[HN Gopher] Satellite detects large mass of water in Mars canyon
___________________________________________________________________
Satellite detects large mass of water in Mars canyon
Author : ChuckMcM
Score : 174 points
Date : 2021-12-17 19:45 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.cnn.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.cnn.com)
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| The paper is here:
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001910352...
| but it is pay walled.
|
| One of the more interesting challenges in creating self
| sustaining colonies on other planets is the availability of
| water. And this is another example of how Mars might provide
| water in a very accessible way (40% by volume is a lot of water
| :-))
|
| NASA has already pretty much convinced itself that plants could
| grow in suitably amended martian soil[1][2]. I haven't seen a
| paper yet on whether or not there is enough solar irradiation for
| robust photo synthesis (needed for the production of plant
| sugars) but one could always add grow lights powered by one of
| the small nuclear power sources[3].
|
| [1] https://www.nasa.gov/feature/can-plants-grow-with-mars-soil
|
| [2]
| https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....
|
| [3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2021/12/06/nasa-
| is-l....
| account-5 wrote:
| The link you provided for the paper wasn't paywalled for me, no
| idea why.
| dougmccune wrote:
| It's not paywalled. OP probably saw the name Elsevier and
| assumed it was paywalled, but it's open access and licensed
| CC BY.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| Exactly this.
| hinkley wrote:
| Heliostats could work too but might be a challenge with the
| dust storms. At least at first.
|
| What's the current wisdom on bioremediation of perchlorates?
| That seems to be the sticking point.
|
| We know on earth that tidal zones have been a hotbed of
| evolution. I have this notion in my head of creating
| terraforming equipment (specifically atmosphere and water) that
| buffers its output and releases it in pulses though a
| transitional zone. Like a marine fish tank. Say at the bottom
| of a canyon or partially enclosed space.
|
| This alternating availability of resources should select for
| more resilient lines.
| snarf21 wrote:
| The thing I don't understand is why aren't we building
| something here on Earth that is underground designed to be a
| self-sustaining system. It seems like if we can't figure out
| how to do it here, we have no chance to do it on the Moon or
| Mars. Mars is cool as a story but we don't have our sh!t
| together enough to really try.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| It's a good question, the whole "Biosphere" project which you
| can go visit in Arizona which sought to do something like
| this. It isn't underground, there really isn't much
| advantage, and there is a whole lot of expense, in building
| under ground.
|
| So the partial answer is that people are doing this research.
| Complex interactive systems like this however are _very_ hard
| to design all at once. One strategy might be to solve
| individual problems like having a habitat that provides all
| of its own oxygen and CO2 processing. Then once that is
| understood have one that can recycle 100% of bio-waste. Then
| add a long term power supply, then figure out how to make
| that supply a renewable one. It is a very complex process and
| each step will reveal new interconnections that need to be
| dealt with.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| If the Biosphere project taught us anything it's there is a
| huge amount of problems that wouldn't transfer into other
| environments, and those other environments will also create
| tons of different nontransferable problems.
| dahfizz wrote:
| Because that's boring. Once Mars colonies become a real
| possibility, obviously the missions will be tested on earth
| before we yeet billions of dollars to another planet and hope
| it all works. But going through all that work and money
| solely for the purpose of an Earth bound terrarium is boring.
| Who would want to pay for that?
| walleeee wrote:
| Not only is it a profound and fundamental capability if we
| intend to live off-planet, it's basically the _only_
| relevant capacity, conceived broadly (how to manufacture
| the means for indefinite survival given supplies of matter
| and energy). It 's the universal constructor problem and
| our present solutions are fragile and primitive. There is
| virtually infinite room for improvement. How is that
| boring?
| visarga wrote:
| could be useful in case of disasters, if we ever have to
| bunker up for a long time
| rrix2 wrote:
| i think youre putting the cart before the horse here. there
| is no possibility of a Mars colony without this work
| happening on earth.
| killjoywashere wrote:
| See the CHAPEA and HERA campaigns
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| It's another planet, you could suddenly create your own
| country. It's a billionaire's dream.
| Cilvic wrote:
| I like the idea, are there any benefits from starting under
| ground or could we just do it even cheaper on the surface?
| mod wrote:
| I think some benefits are difficulty (we want to stress
| test), similarity (we probably build underground on Mars),
| and a whole lot fewer outside influences (a lot fewer
| organisms underground).
| sdfgsdf wrote:
| I swear in my life time we've discovered water in Mars about 8
| times now.
| pvarangot wrote:
| That's because (newsflash) there's water on Mars!
|
| Question is when will someone invest in a mission for something
| that actually does something with it that is not measuring its
| existence with remote sensors.
| slingnow wrote:
| There's water here on Earth, too. But we don't keep
| "discovering" it.
| bamboozled wrote:
| I think the parent is commenting on the fact that it keeps
| being presented to us as news.
| [deleted]
| downWidOutaFite wrote:
| Is this canyon anywhere near our rovers?
|
| EDIT: looked it up, they're basically on the opposite sides of
| the planet
|
| Water:
| https://geohack.toolforge.org/geohack.php?pagename=Water&par...
