[HN Gopher] Ikea Vindriktning Air Quality Sensor Review and Accu...
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Ikea Vindriktning Air Quality Sensor Review and Accuracy
Author : ahaucnx
Score : 376 points
Date : 2021-12-06 11:26 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.airgradient.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.airgradient.com)
| DannyBee wrote:
| I would be very careful with this kind of evaluation. There are
| lots of sensors that perform well vs reference instruments but
| not in the field.
|
| If you want real evaluations, SCAQMD (the folks in charge of air
| quality for southern california) do evaluations of commercially
| available, low cost sensors, both against reference instruments
| and the lab.
|
| See http://www.aqmd.gov/aq-spec/evaluations
|
| You can see what i said is true from the table - _lots_ of
| sensors that are very well correlated with reference instruments
| in the lab, but suck horribly in the field.
|
| I would think you would be better off submitting the sensor in
| question to them, and letting them put it through its paces.
|
| (They publish within a month of finishing testing, and testing
| takes ~8 weeks)
| hedora wrote:
| Thanks for the link; that's a great resource!
|
| To summarize their current results: Purple Air (especially
| version 2) is the only one that doesn't suck at measuring PM
| 2.5. None of the consumer-targeted gaseous sensors they tested
| work.
|
| Did I miss something? Is some other third party running more
| comprehensive tests?
| DannyBee wrote:
| Assuming you care PM1.0/PM2.5 (which are what are truly
| harmful), and want R^2 >0.9:
|
| Atmotube pro Elitech (for PM2.5) Purpleair
|
| The field evaluations have good expositions of the underlying
| data in slide form. For sure the purpleair is the best bet
| that i can see. Note that they are pragmatic as well - if you
| read field evaluations, AQMD folks generally think >0.8 R^2
| is very good. Which probably makes sense comparing a $50-$250
| device to a several thousand dollar reference instrument.
|
| Note that one serious issue is that a bunch of the sensors
| aren't just uncorrelated, they are often dramatically
| undercounting. It would be one thing if they were
| dramatically overcounting, and told you air was horrible when
| it wasn't. But they are actually telling you air is fine when
| it isn't even close to fine.
|
| I actually went down the same path as OP about 6 months ago.
| I have used a dylos meter in my old woodshop, and was
| building a new one, and wanted to see what the the best thing
| to do was. After a bunch of looking, i found these folks. I
| am not aware of others doing this breadth of testing.
|
| (It turn out the dylos meter is either accurate, or
| overcounts, depending on temperature/humidity. This is
| actually acceptable since it won't tell me things are good
| when they are bad, but it also turned out the purpleair was
| consistently good for the same price :P)
| formerly_proven wrote:
| So the two purpleair devices are using PM1003 and PM5003
| sensors, respectively. These are available off the shelf as
| well. I suppose the salient question is: does purpleair
| calibrate / select these themselves or add anything to them
| (e.g. filter), or can you just use a PMS5003 for 30 bucks and
| get similar results?
| genewitch wrote:
| Afaik you can use the $30 module and be within acceptable
| tolerances, but you really should have at least a
| temperature and humidity sensor as well, because as that
| changes the other sensors will report differently.
|
| I've noticed that even being exposed to pure carbon dioxide
| the sensors I have will increase the counts of CO, VOC, and
| HCHO, which is unlikely and a false read.
|
| I only care about CO2 for my devices, so my two $30 sensor
| based devices are fine.
| Gatsky wrote:
| The Sensirion does pretty OK for the price and form factor.
| jiveturkey wrote:
| +1
|
| I don't have a problem with the OP's analysis of the Ikea
| sensor. It seems generally reasonable. But rather with their
| implication that the DIY sensor being promoted is of higher
| quality.
|
| Because accuracy is very much a "finished product"
| implementation issue, not just the sensor itself, such
| implication is off-base, particularly in direct comparison to
| any finished commercial product. The accuracy of the DIY
| version is going to vary -- a lot -- depending on the builder
| of such.
|
| I wonder if AQMD would evaluate a "reference build" of the DIY
| sensor, seeing as there is an enclosure as part of the
| "reference" implementation. At bare minimum, the airgradient
| site should have comparison to highly ranked (by AQMD) sensors,
| such as purple air. I'm actually quite surprised there are no
| such comparisons on the site.
| dognotdog wrote:
| IMO, the single biggest problem is that even five-figure
| reference instruments disagree considerably in the 0-20 ug/m3
| range, and if you look at the figures of the SCAQMD tests, you
| won't see much more than noise in the scatter plots in that
| range, with increasing consistency at larger concentrations.
| Some of this is due to mismatches in response times and
| synchronization, but a lot of it is due to different
| disturbances, noise processes, and varying sensitivities to
| different particle size distributions in different sensor
| types.
|
| With inexpensive optical scattering sensors, the situation is
| even worse. While it is easy enough enough to "count"
| individual 2.5um particles, the scattering equations work out
| to an order of 10^6 reduction in scattering amplitude, per
| particle, going down to 0.3um (when measured with red or infra-
| red light), and different particle compositions will scatter
| differently. On top of that, the number of particles increases
| significantly per unit mass concentration, making the signal
| processing a lot harder once one can't just threshold
| individual "blips" in the signal.
|
| Whether the sensors are particle counting or nephelometric in
| principle, the basic trade-off is that to see smaller
| particles, they need higher amplification factors, which in
| turn increases thermal noise, also amplifies stray light, and
| makes the device more sensitive to EM interference. Many signal
| processing pipelines do simplistic noise filtering, throwing
| out much of the baby with the bathwater.
|
| On top of these principal difficulties, the optical scattering
| type sensors are quite sensitive to temperature variation, and
| aging of the photoelectronic components, which is why field
| tests under varied conditions often depress their accuracy even
| further.
|
| Long story short, it is very easy to build a sensor with
| qualitatively good correlations to actual PM concentration, as
| long as the PM concentration is sufficiently high, but the
| health effects have no threshold, and every added bit of
| pollution counts, starting at zero. Unfortunately, commodity PM
| sensors are quite bad at quantifying these low, yet meaningful,
| ambient pollutant levels, which is probably why IKEA chose
| their traffic light thresholds the way the did: not because of
| how it relates to health, but because this is what they could
| do with a $12 device.
