[HN Gopher] DAO votes to join Blender Development Fund as Patron...
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DAO votes to join Blender Development Fund as Patron member
Author : madjin
Score : 90 points
Date : 2021-12-06 19:41 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.blender.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.blender.org)
| cblconfederate wrote:
| I assume this is Decentraland looking to attach itself to popular
| open source projects for publicity. It's actually good if it
| works for them, but i dont get their product. Very few people use
| it, their worlds look childish and nobody is in them. Yet somehow
| they sell their parcels for millions.
|
| In contrast, opensimulator.org is open source, self-hosted,
| decentralized, much more beautiful, has an active and happy user
| base of thousands, and it gets $0 in funding from anyone. The
| main developer doesnt even get any donations. how does that make
| sense
| zucker42 wrote:
| Blockchain mania.
| ksec wrote:
| I really need to find the time to go and learn what DAO is. But
| if anyone could do a ELI5 would be great.
| SuoDuanDao wrote:
| Decentralised autonomous organization.
|
| Picture a corporation, but instead of a board and CEO the
| shareholders vote on what to do directly. I'm sure someone more
| knowledgeable than I could come up with a better analogy.
| brighton36 wrote:
| That's the brochure description. The evidence would suggest
| that this is a run of the mill cryto ponzi.
| garrickvanburen wrote:
| That's consistent with my understanding.
|
| They seem to be functionally identical to a Board of
| Directors or how a co-operative might run.
|
| Though as I understand, with potentially a very large number
| voters in ever-changing cloaked identities (as voting right
| tokens could be continuously bought & sold).
|
| Today, in the real world - DAO's are an LLC coordinating on
| Discord, or Zoom, or other common communication tools.
|
| That DAO coordination happens fully in cyberspace is promoted
| as a unique differentiator to how businesses run today.
|
| In my experience, the key unique characteristic of DAOs are
| that you may not know who you're doing business with.
| joshmarlow wrote:
| I think that's a pretty good analogy. I'll add a few other
| details to color the picture.
|
| DAOs can also be built to support fund disbursal through a
| m-of-n multisig - ie, a certain number of members have to
| vote on a transaction.
|
| It's also possible to do things like create NFTs and setup
| recurring revenue from them to go back to the DAO which
| distributes them to their members.
|
| Side note - in WY, DAOs have some degree of legal standing
| now (IANAL): https://www.wyoleg.gov/Legislation/2021/SF0038
| ajross wrote:
| Also instead of a legal entity with the ability to petition
| the government for redress of grievances, it's just a bunch
| of data emitted by some smart contract code.
|
| This is going to turn out to be important the first time a
| DAO gets significantly scammed. Someone's going to take the
| money and run, or otherwise violate the "contract" that the
| DAO thought it was "enforcing", and... there won't be
| anything to do. There won't be any way to fix it. The smart
| contract doesn't handle the edge case of having to hire a
| lawyer on its own behalf.
|
| I mean, just to take this particular mostly-harmless
| situation as an example: that membership in the Blender
| Development Fund presumably includes some amount of official
| input into how the money gets spent. What if the DAO has
| specific desires or expectations, and Blender simply chooses
| to ignore them?
| tpxl wrote:
| > This is going to turn out to be important the first time
| a DAO gets significantly scammed
|
| Badger DAO got scammed for 120 million USD last week and I
| doubt they were the first.
| ajross wrote:
| To be clear, that attack (also the The DAO event that
| caused the ethereum fork) was a hack. It was a bug in the
| contract that got exploited. And that's a risk too.
|
| But even if a DAO does everything right, technically,
| they're still subject to the problem of having to trust
| entities in the real world (e.g. "whoever on the Blender
| foundation gave them the address to pay") to behave the
| way they promise (e.g. "actually hand them an address
| under the control of the Blender Foundation"). It's
| trivially easy in this world to just cheat.
|
| And in the real world, with real people on both sides of
| the transaction, that's addressed in the courts. And it
| works, and fraud as a proportion of our economy is quite
| small. But that protection doesn't extend to anonymous
| smart contracts.
