[HN Gopher] A Civil War cartoonist created the modern image of S...
___________________________________________________________________
A Civil War cartoonist created the modern image of Santa Claus
(2018)
Author : homarp
Score : 93 points
Date : 2021-12-12 09:11 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.smithsonianmag.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.smithsonianmag.com)
| ramphastidae wrote:
| Portrait of Saint Nicholas with a long grey beard and red and
| white robes:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas#/media/File%3...
| amelius wrote:
| How did he pick the name "Santa Claus"? Was Claus a common name
| in that period? And why did he use "Santa" instead of "Saint"?
| brink wrote:
| "Saint" in a handful of European languages is Santa. Not sure
| if that's why though.
| teruakohatu wrote:
| It was an evolution, the myth and the sleigh was already there,
| the beard goes back hundreds of years. This page has a good
| overview of the image of Santa over the centuries:
|
| https://publicdomainreview.org/collection/a-pictorial-histor...
| lanevorockz wrote:
| Absolutely, I find this claim of "created santa" is so silly
| that it sounds like revisionist history. Kazakhstan, Lithuania
| and other regions have "Santa" traditions that go back over a
| hundred years and it is mostly indistinguishable than the
| "propaganda" version.
| MomoXenosaga wrote:
| The Netherlands has something called "Sinterklaas". But I
| think celebrating children and giving presents to them is
| something that goes back to the very origin of mankind and
| can be found all over the world.
| genewitch wrote:
| Sinterklass is just how the Dutch pronounce Saint Nicolas.
|
| Americans bastardized it to Santa Claus. As we do.
| treeman79 wrote:
| Let's not forget the fine German tradition of the Christmas
| pickle.
|
| That no one in Germany knows about...
| https://youtu.be/Sb0qu_RjQ6I
| vmception wrote:
| There are some people that are susceptible to the idea of new
| information being more canonical than the prior information
| they were initially exposed to, as opposed to merely an
| alternate amongst many alternates.
| kgran wrote:
| Almost all Kazakhs are Sunni Muslims. If you've meant
| Christian populations like Russians, then I would be
| interested to see what's special about Russian Kazakhstani's
| Santa traditions.
|
| I'd also like to see a hundred or more years old Lithuanian
| Santa version similar to the Unionist one.
|
| This is not to dismiss your claim that this might be
| revisionist (I'm not sure), but your examples on Kazakhstan
| and Lithuania lack evidence.
| mpol wrote:
| Not an answer, mostly a hint :) But could it be that the
| folklore of Odin / Wodan came there through the Vikings?
| The Dutch Sinterklaas is partly based on the Wild Hunt of
| Odin. Odin might have inspired more civilisations with the
| same concept.
| snemvalts wrote:
| Didn't you know? All culture of the world revolves around the
| US /s
| ksherlock wrote:
| They seem to agree with the premise (``[Nast] created the
| modern image of Santa Claus''):
|
| ``The cartoonist Thomas Nast established the bounds for Santa
| Claus' current look with an initial illustration in an 1863
| issue of Harper's Weekly, as part of a large illustration
| titled "A Christmas Furlough".''
| max002 wrote:
| Before him there was "grandfather freeze" in Russia, in Poland
| st. Claus from bishop. How he looks? My nephew and niece really
| dont care :D as long as he brings presents :))))))
| lttlrck wrote:
| It seems he's been around for a very long time...
|
| https://beautifulrus.com/ded-moroz-vs-santa-claus/
|
| myths spread far and wide. Father Frost is a tradition in
| Mongolia.
| oceanghost wrote:
| So there's some thought that the Santa Claus myth is highly
| involved with the mushroom Amanita Muscaria.
|
| https://www.npr.org/2010/12/24/132260025/did-shrooms-send-sa...
| PostThisTooFast wrote:
| Rudolph was created as a Christmas mascot for Montgomery Ward
| (Chicago) department stores:
| https://www.npr.org/2015/12/25/461005670/the-history-of-rudo...
| nashashmi wrote:
| The author writes articles on obscure facts in history but I also
| a strange insertion of opinions bordering on journalistic heresy.
|
| Take this article with a big grain of salt. The cartoonist didn't
| create a modern image of Santa but swung Santa imagery only in
| the US.
