[HN Gopher] Mount Athos, the "Autonomous Monastic State" of Gree...
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Mount Athos, the "Autonomous Monastic State" of Greece (2016)
Author : svenfaw
Score : 124 points
Date : 2021-12-10 14:38 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.cntraveler.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.cntraveler.com)
| AlbertCory wrote:
| The comments prove once again, as if proof was needed, that the
| easiest way to provoke an argument with a bunch of hackers is to
| bring up date-time.
| math_denial wrote:
| I often yearn for the "unearthly quiet" and structure of a
| monastic life. I am not religious but I just feel as if I don't
| belong in society: I don't care about work, jobs, careers,
| riches, fame. I would like a life of study, contemplation and
| silence.
| ModernMech wrote:
| If you don't care about careers, riches, and fame, and want to
| engage in a decade or more of quiet contemplation, then join a
| Ph.D. program. You will be very poor and exist apart from
| society, where you are neither student nor employee. You can
| study as much as you want!
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| Both the PhD experience and the monastic experience have a
| common root in the 6th century BC Pythagorean communities in
| southern Italy.
| peckrob wrote:
| Monastic live is actually pretty varied. There are orders large
| and small, in cities and in the countryside. It can vary from
| your traditional idea of a monastery to a shared house where
| people all work jobs but live a communal life. A good friend of
| mine was a monk in Atlanta; they have a house in a suburban
| neighborhood that you would be hard pressed to identify as
| anything other than a traditional family home from the outside.
| They had about 8-10 men in their order living under an Abbott,
| most working professional jobs.
|
| If this is something you are interested in, many of the larger
| monasteries also function as retreat centers and welcome
| visitors. There's one about 45 minutes from me [0] that I have
| visited a few times and stayed for two nights once as part of
| the marriage preparation courses my wife and I did before
| getting married. You can have a chance to get a feel for what
| life is like for the brethren, even for only a few days.
|
| [0] https://www.stbernardabbey.com/
| elorant wrote:
| I've been twice to Athos, staying at different monasteries each
| time. It's unreal because the lifestyle there is very
| rudimentary. They wake up really early and spend most of the
| day either praying or working. You'll hear no cars or any other
| mechanical sound whatsoever. There's electricity of course, and
| you can bring a phone or laptop if you so wish, but most people
| don't even bother. Add the fact that the region seems idyllic
| with monasteries buried deep into forests a few minutes walk
| from the sea and you can understand why spending a week there
| is so refreshing. By the way, not everyone visiting Athos is
| religious, nor is required.
| Mizza wrote:
| I think a lot about the right to be a monk. It solves a lot of
| other human rights issues along the way. Monks create their own
| food, have a place to live and work, and don't cost a lot of
| money. Let people monk.
| the_only_law wrote:
| Who is stopping them again?
| Mizza wrote:
| I am an atheist. I still want to monk. I want to monk in my
| own way, which would probably be growing vegetables,
| keeping chickens, and making open source software. I don't
| see how that's possible given the way society is currently
| organized - it requires periods of time spent to commercial
| toil, in order to pay landlords, taxes, etc.
| prometheus76 wrote:
| Monks work for their living. They make soaps, candles,
| bread, icons, prayer ropes, translations of holy books,
| etc. There are cooks, and they rebuild/repair the
| buildings. Their work is generally more "local", but one
| of the ways the monasteries survive is by selling their
| goods to the outer world.
|
| The main reason for being a monk is to crucify one's ego
| each day in obedience to one's spiritual father and more
| importantly, to God. "I want to monk my own way"
| completely undermines the whole way of life of a monk.
| toast0 wrote:
| In order to monk, you need a sponsor. Religious monks may
| have a sponsor in their religious organization (although
| their commercial activities may make them self-sufficient
| or often self-sufficient). As an atheist monk, you'd need
| to find someone or group to sponsor you, or do it
| yourself. If you're raising chickens and growing
| vegetables, you may qualify your property to be taxed as
| a farm, which typically is a much reduced rate than a
| property with just a home. If you monk out in the
| countryside, the property is likely to be inexpensive to
| start with.
|
| There's some amount of commercial utility to chickens
| (and their eggs) and vegetables, so you might be able to
| make your sponsorship go farther.
| martythemaniak wrote:
| I think you're underestimating the extent to which
| monasteries are commercial, and have been for many many
| centuries. You don't go there to chill, you go there to
| work hard and earn money for the monastery. In past
| times, they were helped along because they were given a
| monopoly over certain economic activities. Getting a job
| at a sclerotic state-owned enterprise is probably the
| closest equivalent today.
| Mizza wrote:
| The point is not to LARP as a 15th century monk, the
| point is to live a non-commercial life of quiet, focused
| service.
| martythemaniak wrote:
| I dig it, I just think monk is the wrong model.
| gambiting wrote:
| So I'm trying of think of something monastery like, but
| without the religious aspect, and I'm really drawing a
| blank. Since you basically surrender your life to the
| community and ultimately to whoever is leading it, the
| religious element seems almost necessary to make this
| work. I think the only exceptions to this are probably
| something like the military or meditation/yoga practice
| communities - but they almost inevitably come with
| religious elements to them(although in some you can be
| much more lax about actually subscribing to the spiritual
| elements).
| ModernMech wrote:
| Why doesn't academia fit the bill? They even have funny
| robes and hats.
