[HN Gopher] A deep dive on a Facebook reseller of bikes stolen i...
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A deep dive on a Facebook reseller of bikes stolen in Colorado
Author : epa
Score : 224 points
Date : 2021-12-18 18:36 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (bikeindex.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (bikeindex.org)
| throwaway82931 wrote:
| > _Ideally, this article would hopefully help de-platform this
| seller off of Facebook, but we aren 't holding our breath on that
| one. Facebook is basically terrible about this, and their
| existing mechanisms for dealing with reporting sellers like this
| simply don't work._
|
| > [...]
|
| > _There is no button to click where you can explain to anybody
| at FB "this is a repeat seller of bikes stolen in Colorado, and
| here's our proof, and here's our contact info." etc. It is almost
| as if their system for reporting stolen goods is designed not to
| work._
|
| So "storefront for stolen goods" is another way Facebook makes
| our lives worse.
| g8oz wrote:
| In the 2000s Craigslist was threatened by a coalition of 40
| state attorneys general into policing their sex ads....Facebook
| will need something similar.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I would rather the government do their job and police and
| prosecute illegal acts.
| throwaway82931 wrote:
| Like prosecuting Facebook for colluding in the sale of
| stolen property?
| Calvin02 wrote:
| I'm genuinely curious. How would you propose Facebook
| enforce this?
|
| People selling bikes include both first-hand buyers and
| second-hand buyers (people who bought it from someone
| else).
|
| Without a central registry like what we have for cars, I
| don't know what Facebook could do.
| bhance wrote:
| States enforce pawn laws through electronic systems like
| LEADS. FB, offerup, and every other platform out there
| letting thieves fence things with impunity could
| implement same.
| 8note wrote:
| Disallow selling bikes. If you can't figure out a way to
| only allow legal resales, you shouldn't be in the
| business
| novok wrote:
| And hurt everyone who is legit selling their own bike
| too.
| bryan_w wrote:
| Facebook has all the information any willing police
| officer/DA would need to capture the thieves. All they
| would need to do is go to a judge and ask.
|
| Also the legislature could make laws to make it easier to
| send bike thieves to jail.
|
| The government != Facebook and it's better that way since
| we can vote to change things that we find wrong with the
| government, but lack that ability with FB
| jessaustin wrote:
| Attorneys general DGAF about cyclists. If they did, there
| would be more prosecutions for vehicular assault/murder.
| novok wrote:
| Wonder if there has been a biking political group that got
| a 'bicycle DA' elected in and what happened.
| walrus01 wrote:
| In Vancouver if your bike gets stolen there's also an almost
| _literal_ storefront for stolen goods. If your bike gets stolen
| and is worth a few thousand dollars there 's a good chance it
| will turn up within a few hours to a few days at a street
| market of stolen goods, in a specific several block zone of
| East Hastings.
|
| https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=east+hast...
|
| If it is _really_ high end (like $7000+ Canadian dollar value)
| and the theft was targeted rather than random, more likely it
| might get parted out /sold as components on facebook or sent to
| another provice for sale by an organized group. Very
| occasionally Vancouver police or RCMP will find a storage unit
| full of $7000+ bikes that are being collected together in one
| place prior to transport out of province.
| hhmc wrote:
| The thing I find surprising about high-end bike crime -- it
| seems easy to crack down on -- if there's any desire to do
| so.
|
| Acquire some bait bikes, then put some 40mm GPS trackers
| somewhere unusual in the bike (the chain stays?), maybe this
| requires a bit of surgery, but this seems like a relatively
| small cost. Then raid whatever warehouse they end up in.
|
| I guess there's no real political will to do this.
| vkou wrote:
| > I guess there's no real political will to do this.
|
| Correct. Police generally don't give two figs about
| property crime.
| walrus01 wrote:
| chainstays seem like it would be a hard technical problem
| since cutting open/accessing the inside of a chain stay
| would greatly weaken a bike. and on road bikes/hybrid bikes
| the chainstay diameter can be quite narrow.
