[HN Gopher] Trisquel GNU/Linux
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Trisquel GNU/Linux
        
       Author : disadvantage
       Score  : 58 points
       Date   : 2021-12-24 15:28 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (trisquel.info)
 (TXT) w3m dump (trisquel.info)
        
       | velcrovan wrote:
       | Another Linx distro catches up to the user experience of Windows
       | for Workgroups
        
         | lovelyviking wrote:
         | I do understand that it is intended to take on board as many
         | former windows users as possible but honestly I can't even look
         | at it without pain just because it reminds this ugly windows
         | 'style'.
         | 
         | I would really prefer they would put something else as default.
        
       | theamk wrote:
       | Those people are super shy about what their system is based on,
       | which packages are available, and what is unique to Trisquel.
       | 
       | From what I could find out, it seems to be another Ubuntu-based
       | system, but with all non-free parts disabled. Is there anything
       | more to it?
        
         | smitty1e wrote:
         | Debian/Ubuntu seems the default, but projects could be more
         | clear. Package management is my first question.
        
         | marcan_42 wrote:
         | That's what almost every project advertising it is free of non-
         | free stuff is: some other project with the non-free parts
         | removed, nothing more. Trisquel (Ubuntu), linux-libre (linux),
         | libreboot (coreboot), etc. When your sole selling point is lack
         | of non-free stuff, there is no need to invest time adding
         | anything else.
         | 
         | E.g. linux-libre is just a big script that removes the nonfree
         | parts and firmware support; they just run it against every
         | kernel release with minor tweaks and that's their new release.
         | libreboot is similar.
        
           | crazypython wrote:
           | What about osboot, the new project by the libreboot author?
        
             | marcan_42 wrote:
             | osboot is much more pragmatic, since it doesn't try to be
             | 100% free of blobs but rather chooses platform support over
             | that. AIUI it is partially a response to just how utterly
             | useless libreboot had become (it can't support any recent
             | platform).
        
       | elagost wrote:
       | Trisquel is based on Ubuntu like other operating systems (Linux
       | Mint, Pop!_OS, Zorin OS, etc.) but they do something unique -
       | they rebuild the Ubuntu packages from source, instead of just
       | including the Ubuntu repos in their software sources.
       | 
       | Trisquel is quite a usable distro for laptops that are 3-4 years
       | old if you have an appropriate wireless card - Atheros 9xxx
       | series cards tend to work well as the ath9k driver is FOSS.
       | That's really the only blocker most people encounter. Why run
       | this over Debian Stable (without adding "non-free" sources) I
       | couldn't tell you. Debian tends to be more up to date than
       | Trisquel since it's usually based on the previous Ubuntu LTS.
        
         | ploxiln wrote:
         | > Debian tends to be more up to date than Trisquel since it's
         | usually based on the previous Ubuntu LTS.
         | 
         | Agreed with most of what you wrote, except this last bit ...
         | it's a funny way to put it :)
         | 
         | Ubuntu is based on Debian, it "forks" from Debian "unstable"
         | aka "sid" every 6 months (with a fair amount of additions and
         | modifications). Debian stable is released roughly every 18 to
         | 22 months, so it has similar age, on average, of Ubuntu LTS
         | (uniformly every 24 months). But sometimes it's a year newer,
         | sometimes a year older, etc.
        
           | brnt wrote:
           | I think they meant that Trisquels current release tends to be
           | based on the previous Ubuntu LTS.
        
             | ploxiln wrote:
             | Ahhh that makes sense
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | mrtweetyhack wrote:
        
       | sdfjkl wrote:
       | Why Trisquel?
       | 
       | > entirely free software
       | 
       | > teach users to value and protect their freedom
       | 
       | > no binary-only firmware for wireless cards or proprietary
       | drivers for AMD/ATI and NVIDIA graphics cards are included
        
         | gjsman-1000 wrote:
         | Trisquel is an FSF project so there is absolutely nothing
         | proprietary in it (including the kernel which is stripped of
         | proprietary drivers).
         | 
         | Which of course is ideologically great but makes real-world
         | hardware support nightmarish.
        