| the_only_law wrote:
| Isn't one of the big problems with academia that you're
| still heavily beholden to economic interests? See: all
| the talk on HN about research being about quantity over
| quality.
|
| At least in the US, it's also incredibly expensive,
| especially if you're not part of target demographic whose
| spent some years optimizing to reduce that cost.
| ModernMech wrote:
| If your goal is to be a top researcher at a top
| university, yeah economic interests are a top concern. If
| instead you just want to study and be left alone, there's
| plenty of room for that. For instance you can just study
| and then teach what you study, then do it again the next
| day. As long as you teach enough students to cover your
| salary (not hard), then there's a place for you.
| vajrabum wrote:
| I'm guessing you haven't talked to many adjuncts. The
| academic life is far from easy for most these days. See
| here for an example.
|
| https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/04/adj
| unc...
| ModernMech wrote:
| I'm a professor and I talk with a lot of adjuncts. I'm
| not saying it's easy, and I don't think the OP of this
| thread was looking for an _easy_ life. They wanted a life
| free of commercial toil in which they could devote
| themselves to raising chickens and open source work. If
| that 's all you want to do, you can do this on an
| adjunct's salary. No commercial work necessary, just
| teaching people what you know.
|
| If you want to raise a family of 4, own property and
| cars, dine out, and do all the normal things that most
| adjuncts want to do, then yeah, that job won't afford you
| the life that you're looking for.
|
| Also I will note that this piece is conflating the
| adjunct position with the property of being non-tenured.
| In fact there are many non-tenured positions that are not
| adjunct positions, and they can pay much more. These can
| be called among other things, "instructor" or "research
| faculty" or "visiting professor".
| jacobmartin wrote:
| The Glass Bead Game (aka Magister Ludi) by Herman Hesse
| is more or less about a secular monastery. I highly
| recommend it.
| the_only_law wrote:
| Oh, ok. Religions seem to get a lot of legacy exceptions
| in society whether that be something like you described
| here, certain Native American peoples having freedom to
| use certain otherwise controlled substances, or like
| someone else mentioned a waiver for the "no women
| allowed" thing.
| neaden wrote:
| Sounds like you want to join a commune? You could look
| into that.
| pc86 wrote:
| And yet here you are, posting on an internet tech forum :)
| swayvil wrote:
| I relate.
|
| I used to live in a communal religious house. Ananda Marga Yoga
| Society.
|
| Vegetarian kitchen. Meditation room. Some rules. Chill people.
|
| It was nice.
|
| USA culture seems committed to keeping you busy, anxious and
| offbalance.
| boringg wrote:
| What's stopping you from attaining that?
| papandada wrote:
| "wherever you go, there you are"
| registeredcorn wrote:
| I hope this doesn't come off sounding the wrong way, but there
| is a difference between being religious (doctrine) and belief
| (faith) in something. I hope you consider what that might mean.
|
| I've been warned by moderators on here for being "too preachy"
| before, so I will leave it at that, but if you wish to talk
| more about it in a different venue, let me know. Cheers.
| ydnaclementine wrote:
| In the book "Wanting", the author has a bit explaining silent
| retreats, which are basically vacations where no one is allowed
| to talk and everyone reads. I thought they were an interesting
| idea to kind of test out monkhood. Similarly, I have always
| wanted to try John Carmack's idea of taking a computer away to
| a hotel for a week and working on a project and ordering room
| service
| jandrewrogers wrote:
| My version of the Carmack thing is taking my laptop on boat
| to Alaska and back for a week. Very limited internet access,
| relaxing scenery, and no interruptions. These have proven to
| be extremely productive weeks.
| kreeben wrote:
| This is really geeky, but I've taken the short trip cross the
| sound to Copenhagen at least three times in the last five
| years to have a weekend with me, myself and my laptop. Smoke
| weed, eat and drink hotel food and hack away at my hobby
| project. I've never felt so refreshed and happy than after a
| weekend like that. Highly recommend it.
| usrusr wrote:
| > I have always wanted to try John Carmack's idea of taking a
| computer away to a hotel for a week and working on a project
| and ordering room service
|
| How much of that desire has survived the lockdowns?
| coldacid wrote:
| When I read Neal Stephenson's "Anathem", the thing that called
| out to me the most in that novel was the "mathic" life of the
| main protagonist and his contemporaries. A life of
| contemplation, study, and garden husbandry is very appealing.
| usrusr wrote:
| I am convinced that in pre-secularism days, when "religious"
| was pretty much the default assumption, there were plenty of
| monks/nuns who went down that path not because they were
| particularly devoted but because they failed to fit into any
| of the conventional roles offered by society but didn't want
| to become outcasts either. Yes, this might be a misconception
| (inspired by Eco/Connery?), but it be surprised if there want
| some truth in it. From that perspective, contemplation and
| study is more a possible nice side effect than the actual
| function. With the modern awareness about how unsustainable a
| norm of spouse-and-three-kids is, perhaps we should consider
| freeing the monastic lifestyle from religious baggage and
| think about a mental framework for "orders" for other kinds
| of lifetime devotions?
| throwawaygal7 wrote:
| I think this is probably a modern bias since we tend to
| under appreciate the sincerity of religious beleif that
| many people had , historically. I'm not saying everyone
| did, but many did.
|
| I think the rigors of monastic life are also off putting to
| someone just wanting to hang out.
|
| anway, if there is a formula for secular monasticism I
| would like to see it. In my view, without the orders and
| vows there is nothing keeping people from leaving - kinda
| like how communes sort of evapoeate after a while.
