[HN Gopher] Water drinking acutely improves orthostatic toleranc...
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Water drinking acutely improves orthostatic tolerance in healthy
subjects (2002)
Author : pizza
Score : 105 points
Date : 2021-12-23 10:28 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
(TXT) w3m dump (pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
| vstm wrote:
| It's the study that laid the groundwork for /r/hydrohomies
| GoodOldNe wrote:
| Cold water helps even more!
|
| Fun thing to find on HN. I just cited this study in a
| presentation given to our local paramedics on syncope / passing
| out.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| During intermittent fasting, an hour after my morning coffee,
| sometimes I set a recurring hour timer and drink a full water
| bottle on the hour. After about the fourth or fifth hour I get
| this really interesting sense of being hyper alert/awake.
|
| It's essentially the opposite of how I felt when I used to eat
| lunch and would get tired/slow.
|
| This is more doable during WFH since I wouldn't get noticed going
| to the restroom so often...
| jmnicolas wrote:
| A lot of water is probably not a good thing while fasting.
|
| The easiest fasts I ever done were dry fasts. The hardest was
| with a lot of water.
|
| However since I got a kidney stone after dry fasting (I have no
| 100% proof it's correlated but it was close to a fast and it
| never happened before or after) I now drink a little bit of
| water while fasting (something like 300 ml per day, I do
| several days fasts, not intermittent).
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| It's not intense fasting, just the 'only eat from 5-9pm'
| daily type. I definitely feel better drinking water than not
| though, so it may vary by body type.
| LiquidPolymer wrote:
| My doctor told me kidney stones are very closely associated
| with mild dehydration. I've upped my water consumption and
| never had another (yet).
| entropie wrote:
| Water is almost never bad for you, except in very large
| amounts.
|
| You absolutely need to drink more water/tea than usual while
| fasting and this is pretty much recommended at least by most
| professionals is the survival sector (probably by more, but
| in this case I know for sure). Especially if you need to get
| things done; while having no food drinking is even more
| important.
| ford_o wrote:
| I have never heard of dry fasting. It sounds pretty
| dangerous.
| bobthechef wrote:
| "ingested 500 mL and 50 mL of mineral water "
|
| Try drinking water with a bit of salt dissolved in it (sole water
| some call it), best prepared using rock or sea salt which is
| richer in minerals than refined tabled salt. (The categorical
| fear of sodium is very simplistic; it's the ratio of water to
| sodium that matters.) Distilled water can flush electrolytes from
| your body which is not what you want.
| spuz wrote:
| Do people actually drink distilled water? If you want to
| increase your water consumption, I believe unadulterated tap
| water will contain sufficient electrolytes. No need to
| complicate your life by supplementing with additional salt.
| Obviously, drinking too much tap water _will_ deplete the
| electrolytes in your blood but it 's probably still wise for
| more people to drink a little more water than they already do
| even if it doesn't have the perfect salt balance.
| hammock wrote:
| Yes, adding to the existing comment, all water I use in the
| kitchen for internal consumption comes from either an RO
| filtered tap or a water filter pitcher, both of which remove
| electrolytes. The purpose of this is to avoid lead and other
| contaminants.
| dade_ wrote:
| Many cities, such as Toronto where I live, still have lead
| pipes for drinking water. The levels are extremely low, and
| they have various additives in the water supply to minimize
| risk, but the safe level of lead consumption is zero. So
| yeah, I drink distilled water. It's also handy to have
| distilled water around for various uses, such as steam irons.
|
| There are many sources of electrolytes, bananas, our endless
| array of processed food, salt, etc. I can't imagine anyone in
| North America needs to worry about their electrolytes, beyond
| those that do anyway due to medical issues or due to
| strenuous physical activity.
|
| Our lackadaisical attitude toward pollutants in our drinking
| water, especially lead never ceases to amaze me. Though we
| shouldn't be dumping such large amounts of a pollutant in our
| waterways, it is wild to see the traction fluoride gets with
| the paranoid.
