[HN Gopher] Kinesis Advantage 360
___________________________________________________________________
Kinesis Advantage 360
Author : ndrake
Score : 377 points
Date : 2021-12-17 17:07 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (kinesis-ergo.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (kinesis-ergo.com)
| oftenwrong wrote:
| I've felt for a long time that this would be an obvious move. I
| know that many people, myself included, like the Kinesis
| Advantage design, but wanted a split design like the Freestyle.
| I've even seen DIY versions.
| sickcodebruh wrote:
| Wow! This looks fantastic.
|
| I'm a big fan of this company and their products. My Advantage 2
| just broke this week. I had a really great exchange with their
| support today, we went from initial contact to replacement part
| shipped VERY quickly over just a couple emails. I'm not
| particularly bothered by it breaking -- I have a spare and I
| appreciate that they can just send me a new cable assembly and
| call it a day. If I was on the market for something portable, I'd
| pickup this new one in a heartbeat.
| frou_dh wrote:
| Split with major tenting is cool:
|
| https://kinesis-ergo.com/wp-content/uploads/Adv360-Pro-Asymm...
|
| I've already settled on my "endgame" desktop keyboard in the
| Matias Ergo Pro though. Don't like layouts that stray too far
| from ANSI.
| kareemm wrote:
| The Ergo pro is an excellent keyboard. I've had two. Biggest
| problems are reliability - my first had a bunch of keys stop
| working in 9 months! They sent a replacement half for $99. That
| one stopped working 13 months later.
|
| I would google around and read some reviews on Amazon and
| Reddit before committing. Sadly these issues seem common.
|
| Their warranty support was... not good. Their COO didn't really
| stand by their product. I know 4 other people who had similar
| experiences - they all love the keyboard but switched after it
| basically fell apart.
|
| I'd buy another in a heartbeat if I knew it would last well
| beyond the warranty like every single other keyboard I've ever
| had over 32 years of computer ownership.
| throw455654 wrote:
| I had a similar issue with my Kinesis Advantage 2. Phantom
| key presses after a few months.
|
| Makes me nervous to purchase one again.
| frou_dh wrote:
| That sucks. Before buying, I read a lot of reports of key-
| repeating issues, but hopefully that will never be an issue
| for me because 1) I buy the 'Low Force edition' which uses
| different switches to the normal one, and 2) I spoke to a
| distributor and they told me it was pretty easy to fix that
| particular issue by cleaning the mechanism. Though I do
| actually have some New-in-Box spares that I snagged for
| really cheap, as an insurance policy!
| uses wrote:
| What did they end up doing with the escape key?
| ErikCorry wrote:
| I'm guessing it's one of the new ones in the center (between G
| and H).
|
| I only use escape in vim though, and there I mapped the jk key
| combination to escape instead. (:map! jk <esc>) I'm trying to
| stop using the physical escape key completely. If it's not
| where I expect it that will go faster.
|
| The function keys do almost nothing in Linux so I won't miss
| them.
|
| My main regret with my Advantage keyboard is that I should have
| bought it 20 years earlier. So I could totally see myself
| getting this. Even if I think 3.2 pounds is a little on the
| heavy side.
| vl wrote:
| It in the left column instead of CapsLock.
|
| There is layout photo in one of the FAQ answers.
| aredplug wrote:
| To counter the stories of "an ergonomic keyboard" fixed my health
| issue...
|
| I had back pain for a few years. After physio and other
| improvements I tried an Ergodox and that didn't fix it.
| gentle wrote:
| I love my Kinesis Advantage and I credit it with saving my elbows
| 15 years ago.
|
| These look great, but I'd definitely be worried about the little
| stands standing up to constant use.
| acjohnson55 wrote:
| Very cool. If this were out a year ago, I may have gone for it
| instead of my Moonlander. The curved keywells is big
| differentiator. It would have been hard to have committed to a
| switch style, though. It took me some trial and error to settle
| on my Zilents.
| dsr_ wrote:
| I don't understand the surrounding decisions.
|
| Differentiating by wired/wireless makes sense.
|
| Using two different programming systems? No.
|
| ZMK instead of adding BT support to QMK? Why?
|
| RGB underglow but not individually programmable key backlights?
|
| For the money they are charging, all of these things should have
| been extremely easy decisions. Anyone have insight?
| Sholmesy wrote:
| The go to for the ErgoMechKeyboards realm seems to be to use
| ZMK for these sorts of things. Power consumption and
| customization of certain things is better supported.
|
| Individually programmable key backlights is nice, but imo a
| gimmick. That being said I never use backlights on a laptop
| keyboard, or mech keyboard, so I don't know what the use case
| for wanting ur Q to light up in a colour different to your W
| key would be.
|
| Also this board is not _that_ expensive.
| dsr_ wrote:
| Underglow of any kind is a gimmick, but backlights,
| programmable or not, are useful in low-light situations, to
| let you see where that key that you rarely use actually is.
|
| You generally don't want Q to light up different from W, but
| you might want to have a low-level green glow by default and
| slightly brighter colors to distinguish keys around the
| periphery.
| SloopJon wrote:
| I very much like backlit keys. My Max Keyboard Blackbird is
| red, which is just right at its dimmest, although when the
| side panels reset I always turn them back off.
|
| On the Kinesis Freestyle Edge, I actually like the per-key
| RGB lighting as well. Most of the alphanumeric and
| punctuation keys are red, the home keys are green, and the
| rest are blue. I also turn off the backlight for keys that
| I don't use, like PRTSC. It looks gaudy as hell, but I feel
| like it makes it easier to find certain keys in the
| Freestyle's slightly unusual layout, and to come back to
| home position.
|
| The other thing I like to do with RGB lighting is to make
| different layouts different colors--QWERTY is all blue to
| distinguish it from my multi-color Dvorak.
| Palomides wrote:
| > ZMK instead of adding BT support to QMK?
|
| speculation, but I'm pretty confident: ZMK is MIT licensed and
| QMK is GPL
| twalla wrote:
| ZMK is built on top of Zephyr while QMK is built on top of
| ChibiOS - I'm not super familiar with the specifics but it's
| my understanding that the way ZMK/Zephyr handles bluetooth
| and matrix scanning is like an order of magnitude more energy
| efficient.
| hsbauauvhabzb wrote:
| I don't plan on the keyboard but I'll chime in that per key
| LEDs are a lifesaver when it comes to learning custom layers.
|
| My workmates gaming keyboard led patterns That change with
| every key press drive me nuts, though.
| chrsig wrote:
| My best guess is that they're not important decisions to their
| target audience.
|
| I've been using a kinesis advantage for years, and I'm
| seriously considering getting one of these.
|
| I do not at all care about ZMK vs QMK -- I don't even know why
| I should care.
|
| RGB underglow? I don't even care that it's there, let alone
| programmable key backlights.
|
| I care about ergonomics. The selling point is the split, and
| bluetooth/wireless capability, on top of all the existing
| ergonomic benefits.
| tbenst wrote:
| I had to look it up too, but big drawback is ZMK does not yet
| support macros. So only the Advantage360 supports macros for
| now, the Advantage360 Professional does not
| (https://zmk.dev/docs)
| grumpyprole wrote:
| As a heavy user of macros, looks like I'd want to avoid the
| ZMK version then. It's a shame, as Bluetooth could be
| useful.
| ebruchez wrote:
| > ZMK instead of adding BT support to QMK? Why?
|
| QMK is licensed under the GPL, which disallows linking with
| proprietary Bluetooth stacks. That might be one reason.
| almog wrote:
| I've using a Kinesis Advantage for 10 years now. I got my Kinesis
| after switching to Dvorak, which maybe (maybe) improved my typing
| speed, but more importantly -- I had to re-learn how to type, and
| get rid of all the quirks that come with learning how to type by
| yourself very early in one's life.
|
| That is to say, it made the transition to Kinesis Advantage a
| breeze.
|
| I cannot speak for how its ergonomic might or might not translate
| into helping with RSI, but having constant back/neck/other joints
| pains since I was 15, one change that I introduced to my
| (variable height) desk last year was, at least for me, more
| dramatic than any other: I installed a keyboard drawer, which
| enable me to align my Mirra's arm rest with the keyboard (my desk
| and most other variable height desks do not go low enough to
| allow that).
|
| The Advantage 360 could improve my setup as and I might get it
| just to be able to rest my arms at my shoulders natural width,
| which for me should be slightly wider than the regular Advantage.
| jakub_g wrote:
| Semi-related:
|
| I've had a basic ergo keyboard (MS sculpt ergonomic) for a while
| and it's much much better than regular keyboards;
|
| However I think all ergo keyboard companies are missing the point
| those days:
|
| "Just-a-keyboard" doesn't cut it anymore in the world of laptops.
| I want an ergonomic keyboard _with a built-in Macbook-class
| touchpad, or ThinkPad-class trackpoint + three buttons_. (I know
| it 's tricky, especially with split keybord; conceptually it
| feels it almost can't be done).
|
| Unfortunately most of software those days has pretty limited
| functionality if you want to use it 100% with a keyboard only.
| And no matter what best keyboard you have, adding a trackpad or
| mouse to it is just clunky and slows you down due to endless
| context-switching.
|
| Are there any examples of ergo keyboard with built-in pointing
| device? I never found any.
| toyg wrote:
| The touchpad is an ergo-killer. It's just bad for your wrists
| to use it for any significant amount of time. It would be silly
| to include it in an ergo keyboard. The trackpoint is likely to
| be still covered by some IBM patents, and nobody uses it
| anyway.
|
| If you really want a trackpad, get an Apple one and drop it in
| the middle of your split keyboard. It will still be bad for
| your wrists though.
| jakub_g wrote:
| I do have external Apple touchpad but dropping it in front of
| the keyboard sucks hard. It is on lower level than keyboard
| and ergonomy is much worse than using it with Macbook laptop
| (I mostly use it for two/three finger swiping). Ideal
| touchpad would be non-flat and nicely integrated with the
| curve of ergo keyboard (I know, sounds difficult with split
| keyboard).
| foxfluff wrote:
| How about a pointing device with a built-in keyboard? IMO it
| sucks but here you go: https://www.keymouse.com/
|
| I'm adding analog thumbsticks (the style you'd find e.g. on a
| playstation controller) to my split keyboard. I expect them to
| suck too but maybe 0.5% less than the nipple on thinkpad
| keyboards. That one keeps tempting me because it's in a
| convenient positoin but it just drives me mad every time I try
| to get anything done with it.
| GiorgioG wrote:
| I love my Kinesis Advantage. I go back and forth between it and
| my other non-ergo keyboards (at the moment it's a DasKeyboard).
| Somehow I managed to lose the CTRL keycap while the Kinesis was
| storage in my attic. I emailed Kinesis and got a response back
| within minutes - they're sending me a new keycap for the cost of
| shipping / handling ($7). Can't beat the responsiveness or the
| fact that they didn't ask me to buy an entire keyboard keycap set
| ($40-50).
|
| When my Advantage gives out, I'll likely get a 360. They are
| expensive, but they are built to last in my experience (I bought
| my first PS/2 Kinesis keyboard 20+ years ago when I did email
| tech support for Iomega (Zip drives - hundreds of emails a day),
| had it for 10 years, sold it for half of what I paid for it) and
| bought the USB version of the Advantage that I still use today.
| Tepix wrote:
| Looks really great! How does it compare with the Keyboardio Model
| 01/100? I think i like the sculpted shape better on the Kinesis,
| otoh the keycaps on the Keyboardio seem nicer
| brainlessdev wrote:
| I wonder if an ISO version will become available (with a <> key
| next to the left shift key).