| riidom wrote:
| What you can expect as a corporate (or any) sponsor, or
| corporate membership, as it's called, is defined here:
| https://fund.blender.org/corporate-memberships/ The two
| (short) PDF's go a bit into detail, but in a nutshell they
| can fund core projects, access meetings, and "more closely
| monitor" progress they are interested in.
| dcolkitt wrote:
| This is a misunderstanding. Many DAOs have off-chain legal
| entities attached.
|
| In American law, corporations are people. American Courts
| will give a very high leeway to respecting whatever
| corporate bylaws dictate. Including being governed by code.
|
| It's very easy to register a Delaware LLC which states that
| it's board decisions are whatever output a smart contract
| spits out.
| dbt00 wrote:
| > This is going to turn out to be important the first time
| a DAO gets significantly scammed. Someone's going to take
| the money and run, or otherwise violate the "contract" that
| the DAO thought it was "enforcing", and... there won't be
| anything to do. There won't be any way to fix it. The smart
| contract doesn't handle the edge case of having to hire a
| lawyer on its own behalf.
|
| This already happened, and they hard forked the Ethereum
| blockchain to revert the hack.
|
| https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2016/07/20/ethereum-
| executes-b...
| ranuzz wrote:
| I have spent some time learning about DAOs and this is what I
| understood. Please correct me if there is a mistake.
|
| Coined as Decentralized autonomous organization, they are
| decentralized applications whose main function is to handle
| fund disbursement. They work more or less as any other treasury
| but in a more transparent and automated way.
|
| What further separates them from the traditional treasury is
| that they are essentially a piece of code that runs on
| blockchain networks, like Ethereum, Cardano, Solana etc. It
| makes DAOs a lot different from traditional organisations and
| businesses from an economic and regulation sense.
|
| Let's take an example DAO and how it operates. There is no
| defined template of a DAO yet so I'll use this open source code
| written in solidity as an example
| https://github.com/blockchainsllc/DAO/blob/develop/DAO.sol
|
| This can be called a decentralized application or a smart
| contract. It defines an Interface which can be used to
| instantiate a DAO contract. The first few constants define the
| regulatory parameters. The most interesting part is the
| proposal array. It holds all the proposals submitted by the
| proposal creator that specifies an amount which is to be paid
| to the proposal recipient if it gets approved. Approval is done
| by DAO stakeholder by casting votes.
|
| From a freelancer's perspective this can be a bidding platform
| where gig workers can place their proposals and get paid once
| the work is done. A very transparent and seamless experience as
| compared to existing freelance marketplaces.
| aeolian wrote:
| As a member of a DAO, this is almost-right.
|
| A DAO isn't necessarily an "application"; it's more of a
| concept, an idea.
|
| There are a bunch of tools/applications that facilitate the
| operation of a DAO. I wrote a blog post about this:
| https://blog.juicebox.money/dao-tooling-101/
|
| In the case of the JuiceboxDAO, I contributed funds (ETH) to
| the DAO treasury (bank account), and in return I got $JBX (a
| token that lives on Ethereum). I have about 40,000 JBX
| tokens. With these token, I can: - use it to vote on
| proposals. - "burn it" in exchange for some ETH back (but
| probably not get my original investment - sell it somewhere
| else (an automated market maker like Uniswap)
| corobo wrote:
| I think I'm very close to beginning to understand this
| whole thing haha thanks for the post
|
| Oddly enough I've already been wanting to set something
| like this up -- my equivalent is running a regular business
| but with a pretty intense profit share scheme
|
| Honestly it sounds perfect except these gas fees. Can
| someone clarify am I right in thinking it's prohibitively
| expensive to create any of these
| tokens/shares/votes/whatever because of fees? Assuming
| you're broke as hell and missed the original crypto train
| addandsubtract wrote:
| If you set it up on Ethereum, then yes, it probably will
| be too expensive in your case. However, there are several
| other chains where you could set up a DAO with close to
| zero gas fees. For example Polygon or Fantom, among
| others. The major hurdle atm is "bridging" assets onto
| these newer chains. Most exchanges currently only support
| the big players, but as these grow and mature, adoption
| and UX/DX should improve as well.