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| I also have a hunch that people on the autism spectrum /
| Aspergers would end up gravitating towards monastic life in
| the past.
| ehnto wrote:
| The Order of Dependency Management has requested you update
| your package dependencies to the latest versions.
|
| I have always been fascinated with the thought of a post-
| society world, where technology still lingers but can only
| be wielded by few, and perhaps truly understood by none.
| All previous knowledge gone, people would have to tinker,
| poke and problem solve their way to understanding how these
| arcane artifacts and mysterious facilities.
|
| I think it interests me because the idea of idle curiosity
| and discovery in a vacuum seems wholesome and rewarding. No
| roles to fill, no bills to pay, and all your capabilities
| are wrought from your own efforts not bestowed upon you by
| the exchange of money (smartphones, cars, etc).
| mbroncano wrote:
| Maybe you might want to read this book
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Canticle_for_Leibowitz
| themihai wrote:
| As far as I know monastic life is not really work-free or
| worry-free. It's still a society with a lot of baggage. You are
| even expected to work for free and don't question the authority
| of the "upper-class".
|
| The only chance to be "free" would be to live in a very remote
| area, alone. That's a tough life but at least you don't have
| any answer to anyone.
| mc32 wrote:
| >"The only chance to be "free" would be to live in a very
| remote area, alone"
|
| That's the route Daniel Shellabarger [aka Daniel Suelo]
| took[1]. He quit his job and went to live life as a
| hermit/hobo in the Am-Southwest. It's not an easy life --most
| people would not take that deal, but maybe for him it is.
| It's very ad-hoc and with very little regimen.
|
| [1]https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/03/homel
| es...
| boringg wrote:
| Well you do answer to Nature but it isn't a person per se.
|
| I would imagine part of enjoyment of Monastic life is
| surrendering to those in charge of the Monastery.
|
| Good point about monastic life, it is always idealized but as
| with most things in the cosmos reality deviates.
| themihai wrote:
| I doubt that Nature says that only males are allowed to
| enter.
|
| Unless you are a hermit and live in solitude (which is not
| the case on Athos) you still have to answer to the
| community members and obey the community rules which very
| are often made to favour specific members of the community.
| arthur_sav wrote:
| Amen
| fennecfoxen wrote:
| I think there's a small mismatch of expectations. A monastery
| is not generally a "life of study". There may be study and
| prayerful contemplation, but there is definitely labor,
| physical labor -- generally starting with some measure of
| agriculture -- as the community supports itself.
|
| It's also still a society, a small one at least, a group life.
| It is likely to impose on you much more than society in
| general, though in different ways. If you prefer solitude, you
| may be looking to become a hermit, rather than a monk.
|
| In a secular context: You might care about work, jobs, careers,
| and riches, is not for their own sake, but because the riches
| can support you in a life of study. With a million or two from
| tech you can buy a small house somewhere quiet and study there
| all you like.
| trylfthsk wrote:
| ora et labora
| prometheus76 wrote:
| One other thing to note: permission to be a hermit is only
| granted to monks after many years of being part of the
| community of monks. To go off alone as a monk is very
| spiritually perilous for the first few years. It takes a long
| time to gain the discernment necessary to be a hermit monk,
| and some monks are never given that permission by their
| spiritual father.
| KWxIUElW8Xt0tD9 wrote:
| A Benedictine once put it more or less this way to me:
| community life causes the monks to round off each other's
| sharp edges over time. A solitary life is generally not
| good for people.
|
| Check out "Into Great Silence" for a film about life in the
| Grand Chartreuse, the motherhouse of the Carthusian order.
| I recall reading some years ago that it is one of the few
| (only?) orders in the Catholic Church that has never needed
| reform. Carthusians only talk to each other once a week I
| believe -- interesting monastic order.
|
| There is also a relevant classic work on the Jesus Prayer
| so used by the East: The Way of a Pilgrim. It's about a man
| who is determined to find out how to pray without ceasing.
| He becomes a solitary mystic is how I would describe it.
| armenarmen wrote:
| Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgNj2Sf_mgo
| asymmetric wrote:
| Do you have more sources about this? I find it quite
| interesting
| prometheus76 wrote:
| Here's a brief article about being a hermit from an
| Orthodox Christian perspective:
| https://orthodoxwiki.org/Hermit
|
| The first half of this book is a recollection of life as
| a monk on Mt Athos (the second half is a collection of
| the monk's teachings as an elder): Wounded by Love: The
| Life and Wisdom of Saint Porphyrios.
|
| Another good book is The Gurus, The Young Man, and Elder
| Paisios by Dionysios Farasiotis. This one has a lot more
| detail about life on Mt Athos. Also, it's important to
| note that Elder Paisios has been venerated and is now
| Saint Paisios.
| pcmaffey wrote:
| Your regular reminder that Anathem is a fantastic book. It
| explores different (non-religous) ideas of monastic life, and
| also features time-keeping outside regular society's sense of
| time...
| Ericson2314 wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerxes_Canal is pretty neat too
| cblconfederate wrote:
| Talk about holding a gripe:
|
| > The peninsula was raided by Catalan mercenaries in the 14th
| century in the so-called Catalan vengeance due to which the entry
| of people of Catalan origin was prohibited until 2005.
