[HN Gopher] Lead contamination in hunted meat
___________________________________________________________________
Lead contamination in hunted meat
Author : tomohawk
Score : 42 points
Date : 2021-12-09 20:57 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.ehn.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.ehn.org)
| progre wrote:
| Yeah, I'm not too worried about this.
|
| Even if you don't find the bullet, it's pretty easy to see the
| bullet damage when the skin is removed, and those bits gets cut
| away with large margins before curing, othervise the meat will
| start to rot there.
| nkurz wrote:
| It may not be as easy as you think to remove all lead
| contaminated meat. Here's a quote from a study published by the
| Minnesota DNR (a decidedly pro-hunting source):
|
| "The ballistic tip bullet (rapid expansion) had the highest
| fragmentation rate, with an average of 141 fragments per
| carcass and an average maximum distance of 11 inches from the
| wound channel. In one carcass, a fragment was found 14 inches
| from the exit wound.
|
| Soft point bullets (rapid expansion) left an average of 86
| fragments at an average maximum distance of 11 inches from the
| wound channel. In this research, bonded lead-core bullets
| (controlled expansion, exposed lead core) performed almost
| identically to the soft-core bullets and left an average of 82
| fragments with an average maximum distance of nine inches from
| the wound."
|
| https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/ammo/lead-short-summary....
|
| It's up to you how concerned you should be, but if you hunt
| large game with a rifle and are cutting away less than these
| distances, you are probably occasionally ingesting lead
| fragments.
| chmod600 wrote:
| The article has some good numbers, but it's hard to tell how
| significant it really is in the grand scheme of a lifestyle.
|
| Everything has some risks and you need to prioritize somewhat.
| Not that I hunt anyway.
| hkon wrote:
| Interesting. Is any part of an animal safe to eat when harvested
| with lead projectiles? Is it just the area of impact and near, or
| does it spread throughout very quickly?
| tristor wrote:
| Generally speaking, it mostly only affects the meat where lead
| projectiles hit. The most common lead projectiles for hunting
| though are shotgun pellets in shells, which have a sizeable
| spread and often used for small targets like waterfowl and
| rodents. So a small target and a sizeable spread of pellets
| means that while only hit and splatter areas are affected, that
| could be most of the usable meat as well.
| sneak wrote:
| From TFA:
|
| > _Upon impact, a lead bullet can fragment into tiny
| microparticles, too small to see with the naked eye or sense
| when eating. A deer processor in Pennsylvania who requested
| anonymity shared his first-hand experience. "Seventy-five
| percent of the time when I find a bullet in the carcass, I only
| find the base. I know the lead is all in the meat somewhere,"
| he told EHN._
|
| > _Scientists have used X-rays to visualize and count sometimes
| hundreds of minute lead particles in hunted meat, and have
| detected high concentrations of lead in hunted carcasses using
| chemical analysis. Although the U.S. Food and Drug
| Administration does not recognize a safe limit for the amount
| of lead in meat, the European Commission set maximum levels at
| 0.1 parts per million (ppm)._
|
| > _Concentrations of lead more than 100 times this limit have
| been detected in the meat of lead-shot carcasses as far as six
| inches from the entry wound._
| kokanator wrote:
| >Concentrations of lead more than 100 times this limit have
| been detected in the meat of lead-shot carcasses as far as
| six inches from the entry wound.
|
| In which direction? Was there any indication of damage? Did
| they only measure from the round bullet entry?
|
| The statement provides no additional details. The entry wound
| is often small, about the size of the projectile. While the
| damage after entry is greater and often identifiable. It is
| important to follow the projectiles through the game.
| bell-cot wrote:
| What a sad culture-wars-meet-public-health mess.
|
| Idea - a non-profit, lead by a few high-profile celebrity
| hunters, which pays the cost of some "free upgrade to lead-free
| ammo" coupons that are offered (free on request) with hunting
| licenses. And a "safely feed your family" brochure goes out with
| every license, period.
