[HN Gopher] This Year in Matrix
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       This Year in Matrix
        
       Author : Arathorn
       Score  : 160 points
       Date   : 2021-12-22 17:12 UTC (5 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (matrix.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (matrix.org)
        
       | onefootincode wrote:
       | This was truly a great year for matrix. Thanks to the whole team
       | for making a dream about decentralized www come true!
       | 
       | But I have a great pain with that bug: https://github.com/vector-
       | im/element-web/issues/469
       | 
       | Everytime I'm fighting with myself to not be sarcastic when
       | speaking about this issue, but I want to say I have hard time
       | believing that Element could we a main communication platform for
       | anyone without this being fixed. It drives me mad, and I have
       | just two people to communicate with!
        
         | Arathorn wrote:
         | Weird; the reason we haven't prioritised it is in that in
         | practice it doesn't seem to be a big problem? You don't get
         | push notifs while you're active in the app itself, and the fact
         | that i get push on my phone while also reading on desktop
         | almost feels like a feature (I often read the msg first via
         | push on phone before then going and hunting on it desktop,
         | especially as Element Web's notification panel needs love).
        
       | beepbooptheory wrote:
       | Really get good vibes from the company, can't quite put my finger
       | on it... Never hearing back from them about a job was a bigger
       | disappointment than usual.
       | 
       | Problems with synapse are true, but it was a good compromise to
       | push out an early implementation so things could get rolling
       | quicker with getting people to actually use the clients.
       | 
       | Just when I get used to some issue/missing feature in the
       | clients, they seem to fix it.
       | 
       | And in general I trust and know that decisions with the spec are
       | being made carefully.
       | 
       | I use it for an intimate chat server with never more than 8
       | users, so I can't speak to some of the problems. I can just say
       | the trajectory itself for Matrix is strong. A good effort to
       | fight slack and discord. Wish all the discord servers people use
       | were matrix instead.
        
         | kevincox wrote:
         | > And in general I trust and know that decisions with the spec
         | are being made carefully.
         | 
         | This is one place where I strongly disagree.
         | 
         | Almost all features have "We will add encryption later" which
         | is _not_ a way to build a secure messenger. Stickers, polls,
         | profiles, spaces, relations, reactions... they all start with
         | and unencrypted version with the promise that  "encryption will
         | come in a later MSC". They should really take "secure" out of
         | the tagline until they actually add E2EE for all of these
         | features. Basically all clients allow users to use these
         | insecure features in encrypted rooms with no warning at all.
         | 
         | And I constantly see hacky quick fixes get accepted because "we
         | need to do something", "no clear use case for $X" (even when
         | there is) and "N other MSCs depend on this so we'll merge it in
         | and deal with a proper solution later". For example the
         | relations MSC just got merged with support for only 1 relation
         | per message even though it is clear that editing replies would
         | be a problem with this system.
         | 
         | I love Matrix and hope it does in fact unify messaging but I
         | think "carefully" is not the way to describe how the spec is
         | progressing. More like "shoved in whatever direction is needed
         | to implement the newest Element feature". Maybe that is for the
         | better, we do need a featureful protocol to get users after
         | all, but personally it irks me the wrong way. Especially when
         | security and privacy are ignored "for later".
        
           | Arathorn wrote:
           | This is a really interesting point. We deliberately built
           | Element to help prove the spec and define its direction
           | (including ensuring it has decent privacy properties), to
           | avoid all the failure modes where folks build a protocol
           | without a real app or product in mind and end up with
           | something which tried to be all things to all people and
           | useful to none.
           | 
           | While I'd have loved us to have infite manpower getting all
           | the security features in from day 1, we had to bootstrap and
           | we prioritised usable apps over optimising for a perfect
           | spec. And judging by some of the rest of the thread, we
           | didn't so well even then; it would have been even worse
           | otherwise.
        
             | kevincox wrote:
             | I think it is helpful to have Element to test out the spec.
             | I think the problem is that the "bar" for accepting
             | features is too low for my taste.
             | 
             | > While I'd have loved us to have infite manpower getting
             | all the security features in from day 1, we had to
             | bootstrap and we prioritised usable apps over optimising
             | for a perfect spec.
             | 
             | I get the decision. But it leaves a sour taste in my mouth
             | that Matrix advertises itself as "secure" but almost any
             | user is leaking sensitive information without knowing. I
             | suspect that 95% of users would be surprised if you told
             | them about the number of things that leak in E2EE rooms.
             | Probably the better approach would have been to skip
             | pushing E2EE as the default, and disable all insecure
             | features in Element for E2EE rooms (or have an explicit
             | opt-in). The marketing team would hate this approach but it
             | least it is honest and safe.
        