| notahacker wrote:
| And even in American culture, there's a certain famous poem
| from a few decades before the Civil War involving a jolly white
| bearded St Nicholas with a sack of presents on his back and a
| sleigh with reindeer, ironically acknowledged by the article
| itself.
| DFHippie wrote:
| I think this and many other comments on this article are taking
| the article the wrong way. The article isn't asserting that
| Nast created the image of Santa Claus for everyone on Earth but
| only in the US. This might be wrong as well -- Nast perhaps
| took an image, or elements of various images, that were present
| in many locations in the US and popularized them -- but people
| are presenting evidence of the depiction of Santa Claus/Father
| Christmas/Saint Nick/Sion Corn/Sinterclas/etc. in other
| countries as contradicting the thesis of the article. It is an
| article in an American magazine for an American audience and it
| discusses the depiction of this entity in the US before and
| after Nast's influence. Evidently the author should have been
| more explicit on this point, but I expect she didn't think
| people would take it as they have. The "we" should refers to
| her assumed audience, is other people in the US, the sort of
| people who subscribe to Smithsonian. When she says the "the
| image we have today" she doesn't mean any disrespect to other
| cultures; she is just assuming her audience is Americans, that
| they will know she has this assumption, and that therefore she
| is talking about American culture, not global culture.
| WoahNoun wrote:
| The article even explicitly says "modern image" in the title.
| Those paintings posted below are certainly not the "modern
| image" of Santa in the US.
| anshumankmr wrote:
| Fascinating, as I always thought it was based on a person called
| St Nicholas(and it sort of is) but never really knew it's roots
| in modern times.
|
| Here is an album made by the same artist on Santa Claus.
|
| https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Santa_Claus_by_T...
| flohofwoe wrote:
| He is, and St. Nicholas was already shown with a red (bishop's)
| robe and white beard hundreds of years ago:
|
| https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaus_von_Myra#/media/Datei...
|
| https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaus_von_Myra#/media/Datei...
|
| https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaus_von_Myra#/media/Datei...
|
| (which doesn't mean that the Christians 'invented' Santa Claus
| of course, since the early European missionaries often
| 'adopted' earlier pagan traditions)
| trasz wrote:
| "St Nicholas" is just a Catholic fairy tale; an attempt to
| fabricate history to connect Santa Claus to religion.
| kzrdude wrote:
| What's been very successful through history has been that new
| religions adapt, displace and take over old traditions.
| Midwinter celebrations to Christmas and so on, or why not
| jewish holidays given a new story in christianity while
| continuing to be celebrated at the same time of year or maybe
| even with the same food (originally).
|
| If one is optimistic, this "depth" of traditions surrounding
| christmas or maybe other holidays give them a bigger meaning,
| it can encompass all the different traditions at once.
| shakna wrote:
| Sinterklaas actually has a lot of pre-Christian aspects (such
| as Zwarte Piet's bag). The mythic figure of St. Nicholas
| probably predates the arrival of Catholicism in the
| Netherlands.
|
| (The non-mythic figure of St. Nicholas was also an actual
| person and not just a fairy tale, as is common with this kind
| of mythology.)
| DonHopkins wrote:
| Ironically Sinterklass and his cringe-worthy blackfaced
| Zwarte Piet servants would have sided with the racist pro-
| slavery Confederacy, not the Union.
|
| The racist pro-Piet hooligans in the Netherlands who still
| support Zwarte Piet like to celebrate the birth and
| teachings of Our Lord Jesus H Christ The Savior by
| gathering in crowds, hurling eggs, shouting racist insults,
| smashing windows, vandalizing cars, and shooting off
| fireworks against anti-racist protestors, who find Zwarte
| Piet's blackface and oversized red lips and black afro wigs
| and demeaningly stereotypical childish behavior a racist
| and offensive remnant of the Netherland's colonial past.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#Notable_events_du
| r...
|
| >During intocht celebrations throughout November 2018,
| violent incidents took place in the cities and towns of
| Nijmegen, The Hague, Leeuwarden, Den Helder, Rotterdam, and
| elsewhere. In Eindhoven, anti-Piet demonstrators were
| surrounded by an estimated group of 250 people described as
| "football hooligans" who attacked them with eggs and
| shouted racist insults. A similar protest in Tilburg led to
| the arrest of 44 pro-Piet demonstrators.[41]
|
| [41] https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/11/amnesty-
| international-...