|
| It seems Catalans are old troublemakers
| nikolay wrote:
| I've been there once with my son for 4 days, had only 2 hours of
| sleep a day, no coffee, and didn't feel tired at all. You really
| feel you're on a different planet there!
| Christopgr wrote:
| Well, the company I work for builds the hotel system for two of
| the biggest monasteries! (It's a super outdated .NET Framework +
| webforms website for which, over the years, they have requested
| micro-changes to the fullest extent so it's really made to
| measure now, I am pretty sure it will never be upgraded)
|
| The two monks I have spoken with are real sweethearts, but they
| sound really bored and idle to me. They do love speaking with my
| female coworker though which is, eh, kinda funny. :p
| lukebuehler wrote:
| So interesting! I have been to the the mountain a few times,
| and once I get to know the life of a specific monastery better,
| I'm always surprised that there is quite bit of technology,
| especially computers. I think many monks have laptops now too.
| I'm sure some are lurking here on HN.
| truthwhisperer wrote:
| No verbal fights no Gucci and dior. Seems like a nice place to
| rest out a few days
| raptorraver wrote:
| I had a two week pilgrimage to Mt Athos on Summer 2019. It was
| literally a trip to another world. We wondered around the
| peninsula and visited few monasteries and met wonderful people
| living there. Happy to see this on HN. If anyone has any
| questions I'm more than happy to answer those.
|
| Btw, there's a great documentary about Mt. Athos that I think
| really expresses the ehtos of the place:
| https://youtu.be/U5pwfLRI-R8
| kippster wrote:
| How feasible would it be to do a pilgrimage there without
| knowing Greek?
| raptorraver wrote:
| I was traveling with a guide who knew Greek and had visited
| Mt. Athos at least tens of times. It was very valuable as he
| knew monks from different monasteries and arranged visas and
| accommodations. But during my trip I also met few travellers
| who had arranged everything themselves and didn't speak any
| Greek. You can stay at a monastery one night without a
| charge, meals included but I think it's suggested that you
| book it in advance because some monasteries have limited
| capacity for pilgrims.
| _sunshine_ wrote:
| You can get by with English, but you won't understand the
| service (which is in the monastery's main language, e.g.
| Greek/Russian/etc).
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| After traveling the world a bunch, I've learned that you can
| travel almost anywhere in the world and not know the language
| at all, and still get along fine. If you make a genuine
| effort to be a kind respectful guest/traveler, people all
| over the world will go out of their way to help you. All the
| core needs can be expressed universally by humans. A little
| money and small gifts of course helps to repay kindnesses.
| sliq wrote:
| The concept IS NOT to exclude women, the idea was to move to the
| most distant place possible, and to live a life far away from
| society, love, sex, etc. - something everybody should respect.
| These people living there dont want to harm anybody, and there's
| no reason to "go there an visit them" or to do any bizarre
| "feminist" actions (which happen quite often there).
|
| Intention matters.
|
| [repost as my comment was deleted by "woke" mod]
| PanosJee wrote:
| Medieval times are still here
| daneel_w wrote:
| How on earth is this particular case a problem?! It's VOLUNTARY
| MALE CELIBACY AND ISOLATIONISM, not some exclusive cream of the
| crop millionaire gentlemen's club.
| fithisux wrote:
| So true if you look at the western societies these days.
| anonu wrote:
| There's a good 60 Minutes segment on this from a few years back:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mXl8C4-M_4
|
| I also believe you have to follow the Greek Orthodox religion to
| be able to visit - they might make some rare exceptions. (might
| be wrong)
| throwaway_se099 wrote:
| > I also believe you have to follow the Greek Orthodox religion
| to be able to visit - they might make some rare exceptions.
|
| You need a permit (effectively, a visa) to enter the peninsula,
| and there is a daily quota. About a tenth of available permits
| can be issued to non-Orthodox visitors. They don't single out
| the Greek church from other Orthodox churches (AFAIK).
|
| [I researched the entry requirements a couple of years ago out
| of curiosity, but never tried to actually visit. Something may
| have changed in the meantime, but somehow I doubt it :)]
| srcreigh wrote:
| Greek Orthodox religion is somewhat of a misnomer. There are
| other Eastern Orthodox churches which are in communion with the
| church in Greece. The religion is Eastern Orthodox, Greek is a
| language/hierarchy within orthodoxy.
|
| Also, I'm reading a book about Mt Athos now, it was mentioned
| that a tourist was on the island. That must have taken place
| ~100 years ago, mind you.
| elorant wrote:
| No, that's not correct. People from other religions are
| allowed. It's just that there's a daily limit to the amount of
| people who can enter the region and the analogy is like 10:1
| orthodox/non-orthodox. I think it's like 120 people in total,
| or something like that.
| JKolios wrote:
| I personally know a Catholic who had no trouble getting a
| permit to visit, so I don't think that's true.
| [deleted]
| belorn wrote:
| In gender segregated monasteries, how common was there of rules
| against inviting members of the opposite sex? As I understand it,
| there existed many different enclosed religious orders, both for
| men and women, and most Christian orders seems from a glance to
| be exclusive.
|
| Orphans who grow up in such places must have gotten some very
| strange perspective about the world.