               | Arathorn wrote:
               | There isn't a marketing team for Matrix, unless you count
               | me & the dev advocacy team. I actually have another (big)
               | blog post called Metadata And Matrix which attempts to
               | enumerate the privacy properties we have today to try to
               | educate everyone, and how we're improving it in future -
               | will post it shortly. Agreed it could be better, but if
               | you're on your own server you are in a pretty good place.
        
               | twicetwice wrote:
               | I want to voice strong agreement with kevincox. I use an
               | encrypted Matrix room daily and had no idea that
               | reactions, relations (does that mean that edits are in
               | cleartext??), etc are completely unencrypted. I've read a
               | little bit of the spec (though clearly not very much),
               | I've written a bot, I've patched the Element desktop
               | client, I've even been working with a JSON export of my
               | message history and didn't notice--perhaps I should have,
               | but my point is that it's not obvious at all, and users
               | SHOULD be proactively made aware of what's encrypted and
               | what's not.
               | 
               | Sending things unencrypted that users have every reason
               | to think are encrypted is extremely irresponsible. And I
               | assumed, as I think is perfectly reasonable, that
               | everything in an E2EE room is in fact end-to-end
               | encrypted. I'm very disappointed to find out this way
               | that it's not (and won't be for the foreseeable future),
               | and I don't see any justification for failing to making
               | users aware of that.
               | 
               | All that said, I love Matrix, will continue to use it
               | every day, and am hugely rooting for the success of the
               | project. Thanks for all your hard work on it!
        
               | Arathorn wrote:
               | Is it really that surprising that the act of reacting to
               | a message with an emoji isn't E2EE, given the server
               | needs to count the number of reactions? One could encrypt
               | the emoji itself, but it doesn't seem like a massively
               | sensitive datapoint in its own right. (That said, we will
               | encrypt them eventually, but it's just not very high
               | priority given the fact it doesn't practically feel very
               | high impact, relative to all the other things we could be
               | doing to improve Matrix).
        
               | kitkat_new wrote:
               | > relations (does that mean that edits are in
               | cleartext??), etc are completely unencrypted.
               | 
               | The text/content of the edit itself is actually
               | encrypted, you can check in Element by viewing the event
               | in de/encrypted form
        
       | kuon wrote:
       | I tried to adopt matrix for our small business and here is
       | summary of my experience.
       | 
       | - Synapse is very resource hungry even for a small server
       | 
       | - Synapse creates a gazillion of TCP connection and keep them
       | open, it was a real problem for my ISP router (SOHO router for
       | 1gbit/s) and it took a very long time to debug, be sure to limit
       | the number of TCP connection on the server
       | 
       | - Synapse is hard to get a good idea of the health of the server,
       | the federation can break without warning
       | 
       | - If the federation broke for some reason, when submitting
       | messages, they will show as delivered, this was one of the major
       | problem for us
       | 
       | - Encryption is very cumbersome to get right for non technical
       | users, there should be a server wide option to make it "easier
       | but less secure". Even for me, it was hard to get rid of a
       | warning popup about some device error.
       | 
       | - Group VOIP is hard to setup, it should be as easy as discord to
       | be viable.
       | 
       | - Webhook is really hard to setup too, I want to be able to right
       | click a channel and "copy webhook URL" to be able to post to it
       | with CURL (discord has that)
       | 
       | - Globally it is very slow when joining federated rooms, it can
       | take days to sync 500+ people room
       | 
       | In the end we just use discord, it's free and do the job. Of
       | course they can read our messages and this is a problem for me as
       | I am for privacy and encryption, but it works for everybody, it
       | is friendly and easy to use.
       | 
       | I will keep a close eye on matrix and try to adopt it again, but
       | right now it is not usable for us.
        