| jansan wrote:
| My takeaway from the article: Buy the sensor, make sure air
| quality is in the "good" range (green light) and you will be
| fine. I think I will order a few.
| tdrdt wrote:
| Exactly. Recently I bought a very cheap CO2 meter. It is
| inaccurate, but still accurate enough for 99% of the people.
| TheBlerch wrote:
| Which CO2 meter did you get, how accurate is it and how much
| did it cost? Agreed people just need a meter good enough to
| tell them when air quality isn't good.
| tdrdt wrote:
| The brand is Simr, but I think there are only 3 or 4 meters
| that are sold as whitelabel and rebranded a thousand times.
| I think it was around $30.
|
| Outside it measures around 400ppm so the base point is
| good. Inside it measures 480ppm with good ventilation. When
| someone farts it goes to 2000ppm for a while. So I think it
| measures 'alright'.
| mh- wrote:
| I'd pay $30 for a fart detector. CO2 accuracy would just
| be a bonus
| numpad0 wrote:
| Referring to acetone detectors with lousy linear lookup
| feature as "eCO2 sensor" is infuriating but do I must admit
| it's an okay reminder for room occupants to open windows...
| etimberg wrote:
| Agreed. I think I will buy at least one given that the cost is
| so low.
| blackbear_ wrote:
| > Conclusion: [...] However, the defined cut off values for the
| air quality and its description as "Good", "OK", and "Not Good"
| are not based on science or international recommendations and
| create the false understanding that the air is good, when in
| fact it is not good at all.
| jansan wrote:
| Considering that the article was basically written by somone
| who is selling competing products I would take this statement
| with a truckload of salt.
| colechristensen wrote:
| I'm not selling anything and unless the writer is outright
| lying about the number ranges, I agree with them. The
| "green" range is way too lenient and the sensor will only
| help you keep away from really terrible air quality, most
| people would have it green always while doing nothing at
| all.
| jansan wrote:
| As I understand it "yellow" will indicate better air
| quality than "Unhealthy for Sensitive Groups" according
| to the US standard. I see a difference between "Unhealthy
| for Sensitive Groups" and "really terrible air quality"
| as you describe it.
| micheljansen wrote:
| The article already mentions connecting a Wemos D1 mini, which
| lead me to searching for a howto. Stumbled onto this excellent
| article by my old friend Guy, complete with assembly pictures:
| https://style.oversubstance.net/2021/08/diy-use-an-ikea-vind...
| simonebrunozzi wrote:
| It's almost incredible that for something as "simple" as an air
| quality sensor, particularly in relation to PM2.5 (the most
| important metric for most buyers, IMHO), there's no simple answer
| as: product X costs $50 and provides 99.X% accuracy; product Y
| costs $200 and provides 99.9X% accuracy.
|
| Two years ago, during one of the most intense fire seasons in
| California, I spent a few hours studying different solutions, and
| ended up buying a refurbished PurpleAir sensor. It seemed to work
| great, but I felt it was a bit too expensive for what it was
| doing, too bulky, and in general not as easy to use for the
| ordinary person as it should be.
|
| Same problem with home air filters - if you want to purify the
| air in your house, there's too many snake-oil solutions out
| there, and few that are worth the spending.
| ortusdux wrote:
| Finding myself in a similar situation with last years fires, I
| have had great luck with the WINIX air filters sold at costco.
| I bought 2 on sale for $100/ea. They are 5 staged with HEPA and
| charcoal filters, have a built-in air quality monitor of
| unknown quality (I should open one up one of these days), and
| they have an ok app that allows you to check air quality and
| adjust their settings. Each unit includes 2 years of filters,
| and they look to be about $30/year/unit to replace after that.
| hedora wrote:
| Air filtration and monitoring are a classic market for lemons.
|
| Wirecutter has decent-ish tests of air filters, though they
| assume tiny New York apartments, so you have to dig around a
| lot to find results for larger units.
|
| (From reading their review, you'd think >1000 sq ft homes are
| unheard of in the US, but the average is closer to 2000 sq ft)
| s0rce wrote:
| If you have some electronics experience you can buy the
| Plantower sensors that PurpleAir uses and connect it to a
| microcontroller, there are guides mentioned in the comments
| here.
| baxuz wrote:
| Oh, I was just about to buy a few.
| [deleted]
| rceDia wrote:
| Cheap, easy to use is o.k. not sure of reliability. Another IOT
| at home air quality solution is Purple Air. Offers units for
| outdoor or indoor. Not as cheap as IKEA but affordable.
| https://www2.purpleair.com/
| micheljansen wrote:
| $200 for the cheapest model though. That's a factor 20!
| Someone1234 wrote:
| Informative article with fair, fact based, conclusions.
|
| I'd like to add that:
|
| - The VINDRIKTNING is extremely consumer accessible ($11.99, good
| build, simple traffic light system).
|
| - It may be put into spaces that previously had no particulate
| air quality monitoring.
|
| - The spouse-acceptance-factor is extremely high (unlike e.g. a
| couple of circuit boards wired together off of Aliexpress).
|
| There are other consumer friendly offerings, but they aren't
| affordable (e.g. Amazon Smart Air Quality Monitor 4x cost,
| Airthings 10x cost). That being said, IKEA could fix their
| traffic-light system's cut off points for free and should
| consider it.
| azth wrote:
| > - The spouse-acceptance-factor is extremely high (unlike e.g.
| a couple of circuit boards wired together off of Aliexpress).
|
| Which circuit boards do you recommend that have high accuracy
| that can be ordered?
| ahaucnx wrote:
| I can recommed the Plantower 5003 PM sensor. Plantower also
| has smaller ones, e.g. 7003 or A003 but we get the best (most
| accurate and stable) readings from the 5003 model.
|
| We also experienced with more expensive ones e.g. from
| Sensirion but did not really measure a significant advantage
| compared to the Plantower.