|
| Some sort of GPS+LTE data modem and battery might be easily
| integrated into a seatpost based tracker, or stem, or
| combined stem-bar unit. A bit tricky since either aluminum
| or carbon fiber structural components are RF opaque.
|
| maybe mounted in one of the areas in the downtube or seat
| tube that's designed into modern road bikes for ultegra/di2
| internal battery mounting, or related to power meter
| crankset mounting.
| hhmc wrote:
| I think the downside of seatpost/stem is that it's more
| easy to check. Good point about RF, didn't consider that.
| I still think it's within the realms of possibility
| though?
| walrus01 wrote:
| Maybe built into/epoxied to the inside-facing-side of
| crankset arms? Such that it looks like an expensive power
| meter crank. Definitely within the realm of possibility
| and I have heard that people have successfully done it as
| a DIY approach.
| verve_rat wrote:
| Maybe they don't need to be hidden that well. If one or
| slip past then you can track those to the warehouse and
| send a few people to jail.
|
| After that people can add fake trackers (maybe an antenna
| lead under the seat). Now the thieves have extra
| uncertainty, raising the cost to steal. And working
| trackers will be mixed in with the fake ones, making each
| bike a gamble.
| georgeoliver wrote:
| This is a great article. The resale prices of the bikes are also
| interesting (in the mid 4 figures USD range), considering the per
| capita income of Mexico vs the USA.
| umanwizard wrote:
| There are plenty of people in Mexico that have that kind of
| disposable income. Fewer than in the US, sure, but Mexico is a
| rich country by global standards and its wealth is very
| unequally distributed.
| walrus01 wrote:
| I can't say that I'm familiar with bikeindex, it seems to be
| generally the same idea as 529 garage which is much more commonly
| used in BC/WA/OR/CA.
|
| https://project529.com/garage
|
| Donations to 529 are encouraged and you can buy their sticker,
| but you can also register your new bike for free just by taking a
| few photos of it, your bill of sale, and its serial number
| (typically embossed into the bottom bracket somewhere). Takes a
| max of 5-10 minutes to do to set up new account and register a
| bike.
|
| I am loathe to recommend the use of Facebook for anything, but
| people in the metro Vancouver area have taken it on themselves to
| create a group called Stolen Bikes Vancouver which has
| successfully crowdsourced the location and return of bikes to
| some people. It's at least better than doing nothing, in the
| almost total lack of law enforcement cooperation.
|
| https://www.facebook.com/groups/stolenbike604//
| throwaway82931 wrote:
| > _I am loathe to recommend the use of Facebook for anything,
| but [...] It 's at least better than doing nothing_
|
| Is it? A central theme of the article is how Facebook is
| facilitating bike theft by providing essential electronic
| storefront space, and that you can't get Facebook to take down
| such storefronts.
| walrus01 wrote:
| yes, though as facebook seems to be a lowest-common-
| denominator method of social media communications for many
| people, even if they use it rarely, I am not aware of any
| other 4000 person group for sharing stolen bike information
| in that specific city.
|
| simultaneously you've got stolen bike sales going on within
| the facebook marketplace and also a group of people trying to
| find/recover their stolen bikes.
| gs17 wrote:
| > and that you can't get Facebook to take down such
| storefronts.
|
| This really surprised me given the difficulty I had with
| Facebook Marketplace incorrectly taking down my listings and
| refusing to put them back up (one was an empty aquarium,
| taken down for selling "live animals").