|
| It has never been the case for their other models :(
| VectorLock wrote:
| I've been waiting a long time for this and getting hyped at their
| Twitter drip feed but damn preorders open December 20th for
| potential delivery in MAY.
| Smoofer wrote:
| Yeah, I was very close to buying an Advantage 2 in the last
| week. Saw this, got super excited, then realized it wouldn't be
| in my hands for another 5 months
| tcoff91 wrote:
| I own an advantage 2 and I will be smashing that pre-order
| button. I love my advantage2 so much, and this new 360 looks
| even better!
| inquist wrote:
| FWIW I've been quite happy with the ZSA Moonlander
| https://www.zsa.io/moonlander
| linsomniac wrote:
| I was pretty hot on getting the Moonlander when it first came
| out, but I really wanted unlabeled keys. They now offer that,
| but I'm having a hard time committing to spending the money
| when I'm so happy with my ErgoDox Ez.
|
| Anyone made that switch that can compare/contrast?
| warp wrote:
| I have no experience with the ErgoDox, and loved the
| Moonlander when I first received it. Over time I've grown to
| dislike the thumb clusters, they're too far away when tented,
| making only the inner thumb button easily reachable.
|
| (I'm still using it every day for work, but want to try
| something else soon, probably a Kyria).
| tylerscott wrote:
| I also have both and prefer the Moonlander. I like the
| adjustable thumb keys, integrated wrist supports, and smaller
| size compared to the Ez. That said, the Ez is a GREAT
| keyboard.
| nahtnam wrote:
| I've had both. I find that the moonlander is a LOT smaller,
| and feels a bit better because the wrist-rests are integrated
| (that was probably my biggest annoyance with the EZ). I was
| able to sell my EZ for about 250, so the moonlander
| realistically cost me about 150. The moonlander is about 25%
| better than the EZ (note: there are a few keys missing) and
| overall I'm happy with my upgrade
| jrockway wrote:
| I've used both the Ergodox and Moonlander. In general, I
| think both keyboards have poor thumb clusters. The Moonlander
| has the big red buttons that you can't press while keeping
| your hands in normal typing position. The Ergodox has the 4
| 1U keys that are also hard to press.
|
| The Ergodox has 1.5U keys between the hands (like to the
| right of T,G,B, and to the left of Y,H,N), while the
| moonlander just has 1U keys next to T,G and Y,H. I found the
| 1.5U keys much easier to press than the 1U keys. (Try typing
| "RGB" on a QWERTY keyboard; it's really not that easy to make
| your pointer finger responsible for 12 equally-sized keys.)
| As a result, I moved backspace from the 1.5U key next to H,N
| to a thumb key. The thumb isn't as fast for rapid motions as
| the pointer finger is, so I notice backspace being a little
| more cumbersome than necessary. But, I don't really think
| about it anymore, so it's not a big deal. (I do see my usage
| of the 1U keys falling off, though. I used have _- and =+ on
| them, and I find myself going for shift-= instead of the
| dedicated + key. I think that's because my Ergodox didn't
| have a + key, that was backspace, and I never learned it.)
|
| Both the Ergodox EZ and Moonlander have godawful tenting. But
| the Moonlander lets you fix it because it has an array of
| threaded inserts on the back that you can screw a proper tent
| to. I use this thing
| https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4769961 and love it.
|
| Generally the Moonlander is quite appealing. I use it every
| day and it's great. (I did replace the switches with Zilents.
| I always use weird switches on my keyboards.) But I'm looking
| at the Advantage 360 and think they've done a really job, so
| it's definitely a third option to consider.
|
| Finally, I've experimented with other designs. I made a 107
| key keyboard (I call it the Ergorocks 107) that is Ergodox-
| like, but has 3 1U switches for the thumb clusters, a number
| pad in the middle, and F keys above the number keys. I fucked
| up the angle of the thumb keys, and found the numpad in the
| middle hard to use. I made it take a standard keyset, though,
| so you don't have to hunt for "Ergo" keysets. You can use any
| normal keyset! If this is interesting to anyone, I might make
| a second iteration with the bugs fixed. (It's entirely 3D
| printed. Don't let people tell you 3D printed keyboards are
| bad, they're great. PLA is honestly a great keyboard
| material; very rigid and pretty quiet.)
| platz wrote:
| whats the difference between that and an ergodox
| Jenk wrote:
| Biggest difference is the thumbcluster can be tilted.
| Otherise the layout is minimally different.
|
| e: also switches are hotswappable on the Moonlander, they are
| fixed (soldered)on the Ergodox iirc.
|
| e2: They are hotswappable on the EZ :)
| samgranieri wrote:
| Switches are hotswappable on an ergodox ez. I bought one
| last year to get some quiet tactile switches, and it's been
| really good so far. Earlier versions of the ergodox are
| probably what you're thinking of
| astuyvenberg wrote:
| +1 I really do like my new Moonlander, which I purchased in
| November. However, as a former Kinesis Advantage user, I miss
| the contoured shape, I think it helped a lot with carpal pain.
|
| That said, I'm not sure I can justify another keyboard.
| karmajunkie wrote:
| ok, could you expand on your experiences with both? i'm a
| longtime kinesis user (like, LONG time--i got rid of one with
| an AT connector a few years ago) and i've been really toying
| with the idea of switching. what are the pros and cons you've
| experienced?
| sulam wrote:
| I've used both extensively and fully switched from the
| Kinesis Adv2 to the Moonlander. I believe what gp is
| referring to is the (obvious) structural difference between
| the two. With the Advantage 2, your hands are largely
| resting on the frame of the keyboard. With the Moonlander
| your wrists are either poised above whatever surface you
| have the Moonlander on or resting directly on it. For me,
| and I suspect most people, that's simply my desk. At that
| point the height of your arm with respect to your desk
| becomes very critical to avoid your wrists getting too far
| from a neutral position.
| badlucklottery wrote:
| Not OP but the issue for me moving from a scooped keyboard
| (Kinesis) to a flat one (Ergodox) was reaching the
| top/bottom row comfortably.
|
| On a flat keyboard, hitting that top row (especially edge
| keys like the 5 and 6) required either moving my entire
| hand or doing some weird reaching motion. And I wear a 4XL
| glove so I don't even know how other people deal with the
| top row at all. Being able to not move your hands as much
| doesn't sound like a big thing but it helped a lot with my
| wrist issues because I can find a comfortable position when
| I get started and never leave it until I stand up.
|
| I'm currently on a scooped and fully split KB from
| bastardkb.com which is kind of the best of both worlds
| (scooped for reach, split for my shoulders, and custom
| firmware so I can use less keys overall). But if Kinesis
| offers that out-of-the-box it's a pretty easy choice for my
| next keyboard.
| aseipp wrote:
| Yeah, the bowl shape is absolutely the missing piece on my
| Moonlander. It is otherwise perfect in nearly every other
| way, and the flexibility from QMK is unmatched. But I don't
| know how you can reconcile it with its low profile; the
| Moonlander looks a lot nicer to throw in my bag than the 360
| when you pull the wings in...
|
| I agree; I can't justify yet another keyboard. But there's
| the continuous itch to go ham and design my own split contour
| keyboard with QMK...
|
| (For anyone reading this, you literally can't go wrong with
| either of these keyboards and they'll last 10+ years, so get
| one if you can.)
| mxmilkiib wrote:
| I got a extra set of legs from ZSA (was cheaper in the
| Ergodox store than the Moonlander store) which allows
| putting the thumb pads on the desk, plus MT3 profile caps,
| both of which add to a somewhat a finger helping curve;
|
| https://i.imgur.com/6H3vZoY.jpg
|
| Thinking about getting on the Dactyl or similar train
| eventually, maybe in around a decade or so :)
| jcadam wrote:
| Yep, love my Moonlander - it has really helped with my wrist
| issues. The only trouble I have is when I have to switch to a
| standard keyboard (e.g., on a laptop).
| nullwarp wrote:
| Yeah this kills me too, I use layering so much that switching
| to a standard keyboard is borderline crippling.
|
| Still worth it though
| sleepybrett wrote:
| I've been using the Kinesis Advantage (and it's kin) since
| 2000. I can switch back and forth to standard boards
| without losing speed or making errors. There are several
| replacement controllers for the Advantage that will let you
| use QMK and other custom firmwares.
| gundmc wrote:
| My only complaint with the moonlander is that you can't use the
| tenting at all if you have the thumb cluster tilted upwards.
| jcadam wrote:
| I didn't know the thumb cluster lifted upwards. Just tried it
| on mine, wow is that uncomfortable.
| sulam wrote:
| It isn't true for me, but what the ZSA folks point out is
| that for small hands you may need it tilted upwards to make
| it natural to reach the thumb cluster.
| ashton314 wrote:
| I have a 3D printed leg to do that. They even showcase it
| here on their website:
| https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/printables/
| wildrhythms wrote:
| Did the Moonlander take some getting used to with the non-
| staggered key layout?
| OmahaBoy69 wrote:
| I have the Ergodox EZ, so similar to the Moonlander. It took
| me about a full workweek to use it without looking at the
| keyboard, and another week to type at a competent speed. That
| said, after three years of ownership, I still can't type as
| fast as I can on my MacBook's keyboard (last I checked: 65wpm
| with the Ergodox, 109wpm with the MacBook).
|
| Still totally worth it.
| yla92 wrote:
| Took me some time to get used to it. And I also had to do
| lots of layout customization as well.
| acjohnson55 wrote:
| Moonlander user here -- sort of, but not really. One of the
| reasons I bought it was the non-staggered keys, and I'd say
| it met my expectations. All the keys off the home row just
| seem a little closer.
| sulam wrote:
| I had been using the Kinesis Advantage 2 and for me there was
| almost no adjustment time. It did take me quite a while (two
| weeks) to get used to the Kinesis.
| samgranieri wrote:
| This keyboard looks like Kinesis's answer to the moonlander
| Findecanor wrote:
| I'd say that it is more their response to the Dactyl[1] and
| the Dactyl Manuform[2] which is similar to Kinesis but split.
| Those started as open source DIY keyboards, and originally
| you had to 3D-print, hand-wire, solder and program yourself,
| but ready-made ones are available now.
|
| 1. <http://xahlee.info/kbd/dactyl_keyboard.html>
|
| 2. <https://ohkeycaps.com/products/built-to-order-dactyl-
| manufor...>
| sleepybrett wrote:
| IMO moonlander, ergodox, etc .. all just shitty Advantages.
| The only thing that comes close in the DIY/Enthusiast
| community is the Dactyl. Nothing beats the contour.
| tadfisher wrote:
| Except keyboard trays.
| emptysongglass wrote:
| There's also the MoErgo Glove80 coming soon [1]
|
| [1] https://www.moergo.com
| sudhirj wrote:
| I have one, but it's in a drawer now because I was finding it
| too difficult to switch between it and a normal laptop
| keyboard. I want a split keyboard that has all the keys in the
| same places, so muscle memory doesn't need to adapt. I touch
| type, so the same fingers just need to find the same keys in
| the same relative positions. Mainlander does not do that, and I
| can't find the layout or top view zoomable photos for this one
| :-/
| ianleeclark wrote:
| The mistel barocco is an option. You can even combine the two
| sides of the keyboard without noticing that it could be
| seperable.
| zbuf wrote:
| And its also distinctive because you can (with some
| caveats) use separate USB cables to each side, rather than
| a cable spanning the two parts. That works really well for
| me.
