[HN Gopher] Amazon Facility Hit by Tornado
___________________________________________________________________
Amazon Facility Hit by Tornado
Author : kordlessagain
Score : 115 points
Date : 2021-12-11 14:24 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.youtube.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.youtube.com)
| mschuster91 wrote:
| Dumb question, but is it even feasible to build such a building
| in a "tornado-proof" way? From how the damage looks, that
| warehouse must have only been metal walls and roofing instead of
| solid concrete or bricks...
| lettergram wrote:
| I've been in several buildings designed to withstand tornados.
| Anything above around typically is only designed to survive and
| F3 or F4. The ones I've seen have a strong outer shell of steel
| and concrete with some angles to help deflect wind. There's
| then an inner shell of steel designed to keep what ever is
| inside safe. The outer shell will let some debris through but
| it won't penetrate the inner concrete and steel shell.
|
| To put it in perspective an F5 (strongest tornado) will leave
| just dirt behind and all structures, vegetation, and soil will
| be gone.
|
| Here's an example of an F5 aftermath in Illinois in the 90s
|
| https://www.weather.gov/images/lot/pastevents/1990/Aug28/pla...
| amznbad wrote:
| Tornado proof? No. But you can build shelters (eg underground)
| to provide safety when the building overhead is destroyed.
| almost_usual wrote:
| The only thing withstanding an F5 with the debris it carries is
| a bomb shelter.
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| You don't want a concrete or brick home in an area with any
| seismic activity though. There's really no perfect shelter for
| all potential disasters.
| colechristensen wrote:
| In America the tornado areas and the earthquake areas don't
| really overlap much at all.
| fennecfoxen wrote:
| That depends on how quiet the New Madrid fault really is.
| mantaraygun wrote:
| Both at once would be quite a shitshow. Soil liquefaction
| floats your tornado shelter right out of the ground, then
| the tornado smashes it. I can't imagine what it would
| take to survive both at once. Thankfully both at once
| would be extremely unlikely.
| [deleted]
| samhain wrote:
| Some types of tornado proof homes are not the big square
| concrete type, like shown in the sibling comment article, but
| dome homes made out of concrete. The obvious issues are that
| most furniture doesn't fit well, wall hangings don't work
| correctly, and putting in interior walls is wasteful, while
| modifying anything for electric or water is quite difficult
| without careful planning.
| kevan wrote:
| I'd guess those exterior walls are 6-12" thick poured concrete,
| similar to this[1]. You can see in the 6th picture almost all
| of the missing wall is still there and intact, it's just lying
| flat on the ground. In the 12th picture you can see how thick
| they are compared to car wheels nearby.
|
| [1] https://www.mppengineers.com/index_files/Page369.htm
| Merad wrote:
| It's definitely feasible, you basically just end up with
| something very similar to a military bunker. The structure ends
| up being mostly underground and the entrance or above ground
| areas are mostly made of reinforced concrete with heavy steel
| doors, no windows, etc.
|
| It's also possible to make tornado proof residential homes, but
| they're expensive and not very appealing:
| https://www.huffpost.com/entry/tornado-proof-homes-oklahoma_...
| tpmx wrote:
| Spent five minutes googling (so now I'm an expert! /s). So
| much spam on this topic. The most reasonable answer I found
| so far kindof matches up with your answer:
|
| https://www.quora.com/How-hard-would-it-be-to-build-
| tornado-...
|
| _So first off, to survive the wind speeds of an F-5 tornado
| wouldn't be hard to build. This issue is more about price
| than difficulty. Add extra fasteners, sturdier materials,
| etc. Once you get the foundation properly anchored and the
| frame reinforced, the rest is very simple._
|
| _The real issue is with the debris. Imagine a tree being
| tossed into the house. Even IF you built the walls to
| withstand it, which would be insane in a residential
| structure, you still have doors, windows, etc. Unless you
| build underground, or spent 5x more for a tiny house, it
| would be near impossible._
|
| _Your best bet is to not build in the middle of a tornado-
| prone area._
| rufus_foreman wrote:
| Financially, no it is not feasible. In the parts of the US
| where tornadoes are common, any particular spot is hit by a
| tornado on average once every 2,500 years. Of those tornadoes,
| 80% of them will be EF0 or EF1 intensity. An EF1 tornado will
| cause some roof damage and break windows but it won't tear the
| roof completely off or collapse walls.
|
| So it doesn't really make sense to spend money for something
| that happens once every few thousand years and is typically
| pretty minor when it happens. Especially given that it is
| usually completely predictable when it happens. Tornadoes don't
| suddenly appear out of a blue sky. There were warnings for the
| last few days that storms capable of producing tornadoes were
| likely for the areas that were hit last night. When the storms
| were going on, the TV networks interrupted programming and had
| the weather forecasters tell where the storms were and where
| they were headed next. Tornado sirens would have been going off
| long before the tornadoes hit. People would be getting texts on
| their phones warning them to take cover.
|
| If you're in a well-built structure, you're going to be fine in
| most tornadoes. Even for EF2 or EF3, you would most likely be
| OK even in a house without a basement if you took shelter in an
| interior closet on the ground floor. If you're in a mobile
| home, you're toast. For an EF4, you have a decent chance if you
| are in an interior room in a basement. So for the vast majority
| of tornadoes, which are already rare, there isn't much reason
| so spend money to protect property when there is already a way
| to protect lives.
|
| For EF5 tornadoes, it would be challenging to build anything
| other than an underground bunker to withstand them. They are
| incredibly rare, Wikipedia says 59 in the US since 1950. An EF5
| tornado doesn't just level a house, it rips it from the
| foundation, sends it flying through the air and shatters it
| into a million pieces. Here's what an EF5 tornado does to a
| house: https://www.spc.noaa.gov/faq/tornado/f5.htm. It can rip
| the asphalt from a roadway and send it flying through the air.