         | lovelyviking wrote:
         | Do they have version that doesn't mimic windows? I do
         | understand that it is intended to take on board as many former
         | windows users as possible but honestly some people including me
         | are getting sick just by looking at something that even
         | slightly reminds it ... I wish the project the best, please
         | understand.
        
           | yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
           | How are they mimicking Windows? They've got a task bar
           | (loosely), a start button (ish), and the traditional floating
           | windows with a title bar that has buttons on it, but beyond
           | that I'm not seeing any real similarities? Even then: The
           | application menu is an actual menu unlike what Windows has
           | had since... XP? The panel has launchers and open windows,
           | but they're separate sections unlike Windows. I guess I'm
           | just not sure what you're seeing that so reminds you of
           | Windows.
        
           | lovelyviking wrote:
           | For unreasonable downvoters let me explain that windows
           | interface is not only aesthetically disgusting it is
           | absolutely uncomfortable and not logically consistent
           | therefore should be avoided as much as possible in my
           | opinion. Familiarity is not everything.
           | 
           | When you deal with software you kind of communicating with
           | the imaginary one who build it. So when I am forced to use
           | windows even for a moment I have the constant annoying
           | impression that I am dealing with some one crazy who can
           | through things in random places without logic or with logic
           | that is changing from one part to another randomly. I simply
           | can't stand it and I know there are other people who can't
           | stand it too.
           | 
           | And please do not think I am saying it without knowing how
           | perfectly and logically windows is organized. I worked with
           | it and programmed it for 10 years. It was a perfect school
           | called "How not to do things".
        
       | einpoklum wrote:
       | Trisquel's FAQ says:
       | 
       | > _Why should I use Trisquel instead of one of the better-known
       | distributions?_
       | 
       | > There are literally hundreds of GNU/Linux distributions
       | designed to fill every conceivable niche. Only a handful of them
       | are entirely free software; Trisquel is one such distribution.
       | 
       | ... but I disagree. Trisquel is based on ubuntu, and uses
       | systemd. Not just as some optional init system you can remove -
       | it's deeply dependent on systemd. And while systemd's license is
       | free, may find it tends to suppress aspects of free software
       | development by taking over and enclosing more and more system
       | functionality.
       | 
       | If Trisquel were to dump systemd, I would seriously consider
       | using it. My personal choice these days is Devuan
       | (https://devuan.org/), the systemd-free variant of Debian., and I
       | suggest you consider using it without the non-free components,
       | instead of Trisquel.
        
       | srvmshr wrote:
       | Since it runs on Linux-libre, there is a good chance several
       | devices/peripherals will fail to perform as intended. If the idea
       | is to have a toy distro (working as a VM) to explore around, it's
       | looking great. But I don't see why it will gain traction for real
       | use case.
        
         | disadvantage wrote:
         | > there is a good chance several devices/peripherals will fail
         | to perform as intended
         | 
         | For the record, I use Trisquel and it didn't recognize my wifi
         | adapter. I went to the forums and someone said you need special
         | libre wifi adapters that work with Linux. However, my internal
         | network adapter worked fine. It plays well with most ethernet
         | adapters thankfully.
        
           | marcan_42 wrote:
           | The vast majority of WiFi adapters work fine with Linux and
           | linux-firmware. You only need special "libre"
           | ("firmwareless"*) WiFi adapters if you want them to work with
           | linux-libre and distros that use it like this one, since it
           | cripples support for anything that requires firmware.
           | 
           | * Most "firmwareless" devices have firmware ROMs anyway. The
           | FSF only believe it counts as nonfree if the users can see
           | the firmware in /lib/firmware; they are happy to endorse
           | products with hundreds of kilobytes of nonfree firmware ROM
           | as "respects your freedom", since users can't see the blobs.
        