| Too wrote:
| I switched to Microsoft Sculpt for this reason. Muscle memory
| is fully compatible with a laptop keyboard. Except it's much
| more comfortable, due to the tilt, width and superb tactile
| feeling for such low-travel keys. Totally took away all my
| wrist pains.
|
| As a bonus it doesn't look like a science-lab on your desk,
| like a lot of other ergonomic keyboards do. Got to say this
| new Advantage 360 has a really nice look though.
| nickm12 wrote:
| Found this through url hacking: https://kinesis-ergo.com/wp-
| content/uploads/Adv360-Overhead_...
| sudhirj wrote:
| Ooooh. Like this https://kinesis-
| ergo.com/keyboards/freestyle-pro-keyboard/
|
| I want that but curved a bit and tented, _without_ a change
| in layout.
| jamamp wrote:
| There's a ~$30 add-on accessory to add tenting support in
| 5deg, 10deg, and 15deg positions. Same as with the
| Freestyle Edge mentioned in the other comment, for the
| newer, gaming-focused keyboard. I find it to be the best
| part of having a split keyboard.
| toyg wrote:
| That's the old version, you want this:
| https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/edge/
|
| Despite the gaming moniker, it's actually their best
| professional-grade keyboard, with better support for macros
| and backlighting.
| harha wrote:
| I just wish they'd make non-gaming styled keycaps, with a
| font like the ones on my MacBook.
| hwbehrens wrote:
| You might also check out the Dygma Raise, which follows a
| similar vein as the Moonlander but keeps the staggered
| layout.
| ianai wrote:
| What are the odds the pre-orders will be robbed by bots in a few
| seconds?
| jagger27 wrote:
| That seems unlikely, and it's not really how Drop usually
| works. They collect pre-order payments before manufacturing.
| This is probably an unlimited group buy.
|
| Pre-oders on Drop.com usually stay open for a month or longer.
| gorbachev wrote:
| There are only 360 units on sale, total.
| jagger27 wrote:
| Oh, that's a bummer.
| ianai wrote:
| Oh, awesome, that's a relief! The bluetooth version does seem
| pretty couch surf friendly...maybe I'll get one.
| tbenst wrote:
| Love my Advantage2, and only complaint is the USB cable has
| insufficient strain relief, and I've already replaced two cables,
| almost once a year. So bluetooth is a welcome sight.
|
| Am I the only one that prefers the monolith body? I typically
| rest my keyboard on my knees when typing, which is difficult for
| a split layout
| User23 wrote:
| If you hold up your empty hand you will find that your thumb can
| comfortably oppose any of your other four fingers in a pincer
| grip. This suggests that a board should have at least four keys
| that can be pressed with the thumb while the fingers type without
| any strain whatsoever.
|
| My ideal keyboard would be shaped to accommodate the neutral
| state of the hand. Hitting modifier and a key should feel as
| comfortable as a natural pincer grip. I certainly don't want to
| use my weakest finger to hold a modifier key, even if it's on the
| home row. I'd try to squeeze a fifth thumb key in if it could be
| ergonomic, so as to have control, meta, super, shift, and space
| all on the thumb.
|
| The Kinesis Advantage 2 comes closer than any other board I've
| used. I'm not entirely satisfied with the lack of adjustability
| of the thumb cluster though. Not everyone has the same size hands
| after all. It's fairly comfortable at lap level though.
| tinbucket wrote:
| I wonder why they're using Gateron switches rather than Cherry
| ones? Is it just about cutting costs, or is there a solid
| technical reason for using clones rather than the originals?
| nvarsj wrote:
| Demand most likely. Lots of people think the clones like
| gateron are superior to cherries.
| Sholmesy wrote:
| Gateron are in no way inferior to Cherry. They struggle with
| the knock-off branding but have made some pretty popular
| switches in the past 5 years.
| eggy wrote:
| I love Gateron Oranges. I've had both Cherry Browns and the
| Gateron Browns, and I actually prefer the Gaterons. I
| couldn't give you a quantitative answer, but I swapped them
| into the same hot-swappable keyboard and I liked the
| Gaterons. I found the Orange Gaterons, and I am sticking with
| them.
| regus wrote:
| Wow I'm excited to try this! I use a kinesis split keyboard. I
| like it but it is a bit bulky and has a bunch of keys I never
| use. I love that it is split and tented, both of these aspects
| helped with my shoulder and arm pain.
|
| I tried to use the advantage 2 but because it was neither split
| nor tented it hurt my shoulder and arm so much that I couldn't
| use.
|
| This seems like the best of both worlds.
|
| I was considering building a corne keyboard but now I can try
| this instead.
| porker wrote:
| Has anyone seen a printable mockup for this keyboard layout yet?
| I've found (1) invaluable for ruling out which layouts are too
| large for my hands e.g. the Moonlander. This keyboard looks
| excellent - but I want to make sure I won't be overstretching if
| I get it.
|
| 1. https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/
| brailsafe wrote:
| It's great to see a ton of options for ergo mechanical keyboards
| out there now, but anyone have any suggestions for the best
| competitors/replacements for the Microsoft Sculpt? I used to
| think Mechanical key switches were the best, but in retrospect I
| must have been brainwashed by elitists. Full depth keys are
| irritating to use, and most switches are too loud. I love the
| ten-keyless, chiclet, reverse tilt style of the Sculpt, but I
| hear they break down quickly and aren't made anymore. I can't
| imagine myself using a full-depth keyboard again.
| mahmoudhossam wrote:
| There are low-profile mechanical ones, and with a red or a
| black type mechanical switch you won't feel much of a
| difference (but with better reliability).
| mlazos wrote:
| This looks great! I'm happy with my ergodox ez, but now that
| kinesis has a split keyboard with qmk support it's nice to see
| the competition in this space.
| MrPowers wrote:
| Kinesis Advantage 2 is great, but it's massive and hard to travel
| with. Looks like the 360 might be a bit easier to travel with.
|
| The Kinesis Advantage 2 fits a Magic Trackpad perfectly right in
| the middle of the keyboard. This lets you perform mouse actions
| with you right and left hands.
|
| Emacs keybindings never made sense to me till I tried them with
| the Kinesis. I feel like Emacs sucks on a standard Mac keyboard
| and is awesome with a Kinesis. See here for a blog post on the
| topic if you're interested in learning more:
| https://mungingdata.com/emacs/learning-emacs-keybindings-aft...
|
| It takes a while to get used to the keyboard layout, but only
| takes a week to get fully productive. You're eventually able to
| train your brain to operate fluently on Kinesis & Macbook key
| layouts without any extra thinking. It's a great investment if
| you're willing to put in a bit of effort.
| andreilys wrote:
| The Magic Trackpad trick is gold! I did the same thing with my
| advantage 2 keyboard by taping it down with adhesive tape and
| it's been an absolute godsend.
|
| I've more or less stopped using a mouse and rely on keyboard
| shortcuts, when those fail I have the trackpad within striking
| distance.
| tcoff91 wrote:
| I bet the kinesis foot pedals would take emacs to the next
| level too. I use spacemacs in evil mode so I never bothered
| having to learn all those key chording things for emacs.
| johanvts wrote:
| I got the pedal for my Advantage, but it is too small/light
| to really be useful, I tried mapping it to Ctrl but went back
| almost immediately.
| karmajunkie wrote:
| i have one, but honestly never could make myself get into
| using it. ymmv but i would not make a decision around the
| keyboard based on that
| oofbey wrote:
| I rely heavily on the foot pedal. The single-pedal is too
| light and really wants to be bolted to something heavy so it
| doesn't slide around. The triple-food pedal is much nicer,
| just because it's heavy and stays put. I map all three foot-
| buttons to the same thing.
| complexworld wrote:
| I used the triple-foot pedal for about 1.5 years. I now
| have chronic discomfort in my left foot; the one I used for
| the foot pedal. Of course it might be a coincidence, or it
| could be a RSI from using the foot pedal.
| foxfluff wrote:
| I have a kinesis advantage pro with foot pedal but the pedal
| just sucks to use. Foot is way too big and clumsy to keep
| pace with fingers, plus it forces you to sit in fixed
| position or fiddle with the pedal all the time to try and
| keep it in a comfortable position (trying to use the pedal
| shows how much I shift around in the chair during the day,
| nevermind when using a balance chair on wheels).
| Groxx wrote:
| I just did this Magic Trackpad thing on mine, I really like it.
| It's in the perfect location.
|
| Split hands though? Bluetooth? This is an instant-buy for me.
| ssvss wrote:
| I had this setup for a while, but I had a habit of moving
| just the index finger, instead of the whole wrist. This
| caused some inflammation/swelling in the cartilage/muscle
| between the index and middle finger, so I had to abandon the
| setup.
| wildrhythms wrote:
| I have the Kinesis Freestyle 2 and, while the layout is good, I
| really dislike how the keys feel- very mushy, way too much
| travel distance, and many keys require moving my entire hand
| from the home row to properly depress because they're very
| resistant to non-perpendicular force.
|
| What I really want is an ergo keyboard with Macbook/laptop
| style low-travel keys.
| maxyurk wrote:
| You can try some custom keyboard with low profile switches.
| There are many open source ones if you're up for the task.
| One option is cornish zen https://lowprokb.ca/products/corne-
| ish-zen-2 I built corne light v2 with choc v2 for my personal
| use.
| conqueso wrote:
| Check out the Microsoft Surface Ergonomic keyboard
| toyg wrote:
| Freestyle Pro and Edge now have mechanical switches, which
| are better than the membrane of the Freestyle and Freestyle
| 2. With the Edge you can even choose the MX Speed Silver, for
| much shorter travel.
| cmauniada wrote:
| I was using the magic trackpad, but due to pain in the back of
| my wrist I had to abandon it entirely and switch over to a
| logitech trackman mouse (same spot, right in the middle of the
| keyboard).
| eckesicle wrote:
| I've never used or tried any ergonomic keyboards.
|
| Last time I looked into it ~10 years ago I dismissed them since
| there didn't seem to be sufficient evidence to support the bold
| claims they made.
|
| What does it look like these days? Do these keyboard work? Is it
| worth switching from a traditional qwerty mechanical keyboard?
| actually_a_dog wrote:
| I can tell you for a fact that my Microsoft Ergo Sculpt
| instantly alleviated some wrist pain I was having that I
| thought might end up ending my career.
| injidup wrote:
| I've had a kinesis advantage pro ( same as in article but single
| not split ) for some 15 years. It's awesome and my only complaint
| was that my hands were too close together. I think I might
| upgrade to this.
| jeffs4271 wrote:
| Nice. I've been a Kinesis user for 25 years. In the 90s I added
| the Silicon Graphics PS/2 driver to IRIX and I had a budget for
| testing. I had an RSI problems. I spent most of the budget on a a
| Kinesis and a data hand. It has been great for helping me manage
| my RSI issues. Still a process to manage it.
|
| I do have an ErgoDox to really try first. Know it is an
| adjustment. But it is hard not to try this...
| pc86 wrote:
| The flatness of the ErgoDox gives me pause when compared to
| something like a Kinesis or a Dactyl. I think the Moonlander is
| gorgeous but similarly it seems like it's "a little" ergonomic
| but not quite at the Kinesis/Dactyl level. But I really think
| my next keyboard will be one of these split models, just not
| sure which one yet.
| tylermenezes wrote:
| In addition to all the comments from Advantage fans here, I also
| wanted to add that Kinesis has been an awesome company. I tweeted
| about some mods I made to my Advantage keyboard a long time ago,
| and they invited me to their office and donated a bunch of
| keyboards to the nonprofit I work for, to give as prizes to
| students (even before they launched the gaming-focused brand).