| If you're in a building in the path of an EF5 tornado, you are
| probably best off following the advice my redneck step dad gave
| me when I was a kid for what to do in the case of a nuclear
| attack. He said to head down to the basement to an interior
| hallway, crouch down on the floor, tuck my head down between my
| knees as far as I could, and kiss my ass goodbye.
| coryrc wrote:
| Normal basements are almost underground bunkers, a reinforced
| concrete lid tied into reinforced concrete walls and the
| basement is survivable from F5.
| rufus_foreman wrote:
| Most basements don't have reinforced concrete lids. They
| have a concrete floor and 4 concrete walls.
|
| The basement ceiling is not concrete typically, and in an
| EF5 tornado it floats away into the air like a feather.
|
| Survivable? Sure, with a probability distribution that I
| don't consider particularly favorable.
| coryrc wrote:
| Hence "almost"
| colechristensen wrote:
| Possible? Yes. Practical? Eh...
|
| You either need very thick castle kinds of walls or to sink
| underground and essentially build a big hobbit hole kind of
| construction where wind hits a gentle slope instead of a flat
| wall.
|
| A building designed to take an 80 mph wind is just a lot
| different than one to take a 250mph wind. One is basically
| guaranteed and the other an extreme rarity.
| mmastrac wrote:
| Non-Fox, alternate source with drone footage, for those with a
| preference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROXs0F7gcc4
|
| EDIT: Oops, wrong tornado (same day, different state).
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsBzadyNWRY has a view of the
| Tornado from a local nearby, however.
| exolymph wrote:
| tfw you want to avoid Fox so you accidentally post fake news.
| lol
| mmastrac wrote:
| I think you are grossly and uncharitably misrepresenting my
| comment by calling it "fake news" when I clearly pointed out
| my mistake and posted a correction inline with "EDIT" as soon
| as I was made aware. I don't think your response is an
| appropriate one in the spirit of Hacker News and I think you
| should reconsider this style of response.
| tpmx wrote:
| Doesn't it seem like the cars in that (horrible) path of
| destruction survived better than the buildings?
| [deleted]
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Well a modern car is a steel safety cage on wheels. It's
| designed and tested to withstand impacts, rollovers, etc.
| while keep the occupants safe (or at least, not crushed).
| tpmx wrote:
| It was meant in reference to this comment:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29521461
| Kye wrote:
| As far as I know Fox TV stations have no connection to the Fox
| with the cable news channel aside from being part of the same
| company in the past.
|
| edit: https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/fox-affiliates-we-
| are-...
| setpatchaddress wrote:
| It's reasonable for people with center-right, centrist, or
| left-leaning politics to distrust Fox affiliates. Some of
| them are in fact still owned by the same company as Fox News.
|
| TV network affiliates can be either independently owned or
| owned & operated by the network. Disney did not acquire
| either the Fox TV network or the Fox TV O&O stations in the
| recent Fox studio sale to Disney, likely because Disney
| already owns the ABC TV network and strategic ABC affiliates.
| almost_usual wrote:
| This is the tornado that hit Kentucky not Edwardsville
| Illinois.
| daenz wrote:
| I wonder what the insurance payout is for this? And the tax
| write-offs. Is it that simple, financially, just on a larger
| scale? Or is the scale too big for normal processes.
| dv_dt wrote:
| At Amazons scale the best thing might be to self insure.
| Remember insurance is paying a premium on assets to prevent an
| loss that you might not be able to re-raise capital for. At a
| large enough scale, there little point to paying the premium
| because that one warehouse of capital loss is a drop in the
| overall budget.
| db65edfc7996 wrote:
| Pardon my ignorance, but what does it mean to self-insure?
| Does that just mean you have enough money on hand to cover
| the losses if it happens?
| pinko wrote:
| Yes, exactly. Actuaries are quite good at their jobs, which
| means the cumulative lifetime cost of insurance generally
| exceeds the (cost of covering a loss * the probability of
| that loss), so the only three good reasons to buy insurance
| are:
|
| (1) you can't afford to cover the loss if it should occur
| (or maintaining/raising cash to cover it would be more
| expensive than the cost of insurance);
|
| (2) the peace of mind from knowing you won't have to worry
| about raising cash to cover a loss (even if you could cover
| it) is worth the cost of insurance to you, even if it's a
| bad deal financially; or
|
| (3) you know more than the insurance actuaries about your
| individual risk profile and have an edge (which is rare but
| can happen -- e.g., you know a specific product model is
| extraordinarily likely to fail and buy a cheap extended
| warranty for it).
|
| The first is the best and primary reason to buy insurance,
| the other two are corner cases.
| daenz wrote:
| Is there any legal/procedural aspect to self-insuring, or
| is it just a placeholder for saying "we'll eat the costs"
| ?
| dv_dt wrote:
| I think it's generally a phrase only used when it is a
| conscious decision or analysis for an area that generally
| already has insurance policys commonly written. Eg fire
| insurance for buildings and contents.
| more_corn wrote:
| It's possible to file for an exception to auto liability
| insurance by proving that you can cover any liability up
| to and including the state minimum for liability
| insurance coverage.
| adrianmonk wrote:
| Generally, I would think there's
| paperwork/procedure/approvals required whenever the
| insurance protects more than just you.
|
| Auto liability insurance is an example because it
| protects other drivers. Another example might be
| homeowner's insurance, which (if you have a loan)
| protects the lender too because the house is collateral.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Insurance does not remove liability from you personally.
| If you cause damage with your car, you are liable for it
| whether you are insured or not. The insurance is a
| private contract between you and the insurer where you
| basically agree to pay them a monthly amount and they
| agree to cover any losses you may be liable for (up to
| some pre-agreed limit). But the liability is not theirs,
| it is yours, and if the damages exceed your coverage
| limit, you are responsible for the difference.
