign under
| international law is because China has prevented it.
| CogitoCogito wrote:
| > The only reason Taiwan is not considered sovereign
| under international law is because China has prevented
| it.
|
| Same question as here:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29677548
|
| Which "international law" are you referring to that
| doesn't consider Taiwan sovereign? Maybe you mean to say
| that Taiwan/ROC is not a member of the UN? That is true,
| but it doesn't mean that Taiwan isn't a sovereign
| country. Switzerland didn't become a sovereign country
| only in 2002.
| zepto wrote:
| Yes, this is a fair point. I was referring primarily to
| the fact that the UN doesn't recognize Taiwan as a
| separate entity and doesn't give it a seat independently
| from the mainland - e.g. The WHO has been blocked from
| doing so by the CCP.
|
| But, you are right, this is not the same at all as an
| 'international law' establishing that Taiwan is not a
| sovereign country.
| newbear1 wrote:
| > In the multilateral case, recognition of Taiwan by the
| UN has long been something that China has had veto power
| over.
|
| I think you are just stating that that is part of the
| international law, right? Law is just law. It went to
| effect for stakeholders agree that they can abide by bits
| ruling.
|
| Texas is not independent because US does not allow that.
| Right? Because the law dictates that the sovereign power
| is legally the care giver of a group of population on a
| land.
|
| You are mixing law and self conscience.
|
| https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/would-war-
| over....
|
| This is relatively balanced description on the issue. One
| can certainly see that the politics have made the matter
| intentionally vague.
|
| And nternational law is not necessarily written. It could
| be some commonly agreed principles. For example, there is
| no written law says US government can govern the land on
| here. It's based a certain aggreed upon concepts in
| people's mind.
| zepto wrote:
| No - see the other commenter. There is _no international
| law stating that Taiwan is part of China._
|
| If you can provide us with a link to the law in question,
| we might be able to go into this question in more detail.
|
| Until then I think it's fair to assume that you are
| mistaken.
| CogitoCogito wrote:
| > International laws are defined by international
| community through some Democratic process.
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law
|
| Which "international law" exactly states that Taiwan is a
| part of "China"? For example, the UN certainly has never
| taken that position. (Many people mistakenly believe that
| UN Resolution 2758 says that, but even a cursory reading
| of the short resolution shows.)
| newbear1 wrote:
| That of course is political. Stake holders read that as
| close enough to their own position, such that they are OK
| to let the evtual showdown to come after certain time
| point.
|
| I am not saying UN resolution does not give ground to
| Taiwan to be independent, I am just saying CCP reads that
| ad accept to be considered Taiwan and mainland to be the
| same China. And everyone in that decision process
| understand that.
| zepto wrote:
| I think it's clear that there is nothing to support your
| claim that there is any 'international law' that
| establishes that Taiwan is part of the mainland.
|
| It is literally only a position of the CCP and nothing
| more.
|
| As I have pointed out, your account was created three
| years ago, but was silent until a couple of hours ago,
| when you have used it only to support the claim that
| Taiwan is part of mainland China, never commenting on
| anything else.
| devy wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
| zepto wrote:
| Can you summarize that?
| juanani wrote:
| diego_moita wrote:
| > I believe Chinese leadership when they say all they want is a
| more multilateral world.
|
| They say but don't do it. China's behaviour towards Canada,
| Lithuania and most of Eastern Asia is anything but
| multilateral. It is plain and simple imperialism.
| mcswell wrote:
| Repeat after me, Mr Robot: Premier Xi looks like Winnie the
| Pooh. What? I can't hear you!
| systemvoltage wrote:
| Taiwanese Foreign Minister's interview is terrifying, the sheer
| horror on his face: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3D0_Bhzbyo
|
| It's also fair to push back on war hungry narratives, it is
| equally as important to understand all scenarios. Nobody puts
| this better than Gen. Mark Milley:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSBN5xBC1L4
| rectang wrote:
| > _Reuters is a problem._
|
| _Any_ independent news organization is a problem for the CCP.
| justicezyx wrote:
| Well, as a matter of fact, any independent news organization
| is a problem for any modern government. CCP and US
| establishment are equally fearful of independent news
| organization. For example, Assange and wikileak.