| alanbernstein wrote:
| Would you care to share a link or describe your mods?
| tylermenezes wrote:
| I delete my really old tweets, but it was actually to make
| the Advantage Bluetooth-enabled!
|
| I added a Bluetooth keyboard converter, LiPo, and charge
| controller inside the case.
|
| Unfortunately the Sparkfun documentation for the charge
| controller implied that it would prevent undervolting which
| wasn't true, and the battery died. They fixed the
| documentation but wouldn't send me a replacement battery. I
| didn't have the money for a new one at the time and reverted
| it.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| Installed this in one of my advantage 2s about 9 months
| ago. Great mod. https://github.com/wizarddata/Blue-Wizard-
| Mod
| mike_h wrote:
| Every interaction I've had with them over 15 years has been
| above-and-beyond helpful. It's been so nice to see the market
| catch on to them.
| FullyFunctional wrote:
| Base version gets PBT keycaps (yesss!) and Pro gets ABS (buuuh)
| Sadly not a typo. Hopefully the PBT set is available separately
| or (pretty please) PMK will make a custom run of the Ice-Cap.
| Sholmesy wrote:
| Agreed, should just be an option in the cart. The PBT vs ABS
| conflict is the keyboard equivilant of Vim vs Emacs
| swinglock wrote:
| No one that knows of PBT prefers ABS.
| Sholmesy wrote:
| GMK sets are all ABS.
|
| They have a different sound & feel, and the colorways
| achievable are more vibrant.
|
| There are reasons for ABS
| powerset wrote:
| The FAQ makes it sound like it's an option, at least I hope so.
|
| https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage360/#faqs
|
| "Which keycaps should I get? This one is easy...
|
| Dye-Sublimation PBT: These are premium keycaps that are
| resistant to sheen and and fade. If you don't plan to use the
| backlighting then this is the set you want. You have a choice
| of Dvorak or QWERTY legends. Shine-Through ABS: If you want to
| work in a low-light environment you'll need to select these if
| you want to be able to read the key legends. This set is only
| available with QWERTY legends at this time."
| db65edfc7996 wrote:
| Sadly, no dedicated F-row. I would even settle for a subset of
| keys that aligned with the columns. I do not consider layers an
| adequate replacement.
|
| Happy to see they are moving away from their own software
| configuration. Not a fan of the software interface on the
| Freestyle Pro. More than once I have gotten myself into a loop
| where I am unsure which function mode is activated and how to
| switch back to what I want.
|
| I am still likely to get this once it is out, but still not the
| "end game" keyboard of my dreams.
| donatj wrote:
| For what it's worth I really hate the dinky little F keys on my
| Kinesis Advantage 2, they're hard to hit, awkwardly positioned
| and feel gross. F8 and F9 are entirely impossible to hit
| without moving your entire hand.
|
| I consider this an upgrade. I personally think layer beats any
| keys I can't hit without taking my hands off home row.
|
| That said my other main daily driver is an HHKB so I'm pretty
| used to switching layer for F keys.
| avgcorrection wrote:
| Personally I would not get a smaller (fewer keys) keyboard if
| that meant giving up keys like the F1 to F12 keys. I'm fine
| with having that home row option via layers and Vim and
| whatnot, but _not_ having normal keys is just a downgrade in
| my opinion. Some applications want to use funky key combos,
| and I don't want to make contortions in order to use them;
| the key combos might be uncomfortable enough on a regular
| keyboard where you don't have to use some "F" key to access
| something basic like the arrow keys or "Home".
|
| On the whole the "home row" insistence seems like a bit of an
| obsession at times. It's often nice, comfortable, and
| efficient, but I refuse to believe that anyone ever got hurt
| (RSI and all that) by moving their hands to the nav cluster
| every once in a while. (Or else all those piano players must
| be in some _real_ trouble.)
|
| I like the tenkeyless formfactor. Then I get a standard
| keyboard minus the numpad. And I can use a dedicated numpad
| if I need it.
| gorbachev wrote:
| I use 65% keyboards almost exclusively these days. No numpad,
| pgdn/up/home/end cluster or function key row.
|
| Function keys are on the number row with a Fn modifier (Fn+1
| for F1).
|
| You get used to it in about half an hour. It becomes second
| nature in less than a week.
|
| It makes the keyboard much more compact, which is definitely a
| plus. Less hand movement, less deskspace consumed, lighter.
| fomine3 wrote:
| It's good to reduce keyboard width because we need to put
| pointing device somewhere near. But reducing height isn't
| sense for me because vertical space isn't matter at all. I
| don't strongly need F1-12 keys but prefer to have because
| nothing is harmed by having dedicated keys.
| sulam wrote:
| If you haven't, you really should check out the Moonlander
| that's referred to elsewhere in this thread. I switched to it
| from a Kinesis Advantage 2 and couldn't be happier.
| db65edfc7996 wrote:
| The Moonlander is also missing F-keys?
|
| People can swear up and down how intuitive and natural layers
| are, but I do not care. If there is ever a decision to be
| made between more and fewer keys, I always want to default to
| more.
| sulam wrote:
| You can solve this without layers on the Moonlander, or any
| keyboard that allows you to load your own firmware.
|
| For instance, you could configure your number keys to have
| a "press and hold" generate the corresponding F key. The
| 'hold' doesn't have to be very long to still easily
| distinguish it from "normal" typing.
|
| You could also make it a key combo very easily. Anyone who
| doesn't like key combos should take up a war against
| !@#$%^&*()+_?:<>{} and their friends.
| Too wrote:
| Hold? No thanks. How does that work when you are
| debugging code and have to repeatedly press the step over
| button. Both VS and IntellJ use F-keys as default for
| this. With lots of shift-modifiers already, to toggle
| step in, over, out.
| avgcorrection wrote:
| Keyboard people are a bit too enthusiastic about cutting
| out a few dozen keys only to add them back in layers.
| rgoulter wrote:
| Surely you don't expect people using keyboards without
| dedicated function keys (or number rows) are aiming to
| never need to use those keys?
|
| The trade-off from fewer keys is reduced hand movement (&
| a smaller keyboard, cheaper to buy switches for, etc.),
| at the cost of additional complexity of use, & it not
| really being easy for anyone else to use your keyboard.
|
| It seems reasonable either way to prefer one or the
| other. -- I suspect that most of the people enthusiastic
| about the smaller keyboard layouts are also into
| keyboard-driven workflows, and are developers who also
| frequently need to use the symbols accessed using layers.
| avgcorrection wrote:
| > Surely you don't expect people using keyboards without
| dedicated function keys (or number rows) are aiming to
| never need to use those keys?
|
| I could imagine that some people never use the function
| keys. Or never use the numpad keys. To some people they
| might be completely useless... Which would make a smaller
| keyboard understandable.
|
| Now, people who do need all those keys and yet still go
| for a smaller keyboard is harder for me to understand. :)
|
| > The trade-off from fewer keys is reduced hand movement
| (& a smaller keyboard, cheaper to buy switches for,
| etc.), at the cost of additional complexity of use, & it
| not really being easy for anyone else to use your
| keyboard.
|
| The trade-offs seem a bit one-sided. Hand movements are
| not a big deal unless you are going constantly back and
| forth between the main part and the nav cluster or the
| numpad. And all of these custom keyboards with their 60%,
| 67.5%, etc. sizes are already so... boutique and
| expensive that I don't think that people are forfeiting a
| dozen or so keys in order to save some money.
| rgoulter wrote:
| > I could imagine that some people never use the function
| keys. Or never use the numpad keys. To some people they
| might be completely useless... Which would make a smaller
| keyboard understandable. > > Now, people who do need all
| those keys and yet still go for a smaller keyboard is
| harder for me to understand. :)
|
| Right, I don't think anyone goes "I need these keys, I
| should get a smaller keyboard".
|
| But, no one is saying "I don't need those keys, I can use
| a smaller keyboard". e.g. 40% keyboards like the planck
| lack a number row, as well as lacking a number pad; of
| course they'll have to have access to type in numbers
| somehow.
|
| > boutique and expensive that I don't think that people
| are forfeiting a dozen or so keys in order to save some
| money.
|
| Right, I don't think it's a persuasive/compelling point;
| but it is a benefit. Comparing the cost of getting
| switches for 110-keys vs for 48 keys, you can either
| afford nicer keys, or don't have to pay as much.
| fomine3 wrote:
| My conspiracy is that DIY keyboard builder want to solder
| less parts as possible.
| fomine3 wrote:
| Agreed. It's fair that remapping keys is great to reduce
| moving hands in some cases, but it not mean dedicated
| keys aren't needed. I prefer to have both. Remapping
| feature is confused to reducing keys.
| simonsaysso wrote:
| I would imagine you can add an F key layer pretty easily so
| this shouldn't be a big deal. I found it impossible to touch-
| type the F-row on my Advantage 2, and it's awesome to be able
| to move keys closer to your fingers.
|
| That being said, I don't see a reason to upgrade. I've ordered
| replacement key wells so I can install my own switches, and
| since the Advantage is my desk keyboard I'm not worried about
| portability.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > I would imagine you can add an F key layer pretty easily so
| this shouldn't be a big deal
|
| That may be the case, but the issue I have with this is that
| I need, often enough, to press random F keys while not
| actively using the keyboard. Like for example refresh HN
| while eating an apple (F5). It's a pain to have to press
| multiple keys.
| dr_kiszonka wrote:
| They also sell pedals, which, I guess, you could use to
| switch layers. I am thinking about using pedals to switch
| to the arrow keys layer. I wonder what other uses the
| pedals have?
| [deleted]
| foxfluff wrote:
| IME the pedal is even more clumsy than pressing two keys
| to switch layers (I've had an advantage pro for ~15 years
| and am now using a planck and also building my own split
| keyboard to replace the planck with something more
| ergonomic).
| jmarcher wrote:
| My concern with this keyboard and others without F keys would
| be how awkward some IntelliJ keyboard shortcuts would be
|
| e.g: LayerX + cmd + shift + 9 to rebuild a file. There are
| much worse offenders I am sure.
| warp wrote:
| If you're using layers already, it's a small step to just
| add dedicated keys for those things in a layer. So that
| becomes LayerX + 9, or LayerX + R (for rebuild), or
| whatever combination you want.
| avgcorrection wrote:
| But at this point you are just fixing an invented problem
| with more tasks to be done. A lot of these custom
| keyboards could just have been built with more of the
| standard keys.
| rgoulter wrote:
| Pessimistic: "without the full set of keyswitches, you
| need to use fancy tricks to make shortcuts usable".
|
| Optimistic: "with fancy tricks, you can make shortcuts
| easily accessible without the need for the full set of
| keyswitches".
|
| e.g. on my keyboard I have shortcuts for "goto desktop
| left" when I press "cv", (and "goto desktop right" when I
| press "m,"). This is more complex than a standard
| keyboard's Ctrl+Shift+Right (or whatever, as varies per
| OS), but it feels so convenient.
| avgcorrection wrote:
| Enlightened middle way: Custom software keyboard
| configuration that works with any keyboard and that
| doesn't have to solve invented problems like "No man
| there is no Home key why would you need that just use
| this QMK module bro and--"
|
| I am intrigued by your key chords though. You can't get
| key chords like that with a stock keyboard. Does it rely
| on the key-up event to distinguish between "cv" (one
| keychord" and "c" and "v" (separate)? Or does it rely on
| timeouts?