| humanistbot wrote:
| Yup, pretty sure they self-insure. Some big car rental
| companies also self-insure, because they are at the scale
| where they already have their own repair shops, and the
| premiums would be more expensive than just paying out the
| damages themselves (edit: and then they can sell their own
| insurance to renters!)
| KboPAacDA3 wrote:
| There will be a salvage company to carry away anything
| worthwhile, possibly paying Amazon pennies per pound. Some of
| the salvage will end up at salvage bid yards or flea markets.
| unionpivo wrote:
| > Some of the salvage will end up at salvage bid yards or
| flea markets.
|
| Or back on amazon, under the different name
| amznbad wrote:
| Was there a severe storm warning in effect at the time? If so,
| what actions did Amazon take to reduce the exposure to this risk?
|
| Did Amazon have effective storm shelters on site?
|
| Did Amazon warn folks with enough time to reach shelters?
|
| My suspicions here are that Amazon again prioritized profit ahead
| of safety. But the people who pay the price are the individual
| workers.
|
| My heart goes out to all the families who lost loved ones or who
| are dealing with the anxiety of not knowing if they have.
| [deleted]
| fennecfoxen wrote:
| Why is Amazon on Hacker News? It's just some dumb online store.
| ranrotx wrote:
| Why is this on Hacker News? It's obviously a delivery station,
| not any kind of data center based on the trucks that were inside
| the facility in the video.
| jimt1234 wrote:
| Mentions of "tornado sirens" in these comments are triggering bad
| memories from my childhood in the Midwest. The house I grew up in
| had a tornado siren on our property, probably about 100 feet from
| my bedroom window. It was so f--king loud!!! And it felt like it
| last forever. Ugh!
| nerbert wrote:
| "If you're ever in such a facility and a tornado hits, hide in a
| truck" is my take from this video.
|
| Edit: it's a bad take, read below.
| listless wrote:
| A guy I knew in college was in a truck when a tornado hit and
| it threw that truck like an angry toddler with a hot wheels.
| They found the truck more than a mile away. The guy wasn't even
| in it anymore. They found him in several locations.
|
| DO NOT get in a car for safety in a Tornado.
| pfdietz wrote:
| There was another case at the University of Maryland some
| years back. Two women were in a car that got picked up and
| tossed over (or into?) some trees. They did not survive.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornado_outbreak_of_September_.
| ..
|
| "Tragically, [the victims] had just left the building and
| were driving away when the funnel picked them up and carried
| the car several hundred yards, over one of the high-rise
| dorms, before dropping the car into the woods beyond."
|
| https://www.astro.umd.edu/~white/images/tornado/
|
| Submitted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29522918
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| Your comment is BS on the order of "I know a guy who didn't
| die in an accident because he wasn't wearing his seat-belt
| and was thrown clear"
|
| Vehicle cabins are far stronger than all but the most heavily
| built of above ground structures. They are expressly designed
| to be as survivable as possible in the kind of rollover
| accident that being tossed by wind is similar to.
| Furthermore, there's negligible chance of being killed by the
| car itself sustaining damage. This is very much not true
| about any sort of building. You might not get tossed in a
| stick build structure or steel warehouse style building but
| does that really matter if a wall or pallet rack falls on
| you?
|
| Of course a purpose built shelter or below ground level area
| is better but if those aren't available a car is your next
| best option.
| kodah wrote:
| That's an absolutely terrible idea. Trucks are built with thin
| metal and probably have objects inside, not to mention could be
| easily lifted off the ground and thrown. In areas that are
| susceptible to tornados buildings are usually supposed to be
| built with at least one or two areas that have no windows and
| reinforced surroundings to hide when tornado alarms go off.
| wyldfire wrote:
| Yes there definitely was an interior bathroom designed as
| tornado shelter in this building. While it may or may not
| have stayed intact, it was your best chance at survival.
| scrose wrote:
| I'm pretty sure their comment was based on the almost
| flawless looking trucks in the rubble...
| colechristensen wrote:
| Which are only there because tornadoes are extremely local
| events, you can be very close to the destruction and come
| out unscathed. Like it can reduce your house to toothpicks
| and leave your neighbors house entirely unharmed.
| jeffbee wrote:
| That is interesting but for all we know there was another
| row of trucks in the middle part that got picked up and
| thrown for miles.
|
| My Oklahoma high school took a direct hit from a tornado
| and cars in the parking lot were found wadded up all over
| town. If a tornado can pick up an Oldsmobile it can pick up
| a Sprinter.
|
| Refer to these photos of what a tornado does to a truck. ht
| tps://www.washingtonpost.com/photography/interactive/2021/.
| ..
| nerbert wrote:
| Correct. Also I'm ignorant about tornadoes.
| jcranmer wrote:
| That is a _very_ bad take. What you are seeing are only those
| trucks that survived--because the trucks that _didn 't_ survive
| are too badly mangled to identify as trucks. If you look at
| some of the later pictures in this photo deck
| (https://fox2now.com/news/illinois/photos-tornado-destroys-
| ed...), you can make out several trucks whose occupants would
| be dead. At least one truck appears to be sheared cleanly in
| two. The trucks that survived appear to have done so largely
| because they were out of the main debris field.
| nerbert wrote:
| Good to know, thanks for that!
| dahart wrote:
| That's actually a really damn good point! I didn't expect to
| see much from the video that wasn't in the title, but I was
| struck by how complete the damage was in the tornado path; both
| sides of the building still there, and the middle so completely
| flattened, save the trucks.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| Par for the course with tornados. Things stand that shouldn't
| and thing that should have stood, don't.
| dahart wrote:
| I'm not entirely sure what should or shouldn't stand, but I
| guess I would speculate warehouse walls have a much higher
| surface area to mass ratio than cars, it certainly makes
| some sense to me that the building could go while the cars
| could stand, maybe especially if it's less than EF4/5, no?