         | 3np wrote:
         | > federation issues
         | 
         | > gazillion TCP connections
         | 
         | We've been running a Synapse server with quite a bit of
         | federated rooms, even larger ones like you mention. Never
         | noticed a single issue like this that I recall.
         | 
         | I wonder if the reason is that we're doing whitelisting,
         | instead of federation with everyone by default. The
         | whitelisting is quite liberal; I'll add a server as soon as I'm
         | in a conversation thread with someone from that server, or just
         | want to see their avatar. Sometimes when I'm waiting for
         | something else I'll just scroll through a room and add a
         | handful of servers. Essentially this is my proxy for only
         | federation with "legit" servers and avoid being DDoSed.
         | 
         | > there should be a server wide option to make it "easier but
         | less secure"
         | 
         | Disagree. Sure, UX can be improved, but compromising here
         | defeats the purpose of why we're doing this in the first place.
         | 
         | Another one of mine:
         | 
         | - E2EE seems complex to implement and very few of the clients
         | implement it fully and properly.
         | 
         | This is the one point I think needs to be resolved before
         | Matrix can be ready for wider adoption. It's kind of pointless
         | without E2EE, or if Element is the only client that can work
         | for all rooms and messages.
        
           | kuon wrote:
           | I didn't whitelist anything, maybe that was a source for
           | issue.
           | 
           | > Disagree. Sure, UX can be improved, but compromising here
           | defeats the purpose of why we're doing this in the first
           | place.
           | 
           | The thing is, as I ran my own server in my office, SSL (with
           | no E2E) is already a good privacy. And even with that setup,
           | the server users got "harassed" by the UI asking them to sync
           | devices keys.
           | 
           | For many users, a single prompt about security is enough to
           | discourage them.
        
             | CameronNemo wrote:
             | So you are asking for a client setting (in Element I
             | presume) to stop nudging users to set up e2ee? Did you file
             | an issue for that?
        
               | kuon wrote:
               | If I try again to "convert" non technical people around
               | me, I'll try to document properly what is wrong in the UX
               | and experience. (but maybe it will all be fixed)
        
         | IceWreck wrote:
         | Your problems are with synapse. I had a similar experience with
         | it in 2019. Dropped matrix for a while and started using
         | Dendrite in 2020.
         | 
         | It still lacks features compared to synapse but I'm happy with
         | the performance. Notifications are sorely missing but I think
         | the PR to add them is finally ready to merge.
         | 
         | Give it a year or two and you'll have a full featured matrix
         | home server that can run on a raspberry pi.
        
           | blitzar wrote:
           | I believe that is when the Year of the Linux Desktop is
           | scheduled as well.
        
           | italwayslags wrote:
        
         | Arathorn wrote:
         | When was this? I suspect most of the problems here are due to
         | users joining lots of big federated rooms, which will use loads
         | of resources irrespective of how many local users you have.
         | This is also what Fast Joins are trying to improve (at least
         | for join speed) from the original post. Likewise the matrix-
         | hookshot webhook bridge.
        
           | kuon wrote:
           | I discontinued the server 2 months ago, and I operated the
           | server for about 2 years.
        
         | janikvonrotz wrote:
         | Marked as spam.
        
         | teitoklien wrote:
         | Synapse is bloated and mostly good for very large
         | organisations.
         | 
         | Use conduit.rs or dendrite. I use conduit and it takes a couple
         | of MB ram even while I'm in large rooms
        
           | kuon wrote:
           | Last time I checked critical features were not supported,
           | like read receipts.
        
             | teitoklien wrote:
             | I use conduit to run multiple rooms, read receipts have
             | been working just fine.
        
               | kuon wrote:
               | I will give conduit another look if I ever try to setup a
               | server again. I am quite active in the rust community and
               | maybe I could also participate.
        
               | teitoklien wrote:
               | goodluck!
        