| podgaj wrote:
| >Distilled water can flush electrolytes from your body which is
| not what you want.
|
| This could be a good thing, like for people with hyperkalemia
| and hypernatremia. Distilled water is usually given to patients
| with hypernatremia.
|
| https://aspenjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.117...
|
| It is always best to know your body chemistry before listing to
| such blanket advice. (I suffer mild hyperkalemia and
| hypernatremia which is why I know this.)
| abrowne wrote:
| Note that in the US, all salt can be labeled "sea salt". Other
| places, like Canada, mined salt can't be.
| cloudcalvin wrote:
| Use Sodium Bicarbonate or Potassium Bicarbonate instead, it
| helps as antiacid as well
| TheBlerch wrote:
| For any person consuming a healthy balanced diet, how would
| distilled water flush electrolytes from their system? Their
| food would be providing them with plenty electrolytes, such as
| sodium, potassium, etc. Electrolyte supplements are unnecessary
| for all but more intense longer endurance exercise (same for
| energy bars). RO (reverse osmosis) water filtration systems are
| best in class - far better at removing contaminants than
| pitcher filters - some RO models have a calcium cartridge which
| is purely meant to improve taste, not save anyone from
| electrolyte flushing.
| l33tbro wrote:
| Do RO water systems still waste the vast majority of what
| comes out of the tap? I've wanted to get one, but they seem a
| bit environmentally gnarly.
| lathyrus_long wrote:
| The usual cheap RO systems operate from household water
| pressure only. They fill a pressure tank at the output,
| allowing the purified water to be dispensed from a faucet.
| The pressure across the membrane is that input pressure
| minus the tank pressure. That's relatively low, so the
| efficiency is poor, wasting perhaps four gallons for every
| gallon of pure water.
|
| You can improve the efficiency with an electric booster
| pump, or with a "permeate pump" that recovers energy from
| the exiting waste water, or by simply filling a pitcher
| with no pressure tank. I'd expect that even the most
| wasteful systems are still a small share of a typical
| household's total water consumption though, assuming
| they're used only for drinking and cooking water.
| ta988 wrote:
| I can confirm that, always had issues of orthostatic hypotension.
| On days with too much coffee and not enough water it comes back
| (not as bad as it was when I was a kid though)
| fredley wrote:
| Orthostatic tolerance, I think, means your ability to stand up
| without passing out. Basically drinking water means that markers
| of othostatic intolerance improve dramatically in healthy
| subjects.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthostatic_intolerance
| davelacy wrote:
| Interesting conclusion... though I wish I didn't have to go
| down a rabbit hole to understand orthostatic tolerance I saw
| your comment too late but it's appreciated!
|
| It's too bad this couldn't be briefly explained in the abstract
| by the researchers. Such small efforts go a long way in making
| research findings more easily understood to the general public.
| Overly highfalutin abstracts are a bit annoying
| Ensorceled wrote:
| > It's too bad this couldn't be briefly explained in the
| abstract by the researchers.
|
| Where would you stop? It's a medical abstract that is full of
| terms and phrases that, for instance, my parents wouldn't
| understand. How long would this abstract be if aimed at a
| Grade 10 reading level?
|
| I counted at least 15 medical, diagnostic or clinical trial
| terms that would need to be explained to the average person,
| but would be the correct and concise terminology for a
| practitioner in the field.
|
| "Orthostatic symptoms and syncope", "severe autonomic
| dysfunction", "randomized, controlled, crossover fashion",
| "brachial blood pressure", "thoracic impedance", "blood flow
| velocity", "brachial artery", "middle cerebral artery",
| "presyncope", "supine mean blood pressure", "(P<0.01)",
| "stroke volume", "Cerebral blood flow regulation", "acute
| hemodynamic response", "cerebrovascular regulation"
| furyg3 wrote:
| On the one hand, I think you're right, it's more the job of
| science journalists to summarize scientific literature and
| communicate its significance based on research methods and
| potential impact.