|
| >In 2019, it was decided that the nationally-televised
| arrival of Sinterklaas hosted by Apeldoorn would feature
| only sooty versions.[42] That November, a group called Kick
| Out Zwarte Piet were attacked during a meeting. Windows
| were smashed, nearby vehicles were vandalized, and
| fireworks were shot into the building where the group was
| planning protests in 12 communities that still feature
| traditional versions of the character.[43] In June 2020,
| American broadcaster NBC and Netflix opted to remove
| footage of a character dressed as Zwarte Piet from an
| episode of The Office. Series creator Greg Daniels released
| a statement saying that "blackface is unacceptable and
| making the point so graphically is hurtful and wrong. I am
| sorry for the pain that caused."[44]
|
| [42]
| https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/netherlands-
| chr...
|
| [Kick Out Zwarte Piet]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kick_Out_Zwarte_Piet
|
| [43] https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/11/zwarte-piet-
| protest-gr...
|
| [44] https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/the-office-blackface-
| dwight-chr...
|
| >Prime Minister Mark Rutte stated in a parliamentary debate
| on 5 June 2020 that he had changed his opinion on the issue
| and now better understands why many people consider the
| character's appearance to be racist.[45] In August 2020,
| Facebook updated its policies to ban depictions of
| blackface on its Facebook and Instagram platforms,
| including traditional blackface depictions of Zwarte
| Piet.[46] In October 2020, Google banned advertising
| featuring Zwarte Piet, including soot versions without
| blackface.[47] Additional companies followed suit, among
| them Bol, Amazon, and Coolblue, who each decided to remove
| traditional Zwarte Piet products and promotions from their
| services.[48][49] In November 2020, Vereniging van Openbare
| Bibliotheken, a national association of public libraries,
| also announced that they were in the process of removing
| books featuring Zwarte Piet from library shelves.[50]
|
| [45] https://nos.nl/artikel/2336254-rutte-ik-ben-anders-
| gaan-denk...
|
| [46] https://thenextweb.com/facebook/2020/08/11/facebook-
| is-banni...
|
| [47] https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/10/google-to-ban-
| zwarte-p...
|
| [48] https://www.welingelichtekringen.nl/samenleving/203614
| 6/bol-...
|
| [49] https://nltimes.nl/2020/08/26/amazon-also-bans-
| blackface-zwa...
|
| [50] https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/bibliotheken-verwijderen-
| boeken...
| bsanr2 wrote:
| I like to think that the classiest revenge is just
| supporting Black Santa Claus.
|
| https://youtu.be/OY4Yod55B_c
|
| https://youtu.be/Lijydf9hGxs
| DonHopkins wrote:
| Black Santa Claus is so much more kind and forgiving than
| Robot Santa Claus!
|
| https://futurama.fandom.com/wiki/Robot_Santa_Claus
|
| >"You DARE bribe Santa?! I'm gonna shove coal so far up
| your stocking, you'll be coughing up diamonds!" --Robot
| Santa Claus
|
| >"I know he is, but I have no choice. I'm already running
| late, and if I don't complete my BRUTAL rampage, well, it
| just wouldn't be Xmas." --Robot Santa Claus
|
| >"Nice try! But my head was built with paradox absorbing
| crumple zones." --Robot Santa Claus
|
| >"Your mistletoe is no match for my TOW missile!" --Robot
| Santa Claus
|
| >"Time to get jolly on your naughty asses!" --Robot Santa
| Claus
|
| >It is unknown how Robot Santa enacts surveillance upon
| the entire population of Earth but it is probable that he
| uses "Mom's Old Fashioned Surveillance Unit".
|
| >Robot Santa was scammed out of his "Naughtiness List" in
| "Bender's Big Score" and this made him quite upset
| because he wanted to cause discontent with the
| information on the List.
|
| >Robot Santa Claus has a bunch of Native Neptunians
| working in his workshop on Neptune but the Neptunians can
| be confused with Elves because they're underfed due to
| not turning a profit because Santa doesn't give them a
| paycheck.