             | not2b wrote:
             | Yes, the FSF thinks a device becomes more free if you
             | destroy the ability to update the software that runs on it.
             | 
             | WiFi presents a particular problem for free software
             | because to sell a product that emits radio waves, it has to
             | be certified (by the FCC or other national authorities),
             | and they won't certify something that could be trivially
             | reprogrammed to exceed legal power limitations or broadcast
             | outside licensed frequencies. It's easiest for them if the
             | user can't change those details at all.
        
         | _jal wrote:
         | Think of it as a reference implementation that, in a perfect
         | world, hardware vendors would proudly target.
        
           | srvmshr wrote:
           | Hardware manufacturers can ideologically target the libre
           | flavor, but in practice it is next to impossible to deliver.
           | Drivers are built to address specific hardware features. As
           | features grow, so do system complexities and software calls.
           | Every OEM addresses a feature in a specific problem-solving
           | paradigm. Trying to unify most hardware under a standard set
           | of function & procedure calls cannot be fathomed.
           | 
           | A real world analogy is to make shoes of a single size and
           | color & expect every person in the world can use it
           | comfortably irrespective of their size or body type.
        
             | SahAssar wrote:
             | This distro still has drivers, it just requires those to be
             | libre too. Every linux driver written (and also
             | firmware/microcode) could be included, but that would
             | require those to also be licensed as libre. It does not
             | have any more technical restrictions, only legal and
             | licensing ones.
        
             | yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
             | I don't follow; linux-libre still has drivers; nobody's
             | saying you can't write per-device drivers, just that the
             | whole of the code to run it should be FOSS.
        
         | marcan_42 wrote:
         | Reminder that linux-libre also removes _warnings_ in the kernel
         | that you 're running outdated CPU microcode, because the FSF
         | doesn't believe users should be informed about updates (some of
         | which are security critical) to proprietary software they are
         | already running anyway.
         | 
         | Make of that what you will.
        
           | sporedro wrote:
           | I get where they're coming from, but this just sounds insane.
           | If there were FOSS CPU microcode that could replace it or
           | something and they only wanted to support that than fine, but
           | if there's no FOSS option why create security risks for
           | users?
           | 
           | I love the FOSS community, but sometimes their rationale is a
           | bit too extreme for the average person to get behind.
        
             | gjsman-1000 wrote:
             | "is a bit too extreme"
             | 
             | Understatement of the year. You are a dev who wants to make
             | some money on the side and keeps her software proprietary
             | because monetizing open-source is a rare exception than the
             | rule? F!@# her and her lack of ethics! And don't touch her
             | software, or her, with a 10 foot pole, let alone pay for
             | it!
             | 
             | Oh, there's a proprietary firmware blob that this device
             | requires, but it runs off onboard flash so the OS doesn't
             | see it? Perfectly fine! If the OS doesn't see it, see no
             | evil, speak no evil, there is no evil.
             | 
             | The FSF are the Puritans of the 21st century. Both in
             | extremity and hypocrisy.
        
               | Mc91 wrote:
               | > Puritans of the 21st century. Both in extremity
               | 
               | For work I run MacOS, because they assigned me a Macbook
               | and pay me to do so. Currently I program Android, which
               | has a free software system somewhere under there,
               | although there are unfree layers on top, which have been
               | discussed to death.
               | 
               | I also personally use Ubuntu for my desktop and laptop.
               | Years ago I put Gnewsense as a boot-up option for a
               | machine.
               | 
               | For different tasks I use different levels of proprietary
               | or free software. I don't see my installing of Gnewsense
               | as puritanical or extreme (me wanting full control of my
               | OS is puritanical and extreme?), just as I don't see me
               | using the proprietary MacOS as puritanical and extreme.
               | If me being able to control my own operating system is
               | puritanical and extreme, then what do you call having
               | someone else being able to control my operating system?
               | 
               | There may be free extremists but that means there are
               | proprietary extremists as well.
        