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| Any tornado can throw or flip a car.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| I grew up in the northern Midwest, where tornados happen semi-
| regularly. If you're facing a tornado and in a vehicle, you're
| supposed to abandon the vehicle and get to a ditch or some
| other low point that provides solid sideways protection and lay
| down as flat as you can.
|
| Tornados are weirdly destructive. Some things that get directly
| hit survive when they shouldn't. Vehicles are not built to take
| the damage even a small tornado brings.
|
| https://www.spc.noaa.gov/faq/tornado/safety.html
| dev_tty01 wrote:
| As a small child, I once spent time lying in a ditch while
| visiting relatives who lived in a Tornado prone region. We
| got in the ditch because it was after dark and we could hear
| a tornado getting close but we couldn't see anything. We were
| lucky that it passed close to our farm but not upon us. The
| chaos and the violence of the wind and noise was terrifying.
| The visible path through the woods nearby the next morning
| had an alien feel to it. I remember the smell of tree sap
| from the many trees broken off and ripped apart. I feel so
| much for the many folks that endured those storms last night.
| dahart wrote:
| Aren't there a lot of roads in the Midwest that have ditches
| for this reason? That page does seem to suggest that if you
| don't have a ditch lower than the roadway nearby, staying low
| inside the car might be better than getting out, due to
| deadly flying debris? You're toast if the vehicle takes
| flight, of course, but I guess statistically that's not super
| common?
|
| * bewildered by the downvotes, but just to clarify, the NOAA
| page says explicitly: "In a car or truck: [...] If you are
| caught by extreme winds or flying debris, park the car as
| quickly and safely as possible -- out of the traffic lanes.
| Stay in the car with the seat belt on. Put your head down
| below the windows; cover your head with your hands and a
| blanket, coat, or other cushion if possible."
| vidanay wrote:
| No. The ditches are for water drainage and Dragula's.
| colechristensen wrote:
| High winds are not tornadoes, these are very different
| circumstances. You are trying not to get hit by a tornado,
| and if you do trying not to get relocated by one, or you're
| trying not to get hit by something thrown by a tornado. A
| high wind isn't going to throw a house at you or a shard of
| metal though a tree, a tornado will. There are small ones
| that are mostly harmless and will at most knock over some
| corn, it's hard telling the difference between one of those
| and one that will pick you up and throw you a quarter mile.
|
| Absolutely do not hide in a vehicle from a tornado. You
| want to be low and near something well anchored. Inside a
| ditch, huddled up next to an overpass foundation, etc.
|
| A tornado either hits you it doesn't, but few people in
| places where there are tornadoes are going to be dumb
| enough to be near one in a vehicle. You can avoid them
| while in your vehicle but even seasoned storm chasers still
| sometimes get taken.
|
| Source: Iowa raised, been a handful of meters away from a
| weather event that lifted and shifted a couple of buildings
| a foot off their foundations and peeled a section of roof
| from a barn. It may have been a microburst instead of a
| tornado, it was quite dark at the time.
|
| And no, the ditches are there for water drainage like the
| other poster said... though I'm not sure about vampires :)
| BenjiWiebe wrote:
| Just to add, straightline winds (not tornadoes) do not
| change direction suddenly. A car is very aerodynamic, and
| if you face into the straightline wind with it, it's a
| good place to be.
|
| Tornadoes on the other hand are circular (roughly). Plus
| subvortices inside of the tornado make for unpredictable
| and turbulent wind.
|
| Your car may handle the 200mph wind fairly well in one
| direction, but the next second it hits you at a right
| angle and bye bye.
| paulcole wrote:
| Real "put armor on the tips of the wings energy."
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
| actually_a_dog wrote:
| Ideally, you want to be inside a windowless, concrete structure
| that's built into the ground. The closest thing like that
| that's typically available to people is a basement, which is
| why the advice is to go to the basement in a house that has
| one.
| disabled wrote:
| Amazon is going to get sued hardcore, guaranteed. The issue is
| that nobody had to die. Even kids' summer camps in tornado prone
| zones have this figured out. The summer camp I went to had 2
| rooms in the camp's gym that were formal tornado shelters. The
| gym, with these tornado shelter rooms, were built in 2001. The
| entire camp (300+ people) could fit in these rooms. Everyone
| could technically sleep in there too, but obviously they would
| split us up into boys/girls rooms and the counselors would still
| be watching us the whole time.
|
| The 2 rooms themselves were basically a 12" enclosure (including
| the ceilings). There were also concrete pillars in the room to
| reinforce the structure. During normal times we used them for
| various activities. But, at least during a couple of summers, we
| had to evacuate (from the cabins or wherever) there. The program
| staff (people in charge of the camp) were always monitoring the
| meteorological radar 24/7. This was in North Texas, which is
| tornado alley. The camp was an hour north of the Dallas/Ft. Worth
| metroplex.
| MrFoof wrote:
| Amazon warehouses are Tilt-Up Construction. Basically
| 4-to-6-inch thick cast concrete panels on a grid on metal tubes
| as joists. Support pillars with basic trusses, and a roof tying
| it together.
|
| You lose a ton of stability once that roof is gone. You lose a
| truss or a few pillars, and I'd imagine it came down like a
| house of concrete cards very, very quickly after the first wall
| section fell.
|
| It has no chance against a tornado direct hit. You need a
| dedicated shelter structure for that.
| DonHopkins wrote:
| Rescuers were relieved to discover that many of the apparent
| injuries in the fulfillment center were only Wicked Witch of The
| East Legs Props.
|
| https://www.amazon.com/MyPartyShirt-Wicked-Witch-East-Legs/d...
| ocdtrekkie wrote:
| I'm not sure comedy is appropriate when at least two people
| died during this.