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| The remarkable thing about modern online platforms that
| have zero accountability or customer service is that they
| somehow manage to have an alarmingly high false positive
| rate and false negative rate at the same time. It remains
| unclear to me if this is inevitable at their scale, or
| simply that they really are that bad.
| [deleted]
| softbuilder wrote:
| Bike Index is very well known at least in OR/WA (I'm in PDX)
| and has been around a long time. I appreciate you're supportive
| of another effort but you don't need to push one effort down to
| lift another up.
| walrus01 wrote:
| I don't see where I said anything disparaging bikeindex, it
| certainly can't hurt to register a bike or search on both
| sites. My comment was a one person sample size anecdote of
| what I've commonly seen used on the west coast.
| softbuilder wrote:
| > it seems to be generally the same idea as 529 garage
| which is much more commonly used in BC/WA/OR/CA.
|
| This read (to me) as "sure, but the REAL thing is over
| here", stated as authoritative fact, not a one person
| sample size anecdote.
| walrus01 wrote:
| interestingly both sites want to claim to be the single
| authoritative source of data, and place to register and
| search for stolen bikes, but the "market" for such online
| services is really split between the two... or maybe
| there's a 3rd online bike registry I'm totally unaware of
| as well?
|
| from the bikeindex faq (https://bikeindex.org/help):
|
| =====
|
| Right now people with good intentions buy stolen bikes
| because there isn't a single searchable, simple resource
| to check before buying a bike.
|
| Bike Index is that resource. The next time you buy a used
| bike, check the Index first.
|
| =====
|
| 529 garage also would seem to present as if _it_ is the
| only source of data...
|
| https://project529.com/garage/faq/en/
|
| in reality I think the data is split between the two
| sites. My bike is registered on 529, this has provided
| motivation to me to also submit the same photos/data to
| bikeindex for a belt and suspenders type approach.
| jvolkman wrote:
| Didn't think I'd be spending part of my Saturday reading
| about drama in the world of bike tracking, but -
|
| According to this page, project529 uses bikeindex's
| stolen bike reports in its own listings, but doesn't
| share its data with bikeindex.
|
| https://bicyclesecurityadvisors.com/protect-your-
| bike/index-...
| walrus01 wrote:
| I was surprised by the table showing 177,000 listings for
| one and 700,000 listings in the other.
|
| Ideally they could both share data and mirror each other
| for both registrations and stolen bike listings, for the
| most effective use by people who may be unaware of the
| other entity.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I see no pushing down.
| sethherr wrote:
| Donate to Bike Index! We're more widely used everywhere except
| for Vancouver. Also, we wrote this article! And Bike Index is a
| non profit, so it makes sense to donate to us, rather than a
| for profit company.
|
| https://bikeindex.org/donate
| slim wrote:
| Off topic, but classic film to watch : Ladri di bicyclette, by
| Vittorio de Sica
|
| https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0040522/
| agumonkey wrote:
| Who here uses trackers ? apparently there are lorawan based
| modules with included data plan and a phone app for less than
| 100$
| 0cVlTeIATBs wrote:
| I looked to see if they have been sentenced, but instead found
| this about the fence of the group:
|
| "Adrian Rocha Chairez is charged with 31 felony counts including
| racketeering. Police say he headed up an organized crime ring
| responsible for more than a million dollars in damaged property
| and stolen cars and bikes. He was indicted in Denver, where a
| judge set bond at $500,000.
|
| A Boulder judge knocked it down to $10,000. He walked out even
| after prosecutors noted he had weapons and ties to Mexico."
|
| [0] https://denver.cbslocal.com/2021/12/08/boulder-pr-bonds-
| murr...
| starwind wrote:
| Hoo boy, this one's good (from the same article): "Police
| suspect Savuth and Yulisa Yin in the death and cover-up of a
| Longmont real estate broker. They're charged with stealing $3
| million in property from him. They were let out on $500 cash
| bonds each, even after prosecutors presented evidence that they
| planned to leave the country."
|
| That's Boulder for you
| dannylandau wrote:
| I'm from Boulder Colorado, and had 2 bikes stolen as a teenager.
| So, this touches very close to home.
| soared wrote:
| I'm going to put some of the blame on the Denver
| government/police for this, but not for a lack of enforcement. If
| your bike is impounded or stolen and recovered it is nearly
| impossible to retrieve it. You cannot call to see if it was
| picked up. You cannot look for it online. You have to show up to
| their sketchy office during business hours, wait in line, and ask
| the guy to go look through all the bikes and try to find yours.
