[HN Gopher] Sarco suicide capsule 'passes legal review' in Switz...
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Sarco suicide capsule 'passes legal review' in Switzerland
Author : gigglesupstairs
Score : 155 points
Date : 2021-12-05 17:16 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.swissinfo.ch)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.swissinfo.ch)
| jasonpeacock wrote:
| Tangentially, this is my frustration with the death penalty -
| it's way too complicated & error-prone when much simpler,
| reliable, and humane methods are available like this.
|
| Humans are easy to kill, and it's not hard to do so humanely.
|
| (Yes, there are many other problems with the death penalty
| besides the technical execution of it, but you'd think we could
| at least do that part right.)
| 71a54xd wrote:
| Not to be grim, this is a very "adult" subject that most adults
| have a hard time discussing.
|
| After seeing friends and family struggle with severe injury /
| deformities and Alzheimer's / mental decline (cancer with
| grueling treatment as well) - I can as a currently happy and
| healthy person say that I would likely use some form of firearm
| to end my life. It's quick, hard to mess up and above all my
| right as a human being.
|
| I generally dislike political spats regarding labor /
| "obligations" to society in general - but I think the most
| sacred right is the right to decide whether you contribute by
| living. Both capitalism and socialism demonize the idea of
| suicide because each needs some form of a worker and the
| pursuit of a certain constructed life to work properly.
| Something that I'll never understand and that I believe is more
| morally wrong is family deciding that someone should "get over"
| their own choice to no longer live. In my opinion nothing is
| more selfish and less respectful of what life should mean to an
| individual.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > hard to mess up
|
| I think it depends a bit on technique and choice of firearm.
| Some people foolishly put a gun in their mouth and assume it
| will definitely kill. But it's entirely possible to miss the
| brainstem and just blow off the side of your face instead.
| Now you are alive but mangled.
|
| Something like a shotgun is probably a bit harder to screw
| up.
|
| But personally I'm far too chickenshit to use a firearm. I'd
| probably try to find someone who'd sell me fentanyl, were I
| interested in terminating my own existence. At the moment,
| however, I'm far more likely to suffer an existential crisis
| and so I've zero desire to answer life's greatest question
| any sooner than strictly necessary.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| And here I am in France, where the closest thing to a gun I
| can get legally is a nail gun.
| rrdharan wrote:
| > hard to mess up
|
| I was under the impression it was in fact not that hard at
| all to mess up.
|
| Though in fact, seems like other methods are indeed likely
| "worse" in terms of achieving the intended outcome:
|
| https://www.medpagetoday.com/psychiatry/generalpsychiatry/83.
| ..
| meepmorp wrote:
| Yeah, with all the problems the US has had acquiring an
| appropriate cocktail of drugs for lethal injections over the
| last few years, you'd think someone would look into this kind
| of thing. Nitrogen is super easy to get.
| sschueller wrote:
| Or just carbon monoxide. The thing people are so paranoid
| over in their homes because it is a silent killer.
| jasonhansel wrote:
| Needless to say, bringing back gas chambers is a hard sell.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| Isn't Arizona planning to start executions in gas chambers
| again using Zyklon B?
| meepmorp wrote:
| They've always used hydrogen cyanide (HCN) gas, typically
| produced from potassium cyanide pellets dropped into
| hydrochloric acid. Zyklon B is just HCN.
|
| Edit: not HCl, H2SO4.
| [deleted]
| jack_riminton wrote:
| Some states are experimenting with Nitrogen
|
| Article from NYTimes from 2018: https://web.archive.org/web/2
| 0210704140110/https://www.nytim...
| skocznymroczny wrote:
| I am not up to date with US lethal injection, but weren't the
| changes in lethal injections in the US "yeah, it's still a
| painful death, but we added muscle relaxants so it looks
| peaceful on the outside and acceptable to the public?"
| meepmorp wrote:
| I think there's always been a paralytic involved. The idea
| was to knock the person out with a barbiturate, then stop
| the breathing with the muscle relaxant, and finally stop
| the heart with a bolus of potassium chloride.
|
| It's not so much to pretend it's peaceful, as it's a error
| in how the drugs are administered and availability of
| appropriate drugs.