| nitrogen wrote:
| Humor is one of the ways humans process tragedy. Our modern
| culture's hostility to humor makes the emotional aftermath of
| tragedy worse by removing this coping mechanism.
| macintux wrote:
| When it comes to random people on the Internet making jokes
| about mass casualty events, it certainly _feels_ more like
| callousness than coping.
| almog wrote:
| At least one of the people who died inside the facility was a 29
| years old maintenance worker. I do not know how predictable
| tornadoes such as this are, but I won't be surprised if these
| deaths could have been prevented.
|
| Source: https://twitter.com/AmeliaMtv/status/1469634726558412800
| kordlessagain wrote:
| There is very little reason for anyone in that building dying!
| So sad!
| Jerrrry wrote:
| Beside the tornado's direct hit?
| CaliforniaKarl wrote:
| No.
|
| Buildings in Tornado-prone areas must be built with tornado
| shelters. Those are rooms within the building that are
| designed to withstand both a hit from a tornado, and the
| debris.
|
| To be clear, the entire building does not need to be a
| tornado shelter. Just enough space within the building to
| hold its occupants.
| [deleted]
| derekjdanserl wrote:
| Tornado shelters are not exactly a novel idea.
| Tagbert wrote:
| Tornados can be predicted in broad terms but are highly
| variable on the ground.
|
| Weather forecasts can usually identify that the conditions
| favorable for tornados are happening. That is announced as a
| Tornado Watch. If someone sees a tornado, they will issue a
| Tornado Warning, usually for the whole county. They will sound
| sirens if available. People are urged to take shelter, ideally
| underground. Otherwise they are told to shelter in the most
| substantial part of a building. Many people do take shelter but
| others decide to tough it out.
|
| Tornados are relatively small compared to hurricanes and
| earthquakes but they are very intense within a few hundred foot
| wide area where they tear everything apart and blow it around
| with 300mph winds doing more destruction with that debris. They
| move in erratic directions and can pickup and hop around. There
| can be multiple tornados at one time.
|
| Any one person is not a great risk of harm but anyone in the
| path of the tornado is at great risk. People living in the area
| have been through tornado warnings before without harm. This
| can lead to people assuming that they will be fine and not
| taking precautions. Chances are they are right but if they are
| wrong... it goes very wrong.
| josephwegner wrote:
| This is accurate. Particularly the "alarm fatigue".
|
| I've lived in the Midwest my whole life. I've heard many
| tornado sirens, been through many watches and warnings, and
| never once actually been close to a tornado that did any
| damage.
|
| A few months ago I was woken in the middle of the night by my
| wife who heard sirens. I was groggy, and before I was
| convinced to get out of bed, the sirens stopped. This has
| happened dozens of times in my life, and felt entirely
| routine - there was no panic. A few minutes later my phone
| gave an emergency alert announcing a Tornado Watch. I decided
| it was time to move to the basement, so I went downstairs and
| set up candles and blankets, and then began the process of
| gently waking my 3 young children in an attempt to move them
| without terrifying them.
|
| As I moved the last of them, I glanced at a clock and saw it
| was 11:53. We moved to the basement and all was quiet. It
| seemed like another false alarm.
|
| The next morning I discovered that the tornado hit two blocks
| away from me, and leveled entire street's worth of houses.
| Radar confirmed the tornado passed through my neighborhood at
| 11:50. If I had been two blocks south, at least me and my son
| would be dead. Potentially more of us.
|
| Alarm fatigue is real, but don't let it happen with tornado
| sirens. They come quick and hit hard.
| almog wrote:
| While I can really *relate and understand how a "alarm
| fatigue" can build up, especially when you have to choose
| between sleep and taking shelter. However, I'm guessing
| that since these workers were currently at work, at an
| Amazon facility, have the reputation of being infamous for
| monitoring and clocking workers, these alarm fatigue
| considerations would not apply in the same way.
|
| What might apply creating similar alarm fatigue effect, and
| this is really just me guessing based on Amazon facilities
| reputation, is the incentive (or its lack thereof) Amazon
| may provide for workers to evacuate vs continue their work.
|
| * I have never experienced tornado alarm, but have
| experienced multiple rockets alarms, some of which, I've
| (foolishly) decided to ignore in favor of getting another
| hour of sleep.
| Maursault wrote:
| > Tornados can be predicted in broad terms
|
| There are occasions where tornados can be predicted
| accurately with radar data, yet with only about a 4 minute
| lead time. The hook echo has been recognized for decades with
| recognition and detection further refined with Next Gen
| Doppler radar.[1] But not all tornadic storms display a hook
| echo and not all hook echoes produce tornadoes.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_echo
| noodlenotes wrote:
| When you hear a tornado warning, the advice is to shelter in
| place in the most structurally sound part of the building.
| Given that half of the building collapsed, there may not have
| been a safe place. Running away from tornadoes is not
| recommended, and you can't evacuate in advance of a storm
| because the region that tornados may hit is too large. Do you
| think there was a problem with how the building was built?
|
| Here's an article with photos for anyone who doesn't want to
| watch the video: https://fox2now.com/news/illinois/photos-
| tornado-destroys-ed...
| jcranmer wrote:
| A large warehouse is pretty much built as a thin steel shell
| that would be expected to fail in more or less this manner in
| a tornado. However, there is usually an interior building
| within the warehouse that is built much more strongly
| (probably cinder-block masonry) that should withstand a
| tornado strike much more securely. That interior building
| would contain the warehouse offices, the bathrooms, etc., and
| it doesn't appear to be in the collapsed portion of the
| warehouse.
| 2xpress wrote:
| At least for Amazon warehouses that are not in tornado
| areas, warehouse workers are instructed by the managers to
| go to the center of the warehouse building during extreme
| weather events.