| rgoulter wrote:
| > I am intrigued by your key chords though. You can't get
| key chords like that with a stock keyboard. Does it rely
| on the key-up event to distinguish between "cv" (one
| keychord" and "c" and "v" (separate)? Or does it rely on
| timeouts?
|
| Timeouts. I believe it's similar to how some users use
| "jk" as more convenient than the escape key.
| Too wrote:
| I switch between tons of tools and computers throughout
| the day. No way I want to customize all of them.
|
| Sure, yes I do have a huge bashrc on my main workstation
| and yes I do add macros and other combos for repetitive
| tasks. But some fundamental things, like rebuild file, I
| really don't want to be the weirdo unique guy who can't
| operate someone else's keyboard and vice versa. Missing F
| keys is just not a professional programmers keyboard.
| avgcorrection wrote:
| Modifier keycombos are often harder to use than simple
| keypresses. First of all because it involves two hands (if
| touch typing) and second of all because you have to
| coordinate the hands so that you type the combo in the right
| order (e.g. control before C).
|
| "But the home row." Right. And that's sometimes a plus. But
| (1) moving your hands a bit is often not a big deal (unless
| you have to go back and forth a lot--then I think it's a
| drag), and (2) even if things like using the (F key layer)
| arrow keys might be comfortable, it might not be comfortable
| to have to use yet another modifier key in order to use
| common functions like move-by-word (e.g. Ctrl+Left) or even
| move-and-mark-by-word (Ctrl+Shift+Left).
|
| It's not an objective win either way. So you definitely
| cannot just say that it "isn't a big deal" as if having to
| use another layer has _no_ cost associated with it.
| alasdair_ wrote:
| >Sadly, no dedicated F-row. I would even settle for a subset of
| keys that aligned with the columns. I do not consider layers an
| adequate replacement.
|
| Damn, I missed that part. The original Advantage has a set of
| small rubber F keys along the top which works surprisingly well
| given the amount that I use them (i.e. rarely).
|
| Looking a bit more, I see that there are an extra set of keys
| on the "inside" of each half (to the right of G and left of H)
| - it's plausible that remapping these to key function keys
| would be enough for most use cases.
| ksml wrote:
| Agreed. I think the lack of dedicated F-row is a dealbreaker
| for me, as I use the media control keys pretty often
| thanhhaimai wrote:
| I've been using the Kinesis Advantage (modded QMK) for 6+
| years, and I was so excited to see the headline. Then I
| realized there is no Fn row. :(
|
| It seems like I should go stock some of the old version in case
| they decide to discontinue it and only offer non-Fn version
| later.
| hitchhiker-nz wrote:
| Perhaps you can check out this one with F keys and ZMK. https
| ://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/rc2pxj/t...
| dlgeek wrote:
| Under specs:
|
| > Function Keys reside in new "Fn" Layer
|
| > 10-Key resides in the traditional "Keypad" Layer
| jerlam wrote:
| I like how they added inboard macro keys. It was odd before how
| the Advantage had all this programming capability but you had to
| come up with some new keystrokes.
|
| Is it me or the price difference between the two makes the Pro
| model a no-brainer? Wireless, backlighting, better keycaps, and
| better programming model for only $40 more?
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| ianai wrote:
| Not everybody wants a wireless keyboard. The least desirable
| thing, to me, is probably the backlight. It's clearly toggle-
| able though, so should be fine.
| toyg wrote:
| And if it's like my Freestyle Edge, at some point the
| backlight will just stop working every time you reboot,
| anyway...
|
| (I love my Edge, but this particularly bug annoys me)
| FullyFunctional wrote:
| You find ABS (soft and light plastic that wears down with even
| moderate usage) to be superior to PBT which is heavier and
| _FAR_ more durable?
| jerlam wrote:
| I'll be the first to admit I know nothing about keycaps, it
| always seemed like worrying about the paint on a car and
| ignoring the engine. I'm guessing they had to use the worse
| keycaps on the "Pro" for backlighting?
| [deleted]
| FullyFunctional wrote:
| Trust me, you can immediately feel the difference and you
| can see the difference after at most a year. As someone who
| types 12+ hours every day, yeah, I care. Car paint protects
| the body, but is otherwise almost exclusively cosmetic.
| Keycaps however is what you touch. You don't touch a
| keyboard (in a meaningful way), so I think your analogy is
| flawed.
| gigatexal wrote:
| Trying to justify the price as I'm very keen to try the contoured
| keys. What's the difference between the two models?
| archarios wrote:
| you could also build your own at much lower cost but much
| higher labor: https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform
| https://www.etsy.com/market/dactyl_manuform
| bllguo wrote:
| This looks cool, I'm glad split contoured boards are becoming
| more accessible. Shame about the switch options though.
|
| Also, plug for the yet unreleased Glove80
| https://www.moergo.com/, as someone who prefers low-profile
| switches.
| hitchhiker-nz wrote:
| There is a detailed Reddit post on the improved ergonomic
| design too
| https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/rc2pxj/t...
| DerSaidin wrote:
| I'm curious to see what price that one will be.
| roldie wrote:
| Thanks for sharing, this looks like it's exactly what I've been
| looking for!
| bllguo wrote:
| absolutely! this is their first product so some caution is
| merited, and the polish most likely won't be on kinesis
| levels, but I really like what they've shown so far
| dmm wrote:
| I recently replaced the controller on my advantage2 to support
| qmk[0]. Using multiple layers lets me avoid the tiny rubber
| f-keys and move the arrow keys to hjkl along with a few other
| tweaks.
|
| I wish kinsis would make qmk support a default option. Custom
| layouts and layers are just too useful for me to give up.
|
| [0] https://github.com/kinx-project/kint
| foxfluff wrote:
| Yea, I have an advantage pro but it's been collecting dust
| since I got a qmk keyboard. I'm not paying for proprietary
| firmware anymore, and since Kinesis' poor handling of their
| sticky modifier key bug (that existed and was well known for
| what, a decade or two?) I'm not keen on paying them anything at
| all anyway.
| foxfluff wrote:
| And in case anyone's wondering what I'm talking about, back
| when I was about to buy my Kinesis, just about every user
| report I could find online mentioned that sometimes the
| modifiers get stuck. I really hoped that was just a
| coincidence, but no, my new keyboard did the same thing, and
| when I asked other users I came across along the way, they
| all said it's a regular thing with the Kinesis Advantage.
|
| Some tried to get Kinesis to repair it but response ranged
| from not acknowledging the issue at all and playing
| oblivious, or blaming the computer, sometimes offering to
| replace a circuit board in the keyboard (this does not fix
| the problem).
|
| There's also this 2016 web.archive.org snapshot where Kinesis
| is blaming the computer for missing the upstroke (what a joke
| to anyone who has the slightest clue of how USB or the input
| stack in your favorite kernel works): https://web.archive.org
| /web/20160221095425/http://www.kinesi...
|
| The reality is that it's all in their firmware and looks like
| it took them nearly two decades to fix (if not more, I'm not
| sure exactly how far back the issue goes.. I think some
| people claim it was also happening with the old PS/2 model!)
| with the release of Advantage 2.
|
| More anecdotes here, it was discussed when the Advantage 2
| released: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12237836
|
| Nice keyboard but it really left me with a "shitty company"
| taste. And yeah, shitty proprietary firmware.
| konart wrote:
| >3-Way Adjustable Tenting
|
| Looks too easy to break.
|
| Anyway - I've tried ErgoDox some years ago and realised it's two
| flaws:
|
| - too light
|
| - not enough buttons if you need to type in more than one
| language and your second language has more than 26 characters.
| stakkur wrote:
| Aaaand despite costing a small fortune and being sturdy....it has
| to have a 'Windows' key. It baffles me how that persists.
| jmiserez wrote:
| With the Advantage 2 you got 4 extra keycaps in the box: 3 Mac
| keys and an additional Alt key to replace the Windows one.
|
| For the Advantage 360 they're saying 11 additional keycaps in
| the box. I'm sure one of those is a Windows key replacement.
| stakkur wrote:
| Thanks, didn't know that. But I wish there was a better
| option for the 'default' key than the Windows logo.
| Ciantic wrote:
| I have Ergodox Ez, it looks like this one is slightly updated
| version. Pinky row is lowered (which I think is an advantage, I
| have wondered for a long time why the pinky row is too high in
| EZ.). It has Bluetooth which I would prefer.
|
| It has some ZMK firmware which I haven't studied, I have only
| used QMK, otherwise looks good.
| alpaca128 wrote:
| The pinky columns could be lowered a lot more. After a bit of
| testing I moved them a full row height down on my keyboard as
| that seems to be the sweet spot for me. It's weird for a minute
| or two but feels natural quickly.
| Ciantic wrote:
| I tried that too, but couldn't stick to it, I don't remember
| why. Maybe I should try again.
| astangl wrote:
| I checked with Kinesis sales, and they said they'll be offering
| the PBT dyesub keycaps, for those of us who'd like to buy them
| for our old Advantage2 keyboards. No word yet on when they'll be
| available though.
| blt wrote:
| Interested in this. I like my Ergodox EZ but I wish its maximum
| tenting was a little more. I also really want to try the nonflat
| key arrangement.
|
| However, labeled keys and unique key shapes seems like a weird
| combination. Especially with Enter and Space on the same side.
| tomsmeding wrote:
| Question about the EZ: I have one too, but a major problem I
| have with it is that even when not tented, it's a _significant_
| distance above my desk. The EZ wrist rests don't work for me
| (my palms move when typing, and the silicone deters palm
| movement for me), but when the keyboard is tented I have a
| larger problem: where do I rest my arm? Do I just put my elbow
| on the table? That's a very small surface area to rest my full
| arm on.
|
| How do you deal with large amounts of tenting?
|
| EDIT: my current solution is two books, one under either arm...
| donatj wrote:
| I don't mind the lack of function keys, I have a lot of 40-60%
| keyboards that lack function keys - but from the pictures, FN+6
| is F7... Yikes. Off by one.
|
| Why. Every layered keyboard is FN+1-9 = F1-9
|
| I'm sure you can reprogram it to correct this, but this is just
| silly.