         | nisa wrote:
         | I'm running a small (at the beginning it was completely public,
         | now I'm keeping an eye on registrations) homeserver with
         | synapse for a few years - I really like Matrix on a conceptual
         | level and I'm happy that it exists even through it's not
         | perfect it works pretty well mostly. I don't want to be too
         | harsh because it's the best decentralized alternative for chat
         | at the moment and it's open-source and there is a lot of
         | progress but damn' it was a pain in the ass to run that
         | server... we solved our problems mostly with throwing resources
         | and memory on the problem... it's a nice tour de force if you
         | want to learn about debugging distributed systems but it's
         | nothing to install somewhere and just keep running.
         | 
         | synapse is quite a mess and there are a lot of hidden footguns
         | if you just run a server - this is just the tip of iceberg to
         | keep the postgres database somewhat sane:
         | https://levans.fr/shrink-synapse-database.html - lot's of other
         | issues in the issue-tracker where you can just scratch your
         | head.
         | 
         | bridges are all subtly broken - the xmpp bridge is horrible and
         | broke in so much interesting ways that I'm not going to touch
         | it ever again - telegram works okay most of the time, irc-
         | bridge also have some warts - but it's easy to criticize from
         | my chair and probably unfair to talk so negative about it here
         | but it's often buggy and broken for edge-cases - it works most
         | of the time pretty okay but it's quite a mess to get a mental
         | model for the code and so it's difficult to debug things.
         | 
         | moderation/spam/etc.pp is all hackable but not there out of the
         | box - it looks and feels like mostly quickly hacked up nodejs
         | code that at least for us exploded in all kinds of interesting
         | ways. https://github.com/matrix-org/mjolnir writing 3tb of logs
         | in a few day and eating memory like crazy for instance. You
         | have to babysit it and there is no simple ui for anything.
         | 
         | So it's powerful but requires quite a bit of dedication and
         | patience to get right. It's a full blown distributed system and
         | often state is all over the place and once you make a mistake
         | it's difficult to impossible to get that thing do work correct
         | again without starting over.
         | 
         | But there are so much promising projects that I'm confident
         | that these issues will be resolved and it will only get better
         | but in my experience it will break badly on all kinds of edge-
         | cases - the mentioned xmpp-bridge created usernames that can't
         | be deleted via the http api for instance. someone bridged 1000
         | channels via our telegram-bridge and there is no code to remove
         | those channels - you have to code something up in python for
         | yourself. irc bridge kicks you after 30 days idle because they
         | can't handle the connections - freenode (before the takeover)
         | said it's not them - maybe single threaded nodejs is not such a
         | good idea for that.
         | 
         | Could I do it any better and delivering? Probably not. But
         | except some adventure and if you want to deploy it for an org
         | carefully test any assumptions you take for granted. It's cool
         | but it's also kind of quick'n'dirty in a lot of ways. Still
         | better than anything else I'd use it over any megacorp
         | messenger anytime but maybe don't switch your family yet.
         | 
         | But for using it you don't have to care - and there are great
         | projects like https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-
         | ansible-deploy that solve most of the problems out of the box
         | and mobile clients and web clients and E2E crypto also works
         | really well.
        
       | jeroenhd wrote:
       | I've looked into putting Cactus Comments [1] on my website, but I
       | kind of had to can that plan when I found out that it requires
       | the slow and resource hungry Synapse homeserver implementation at
       | this point in time. I was hoping to use Conduit or Dendrite, but
       | those are simply not ready yet.
       | 
       | In my opinion, the biggest problem with the current Matrix
       | platform, especially if you self-host, is the server
       | implementation. It's not buggy, but it's just awfully slow. The
       | "dpt of ping" [2] section at the bottom of the weekly Matrix
       | updates show that five seconds of latency between servers
       | (measured by basic ping bots) is far from uncommon. The latency
       | is still significant in the non-synapse version of the graph, but
       | it's much better already.
       | 
       | With the speed new MSCs are accepted every month I don't think
       | any alternative server stands a chance at catching up to Synapse
       | any time soon, and I don't know how I feel about that. Yes,
       | Matrix is an open platform with an open source spec, but it's
       | effectively impossible to develop an alternative backend
       | implementation with the way development is currently done, unless
       | you've got a lot of developers and money to throw at the
       | platform.
       | 
       | I'll probably look into Conduit again in a few months, hopefully
       | the project will keep up it's impressive pace so that it's useful
       | for my purposes.
       | 
       | [1]: https://cactus.chat/
       | 
       | [2]: https://matrix.org/blog/2021/12/17/this-week-in-
       | matrix-2021-...
        
         | karmanyaahm wrote:
         | I'm running Synapse and Cactus chat on a 1gb memory, 1 vCPU
         | Linode and it's just fine.
         | 
         | Given, I have a small blog (ie low load on cactus), but I'm in
         | many (15+) medium sized (100-1000 members) federated chats and
         | it's just fine on a day to day basis.
         | 
         | There are some limitations tho:
         | 
         | - I can't join large rooms (2000+ members and whatever number
         | of servers that entails on average)
         | 
         | - Initial sync (first time log in on new client) is crazy slow
         | - syncv3 will hopefully fix this
         | 
         | My definition of not being resource hungry is being able to run
         | on a 1gb, 1 vCPU VM - however you and me might have a
         | difference in that opinion
        