| jasonpeacock wrote:
| This is exactly my point - why do something so
| complicated when many people die quietly in their homes
| from CO poisoning? Let's just setup a CO poisoning
| chamber to do the same thing.
|
| Or nitrogen as the article describes. Or a fatal overdose
| of a pleasant drug like morphine?
|
| Even the guillotine is quite humane, though gory.
| gambiting wrote:
| I never understood it either - there must be some crazy
| reason though.
| kergonath wrote:
| Sadism, mostly. The electric chair was painful enough but
| too picturesque, which makes it easy to rally against.
| The injections solve that problem whilst still inflicting
| immense pain. Which is supposed to be good, because these
| damn criminals had it coming. Or something.
| [deleted]
| alice-i-cecile wrote:
| Many argue that the deliberate cruelty is the point. Also
| stigma around gas chambers.
| hprotagonist wrote:
| The changes are of the form that nearly every legit
| manufacturer of the cocktail refuses to produce it for the
| purposes of capital punishment.
|
| https://www.npr.org/2015/03/11/392375383/states-scramble-
| to-...
| Jiro wrote:
| Any time someone tries a new method of execution, activists
| pounce on it and take it to court, making any new method
| expensive because of court costs and tied up in years of cases.
| The only methods of execution that can't be filibustered in
| this way are methods where courts have specifically ruled in
| the past that the method is okay. That's why execution is
| limited to specific methods, and why we're not going to use
| carbon monoxide or nitrogen.
|
| Personally, I'd prefer that if the extra suffering caused by a
| method of execution is less than the suffering caused by, for
| instance, a week in jail, we should ignore the suffering and
| permit use of the method.
| deegles wrote:
| Depending on the jail you use as a baseline, that might be a
| scary way to die.
| aaron695 wrote:
| This is 100% because of Futurama.
|
| But we'll ignore that?
|
| Sure it's a funny meme, and I'm happy for memes to become real
| even at the cost of human lives, 200 million dollar movies also
| cost a lot of lives.
|
| But I'm not going to pretend I'm stupid just so we as a species
| can meme off a cartoon show without mentioning it. Own it. It ok
| it's off Futurama and a lot of people love Futurama and it was
| originally dystopian. We also love dystopian, probably more for
| other people though.
|
| FYI Nitschke's The Deliverance Machine has been used legally
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_device you could see it
| at art galleries. Wiki says the British Science Museum has the
| one that was used on people.
| errcorrectcode wrote:
| For a second, I thought "capsule" meant "pill." "Pod" would've
| been a better word.
|
| Obligatory:
|
| Does it have "quick and painless", "slow and horrible", and
| "clumsy bludgeoning" settings?
|
| What do they do with the bodies?
| jfrunyon wrote:
| Or "booth" (shoutout to Futurama) ;)
| mcguire wrote:
| Given that conceivably you could print the pod yourself, unless
| the AI automatically notifies someone no one would know so you
| would sit in a pod full of nitrogen until someone found you.
| errcorrectcode wrote:
| It seems a little impractical to print yourself given the
| size of the parts.
|
| This idea has too many moving components, I don't think it's
| a good idea.
|
| There are already companies who sell dual-use nitrogen
| equipment for home brewing and "home brewing."
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| What actually matters is the nitrogen, not the pod.
| errcorrectcode wrote:
| It would be better to already have arrangements pre-paid
| (Edit: in the US, it's called "pre-need" and can save 80-90%
| of the costs by buying decades before), and the coroner and
| the mortician notified. Having someone "find" you isn't a
| very classy way to go out.
| deadalus wrote:
| Hoping this pill makes it to the Darknet Markets, I want to die
| but I don't want to experience pain. I just want a painless exit
| from this world from where I find no meaning or joy.
| bogwog wrote:
| If you click the link you'll see a picture of it. It's not a
| pill, it's a giant capsule you step into.
|
| Also, I don't know you, but I'm confident that dying is the
| wrong solution to whatever problems you're having.
| gregoryl wrote:
| Consider: When you share a profoundly personal feeling, and a
| stranger openly states "I know nothing about you or your
| situation, but you're wrong".