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| This looks like a fun way to test ZMK. Most of the boards out
| there that support it are tiny and going or the same price, so
| why not get something bigger in a nice form factor?
| goodpoint wrote:
| All this ergonomic keyboards are incredibly expensive. Is there
| anything reasonable below 50e? Even DIY.
| qq4 wrote:
| I was getting hand fatigue from my laptop keyboard and decided to
| look into split keyboards. I tried a variety of Kinesis keyboards
| but I didn't like the build quality or inconsistency in features
| between models. I ended up settling with the Mistel MD770 which
| is a compact split keyboard in a traditional QWERTY layout. I
| found that was all that was really needed. I still use my laptop
| a ton, but I switch it up just enough with the split one to keep
| fatigue at bay. This goes the same for using a trackball with my
| left hand and a mouse with my right.
|
| At the end of the day the solution for me is to move in different
| ways and to build strength to combat fatigue. The trouble to
| adapt to Dvorak or curved, exceptionally ergonomic layouts isn't
| worth it for me, nor is the cost.
| [deleted]
| h3mb3 wrote:
| I've been quite happy with MD770 as well! I wish a similiar 75%
| split board existed with an ortholinear layout though.
| qq4 wrote:
| I do wish it was a little better in layout, but it's not too
| bad. I have been impressed with it so far for the price. My
| biggest gripe is I wish the effort for flashy RGB lights went
| into key lighting instead. I still hunt and peck sometimes at
| night.
| alostpuppy wrote:
| Does anyone know what the professional edition adds?
| ndrake wrote:
| Bluetooth, wireless linking between both halves, backlighting,
| ZMK firmware
| darzu wrote:
| bluetooth
| [deleted]
| ninkendo wrote:
| What does the keyboard layout look like? Every single picture of
| the keyboard on this site shows either a tiny section of the
| keyboard where you only see like 4 keys, or there's one picture
| that shows the whole thing, but it's super tiny and you can't
| read the keys.
|
| Does it have a decent mac layout? Is cmd+tab easy to type? Is
| copy/paste ergonomic? I have no idea because the pictures don't
| show it, and scrolling around on their site is awful (you can't
| quickly scan around because of the stupid animations taking 2
| seconds for pictures to pop in even if you're quickly scrolling
| past.)
| andrei_says_ wrote:
| I have the non-split curvy Kinesis and while it's good for
| typing, it is unusable for photoshop or illustrator work.
|
| Some shortcuts no longer work for one-handed use.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| Agreed, use my kinesis for all programming work, emails etc.
| Have a standard staggered board on my desk as well that I
| swap to for 'hotkey program work' and games (so
| CAD/3d/photshop/videoediting).
| CardenB wrote:
| I'm guessing this mimics the kinesis advantage 2, which is an
| already well known keyboard layout from the same company.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| Yes, except they have added a few keys to the new layout. A
| 'function' key in the bottom outside corners, and three keys
| on the inner edge of each hand that can be programmed to
| whatever.
|
| https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage360/#new-keys
| alasdair_ wrote:
| >Does it have a decent mac layout?
|
| So the Advantage comes with extra keycaps for mac that let you
| replace the windows keys with option keys, not sure if the 360
| will have that.
|
| On the regular Advantage, the option keys are controlled by the
| thumb. You can, of course, remap anything you want to remap.
| advrs wrote:
| Second this - it is way too hard for me to see a full FOV and
| high-res look at the actual product!
| lowmagnet wrote:
| I had an Ergo way back, and it was a decent keyboard until
| something failed on the bottom row. I've since moved on to
| building a Ergodox in 2014 that I've been daily using since.
|
| This model looks really slick, and adds a number of nice
| innovations to the form factor. I'd reconsider if my current
| keyboard wasn't so bullet-proof.
| LinearEntropy wrote:
| I must be the only person on HN that dislikes my Kinesis
| Advantage 2. I bought one in 2021 after the ZSA Moonlander didnt
| quite meet my expectations. While the keywell idea is amazing, i
| found that the two halves of the keyboard weren't angled towards
| each other enough and I still had very painful ulnar deviation.
|
| This wasn't helped by it being so far off the keyboard tray. I
| don't understand how someone can use the Advantage 2 without a
| standing desk. Even with a keyboard tray I am unable to sit my
| feet flat on the ground without my thighs and knees smashing into
| the tray the whole time.
|
| I ended up buying a custom board for it to run QMK, as well as
| replacement thumb cluster keys to try lower their height as they
| also caused pain. These both helped a bit but thanks to their
| store being closed due to Covid, I had to buy off a distributor
| in NZ that charged the equivelent of 500USD, before spending even
| more on the mods done. Unfortunately ive gone back to the
| Moonlander as I can at least angle the boards more after wasting
| around $1000 NZD.
|
| While this will solve the positioning of the keys, the height
| looks like it will still be an issue for me.
| VectorLock wrote:
| >While the keywell idea is amazing, i found that the two halves
| of the keyboard weren't angled towards each other enough and I
| still had very painful ulnar deviation.
|
| The big change with this one is it looks like tenting angle,
| cant and separation are completely configurable in this
| iteration, so if anything this one might help the issues you've
| had.
| nickm12 wrote:
| This is one of the most frustrating product pages I've ever seen.
| All I want to see is high resolution photos of the keyboard from
| the top and back. The top view image is 400x300 pixels. The
| design looks nice, but not having function keys is a major turn-
| off. This is a keyboard for professionals, it should have a full
| complement of keys.
|
| Edit: Found the large picture via url hacking! https://kinesis-
| ergo.com/wp-content/uploads/Adv360-Overhead_...
| [deleted]
| hitchhiker-nz wrote:
| They are not photos. They are just renders.
| kwertyoowiyop wrote:
| I've always pressed 'b' with my RIGHT index finger. :-(
| CarVac wrote:
| I cannot fathom why the Kinesis keyboards don't have thumb shift
| by default.
|
| At least it's customizable.
| ErikCorry wrote:
| The most puzzling default is that the 'up' key is on the left
| and 'down' is on the right. This is the opposite of vi and
| ctrl-J ctrl-K for no reason that I can imagine. I always remap
| it.
| archarios wrote:
| I think they want to keep it somewhat approachable..
| jasone wrote:
| Thumb shift keys are definitely an (incremental) improvement
| over the traditional placement, but they require a yet bigger
| commitment to retraining from the standard keyboard layout.
| I've been using Kinesis keyboards for 25 years, and finally
| this year committed to moving the shifts to the thumbs. This
| was worthwhile for me, but I hesitate to recommend the, ahem,
| shift to others.
| convolvatron wrote:
| why not both? despite having it mapped there for 20+ years I
| still don't use the thumb-shift. but for some chords its
| really a lot nicer.
| jasone wrote:
| The shift keys take up precious thumb cluster space, and
| their standard location is also useful. IMO the "best of
| both worlds" option is just worse.
| lowmagnet wrote:
| Hm, Ergodox don't either, at least in the suggested default
| layout.
| Gatsky wrote:
| A major issue I have with these ergo keyboards is the
| impossibility of trying them before buying them.
|
| Any solutions for this? I guess it is pay to play or stick with
| normal layouts.
| bxji wrote:
| Kinesis has a 60-day money back guarantee if you buy from them,
| minus the cost of shipping. These are also sold on Amazon,
| which has a really good return policy so you can return the
| item with no hassle if you don't end up liking it.
|
| Of course, this is all presuming that
|
| A. You have enough capital to buy the keyboard and are ok with
| not having $300+ for a month or two
|
| B. you can get used to the keyboard within a 30 day period and
| get a feel for how you'd like to use it full time
| LinearEntropy wrote:
| Unfortunately their store was closed thoughout most of 2021
| due to COVID. I orded a Advantage 2 from the sole NZ
| distributor who do not honour that deal. Cost 500USD only to
| discover it was very uncomfortable for an "ergonomic"
| keyboard. I dont think my shoulders are particularly far
| apart but I still had massive pain due to the ulnar deviation
| caused by the keywells not sitting at an angle that suited by
| shoulders.
|
| Another few hundred dollars in mods to get QMK and lower
| thumb keys and while some other issues were resolved, I
| cannot type on it for more than a minute without intense pain
| in my left wrist.
| Gatsky wrote:
| Yes, this is what I'm worried about (from Australia).
| tifadg1 wrote:
| So this looks like an updated kinesis advantage 2 - added
| bluetooth, more ergonomy options.
|
| Kinesis advantage 2 helped me deal with carpal tunnel syndrome
| and forced to learn 10 finger typing, among other things.
|
| As someone interacting with the pc for 8+ hours, this is easily
| the most impactful 450 Eur I've ever spent.
| alasdair_ wrote:
| Holy shit finally!
|
| I have been using the Kinesys Advantage (and the LF version with
| Cherry MX Reds instead of Browns) for many many years. I love it
| but have always wanted a split version because my shoulders are
| too wide and I have to pull my arms in to type (like every other
| non-split keyboard out there).
|
| I spent a long time looking at building a custom 3d-printed
| keyboard of my own but trying to find just the right keycaps
| (they are not all the same size) that would work with the scooped
| layout was tough.
|
| I can't find it right now but there was at least one person who
| cut their Advantage in half and wired each side together with a
| long cable. It was cool that it worked, but it looked janky as
| hell and seemed like a good way to accidentally break a $350
| keyboard.
|
| I'm so glad this is a thing!
| DerSaidin wrote:
| https://twitter.com/kinesisergo/status/1471885389329666048
|
| > How many: 360
|
| Good luck getting one in this first drop.
| mulholio wrote:
| Damn, this looks great. I'm very happy with my ErgoDoxes but the
| domed keys on this would make me seriously consider it if I were
| buying today. IMO, the split keyboard is super important for not
| messing up your shoulders with hunched over typing.
| huang47 wrote:
| love the split design but the new challenge will be where I can
| mount the magic trackpad LOL
| bayofpigs wrote:
| Been using the Advantage for decades. Splitting the two sides is
| a terrific idea. Always wanted to mount a split keyboard to the
| sides of a zero-gravity chair so will try it out with this.
|
| Two features I wished they would offer: 1. A nub-mouse like the
| Thinkpad 2. A touchpad in the center of the keyboard (not needed
| for the split)
| ianai wrote:
| Yes, I've even given them feedback asking for a nib or
| something somewhere. I used velcro to attach a trackpad to the
| middle of one of my Advantage2 keyboards and it helps. (If I
| had my personal choice, it'd probably be a trackball instead of
| a nib.)
|
| Their keyboards are absolutely fantastic!
| dotancohen wrote:
| No function keys! Why?
|
| This keyboard is obviously marketed at people who spend
| considerable time typing. When I'm in VIM I never use the
| Function keys, but every other serious productivity app - from
| Jetbrains IDEs to Microsoft Excel to Photoshop makes heavy use of
| them, often with modifiers. All of these cases now become triple-
| or quadruple- buckies on keyboards that require holding a layer
| key to access the Function keys.
| miguelmurca wrote:
| > Use stronger thumbs rather than weaker pinkies to access
|
| For some reason that sentence is extremely funny to me
| cmauniada wrote:
| No function keys is a huge deal breaker for me, I don't have any
| problem sticking to my advantage2.
| archarios wrote:
| looks like there is a function layer. Layers are nice because
| they make it so you don't have to move your hands far from home
| row.
| cmauniada wrote:
| I've had such a bad experience with the macbook layering
| (touchbar too), I feel like it might be more hassle having to
| turn the layer on and then press the key.
|
| Whereas with a dedicated fn row, it would be a lot easier.
| I'm quite happy with my adv2, but I can't wait for the
| reviews.
| archarios wrote:
| if the layer button is easily accessible, it isn't so bad
| imo. I have a function layer available just by moving my
| thumbs one button "inward" from resting position and I love
| it. It seems I like layers more than a lot of people though
| so *shrug.
| ioman wrote:
| I have been waiting for this keyboard for 20 years
| toastal wrote:
| Man, I wish they had differenter keyswitch options. I've used a
| bunch of Cherry MX styles in the past, but after switching to
| electrocapacitve Topre-clones, I don't want to go back.
| lgleason wrote:
| I have been a Kinesis user for 8 years, starting with an
| Advantage USB, added a classic PS2(with a usb adapter) as a
| backup and then was a tester for the Advantage 2 which I ended up
| buying. A company I worked for gave me a choice for keyboards
| when I joined so I tried a Ergodox EZ with the RGB backlighting.
|
| General observations:
|
| 1. Overall I prefer the Advantage over the Ergodox. The big
| reason is the contoured design and the fact that the Ergodox
| tends to walk around unless you have a solid desk pad underneath
| it. Also, the Ergodox never felt as comfortable as the Advantage.
| Yes the Advantage is not as easy to travel with but still.... 2.
| I like the new design, but there are a few things that would have
| made the pro perfect. PBT backlit keycaps like they offer on the
| Ergodox-EZ and RGB backlighting...and maybe a set of f-keys (on
| the fence with the last one).
|
| One other thing... A mix of o-rings and QMX clips made a huge
| difference with the feel of the keyboard for me. I have been a
| cherry brown user from the beginning though and different people
| have different preferences with that.