|
| I do not know for sure if that same procedure would have
| applied to DLI4. But my feeling is that unless the state of
| Illinois, Madison County, or the city of Edwardsville have
| a specific regulation requiring such buildings to have
| tornado shelters, then there was no such shelter at DLI4,
| and workers were instructed to assemble in the center of
| the building.
|
| Internal office sections of large Amazon fulfillment
| centers are off-limits to non-managers, and unauthorized
| entry is prevented thru the use of door badge scanners,
| which will not unlock the door unless the badge owner has
| sufficient permissions.
|
| I can't imagine what an awful, dehumanizing, and absolutely
| terrifying experience it was.
| mgerdts wrote:
| > Do you think there was a problem with how the building was
| built?
|
| It is quite impractical to build a large building that will
| withstand a tornado. The fact that the building was cut in
| half and the contents largely removed is not terribly
| surprising.
|
| Buildings like this (including big box stores, large grocery
| stores, office buildings, etc.) typically have designated
| tornado shelter areas. These should be on the lowest floor
| (below ground level is the best) with small rooms. The walls
| are generally made of cinder blocks or something sturdier. If
| you are in a building like this, need a tornado shelter, and
| don't know where it is look for the restrooms. When you get
| there you will likely find a sign that indicates it is the
| tornado shelter.
| oblib wrote:
| "It is quite impractical to build a large building that
| will withstand a tornado"
|
| It's also quite obvious there's a need for a shelter in
| areas where tornadoes are likely to form. So obvious in
| fact it's impossible to plead ignorance of that need, so
| the only other possible reason they didn't is carelessness
| because they could not have cared less if employees lives
| were at risk.
| cma wrote:
| That defintely seems best, especially if underground any,
| but the footage shows a lot of shredded solid brick walls
| (footage from the Kentucky one, not the Illinois):
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZMAmxP5cgs
|
| Cinder-block with metal reinforcement is a level beyond
| brick though.
| grogenaut wrote:
| It's hard to build most buildings to handle a big tornado.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercy_Hospital_Joplin is a
| concrete hospital that took a direct hit, the building is
| standing but it took very large amounts of damage and
| that's a beefy expensive building.
|
| Was at my friends house in texas a month ago who had a
| storm shelter in the garage, it's a 1/4" steel box that is
| anchored to the ground and has the GPS coordinates etched
| on the inside since if it does it's job there may not be
| anything around but GPS to tell you where it is.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| If you read the whole article, the building was
| demolished afterwards due to be structurally unsound.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| Wait, I'm not sure how having the GPS coordinates etched
| helps anything. What do they get used for?
| _ph_ wrote:
| I would guess if you call for help you can tell potential
| rescuers those coordinates.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Warehouses (any big-box building really) are among the worst
| places to be in a tornado. Maybe such buildings in tornado-
| prone areas should have storm cellars or reinforced "safe
| rooms" for shelter.
| Copernicron wrote:
| Are tornadoes a common occurrence in December? We don't get them
| where I'm from and I can't remember hearing about anything like
| this before.
|
| My heart goes out to the families of those involved. This would
| be devastating at the best of times.
| actually_a_dog wrote:
| Historically, tornado season is from March through June, but,
| they can happen any day of the year.
| enraged_camel wrote:
| No, tornadoes are definitely very rare in December, when it
| tends to be too cold for them to form. Continental US has been
| experiencing a very unusual heat-wave across the board though,
| and it has been causing havoc in normal weather patterns.
| cthalupa wrote:
| >No, tornadoes are definitely very rare in December, when it
| tends to be too cold for them to form.
|
| I would not go so far as to say 'Very rare.' Even before we
| started seeing more major impact to our climate due to global
| warming, winter tornado outbreaks were roughly ~10% of all
| tornado outbreaks.
| https://www.spc.noaa.gov/publications/galway/winter.pdf
|
| Spring and fall are definitely the most active seasons for
| tornados but they occur often enough year round that I think
| that, at least for the US, you can't say tornados are rarer
| than 'uncommon' for any time of year.
| voidfunc wrote:
| Interesting logistics problem, I wonder how good Amazon is about
| re-routing deliveries from other warehouses if a local one goes
| down? This is bad time of the year to be losing a distribution
| center.
| smashed wrote:
| And is it a good time of the year to die inside an amazon
| warehouse? I am sure 99% of people waiting for their deliveries
| with any kind of human compassion will understand the
| situation.
| SQueeeeeL wrote:
| Wait, what country do you live in? Can I move there? I feel
| like most Americans don't view the human component of any of
| their transactions anymore, and have relegated nearly
| everything to out of sight, out of mind.
| smashed wrote:
| You got me... Canada ;)
| jedberg wrote:
| While you bring up an interesting question, it's important to
| note that people died in that building. Perhaps some compassion
| is in order.
|
| To answer your question though, unless the item someone ordered
| is unique and only stored in that warehouse, they will probably
| just mark the warehouse as down and the system will simply
| route around it and increase delivery estimates for the people
| who were served by that warehouse. They will probably redeploy
| the surviving trucks to nearby warehouses to handle the load.
| Kye wrote:
| I'll be honest: I'm not sure what the appropriate way to show
| compassion is here if it's not the purpose of the comment.
| Does every person commenting on something adjacent to the
| situation need to display compassion in this (still unknown)
| way?
|
| Asking seriously. I want those complete strangers to not be
| in situations where they could die, and I want no one to die
| the same way in the future because someone did an engineering
| and made it safer. But they _are_ people I don 't/didn't
| know. Anything I could think of to say would feel as useless
| as "thoughts and prayers."
| jedberg wrote:
| Not ask the question. Or at least acknowledge that people
| died before asking the question.