| nkurz wrote:
| It's a good idea, and there are a few programs that provide
| free non-toxic ammunition to hunters in some areas. Here's one:
| https://www.ventanaws.org/ammunition.html
| killingtime74 wrote:
| Apparently lead free ammunition is available. I don't know why
| you'd be so lazy not to buy it if you're actually going to eat
| the meat
| chroem- wrote:
| It's not so straightforward. While there are solid copper
| projectiles available in some jurisdictions, most lead-free
| projectiles have been decried by gun control activists as "cop
| killer bullets". Lead is extremely soft, and thus uniquely bad
| at penetrating body armor. Projectile composition is heavily
| regulated in the US, ironically in favor of the continued use
| of lead projectiles.
| jeffbee wrote:
| I mean, there are solid-copper hollow-tip bullets on the
| shelf at the Bass Pro Shop and I live in California. This
| persecution story seems like a 2A fundamentalist fantasy.
| tristor wrote:
| Solid copper doesn't behave the same way ballistically to
| lead, as it is significantly less dense. You don't seem to
| actually understand how firearms work and your perspective
| is based entirely on what happens in California, a
| notoriously unfriendly state to anyone who doesn't actively
| hate guns.
| hackernews666 wrote:
| In NJ for example it is a felony to posses to hollow points
| (NJSA 2C:39-3(f)) so you will likely face an additional
| felony if you are ever charged on another gun crime.
|
| The projectile of a piece of ammunition is also used by the
| feds as an excuse to ban importation if they deem it not
| suitable for sporting purposes.
| jeffbee wrote:
| That NJ law is for handgun ammo. Do you hunt a lot of
| game with a handgun? I mean I know people do it, I've
| just never personally met one.
| silisili wrote:
| This isn't just a case of laziness. Most lead free I've come
| across is Barnes straight copper stuff. It's not heavy enough,
| and drastically changes the way it shoots and also how it acts
| on impact.
|
| There's not a lot that can be done to fix this today, because
| cartridges were designed with lead projectiles, and guns
| designed around the cartridges. To get a heavier bullet, it
| would need to be a substantially bigger(longer) bullet,
| therefore not working in any gun.
|
| A reasonable proposition is for a new cartridge to be designed
| around an all copper(or steel, whatever) bullet. It would take
| a lot of time to get adoption, though, unless the military uses
| it.
| chroem- wrote:
| > A reasonable proposition is for a new cartridge to be
| designed around an all copper(or steel, whatever) bullet. It
| would take a lot of time to get adoption, though, unless the
| military uses it.
|
| The US military has already moved to steel core, lead free
| projectiles over a decade ago, specifically because of safety
| concerns about lead contamination. However, steel core
| ammunition is explicitly illegal in the US, because it's
| considered "armor piercing".
| tristor wrote:
| > However, steel core ammunition is explicitly illegal in
| the US, because it's considered "armor piercing".
|
| That's... not really how that works. The US has tens of
| thousands of laws related to guns, and they intersect in
| different ways in different jurisdictions. Federally,
| though, at any rate, AP ammunition is only illegal for
| /handguns/. For rifles, there is no such legal restriction
| and steel core rifle rounds are commonplace. Most hunting
| is done with shotguns and rifles, you can easily find steel
| pellet shotgun shells.
|
| The bigger issues is 1) Increased costs 2) Different
| ballistic performance.
| chroem- wrote:
| Again, it's not that straightforward. The ATF has ruled
| that most common rifle rounds such as 5.56, 7.62 NATO,
| and 7.62x39 are actually considered pistol rounds, and
| thus subject to AP regulations, because someone somewhere
| has detached the stock from their rifle, thus converting
| it to a "pistol".
| antishatter wrote:
| The price is usually much higher, hell they sit next to each
| other on the shelf so "lazy" isn't a part of it in 99% of
| cases.
| kokanator wrote:
| It is interesting how many obviously non-hunter and/or non-
| shooters are weighing in here.
|
| Having hunted nearly 40 years for all types of game and in a
| large number of different settings I wanted to provide a few
| observations from experience to help the conversation:
|
| - Lead tends superior ballistically to alternatives
|
| - Lead induces less damage to the firearm
|
| - To use non-lead alternatives you typically either have increase
| the size of the projectile( (s) in the case of shotgun shot )
| and/or increase the powder charge. This typically means an
| individual will need to purchase different firearms. For
| instance, to get close to the ballistic performance of lead shot
| in a 12 ga shotgun you will need a 3.5 inch shot shells. The vast
| majority of shotguns accept 2.75 or 3 inch shells.