|
| >He may have been inspired by the robot Santa seen in the
| Simpsons episode "Homer's Phobia"
|
| >If you think about it, maybe the Robot Santa Claus is
| right to consider all the inhabitants of the earth as bad
| and not a programming error, since throughout the series
| you can see how in reality all the characters are selfish
| and bad. (This was worded terribly!)
|
| >Due to him, Xmas has become warped from its original
| holiday meaning.
| mpol wrote:
| "Ironically Sinterklass and his cringe-worthy blackfaced
| Zwarte Piet servants would have sided with the racist
| pro-slavery Confederacy, not the Union."
|
| No, just no. They are freed slaves, freed by St. Nicolas.
|
| The discussion in the Netherlands is just something from
| the last 10 years. Many people have a very moderate
| opinion about it, but on both sides there are extremists,
| which is what the media focuses on.
| mpol wrote:
| In both extremist sides there are people calling for
| violence. That way they disturb normal conversation. Even
| the Dutch NCTV, the government anti-terrorism
| organisation, labeled them as extremists, with the
| mention that they had not used violence up to now.
|
| One of the proponents of Kick Out Zwarte Piet, Akwasi,
| called out on stage for kicking Zwarte Piet in the face.
| Many people who are part of the childrens party felt
| threathened. He was found guilty, but because he said "I
| was misunderstood" they let it go. This kind of
| aggressive extremist action actually is counter
| productive in the racism debate as it is completely
| unreasonable. It is very common to hear being said that
| the anti-racism card has been pushed too hard and the
| lobby is losing its support.
|
| Personally I don't have any issue with changing the look
| of Zwarte Piet into roetveeg-Piet, which has mostly
| happened here. Just the conversation is highly
| aggressive. As an anecdote, when a colored person dresses
| as Zwarte Piet, he often gets called out for being racist
| :) All because it has never been a healthy discussion.
|
| "And what's wrong with being extremely anti-racist [...]
| ?" What is wrong is that extremism can go too far :)
| DonHopkins wrote:
| By any measure, the pro-Zwarte Piet protesters are much
| more violent much more often than the anti-racist
| protestors who they're regularly attacking. And the pro-
| Zwarte Piet hooligans are the ones attacking the police
| defending the anti-racist protestors, not the other way
| around.
|
| Zwarte Piet protest group accuses police of failing to
| protect safety:
|
| https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/11/zwarte-piet-
| protest-gr...
|
| >[...] The group has also filed a police complaint
| against The Hague businessman John van Zweden, who posted
| tweets on Friday afternoon calling on people to turn up
| to the protest 'with tar, feathers and other shit to
| drive them out of the city.' [...]
|
| And there are not two sides to the argument about racism.
| The pro-racist side is wrong, and has a long sordid
| history of enforcing their racism with violence, and the
| anti-racist side is correct, and on the right side of
| history.
|
| >It is very common to hear being said that the anti-
| racism card has been pushed too hard and the lobby is
| losing its support.
|
| So you're rationalizing that if only the mean anti-
| racists weren't so extreme and didn't protest against
| racism and always play that darned anti-racism card,
| they'd be able to change the nice pro-racist's minds,
| huh? I highly doubt it, or that the pro-Zwarte Piet
| hooligans are only racist and violent because somebody
| "pushed too hard" on "the anti-racism card" as you
| absurdly claim. Their furious butt-hurt from the anti-
| racist Zwarte Piet protestors spoiling their fading
| memories of religious childhood fairy tales doesn't
| justify their continuing violence and racism in the name
| of Jesus.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing
|
| >Tone policing (also tone trolling, tone argument, and
| tone fallacy) is an ad hominem (personal attack) and
| anti-debate tactic based on criticizing a person for
| expressing emotion. Tone policing detracts from the truth
| or falsity of a statement by attacking the tone in which
| it was presented rather than the message itself.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#Concern_trol
| l
|
| >A concern troll is a false-flag pseudonym created by a
| user whose actual point of view is opposed to the one
| that the troll claims to hold. The concern troll posts in
| web forums devoted to its declared point of view and
| attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while
| claiming to share their goals, but with professed
| "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty, and
| doubt within the group often by appealing to outrage
| culture. This is a particular case of sockpuppeting and
| safe-baiting.