|
| Perseverance rover:
| https://geohack.toolforge.org/geohack.php?pagename=Persevera...
| ryanmercer wrote:
| No, and Valles Marineris is about 7km deep in places vs the
| Grand Canyon's 1.8km max depth, not something a rover could go
| check out.
|
| Robert Zubrin actually uses Valles Marineris as part of the
| plot in his work of fiction First Landing that lays out how a
| manned mission to Mars might go.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| But a helicopter could. :-)
| jvanderbot wrote:
| exactly, and in the newfound current era of pinpoint orbit-
| to-surface landings you might just send a rover too.
| duxup wrote:
| I'm imagining a future where space colonization is just
| robots fighting it out / eachother.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| You would love to read the Corporation Wars trilogy
| https://www.amazon.com/Corporation-Wars-Trilogy-Ken-
| MacLeod-...
| [deleted]
| jq-r wrote:
| Also mentioned in the Expanse book series as region which was
| colonized by Texans (IIRC) so they have that nice accent.
| charlieflowers wrote:
| So, we ship our carbon to Mars, which warms it up while solving
| our climate problem. Once it's warm enough, that water can exist
| on the surface, setting it up for terraforming.
|
| Now that I've solved all that, I think I'll knock off early for
| the weekend.
| [deleted]
| sharken wrote:
| Not even qualified to solve this, but there are several ways to
| capture carbon:
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_capture_and_storage
| dogma1138 wrote:
| Not enough carbon, that said somehow siphoning CO2 from Venus
| turning it into dry ice and using a mass driver to shoot it
| at mars whilst completely nuts and well beyond our
| technological reach might actually work.
|
| It would also be a 2 for 1 terraforming effort. Then the only
| thing you need to do is figure out how to spin Venus to break
| the tidal lock. And if you set up your mass drivers correctly
| you should be able to give it some additional spin at least.
| droobles wrote:
| Great job, thank you for your contribution to mankind! :)
| nathancahill wrote:
| I'm an idea man. I link up with implementers, and then we
| share the money.
| rkagerer wrote:
| _The FREND instrument searches for neutrons to map hydrogen
| content in the Martian soil._
|
| _FREND revealed an area with an unusually large amount of
| hydrogen in the colossal Valles Marineris canyon system: assuming
| the hydrogen we see is bound into water molecules, as much as 40%
| of the near-surface material in this region appears to be water._
|
| How confident are we that hydrogen detected really is water?
| [deleted]
| colechristensen wrote:
| There just aren't alternatives to what it could be.
|
| Hydrogen just doesn't get bound up into minerals (unless
| essentially as water) and not at any great density, and there
| isn't another plausible substance that would be hanging out in
| a canyon on mars.
| hyperpallium2 wrote:
| Ammonia, NH_3?
| labster wrote:
| It could be hydrocarbons. We just found oil on on Mars! Black
| gold, Tharsis tea! Now if only we had an atmosphere to burn
| it in.
| [deleted]
| varjag wrote:
| Why stop there. It could be an ancient Martian landfill
| where plastics failed to degrade.
| fartcannon wrote:
| Isn't that actually one of the terraforming methods
| proposed?
| malwarebytess wrote:
| If there was ever life on Mars at scale it wouldn't be
| impossible or unusual to find oil and coal, would it? Or
| does it degrade on the timescales that would be required
| for this to be possible?
|
| tbc I don't believe there's oil on mars nor do I think it
| is remotely likely.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| Hydrocarbons are quite common on planets without life.
| It's the oxygen in our atmosphere that makes them rare.
| akiselev wrote:
| Evidence points to tectonic activity and liquid water on
| Mars at one point in its history so theoretically, yes.
| The geological processes that can move fossils deep
| enough to become fossil fuels could have been present
| along with the mud slides and sediment that are most
| favorable for preserving animal remains.
| Sharlin wrote:
| I don't think there are many plausible alternatives, really.
| BrazzVuvuzela wrote:
| Is water on Mars even exciting? We're already quite certain
| there is a ton of water on Mars... in the form of ice. The
| exciting discoveries are evidence of _liquid_ water.
|
| > The bulk of the northern ice cap consists of water ice; it
| also has a thin seasonal veneer of dry ice, solid carbon
| dioxide. Each winter the ice cap grows by adding 1.5 to 2 m of
| dry ice.
|
| > The part of the cap that survives the summer is called the
| north residual cap and is made of water ice. This water ice is
| believed to be as much as _three kilometers thick._
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_polar_ice_caps
|
| That's a lot of water!
| basementcat wrote:
| One of the interesting consequences of water on Mars is the
| fact that it can be used to make methane and oxygen (used by
| both SpaceX's Raptor and Blue Origin's BE-4 engines). This
| potentially increases the amount of cargo one can carry from
| Earth to Mars as one no longer needs to bring hydrogen (for
| the Sabatier process for making methane) from Earth for the
| return trip back to Earth
| withinboredom wrote:
| That sounds like a ridiculous waste of such a scarce
| resource.
| vermilingua wrote:
| Why? This is one of the only economic advantages for
| settling mars; serving as a lower-g refueling station.