| ahaucnx wrote:
| It is actually pretty easy to build a much more accurate air
| quality sensor with the Plantower PM2.5 module as a base and a
| Wemos D1 mini as WiFi connected MCU. We have build instructions
| on our website on how to do it [1] + a nice 3D printable
| enclosure to pass the spouse-acceptance ;).
|
| [1] https://www.airgradient.com/diy/
| Someone1234 wrote:
| I don't think our usages of "accessible" are the same.
|
| For example expecting to consumers to have a 3D printer and
| know how to use one would preclude it from my definition by a
| lot. Let alone needing a breadboard and to manually solder on
| components onto it.
|
| Accessible is walking into a store, putting a reasonable
| amount of money down, and plugging the thing in. Then
| providing output anyone can understand without training or
| expertise (e.g. traffic lights, smiley faces, etc).
| zahma wrote:
| Fortunately this is even easier:
| https://sensor.community/en/sensors/
| hedora wrote:
| I once bought an air filter that had the pm 2.5 rating
| surrounded by a blue/yellow/red halo. The only things it
| was missing were logging, and the ability to run the sensor
| without the fan. It could change fan speeds based on PM
| 2.5, but it was calibrated for a small room, and always ran
| way too slow.
|
| I wish there were standards around thermostats these days.
| If there were, then people could sell gizmos that measure
| PM 2.5, then (if the windows are closed), use it to set the
| speed of the variable speed blower in central air furnaces
| accordingly. This would cut our electricity usage by at
| least 20-30% during fire season.
|
| (I'd love to see a legal mandate for interoperability in
| this space.)
| Tijdreiziger wrote:
| > I wish there were standards around thermostats these
| days.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenTherm
| genewitch wrote:
| My furnace blower isn't in use any longer, but it has
| connections for varying speeds, 6, I think. It only uses
| 1, though. I'm unsure of how it would even be used in
| practice, as it appears it's just various voltages.
| Ideally furnace blowers would be inverter ran so you
| could just tell the inverter how fast to run the fan,
| rather than changing the supply voltage.
|
| Mine was a 3.5 ton HVAC, I replaced it with a five head,
| five and a half ton "mini split"; while the split air has
| had it's share of issues (like, I got a full refund of
| the purchase price a few months ago due to manufacturing
| defects of the copper lines), I prefer having air
| handling done bear the ceiling and using 20x20x1 inch
| filters on box fans (or fancy filters if those are your
| style) on the floor. The mini split has the inverter
| driven motors everywhere, and is completely silent during
| normal use.
|
| I have two AQM, and occasionally one or the other will
| register high CO2 or whatever and I will open a couple of
| windows and run exhaust fans (built in to the home) to
| cycle the air, it takes about 20 minutes. The main
| furnace style system did no filtering or air quality
| management.
| mellavora wrote:
| to be fair, ahaucnx didn't use the word 'accessible', he
| just said 'easy to build' -- and this is hacker news, not
| consumer reports.
|
| but if you do want 'accessible' in your sense of the word
| (pay some money, get a working assembled unit), AirGradient
| does sell assembled units. And can provide a back-end
| system for remote monitoring if you would like.
| Someone1234 wrote:
| The comment was edited to remove the word. "Easy to
| build" wasn't originally there.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| I see that there's a tiny 20x20 fan in these modules. Do
| these make audible noise or are the fans in these running
| rather slowly just to have air movement "better than
| convection" through the sensor?
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| The person who did the original hack on these says they are
| audible and the controller is constantly switching the fan
| on and off so they reconnected it to 3.3v all the time. So
| it runs at a lower speed and constantly.
|
| See this link under the low noise mod heading
|
| https://github.com/Hypfer/esp8266-vindriktning-particle-
| sens...
| beckingz wrote:
| Spouse acceptance factor is an underrated engineering
| constraint.
| monopoledance wrote:
| And likely an unnecessary sexist remark.
| ev1 wrote:
| No sex or gender was implied by the word spouse?
| monopoledance wrote:
| "technically, ..."
|
| Yeah, I know. That's why I said likely. C'mon, don't play
| stupid.
| illumanaughty wrote:
| What makes it likely when nothing about sex/gender is
| mentioned? Seems like you're the one that has a gender
| bias and you're projecting lol
| monopoledance wrote:
| Sure. Must be me projecting, because sexism in tech does
| not exist.
|
| > Spouse acceptance factor is an underrated engineering
| constraint
|
| So, tell me, how could this be interpreted without
| implicit gender assumptions? Get creative, you got this!
| simondotau wrote:
| Can you explain why it would be sexist, even if we
| applied mid-20th century framing to it? Why is it
| degrading to describe someone as having a different
| threshold of tolerance for aesthetics?
| monopoledance wrote:
| > having a different threshold of tolerance for
| aesthetics
|
| Lol. How you all trying hard to reframe it, to make it
| sound innocent.
|
| I am not going to explain shit. Look how y'all got
| triggered, totally normal reaction... The original post
| flagged... If you don't see the generalized "women/wives
| don't like nerdy/tech stuff", there is no point to this.
| UnFleshedOne wrote:
| Well, but is it wrong? Even you knew which gender is less
| likely to like bare baseboard with chips sticking out. Do
| you expect people to actively disregard their lived
| experience?
| monopoledance wrote:
| > Well, but is it wrong? Even you knew which gender is
| less likely to like bare baseboard with chips sticking
| out. Do you expect people to actively disregard their
| lived experience
|
| Thanks, for confirming it. Ridiculous, how everyone is
| trying to bend interpretation.
| LeanderK wrote:
| I think being low-cost is very important, otherwise I wouldn't
| consider it. I don't live near a major road, but in a small
| city. I don't think the air-quality is bad, but I also don't
| know for sure. I would not invest a significant amount of money
| (more than 10-15EUR).
| TheBlerch wrote:
| You may find the Breezometer app helpful - I've found it
| quite accurate for local outdoor air quality in several
| different areas.
| Someone1234 wrote:
| I've found a lot of indoor sources of contaminants for
| example cheese that fell off a Pizza onto the oven floor will
| put you into "yellow" the next time you run the oven.