               | quadrangle wrote:
               | What a reactive, defensive attitude.
               | 
               | Just try applying everything you wrote to the topic of
               | being vegetarian. Vegetarians are _indeed_ arguing
               | against meat-eating, and you could talk about how you are
               | just some pig farmer selling meat on the side, and the
               | vegetarians are saying  "F You!"
               | 
               | And then there's the practical problems with whether
               | animal products are identified in various food
               | products...
               | 
               | And people get super defensive about that stuff too. But
               | this desire to reject the FSF or the vegetarians and call
               | them extremists and hypocrites amounts to an emotional
               | refusal to engage fairly with any of the actual issues or
               | even what the people are actually saying or doing.
        
               | gjsman-1000 wrote:
               | Nothing I said was not true.
               | 
               | The FSF encourages all members to shun proprietary
               | software of any kind - which is why we have Linux-Libre
               | and Trisquel.
               | 
               | Even though, to put it simply, monetizing open source is
               | very rare and the FSF looks down on people (including
               | solo programmers) with the gall to keep their software
               | proprietary.
               | 
               | The FSF is also a complete hypocrite when it comes to
               | firmware. Proprietary firmware which the OS can't see
               | (because it is loaded from onboard flash) is compliant
               | with their "Respects Your Freedom" hardware
               | certification, which is asinine and actively reduces my
               | freedom to reverse-engineer that firmware or replace it
               | with an open driver.
               | 
               | According to FSF logic, a solo programmer making
               | proprietary software for money is to be shunned. A device
               | with an embedded proprietary blob could be certified as
               | freedom-respecting and tolerable. That's retarded.
        
               | quadrangle wrote:
               | There are vegans who encourage shunning animal products.
               | And yes, there are critiques of people with the "gall" to
               | eat meat. Those facts don't mean they are wrong. That's a
               | matter of engaging with the actual arguments.
               | 
               | To say the RYF certifcation is hypocritical is a
               | misunderstanding. They drew a line for certification that
               | _isn 't_ 100% puritanical. They aren't absolutely
               | impractical. They don't say that your points about
               | firmware don't matter, they just wanted a line that could
               | be practical for the certification.
               | 
               | I recognize your point, but your language and judgments
               | are out of line. The FSF argues that embedded blobs that
               | are completely unchangeable by anyone are similar to
               | hardware. Now, I happen to agree with you that the lack
               | of freedom is still a problem. But the distinction they
               | make isn't totally illogical.
               | 
               | Vegan movements can be extreme too, and you can criticize
               | them. But the level of animosity and defensiveness people
               | get into shows that people are really sensitive about
               | these things. It's as though they recognize that there
               | might really be some fundamental issues with proprietary
               | software or with meat, and the existence of the anti-
               | proprietary or anti-meat views cuts people to the core. I
               | mean, it's one thing to simply disagree, but it says a
               | lot more when people are SO emotional about it.
        
               | Barrin92 wrote:
               | the same thing applies to vegetarians. Smart and
               | effective vegetarians who want to promote vegetarianism
               | don't fill a balloon with red paint and throw it at
               | someone while screaming 'meat is murder!', they convince
               | people to cut down their consumption, promote
               | alternatives that ordinary people can deal with, and as a
               | result get 50% of what they want to a hundred times as
               | many people, which is more than 100% of nothing.
               | 
               | That's the difference between ideologues and people who
               | actually care about the values they promote rather than
               | people who aggrandize themselves.
        
               | quadrangle wrote:
               | The analogy works because 99.9% of vegetarians don't even
               | use words to directly tell others that they are
               | unethical, they just assert their OWN vegetarianism as an
               | ethical decision, and others go bonkers as though this is
               | the most grotesque personal attack. This all happens
               | without any red-paint-balloons or other extremist stuff.
               | 
               | In other words, when someone comes along and says what
               | amounts to "for ethical reasons, I behave differently
               | than you", people interpret it (understandably but
               | unreasonably) as saying "you are an unethical person"
               | (whereas the responsible reaction is, "hmm, maybe there's
               | an ethical issue here that I should consider that I
               | haven't yet"). Then, people focus all their attention on
               | rationalizations to reject the other person, such as
               | calling them "ideologues".
               | 
               | The Trisquel website doesn't say, "if you use or make
               | proprietary software, you are evil". People react to the
               | subtle implications as if that's what it said though.
               | Maybe that's because people don't want to admit that they
               | actually _do_ act in ways that are ethical compromises?
        
               | yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
               | > Smart and effective vegetarians who want to promote
               | vegetarianism don't fill a balloon with red paint and
               | throw it at someone while screaming 'meat is murder!'
               | 
               | Are the GNU/FSF folks doing that? The most I'm aware of
               | is strongly-worded blog posts, which is rather short of
               | physical ... outbursts.
        
               | mustache_kimono wrote:
               | This shouldn't be downvoted. It's an opinion that is
               | unpopular here, but which needs to be stated
               | occasionally. The FSF _is_ extreme, and, right now, not
               | 10-20 years ago, but right now, the FSF and Stallman are
               | negative assets for FOSS.
        
               | bogwog wrote:
               | How is it "extreme"? The point of the FSF is to foster
               | and support free software. Supporting non-free software
               | is literally the opposite of their mission.
               | 
               | The guy you replied to is being childish and
               | exaggerating. The FSF isn't some extremist organization
               | out to destroy people who dare to write or use closed
               | source software.
               | 
               | Do they refuse to include proprietary software in their
               | distributions/projects? Obviously.
               | 
               | Are they going to tell you to go fuck yourself because
               | you refuse to release the source code to your app?
               | Probably not (I guess if you're an asshole about it,
               | someone might)
               | 
               | > the FSF and Stallman are negative assets for FOSS
               | 
               | The FSF and Stallman are the _only_ assets for FOSS. Who
               | else is supporting free software?
        
               | kube-system wrote:
               | > The FSF and Stallman are the only assets for FOSS.
               | 
               | The FSF doesn't even support the use of the term "FOSS".
               | 
               | They support the idea of libre software. The broader
               | "open source" community is much larger than the FSF or
               | RMS.
               | 
               | The GPL is the _third_ most popular FOSS license.
        
               | mustache_kimono wrote:
               | I think you may have too rosy a view of the FSF. Step
               | back and think about what the FSF has done for FOSS in
               | the last 10 years. When people say "I don't want to get
               | into a licensing debate" who do you think they are
               | talking about?
               | 
               | > Are they going to tell you to go fuck yourself because
               | you refuse to release the source code to your app?
               | Probably not (I guess if you're an asshole about it,
               | someone might)
               | 
               | I can cite an example of where someone from the FSF has
               | hassled an FOSS project that refused to modify their
               | license to the GPL, and instead chose MIT. I'd prefer not
               | link here, because I don't want the maintainers to be
               | inundated with further (BS) requests. I'd say that's
               | extreme. What's worse is it's off-putting (to me, at the
               | very least).
               | 
               | > The FSF and Stallman are the only assets for FOSS. Who
               | else is supporting free software?
               | 
               | Um, literally all the people writing FOSS? Mozilla,
               | IBM/Redhat, Google?
        
               | tomcooks wrote:
               | How else other than by being radical do you expect not to
               | lose ground?
        
               | mustache_kimono wrote:
               | This is just such an exceedingly weird opinion.
               | "Permanent revolution" sounds very romantic, but real
               | people want to stop and lives their lives, as well.
               | 
               | Once you've convinced the broader industry of the
               | benefits of FOSS, I'm not sure everyone has to be a
               | radical anymore. I think GPL advocates/FSF/Stallman's
               | time might be better spent finding a way to _pay_ FOSS
               | developers.
        
               | widespace_ wrote:
               | >Understatement of the year. You are a dev who wants to
               | make some money on the side and keeps her software
               | proprietary because monetizing open-source is a rare
               | exception than the rule? F!@# her and her lack of ethics!
               | And don't touch her software, or her, with a 10 foot
               | pole, let alone pay for it!
               | 
               | Are you asking for the _free_ software foundation to
               | support _proprietary_ software?
        