|
| Kinesis is also really good about providing parts and service.
| I've had them send me replacement switches and have seen them
| offer up in-expensive replacement boards to repair and keep older
| models going.
|
| I'm going to buy one of these, but given that I already have 4
| high quality mechanical keyboards and I have yet to have one die
| I am starting to feel guilty having all of these laying around.
| That said there is a side of me that is curious about the
| Keyboard.io :)
| throw455654 wrote:
| I must have gotten a lemon because I got phantom key presses
| after a few months.
|
| I really want to try it again, but nervous if I'll be unlucky
| with the same issues.
| dogma1138 wrote:
| I would like to see them partner with Logitech and integrate
| Logitech's wireless tech into this and get rid of the cables all
| together and have a much lower latency interface than BT.
| greenimpala wrote:
| oh wow.. had my advantage for 8 years and would never look back!
| arvinsim wrote:
| It's sad that ergonomic keyboards are relatively expensive
| compared to even other expensive mechanical keyboards.
| candyman wrote:
| I was having some serious wrist and shoulder pain. Turns out it
| was related to my mouse which I kept to the right side of my
| keyboard. I moved it directly in front of the keyboard so it's in
| the middle and my pains disappeared. I may still take a look at
| this keyboard because the older you get the more you need. I've
| now been at the keyboard since 1979 and that's some wear and
| tear.
| danr4 wrote:
| Try a trackball mouse. I sport a Logitech Ergo MX with a 30deg
| tilt. Similar to you it's in front of the keyboard. The fact
| you don't need the mouse to move at all is amazing.
| itsjango wrote:
| I used the same with a freestyle 2 and a Logitech on left
| when right gets tired. How do you position it in front of the
| keyboard? Seems weird
| doitLP wrote:
| Maybe this was asked elsewhere but can anyone comment on what
| it's like switching back and forth between keyboard layouts when
| you don't have your Kinesis? Eg on phone or using someone else's
| computer in a pinch.
| Zezima wrote:
| Effortless.
|
| Muscle memory is a wonderful thing. You don't struggle to wear
| two different pairs of shoes or ride two bikes.
|
| With enough practice (three months for me) I can type easily on
| phone keyboards, kinesis/moonlander, and qwerty laptop
| keyboards.
|
| Do yourself a favor and take care of your hands. Split,
| ergonomic, welled, and ortholinear keyboards make a noticeable
| difference for finger fatigue, RSI, etc. my wrist tenderness is
| gone after using my kinesis for 3 years and has not returned
| after using the ZSA moonlander for 3 months.
| mohaine wrote:
| Agreed. After awhile you will always switch modes instantly
| as long as the keyboard is a different shape.
|
| Kinesis to std, no problem, don't even think about it.
| Kinesis to Model 1 not so much.
| pen2l wrote:
| Oh, finally a big keyboard manufacturer has the cojones to move
| Capslock away from prime keyboard space.
|
| I have Advantage keyboard and usually wrote off physically
| separated keyboards, but thinking more about it now, I do wish my
| Advantage's two splits were angled a liiiittle more. So, I'll
| probably get this 360.
|
| I do hope however that us_intl layout becomes more widespread and
| the AltGr modifier key is universally present in US keyboards
| without having to set it up.
| stavros wrote:
| > cajones
|
| I don't think a lack of drawers was the problem!
| jbellis wrote:
| I've wanted a bluetooth Advantage for years, but going from the
| vestigal F keys to none at all is making this a tough decision.
| meremortals wrote:
| Currently use the split Kinesis Freestyle2. On macOS, Karabiner's
| "Mouse Keys" mod allows me to control the cursor by holding the d
| key and using hjkl for left down up right
|
| It's relieved much of my wrist pain, and I always flirt with the
| idea of trying a full on Advantage
| dave_sid wrote:
| Kinesis Advantage keyboards saved my career. I had bad carpal
| tunnel syndrome. I tried evening out there. This is the only
| thing that remotely worked.
| timbert wrote:
| I'll second that. I've owned two of these keyboards (one for
| work, one for home) for 16 years and they are still going
| strong. Nothing else really worked for me. They've taken me
| through 3 employers now.
|
| It does take some getting used to, but once you've made the
| transition, you won't want to go back. You'll type faster, with
| almost no strain, and more accurately.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| I have four of them because I keep buying secondhand boards
| from people who can't adjust to them for cheap... I paid full
| price for my first but the other three all came in between
| $50-150. Though after I replace their controllers they cost a
| bit more :)
| dwringer wrote:
| I didn't suffer from carpal tunnel but I'd get a lot of tension
| in my back and shoulders leading to sharp pains and deep aches
| that would last for days. Started using an Advantage2 and
| trackball in my non-dominant hand at work and within a week the
| symptoms were gone (and have stayed gone for a few years). I
| still use a normal keyboard and mouse in my dominant hand at
| home but the time spent that way is much less.
| jtth wrote:
| Same. I would not be able to do the last 8 years of my life if
| it weren't for these keyboards.
| endisneigh wrote:
| If you're seriously thinking about buying this go try the other
| Kinesis keyboards first. After you get in the ergonomic territory
| I find the comfort increases to be very marginal.
|
| IMHO assuming you have no ergonomic setup at all you're better
| off buying a Kinesis Freestyle, a used Steelcase/Herman Miller
| chair, and a VESA mount for your monitor/laptop to make it eye
| level - all of which can be had for the cost of the Pro version.
|
| That being said this looks like a very nice purchase for those
| who have the money to micro optimize.
| topher200 wrote:
| I agree with this take. I've used a Freestyle 2 for years and
| _loved_ it. I tried the Advantage 2 and it gave me headaches --
| I couldn't deal with the keys being in different spots.
|
| Switched back to Freestyle 2 and I couldn't be happier.
| linsomniac wrote:
| FWIW: We had ergonomics consultants in 3-4 years ago and they
| recommended displays be lower because having them higher makes
| your eyes open wider and dry out more. If you have problems
| with dry eyes, maybe try lowering your display?
| thebean11 wrote:
| That's super interesting I have never heard or thought of
| that. I wonder how that compares to tilting your head back
| slightly to get the same eye:monitor angle?
| FullyFunctional wrote:
| This is all getting into personal preference, but AFAIK,
| ergonomic standards do not exactly recommend eye level,
| they recommend that looking in a straight line you should
| see over top of edge of the monitor. There's definitely
| some tradeoffs to be had as having the monitor too low can
| put stress on your neck (which translates to neck pain
| after a while).
| linsomniac wrote:
| That's gonna really depend on the monitor, of course. My
| 46" 4K, that'd be on the floor. :-) But, I've had pretty
| good luck with keeping my monitors lower, and I tend to
| have issues with dry eyes.
| tehnub wrote:
| That sounds reasonable. What I've seen from various
| websites, and enjoy from personal experience, is having
| the top of the monitor at, or slightly above, eye level.
| Ninjinka wrote:
| I picked up a Kinesis Advantage on Craigslist for $100 a year ago
| and that's easily been the best $100 I've spent. I've found
| myself wishing I could travel with it, but it's so huge that's
| really not feasible. This new design makes that look more
| possible, and the bluetooth option is a huge plus. So I'll
| definitely be purchasing.
| ropeladder wrote:
| I've started having problems with trigger finger (can't bend
| fingers in to make a fist) in both my right and left hands. Has
| anyone fixed this sort of problem with a new keyboard/mouse? I
| always hear about ergonomics in relation to carpal tunnel and
| wrist issues, but there is very little info (evidence or even
| advertising claims) about finger health.
| bauta-steen wrote:
| I've had trigger finger in my pinkies for maybe 10 years now.
|
| To my knowledge nothing except for maybe surgery will cure it.
| Excessive typing will unsurprisingly exacerbate it. I manage by
| remapping keys from the pinkies (emacs + ahk + Japanese
| keyboard with thumb keys), and using a keyboard with ultra
| light switches (Fujitsu libertouch with light membranes, plus
| cut slits in them to make them even lighter).
| iLemming wrote:
| Obligatory link:
|
| Gallery of split keyboards
|
| https://t.co/3hrNmk2PMX https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-
| keyboards/?s=09
| hitchhiker-nz wrote:
| Has anyone actually seen a photo of Advantage360 or did Kinesis
| just launched a preorder just with renders?
| waynesonfire wrote:
| if you're still young, learn dvorak as soon as possible and when
| you're wise, you won't be crippled like these folks praising this
| keyboard.
| grumpyprole wrote:
| I don't think there is universal agreement for Dvorak being
| more _ergonomic_ than Qwerty. Qwerty was designed to make key
| presses with alternative hands statistically likely (to benefit
| mechanical type writers). But this is also a good ergonomic
| property. For example, common English works like "the" can be
| typed with one hand with Dvorak, but this is not necessarily
| ergonomic. It causes one to contort the hand more than if "the"
| is typed with alternative hands.
| Symbiote wrote:
| This is completely wrong; I think you must be thinking of
| something other than Dvorak.
|
| "The" requires both hands on Dvorak, and "th" is the easiest
| right-hand finger-roll1, equivalent to "kj" on Qwerty. E is
| one of the strongest keys on the left hand.
|
| On Qwerty, this extremely common English word requires moving
| the fingers away from the home position, and the T (second
| most frequent English letter) is one of the longer stretches.
|
| Taking your most recent longer comment (Category Theory),
| typed on Qwerty there are 354 alternate-hand transitions. On
| Dvorak, there are 451.
|
| With the simplest fragment, "there are even books about it",
| and the left hand shown in capital letters:
| Qwerty: ThERE ARE EVEn BookS ABouT It. Dvorak: thErE
| ArE EvEn bOOKs AbOUt It.
|
| If you touch-type Qwerty, try typing "Kjdod aod d.dl nssv;
| ansfk gke".
|
| 1 Like when drumming your fingers on the table.
| grumpyprole wrote:
| > This is completely wrong; I think you must be thinking of
| something other than Dvorak.
|
| Yes, apologies, my example was wrong and I was probably
| confusing Dvorak with another layout. I would like to see
| some better statistics on hand alternation though, because
| qwerty is quite good at this (as Wikipedia states) and it
| would be interesting to see where it actually sits relative
| to the other layouts.
| waynesonfire wrote:
| it's not just left vs right hand. i don't mind using both
| hands. there are positions on the keyboard that are easier
| to access than others. for example, home row keys are the
| easiest to press while keys near the edges of the keyboard
| above and below the pinky are more difficult. as a dvorak
| typist for 20 years, it seems to me that dvorak maps
| frequently pressed keys and combinations of keys in zones
| that are easier to access compared to qwerty. over my
| lifetime, i'm certain this has paid dividends.
|
| dvorak was optimized for comfort while qwerty was optimized
| for a mechanical device. dvorak is like shitting on a bidet
| and to me it's very strange that folks prefer to smear poop
| on themselves with paper.
| grumpyprole wrote:
| This is where the Kinesis contoured wells help. For
| example, typing T with qwerty on a Kinesis is no longer a
| "stretch".
| [deleted]
| new_realist wrote:
| There's a renaissance in hobbyist ergo keyboards happening right
| now, and this is the best Kinesis could do?
| zeeb wrote:
| Very similar vibes to the dactyl, if you're feeling handy and
| interested in a little DIY...
|
| https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard
| jagger27 wrote:
| The Dactyl gives Kinesis vibes, you mean! :^)
|
| Kinesis has been around since the early 90s making keyboards
| like this.
| new_realist wrote:
| And barely innovating.