|
| - Steel shot in shotguns is more likely to wound game by creating
| bleed tunnels causing the animal/bird to bleed out much later and
| not be retrievable. Lead creates more catastrophic immediately
| fatal wounds.
|
| - When I took hunters education we were taught about lead and how
| to prepare game to minimize the risk of exposure. When my
| children took hunters education 15 years ago they were provided
| the same education. Not to mention the education they received
| from me.
|
| - Damaged meat can be identified and cut away. I was taught to
| cut at least 3 inches outside of the wound margin. From the xrays
| I have seen this seems appropriate. This doesn't just include the
| entry wound but also other areas of impacted meat. Process your
| own meat and take pride in the result.
|
| - Copper bullets do not expand as quickly and as effectively as
| lead bullets leading to more wounded game.
| hackernews666 wrote:
| Another thing to consider is penetration of the projectile for
| safety considerations. There are already hunting zones where
| rifle is not allowed for safety considerations, if you were
| forced to use steel slugs in a shotgun it would also reduce
| safe hunting opportunities.
| kokanator wrote:
| I grew up in one of these game units. It was a shotgun only
| unit. Unfortunately, a steel slug in a shotgun would
| permanently damage the shotgun because steel does not give
| the way lead does. A shotgun has a choke which reduces the
| barrel diameter toward the end of the barrel. There are
| sophisticated ways around this problem such a sabot loads but
| this begins to make the shotgun perform more like a rifle
| defeating the entire purpose.
| pengaru wrote:
| Sounds like another vote for using a bow and arrow...
| hackernews666 wrote:
| Bow and arrow is more environmentally friendly but is typically
| deemed inhumane/abuse by animal welfare activists.
| opwieurposiu wrote:
| Bow is nice because it does not make noise when you practice
| and you don't have to worry about the kids getting into it
| since there is no way they can pull it back.
|
| On the other hand it takes a lot more practice then a rifle and
| you have to get much much closer to whatever you are hunting.
|
| I use a bow with the kids but we rarely catch anything. If you
| really need the meat better use a gun.
| orwin wrote:
| My biological grandfather live in deep West Virginia. They do
| have rifles (shotguns rather i think) but they "hunt" with
| traps. There is a lot of deer there, and from what i heard
| their group were never great hunters, way better riders than
| hunters at least, and it was always easier for them to kill a
| trapped deer than shoot at it (and also the risk of shooting
| on someone you know, it was a small back-to-lander
| community). Nowadays they don't need the meat anymore (and
| they don't ride horses either, old age catching up), but they
| still use traps sometime.
|
| I think the rationnal was also to be a lot less subject to
| snake attacks. You had to got hunt with a dog to avoid those,
| and even then it wasn't foolproof. And there was no road
| access until the late 90s, making moving without horses (who
| didn't fare that well with dogs) inconvenient at best.
| gnabgib wrote:
| I think the link should be: https://www.ehn.org/lead-ammunition-
| in-meat-2645108170.html (submitted link has accidentally captured
| some sort of custom fragment-deep-link-in-the-url implementation)
| dang wrote:
| Ok, we've changed to that from https://www.ehn.org/lead-
| ammunition-in-meat-2645108170/a-lac.... Thanks!
| avalys wrote:
| Lead contamination is a bit of a crusade of mine. I'm always
| frustrated when the topic comes up. People will object to any
| proposed improvement by saying "I've been doing <XYZ> for 40
| years and it hasn't killed me yet!"
|
| Yeah, it hasn't killed you, but how do you know you're not 10 IQ
| points dumber than you could have been?
| robobob5000 wrote:
| what is the proposed improvement in this case though?
|
| There is something weird about this article. It feels like a
| paid for hit piece from the anti-gun crowd rather than an
| organic article about lead issues.
| PeterisP wrote:
| As the article mentions, the simple solution is to use non-
| lead ammo; which is available but more expensive than lead.