| mpol wrote:
| "[...] are much more violent [...]"
|
| You want to argue that one extremist group is less or
| more violent than the other? Well, you just made my point
| :) Both extremist groups are scum. In the Netherlands we
| don't solve things with violence but with conversation.
| And yes, people do listen. Please do not think we are
| like the US, we do have healthy conversations and a
| government that does listen (sometimes :) ). Calling for
| violence from a public stage, urging people towards
| violent behaviour has nothing to do with tone policing,
| it is simply forbidden by law and people will stop
| listening to you. You might want to read up on the
| "Poldermodel", which is very much part of Dutch politics
| and society.
|
| Please do not mix up the US culture and history with that
| of the Dutch. In the US, colored people who have been for
| generations in the US get discriminated on skin color. I
| would argue that discrimination on skin color in the
| Netherlands does exist, and yes, the change of Zwarte
| Piet is slowly being done. But discrimination is much
| more happening on a cultural level, which is even harder
| to deal with. People with a Moroccon, Turkish or Hindu
| background don't always find their place easily. And no,
| by saying that I don't mean that discrimination on skin
| color is any good.
| DonHopkins wrote:
| The story about freeing slaves is just a revisionist
| rationalization, just like the more recent revisionist
| rationalization that they're not really black skinned
| Moores, but just white people covered in soot. They were
| originally enslaved demons forced to assist their captor.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#Origins
|
| >The Saint Nicholas tradition contains a number of
| elements that are not ecclesiastical in origin.[16][17]
| In medieval iconography, Saint Nicholas is sometimes
| presented as taming a chained demon, who may or may not
| be black. However, no hint of a companion, demon,
| servant, or any other human or human-like fixed companion
| to the Saint is found in visual and textual sources from
| the Netherlands from the 16th until the 19th century.[18]
| According to a long-standing theory first proposed by
| Karl Meisen,[19] Zwarte Piet and his equivalents in
| Germanic Europe were originally presented as one or more
| enslaved demons forced to assist their captor. These
| chained and fire-scorched demons may have been
| redeveloped as black-skinned humans during the early
| 19th-century in the Netherlands in the likeness of Moors
| who work as servants for Saint Nicholas.[20] Others
| believe Zwarte Piet to be a continuation of a custom in
| which people with blackface appeared in winter solstice
| rituals.[21]
|
| Since we can all agree Zwarte Piet is actually all just
| fiction, and that it was ok to change the story numerous
| times as society evolved to be less religiously fanatic
| and racist, then why are so-called "moderate" people
| you're defending still clinging to the racist iconography
| of blackface and big painted red lips and black afros?
|
| If they can change the story from Zwarte Piets being
| chained and fire-scorched enslaved demons forced to
| assist their captor, to merely black-skinned freed human
| slaves, then from that to soot-stained Caucasians, then
| why are so-called "moderate" people so upset about
| changing "tradition" yet again?
|
| So what's wrong with being extremely anti-racist and
| protesting peacefully, instead of only "moderately"
| against racism, while racists are still violently rioting
| in the streets of the Netherlands and attacking both
| police and peaceful protestors?
|
| And why after 10 years of open public discussion are
| hooligans still shouting racist insults, throwing eggs,
| pelting police with fireworks, and rioting in the streets
| in support of Zwarte Piet?
|
| NOVEMBER 16, 2020: Riot police deployed in Zwarte Piet
| demonstration in Maastricht:
|
| https://dutchreview.com/news/riot-police-deployed-in-
| kozp-de...
|
| >On Saturday afternoon, a planned demonstration against
| Zwarte Piet in Maastricht was disrupted by counter-
| protesters. Tensions at the scene escalated, leading to
| violence and police intervention.
|
| >The action group Kick Out Zwarte (KOZP) had a permit
| from the municipality to demonstrate against the
| blackface character on the Vrijthof (a central square).
| But when counter-protesters gathered and the atmosphere
| became threatening, the police mobile unit had to
| intervene.
|
| >They used horses and dogs to keep the counter-protesters
| at a distance. The police were pelted with fireworks.