| jve wrote:
| Really glad this was published. I was looking at airgradient
| solution for PM2.5 monitoring, but while thinking - saw this @
| IKEA and bought it. And it is in my short term plan to wire it
| with Wemos D1 so I plot values and make sense on whether IKEA air
| purifier helps anything or not. Because if I follow the LEDs,
| it's chaos - it can be RED for hours with purifier nearby. And
| the same without purifier - colors just like to change in my
| house.
|
| I have a question about precision: If the precision +-20mg/m3 -
| isn't it actually normal that they "extend" the green led up to
| 35mg/m3 then? Because that 12mg/m3 is maybe 32? Uh, looks like
| not even PMS5003 can reliably show you that green line with a
| high confidence, doesn't it?
|
| Btw here is a nice thread that shows you how to wire it up with
| Wemos D1 and connect to Home Assistant. People compare their
| readings with other meters, too. But someone says he bought
| multiple of those and even those show different numbers. Someone
| sees IEKA values 10x higher (for lower values, but within
| specified accuracy) than other sensor https://community.home-
| assistant.io/t/ikea-vindriktning-air-...
|
| But at least they FOLLOW the plot of more accurate sensors. I see
| value in that. I want to know if air purifier helps something or
| how much it helps.
| genewitch wrote:
| As a quick aside, both the air quality things I bought say not
| to rely on instantaneous readings but instead to use the
| aggregator average reading. One has the ability to show
| averages and the other is more like "if the value is
| consistently higher than normal it's probably correctly 'high'"
| - so unless there's some weirdness in the Ikea one it shouldn't
| be switching colors unless you are very close to the threshold.
|
| It is possible that your air filter shakes or vibrates enough
| that it's kicking dust up, or you have poor indoor air quality.
| How often do you have to replace filters and how dirty are
| they? For reference I live in a forest, with pollen and dirt
| dust and people and pet dust, poor seals on windows, and open
| doors/screens, as well as high humidity year round; I buy the
| 3M 1000-1500 filters which are pretty beefy, and they last
| about two months before becoming uniformly dark grey on front
| and back. Ideally I'd replace them monthly but they're about
| $15 each and that adds up across three filters.
|
| I ask because I don't think my system does anything for VOC, I
| don't use carbon filters for the three, so I'm mostly filtering
| dust, pollen, clay, etc.
| jve wrote:
| I bought this unit just ~2 weeks ago?
| https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/foernuftig-air-purifier-
| black-6...
|
| So I haven't had chance to change filters yet.
|
| Yeah, but it has high outgoing airflow, so I suppose it
| shakes up dust for me. It changes to red pretty fast when
| starting to cook, then hours, hours to bring it down.
| thecal wrote:
| Direct link to the item:
| https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/vindriktning-air-quality-sensor...
| GatorD42 wrote:
| The color guides seem similar to the IQAir AirVisual Pro and
| Apple's weather app. Like the article mentions this is likely to
| be inside and most useful for alerting when cooking has caused
| significant particle emissions, that's what I use my AirVisual
| for.
| [deleted]
| maltalex wrote:
| Say I'm convinced enough to order an AirGradient kit. Is this
| accurate? Does it take up to 5 weeks for _most_ destinations?
|
| > We currently ship approximately 1-2 weeks after receipt of
| payments. Delivery takes 2-3 weeks to most destinations (North
| America, Europe, Australia).
| ahaucnx wrote:
| The shipping times mentioned on the website are a bit
| conservative and often it is faster.
|
| We currently have kits in stock and ship within a few days of
| orders received.
|
| Shipping times really vary depending on destination and are
| hard to predict but 2-3 weeks is a good estimation.
| Foivos wrote:
| For the price it is offered, it performs very well. I am not
| aware of any other PM2.5 sensor at $10. It cheapest I have seen
| is $40.
|
| You can still use it to get a rough idea of your air quality and
| it is definitely "better than nothing (or not having it)".
| Semaphor wrote:
| The one they use for their DIY Kit [0] actually costs $16-19
| [0] at aliexpress
|
| [0]: https://www.airgradient.com/diy/
|
| [1]: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32944660534.html
| djanogo wrote:
| Playing devil's advocate, this device is obviously made for mass
| market($11.99), what if the WHO/AQI "Good" numbers are too hard
| to achieve for general consumers?, the buyers of this device
| might be venturing into clean air for the first time and the last
| thing they want to see is "orange/red" ALL the time.
| blacksmith_tb wrote:
| I bought three Vindriktnings when they came out, and on a day
| when we had some wildfire smoke making outdoor air quality
| around 150 put all three outside. Two went yellow then red,
| while the third stayed green... I guess I'd prefer a false
| positive to a false negative personally. It's true, they only
| cost me $13 each, so not a huge loss but it does suggest there
| are quality control problems with either the sensor or the
| whole device.
| Animats wrote:
| That's just particles. No CO2 sensor.
| mpalczewski wrote:
| Just to add to this:
|
| CO2 is important because it is a proxy for how much air you are
| rebreathing. This is especially important because of Covid. If
| you have a few people in a poorly ventilated room co2 will
| climb. Whereas in a well ventilated room, it might be nearly as
| good as being outside.
|
| Even for just being at home this is important because if the
| air is poorly ventilated it will feel "stuffy". It can affect
| how well you are able to think and work.
|
| Most air quality meter's only measure pollution, and you have
| to get an expensive one to measure co2 which is why it is
| frequently omitted despite importance.
| dsizzle wrote:
| Does anybody have any stories of how devices like this revealed a
| problem -- what the problem was, does an air filter fix it, etc?
| kccqzy wrote:
| There was a time when my air quality sensor (a Temtop device)
| showed suspiciously high PM2.5 in the kitchen. It turned out
| the kitchen oven had too much oil build up inside and required
| cleaning. And no, I tried both cheap and expensive air
| purifiers; none of them could beat opening the kitchen window
| or turning on the range hood (a dedicated one, not the kind
| attached to a microwave). In this particular case, it was also
| a good reminder to clean the oven.