| With hundreds of bikes it almost certainly will not be found.
|
| The government auctions off some of the bikes and gives or sells
| the rest of the bikes to charity.
|
| Two years ago my bike was locked in a location it should not have
| been downtown along with many other bikes. When I came back to
| find my bike missing the police officer said all of the bikes
| were impounded. I called around, went to the impound place
| twice.. but my bike was never found.
|
| In short, great investigation work by bike index. But their
| efforts are hindered by the city.
| dillondoyle wrote:
| The theft here feels off the charts right now too.
|
| I know a lot of police have quit and they don't have budget to
| increase next class size. Vaccines too..
|
| Sympathizers say that cities' new rules on when to engage are a
| big cause but it seems to me we can have both enforcement and
| no needless violence. To me it feels like police are just
| having a temper tantrum saying you don't want us, watch what
| happens when we don't do anything.
|
| I see cop cars breaking traffic laws around cap hill and
| downtown and just driving around staring at the homeless camps.
| Flipping on lights to go the wrong way down a one way street
| around civic building. When there is an OD (all the time) I
| just see them sitting in their car doing nothing but wait for
| paramedics. zero humanity.
|
| I can't remember the last time I've seen a traffic enforcement
| stop and speeding & illegal parking is out of control.
|
| I'm not sure if it's uniquely bad here? I know theft is
| increasing everywhere.
|
| I've had my car broken into four times this year, often they
| just pull on the topper until it breaks open. Usually nothing
| in there. Once went through back window to the front. If a
| package is in the entrance more than a day it will be gone.
|
| Last year I had a probably 300 pound, 4' x 6' wooden crate
| stolen from my back parking lot! insane. It was a pretty
| expensive marble sink top.
|
| I've installed cameras and more lights doesn't matter or make
| any difference.
|
| Somewhat off topic but insurance lady on the phone spent 20
| minutes on hold trying to find a way to reject the claim...
| Same with my recent travel insurance. Provide them the bare
| minimum documentation and say nothing beyond a couple sentences
| on the phone they will just sit quietly on the phone waiting
| for you to say something, often emotionally since something
| crappy happened. they are looking for anything to use against
| your claim. Sucks.
| tomcam wrote:
| That whole situation is profoundly depressing.
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| Don't bikes have serial numbers?
|
| How hard is it to just publish the list of "found" and imponded
| bikes, that everyone can see?
| enjo wrote:
| They use the serial number as a means to identify that you
| are actually the owner. Denver has a system where if you
| register you bike with the city and your bike is found
| they'll notify you.
| bhance wrote:
| ... and this serial-search system is closed to the public,
| whereas Bike index makes this possible to everybody.
| mfg4u wrote:
| Yes, but usually the first thing thieves do when they steal a
| bike is grind away the serial numbers.
| dmurray wrote:
| The extremely well-organized group detailed in TFA doesn't
| grind away the serial numbers, as you can see them in
| several of the photographs.
| Ma8ee wrote:
| And make it clear from the start to any potential buyers
| that it is a stolen bike?
| vkou wrote:
| The buyers are well aware they are buying stolen goods.
| ryguytilidie wrote:
| ...yes?
| tommoor wrote:
| Large parts of America seem to still see bikes as "toys" rather
| than somewhat expensive vehicles that people depend on. Imagine
| if this approach was taken with recovered stolen cars too.
| hellbannedguy wrote:
| I really feel they just don't see the importance of
| retrieving a stolen bike.
|
| It dosen't bring in any money. They would rather cruise
| around and write Revenue Citations?
|
| While my BP is up, does anyone see what our local police
| squads are doing since the Floyd Riots?
|
| Perceived pain of dealing with public dissatisfaction with
| our boys in blue:
|
| 1. "Ok---the citizens are on to us. They are angry over
| abuse, needless pullovers, and the rising price of their
| tickets we procure when hiding behind hedges?"