| mcswell wrote:
| I guess you mean that President Trump closed down CNN
| because it said so much against him, just like President
| Biden has closed down Fox News.
|
| What? They didn't?
| mcswell wrote:
| I guess you mean that President Trump closed down CNN
| because it said so much against him, just like President
| Biden has closed down Fox News.
|
| What? They didn't?
| analyst74 wrote:
| I'm not old enough to read mainstream news during the 80s, but
| learnt that there was a period of anti-Japanese fear mongering
| due to Japan's rising economy. It caused riots, burning of
| japanese products, and street violence to people who looked
| like Japanese.
|
| I'm not too worried about war between nuclear powers, but I do
| fear for Chinese and Chinese-looking people living in the west.
| monkeycantype wrote:
| We should all worry about the kind of people who would harass
| Chinese looking people in the west, but as someone in
| Australia, I'd like to assure you that while it is definitely
| very hard to move to a new country, a new language a new
| culture, and there are racists everywhere who tend to be loud
| and impulsive and hurtful, people here are deeply proud that
| this is a place where people from around the world have been
| able to come to make a life and contribute their culture.
| With each wave of immigration there has been initial wariness
| and eventual embrace. If you ever get the chance to come to
| Melbourne, ask people about the post war Vietnamese
| migration, if you read the media from the time you'd think
| there was hostility towards Vietnamese, what you'll actually
| encounter is pride that Vietnamese are here and a real love
| for the Vietnamese people. Read about the visas given to
| Chinese students after Tiananmen, and the pride people have
| in the hybrid Indigenous/European/Asian culture of Broome
| which was exempt from the White Australia Policy, and you'll
| see the world people want is a very different place to the
| fearful place our national leaders are dreaming for us
| morpheos137 wrote:
| Russophobia is omnipresent in the Western press too. It is
| simply another form of racism.
| diego_moita wrote:
| Speaking as a Latin American, Russia is just another banana
| republic with 100 million people and nukes.
|
| > simply another form of racism.
|
| That's just plain stupid. I fear their authoritarian and
| murder leader, I don't fear their people.
| throwway1234 wrote:
| I'm a Russian language learner for many years. When you
| listen to Putin what he tells his Babushkas, you now you
| cannot trust him one word. BTW, I recommend to listen to him
| as a learner: He speaks slowly, very articulate with clear
| pronunciation, so he can tell Babushkas that foreign power
| are threatening Russia.
| coeneedell wrote:
| I don't think it's racist to be worried about a nuclear power
| colonizing its neighbors.
| natded wrote:
| Superpower logic is far too cold for terms like
| _colonizing_. There is very little focus on such
| _ideological by-products of power_ when the General Staff
| makes its considerations and recommendations for the
| security of the state. If you think in terms like these,
| from some liberal shitlib university, against military
| superpowers who can guarantee MAD with nuclear weapons you
| are not going to make heads or tails any of it.
|
| It is best to purify your mind and just read Thomas
| Schelling.
| yumraj wrote:
| > I really do not believe China is a threat to the world.
|
| Tibetans, Uighars, HKers and citizens of almost all the
| countries that share a land or sea border with China will
| disagree with you.
|
| And so will all the countries, such as Lithuania, and private
| companies who have been forced to toe CCP line.
|
| I can keep going on...
| natded wrote:
| US isn't technically drumming up war on China and Russia; they
| are promoting war to the last Ukrainian against Russia, and
| probably the last Taiwanese against China. A difference, but
| probably enough to help US hitch a long as superpower couple of
| decades if either of these events take place.
|
| Direct confrontation between Russia, China vs. US is not even
| in the question. US couldn't defeat couple of goat herders and
| they're going to level up to S-tier opponents? I wouldn't even
| bet on US against Venezuela or Iran at this point.
| systemvoltage wrote:
| > US couldn't defeat couple of goat herders and they're going
| to level up to S-tier opponents? I wouldn't even bet on US
| against Venezuela or Iran at this point.
|
| Operation Desert Storm was a success and completely
| overwhelming. The amount of power projected was incalculable.