| colechristensen wrote:
| You would be surprised how much particulate certain cooking
| methods produce, your home can go from 0 AQI to forest fire
| levels for a few hours without a filter.
|
| With the right filter and sensor, you can keep your AQI in the
| single digits consistently and react appropriately to particle
| buildup. If you have a CO2 sensor as well you can react to CO2
| buildup which is something I have experienced plenty of times
| in a modern apartment (not necessarily dangerous levels but
| levels high enough that cognitive effects should be expected).
| It is hard to keep indoor CO2 levels anywhere near outdoor
| levels without forced ventilation with the outside or living in
| a large house.
| dsizzle wrote:
| Do you have any recs for the right filter and sensor?
| dylanz wrote:
| Someone referred me to https://oransi.com/ and I purchased
| one of the large EJ120 models. I've had it running for a
| few days and my place no longer has a smell and the air
| just feels clean. It's bizarre.
| dsizzle wrote:
| Doesn't look like any of those have sensors, unless I
| missed that? I guess one sensor is your nose in this
| case, ha.
| amatecha wrote:
| Nice, thanks for the recommendation. Is the EJ120 very
| audible? Where do you place it? Like someone mentioned
| elsewhere, the spouse approval factor is relevant for
| what air filtration solution I go with... haha
| kfarr wrote:
| We have an indoor purple air sensor with a color gradient
| indicator (from green all the way to purple and many
| gradients in between). Exactly as you've said we are
| surprised at the number of times cooking has turned the air
| quality horrible indoors. Further we are able to see how when
| air outside is smoky from wildfires that the internal air
| filters are doing their job. Definitely worth the cost for us
| in the Bay Area:
| https://www2.purpleair.com/products/purpleair-pa-i-indoor
| dirtyid wrote:
| I have a xiaomi air purifier with AQ detector. Scrubber seems
| to to help with allergies. Detector itself is pretty much a
| glorified smoke detector Tamagotchi toy for me. I haven't found
| much use for it other than to keep numbers as low / nominal as
| I can. For which living in a pretty clean part of the city with
| good air quality means being more mindful when I cook to reduce
| smoke. That said the high AQ alarm has saved me a couple times
| from leaving stove top on / burning pots. Kind of paid for
| itself in that sense.
| fma wrote:
| Yes...formaldehyde exposure is a big issue in the US. Not many
| know of it. I bought a new construction house, so it has new
| carpet, paint, cabinets, wood flooring etc has an off gas
| effect. I honestly it's criminal to allow builders to build
| like this, or material to be manufactured like this. That "new
| car" smell, that smell when you open up new furniture made of
| plywood (the glue contains formaldehyde) .
|
| There are threshold laws in the US and Europe. There are laws
| from OSHA that regulate where you work - but no laws that
| regular where you sleep! It's all driven by money, of
| course...material with lower formaldehyde cost more to
| manufacture. Just walk into a Sherwin Williams and compare
| their paint. The highest ones are eco friendly "Low VOC"
| (volatile organic compound) - so industry definitely knows
| about it.
|
| The numbers in my house were effectively off the charts and
| OSHA would be closing down your employer if you had this
| exposure at work.
|
| Remediation for this is essentially allow to off gas, keep
| windows open. Off gassing also is impacted by humidity, so may
| be low during winter but high in the summer or when it rains.
|
| Air filter DOES NOT fix this. The amount of air moved by a HVAC
| is peanuts compared to just opening windows for a few minutes.
|
| California has regulations: https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/our-
| work/programs/composite-wood-prod...
| AdrianoKF wrote:
| I have a Vindriktning with the ESP8266 makeover sitting on the
| desk behind me, feeding its data into my Home Assistant instance.
| So far it's working great, except for one annoying detail: I'd
| much prefer the forced airflow fan to be on at all times, since
| the constant on-off cycling (around every ~10s) is quite audible
| and distracting in a quiet environment.
| solomonb wrote:
| How do you know it is working great? Have you compared it
| against other known sensors?
| ortusdux wrote:
| Does anyone know how amazon's new unit fares? It monitors PM 2.5,
| CO, VOCs, temp, & humidity for 70$. I wouldn't buy one
| considering the source, but I am interested in how effective it
| is.
|
| https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08W8KS8D3?&linkCode=ll1&tag=andro...
| intrasight wrote:
| http://energysmartohio.com/indoor-air-quality/which-indoor-a...
|
| I've always returned to the Dylos sensor as the gold standard
|
| Another good review of sensors: http://www.aqmd.gov/aq-
| spec/evaluations/summary-pm
| flybrand wrote:
| I work at H&V - we're one of the biggest makers of air filter
| media (the rolled goods / fabrics - not the actual filters).
|
| We love seeing the innovation going on in this space - any
| suggestions on how we could better support this growing awareness
| of the value of IAQ?
| dribblecup wrote:
| Sponsor open source code and open source hardware solutions
| that DIY folks can put together at $300 or below price point.
|
| Gold star if you sponsor an independent test of this solution
| to verify its effectiveness.
|
| Bonus points for explaining what matters in terms of testing.
|
| Self-serving (which is OK in this context) points for
| explaining how your product mitigates the problem by
| demonstrating the DIY metered results.
| jve wrote:
| I mean... first of all I would like to hear what are the
| consequences of good/bad IAQ (Indoor Air Quality?)
|
| I'm actually more driven/interested in data/compare it to
| other folks, but I don't have a clue what does it mean for my
| health. What's the difference between PM2.5, PM10, PM1,
| PM0.1. What is TVOC (as in sensor description: benzene,etc
| Volatile organic compounds), HCHO (is for formaldehyde). How
| do I measure them (parent expands on these questions), what
| are the "norms" and, most importantly: WHY should I care
| about those values?
|
| Then ofcourse tips on HOW to decrease those particles. That's
| where filter comes in, yeah. First time someone said he just
| slaps filter on an air ventilator, I was like: "Wow, it's SO
| simple? Yeah, sounds logical"
| zahma wrote:
| I think I've plugged this here before. Sensor is an open
| community trying to track pollution. You can build your own
| sensor by ordering a dozen or so parts for 50-100 USD off
| AliExpress or Amazon (or wherever else you'd prefer because
| there's really nothing extraordinary here). Some sensors even go
| down to 1 micrometer. The firmware is built to distinguish
| between 1, 2.5, and 10 micrometers. I believe AQI is the standard
| metric that is used for the map's visualization.