           | jeroenhd wrote:
           | I think the initial sync issue is one of the worst problems,
           | because someone joining in to leave a quick comment will be
           | waiting for the system to synchronize. You can run the system
           | on 1GiB/1 vCPU, but that comes with a performance penalty.
           | 
           | My instance of Synapse definitely can't join any matrix.org
           | chatrooms, no matter how hard I try. Even rooms with a few
           | hundred participants are awfully slow and leave scrollback
           | state a broken mess. When I tried to join the main Matrix
           | channel, both of the CPU cores I had dedicated to Synapse
           | were pinned for at least half an hour, even after I tried to
           | cancel joining the room!
           | 
           | I hope sync v3 lives up to the hype, but I'm wary. Synapse's
           | Pythonic base seems ill-fitted for an instant messenger
           | backend in my opinion, and no amount of protocol trickery can
           | work around that.
           | 
           | It's not that I think the 1GiB is necessarily that excessive,
           | but Dendrite and Conduit are blowing Synapse out of the park
           | in terms of performance, to the point that I'd almost rather
           | see the Matrix folks dedicate their development efforts more
           | on bringing Dendrite up to speed than to expanding
           | functionality.
        
             | Arathorn wrote:
             | Well, you can try sync v3 today via sync-v3 proxy (which is
             | written in Go) and Hydrogen, as per the video linked in the
             | post. It solves the initial sync problem completely; it's
             | not hype; it's real.
             | 
             | The main thing that bogs down Synapse is if users join
             | massive federated rooms and you end up replicating huge
             | amounts of traffic onto your server. So we're working on
             | that too via Fast Joins and better-than-full-mesh
             | federation for P2P.
        
             | altantiprocrast wrote:
             | > I think the initial sync issue is one of the worst
             | problems, because someone joining in to leave a quick
             | comment will be waiting for the system to synchronize
             | 
             | The initial sync issue is only a problem for large accounts
             | which have joined many rooms. Cactus comments creates a
             | guest user for non-logged-in commenters, and an empty guest
             | account is pretty much instant to load in my experience.
             | 
             | You can go to my cactus comments instance (running on
             | aforementioned 1gb machine) to test out the speed
             | https://karmanyaah.malhotra.cc/tech/2021/06/website-things/
        
       | trumpablehump wrote:
       | Can I use separate identities in the same Element instance yet?
       | Especially with Spaces I feel like this is an obvious feature
       | where it should be easy for people to protect their privacy by
       | using different accounts for different hobbies or peer groups.
       | 
       | I would love to finally be able to use my employer's chatrooms
       | with my real name, the animal rights group with my one pseudonym
       | and the techie chat with the other one.
        
         | jeroenhd wrote:
         | Fluffychat allows multi-account logins on the same device, if
         | that's what you're looking for. I haven't tested it myself, but
         | it seems similar to the way the Gmail app operates with
         | multiple accounts (you switch over to a new account and get
         | content specifically for that account, rather than mixed rooms
         | from different accounts all in one list).
         | 
         | In practice, though, I'd be impressed if you could even find
         | three different circles that are all on Matrix. I haven't found
         | many people who are willing to switch yet over, anyway.
        
         | mroche wrote:
         | It sounds like you're asking for a Slack style configuration,
         | e.g. where each workspace (in Slack terminology) needs to be
         | authed into and can use different accounts within one app
         | instance?
        
           | kevincox wrote:
           | Slack is a bad example here because you can't really use
           | different accounts at a time (at least on web). It just
           | provides a relatively easy link to switch between them. Maybe
           | app/mobile are better?
           | 
           | But yes, I think OP is asking to be logged into two accounts
           | and see the rooms/contacts/notification from both in the same
           | application. This is not currently supported in Element and I
           | don't think it is on the near roadmap. But some other clients
           | do have multi-account support.
        
         | Arathorn wrote:
         | Not yet. Hopefully one for 2022!
        
           | jeltz wrote:
           | Is there any Matrix to Matrix bridge? Such a bridge should be
           | able to solve the problem short term.
        
       | MayeulC wrote:
       | > nightmarish pain point that is the amount of time we spend
       | implementing the same features across the three different
       | platforms
       | 
       | I've been toying with the idea of providing dynamic extensions to
       | Matrix rooms by sending a WASM payload as an event.
       | 
       | That WASM could then provide new UI elements, interactions,
       | interpret events, etc. This could be used to implement polls (I
       | know it's coming, but that's an example) or whiteboards inside
       | existing clients.
       | 
       | It's just an idea, not sure how it would work in practice... But
       | if anyone wants to have a go at it, be my guest!
        
         | yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
         | That sounds terrifying from a security perspective. I know wasm
         | is sandboxed, but it's in a sandbox with all the user's data
         | and parts of the user interface, which is quite enough to do
         | damage.
        
           | MayeulC wrote:
           | I agree that the attack surface needs to be carefuly thought
           | about. It shoudln't be much harder than current "widgets",
           | though.
           | 
           | I was thinking of something that only does I/O with data
           | contained in the room it's in. I think the UI would be the
           | hard part, but it could be doable with a few HTML tags and an
           | extensible UI.
           | 
           | For instance: add an "insert poll" button, or an "add voice
           | message" button. Or an "add sticker"/emoji/gif, etc.
           | Currently every client needs to build this individually.
           | Users could pick the features they want in their clients.
           | 
           | Moreover, not every plugin needs to be third-party. A
           | "trusted store" could very well be maintained.
        
       | Arathorn wrote:
       | Fun fact: this blog post comes out at 26 pages of A4. If anyone
       | wants assistance digesting it, I can try to help answer stuff
       | here :)
        
         | 2Gkashmiri wrote:
         | android element. why can't we forward a text or a photo or
         | anything? i have to "share" and then select a chat or a room to
         | forward to. any reason for this issue to exist? i personally
         | never joined whatsapp and quit telegram during the last mass
         | exodus to telegram.
        
         | marginalia_nu wrote:
         | It's more like 18 if you remove all the videos and images and
         | various other cruft.
        
           | anchpop wrote:
           | In what way are the images "cruft"?
        
             | marginalia_nu wrote:
             | In the sense that they take almost an entire screen, yet do
             | not convey information comparable to an entire screen's
             | worth of text.
             | 
             | The hex of these types of graphics is that they don't
             | actually say a lot at all beyond "one thing is slightly
             | bigger than the other", or "the thing is a bit faster now".
             | 
             | There are things that are easier to convey with a picture
             | than with words (like the how much bigger the sun is
             | compared to the earth, "really really big" doesn't quite
             | cut it), but this is not such a case.
        
         | MayeulC wrote:
         | typo: minimising battery life on mobile
        
           | Arathorn wrote:
           | fixed, thanks
        
       | slickdork wrote:
       | I've been attempting on and off the last few years to spin up a
       | non federated matrix server in my homelab to make an alternative
       | to discord for my friends. I run into some various issues every
       | time. I'm pretty good at tech, but for whatever reason the
       | barrier to getting a working self hosted matrix server seems too
       | high for me.
       | 
       | I really would like to move to an e2e encrypted discord
       | alternative. Maybe someday I'll be able to do that with matrix,
       | when ether it gets easier, or I get smarter.
        
         | AndroidKitKat wrote:
         | Have you seen this repository[0] that automated most of the
         | configuration? I have a similar goal to you (get family off of
         | Google Chat), and I was pulling my hair trying to manually set
         | things up. Now the hard part of getting them to migrate...
         | 
         | [0]: https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy
        
           | slickdork wrote:
           | I was just looking at this yesterday, actually! Thank for
           | sharing. It looks very promising. I think my main issue is my
           | only hypervisor right now is unraid, and I'm a bit hesitant
           | to open ports on my firewall directly to a VM on unraid since
           | it's also my personal NAS (I think there's security questions
           | there, even if it is just a VM on it's own vlan? Not sure how
           | possible VM escape is on unraid with this playbook).
        
       | davidhyde wrote:
       | > "Social Login via multiple SSO providers (MSC2858) - almost 50%
       | of new registrations on the Matrix.org homeserver now use social
       | login!" Interestingly the split of SSO usage is roughly 70%
       | Google, 12% GitHub, 11% Apple, 6% Facebook and 1% GitLab.
       | 
       | Congrats to the matrix team, really great work. However, I'm a
       | little confused by the excitement around "social login". Why is
       | it such a great thing? Aren't you just giving someone else power
       | to shut you out of Matrix? We hear so many stories about lives
       | ruined because of arbitrary (often automated) account locking
       | that I just don't understand why anyone would risk using social
       | login at all.
        
         | blitzar wrote:
         | Welcome to federated decentralised service. Please log in with
         | your facebook account.
        