|
| >KOZP spokesperson tells NU that demonstrating at the
| second scene was impossible. "That place was almost next
| to the Vrijthof. There were a lot of threats and a lot of
| violence. People threw things and there was shouting. We,
| therefore, stopped our action prematurely."
|
| DECEMBER 4, 2021: Kick Out Zwarte Piet protesters pelted
| with eggs, oliebollen and firecrackers in Volendam:
|
| https://nltimes.nl/2021/12/04/kick-zwarte-piet-
| protesters-pe...
|
| >A group of people in Volendam attacked Kick Out Zwarte
| Piet (KOZP) protesters with, among other objects, eggs,
| oliebollen and firecrackers. KOZP was protesting against
| "structural racism" in the village.
|
| >Police escorted several dozen demonstrators back to
| their buses. The protesters left the village around 1
| p.m. under police escort.
|
| >According to KOZP spokesman Jerry Afriyie, they were
| pelted with "anything and everything," including fruit
| and oliebollen from the nearby market. Police did not
| confirm the number of people who attacked the protestors
| in Volendam.
|
| >While officers kept the groups apart, they were also
| pelted with eggs and oliebollen. According to Afriyie,
| some of the windows of the bus were damaged. Some of the
| people attacking the protestors also threw firecrackers.
|
| And please give me a break with your false equivalence
| "both sides" white-washing rationalization of blackface
| and violent racist behavior: The behavior of the pro-
| Zwarte Piet hooligans you're defending with your false
| equivalence is FAR WORSE than the anti-racist protestors
| and police in riot gear who they're violently attacking,
| which is ironic because Zwarte Piet is supposed to punish
| people for bad behavior.
|
| So why are they violently fighting against anti-racist
| protestors and riot control police for something they
| don't even believe in, if it's not actually just about
| racism?
|
| If the mythology of Zwarte Piet was supposed to teach
| children to behave well and treat each other with respect
| in celebration of Jesus Christ's birthday, then it has
| failed miserably and become a shibboleth and symbol of
| racism, so it should be disposed of in the dustbin of
| history.
| LocalH wrote:
| >then why are so-called "moderate" people so upset about
| changing "tradition" yet again?
|
| I feel like when people argue about keeping "tradition"
| it's really more about the short term past, the
| "traditions" they've seen their whole lives (and thus
| perceive as "how the world has always been").
| jessaustin wrote:
| Traditionalism is inherently paradoxical. Traditionalists
| yearn for a remote home or past that lacked the problems
| they perceive in their own place and time. Yet, the
| people in that other place and time were probably just
| living the best way they could figure out to live, and
| would gladly have accepted many aspects of modern life
| for just a bit more comfort, health, or safety.
| DonHopkins wrote:
| The anti-gay "moderates" love to make the argument that
| same sex marriage goes against "tradition", when the
| actual tradition of marriage is that women are considered
| property, and traditionally not allowed to vote or own
| land or asked to consent to sex, just like slaves.
| iso1631 wrote:
| I'm not sure how you could be a moderate if you were
| anti-gay, but the types of people who I think about when
| I think "anti-gay" probably would be quite happy to own
| slaves
| mpol wrote:
| "[...]The behavior of the pro-Zwarte Piet hooligans
| you're defending [...]"
|
| How am I defending them? I am calling them out as scum.
| These are the same people turning violent on the police
| in Rotterdam a month ago because football was not allowed
| to have public in the stadiums. They are out for the
| kicks and are looking to amuse themselves in this way.
|
| If you have a good solution for dealing with scum, please
| share.
| [deleted]
| schleck8 wrote:
| You are wrong
|
| > The Dutch are credited with transporting the legend of St.
| Nicholas (Sinterklaas) to New Amsterdam (now New York City),
| along with the custom of giving gifts and sweets to children
| on his feast day, December 6.
|
| https://www.britannica.com/topic/Santa-Claus
|
| It's a fact that St. Nicholas existed, and that he was
| portrait with a white beard and red clothing a millenia ago.
|
| https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nikola_from_1294.j.
| ..
|
| Maybe have some more respect for other peoples' culture,
| especially when linked to spirituality.
