[HN Gopher] UK's largest flow battery energised
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UK's largest flow battery energised
Author : vanburen
Score : 55 points
Date : 2021-12-20 20:07 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (energysuperhuboxford.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (energysuperhuboxford.org)
| rkwasny wrote:
| 5 MWh = 370 tesla powerwalls - for a grid energy storage this is
| a small POC
| jacquesm wrote:
| That is true. But the Tesla powerwalls would be using Lithium
| Ion tech, and that is used here too but 50 MWh worth of it. So
| the whole installation is considerably larger than what you
| write.
| gandalfian wrote:
| 27x 20ft shipping containers combine to form a 5mw vanadium flow
| battery buffering a 50mw lithium battery. Which is interesting
| but the fact it's not 100% flow battery suggest lithium must
| still be sufficiently cheaper to overcome its shorter life.
| ok_dad wrote:
| > 27x 20ft shipping containers combine to form a 5mw [it's
| 5MWh, not 5MW] vanadium flow battery
|
| This seems like a LOT of space required for such a low
| capacity. For a 5MWh flow battery, I wonder what the peak power
| output actually is from the system? for LiIon, you would see
| about ~1MW peak power from such a small reserve of energy. Flow
| batteries are longer lasting, so I assume this battery is less
| peak output. I am pretty sure that the LiIon battery will be
| doing the heavy lifting here, sized as it is. This isn't a huge
| leap forward.
| TradingPlaces wrote:
| Vanadium flow batteries have gotten lots of interest because
| vanadium has 4 oxidation states, so the positive and negative
| electrolyte tanks have distinct charged and discharged
| chemistries. This adds a ton of flexibility to usage from
| multiple cycles per day to seasonal storage while the battery is
| still operating daily.
|
| Manufacturers are advertising 20k cycles vs 6-7k for Li-ion, but
| in theory, flow batteries can last forever with maintenance.
| jacquesm wrote:
| This is a very interesting development. 55MWh is a drop in the
| bucket at grid scale but it definitely is a step forward if the
| installation performs as designed over a longer period of time
| without reliability issues.
|
| For comparison purposes, also in the UK, Cruachan Dam has 7+ GWh
| worth of (pumped) storage, but this one even in its present state
| should be able to spin up even faster (though Cruachan Dam is
| _very_ impressive in that respect).
| retzkek wrote:
| Since TFA didn't really explain what a "flow" battery is:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery
| yob28 wrote:
| elithrar wrote:
| > In the ESO hybrid energy storage system, Invinity's vanadium
| flow batteries are used to 'front-end' the energy asset, acting
| as a first line of response when the system is called into
| service; only after the required response exceeds the capacity
| of the Invinity battery does the lithium-ion battery get called
| into service. Since Invinity's flow battery does not degrade
| with use and can cycle indefinitely, it performs much of the
| 'heavy-lifting' required from the system while reducing wear on
| the lithium-ion battery.
|
| From TFA.
| zeristor wrote:
| Its like no one has heard of Stocking Pelham from 4 years ago:
|
| https://stateraenergy.co.uk/Energy%20Storage%20Facility/pelh...
| jacquesm wrote:
| But that's just Lithium Ion cells.
| apendleton wrote:
| The mix of lithium ion and flow batteries here (50MWh of the
| former vs. 5MWh of the latter) kind of makes this feel like a
| proof of concept to me on the flow battery side -- I'd sort of
| expect the reverse, and to want to mostly lean on the flow
| batteries because of their suitability for long-duration storage
| and their tolerance of lots and lots of cycles, and mostly only
| use the lithium ion when you needed lots of power or to handle
| rapid changes in demand. But maybe I misunderstand the dynamics
| here?
| jacquesm wrote:
| If you think of the flow battery as a fast cache and the
| Lithium Ion as a slower one then that might help you form a
| better picture.
| tacLog wrote:
| I think they covered this question pretty well here:
|
| > Invinity's vanadium flow batteries are used to 'front-end'
| the energy asset, acting as a first line of response when the
| system is called into service; only after the required response
| exceeds the capacity of the Invinity battery does the lithium-
| ion battery get called into service. Since Invinity's flow
| battery does not degrade with use and can cycle indefinitely,
| it performs much of the 'heavy-lifting' required from the
| system while reducing wear on the lithium-ion battery.
|
| What I think this means, is the the 5Mhw of flow batter covers
| demand spikes and the 50Mhw allows for larger longer draws
| during off peak renewable times.
|
| I am just an enthusiastic auteur in this field and could be
| very wrong.
| aftbit wrote:
| But why? I thought one of the chief advantages of flow
| batteries was a lower cost per kWh at scale, as the expensive
| electrodes can be sized for peak power, while the cheaper
| electrolyte can be sized for capacity. Perhaps the economies
| of scale in lithium-ion batteries have had a bigger impact on
| cost than this clever split, so lion is actually cheaper per
| kwh?
| apendleton wrote:
| Yes, exactly, this was my question as well. I understand
| their explanation for how they're using it, but it seems
| like the economics would be much better if configured
| differently.
| trasz wrote:
| Kind of battery cache?
| squeed wrote:
| I think you're basically right. I know some people that
| looked in to building a flow battery (it didn't pan out for
| other reasons). The utility wanted it for frequency
| regulation - in other words, extremely short timescale
| response times.
| trebligdivad wrote:
| They don't say why it's combined with traditional lithium ion -
| wasn't one of the promises of Flow that they can scale it up for
| longer storage just by adding more liquid?
| jacquesm wrote:
| It's not a matter of being able to scale it up, it is mostly a
| cost optimization.
| Trombone12 wrote:
| Guessing blindly here, but maybe the liquid is pretty expensive
| still?
| [deleted]
| pphysch wrote:
| Why is this news? It's a 5MWh vanadium flow battery. Another
| country put online a 800MWh vanadium flow battery (160x larger)
| this year [1].
|
| > Not only will this be the largest directly-transmission-
| connected battery installed in the UK to date, _it will be the
| largest vanadium flow + lithium-ion hybrid battery ever
| deployed._
|
| This is like boasting you have the world first, largest ever
| potato+nuclear reactor energy source by throwing a potato in an
| existing nuclear reactor. Good PR for securing the next contract
| from dimwitted bureaucrats, I guess, but hardly a genuine
| exposition of cutting-edge technological development.
|
| [1] - https://www.power-technology.com/marketdata/dalian-uet-
| rongk...
| gandalfian wrote:
| "Why is this news? Another country put online a 800MWh vanadium
| flow battery"
|
| Did they actually finish building it and get it working and
| achieve a reasonable cost? Or is it just a big announcement and
| PR release so far? But yes if they do manage it that is
| amazing. Otherwise just peacocking.
| pphysch wrote:
| Yes, the project started 5 years ago IIRC and completed this
| year.
| jacquesm wrote:
| It was _scheduled_ to complete this year (in fact, it was
| originally scheduled to be completed in 2019, then 2020,
| and then it was supposed to be 2021), but it has as far as
| I know not been completed yet and has not been taken into
| general service. Proof to the contrary would be gladly
| accepted, if they get it to completion and it functions as
| advertised it will instantly be the largest of its kind in
| the world.
| jacquesm wrote:
| From what I know about it it got delayed twice by more than a
| year and isn't operational.
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(page generated 2021-12-20 23:01 UTC)