|
| At the same time, this goes wrong so often that you could
| make an argument for a 'plain English' summary of an
| article to help facilitate both journalists and the
| curious.
|
| Presumably researchers explain their research to non-
| experts all the time, so this is not some unbelievable
| request.
| Ensorceled wrote:
| I guess I kind of feel like we are barging into a
| conversation between scientists and doctors and demanding
| that they write down to our level because we are
| "curious" and someone linked to it from HN.
|
| I would expect a journalist writing about this kind of
| article to actually be able to understand the abstract,
| at a minimum, or they shouldn't be writing about this.
|
| I know I'd be annoyed if a bunch of doctors started
| reviewing my architecture documents and criticized me for
| not explaining s3 or etl or snowflake or redshift.
| austinjp wrote:
| Some publishers do indeed try to provide a plain-language
| summary where possible. See Cochrane reviews, for example
| this one:
|
| https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858
| .CD...
| gumby wrote:
| Where this required (package labeling on OTC medications,
| for example) the FDA requires that it be written at a fifth
| grade level.
|
| OTOH the so-called "label" (package insert) is written for
| doctors and pharmacists.
|
| I would hate it if I had to break out words like "page
| table", "TLB", "pointer swizzle", etc when writing a paper.
| I have to assume the reader has some basic knowledge of the
| topic at hand else they are unlikely to understand what I'm
| talking about anyway.
|
| You see this in the uproar over "Critical Race Theory" or a
| lot of the Covid misinformation sites: the basics are not
| misunderstood or ignored so the argument goes in strange
| and incomprehensible directions. The problem is deeper than
| a little vocabulary.
| anoncow wrote:
| Leaflets meant for patients are to be written in lay
| language. Prescribing information meant for physicians
| aren't. I would consider scientific literature to be the
| same as prescribing information as they are aimed at the
| scientific community and not the lay public. Science
| journalists perhaps are meant to fill the gap here.
| gumby wrote:
| Indeed but the origin of this thread was someone
| complaining that abstracts of technical papers aren't
| written in language that anyone could understand.
| drnonsense42 wrote:
| The entire purpose of an abstract is for fellow experts in
| the field to grok the paper quickly, not for the general
| public to get a hand-wavy interpretation of jargon.
|
| And quite frankly, absurd practicalities aside, there is a
| lot of harm in having every paper accessible to all. There's
| a wide divide between papers that have been accepted to a
| venue vs. important theory that has been debated and accepted
| by a scientific community and is worth presenting to the
| general public. And, the general public certainly cannot tell
| the difference.
| nautilius wrote:
| I had to look up 'highfalutin' to understand your comment on
| a general message board.
| cik2e wrote:
| I'm susceptible to dizzy spells upon standing myself. Not sure
| if this is an issue of orthostatic tolerance or something else.
| I did a little research a while back and read that this is
| associated with significantly higher all-cause mortality. Yay
| for me.
|
| I do drink plenty of water, maybe too much even, am in good
| shape, and have no medical conditions of any kind. Weed greatly
| exacerbates this issue for me, probably from the fact that it
| reduces blood pressure, but this can still happen when I'm not
| smoking for extended periods.
|
| Recently, I figured out a way to short circuit the onset of a
| dizzy spell. Hyperventilating completely nips this in the bud,
| likely because it increases blood pressure [1]. I'd recommend
| trying this technique to anyone that's otherwise healthy (I am
| not a doctor) and coping with this issue.
|
| [1]
| https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/01.HYP.00000523...