| Kye wrote:
| Was anyone under the illusion no one died when the
| tornado reduced half the building to scrap? I'm still not
| sure what the purpose is. If someone actually affected or
| connected to someone affected comes here and shares,
| that's different. Otherwise, it's not clear who it's
| _for_. "Performative" is overused by jerks who think
| everyone is as cynical and calculating as they are, but
| this seems to be a rare case where it actually applies. I
| don't see the purpose in this action you suggest. It
| seems like you went off on /u/voidfunc for no good
| reason.
| voidfunc wrote:
| > While you bring up an interesting question, it's important
| to note that people died in that building. Perhaps some
| compassion is in order.
|
| I don't know why I need to provide a token "thoughts and
| prayers" just because my question is related to some tragedy.
| Everything has become so absolutely performative these days.
|
| Yes, I am sorry this happened to some people. But I guess I'm
| an asshole because I didn't write some meaningless
| consolatory words in a comment on a tech forum before having
| the audacity to ask a legitimate logistics question.
|
| Thanks for the answer, but please skip the condescension next
| time.
| jedberg wrote:
| > I don't know why I need to provide a token "thoughts and
| prayers" just because my question is related to some
| tragedy.
|
| To show you care about the humans that died. It's not
| performative. It's called being part of a society. Society
| prefers members who show compassion to others, and it's an
| important part of being a social creature.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| This is a ludicrous expectation from a casual online
| discussion. voidfunc has no obligation to signal their
| compassion or lack of compassion, nor is society any
| worse off for the lack of that information in this
| context.
| arbitrary_name wrote:
| For all you know, he could have just donated to the
| victims' gofundme after running a candlelit vigil, but
| here you are.
|
| Feel free to express how upset you are, but please don't
| demand that we somehow express our feelings in a way that
| you deem sufficient.
| 0x0nyandesu wrote:
| This is a great example of why I'm really starting to
| hate the internet. You can't express any opinion these
| days without a few paragraphs with your life story
| explaining why you're allowed to have such an opinion.
| (For example having to be Jewish to say anything critical
| about Israel)
| TMWNN wrote:
| Similarly, since 2016, the obligatory "I hate Trump but"
| [discussion of why a Trump proposal/initiative may not be
| a horrible idea]
| 0x0nyandesu wrote:
| I voted for Biden but [semi conservative opinion].
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| CaliforniaKarl wrote:
| > I don't know why I need to provide a token "thoughts and
| prayers" just because my question is related to some
| tragedy. Everything has become so absolutely performative
| these days.
|
| You could instead not post.
|
| > But I guess I'm an asshole because I didn't write some
| meaningless consolatory words in a comment on a tech forum
| before having the audacity to ask a legitimate logistics
| question.
|
| Timing is everything. There is a time to discuss those sort
| of things; this is not it.
| voidfunc wrote:
| > You could instead not post.
|
| As far as I can tell my question is in line with the
| guidelines of the site and the submission itself doesn't
| provide any clarity about what the discourse of this
| thread is supposed to be about. It is quite open-ended.
|
| > Timing is everything. There is a time to discuss those
| sort of things; this is not it.
|
| Since you seem to know what time that will be, when is
| it?
| [deleted]
| adam_arthur wrote:
| Tomorrow at 2pm, of course!
| TheSpiceIsLife wrote:
| I'm with you.
|
| Imagine everyone at Amazon directly involved in the
| operational disaster recovering effort having to preface
| everything they say and write with "thoughts and prays"
| before getting on with fixing issues.
|
| We're well aware people have died, and many more will have
| their lives impacted.
|
| I'm an infrastructure and steel construction guy, I'm here
| to get shit done. If you need consoling you'll find me
| quite abrasive as you're probably in my way.
|
| Friends, family, mental healthcare professionals, and
| religious practitioners are probably better at that than I.
| kordlessagain wrote:
| Next time I'll skip posting a tragedy. :P
| lettergram wrote:
| I understand the concern about tornados, but living in the
| Midwest I gotta be honest I have zero concerns. Tornados are rare
| and might only be 50-200ft wide.
|
| I'm much more concerned about general high winds. I live in a
| neighborhood amongst the fields and we regularly get 50-70 mph
| sustained winds with 70-90 mph gusts. We get these storms 2-4
| times a year. Last night we had 40 mph winds with 55mph gusts.
|
| To put it in perspective I've watched my neighbors fence blow
| apart and slam cars and neighbors windows/walls. Watched large
| play sets roll down the street, etc. our HOA had to put in rules
| about using iron / aluminum fences for this reason.
|
| A couple years ago we had a thunderstorm & snow storm with high
| winds and temperatures were just right so everything built up a
| nice 1-2 inches of ice so power went out. Again way worse than
| tornadoes.
| almost_usual wrote:
| Hail also sucks
| _fat_santa wrote:
| One of my old bosses bought a Subaru, she said the night she
| brought it come they had a massive hailstorm and when she
| filed an insurance claim they ended up totaling the car.
|
| I guess the only silver lining is there are plenty of
| "salvage title" cars out here that are salvage just because
| of hail. Great for anyone that needs a car and doesn't care
| about dents.
| arbitrary_name wrote:
| If you get enough of them hail dings, they act like
| golfball dents and improve the aerodynamics: i buy cars
| with 'em for the better mileage.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| And if you don't mind the appearance, it's a great way to
| buy a new or nearly-new car for cheap.
| cryptoz wrote:
| > everything built up a nice 1-2 inches of ice so power went
| out. Again way worse than tornadoes.
|
| Somewhere around _100 people died just last night_ in these
| tornados. I think your couple inches of ice and power outage
| and fences in cars is not so bad compared to these tornados
| last night.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| In terms of destructiveness, yes the tornados are worse. But
| OP is saying that in terms of frequency*destructiveness*area,
| high winds are more impactful to his life.