|
| 2. "By golly they want to defund us? Who's going to pay my
| slimony, or my subscription to Netfilx? After all I like me
| Dirty Harry. He's a real man!"
|
| 3. "Sarge---how about just not doing anything. I mean less
| than we did before. We will tell the boys in the bad areas of
| town to turn a blind eye. Let's watch the crime rate go up?
| (At this point I don't know if there's a rize in crime. I see
| the same footage of thieves stealing stuff at Nordstrom's
| nightly.)
|
| 4. People see a perceived rise in crime, and all talk of
| reform are shelved. There's a 180 shift in public sediment.
|
| 5. In the end, more money is thrown at the police. Zero
| reform. Zero retraining.
|
| 6. I have seen this senerio of not doing anything and it
| seems to work. It used to be called the Blue Flu.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Except, it is almost the exact same with cars. If your car is
| stolen, there is very little chance the cops will actually
| help you recover it. If it is impounded, you too get to stand
| in line during business hours trying to get it back (if you
| can). At some point, those cars are also sold at auction.
|
| Where are you seeing the difference?
| bradlys wrote:
| Yeah - seriously. I only found my stolen car because
| someone reported it to the police because the people that
| were leaving it were being a loud nuisance.
|
| Oh yeah - it was already being given parking tickets too.
| While it was reported stolen. I had to go to the local
| court in person in order to get the tickets revoked.
|
| Law enforcement and the general institution of law _does
| not care_.
| bhance wrote:
| Hello. Article author here. Hit me up if anybody has questions.
| bryannn wrote:
| Really interesting find. I had previously seen suspicion that
| this exact thing was happening. Were these Guerilla Gravity
| bikes linked to the showroom burglary that happened earlier
| this year?
|
| Also, could you please try to get this posted on
| Pinkbike/VitalMTB? Would like to see this shared on other
| common bike sites.
| bhance wrote:
| Yes, those GG bikes are confirmed. And yes its on PB
| somewhere in the forums. And many Colorado FB groups, which
| is how new victims which we knew nothing about are now
| trickling in. Please spread it wherever you can.
| bhance wrote:
| PS there are other CO shop robbery bikes in here, we just
| didn't spell them all out. But we have confirmations on
| others.
| bhance wrote:
| Guess I'll just run with this: Since this article was
| published, here's what has transpired
|
| My inbox became:
|
| a) various cyclists in Mexico giving me more info b) new
| victims who have read the article, identifying their stolen
| bikes in this guy's sales that we posted, including commercial
| shop robberies c) people sending copies of his "official
| message" to his clients he posted, in which he denies the
| claims we make and essentially calls us liars, etc and asks for
| his customers support
|
| After that, Mexican Cycling FB picked it up. FWIW Mex cycling
| folks are awesome, we had some really good input and comms with
| folks in that community.
|
| For about 24 hours the store would remove any negative comments
| from their page from cyclists and/or customers, far as we could
| tell, and all his customers were chiming in how much of a great
| shop he was with great deals and great service. Nobody would
| address the proof we posted of stolen in his sales.
|
| As of an hour ago (?) or so the guys page is now gone.
| umanwizard wrote:
| Did you attempt to report these guys to Mexican police? (I know
| Mexico has a reputation for being a failing state, but the
| chance something will come of it is at least not zero, surely).
| bndw wrote:
| Awesome work, glad you guys are still at it.
| spamizbad wrote:
| Tons of boosted goods land on Facebook Marketplace. It's also
| where shoplifting rings tend to dump their goods.
| 71a54xd wrote:
| The amount of this behavior on eBay is also pretty stunning,
| however the rules that have been proposed to curve this basically
| stand to completely destroy secondary markets which is horrible
| for single use electronics consumption and the environment in
| general.
| mfashby wrote:
| TFA reminded me to go register my own bike, which I had forgotten
| to do. I also registered at bikeregister.com which is linked from
| the UK police.
| literallyaduck wrote:
| Facebook should be held to the same standards as pawnshops.
| umanwizard wrote:
| What standards are pawnshops held to?