|
| It requires minimal technical expertise, no 3D printing, no
| soldering, and minimal configuration.
|
| It's a noble mission, and I find the granularity of data for both
| pollution and temperature far more telling than the estimates of
| more centralized systems.
|
| Check out the map and guide here:
|
| https://sensor.community/
|
| https://sensor.community/en/sensors/
| rplnt wrote:
| Looking at the map of EU, any idea why the hole in Czech
| Republic?
| dheera wrote:
| I've been using a Adafruit Plantower PMSA003I and it always
| reads 0 even if the AQI is 90 at my place.
|
| It basically always reads 0 if the AQI is anywhere under 200,
| and pretty useless.
|
| I wonder if there is a better I2C sensor that I could use?
| dahart wrote:
| I don't think using the brand new WHO guidelines is very fair.
| Not sure when it was released, but regardless this product was
| likely completely designed and manufactured before the WHO
| guidelines were published, just a few months ago.
|
| Also, Airnow.gov still has a published scale that is _worse_ than
| the IKEA product. https://www.airnow.gov/aqi/aqi-basics/. Green
| is 0-50, Yellow is 51-100, Orange 101-150, and Red 151-200.
| ahaucnx wrote:
| Airnow is using US AQI and not mg/m. US AQI 50 corresponds to
| approx. 12 mg/m.
| dahart wrote:
| Oh thank you, pre-coffee units fail on my part.
|
| So I'd guess most air sensors on the market aren't
| necessarily classifying their readings into green-good / red-
| bad, or at least come with a now-outdated chart. Are there
| sensors that have been released and/or updated to match the
| new guidelines already?
| punnerud wrote:
| Archived version (from today):
| https://web.archive.org/web/20211206144732/https://www.airgr...
| dheera wrote:
| I've been using a Adafruit Plantower PMSA003I and it always reads
| 0 even if the AQI is 90 at my place.
|
| It basically always reads 0 if the AQI is anywhere under 200, and
| pretty useless.
| prashnts wrote:
| I have a question since the author is around:
|
| My sensor was working fine for a few months. It's located near
| the area I smoke, so whenever I'm smoking it changes to red
| quickly. And after a few minutes (10 or so) it'd go back to
| green.
|
| But for past few weeks it's stuck at red. I disassembled it and
| cleaned the intake hole (which is covered with a fabric) and it
| worked after. However it went back to displaying red again all
| the time.
|
| So my question is whether this sensor needs frequent cleaning? If
| so what are the alternatives?
| renewiltord wrote:
| Out of curiosity, and with no judgment intended, what is the
| purpose of the air quality sensor if you are actively smoking?
| Is it a mechanism for you to determine whether the smoking is
| exposing other members of the household to second-hand smoke,
| etc.?
|
| I only ask because it seems to me (with no concrete research)
| that the smoking risk is much greater than generalized air
| quality risk.
| ahaucnx wrote:
| I don't really have much experience with the PM1006K in the
| Ikea sensor but it is not untypical that PM sensors can get
| "stuck" and showing high concentrations.
|
| Sometimes it helps to blow compressed air inside to push out
| any dust that might cover the optics but that also often does
| not help too much or only temporary.
| prashnts wrote:
| Thank you! I'll try that. Building an airgradient sensor is
| next in my list of projects!
| skybrian wrote:
| I've seen this and rebooting my Temtop sensor seems to help,
| sometimes.
| pnathan wrote:
| When I was looking into air quality a year or two ago, I realized
| that the color-coded "AQI" so popular are not precisely a
| scientific analysis, as they are a blend of different
| measurements, with cutoffs specified by committee. Different
| countries have different formulas for AQI. That doesn't make them
| wrong, but it makes them not a "gospel truth".
|
| I have a Dylos rigged up inside my apartment, feeding particle
| measurement data to a serial port, which stores the data on my
| own cloud. I don't bother with AQI.
| liversage wrote:
| Some trivia: 'Vindriktning' is 'wind direction' in Swedish.
| jerjerjer wrote:
| Anything proven and with a better sensor quality?
| ahaucnx wrote:
| Author here. I forgot to mention:
|
| With a Wemos D1 mini (ESP8266) MCU that costs around USD 2.00,
| you can pretty easily make the Vindriktning WiFi connected and
| get the data to a backend [1].
|
| You just need to solder three wires, and there is enough space
| within the enclosure to fit the D1 mini inside.
|
| This would then allow you to get the exact measurements and to
| better understand if the "green" is more on the lower end or the
| higher side.
|
| [1] https://github.com/Hypfer/esp8266-vindriktning-particle-
| sens...
| [deleted]
| pingec wrote:
| Are there any air quality devices that work well outdoors in
| all kind of weather?
| 404mm wrote:
| Hi, thanks for the article!
|
| Are there any non expensive sensors you could recommend? I care
| about the indoor air quality but it gets very pricey. I have
| Awair at home but it covers only one room and the unit runs
| $300 a piece :(
| ahaucnx wrote:
| I am not aware of a good and low-cost wifi connected sensor
| but as I mentioned it is relatively easy to build one
| yourself.
|
| If you don't want to buld yourself, there are a few
| relatively good non-connected PM 2.5 sensors for example the
| "SmartMi PM2.5 Air Quality Monitor" that I can recommend. It
| costs around USD 30 here in Asia.
| mellavora wrote:
| I'm a fan of the airgradient, they offer a very nice DIY. You
| can build a quality sensor for under $50.
|
| https://www.airgradient.com/diy/
|
| Components: Wemos D1 Mini USD 2.24
| Wemos OLED display USD 2.47 Plantower PMS5003 PM
| Sensor USD 13.89 Senseair S8 CO2 Sensor USD 28.00
| SHT30 or SHT31 Temperature and Humidity Sensor Module USD
| 2.55
|
| I think the lead article was posted by the founder of
| airgradient. I've had some email exchanges with him, he is
| supportive and helpful.