| cableshaft wrote:
| Also in the Midwest, had those winds last night. The wind
| knocked down two fence sections in between our backyard and the
| neighbor's backyard this morning. I didn't notice and let the
| dogs out and they got to explore the neighbors back yard for
| almost 15 minutes before I realized I hadn't seen them for a
| while.
|
| Our section of the fence used to have issues also, but we spent
| an afternoon recently reinforcing the weak sections, and it
| held up just fine last night. If that had gone down though,
| they'd get to run directly into a prairie and anywhere in town,
| so I feel pretty lucky it was just part of the fence with my
| neighbor.
|
| One of the two dogs did run away as a puppy (slipped out of a
| harness to escape going into the vet's office) and it took us
| four days to find and retrieve him, so I have firsthand
| experience and I definitely do not want to go through that
| process again, hopefully ever.
| macintux wrote:
| Brutal night throughout the region. From the photos I've seen,
| the candle factory in Mayfield is the worst-hit; storm shelters
| can only do so much.
| ohgodplsno wrote:
| Ah, so that's what Amazon means when they tell you your stuff is
| safer in the cloud.
| user-the-name wrote:
| Not funny.
| geerlingguy wrote:
| It's just across the river from my hometown; the entire Metro St.
| Louis area had a few tornado sirens last night, as a wall of
| warnings swept across our region.
|
| It seems like the worst tornado was this one that ripped through
| the warehouse (other pictures show some trees that had foliage
| stripped); you don't mess around with a tornado warning. It can
| drop pretty much anywhere along a storm front, or even sometimes
| in the middle or tail end of a front, especially when all the
| atmospheric conditions aligned like they did yesterday.
|
| There was a much larger storm that seemed to have a 200 mi or so
| path through Arkansas, Missouri, Kansas and I think Ohio(?) last
| night. Some of these storms are still getting severe warnings
| this morning!
| throwawayboise wrote:
| When I was a kid, a "Tornado Warning" meant that a tornado had
| been spotted and was something you took pretty seriously. There
| was another advisory called a "Tornado Watch" that meant
| conditions were favorable for tornados to develop.
|
| Now, it seems that every semi-heavy thunderstorm comes with a
| "Tornado Warning" based on radar returns and other metrics.
| They happen so often it's hard to get too worked up about them.
| Another case of boy who cried wolf.
| dredmorbius wrote:
| Your understanding is incorrect.
|
| A _warning_ means a funnel has been sighted or detected
| (e.g., by weather radar).
|
| A _warning_ means tornadic conditions are highly favourable.
|
| From NOAA:
|
| _What is the difference between a Tornado WATCH and a
| Tornado WARNING?_
|
| _A Tornado WATCH is issued by the NOAA Storm Prediction
| Center meteorologists who watch the weather 24 /7 across the
| entire U.S. for weather conditions that are favorable for
| tornadoes and severe weather. A watch can cover parts of a
| state or several states. Watch and prepare for severe weather
| and stay tuned to NOAA Weather Radio to know when warnings
| are issued._
|
| _A Tornado WARNING is issued by your local NOAA National
| Weather Service Forecast Office meteorologists who watch the
| weather 24 /7 over a designated area. This means a tornado
| has been reported by spotters or indicated by radar and there
| is a serious threat to life and property to those in the path
| of the tornado. A tornado warning indicates that you should
| ACT NOW to find safe shelter! A warning can cover parts of
| counties or several counties in the path of danger._
|
| https://www.nssl.noaa.gov/education/svrwx101/tornadoes/
|
| It's quite likely that either detection (and so sightings)
| has improved, or that tornados are now more prevalent in
| actuality. There's good evidence for both.
| black_13 wrote:
| Even god hates Amazon .
| Tempest1981 wrote:
| For those unfamiliar with the US Midwest and Edwardsville... here
| is a map of where the tornado hit. Looks like 2 swaths of
| destruction:
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/11/us/tornado-ma...
|
| I know it's paywall'd, but I couldn't find any any other media
| outlet with a simple damage map like this.
| Tempest1981 wrote:
| It's interesting that Google can snapshot a few tiles from the
| nytimes graphics, but the archive sites cannot:
|
| https://images.app.goo.gl/2ME6uXYXHCATVGYT6
| nodesocket wrote:
| I live in Nashville (moved from San Francisco in 2018) and this
| is the second Tornado scare I've had. The first in March of 2020
| did significant damage in my last neighborhood of Germantown. The
| weather here in Tennessee still amazes and frankly scares me a
| bit. I'm just not used to it coming from California. Thankfully
| this time no real damage to my home or West side neighborhood.
| actually_a_dog wrote:
| Not only did it hit an Amazon warehouse, it traveled 200 miles
| across 4 states in 4 hours, which is a record.
|
| https://www.nbcnews.com/news/weather/quad-state-tornado-cros...
|
| Edit: Yes, this is the same tornado: https://meaww.com/tornado-
| warning-amazon-warehouse-edwardsvi...
|
| Edit 2: Hmm. Maybe not. Looks like I was wrong initially, and the
| fact this tornado hit the same night as an Amazon warehouse got
| leveled by another tornado is just the world's shittiest
| coincidence.
| lightlyused wrote:
| Different tornado.
| almost_usual wrote:
| This isn't the same tornado that hit Edwardsville Illinois.
|
| Edit:
|
| https://twitter.com/ellenbacca/status/1469542791659368449?s=...
|
| St. Louis is ~200 miles to the north (Edwardsville is an
| Illinois suburb in metro east). The tornado you're referencing
| tracked from Arkansas east, different tornado.
|
| Another source
| https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/11/us/tornado-ma...
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| Tarball10 wrote:
| It's not uncommon for a severe storm system like this to
| produce multiple tornados. The "quad-state tornado" was farther
| to the south, cutting across the bootheel of Missouri, while
| the one that hit the Amazon warehouse was more north, near St.
| Louis.
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