| prometheus76 wrote:
| You're right that most monastic orders are either for women or
| for men exclusively, but there were some monasteries in Britain
| that were for both genders in one community, and were led by
| female abesses, which was unusual. I'm not near my home
| library, so I can't get you a reference, but it definitely
| existed, but was definitely out of the ordinary.
| eatonphil wrote:
| The time zone issues sound fun:
|
| > A visit to Mount Athos also involves literal time travel. The
| monasteries there still go by Byzantine time, in which the day
| begins at sunset, not midnight, so the time zone changes
| literally every day. Visitors may have to set their watches back
| by as much as seven hours as they cross the border. And don't
| forget to change the date as well. Mount Athos never adopted the
| new-fangled 16th-century Gregorian calendar; they still use the
| Julian calendar of the Roman Empire, which lags 13 days behind.
| It's almost two weeks ago there!
| runjake wrote:
| Trivia: We used Julian calendar dating on one of our
| maintenance systems in the US military. Everyone had to learn
| this dating, and yes it was quite difficult. I asked and never
| got a good answer on why it was done this way ("Because it's
| always been this way.")
|
| It's been so long ago, I don't remember too many details, but
| someone else may have a better memory and pipe up.
|
| More info:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar
| BucketsMcG wrote:
| This is more or less true in Ethiopia too. The length of the
| day doesn't vary much there, but by convention the clock is
| offset by six hours, which makes for great fun when you arrange
| to meet somebody and have to establish whether or not you mean
| "Ethiopian time". Noon to us is six o'clock to them.
|
| They're also on the Julian calendar, giving rise to their old
| tourism slogan "13 months of sunshine".
| Grustaf wrote:
| A big part of the orthodox church (mostly on the slavic side)
| also uses the old calendar. That's why Russians "celebrate
| Christmas in January".
| rwmj wrote:
| And no entry in the timezone database :-(
| https://github.com/eggert/tz/search?q=athos But then if they
| have no computers, maybe that doesn't matter.
| srcreigh wrote:
| There's at least one computer on Mt Athos.
|
| I've heard a first hand story about a monk there who takes
| nice photos of animals. He just goes for walks and says, for
| example, "Snake, come here let me take your photo!" So the
| snake swims across the lake for a good close up.
|
| You can get lots of great photos that way.
| ChainOfFools wrote:
| I know for certain that, from 1997 onward, there was at
| least one Amiga 2000 on Athos (specifically, in Vatopedi)
| because it used to be mine.
|
| How long it stayed there, or whether (given that it was
| originly a N.American, thus 60hz/NTSC edition, though
| perhaps it could detect and switch to PAL operation) it was
| ever even plugged in, I never found out.
|
| I'm not even sure the monk who I gave the system to
| (staying in the US for study) had any particular plan for
| it, though he did know his way around the machine just well
| enough to run tetris and wordperfect.
| flatiron wrote:
| no women and no computers. do they have a sign up list?
| elorant wrote:
| They have computers. Some monasteries are modernized and they
| use computers to digitize old documents and books, or for
| daily works.
| colejohnson66 wrote:
| The constant "time zone" changes might throw a wrench into
| calculating the offsets. How far in advance can we calculate
| sunrise/sunset times?
| Arubis wrote:
| Depends on what you mean by sunrise/sunset. "The relative
| position of the sun's edge drops below/rises above the
| tangent of the average surface at sea level" is pretty easy
| to calculate many years out; the complications are
| deviations in Earth's orbit. "I can/can't see the sun
| anymore" depends on local weather, good luck.
| registeredcorn wrote:
| > "I can/can't see the sun anymore" depends on local
| weather
|
| For anyone wanting to know a bit more about why this is,
| here's some additional details:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sj868IzNrk
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_refraction
|
| Technically, one might also argue something weird like,
| "If I can see sunlight, it's still daytime" in which case
| a different phenomina would come into play:
|
| https://www.atoptics.co.uk/highsky/zod1.htm
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiacal_light
|
| What this all comes down to is, roughly speaking, even
| after the sun has _technically_ set, there 's still a bit
| of leeway before we no longer see the sun/sunlight due
| additional factors.
| at_a_remove wrote:
| I am frustrated in the faintness of memory, but I dimly
| recollect an area which, for about two years, altered time
| every day so that noon was when the sun was directly over
| head. Something Royal Time, or something Solar Time.
|
| There are some weird time zones out there.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| Infinite, there is a mathematical formula:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_equation
| kgeist wrote:
| >Mount Athos never adopted the new-fangled 16th-century
| Gregorian calendar; they still use the Julian calendar of the
| Roman Empire, which lags 13 days behind
|
| Russian Orthodox Church also still follows the Julian calendar.
| Majority of Orthodox countries switched to Gregorian only in
| the 20th century.
| tut-urut-utut wrote:
| Majority of Orthodox Churches didn't switch to Gregorian
| calendar, some of them did, although some only partially.
| necovek wrote:
| It sounds irrelevant instead, and whoever wrote the article, is
| obviously being a bit too playful with words.
|
| Of course it's not "two weeks ago there", it's just that the
| date is different: it's as if you tried to use a different
| calendar system altogether -- it's fine, you just need to
| convert back and forth. FWIW, a bunch of churches (Russian,
| Serbian, Romanian Orthodox churches) still respect the Julian
| calendar too, and other than Christmas falling on January 7th
| in the Gregorian calendar (and Easter calculations using
| different start points), none of it is particularly notable.