| Here is an extremely detailed account of it:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxRgfBXn6Mg
| natded wrote:
| OTOH, US did just this year lose its longest war and it was
| against Afghanistan. I rely on this closer event. Granted,
| admitting the loss there was the first step in road to
| recovery.
| systemvoltage wrote:
| It wasn't a conventional war. I don't think there is any
| defense to the massive fuck up in the Afghanistan exit
| strategy though. But, to say that US military is
| incapable of doing anything is a pretty lousy argument.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| What is conventional war? Do you think that the Chinese
| or Russians will play nice and play war ship for ship,
| plane for plane and tank for tank against the US like the
| Iraqis did at the beginning?
|
| The US military generally has a very "meh" track record.
| xxpor wrote:
| Otoh, the us was able to maintain the status quo with the
| taliban being relegated to the mountains with 3500 troops
| against ~75000 taliban. The DOD has over 1 million troops
| at their disposal. If you seriously think Afganistan was
| more about absolute power vs political willingness.. I
| just don't know what to say.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| That isn't actually right. Yes there were 3500 actual
| soldiers on the ground, but they also had tens of
| thousands of afghans they would use for a lot of the
| dirty work, and multiple thousands of other support
| personnel necessary outside of Afghanistan. And that was
| just during the drawdown, during surges there were even
| more at various points in time.
|
| As for sheer numbers of troops, the US doesn't have the
| capability to actually outfit, support, and deploy
| anywhere near a million troops in, for example, the
| middle east.
| moogleii wrote:
| Curious, why do they describe her as a technocrat when her
| background is in law?
| mrec wrote:
| "Technocrat" doesn't necessarily imply "technologist". It's
| like the more colloquial "wonk", i.e. someone who's more
| interested in the minutiae of policy rather than party
| affiliation or personal aggrandizement.
|
| Offtopic: dear god that article is a design trainwreck. I don't
| think I've ever been more thankful for Firefox's reader view.
| kodah wrote:
| I thought it usually implies a Subject Matter Expert, rather
| than someone who dabbled too much in policy
| droopyEyelids wrote:
| It is interesting how long a nearby territory/country can 'Stand
| up to China'
|
| When you look at _countries_ (not even territories!) that have
| tried to 'stand up' to the USA, you only see a trail of
| immiseration and coup d'etat. They don't even have to be _that_
| close to us geographically, like Nicaragua or Chile. Cuba is the
| closest to a success story, and look at their economic
| indicators. https://tradingeconomics.com/cuba/gdp-per-capita-ppp
|
| I don't know what conclusion to draw from this, but it's just
| wild to me that China is a superpower, and not only has Taiwan
| failed to have a revolution, but they're a financial success.
| https://statisticstimes.com/economy/country/taiwan-gdp-per-c...
| zepto wrote:
| Taiwan has had the protection of and deep economic cooperation
| with the USA.
| [deleted]
| whodunnit wrote:
| Superpower (from Google): A powerful and influential nation,
| especially a nuclear power that dominates its allies or client
| states in an international power bloc.
|
| > I don't know what conclusion to draw from this, but it's just
| wild to me that China is a superpower, and not only has Taiwan
| failed to have a revolution, but they're a financial success.
|
| It would seem that China doesn't meet the definition of a
| superpower, but I think we should all be very wary of any
| nation or individual who seeks power over others. Those who
| seek power are those we don't want to have it.
| trynumber9 wrote:
| >territory/country
|
| How telling.
| CogitoCogito wrote:
| Taiwan (ROC) has been a separate country on the doorstep of
| China (PRC) for more than 70 years. This status quo could
| certainly continue another 70 years. This status quo could even
| outlast the PRC government.
|
| I think the conclusion you should draw from this is the obvious
| one: China is not all powerful.
| riffic wrote:
| by "separate country", Taiwan is governed by a group that
| believes it is the true government of China in exile. It
| might be helpful to be clear about this.
| CogitoCogito wrote:
| > by "separate country", Taiwan is governed by a group that
| believes it is the true government of China in exile. It
| might be helpful to be clear about this.
|
| The overlapping (though not equal) border claims by the ROC
| and the PRC don't change the fact that they are two
| separate countries. No clarity is required because it
| really isn't relevant. Border disputes between countries is
| entirely normal.
