[HN Gopher] France latest to slap Clearview AI with order to del...
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France latest to slap Clearview AI with order to delete data
Author : arkadiyt
Score : 52 points
Date : 2021-12-19 19:26 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (techcrunch.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (techcrunch.com)
| jackjeff wrote:
| How is France (or the EU) going to enforce their extra
| territorial law on a US company with no business interests in the
| EU?
|
| > Enforcing fines on companies without an EU base does present a
| regulatory challenge, however.
|
| Understatement of the year.
| dmortin wrote:
| Let's say Clearview says they are deleting the data. How could
| France make sure the data is actually deleted? Is it possible
| without perusing Clearview's source code and accessing its
| servers?
| hlbjhblbljib wrote:
| They'd also have to be able to identify pictures of French
| people. Perhaps a large US-based corporation could help them
| developing a tool to do it? They'd need lots of examples first.
| [deleted]
| kmlx wrote:
| > Clearview sought to suggest the company is not subject to the
| GDPR -- although the regulation is extraterritorial in scope,
| meaning it is applicable and (at least in theory) enforceable
| outside the EU's borders in instances when EU people's data has
| been processed in violation of the rules.
|
| GDPR applies also outside of the EU? who exactly thought this one
| up? how can the EU possibly think it can enforce this and does
| the EU think europeans should be subject some special rules when
| in a foreign country?
| downWidOutaFite wrote:
| Clearview AI is one of the main arguments I have used to convince
| many friends and family to stop posting face pictures to the web,
| especially of children who cannot consent.
|
| The social web is definetly a poorer experience without pictures,
| but this is the way our capitalist masters have decided to
| destroy our commons.
| throwaway277432 wrote:
| I requested my data back in March 2020 when they were on HN,
| never got an answer.
|
| They wanted me to upload a photo ID to verify my identity and I
| was stupid enough to comply.
|
| One commenter said: This is a case of 'never
| click "opt-out" on spam'. Clearview is not to be trusted. One
| should not go through their process. They are not likely to
| delete the data, and if they have none, they are likely to create
| a profile for you.
|
| I should have listened, lesson learned.
| csdvrx wrote:
| Your comment is extremely point on, yet was dead, so I vouched
| for it.
|
| I think you perfectly highlight the difficulty of the current
| opt-out process.
|
| I do not know how it should be done without revealing more
| information, except maybe by using an attorney that would have
| the legal power to act in your name while only revealing his
| information, and not yours.
| shakna wrote:
| > Clearview AI does not have a place of business in France or the
| EU, it does not have any customers in France or the EU, and does
| not undertake any activities that would otherwise mean it is
| subject to the GDPR.
|
| > To be clear, Clearview AI has not violated any law nor has it
| interfered with the privacy of Australians. Clearview AI does not
| do business in Australia, does not have any Australian users.
|
| > The UK ICO Commissioner's assertions are factually and legally
| incorrect. The company is considering an appeal and further
| action. Clearview AI provides publicly available information from
| the internet to law enforcement agencies. To be clear, Clearview
| AI does not do business in the UK, and does not have any UK
| customers at this time.
|
| > Clearview AI's technology is not available in Canada and it
| does not operate in Canada.
|
| This time, and the last three times, Clearview have made the same
| legal argument. That because they have no physical basis in a
| country, and because their customers aren't in that country
| (though several times that has occurred post-breach), they cannot
| possibly have breached that country's laws.
|
| Despite the privacy laws of every nation being around the
| _citizen_, not their physical location. All four places have
| extraterritoriality baked into their privacy laws, and all four
| have trade agreements with the US in place that could mean that
| they could ask the US to enforce compliance and make it into a
| diplomatic issue.
|
| How many more times do their lawyers have to be told the same
| thing before they try and come up with a new argument?
| hlbjhblbljib wrote:
| Sure, their laws affect their citizens. Clearview AI isn't a
| French citizen. French laws don't apply.
|
| How many more times does France need to be told to fuck off
| before it stops trying to legislate in other countries?
| Youden wrote:
| I'm curious, do you also think it's wrong when the US applies
| its own laws worldwide where they concern its citizens (e.g.
| FATCA, Hague Invasion Act.)?
| prmoustache wrote:
| What about Julian Assage? US laws shouldn't apply to him yet
| they want to extradite and trial him for things done outside
| US juridiction.
| tempnow987 wrote:
| Wishing something is true doesn't make it true.
|
| How many more times do these bodies need to pass "orders" that
| don't result in any action before they come up with a new
| approach?
|
| The US does not have GDPR. Period. Flat out. Full stop. Once
| you understand that, things will make a lot more sense.
|
| And no, extraterritoriality means absolute zero here. That
| french citizen traveling in America? Heads up, US Customs does
| not have to respect to GDPR. Neither does the walmart he shops
| at. Neither does Amazon if he orders something online.
|
| Claiming they do is weird, that's not how it works.
|
| Before we are snarking about clearview having to come up with
| new arguments, let's evaluate how well their current arguments
| are working?
|
| Pretty darn well.
|
| And my guess is the US government, rather than shutting them
| down, will PAY them to do their stuff, ESPECIALLY on overseas
| nationals. This is exactly the type of big government "anti
| terrorism" surveillance style databases govts love.
| curryst wrote:
| > Heads up, US Customs does not have to respect to GDPR.
|
| Customs is part of a sovereign nation. What customs can and
| can't do has precious little bearing on what companies can
| and can't do. It's basically irrelevant.
|
| > Neither does the walmart he shops at. Neither does Amazon
| if he orders something online.
|
| Sure, if both are OK with not being able to operate in the EU
| _and_ believe the US government will take the political heat
| for refusing to enforce the EUs laws.
|
| We also don't strictly _have_ to extradite criminals to other
| countries. But we usually do.
|
| International law functions nothing like domestic law,
| because there is no higher power to say "no, you can't do
| that". If the EU can get the US to punish US companies
| through diplomacy, force or trades, then that's how things
| work. If they can't, then it's not how things work.
|
| My guess is that the US won't shield them. It's not critical
| for US defense, largely redundant with data available from
| Facebook, and we're already fighting to keep our existing
| tech giants abroad. Clearview is more useful as a sacrificial
| pawn than trying to get it crowned a queen.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| Trying to apply law to a company in another country using your
| country's laws is a bit difficult unless your country is the
| United States.
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| I'm guessing EU has enough power to pull such a minor thing
| through without issues.
|
| Just raising tarrifs on some US made stuff, until this is
| resolved, will make many larger and stronger companies phone
| the US administration directly and make a deal.
| dataking wrote:
| It comes down to jurisdiction. EU can only enforce its GDPR
| within its member countries.
| pulse7 wrote:
| ...and within trade agreements with other countries, which
| are many...
| hlbjhblbljib wrote:
| I warned people about this garbage when GDPR came out and
| was shouted down for it. It's the same as the fucking
| copyright laws we're all burdened with.
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