| eunoia wrote:
| Refueling for what? The realities of orbital dynamics
| mean that Mars isn't a convenient stopping place on the
| way to say, the outer solar system. I don't have the
| numbers in my head but the delta-v requirements to
| intercept, match velocity and land negate any potential
| refueling benefit in my understanding. (Not to mention
| the added complexity vs a straight shot, this is a lot to
| pull off even in a sim like KSP)
|
| You might be able to make an argument for refueling bases
| on Mar's tiny moons with their negligible gravity wells
| for Martian missions themselves but that's about all I
| can see.
|
| What am I missing?
| R0b0t1 wrote:
| You're not missing much, but orbital transfer hooks from
| Mar's moons work out.
| withinboredom wrote:
| Unless the water is replenished somehow, sending it all
| off-planet would mean no one could settle Mars.
| perl4ever wrote:
| How much water do you think is on Mars?
| gunfighthacksaw wrote:
| For anyone born in the 20th century I'd think so.
|
| If you'd have said there was water on mars in 1970 you'd have
| been met with disbelief. 1980? 1990? Later?
| cmehdy wrote:
| Astronomy Picture of the Day on April 1st 2005: NASA finds
| water on mars[0].
|
| [0] https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap050401.html
| BrazzVuvuzela wrote:
| I think this is a failure of science education more than
| anything else. The polar ice caps of Mars were first
| observed in the 17th century.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Mars_observation#E
| a...
| varjag wrote:
| It was observed simultaneously as canals and vegetation
| were "observed", and roundly discarded by 1970s. Water on
| Mars remained unconfirmed until this century.
| interroboink wrote:
| Though I distinctly remember reading in an encyclopedia
| from the '70s that certain large dark regions on the
| Martian surface were believed to be thick vegetation (: I'm
| not kidding!
|
| From [1]: "As recently as the early 1960s, it still seemed
| possible to a few astronomers that the dark regions had
| some kind of plant life because they seemed to darken each
| summer as if plants were growing in response to sunlight."
|
| [1] https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/pia02362-the-dark-
| surfaces-o...
| Veen wrote:
| Yes, I remember reading books from the 60s my grandmother
| got from a charity shop. They had wonderful illustrations
| of Mars with vegetation and where the canyons discussed
| in the article were canals full of water. It's easy to
| forget just how much we've discovered about the other
| planets in the solar system in the last 50 years.
| paxys wrote:
| There is so much science fiction writing from the golden
| age and beyond, up to the 60s and 70s, which prominently
| features Martians and Martian cities. Mars having alien
| life was a massive source of speculation among the public
| at that time. While the stories are still great, reading
| them today I can't help but go "nah we've been to Mars,
| there's nothing there".
|
| Makes me think about how soon sci-fi written today will
| get similarly outdated.
| coenhyde wrote:
| It is very exciting in the equatorial regions as it was
| typically assumed that because of the high summer
| temperatures (~70degF), any ice would melt and the water
| would evaporate. Valles Marineris would be an excellent
| location for a human settlement because of these warmer
| temperatures and the higher atmospheric pressure in the
| canyon. If there is water there as well then it ticks all the
| boxes.
| londons_explore wrote:
| > higher atmospheric pressure
|
| But the pressure is still effectively nil. It's far below
| what would be needed for humans to venture outdoors, and
| makes a negligible difference to the strength required for
| pressurised buildings.
| BrazzVuvuzela wrote:
| I believe it would make it easier to land supplies there
| though, since there is more atmosphere to aerobrake with.
| coenhyde wrote:
| Absolutely but every little bit helps. A thicker
| atmosphere also means less radiation, thus less radiation
| shielding required. I don't have numbers on hand but from
| what recall it is a significant enough of a difference to
| worthy consideration.
| withinboredom wrote:
| I am sure someone will eventually come up with the crazy
| idea to seal the canyon and pressurize it.
| astrange wrote:
| The Martian soil is still unsuitable for humans since
| it's full of toxins.
|
| https://www.space.com/21554-mars-toxic-perchlorate-
| chemicals...
| ceejayoz wrote:
| The same article makes it sound pretty manageable.
| Showers for the spacesuits, microbes that eat it, and
| useful properties.
| beamatronic wrote:
| Could human settlers on Mars adapt to progressively lower
| pressure levels over time (generations)?
| _Microft wrote:
| Yes and no. Yes because there are people on Earth adapted
| to living at great heights (the Andes or Himalaya) and no
| because the pressure on Mars is _far_ too low. At Mars '
| pressure, the boiling point of water is so low that our
| body temperature is too high and makes the blood boil.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armstrong_limit
| [deleted]
| echelon wrote:
| Every deposit of water, even as ice, opens a new series of
| inquiry. Suddenly you have new regions, geographies,
| biogeochemical hypotheses, and potential support for life.
| More history, more to explore.
|
| New sites give us more to consider for future missions and
| broaden the set of experiments we want to conduct.
|
| I'd much rather keep finding water, even as ice, then have
| the planet run dry. It only increases the odds.
| java-man wrote:
| Direct link to paper:
|
| [0]
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001910352...
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-12-17 23:00 UTC)