               | MaxBarraclough wrote:
               | I think that's just the point here: yes, strictly
               | speaking they are, but practically speaking the
               | alternative is to put the user's cybersecurity at risk.
               | 
               | If you ask just about any user, they will say they
               | prioritise their cybersecurity over the purity of their
               | Free Software stack. The FSF seemingly disagree. That
               | disagreement is an important one.
        
               | Ygg2 wrote:
               | I don't know. You can spin a lot of stuff as cyber
               | security.
               | 
               | Hosting all stuff in cloud does prevent getting locked by
               | some ransom ware.
               | 
               | Plus security isn't an absolute. A determined enough
               | actor could always hack you.
        
           | adffadsfdd wrote:
           | > Reminder that linux-libre also removes warnings in the
           | kernel that you're running outdated CPU microcode,
           | 
           | News to me. Maybe you a few links showing this?
        
           | netizen-936824 wrote:
           | That's a bit concerning. Has anyone written about this
           | somewhere? I'm guessing I'm not the only one who's had their
           | interest piqued considering the large FOSS community here
        
             | marcan_42 wrote:
             | Last time I tried to go into more depth about this one and
             | related policy failings of the FSF and their associated
             | projects here, it predictably descended into a long
             | flamewar with FSF supporters, so I'll pass on it this time.
             | But here's a link:
             | 
             | https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/1377402589386432512?s=20
        
               | netizen-936824 wrote:
               | Thank you! I'm a supporter of the FSF and FOSS but I also
               | think these ideologies have to be taken in consideration
               | with security tradeoffs and current mitigation
               | implementations. Free software is wonderful, but we
               | should be honest about its capability to respond to some
               | security threats like this. I think it would be better to
               | include such warnings, even if it included an extra
               | 'proprietary blob' warning.
        
               | marcan_42 wrote:
               | Agreed. I'm a strong supporter of FOSS, from a pragmatic
               | point of view of how it helps users and gives them more
               | freedom. I do not believe ideological arguments against
               | proprietary software should be used to make technical
               | decisions that limit users' options or keep them
               | uninformed, because the freedom to choose to use
               | proprietary software is also important.
               | 
               | Plus, the current policies of the FSF are completely
               | inconsistent, out of touch with the reality of computing
               | systems today, and based on arbitrary rules that end up
               | reducing user freedom instead of increasing it (e.g. how
               | they promote devices with firmware ROMs - which you do
               | not have the freedom to inspect, modify, or replace with
               | a free version - while deriding devices with firmware RAM
               | and a blob, where you do have those freedoms).
        
               | lovelyviking wrote:
               | >Plus, the current policies of the FSF are completely
               | inconsistent, out of touch with the reality of computing
               | systems today, and based on arbitrary rules that end up
               | reducing user freedom instead of increasing it (e.g. how
               | they promote devices with firmware ROMs - which you do
               | not have the freedom to inspect, modify, or replace with
               | a free version - while deriding devices with firmware RAM
               | and a blob, where you do have those freedoms).
               | 
               | I would agree about inconsistency and say that unless
               | everything is absolutely transparent including microcode
               | and hardware it is not acceptable as freedom respecting
               | solution.
               | 
               | On the other hand isn't FSF do compromise as you wanted
               | when you say: "I do not believe ideological arguments
               | against proprietary software should be used to ... "
        
               | not2b wrote:
               | A consistent approach would forbid any use of Intel, AMD,
               | or ARM processors (proprietary microcode in all of them)
               | as well as any wireless technology (again, proprietary
               | firmware). But the FSF has decided that if they can
               | pretend that any proprietary code is somehow unchangeable
               | hardware, or if not, if they don't tell people how to
               | change it or if they even encourage vendors to prevent
               | changing it, this somehow supports freedom.
        
               | ece wrote:
               | Or they're incentivizing firmware-less or open-firmware
               | devices, while drawing a line where people can still
               | choose certain devices that meet their purpose.
        