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| Dactyl is quite a high bar for "a little DIY" ;)
| tehnub wrote:
| There are a good number of people who sell pre-builts for
| reasonable prices (e.g. https://bastardkb.com/), but these
| are often one-person endeavors, and with part shortages,
| they've been out of stock a lot recently.
| rangersanger wrote:
| I picked up a Kinesis a few month ago and it's been a life
| changer. I've struggled with shoulder pain since as far back as I
| can remember. I'd done PT, dry needling, massage, etc etc. I'd
| even sprung for a personal ergonomic assessment. I'm a cyclist
| and and keyboard jockey, so most of my waking life is spent in
| positions that seemed to make it worse. At times it prevented me
| from sleeping, doing things I enjoyed, etc. I wear a 42 jacket,
| so I'm not crazy wide or anything.
|
| I'd never seen anything that suggested that split keyboards were
| a good solve for the shoulder pain but I'd reached that point of
| just throwing shit at a wall because it was that, or find a new
| career and hobbies. Moving my keyboard so my forearms can sit
| slightly wider than perpendicular to my chest has almost
| completely resolved the shoulder pain and the impact was almost
| immediate.
| deagle50 wrote:
| I've had shoulder pain for a couple of years now and I'm
| reading this right after I bought an old 500 on eBay for $100
| two hours ago. I love my Niz topre clone but I need a healthier
| layout, and now I'm pretty stoked.
| hellol-amda wrote:
| I can attest to that. I tried microsoft ergonomic keyboards,
| logitech keboards but they didn't help then i found kinesis
| freestyle split keyboard and since then almost all the issues
| are gone. prior to switching to kinesis, i also switched from
| kwerty to dvorak, It helped but not that much. I used to have
| issues with my right hand due mouse usage, so i switched from
| right to left hand because i am right handed and unconsciously
| i was using it way more then my left. you do need to complement
| the change with upperbody stretching.
| johnthedebs wrote:
| Out of curiosity: where/what type of shoulder pain did you
| have, and what movements triggered it?
| cma wrote:
| Where are you positioning your mouse, even farther out, or in-
| between the split?
| archarios wrote:
| I put mine further out
| jamie_ca wrote:
| I've been using a Freestyle 2 for a year+ now, 10" split,
| mouse sits in the middle.
|
| While typing it keeps my arms on the chair's armrests with my
| hands just extending forward, and the current armrest height
| keeps my wrists an inch or so above the desk so I don't need
| to worry about tracking down wrist pads or such.
| hitchhiker-nz wrote:
| Split keyboard is good for shoulder pain for a number of
| reasons.
|
| For a start, it stops the need for hunching shoulders as the
| halves can be placed to fit shoulder width.
|
| This is for another split contoured keyboard, but it would help
| explain
| https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/rc2pxj/t...
| dwringer wrote:
| This was exactly my experience as well.
| akudha wrote:
| All of this sounds great, but it is nearly 450 bucks!!! I'd
| like to get one, the only turnoff is the price
| yabatopia wrote:
| Did your doctors or therapists consider Thoracic Outlet
| Syndrome? I've struggled with severe pain in shoulders, arms,
| hands and fingers for several years. It was sort of discovered
| by accident. They removed both of my first ribs (rib resection)
| and in combination with a Kinesis keyboard and a Wacom pen and
| tablet as a mouse replacement it's much better now.
|
| Unfortunately, the solution came a bit late. The strain on my
| nerves and blood vessels caused by the thoracic outlet syndrome
| has damaged my arm nerves. And after the second rib resection,
| the one on the left side, my plexus brachialis got severely
| damaged. It took nearly 2 years to partially recover. My left
| arm gets tired very fast in certain positions, my left thumb is
| partially numb and sleeping on my left shoulder can be painful.
|
| I can't image how much worse it would be without my Kinesis
| Advantage keyboard and my Wacom Bamboo tablet. Using another
| computer or laptop with an normal keyboard, touchpad or mouse,
| is hell. An iPad Pro with a pencil (and a tablet stand to hold
| the tablet) is much better.
| xr82 wrote:
| Wow! Another TOS survivor. Despite all the RSI talk in the
| programming community, I still find it very rare that someone
| is actually diagnosed, let alone, goes through TOS. However,
| I do suspect that its prevalence is higher than estimated in
| this target community.
|
| TOS killed my programming career. It ruined my life and
| brought me untold mental and physical pain. At one point I
| couldn't use my arms for more than thirty minutes a day. Even
| taking a shower was exhausting. I underwent two surgeries,
| one two remove the ribs and muscles entrapping my nerves.
| After the first surgery things were good for awhile, my hands
| were no longer purple (due compression on the vein/artery)
| and I could actually use a keyboard again. Unfortunately scar
| tissue grew over my nerves and entrapped them again. At this
| point I required a second surgery to remove the tissue, which
| worked quite well and enabled my to use my arms again.
| Unfortunately, nothing is perfect in life and I still have
| some tissue that is interfering with my neck and causing
| chronic pain for which I take a variety of medications for. I
| currently work a low end job in health care because I can't
| sit at a desk for 8 hours a day without substantial pain
| (trust me I've tried everything, at this point I could open
| an ergonomic store).
|
| I just want to give a shout out to a fellow TOS victim,
| especially one in the tech world. It's a very rare condition
| and it's very damaging (imaging not being able to touch your
| phone without pain) and I wish there was more awareness.
| swampthing wrote:
| Wow, I don't feel quite so alone anymore. I went through
| something similar, although I didn't have it as bad as you.
| I couldn't shake hands, lift a grocery bag, or drive for
| quite some time. The doctors I saw were stumped, and I got
| the sense that no one wanted to deal with it. I went to a
| PT, who guessed the problem incorrectly (in hindsight), but
| whose recommended exercises fortuitously happened to also
| help with TOS. It wasn't until many years later that a
| sports medicine doctor mentioned TOS as a possibility and
| everything clicked.
|
| Can I ask how you were able to determine there was scar
| tissue? Was it just someone feeling it out or did you get
| an MRI?
| foofoobar wrote:
| After years of pain, I was also diagnosed with TOS. I will
| not go for surgery however, as this can make things more
| complicated. A split keyboard (I got the moonlander some
| months ago) did have a _little_ effect for me, however not a
| huge one I was hoping for. I 'm trying/doing a lot of posture
| related exercises. Some days its better, some days its hard
| to get through the work day. Would appreciate any hints which
| made things better for others with TOS and a desk job. It's a
| constant trial & error with ups and downs here.
| swampthing wrote:
| Pretty sure I have TOS too -- it's how I came to discover
| Kinesis keyboards. It's manageable for me now, but I would be
| curious to find out if there was nerve damage so that I know
| how further I can improve and what's futile. Can I ask how
| the doctors determined that there was damage to your arm
| nerves? E.g. what sort of imaging / tests do they do?
| servytor wrote:
| What. You complained about back pain and your doctors ended
| up removing your first ribs?
| srcreigh wrote:
| For my issues, the fix was
|
| 1) Stretching my fingers. Yup. You gotta stretch a) curl motion
| of each finger, across the top of your hand, b) uncurling
| motion of each finger, through your palm, c) uncurling the
| thumb-pinky (touch your pinky to your thumb.. that's what you
| do when you hold the mouse... do the opposite as a stretch)
|
| 2) A good PT who can actually debug my body. I tried 5+
| massage/osteo/PT professionals before finding her based on
| recommendation. Most were completely bad. One was decent but
| didn't fix the whole problem. Finally I found someone who could
| fix the problems.
|
| I also got a Kinesis Advantage 2, but honestly with the 2 above
| tips I'm not sure you need it.
| throu2o34234 wrote:
| pity it doesn't have a trackball.
| gbrown_ wrote:
| It's a shame they couldn't get hot-swapable switches to work [1].
| I have an ErgoDox with MX Browns which hasn't seen the light of
| day for a while. If I were to make a large outlay again on a
| keyboard I'd want to buy with the switches I now know I want or
| no switches and fit them myself. TBH I could take a soldering
| iron to my ErgoDox I just haven't had the motivation.
|
| As an aside I've always wondered why the Katana60 [2] didn't have
| much interest as it seemed like a reasonable regular to full ergo
| in-between and IMHO more comfortable than something like a
| Planck. Though whilst I have tried the Plank I've not actually
| tried the Katana60 IRL. Looking forward to keyboard meetups again
| the post COVID future.
|
| [1] https://twitter.com/kinesisergo/status/1470446358372896772
|
| [2] http://xahlee.info/kbd/katana60_keyboard.html
| simonsaysso wrote:
| If you're looking for something small but more ergonomic than a
| Plank, take a look at the Atreus (either as a DIY or in a kit
| from Keyboario[1]). I also had issues with the Plank but the
| slight angle of the keys on the Atreus has been extremely
| comfortable for me.
|
| [1] https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus
| gbrown_ wrote:
| Yeah I'm pretty familiar with most keyboard offerings. I'm
| just not keen on the Atreus' lack of a surrounding case/the
| key caps themselves being the edge. I know it's only an
| atheistic quibble but I guess I'm fussy like that.
| thebean11 wrote:
| Love the small size, but the layout is too different from a
| "regular" keyboard for me to consider it; the switching costs
| between it and my laptop would be too high. Placement of
| shift, super (I use caps lock as super), and tab being the
| biggest issues.
| alostpuppy wrote:
| I just bought two and use one on top of my laptop. Or
| perfect but it works out alright.
| fulafel wrote:
| Hot swap switches would be a killer RAS feature for a KB. Throw
| in redundant power and multipath USB with chipkill ECC in the
| MCU and it can be the longest uptime device in your data
| center...
| pault wrote:
| Hot swappable switches is a common (premium) feature in the
| mech keyboard world. There are many examples, but the ergodox
| EZ is one that is very similar to TFA, but without the
| contours.
| chrsig wrote:
| I've been using a kenesis advantage for the last several years,
| and absolutely love it.
|
| And I'm incredibly excited about this, mostly
|
| Hits: - Split design - multiple bluetooth pairings/wireless
| connection
|
| Misses: - No function keys?
| archarios wrote:
| There's a function layer. So you can still hit the function
| keys, just have to hit another button first.
| muditmudit wrote:
| Is it just me, or does it look like another ergodox clone/fork? I
| mean, I'm happy. I hope this would make the split layout even
| more common place.
| jerlam wrote:
| The Kinesis "contoured" design with thumb clusters is almost 30
| years old, and itself was a clone of the Maltron design - so I
| think it's accurate to describe the Ergodox as a clone of the
| Kinesis.
| muditmudit wrote:
| Ha, I didn't know that. Thanks. Learned something new today.
| spiderice wrote:
| > so I think it's accurate to describe the Ergodox as a clone
| of the Kinesis.
|
| Seems to me like the Ergo almost exactly cloned the thumb
| cluster, and the Kinesis 360 almost exactly cloned the Ergo
| split design. They are clearly both drawing inspiration from
| each other, and there isn't one "clone"
| FullyFunctional wrote:
| Making a split version is kind of an obvious option and
| Ergodox was _far_ from the first fully split keyboard. Two
| people can both have the same idea (which is why patents
| are patently unfair).
| abecedarius wrote:
| > Weight: 3.2 pounds
|
| That seems like a lot. Any keyboard experts feel like explaining
| why a good keyboard is heavier than a laptop?
| fomine3 wrote:
| Stability.
| dbenamy wrote:
| Hah, https://dbenamy.blogspot.com/2010/01/most-expensive-
| keyboard...
|
| +1 on them being an awesome company!
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