| stefan_ wrote:
| If you are lean and regularly do endurance exercise, it's a
| known phenomenon. It's not of any concern since it won't go
| to the point of passing out, it's just a curious insight into
| the control loop that regulates our blood pressure and
| heartrate and that it's possible to leave the stable area,
| though not to the point of divergence :)
| tomxor wrote:
| I do a lot of climbing, am fairly lean, healthy, and have a
| low resting heart-rate. I've also always had the problem of
| nearing "blackout" occasionally if I stand up very quickly
| from zero physical activity - I've never actually passed
| out, but you have this weird sensation where your vision,
| balance, and in extreme cases even hearing, fades to
| various degrees until the pressure stabilises.
|
| I wondered if it would be a similar effect to what happens
| when a pilot pulls a high-g manoeuvrer.
| md2020 wrote:
| Another technique you can try to cut off the dizziness upon
| standing is flex your abdominal muscles as soon as you feel
| it coming on. Works 100% of the time for me. Probably works
| for the same reason (blood pressure), but easier than
| hyperventilating :)
| lukas099 wrote:
| Yep, the valsalva maneuver against a closed glottis works
| great for this.
| simonswords82 wrote:
| This is the most HN comment ever. Love it. Merry
| Christmas :)
| WillPostForFood wrote:
| _During the Valsalva maneuver (i.e., exhaling against a
| closed glottis or bearing down as though to defecate),
| intrathoracic pressure increases and leads to increased
| arterial pressure as a result of increased afterload. It
| is easily done by having the patient take a deep breath,
| put their thumb in their mouth with closed lips, and
| attempt to exhale without expelling any air._
| c54 wrote:
| Thanks for this suggestion, I have the same experience of
| lightheadedness upon standing up (very often) and will
| definitely be working this into a habit.
| mancerayder wrote:
| That happens to me after 10m in a hot bath.
| foobarian wrote:
| Interesting, I found that hyperventilating is actually pretty
| much guaranteed to cause a fainting for me. The method is to
| sit down as low as feasible, maybe even lie down,
| hyperventilate for about a minute, and then rapidly stand up.
| I used to do this to faint on command until I hurt myself
| falling on a concrete patio. Now I know this effect has a
| name and a possible mitigation, yay!
| MetallicCloud wrote:
| Same thing for me. I used to do it with friends when I was
| a teenager. Until they got the idea I was faking and let me
| hit the deck, expecting me to catch myself.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| Very tangential, but your comment reminded me of this...
|
| I have this weird trick where I can put the back of my
| tongue against the roof of my mouth, and exhale I'm a
| certain way that causes a whistling sound, I think where my
| sinuses reach my throat.
|
| That often makes me light-headed very shortly after for
| some reason.
| Leary wrote:
| I'm young but this happens to me sometimes in the evening when
| I experience caffeine withdrawal.
| kozak wrote:
| Are you sure this is caffeine withdrawal and not a sugar
| crash (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_hypoglycemia)?
| cblconfederate wrote:
| interestingly when people faint they are usually given water
| 01100011 wrote:
| Weird to see this on the front page. I wouldn't think the average
| HN reader would care.
|
| I have occasional orthostatic hypotension. For some reason it
| mostly only happens after I get out of my car. I'll get halfway
| across the parking lot and then it hits. I've never gone down
| from it, but come awfully close. It helps to contract my leg and
| core muscles.
| refurb wrote:
| Random orthostatic tolerance experience. I donated blood, then
| jumped on a flight the next day, didn't drink much then worked
| out after arriving at the hotel.
|
| Suffice to say struggling to see your hotel room number through
| tunnel vision isn't fun.
| chillingeffect wrote:
| next time add in a 15-minute hot tub stay -- - -
|
| it's an orthostatic decathlon!
| yalogin wrote:
| This is very interesting. Even though I know nothing about this
| and had to google what orthostatic means, I wonder how they came
| up with the idea to do this study. Why drinking water? Why not
| roll on the bed for 10 mins before getting up? What prompted them
| to think water drinking would be effective?
| xpe wrote:
| It is interesting to seek out inventors and scientists and ask
| "Do you remember the spark (i.e. an idea or question) that got
| you started?"
