[HN Gopher] Sensor Network Technology in Vinge's a Deepness in t...
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Sensor Network Technology in Vinge's a Deepness in the Sky
Author : strlen
Score : 58 points
Date : 2021-12-24 16:34 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (blog.regehr.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (blog.regehr.org)
| beamatronic wrote:
| As the article refers to, the technology demo 20 years ago got as
| far as deploying the sensors from a radio-controlled airplane,
| and then driving a tank nearby, and receiving and processing the
| sensor data received. I can only imagine how far this technology
| has developed in the meantime.
|
| I'm vaguely disappointed I can't go down to Costco and buy a
| 100-pack of localizers to sprinkle around my own property.
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| > _I 'm vaguely disappointed I can't go down to Costco and buy
| a 100-pack of localizers to sprinkle around my own property._
|
| I choose to be very glad that my neighbors can't wait for an
| opportune gust of wind to spread a 100-pack of localizers to my
| property.
| zwkrt wrote:
| Funny I should see this here, having just reread the book two
| days ago. Apart from the Sci Fi elements, of which Vinge is
| rightfully lauded, I love how much depth there is in the book w/
| regard to individuals' scheming and how layered the conversation
| is. At one point two factions of humans are listening to a live-
| translation of an alien radio show debate between rivaling
| aliens. The scene simultaneously moves forward the plot for each
| of the human factions, each of the alien factions, and the
| translators themselves, all of whom extract important info
| unnoticed by the others. Later it's revealed the situation was
| /even more complicated/ than anyone thought as misinterpretations
| occurred across the board.
|
| Does anyone else have recommendations for sci fi or otherwise
| with such complex intrigue?
| nynx wrote:
| There are some technologies that should not be created.
| awinter-py wrote:
| at long last we have created the torment nexus
| TheMagicHorsey wrote:
| Ubiquitous sensors would be a great thing for owners of large
| parcels of property ... such as farmers and ranchers.
|
| But maybe not such a good thing for civil liberties.
|
| I love how Vinge explores these issues in his books. He's really
| underrated. When The Expanse was announced, I was excited ... but
| a bit disappointed that that series made it to the screen as the
| first hard sci-fi book across the line, before Vinge's work.
| walrus01 wrote:
| It probably would be possible to turn A Deepness In the Sky
| into a TV series, but it would need about the same high budget
| and first season run time as the Foundation series (10 hours?)
| to really go into sufficient depth on the 3 different cultures
| involved, and the order of events in that one book alone.
| Sharlin wrote:
| It would be an interesting challenge to depict the Spiders in
| a manner faithful to the book, given the plot twist at the
| end that <rot13>rirelguvat gur uhznaf (naq gur ernqre) unq
| yrnearq nobhg gurz unq orra guebhtu na haeryvnoyr aneengbe -
| gur uhzna genafyngbef jub unq "ybpnyvmrq" (uru!) rirelguvat
| jevggra sebz gur Fcvqref' crefcrpgvir.</rot13>
| akkartik wrote:
| _" The QHL is not depicted as being able to move itself; it is
| moved passively around its environment by riding on humans, air
| currents, etc. However, at least a bit of mobility is implied by
| the presence of a magnetic actuator and by the QHL's ability to
| create a gritty surface on a switch."_
|
| The way I imagined this while reading the book was that the
| sensors are ubiquitous, so it's not about making them move so
| much as selecting the sensors in a specific area to view imagery
| from or enable grit attraction on.
| akkartik wrote:
| _" The main thing we know about the QHL's software is that it is
| large and complex enough to defeat a years-long "software
| archeology" effort directed at determining whether the nodes can
| be trusted (in the end, they cannot)."_
|
| _" cheap, effective sensor nodes lead to a government with the
| capacity for ubiquitous surveillance, which leads to a police
| state, which leads to societal collapse or worse."_
|
| It feels helpful to reframe "can it be trusted?" as "who knows
| more about its emergent runtime behavior?" This makes it more
| obvious that there are answers that can't be found by staring at
| the source code. Vinge was likely aware of the unanticipated
| behavior of the Morris worm
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_worm) when he wrote
| Deepness. In the years since this book, we've seen more examples
| (stuxnet[1], ethereum[2]) of software with behavior unanticipated
| by -- and even weaponized against -- its creators.
|
| (I'm very interested in this subject, and research ways to
| prevent unanticipated runtime behavior. My approach can be
| summarized as, "keep software small and simple to stay out of
| dark forests[3].")
|
| [1] "accidentally spreading beyond its intended target"
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet#History
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethereum#The_DAO_event
|
| [3] https://www.paradigm.xyz/2020/08/ethereum-is-a-dark-forest
| sbisson wrote:
| Vernor is a proponent of ubiquitous sensors as an alternative or
| as an adjunct to AI; the example he likes to use is what he calls
| the "localizer", a simple sensor that can detect its position
| relative to other nearby sensors of the saem type.
|
| So instead of complex vision systems to find, say, a part in a
| bin in a warehouse, a locator attached to the item would inform
| the network that it was "Two items down and three across in bin
| #243. Oh, and I am upside down", allowing a robot to quickly
| retrieve the item. It's an interesting approach to what Robert
| Forward called "artificial stupidity".
| SCHiM wrote:
| I've got this idea that, given some R&D and technological
| advancements, an advanced military could drop 'dust sensors'
| over a future battlefield, or entire country.
|
| Each particle of dust is a tiny computer with simple sensors,
| near field laser beam directed stealth communication node, FOF
| identification sensor, and maybe more. Soldiers could plug into
| this network (all properly encrypted, yadayada) en see and
| listen to the enemy. Dust covered vehicles could be tracked as
| long as they stay in a well-dusted area.
|
| The idea is not that the enemy cannot see that you've 'dusted'
| their country/battlefield, but that you've dropped so much of
| this self-organizing sensor dust that they cannot block it all.
|
| I'm assuming that the dust could be radiation hardened against
| EMP or other area of effect 'cleanup' measures, and that they
| are powerful enough to run proper cryptographic code, to ensure
| proper functioning of FOF and the communications.
| porkbrain wrote:
| One of my favorite sci-fi books. I had a lot of fun thinking
| about how I would implement the localizers. I don't have the
| relevant background so I later found out that my ideas, some of
| which I put into a blog post[0], were rather naive.
|
| Anyway, great timing to see this posted over the Christmas break.
| I wanted to reread The Witcher, but this has revived my desire to
| read more of Vernor Vinge. Recommendations welcome.
|
| [0]: https://manyagents.ai/posts/001_swarm
| skywal_l wrote:
| I believe the sensors are used more prominently and are actually
| an essential element of the plot in "A fire upon the deep".
|
| In that book, giant ships are being powered by computer systems
| that are so complex, nobody fully master them and you need
| computer archeologists who spend their entire life studying how
| those system works to maintain and improve them. The hero of the
| book is actually one of those archeologists. If I remember
| correctly, he's the only one to know the meaning of the "unix
| epoch".
|
| Edit: got my wires crossed. Indeed the book I am refering is
| actually the one mentionned in the article.
| akkartik wrote:
| You're thinking of "A deepness in the sky" :) One of my
| favorite passages: http://akkartik.name/post/deepness
| linspace wrote:
| "The word for all this is 'mature programming environment.'
| Basically, when hardware performance has been pushed to its
| final limit, and programmers have had several centuries to
| code, you reach a point where there is far more signicant
| code than can be rationalized..."
|
| The heat death of programming
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| My favorite part of that was the historical mix-up - the Qeng
| Ho, and presumably the rest of humanity, assumed that the
| Unix epoch marked the moon landing, which was only six
| months' off!
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