| Gregorian calendar is not more "correct," it's just better
| aligned with astronomical events.
|
| Astronomers also take middle of the day as the start of the day
| (look up Julian Days), because noon (Sun at the apex) is what
| we can actually observe and measure, so that's not something
| outrageous either.
|
| Basically, it's "scandalous" type of reporting on different
| conventions which obviously have no practical matter.
| joelmichael wrote:
| Being better aligned with astronomical events makes it more
| correct. The purpose of the calendar is to map the year, the
| orbit of the Earth around the Sun. The drift in the Julian
| calendar was not intended. It is a flaw.
| necovek wrote:
| What about the drift in the Gregorian calendar? Solar day
| and tropical year do not have a least common multiple.
|
| Earth's rotation is -- arguably -- better measured against
| the stars, so a sidereal day is more "correct", yet it
| would not map to our daily routine at all.
|
| So I believe the question is not what is more "correct"
| (we've long established that we are dealing with
| approximations at best, Julian calendar included: it
| already had leap years), but what is more useful? And
| that's what has driven adoption of the Gregorian calendar
| in most of the world, but I am fine if somewhere it's more
| useful not to have to worry about did some days just
| disappear at some point in the past.
| zajio1am wrote:
| I would say that the purpose of the calendar is tracking
| time/days in general. Astronomical events are just used as
| a tool to do that. Earlier calendars were lunar-based
| instead of solar-based, as keeping synchronized with moon
| is easier.
| dangerbird2 wrote:
| The solar cycle is extremely important for premodern
| agricultural societies, since it allows predicting
| growing and harvesting seasons. If you're going by the
| Julian calendar and the Autumn equinox is falling on
| September 10, there's probably going to be confusion as
| to when the harvest should occur. In the case of the
| Gregorian Calendar, Catholic countries rely on the Spring
| Equinox to schedule Easter, and when it started occurring
| well before March 21, this made it increasingly difficult
| to synchronize the religious and secular calendars.
| necovek wrote:
| While it's somewhat true, most of the people in premodern
| agricultural societies couldn't read (especially those
| concerned with when the harvest should happen), and
| probably couldn't care less about _dates_ in the
| calendar. Even today, weather and actual crop lifecycle
| plays a larger role in agriculture than particular dates.
|
| Even if people were tracking dates, adjusting for a
| couple of days every 200 years wouldn't be that hard:
| nobody would remember the good old times when we did the
| harvest on September 22nd in 1234, and now we do them on
| September 20th in 1434.
|
| Finally, matching up with astronomical events would
| sometimes put sidereal year (and day) at the forefront: a
| day that's ~4 minutes shorter than the solar day making
| the tropical year Gregorian calendar is based on. Things
| get murky quite quickly once you start going down that
| path of what "correct" really is.
|
| Note that in the Gregorian calendar, Spring equinox in
| 2021 and 2022 fell or falls on March 20th. It's only
| pretty good when averaged out over a 400-year cycle.
|
| Basically, all of these calendar systems are attempts to
| "square the circle": find something resembling the least
| common multiple of non-integer values (solar day length
| and tropical year length), and then try to mix in a bunch
| of events observed in a different coordinate system (to
| overly simplify it, all the night stuff is "sidereal").
|
| So we get back to what is really "useful"?
|
| If you don't care about knowing how many days ago, or on
| what date in the proleptic calendar of your choice
| something happened in the past just from the date
| inscribed on it (eg. imagine a letter dated January 5th,
| 1605), you would certainly be fine with just dropping
| 10-13 days somewhere along the way. I can, however,
| understand when someone thinks it's easier to be off from
| astronomical events for a few weeks to avoid all that
| administrative trouble, for instance. However, the
| biggest practical problem today would be that everyone
| else has written those 10-13 days off, so it's probably
| easiest to switch too, especially in the global world
| we've got today.
|
| But there is nothing intrinsically better in the
| Gregorian calendar that makes it win on all counts. It's
| just another agreed-upon approximation.
| msla wrote:
| And here we have the root of the disconnect between wall-
| clock time and stopwatch time.
|
| In short: How long it takes to cook an egg doesn't change
| because someone inserted a leap second.
|
| Of course, when people try to do the obvious thing, and
| measure time durations using a wall clock, that's when the
| fun begins. In that world, "a day from now" is _not_ a
| consistent number of seconds in the future, due to the
| aforementioned leap seconds, daylight savings time, and,
| potentially, time zone shifts if the person doing the
| measuring is traveling, or is (or, perhaps, was) in a
| particularly "interesting" jurisdiction.
| input_sh wrote:
| It's also why Russia's October Revolution of 1917 happened on
| November 7th. The state officially switched a year later, and
| November 7th = October 25th in the Old Style calendar.
| Wonderfully confusing.
| tut-urut-utut wrote:
| While we are at curiosities, I'd like explanation (please
| without googling) as to why Octoberfest in Munich, Germany
| always begins in September?
| mschuster91 wrote:
| As someone born and raised in Munich, I'll answer that
| question without Googling ;)
|
| The Oktoberfest is named for the marriage of Crown Prince
| Ludwig and Princess Therese in October 1810 and happened
| in October, until in 1872 it was decided to move the
| begin a couple weeks earlier, because in Munich the
| October weather is often very cold and rain-plagued.