| corobo wrote:
| Feels a bit too Wild West (and expensive as fuck) for me
| right now, I'll just use a database and later regular old
| shares I think haha
|
| Maybe I'll pop back when it's web3.1
| ranuzz wrote:
| >> it's more of a concept, an idea.
|
| Thanks for stating it this way, makes a lot more sense now.
| Your example and blog post cleared a lot of doubts !
| wlesieutre wrote:
| For context, Patron member is at EUR120K+ per year, and this puts
| them as the 7th one. Other patron members are GPU manufacturers
| (Nvidia/AMD), game engines (Epic/Unity), Facebook (pre-Meta, but
| presumably for VR reasons), and AWS (no idea, publicity move to
| promote AWS use by game studios?). Decentraland fits in there
| alongside Meta.
| pen2l wrote:
| AWS is easy to understand, it provides cloud-rendering:
| https://www.amazonaws.cn/en/solutions/cloud-rendering-farm/
|
| Thinkbox/deadline is pretty mature and as I understand it is
| actually already being used by a handful of big shops.
| AndreasHae wrote:
| AWS might be because of Lumberyard, their fork of CryEngine
| wlesieutre wrote:
| Right, that makes sense. It's now evolved into O3DE, but last
| year when they joined the BDF Lumberyard's license required
| games to use AWS for servers.
|
| https://o3de.org/
| marmada wrote:
| Can someone w/ more crypto experience explain how a DAO
| actualizes its decisions?
|
| For example: Here, there was a vote. Now what? Will Blender setup
| a wallet that can accept ETH? Will the DAO then vote on a
| transaction that sends money from the DAO to Blender's ETH
| wallet??
| aeolian wrote:
| I'm not sure about Decentraland specifically, but typically
| there will be a subset of the DAO members who actually control
| the DAO treasury in a "multisig wallet". Say they have 10
| signatories, they might have a requirement that 8 of the 10
| signatories approve a transaction to either send ETH to
| Blender, or do the necessary swaps to give Blender USD. The
| signatories have committed to execute the will of the DAO.
|
| Voting happens "off chain" using a tool called Snapshot
| (https://snapshot.org/#/snapshot.dcl.eth). If people hold some
| Decentraland tokens/assets, they can vote, and their vote is
| weighted in proportion to their holdings. This isn't without
| its problems:
| https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/08/16/voting3.html
|
| If you want to learn more, I wrote a blog post on DAO tooling
| 101: https://blog.juicebox.money/dao-tooling-101/
| nightpool wrote:
| That's pretty funny, that's basically identical to how
| standard corporations work, except instead of "signatories"
| you have "corporate officers" and instead of "off chain
| voting" you have (very thoroughly-regulated!) "shareholder
| proxy statements".
| vvpan wrote:
| Well that's the point actually. It is a lot like
| shareholder/board of directors voting. Except that the DAO
| requires virtually no bureaucracy to get up and running. So
| if, say, you and your local community wanted to start an
| organization to fund some common-goods project you can do
| it in a few minutes, provided you have people who are
| onboard with the vision and have a little money to put in.
| After that all voting and movement of funds is transparent.
| The code replaces corporate structure. There are unsolved
| problems like vote-buying and all that, but then other
| mechanisms would kick like "rage-quitting" (a term used
| officially by some DAO systems) by which DAOs can dissolve
| and funds be withdrawn by contributors. Plenty of research
| projects on the table, but benefits are already being
| reaped, as in this Blender case.
| [deleted]
| 22c wrote:
| The most common way it works is that a snapshot of all holders
| of the governance token is taken at a certain point in time and
| a proposal is made, which all holders in the snapshot are able
| to vote on by signing their response.
|
| Blender already accepts donations on Ethereum mainnet at
| 0x9De8991C56F622175274fb358f981AF6F903a799. The proposal which
| passed was to send a "one-time" donation to Blender, but it's
| not clear if they're going to be sending MANA (which is the
| currency in use on Decentraland) or if they're going to send a
| USD equivalent stablecoin. Unless the Blender devs are willing
| to be paid in MANA, it will need to be converted to fiat at
| some point.
| endisneigh wrote:
| "Create, explore and trade in the first-ever virtual world owned
| by its users."