|
| Also suggestions ".. include selecting shotguns instead of
| high-powered rifles, and avoiding acidic cooking ingredients,
| since acids can dissolve even more of the lead into the food.
|
| Additional advice for hunters who use lead ammunition is to
| avoid shooting the deer in regions of the body with heavy
| bones, such as shoulders and hips, where the resulting impact
| scatters more lead into the meat."
| pineconewarrior wrote:
| Steel shot. Seems pretty straightforward as a solution. The
| performance is not quite as good and it's more expensive, I
| assume.
| thrower123 wrote:
| Steel shot is terrible. I don't know exactly why, but I
| have seen geese have the feathers blown off of them, you
| can see them shiver in the sky as they get pelted, and the
| will wobble and shrug it off. Usually to get just far
| enough away that they die in a place where they are
| irretrievable.
|
| Lead would stagger them enough that they'd go right down.
| The newer bismuth and tungsten rounds are almost as good,
| but at something like $5/round, it's absurd.
| pineconewarrior wrote:
| Yes indeed. You have to reduce distance quite a bit to
| get the same stopping power, due to the difference in
| sectional density. Furthermore, lead ammunition deforms
| as it penetrates - steel does not - which leads to less
| internal damage and a higher rate of target survival.
| EquallyJust wrote:
| Seems like there's plenty of non-lead bullet options though
| they're a bit more expensive.
|
| 1. http://www.huntingwithnonlead.org/bullet_types.html
|
| 2. https://www.getzone.com/hunting-ammo-9-of-the-best-non-
| lead-...
| [deleted]
| SavantIdiot wrote:
| Ugh, as a kid I grew up fishing shot out of cooked rabbit and
| pheasant and stacking it up on the side of my plate; or
| accidentally spitting it out because if you weren't careful
| you'd crack a tooth. My grandfather goes instantly from 0 to 60
| with rage if anyone tries to tell him anything about his
| hunting (we had hide his ammo when he started getting
| befuddled). He'll never change. Hopefully younger hunters are
| aware of just because we did XYZ and it was bad for you means
| you don't have to do it anymore.
| Kluny wrote:
| > My grandfather goes instantly from 0 to 60 with rage
|
| Classic symptom of lead poisoning, ironically.
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| Had a guy blow up when I indicated I would prefer Teflon
| tape for sealing pipe threads over his favorite Master's
| metallic pipe dope. Here's the MSDS:
|
| https://www.era-
| env.com/ERAWcfService/getmsdscontent.svc/?ke...
|
| It's basically powdered lead in an alcohol carrier that you
| wipe on your threads with a brush.
|
| At first I thought he was just a grumpy old plumber tired
| of liberal environmentalist kids with their newfangled
| safety regulations, but perhaps the lifetime of working
| with leaded solders and leaded thread sealant has affected
| him in some way...
| literallyaduck wrote:
| This is the insidious thing about lead, those consumers who
| have been exposed now may be unequipped to rationally evaluate
| the problem, the risk, the severity and alternatives because of
| their diminished mental state.
|
| Victims of lead based mental illness have the same vote weight
| that you do.
| mitchbob wrote:
| Are there alternatives to lead for bullets and shotgun shells?
| If so, it would great to mandate them and keep all that lead
| out of the environment. We got rid of lead in most fuels;
| ammunition could be next.
| tristor wrote:
| Yes, there are alternatives, primarily steel, but it's quite
| a bit more expensive. For my purposes, I only ever hunt with
| steel pellet shells, I would never use lead.
| kache_ wrote:
| Hunting is so expensive anyways. What's a few more bucks?
| Pun not intended
| oceanplexian wrote:
| There are some practical problems:
|
| 1) Steel core ammunition is illegal for use in handguns
| since its armor piercing. Banning lead without relaxing
| rules on steel would create legal problems. And in some
| states steel core is illegal in all types of firearms.
|
| 2) Steel is more likely to spark if it hits a rock, for
| this reason it's banned in ranges out west and National
| Forest/BLM areas due to the risk of forest fire
|
| 3) Ammunition is out of stock everywhere and it would
| would definitely cause shortages and price people out of
| the market. There are millions of people who need
| ammunition not only for hunting but pest control,
| wilderness self-defense, and so on.