| bhance wrote:
| Here is just one example https://www.portland.gov/code/14/b90
|
| check out "14B.90.080 Reporting of Secondhand Dealer
| Transactions"
|
| details differ by state and city, but the gist is "electronic
| records of serials are transmitted to law enforcement" etc.
| Also items are held for a while, not sold immediately.
| bhance wrote:
| also Offerup. Please, please please.
| windows2020 wrote:
| In early high school, we'd ride bikes to the local coffee shop,
| lean them against the big windows out front and hangout. Somehow,
| no one noticed when mine was snatched one evening. I was pretty
| devastated.
|
| My grandfather drove me around the town the next day to see if I
| could spot it. When we were about to give up, I noticed a bike
| leaning along side a house near the shop. I could see it from the
| street. It looked exactly like mine. It had the same replacement
| seat and even a curly bike lock coiled around the handlebars on
| the same side I left it. But it had been hastily spray pained.
|
| We called the police, they arrived and a kid inside noticed the
| commotion and came out. They had found the bike at the shop and
| took it. I went to inspect it. I was very surprised when I found
| the small yard behind the house was packed with around fifty
| bikes. To the cop, I said something like, "there's tons of bikes
| back here!" I then remembered another friend had theirs stolen as
| well.
|
| He didn't look for himself, and said I couldn't just take the
| bike. There was no proof it was mine. So, I said, "what if I can
| unlock the bike lock?" I could and was allowed to take it, but it
| had been ruined. My prized shiny bike had been banged up and
| spray painted.
|
| The following week my mother read me a letter that had arrived.
| The town would not be prosecuting the kid. I was confused. I did
| nothing wrong and stayed out of trouble myself. Did their actions
| not warrant any consequences?
|
| My mother ended up going to the police department and insisting
| the town prosecute, which they ended up doing. I'm not sure what
| happened. Did the consequences dissuade them from stealing a 51st
| bike? Their family had failed them, would their community? If not
| for religion, what hope did they have?
| theturtletalks wrote:
| Had my bike stolen twice out of my garage and the first thing I
| did was file a police report with the color and brand. Write
| down your serial number if you have a bike and so you can
| provide that as well.
|
| I knew the police would not really look for a bike so I scoured
| Craigslist, OfferUp, and Facebook Marketplace. Eventually I
| found the bike both times. I messaged the person to meet up,
| called the police, and provided my report number and the
| listing. The police met up the people and got my bike back
| twice.
|
| What happened to the thieves that stole my bike twice and broke
| my expensive locks? Absolutely nothing. When I asked the cop
| why they weren't cited or charged, he said they were fences.
| Guess if you're a fence, you can get away with selling stolen
| goods because you can claim you thought you bought the item
| legitimately. I'm sure those fences were selling other people's
| bikes as well, but cops didn't do anything.
|
| The deterrence for small crimes is slowly falling as thieves
| are realizing that the cops are not punishing thieves even
| after catching them red-handed.
| itronitron wrote:
| That house was probably already well known to the town cops and
| they didn't want to deal with the hassle.
| tomcam wrote:
| If your mom is still around, please thank her for me.
| Seriously, that was an amazing thing she did.
| cortesoft wrote:
| > The town would not be prosecuting the kid. I was confused. I
| did nothing wrong and stayed out of trouble myself. Did their
| actions not warrant any consequences?
|
| I feel like there is an unpleasant reality that people either
| don't realize or don't want to accept... there is simply not
| enough resources to go after every petty criminal with
| prosecution. Honestly, I am not even sure it would be a good
| idea even if we had the resources... should we spend thousands
| on a prosecution over a $50 crime? Will that actually reduce
| crime enough to make it worthwhile?
|
| Criminal prosecution works as a deterrent by being something
| that CAN happen for minor crimes, but doesn't always... the
| chance they could be prosecuted hopefully deters most would be
| criminals, and only prosecuting a few saves money and is more
| efficient.
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(page generated 2021-12-18 23:00 UTC)