|
| > "Join our Discord"
|
| In all seriousness, congrats to Blender for getting some more
| money.
| beepbooptheory wrote:
| Take the money and run!
| dmix wrote:
| Anyone tried decentraland? Any good?
| monkeydust wrote:
| Yes and No. Reminded me of Second Life but worse.
|
| Good video overview here
|
| https://youtu.be/z5-QaCq9mh8
| TigeriusKirk wrote:
| I take regular tours around it to see what's going on. And the
| general answer is not a lot.
|
| Largest percentage of developed plots are NFT showrooms, some
| for sale, some just showing off (which is totally valid in my
| mind). Some trying to sell wearables for your in-world avatar.
|
| There's some casino operations, the largest being a poker room
| which seems to where the most people congregate.
|
| There's a crafting game where you have to collect materials
| that are doled out slowly enough that it takes days to make
| anything.
|
| A couple of very mildly interactive "rides" for lack of a
| better term.
|
| A number of largely abandoned...I don't know...architectural
| phantasies? Places where someone built weird/interesting things
| because they could.
|
| There's a lot of hype around trading the virtual land, but the
| prices are all out of whack with the utility. Far, far too
| little land at far, far too high prices. People are dreaming of
| being virtual landlords, but it's hard for me to see that
| playing out well for them.
|
| The software development is glacial compared to the rest of the
| crypto world.
|
| My opinion is that the project as a whole on a dead end path,
| but I check in once or twice a week to see if anyone is doing
| anything interesting with their little piece of it.
| mangecoeur wrote:
| Always glad to see funds go to a great and well managed Open
| source project like Blender!
|
| That said, looking up what the hell is 'Decentraland' and how it
| works is to dive into a dystopian nightmare. Cutesy illustrations
| tell you: 'Decentraland: it's like a second rate RPG, except
| instead of in game currency you have to use your actual cash to
| participate in a tech-bro pyramid scheme where each coin has the
| climate impact equivalent to burning down a substantial area of
| rainforest'.
|
| Blender foundation should insist on getting cash up front ;)
| choward wrote:
| I just find it funny that people are using this to escape all
| the problems of the real world by implementing all the problems
| the real world has in a virtual world.
|
| I do have to give people credit for coming up with one of the
| most elaborate pump and dump schemes of all time.
| dkersten wrote:
| I looked into Decentraland about a month ago (because someone I
| know was going on about it) and to me it looked like what I
| remember Cybertown [1] was circa 2000, except with NFT's. I
| wasn't very impressed, even visually, it looked quite dated.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CyberTown
| [deleted]
| vvpan wrote:
| You will only see a dystopian nightmare when that's what they
| are looking to see.
|
| * A DAO is a lot of people who are looking to create common
| good via small donations and common participation. This was the
| goal and ideology of Ethereum from the moment it was conceived.
| And here the DAO is helping out a beautiful open source project
| that has benefited many people, so Ethereum is delivering on
| its ideological promise quiet literally and objectively. Very
| dystopian, right.
|
| * What Decentraland is is beyond the point. If you don't like
| Second Life and all that (I have zero interest personally) it
| has nothing to do with your argument. People enjoy it and here
| they are supporting to keep it free (as in freedom).
|
| * I do not see how "use your actual cash" is a negative
| argument here. Having all platforms be absolutely free made the
| user the product and lead to an actual dystopian nightmare
| which is the current control of all user data by like two
| corporations. New methods of governance, monetization and user-
| owned data are what's needed to prevent a dystopian nightmare.
| Decentraland is making progress on all of those. All of those,
| btw, are part of the ideological vision of Ethereum that I
| mentioned above, so once again - it is doing the intended job.
|
| * Climate impact is an old argument, we can argue about it for
| hours and not get anywhere. But Ethereum is switching off PoW
| within the next few months and many projects have already moved
| to L2 which does not rely on PoW consensus for every
| transactions.
|
| Again, you see only the things you are looking for. People
| coordinating major funding for a large open source project
| while having democratic say over the platform they are using to
| you seems like an accidental byproduct but it was the primary
| goal all these years.
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