| adrian_b wrote:
| Also in the Orthodox countries from Eastern Europe, the
| custom of St. Nicholas giving gifts to the good children
| and punishing the bad children, on December 6, was
| certainly existing in the middle of the 19th century (when
| December 6 was not on the same day as in the Western
| countries with Gregorian calendar), because it was
| mentioned in some books dating from that time, but probably
| the custom existed much earlier. In any case, the custom
| was not Catholic or Protestant but it existed all over
| Europe.
|
| However I have no idea about how he was depicted at that
| time and the custom was strictly about December 6, not the
| Christmas, and the gifts or punishments were also only for
| the children, not for adults.
| galgalesh wrote:
| As someone from the Flemish (dutch-speaking) part of
| Belgium, I can honestly say that is a very US-centric view
| you have.
|
| In the Netherlands, the custom of "Sinterklaas", which was
| brought to the US and became Santa Klaus, predates
| Christianity coming to the Netherlands and Saint Nicholas
| was indeed created in order to be able to continue this
| "heathen" feast.
|
| It's origins are in the Celtic/Germanic midwinter fest of
| "Yule". During this fest, the god Wodan, rode on a horse,
| carried a staff, brought gifts to nice children and had
| devilish helpers who kidnapped the naughty children. This
| tradition is still strong in northern Europe, which was
| much less influenced by Christianity.
|
| Santa Klaus lore still has a lot of hints to the pagan
| origins. For example, the reindeer which pull Santa's
| sleigh are called Donner and Blitzen-'thunder and
| lightning' from the Old Dutch 'Dunder and Blixem'. (Wodan
| is the Germanic/celtic version of Odin.)
| 123pie123 wrote:
| in the UK, I would say (based on my limited view point)
| that most people call him Father Christmas , but Santa
| Clause is sometimes used interchangeably
| secondcoming wrote:
| I'm not sure I'd agree at all with this.
| Maursault wrote:
| > (Wodan is the Germanic/celtic version of Odin.)
|
| [Wikipedia:] The Old Norse theonym Odinn (runic uthin on
| the Ribe skull fragment) and its various Germanic
| cognates - including Old English Woden, Old Saxon Wodan,
| Old Dutch Wuodan, and Old High German Wuotan (Old
| Bavarian Wutan), - all derive from the reconstructed
| Proto-Germanic masculine theonym _Wodanaz (or_ Wodunaz).
|
| My personal favorites, missing from this list, along with
| improbable etymology, are Wudan, Wudang, Wutan and
| Wutang.
| christkv wrote:
| You've got to watch https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1401143/
| for a laugh.
| user3939382 wrote:
| Rather than saying "it's origins are x" which reads as if
| it's either wholly or primarily based on x, I would say
| "it's origins include" or something to that effect. To
| say "it's origins are" doesn't acknowledge the weight of
| Christian influence on the current tradition, as if it
| was perpetuated without being majorly changed.
|
| As Christianity spread, holidays and traditions from many
| parts of the world were subsumed by it. The history of
| the Church showed that it's easier to change people's
| religious beliefs than some of their cultural traditions.
| If theologically insignificant elements of a pre-existing
| pagan tradition got rolled into a Christian holiday that
| doesn't mean the holiday is "actually pagan" or observers
| are giving some deference to a pagan god.
|
| That may not have been your message, but I wanted to
| point it out because I hear that very often by those who
| apparently have some axe to grind with the Church and
| come off as if the history of some Christian holidays is
| a big secret they uncovered.
| genewitch wrote:
| Saint Nicolas is sinterklass and sinterklass is Santa
| Claus it's a language and culture issue.
| jaclaz wrote:
| Coincidentally, also on HN currently:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528179
|
| https://france-amerique.com/en/the-invention-of-santa-claus-...
| bbarnett wrote:
| And, to add to this, he wears red, because Coca-Cola co-opted him
| for advertising purposes.
| basisword wrote:
| This isn't true. Coca cola makes heavy use of him because he
| coincidentally wore red.
| [deleted]
| Findecanor wrote:
| I'd say that the red and white colours scheme is much older
| than Coca Cola. The American Santa Claus is believed to be
| mostly based on the Dutch "Sinterklaas" (Saint Nicholas)
| tradition, in which he is depicted as wearing a red cape and
| bishop's mitre over a white robe.
| _-david-_ wrote:
| He was depicted in red prior to the creation of Coca-Cola.
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