| riffic wrote:
| you're muddying the waters and it's absolutely relevant
| (History and historical context is always relevant). In
| 1949, the Republic of China retreated to the island of
| Taiwan and continues to this day to claim to be the
| government (in exile) of China.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreat_of_the_government_o
| f_t...
|
| This isn't a simple border dispute between separate
| countries. It's a _governance dispute_ between two
| competing claims to a single country.
| natded wrote:
| This is pretty funny though, if I've understood this
| correctly. People in the West always seem to think that
| _a properly_ democratic government made by the chinese
| people (be it those in Taiwan or those in China) would be
| "peaceful", but to me if I look at a map and _observe_
| the lands Taiwan claims for herself, it seems quite a lot
| (if they do actually claim the rights to governing the
| China-China too, and not just Taiwan the Island)
| CogitoCogito wrote:
| > This is pretty funny though, if I've understood this
| correctly. People in the West always seem to think that a
| properly democratic government made by the chinese people
| (be it those in Taiwan or those in China) would be
| "peaceful", but to me if I look at a map and observe the
| lands Taiwan claims for herself, it seems quite a lot (if
| they do actually claim the rights to governing the China-
| China too, and not just Taiwan the Island)
|
| Are you making the claim that Taiwan's official
| historical claims somehow make the current country not
| peaceful? How exactly? Exactly what belligerent actions
| has Taiwan engaged in recently?
| CogitoCogito wrote:
| > This isn't a simple border dispute between separate
| countries. It's a governance dispute between two
| competing claims to a single country.
|
| Actually it's not even theoretically a single country.
| The "China" officially claimed officially by the ROC is
| quite different than the "China" officially claimed by
| the PRC. The difference between the claims it at least
| Mongolia.
|
| But you are correct it's not a simple border dispute. It
| is a complicated border dispute that has gone on a couple
| generations now. But it's also complicated dispute
| between two separate countries. It is quite clearly you
| who are trying to muddy the waters here.
| rectang wrote:
| This is pure, distilled whataboutism.
| kube-system wrote:
| Isolating yourself from the world's largest economy isn't a
| winning economic policy.
| CogitoCogito wrote:
| > Isolating yourself from the world's largest economy isn't a
| winning economic policy.
|
| If you're saying that Taiwan is isolating itself from China,
| then you are very wrong. Taiwan and China's economies are
| very intertwined. Taiwanese companies have had a large hand
| in the economic growth of China during the past generation.
|
| It's a good reminder that countries can do quite well working
| with one another even if they're rivals. Hopefully this
| reality keeps hostilities in check.
| kube-system wrote:
| I'm not saying that -- I'm responding to:
|
| >_countries_ (not even territories!) that have tried to
| 'stand up' to the USA, you only see a trail of immiseration
| and coup d'etat.
|
| I think the situation demonstrates that China needs Taiwan
| more than the US needs Cuba.
| [deleted]
| trasz wrote:
| I'm not sure it's a valid comparison, because no other country
| is even remotely comparable in aggressiveness with USA. What if
| you compared with eg India instead?
| WillPostForFood wrote:
| If you look at Russia's invasion of Georgia and Ukraine, they
| are at least "remotely comparable".
| trasz wrote:
| Couple of thousands dead (Ukraine) vs one million dead
| (Middle East); I'd say that's quite a difference.
| adolph wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
| hourislate wrote:
| What about the 7-14 million Ukrainians Russia starved to
| death, do they count? Sure it happened a while ago but it
| happened and it was Russian aggressiveness that still
| reverberates today. Your attitude dismisses you from any
| and all future discussions on this matter. You have
| demonstrated that your are unfit to comment.
| trasz wrote:
| What about all the natives slain by Americans, and then
| the slavery? How about racist laws designed to get the
| black population into prisons (largely successfully)?
| What about people dying, because money that would
| normally be used to fund healthcare are being wasted on
| invading other counties instead?
|
| So, I'd say it makes sense to focus on the current state
| of affairs, including recent history. War in Georgia is
| recent history, as is the Middle East. Holodomor,
| American concentration camps for Japanese, or apartheid -
| not so much.