| agurk wrote:
| Also without googling - but I've only lived in Munich not
| born there :)
|
| Historically the event had a focus on horse racing (and
| did have a race until 1960). I've heard one of the
| reasons to move it back was also that the meadows were
| better for racing in when dry and more likely to be so in
| September.
| [deleted]
| SllX wrote:
| It's a travel mag, not an investigative report. Playing with
| words and making bad jokes is like 90% of what they do and
| that's just fine.
| rileyphone wrote:
| It's also Ken Jennings, so it checks out with his
| personality.
| necovek wrote:
| As long as you don't take it seriously like the GP did, I
| agree that's fine.
|
| Unfortunately, people do take it seriously, so it's also
| fine to point it out for what it is.
| [deleted]
| unyttigfjelltol wrote:
| When they tap the chestnut at 3:30am for prayer, is that a
| bedtime event (their time) or a daybreak event (standard
| timekeeping)?
| [deleted]
| elorant wrote:
| The former. 3:30 am is like 8:30 pm. Local hour is about six
| hours behind regional.
| urtrs wrote:
| It is a daybreak event.
| JimWestergren wrote:
| Wonder if they will get some kind of bonus points in heaven for
| the streak of daily prayers for more than a thousand years
| uninterrupted. Don't lose the streak! ;)
| dta5003 wrote:
| Not just that - monastics practice 'prayer without ceasing',
| hesychasm.
|
| There's a great book "The Way of the Pilgrim" that explores a
| man's journey to discover what 'prayer without ceasing' means
| and how it could be possible.
|
| There's also a monastery that was called 'the unsleeping ones'
| where they divided the hours of the day into shifts and had
| monastics in prayers throughout the day and night continuously.
| prometheus76 wrote:
| It's also traditional to hold vigil for an Orthodox Christian
| who has died for the first three days after their death,
| where someone is reading aloud the Psalms in the same room as
| their body the entire time.
| nabla9 wrote:
| During the cold war KGB agents used Mount Athos as a route into
| the west. Orthodox monks would get visa and eventually
| citizenship in Greece when they moved to live in Mount Athos.
| Russian Orthodox church was controlled by the KGB and the Soviet
| State, so it was easy for them to send spies as bearded monks who
| would leave after getting citizenship.
| Ericson2314 wrote:
| With things like this, I always wonder how it was under the
| Byzantines. Probably not so bad, but probably not flying that
| flag either.
| everydaybro wrote:
| why. just why live in the same place for ever not knowing
| anything over the walls
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| The peninsula was on the invasion route of Xerxes I, who spent
| three years excavating the Xerxes Canal across the isthmus to
| allow the passage of his invasion fleet in 483 BC. After the
| death of Alexander the Great, the architect Dinocrates
| (Deinokrates) proposed carving the entire mountain into a statue
| of Alexander.
| unfocused wrote:
| Interesting timing of this post. A priest from Hamatoura
| Monastery in Lebanon (https://lebanonuntravelled.com/hamatoura-
| monastery-kousba/), just died it was announced he is to be buried
| at Mount Athos.
|
| Hamatoura appears to be of similar style of build, high up on a
| cliff....or rather in a cliff!
| makeitdouble wrote:
| BTW Greece moving into the EU meant they had to get a special
| ratified status to keep blocking women access (that would be
| illegal otherwise)
|
| https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=15779940...
| stavros wrote:
| Which I'm not a fan of, but then again I'm not a fan of the
| church owning an entire peninsula.
| sliq wrote:
| Before the "woke" people come out of their holes and try to bash
| this: The concept IS NOT to exclude women, the idea was to move
| to the most distant place possible, and to live a life far away
| from society, love, sex, etc. - something everybody should
| respect. These people living there dont want to harm anybody, and
| there's no reason to "go there an visit them" or to do any
| "feminist" stunts.
|
| Intention matters.
| humanistbot wrote:
| If the concept is not to exclude women but instead to move to
| the most distant place possible, then why do they let men from
| outside visit but not women?
| [deleted]
| teddyh wrote:
| Please don't argue with people who are either not here or have
| not expressed any opinion yet. You are literally strawmanning.
| Argue with _actual people_ and their _actual opinions_ instead
| of made-up stereotypes.
| sliq wrote:
| My intention was just to clarify this right upfront, as this
| is common topic in Greece and it's dividing society, for
| absurd reasons. As this is now #1 on HackerNews, I can
| already smell why it's there. Violence against women is
| tabooed, but some monks living in the most distant mountains
| are the "symbol of the patriarchy".
| teddyh wrote:
| Who are you quoting? Are they here? No? Then _stop arguing
| with them here_.
| nspattak wrote:
| who, how or why does it matter if that was the concept or is
| just a side effect?
| sliq wrote:
| because intention defines how to judge an action. if somebody
| moves a knife into your body, then it can be a violent attack
| or a medical procedure. if you devide boys and girls into
| groups then it can be seen as sexism or a as a mindful act to
| ensure privacy and intimacy.
|
| it's the same here. these men just want to be alone.
| everydaybro wrote:
| I still feel it's stupid to get far away from society
| Slippery_John wrote:
| There's a great book by Lois McMaster Bujold called Ethan of
| Athos that somewhat explores this idea expanded to encompass an
| entire planet. Technically it's part of a series, but it's
| standalone. It follows an obstetrician from the planet that has
| to leave to acquire ovarian tissue cultures they need to produce
| more children.