| meepmorp wrote:
| You should take a minute to skim the article.
| timwaagh wrote:
| I'm sure there's plenty on there that can kill you already. But
| before you go maybe try a vacation in Thailand or something.
| schroeding wrote:
| It's not a pill, but a "capsule" in the "Japanese Capsule
| Hotel" sense.
|
| I feel you. I'm the same, honestly.
|
| That's probably the biggest danger of these "safe", "easy"
| suicide methods - some people just don't commit suicide because
| they are too scared of a cruel death, not because they are
| attached to life. Stuff like this will lower the probability of
| such a cruel death, making suicide less scary, raising the
| probability of pulling though with it. Not an easy topic.
|
| But I really hope you can find something in life before you do
| it, so you don't have to do it ^^'
| [deleted]
| smeej wrote:
| From someone who's felt that way before, I strongly recommend
| going searching for meaning or joy instead, or inventing your
| own meaning or joy if you can't find anybody else's idea that
| does it for you.
|
| Not saying it'll be easy, or even promising it'll work.
|
| I'm just saying I'm glad I gave it a shot. 10/10 would
| recommend. YMMV.
| hliyan wrote:
| For a moment, the catchy trade name and the mention of 3D
| printing made me worry that this was a startup. Thankfully, Exit
| International is a non-profit [1]. Imagine if this had been a
| commercial endeavor: what would one have to resort to, to
| increase revenue?
|
| https://www.exitinternational.net/about-exit/history/
| sokoloff wrote:
| > what would one have to resort to, to increase revenue?
|
| Well, subscriptions are out...
| garaetjjte wrote:
| Uh...
|
| >Our aim is to develop an artificial intelligence screening
| system to establish the person's mental capacity. Naturally
| there is a lot of scepticism, especially on the part of
| psychiatrists. But our original conceptual idea is that the
| person would do an online test and receive a code to access the
| Sarco.
| 1f60c wrote:
| "Before we continue with this assisted suicide, I'd like to
| thank our sponsor NordVPN"
| questiondev wrote:
| my anxiety is getting the best of me whenever i see this type of
| stuff i always think of how a state can abuse it to get rid of
| people legally and use an excuse. but then again i am extremely
| distrusting of new "progress" in general.
| drakonka wrote:
| I'm glad more options for a peaceful chosen death are becoming
| available.
|
| Between a sudden, unexpected death and dying in pain from a
| progressive disease, my "ideal" way to die would be chosen death
| before a progressive disease becomes bad enough to cross some
| personal threshold of suffering.
|
| At the same time, I plan to do whatever I reasonably can to
| prolong my life (and its quality) for as long as possible.
|
| Hopefully by the time this becomes relevant more options like
| this capsule and others will be readily available.
|
| Having said that, his quote about an AI giving you permission to
| die seems a bit preposterous. The actual method of death he
| described sounds reasonable, but I don't know that I'd want a
| machine to permit me to end my own life. Not that having to get a
| doctor's permission sounds any better. Ideally, nobody should
| have a say over a life but the individual themselves. I recognize
| in saying this though that it isn't really that simple, and that
| there are complex nuances with potential undue influence family
| members or others surrounding a person can have in the situation.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| Yup. There are a lot of ways to die that are worse than dying.
| Why bother with the pod, though? A big plastic bag and a tank
| of nitrogen can do the same thing.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| > my "ideal" way to die would be chosen death before a
| progressive disease becomes bad enough to cross some personal
| threshold of suffering.
|
| It is a long time I wish there was some kind of deice you can
| implant in your body that would release poison when not
| responding to some kind of regular request. This would at least
| solve neurological cases (either degenerative, or alive in a
| coma which is terrifying, or vegetative state)
| ehPReth wrote:
| What's/where's the best "available now" service that takes
| foreigners?
| cadence- wrote:
| Wow, even better looking than this: https://i.kym-
| cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/023/876/sui...
|
| More seriously, I like it. I'm always petrified of dying a slow
| and painful death from some disease that cannot be cured. I would
| much rather just use this and be done with it.