|
| Not to mention that people responsible for Holodomor are
| all dead. People responsible for killing million random
| civilians in the Middle East are living very comfortable
| lives, and their fellow citizens don't even consider them
| criminals.
| enaaem wrote:
| You don't decide what is relevant. Ukraine has not
| forgotten and it is clear which side they have chosen
| now. No country in the world has such bad relations with
| it's neighbours than Russia.
| trasz wrote:
| Oh, American natives didn't forget either, same way the
| Chinese never forgot about Japan and Russians about
| Nazis, but it doesn't change the fact it's all ancient
| history.
|
| Also, don't get me wrong, but Ukraine doesn't exactly
| have good relations with USA either. Remember how twenty
| years ago they promised you protection if you give up
| your nuclear weapons? They screwed your over. Now they
| are denying you NATO membership, for the same reason.
| They are really good at propaganda though.
| enaaem wrote:
| The USSR was pretty much Russian imperialism. Russia is
| still very unpopular in eastern Europe.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
| juanani wrote:
| srvmshr wrote:
| If we are talking about China-India equations, they are
| troubled too. China claims vast swathes of land all along the
| Himalayas, including two Indian states (as being part of
| ancient Southern Tibet). It is interesting that China
| recognizes claims only unilaterally, as any territory in
| dispute on Chinese side is immediately shut off from the
| discussion.
|
| India & China are in middle of a military standoff, which
| began in 2020 summer, about border lines [1]. It has seen one
| of the most massive buildups since 1962 Sino-Indian war
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%932021_China%E2%
| 80%...
| trasz wrote:
| So, how many people died in that conflict?
|
| Because, frankly, I don't give a damn about oil or
| territorial claims. That's just politics. People's lives -
| that's what matters.
| justicezyx wrote:
| Ms. Tsai is a skillful politician. Her success primarily lies on
| the adoption and the adept use of identity politics in Taiwan.
|
| Despite a long history of national linkage with mainland China,
| Taiwan, under the colonization and brutal cultural and economic
| transformation by Japan invasion in the early 20 century till the
| end of WWII, have gone through a heart breaking separation from
| the homeland.
|
| Ms. Tsai, just like her mentor, Mr. Lee Teng-hui are heavily
| influenced by liberal Democratic political ideology, and refined
| that with a modern form that is closer to western worlds. Mr. Lee
| Teng-hui represents a more Japanese heritage. And because of his
| disillusioned passion for communism, Lee had been a communist,
| and got bullied by KMT after the retreat.
|
| Ms. Tsai led a whirlwind of political ascension through labeling
| "Ben Sheng Ren " "Wai Sheng Ren " political identities. Where she
| also mastered the online propaganda toolings eg the 1450 army (ht
| tps://zh.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%B6%B2%E7%B5%A1%E6%89%93%...).
| Mrs. Tsai's domestic policy heavily rely on trade economic value
| for political ties like importing US pork with additive that are
| known to have harm to human
| https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%B6%B2%E7%B5%A1%E6%89%93%...
| And cultivation of national pride to distance the Taiwan island
| from mainland, and make the island more prestigious and similar
| to a national body. Like the so-called "advanced vaccine" by
| Taiwan's own Rd center
| https://www.dw.com/zh/%E5%8F%B0%E6%B9%BE%E5%BC%80%E6%89%93%E...
| these vaccines are rushed to public without adequate testing, and
| caused higher than usual death.
|
| Ms. Tsai obviously has no adherence to the international law that
| recognize Taiwan as a part of China. And many Taiwan politicians
| are fearful of joining China for historical reasons. They even
| rejected Jiang Zeming's offer to retain it's own military and
| civil government, by just recognizing formally the CCP led
| central government, literally a federated nation.
|
| Unfortunately, Taiwan's cultural linkage to China is weak. And
| the mainland is gearing towards a coercive reunification in some
| form that is appropriate to China's economic and political
| consideration. I.e., If China continue to grow and surpass US in
| all major aspects of national strength, Taiwan can keep this
| state indefinitely, as China does not really care that much when
| it becomes a more powerful US. But US won't allow that, global
| hegemony is a zero sum game, the loss of that status will destroy
| US financial industry, for an example of the consequence. And
| Taiwan for her self proclaimed high vision of independence, is
| heading into a dead end. As a weakening China will be more
| hostile to the island, Taiwan, in its own pursuit of some
| potlical value, will bring ruin to the island, probably bundled
| with significant damage to the mainland. Meanwhile, US would
| righteously declare the victory of democracy, and say nothing
| about the human suffering in the conflict, and exploit the
| economic loot afterwards.