| geerlingguy wrote:
| I can also attest to the inexpensive simplicity (and decent
| reliability) of the AirGradient sensors.
| bobiny wrote:
| I like my Netatmo. I see that it costs $200 on Amazon for
| main module + you can connect 3 additional ones for other
| rooms -- they cost $86 each. It shows CO2 (notifies when it's
| high on smartphone), temperature, relative humidity and noise
| level.
| [deleted]
| ortusdux wrote:
| I've been looking at ordering a variety of environmental
| sensors from Seeed Studio's Grove line. They look
| approachable and affordable, but I cannot vouch for their
| quality.
|
| https://www.seeedstudio.com/Grove-Laser-PM2-5-Sensor-
| HM3301....
| tnorthcutt wrote:
| You might be interested in the author's DIY kits:
| https://www.airgradient.com/diy
| fossuser wrote:
| Not the OP, but I tried a bunch of these and wrote up details
| here: https://www.reddit.com/r/AirQuality/comments/ikf1ed/are
| _ther...
|
| Most of them (including the awair) are complete crap.
|
| I found one that seems okay and is also one of the cheaper
| ones.
|
| I use and like this one best:
| https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DHXQXGK/
|
| Simple screen with relevant details, no crappy 2.4ghz wifi,
| no crappy app, etc. it just works.
| noja wrote:
| That looks like the Eve Room
| https://www.evehome.com/en/eve-room
| 404mm wrote:
| Aqmd tested Awair and it came with really good results
| actually. I'm struggling to find the report online at the
| moment.
| fossuser wrote:
| It doesn't tell you AQI or PM2.5 so it's results may be
| consistent but are fairly useless.
|
| I'd be curious what report you saw, last I looked the
| consistency of the results wasn't even that great either.
| nitrogen wrote:
| Awair's phone app lists both AQI and PM2.5, and PM2.5 is
| available on the device itself by pressing buttons to
| change the display. Somewhat confusingly, the indoor AQI
| is on the Outdoor tab.
| Matrixik wrote:
| This one?: https://www.aqmd.gov/aq-
| spec/evaluations/summary-pm
| 404mm wrote:
| Unfortunately no, not this one. I also came across these
| but I recall a several page long reports for each device
| individually. Tested in controlled environment and
| compared with some professional $20k+ sensor. I wish I
| could deliver better than promises lol.
| ruffrey wrote:
| I've used this one [1] then ordered similar ones from Ali
| express after getting the Adafruit one working.
|
| 1. https://www.adafruit.com/product/3686?gclid=CjwKCAiAhreNBh
| AY...
| stavros wrote:
| I can second this one, I soldered four wires to connect it
| to an ESP8266 and flashed ESPhome and that was it, it's
| worked fine for months.
| jb1991 wrote:
| It would be great to hear some alternative suggestions for a
| consumer air quality meter that is accurate, reliable. I.e. are
| the AirThings products good? Or do you have any other
| recommendations?
| zibzab wrote:
| Are you recording sensors output?
|
| If the sensors have been calibrated in software, wouldn't you
| get the uncalibrated values?
| newman314 wrote:
| Given that the correlation is pretty good, I wonder if it's
| sufficient to just add a compensating factor to get a better
| sense of air quality.
| balaji1 wrote:
| Should we just consider buying an air purifier?
|
| Currently in Bay Area where air outside seems good but these
| apartments seem poorly ventilated, old fixtures, old floors,
| lots of electronics, etc.
| namdnay wrote:
| Nice article! One small typo:
|
| > It can be seen that all three sensors correlate very well but
| that the Vindriktning only shows about 65% of the PM2.5 values
| of the other two sensors and thus seems to considerably
| _understate the air quality_.
|
| I think here you mean "overstate the air quality" right? Or
| "understate the air pollution"
| errcorrectcode wrote:
| Nope, just nope. Ikea: purveyors of chemical-laden flat packs and
| cheap, unrepairable items that don't last. PMS5003 modules are
| much better (PM1, 2.5, and 10) and only cost $20. PM1 and 2.5 are
| far more damaging to health than PM10.
| Swenrekcah wrote:
| Almost all furniture I've ever owned has been IKEA. With very
| few exceptions they have all been very durable. Repairability
| is excellent because everything is designed to be taken apart
| by amateurs and spare parts are easily found. They are also
| easy when moving because they can so easily be taken apart.
| errcorrectcode wrote:
| It wouldn't need spare parts if it didn't break. "Very
| durable" compared to what since you have no experience with
| anything else? Not solid wood furniture.
|
| A table that weighs 8 lbs and costs 10 dollars should only be
| used on a Hollywood set as breakaway furniture for safety.
|
| You sound like you're rationalizing a religious tribe rather
| than making a rational argument.
| avh02 wrote:
| > It wouldn't need spare parts if it didn't break
|
| I guess you've never lost a single screw in your life.
| errcorrectcode wrote:
| Cheap shot. Maybe you shouldn't be commenting today.
| [deleted]
| maltalex wrote:
| > You sound like you're rationalizing a religious tribe
| rather than making a rational argument.
|
| I can't believe that I find myself defending Ikea on HN,
| but... what?
|
| The parent's argument is very rational - in their
| experience products have been durable, and the
| repairability high for obvious reasons. What's religious
| about that?
|
| I owned several pieces of Ikea furniture myself, and some
| were well made out of solid materials. Others were not.
| Unsurprisingly, the material quality was strongly
| correlated with the price of the item.
| errcorrectcode wrote:
| Myopia from limited experience is absurdly arrogant.
|
| I have experience with O'Sullivan, IKEA, and fine
| furniture like Stickley. You can't sand or paint sawdust
| when it crumbles. If it gets wet, it's ruined. Fine
| furniture often appreciates in value, while pressed dust
| doesn't, falls apart when disassembled, and cannot be
| economically repaired.