           | twicetwice wrote:
           | This seems like a flippant insubstantial criticism. Facebook
           | is one of many many options--including first-party
           | username+password auth.
           | 
           | It's more like, "Welcome to our federated decentralized
           | service. You can log in with your Facebook account if you
           | want to." Which doesn't sound like a bad thing to me.
           | 
           | More choices for users is usually a good thing. If users'
           | choices have bad consequences, that's not Matrix's fault.
           | Though maybe Matrix should warn people that if 3rd-party cuts
           | them off they'll be locked out of their Facebook account too
           | --choices need to be informed!
        
         | Arathorn wrote:
         | The excitement purely comes from the fact it makes it way
         | easier for casual users to try out Matrix (even at the expense
         | of then being beholden to the SSO providers), and it forced us
         | to dogfood and land first class SSO support :)
        
           | dane-pgp wrote:
           | If someone uses a third party SSO provider, can they create
           | recovery codes to mitigate the risk of having their account
           | closed by that provider? That would be a nice feature to
           | prompt such users to make use of, once they've tried Matrix
           | out for a while and have built up some chat history and
           | connections they wouldn't want to lose.
        
             | Arathorn wrote:
             | Not yet, but it's on the horizon (it's the account
             | portability / multihomed accounts stuff in the OP)
        
       | lsowen wrote:
       | A big thank you to the entire matrix team. You've tackled a big
       | problem space and made great progress. Here's to a great 2021 and
       | and even better 2022!
        
       | exdsq wrote:
       | On the release day of Matrix: Resurrections too!
        
       | 2pEXgD0fZ5cF wrote:
       | I have been using matrix for quite a while now, and managed to
       | get the people I write the most with on it too!
       | 
       | Back then I rented matrix hosting with modular.im (now called
       | ems) once I noticed that I did use Riot/Element on a daily basis,
       | and the latency of matrix.org servers was too big for my taste,
       | combined with the lack of online status display.
       | 
       | Now that dendrite is starting to finally mature, I will probably
       | switch to hosting it myself to save some costs.
       | 
       | Main things stopping me are the possible headaches around domain
       | names and federations: How hard is it to move to a different
       | hoster once I have an instance running?
       | 
       | I read in the documentation that things can become problematic if
       | I don't carefully backup parts of my dendrite matrix instance.
       | What would happen if I (or rather my hosting provider) lose my
       | files and have to setup my matrix instance from scratch, will my
       | domain then remain blocked on the federation, even when I still
       | have control over the domain?
       | 
       | It's not that I don't do backups, but I'm curious what would
       | happen in a worst case scenario.
        
         | MayeulC wrote:
         | I think this scenario isn't handled too well, and I'm afraid
         | servers that have seen your previous server will refuse to talk
         | with it, and continue spamming the old address. Make sure to
         | backup your server's private key so that you can properly leave
         | rooms. It's usually better to leave all rooms prior to
         | decommissioning a server, too, but I am not 100% sure it would
         | prevent that issue.
        
         | jeroenhd wrote:
         | I believe federation recovery should be possible assuming you
         | have access to the server's signing key. Without it, you'll
         | probably run into conflicts.
         | 
         | You'll definitely have problems with missing rooms, missing
         | user encryption, the lot of it. I think it _should_ be possible
         | to re-create and re-import signing keys onto a new server, but
         | I wouldn 't rely on it. You'll probably end up with broken
         | clients for ages. You'll also definitely run into loads of
         | clients 404ing on your server, trying to download media that no
         | longer exists. Personally, if I'd lose access to my server, I'd
         | just start over with a new domain and get my backups in order
         | that time.
         | 
         | If you have backups you can recover, you can get everything up
         | and running painlessly by pointing DNS to the new server and
         | waiting for DNS propagation to finish.
         | 
         | As for moving between hosters, there's a tool for that:
         | https://ems.element.io/tools/matrix-migration; it's a tool
         | that'll invite your new account into every room your old
         | account was part of, transfer profile pictures and such and
         | optionally kick the old client from rooms after migrations.
         | That'll only help if your new account is on a different server,
         | though.
        
       | brunoqc wrote:
       | Any big progress on p2p? I mean more in the MSC side (multi-homed
       | identity and stuff like that).
       | 
       | Also, arewep2pyet.org pretty please.
        
         | Arathorn wrote:
         | Only the stuff mentioned in the blog post. I've written the
         | content for arewep2pyet.com; need to just get it live.
        
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