|
| 4) Someone more knowledgeable than me may argue this but
| it may not be as humane in some cases, since lead is
| designed to tumble and fracture killing the animal
| instantly while steel is more likely to go right through
| a target.
| tristor wrote:
| Most families that hunt for meat, including mine, are not
| wealthy. We are not talking about sport hunters, we are
| talking about subsistence hunting. It's still very common
| in large swathes of America. Just looking around for the
| lowest prices possible, the cost of steel shot is more
| than double the cost of lead shot for #3 shells (commonly
| used for waterfowl). For #00 shells (used for deer and
| medium game) it's more than three times as expensive.
| Ammo costs add up quick, as you need to practice with the
| same shells you hunt with.
|
| Working in tech, I can afford to buy higher quality and
| more expensive things, and the ammunition I use is no
| exception. But for many people it's not really within
| their budget. Lead is cheap, it's one of the main reason
| its used to make projectiles in the first place.
| chmod600 wrote:
| Why does hunting and practice ammo need to be the same?
| Is subsistence hunting that precise?
|
| And if you can use cheap ammo for practice, then I would
| guess the price of ammo for actual hunting wouldn't be
| very significant. A dollar extra per animal or something?
|
| I don't really know, just trying to understand.
| robobob5000 wrote:
| different ballistic trajectories. You need to zero your
| rifle with one ammo type. This may be different for
| shotguns
| chmod600 wrote:
| Isn't that for long-range? I guess so, I just didn't know
| that was a major factor for typical hunters on a budget
| (who probably have cheap scopes anyway).
| stefan_ wrote:
| Geez, wait until they see the bill for cleaning up all
| the lead in the environment from their shooting.
| thghtihadanacct wrote:
| LoL, if they are subsistence hunting they arent using a
| machine gun. There wont be lead all over as they shouldnt
| be taking more than one shot in the first place.
| [deleted]
| jabl wrote:
| > the cost of steel shot is more than double the cost of
| lead shot for #3 shells (commonly used for waterfowl).
| For #00 shells (used for deer and medium game) it's more
| than three times as expensive.
|
| That's surprising. In bulk, steel is a fraction of the
| cost of lead (usually, though at the moment the market
| seems a bit crazy). Is steel shot seen as a luxury
| product for hippies with money, or where does the
| difference come from?
| jeffbee wrote:
| Yeah but none of those things are reasons to permit
| releasing all that lead into the environment. Every bird
| that you take with lead shot poisons another generation
| of fish and their predators, which isn't really fair to
| fish and fishermen. California banned leaded ammunition
| and as far as I have heard that did not increase the rate
| of childhood malnutrition or whatever.
| tristor wrote:
| I'm not advocating that people should use leaded
| ammunition, so I'm not sure what argument you think you
| are trying to make? I'm advocating having a bit of
| empathy for people who don't make tech salaries and buy
| all their groceries at whole foods. The posted article
| looks like primarily an anti-gun hit piece, and your
| reply also reads as an uncharitable take that is placing
| a lot of blame and responsibility on individuals who, for
| the most part, are just trying to feed their families.
| jeffbee wrote:
| I don't see the hit piece aspects of the article at all.
| Perhaps you did not read it. It seems quite factual and
| even-handed.
|
| Anyway I have a feeling that you are radically over-
| estimating the size of the subsistence hunter population.
| It is a vanishingly small slice of what is already a tiny
| fraction of the American population. Last I heard only 3%
| of Americans ever hunted, and it was yet another one of
| those things that has a real strong positive correlation
| with household income.
|
| If you really want to empathize with subsistence hunters
| then your beef is with wacko preppers. I didn't even
| notice the price difference when I switched to copper
| rifle loads but after COVID-19 started the price of a box
| of rifle cartridges tripled.
| kokanator wrote:
| > Hunting is so expensive anyways. What's a few more
| bucks? Pun not intended
|
| This is not a true statement. I started hunting with a
| $115 shotgun and a $35 license which in turn provided my
| 1 deer, dozens of rabbits and countless ducks. If I were
| to take just the deer into consideration compared to lets
| say the price of pork at $2.99 / Lb. ( not to mention the
| cost of beef ) One hundred pounds of pork would cost me
| $299. The deer cost me $150 and I get to keep the gun. No
| I didn't need a truck, I walked out the door and into the
| woods. Yes I had to buy ammo but it lasted several
| seasons and I got to use the gun for the rest of my life.