| slantyyz wrote:
| > falls apart when disassembled
|
| Funny, in the 30+ years that I've had IKEA furniture,
| I've moved several times. That you can disassemble IKEA
| furniture is a benefit when moving, and I've had no
| issues disassembling and reassembling multiple times.
| slantyyz wrote:
| > You sound like you're rationalizing a religious tribe
| rather than making a rational argument.
|
| So do you, actually.
|
| IKEA has products of varying price points. Yeah some of the
| cheap stuff might be pretty bad. Having said that, I have
| family members with IKEA furniture that is now around 30
| years old without issues.
|
| I have expensive solid wood furniture as well as IKEA
| furniture. Some of my own IKEA pieces that I bought after
| finishing uni have lasted 30 years and are still in use. I
| don't think I've thrown any IKEA furniture out, only passed
| them on to other people.
| errcorrectcode wrote:
| You're appear to be seeking conflict with a lame,
| baseless, personal attack because you are also a part of
| that cult and can't handle criticism.
|
| 30 years is nothing. I have 200 year old solid wood
| furniture. I seriously doubt anything made from sawdust
| will ever last that long.
|
| I hope you and your family enjoy your IKEA decor.
| slantyyz wrote:
| > You're appear to be seeking conflict with a lame,
| baseless, personal attack because you are also a part of
| that cult and can't handle criticism.
|
| Um, ok. I guess you got me there.
|
| > 30 years is nothing. I have 200 year old solid wood
| furniture. I seriously doubt anything made from sawdust
| will ever last that long.
|
| Ok, good for you then? I don't need anything to last 200
| years, but I wouldn't be surprised if my sawdust
| furniture lasts longer than me, since I take pretty good
| care of my furniture.
|
| > I hope you and your family enjoy your IKEA decor.
|
| Yep.
| hedora wrote:
| Ikea has multiple price tiers (e.g. "good", better, best). The
| bottom tier is basically disposable dorm furniture, which is
| likely to be ruined/tossed anyway. Move up a tier if you want
| something that's cheaper than other alternatives and lasts.
|
| The only thing I've found that competes with their mid tier is
| used furniture. (Which is obviously better for the environment
| than buying new.)
| mnw21cam wrote:
| I have a folding dining table from ikea. It's %&(*! heavy,
| surprisingly so for a small table, and is solid wood. It has
| already lasted 15 years and I can see it lasting another 100.
|
| Agreed, ikea sells some flimsy stuff, but they also sell some
| really solid stuff.
| robin_reala wrote:
| [Disclaimer: IKEA employee]
|
| We've got buy back / resale programmes globally, and the US
| trialled it a couple of months ago. I'd expect to see this
| expand over time.
|
| https://www.ikea.com/us/en/newsroom/corporate-news/ikea-
| us-h...
| hedora wrote:
| Oh wow, that's great! The less resources Ikea consumes, the
| better.
|
| However, I was referring to Craigslist "free" listings and
| antique shops. I suspect those will continue to win out on
| price or craftsmanship over most stuff Ikea sells. It's
| hard to beat items that are free and/or hand-crafted from
| old growth hardwood.
|
| Our house is split roughly evenly between free stuff,
| antiques, and ikea stuff.
| handrous wrote:
| I can only assume people who complain about Ikea--price,
| assembly instructions, quality, et c.--have never experienced
| other flat-pack furniture, like what Wal-Mart or Target
| stock, which is worse on _all_ of those measures. Or most
| bulky, ugly, fake-fancy big box furniture, even not flat-
| packed.
|
| I can only beat them on quality-per-dollar by going used, as
| you note--mid-century-modern used furniture is expensive (and
| is what a lot of Ikea stuff is designed after) but anything
| earlier or later is usually very cheap.
|
| Brands that consistently provide better quality for non-flat-
| pack furniture tend to be _way_ more expensive than Ikea,
| outside the range of what most normal folks are even
| considering.
|
| And yeah, it's true that their cheapest tier is practically
| disposable, but it's hard to complain when an end table costs
| $20 or whatever. Of course it's not gonna last decades, at
| that price.
| stdbrouw wrote:
| The choice to display anything under 35 mg/m3 as "good" does not
| seem unreasonable at first glance. Indoor PM2.5 can often be
| higher than outdoor so that the yearly average will be pushed
| down by time spent outside and there is no need to have <5 mg/m3
| inside too. Also, by the author's admission the unit also
| measures particles larger than PM2.5 which are less harmful.
| There's no point in having a unit that will flash orange or red
| for almost everyone almost all of the time.
| ahaucnx wrote:
| As I mentioned in the article it really depends on the length
| of the exposure and how you use the sensor.
|
| Yes in many places in Europe or North America, the outdoor air
| quality is most of the time good.
|
| However -unfortunately- there are also many places where the
| outdoor air quality is very unhealthy most year round and then
| an annual exposure to 35 mg/m3 vs 5 mg/m3 makes a big
| difference.
| aaron695 wrote:
| > the outdoor air quality is most of the time good.
|
| This is the point, knowing when it's bad so you can change
| behaviour?
|
| When does it spike in a forest? You'd guess when it's windy?
| But is it seasonal? Does dust matter more the pollen, I think
| pollen is more PM 10. Salt from the sea breeze is bad
| (PM2.5), how does that mix with leaf matter in Fall?
|
| > Indoor PM2.5 can often be higher than outdoor so that the
| yearly average will be pushed down by time spent outside and
| there is no need to have <5 mg/m3 inside too.
|
| This line form OP is totally incorrect.
|
| Indoors should be less than outdoors, unless you have a fire
| or smoke indoors.
|
| And why does "yearly average" matter? Smoking cigarettes
| (which is exactly the same as what we are talking about) is
| not about a "yearly average".
| srg0 wrote:
| I think it was a conscious design decision to reduce false
| alarm rate. Assuming that this low cost device can be/become
| very inaccurate, then the designers had two choices:
|
| 1) Report all alarms as detected. Eventually, the device
| becomes a red LED which users learn to ignore.
|
| 2) Report a problem when the device is reasonably sure there is
| a problem. Green light does not necessarily mean that the air
| quality is good, but when the LED becomes red, it should be
| taken seriously.
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