| new_guy wrote:
| > "Do all woman have haloes?" he wanted to know.
|
| What we consider attractive (boobs, ass etc) comes from society.
| There are tribes where women go around naked with no issue. Back
| in the Victorian era they used to go ga-ga over ankles.
|
| So it'd be interesting exposing* a man like that, whose
| essentially a blank slate, to a nude woman and seeing what he
| finds attractive.
|
| *no pun intended!
| xdennis wrote:
| > What we consider attractive (boobs, ass etc) comes from
| society.
|
| I seriously doubt it. The main things that men find attractive
| are genetically programmed.
|
| It's true that secondary things come from society (ankles as
| you say, beauty marks, long necks (hence the need for neck
| rings), etc), but that doesn't mean that a blank slate man
| would find long necks and breasts equally attractive.
| ehnto wrote:
| Not too different in reason, but until 1868 some female disciples
| of a particular religion were banned from climbing Mt Fuji passed
| a certain point:
| https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/a-religious-cult-belie...
|
| > Not everyone could revel in wonders of Mount Fuji's lava caves.
| Until 1868, women were banned from climbing higher than the
| middle zone of the mountain, ascetics worrying that they would
| distract men from their religious duties and other traditional
| taboos.
| tut-urut-utut wrote:
| I remember an interesting story from history books. During the
| 14th century plague, Serbian emperor and empress asked for a safe
| place at Athos peninsula. They were granted access, but the
| empress needed to be carried away all the time, and carpets needs
| to be put before her whenever she goes anywhere. It worked out
| because the rule was not that women are not allowed there, but
| because "women may not put step on the holy ground of Athos
| peninsula".
| NKosmatos wrote:
| One of the bad aspects of religions are such restrictions that
| have no base whatsoever. If we omit this anachronism, Agion Oros,
| as it's commonly called in Greece, is a nice place to visit
| (Christian men only) with an unspoiled environment and peaceful
| way of living. It's common for many Greeks to visit at least once
| this special place (something like Hajj/Hadji), but in recent
| times this has been declining. There are 20 monasteries [0], not
| all of them Greek and it's true that there are many daily things
| performed different than our ways.
|
| [0] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Karta_Athos.PNG
| throwawaygal7 wrote:
| The monks have no reason that they forbid women? Just cause?
| INTERESTING.
| dang wrote:
| If you keep posting flamewar comments we will have to ban
| this account. We've already had to ask you about this.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| Grustaf wrote:
| What are these "restrictions that have no base whatsoever"? Are
| you referring to "Christian men only"? Surely you can see the
| basis of a male monastery complex only allowing male Christian
| guests?
|
| Would you be equally upset at a Buddhist convent only allowing
| Buddhist women as guests?
| cblconfederate wrote:
| > have no base whatsoever
|
| Gender segregated monasteries have existed since foreveer. Mt
| Athos is like one giant monastery in that sense. For religious
| people there is a base for gender segregation.
| bobthechef wrote:
| You're a victim of the biases and presumptions of your own
| egalitarian culture.
|
| There is a basis. Men and women are different and sexually
| complementary. One obvious reason is that the sexual tension
| and constant presence of people of the opposite sex (female
| orders exclude men also) and subsequent temptation and stirred
| concupiscence can be a distraction to the spiritual life. But
| the tendency for sex segregation occurs naturally. People tend
| to befriend people of their own sex because of an affinity of
| similarity, not complementarity. This is an important
| distinction.
| sneak wrote:
| The concept that sexual tension/activity and a spiritual life
| are at odds or mutually exclusive is itself a bias and
| presumption.
| srcreigh wrote:
| There are exceptions. During the holocaust, Mt Athos sheltered
| Jewish families including women. Meanwhile, to avoid destruction
| from Hitler during the German occupation in Greece, they wrote to
| Hitler asking for his personal protection... which was granted
|
| Also, the many female saints and especially the Theotokos (Mary)
| are prayed to often and are in an important sense present on the
| peninsula.
| jl6 wrote:
| From another article:
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36378690
|
| _" One of the traditions is that the Virgin Mary was blown off
| course when she was trying to sail to Cyprus and landed on Mount
| Athos. And she liked it so much that she prayed to her son that
| she should be given it as her own and he agreed," says Speake.
| "It's still called 'the garden of the mother of God', dedicated
| to her glory, and she alone represents her sex on Mount Athos."_
|
| _This applies to both humans and domestic animals, except for
| cats._
|
| _" There are a lot of cats around and it's probably a quite a
| good thing that there are because they are good mousers. They
| turn a blind eye, as it were, to the fact that there are female
| cats," says Speake._
|
| Like so many rules, it seems to be enforced strictly, except when
| inconvenient.
| riffraff wrote:
| I suppose it's not as much to do with convenience as it does
| with sex/celibacy.
|
| Sheep are very useful, but present more chances for certain
| behaviours that monks want to prevent.
|
| Hens are likewise allowed, AFAIK.
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| In this specific instance I see this primarily as utilitarian
| practicality rather than inconvenience avoidance.
| carapace wrote:
| > Like so many rules, it seems to be enforced strictly, except
| when...
|
| ...cats are involved. ;-)
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