|
| The rigor of science is almost always emphasized, because the
| core of the scientific method is empirical validation. Still,
| we should not discount the creative spark that sets it in
| motion. What inspires and motivates people to test an idea? Not
| a small number of scientific theories arise from unexpected
| places -- patterns, connections, metaphors, even dreams.
| crawfordcomeaux wrote:
| Maybe one of them was in marching band and experienced
| difficulty standing at attention for long periods until they
| started drinking water?
|
| Looking back, this was probably something I experienced without
| realizing it.
| giardini wrote:
| Maybe one of them had a Mom:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=29660885&goto=item%3Fi.
| ..
| jmnicolas wrote:
| When I was in the army 23 years ago (ouch!), when there were some
| kind of speeches or other events where we were supposed to stand
| to attention for a long time there always was 1 or 2 guys that
| would pass out.
|
| It was considered normal by the hierarchy. I never understood
| why, and the guys weren't able to explain why neither.
|
| Maybe we should have given them plenty of water (but then they
| would have run the risk of pissing themselves, choices choices :)
| casion wrote:
| Most of the time it's from locking your knees, which reduces
| circulation a surprising amount.
| amelius wrote:
| Can this help jet fighter pilots and F1 drivers?
| inamberclad wrote:
| Wouldn't being dehydrated reduce your blood pressure -> being
| properly hydrated restores blood pressure.
| hashmymustache wrote:
| It's not that simple. Physiology is a very dynamic system so I
| appreciate any corrections. But, basically the venous system
| has a lot of compliance and capacitance holding 70% or so of
| your blood volume in a euvolemic state. You can easily maintain
| blood pressure and arterial volume while dehydrated.
|
| Orthostatics refers to change in blood pressure when standing.
| Every time you stand up you lengthen a large column of blood
| that gravity wants to pull to the bottom of your feet. Pressure
| sensors in your neck (where blood goes to the brain)
| immediately tell the autonomic nervous system about the sudden
| drop which sends a response to increase heart rate and increase
| resistance in the arterial system to maintain output and
| arterial pressure so you don't pass out. To accommodate this
| you pull extra volume from the large venous pool to continue
| optimally filling the heart with each stroke. If your venous
| pool is low, the extra refill volume and venous pressure isn't
| available to keep up with the sudden demand and the arterial
| pressure drops.
|
| We have different medication classes that can selectively slow
| the heart down or decrease blood pressure by preventing
| increased resistance in the arterial system and those folks are
| also at risk of orthostatic hypotension because of blocking
| those compensatory mechanisms.
| srean wrote:
| @pizza I am curious about the context in which you found this
| interesting, given this is a publication from 2002.
|
| Being able to stand for long hours, or being able to stand up
| from a sitting or a supine position (without passing) is a
| difficulty that some in my immediate family has to deal with. The
| 'healthy subject' precondition does limit the scope somewhat.
| Regardless, just from empirical and anecdotal observations,
| enough water and right electrolyte balance does help.
| geek_at wrote:
| I always have the feeling that old research articles like these
| on top of hn are the result of a disagreement between two
| individuals and one is right and rubbing it in in a public
| fashion
| pizza wrote:
| My mom is suffering from a lot of knee pain. Recently we went
| on a long drive and the following day her knees were swollen up
| like canteloupes.. it makes me sad how much she is unable to go
| on her daily walks, or go on hikes with the rest of the family,
| or even struggle to stand up from my couch which is
| particularly low to the ground. So I heard that she might have
| a circulation issue, something I suspect might be a bit wonky
| in myself as well. So last night I just googled "circulation
| changes due to drinking water" as kind of a hail mary and, lo
| and behold, found this
| tshanmu wrote:
| dehyrdation is the root of all bodily problems - Mum was always
| right ;)
| bitwize wrote:
| I thought it was inflammation? Or gut bacteria?
| joejohns wrote:
| I agree, thus the reason to drink water all day.
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