|
| In the end, I'll support the growth of China in all aspects of
| national power. Hopefully a better version of US can born from
| that. I'll do my best to influence the Western audience about the
| more complicated aspect of Taiwan issue, to broaden their view
| about alternatives than just the black and white democracy vs
| xxxx (authoritarian dictatorship swap any of your favorite words
| on China).
|
| The US led world order is simply not going to sustain, everyone
| needs to understand not only US cannot make an example of the
| right and good, US no longer have the means other than
| destruction in shaping other nations' fate.
| thoughtstheseus wrote:
| This comment is straight bunk. Anyone truly curious should seek
| out primary sources from actual people living in Taiwan.
| [deleted]
| diego_moita wrote:
| I take from this that you're a CCP agent.
|
| The majority of your past comments are reiterations on the
| talking points and propaganda of the Chinese Communist Party.
| rectang wrote:
| The HN policy is that we're supposed to assume people are not
| paid shills.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
|
| > _Please don 't post insinuations about astroturfing,
| shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades
| discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about
| abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data._
|
| In the case of articles touching on China, though, this is
| hard. We will never hear the perspectives of Chinese
| nationals who disagree with the CCP line, even if they reside
| outside of China, because they will be reported and their
| loved ones will face fearsome punishments. So HN "debate" is
| polluted because only one side is let through, regardless of
| whether those espousing the CCP line have any formal
| relationship with the CCP.
| newbear1 wrote:
| The logical reasoning is starting lacking, and the
| preassumptions are equally entrenched.
|
| > We will never hear the perspectives of Chinese nationals
| who disagree with the CCP line
|
| This is not true. Watch Radio Free Asian, the epoch times,
| and many indenpent Chinese dissident channels on YouTube
| like Mr. Jiang Feng (https://youtube.com/c/%E6%B1%9F%E5%B3%
| B0%E6%97%B6%E5%88%BB). These are mostly Chinese speaking
| content. You of course can find a lot of English content of
| western media interviewing Chinese dissident.
|
| > they will be reported and their loved ones will face
| fearsome punishments.
|
| Another slander by western Media about the social situation
| in China. Essentialy, the media wants to paint the Chinese
| soceity as inhuman, and incapable of rational thinking.
| That of course becomes a nice subconscious justification of
| violence towards them, like what happened in the colonial
| era by White colonists to justify their policy towards
| Indians.
|
| Chinese do not report their friends and family. The might
| expose by standers occasionally, online. But again that's
| not too different from someone got cancelled here.
|
| > polluted because only one side is let through
|
| The one sided part is the negative and inhuman side of
| China right?
|
| Think yourself for a moment the slanders some IDs received
| when they advanced a contrararian view on China with
| seemingly plausible backings, and the unanimous views that
| portrait a unjust and inhuman Chinese society.
|
| If you think the one-sided part is the positive part, then
| it bears explanation that how someone stating objective
| truth got slandered repetitively without any factual
| counterparts.
| orhmeh09 wrote:
| Radio Free Asia is a propaganda outlet run by and for the
| US government and it used to be attached to the US state
| department: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Agency_f
| or_Global_Media
| yumraj wrote:
| > In the end, I'll support the growth of China in all aspects
| of national power.
|
| If you're a Citizen of the Mainland China, then I'll support
| your right to support your nation and its current CCP
| Government, even if I disagree with it.
|
| However, if you're a resident/citizen of a Western nation and
| earning your livelihood there, I'll encourage you to take
| another look at the whole situation and decide for yourself if
| CCP model and its behavior towards other nations and even its
| own minorities is really the right model for any country, let
| alone China.
| dh5 wrote:
| Here comes the 50 cent army
| akomtu wrote:
| I have to disagree. The comment above uses proper English,
| proper formatting, cites sources where appropriate. That's a
| 5 dollar comment at the very least.
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