               | marcan_42 wrote:
               | But they aren't doing that; their Respects Your Freedom
               | program is chock full of devices that run giant firmware
               | blobs, which they conveniently ignore as long as they're
               | on-device and not loaded from /lib/firmware, because as
               | long as nobody notices they can keep believing they're
               | living a blob-free life...
               | 
               | Things the FSF has _explicitly_ incentivized:
               | 
               | - Moving firmware blobs from an obvious, inspectable
               | place in the OS or bootloder to obscure firmware ROMs or
               | Flash chips read by a convoluted process involving
               | multiple CPUs, because somehow doing the latter makes it
               | freedom-respecting? (Librem 5 story)
               | 
               | - Physically destroying optional hardware that currently
               | cannot be used without blobs, so users are not tempted to
               | use those blobs, regardless of whether free alternatives
               | might appear in the future (spoiler alert: they did)
               | (Stallman trying to get bunnie to permanently disable the
               | GPU in the Novena free hardware/software laptop to get
               | certified).
        
               | ece wrote:
               | Yeah, that makes little sense. Ideally you would want to
               | point users to documented hardware, running QMK, or other
               | (potentially reversed engineered) open-firmware.
        
               | marcan_42 wrote:
               | > unless everything is absolutely transparent including
               | microcode and hardware it is not acceptable as freedom
               | respecting solution.
               | 
               | Where do you draw the line?
               | 
               | Is it sufficient if all code executing on a Turing-
               | complete CPU is open? Does the CPU itself need to be open
               | RTL? What about the synthesis process to turn that into a
               | netlist and then into a chip design, does that need to be
               | open? What about the standard cell library from the chip
               | foundry, does that need to be open? Then what about the
               | actual foundry process - do you need documentation on how
               | the chips are produced? What about all the raw materials?
               | What about the machines used to make the chips?
               | 
               | You can keep going down the rabbit hole as deep as you
               | want, but things will never be completely free. And you
               | can't try to draw a random line, because the boundary
               | between these steps isn't clear and that encourages
               | cheating (which is what the FSF do).
               | 
               | Freedom isn't the answer. Freedom was a noble idea from
               | the computing paradigm of the 80s that just doesn't work
               | any more as an absolute goal.
               | 
               | The answer is to look beyond freedom and beyond
               | meaningless absolutes, and towards what people _get_ out
               | of things being open. A device with more open source
               | components is better because users have the freedom to
               | modify them, and they are easier to audit to find
               | security vulnerabilities. A device which sandboxes blobs
               | - whether open or not - such that they cannot take over
               | the system is better than one which does not. A device
               | with proprietary firmware that you can _modify_ and
               | _replace_ is better than one with signed firmware that
               | you cannot. A device with signed firmware you can at
               | least _inspect_ is better than one with encrypted
               | firmware you can 't even see. A device with a firmware
               | ROM you can't inspect or modify is worse than a device
               | with signed and encrypted firmware blobs, because at
               | least with the latter you can verify that the version
               | you're running is what you expect, while you can't read
               | the ROM at all. A device with encrypted firmware that
               | only runs on boot and then is demonstrably out of the
               | picture after that is better than one with privileged,
               | resident blobs that continue running. A device with
               | proprietary firmware that is at least redistributable to
               | end-users of free OSes is better than one where it isn't.
               | A device where it is reasonably easy to have end-users
               | fetch said firmware even if it isn't redistributable is
               | better than one where that is impractical. A device with
               | mandatory _user-controllable_ secure boot is better in
               | some ways than a device with no secure boot at all, and
               | worse in others.
               | 
               | Nuance matters. Absolutist positions don't work any more.
        
         | 7thaccount wrote:
         | I got into Trisquel briefly about a decade ago. I first noticed
         | that YouTube wouldn't work. You could download some packages
         | from the debian repository to get that working, but because
         | that isn't free software, nobody would explain how. Instead
         | they'd just lecture you on free software. I get it, but at the
         | same time it makes your computer unusable for a lot of things.
         | It's a hard line to tread.
        
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