|
| My junior and senior year in school hunting provided all
| the protein for my family.
|
| Of course, just likely anything else, you can make
| hunting as expensive as you would like it to be.
| djrogers wrote:
| You only use one round to harvest an animal, but that
| round can be preceded by tens or hundreds of rounds at
| the range, much of which should be with the same load and
| bullet.
|
| It's not just cost - steel and copper bullets expand
| less, so animals harvested with them can be wounded for
| longer periods before dying, which many hunters see as
| unethical.
| robobob5000 wrote:
| there are more options for shotgun shells than for bullets.
|
| For bullets you can basically do pure copper. I think
| anything else falls into a 'armor piercing' category that is
| banned. I'm not 100% clear on the laws there but I know that
| is why most bullets are still lead core (in addition to cost
| factors).
|
| lead ammo bans are a way to ban guns without banning guns
| themselves, similar to 'microstamping' and other odd
| proposals. Basically mandate something that makes it so
| costly that no one can do it
| cwbrandsma wrote:
| Steel. At least in my state, lead shot is illegal to hunt
| with, but you can use it for clay pidgins.
| Gibbon1 wrote:
| Lot of places have banned lead shot for water fowl hunting.
| California banned lead bullets for hunting. The replacements
| are steel shot and bismuth for bullets.
| hackernews666 wrote:
| It doesn't help that there is limited study about casual
| contact with lead. Most sportsman understand the risks of
| commercial levels of lead exposure but the occasional contact
| with the human body or environment is not easily quantifiable
| or understood.
| sneak wrote:
| The classically false "that which doesn't kill me makes me
| stronger."
| dhosek wrote:
| It astonishes me that it's 2021 and they're still selling toys
| with lead paint and garden hose fixtures with lead in them.
| andrewxdiamond wrote:
| Where? That's not really a problem in the US as far as I'm
| aware
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Surely you don't think each and every product from all
| those IKEA-named Chinese resellers on Amazon has been
| closely vetted for lead and other banned components?
|
| https://www.insider.com/amazon-selling-toxic-toys-lead-
| poiso...
|
| > A breaking investigation from the Wall Street Journal
| revealed that online retail giant Amazon has been selling
| thousands of products that have failed federal safety
| tests, including children's toys containing four to 411
| times the safe limit of lead.
| voisin wrote:
| Is there an at home test to determine if anything you
| have contains lead?
| andrewxdiamond wrote:
| Yes, there are a lot. Don't buy the overpriced "home"
| versions.
|
| 3M LeadCheck Swabs, Instant Lead Test, 8-Pack
| https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008BK15PU/
| tristor wrote:
| > Where? That's not really a problem in the US as far as
| I'm aware
|
| In the US. A lot of goods that originate from overseas made
| with metal contain lead in their alloys, and lead paint is
| often used for white paints in particular. A LOT of goods
| enter the US market from overseas imports containing lead,
| and there's no real establish process for testing and
| validating safety or functionality of these products prior
| to sale.
| louky wrote:
| Garden hoses are lead contaminated, at least the ones I
| avoided all said 'this product contains lead'. I'm in the
| US.
|
| Quick link -
|
| https://turfmechanic.com/garden-hoses-lead/
| orangepurple wrote:
| RV specific hoses are much more expensive and they don't
| contain lead. It's madness.
| 0xcde4c3db wrote:
| I wish. Serious lead reduction efforts only started ca. 50
| years ago, regulations were phased in irregularly across a
| huge variety of industries, applications, and jurisdictions
| over a long period of time (causing many lead-containing
| products to simply shift from one supply chain to another),
| and much of it is effectively on the honor system.
|
| https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/prevention/sources/consumer-
| pr...
|
| https://uspirg.org/news/usp/recall-toys-still-found-lead-
| pai...
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(page generated 2021-12-09 23:02 UTC)