| iso1210 wrote:
| Go parachuting
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| If you're in good enough shape to go parachuting it's
| unlikely you're in bad enough shape that suicide is a sane
| answer.
| cambaceres wrote:
| I wonder how they test these.
| ag8 wrote:
| > Our aim is to develop an artificial intelligence screening
| system to establish the person's mental capacity.
|
| I'd like to see how that works!
| criddell wrote:
| I can imagine it getting into a catch-22 scenario where wanting
| to die is considered a sign of mental illness and mentally ill
| people are excluded from using the suicide machine.
| tomjen3 wrote:
| Then it wouldn't been AI, it would just be the current
| medical system.
| User23 wrote:
| It's neat that Robert Chambers predicted this well over a century
| ago in _The King in Yellow_.
| analog31 wrote:
| Socrates drank hemlock.
| User23 wrote:
| While Plato presents it as a principled stand, it remains
| that Socrate's death was the result of a judicial conviction
| and thus isn't exactly a voluntary suicide.
| gigglesupstairs wrote:
| > A 3D-printed capsule, destined for use in assisted suicide, may
| legally be operated in Switzerland, according to advice obtained
| by Exit International, the organisation that developed the
| 'Sarco' machine.
|
| > It's a 3-D printed capsule, activated from the inside by the
| person intending to die. The machine can be towed anywhere for
| the death. It can be in an idyllic outdoor setting or in the
| premises of an assisted suicide organisation, for example.
|
| > The person will get into the capsule and lie down. It's very
| comfortable. They will be asked a number of questions and when
| they have answered, they may press the button inside the capsule
| activating the mechanism in their own time.
|
| > The capsule is sitting on a piece of equipment that will flood
| the interior with nitrogen, rapidly reducing the oxygen level to
| 1 per cent from 21 per cent. The person will feel a little
| disoriented and may feel slightly euphoric before they lose
| consciousness. The whole thing takes about 30 seconds. Death
| takes place through hypoxia and hypocapnia, oxygen and carbon
| dioxide deprivation, respectively. There is no panic, no choking
| feeling.
| annetipasto wrote:
| this feels like a phenomenal advancement on this front. now if
| only I could read about it without slipping into existential
| panic...
| DenisM wrote:
| Yeah, there is something claustrophobic about this
| description.
| derbOac wrote:
| FWIW, this is just automating something that has been in use
| for some time. The person interviewed has a book and
| organization advocating for this in various forms for some
| time.
| jonnybgood wrote:
| What can a person do if they change their mind? I'm assuming it
| can be stopped. I think about those who jumped from the Golden
| Gate and survived. Them changing their mind after jumping.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Presumably there's a "cancel" button, for if you change your
| mind before you lose consciousness.
| Biganon wrote:
| And now due to the prolonged hypoxia, you're a vegetable.
| hatesinterviews wrote:
| No. If you are still conscious (it takes <30 seconds
| before losing consciousness) then you haven't experienced
| sufficient oxygen deprivation to have severe permanent
| side effects. Brain death takes several minutes of
| sustained hypoxia. If you're unconscious then obviously
| there's no cancelling by your own will.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| I think if you're still conscious enough to press a
| cancel button, you'd be OK in that regard (but I'm not an
| expert on the subject, to be sure).
| rklaehn wrote:
| Suicide capsules? Reminds me of this short story:
|
| https://zerohplovecraft.wordpress.com/2019/09/28/the-green-n...
| krisoft wrote:
| I think this device is designed to provoke a conversation rather
| than to solve the problem it says it sets out to solve. There is
| no reason it has to look like a futuristic coffin. Most people
| breath only through their nostrils and mouth. A simple mask could
| do the same job this huge contraption is sets out to do. Except
| you couldn't exhibit a scuba mask hooked up to a nitrogen tank in
| a museum. It wouldn't have the same visual impact and scifi
| otherworldlyness.
| jsn wrote:
| Yeah, this is seriously overengineered. A cellophane hood with
| elastic collar and a nitrogen nasal cannula is all it takes.
| majkinetor wrote:
| That must be exactly how most people envision their death:
| with cellophane hood and elastic collar.
| xwdv wrote:
| The next step for such a machine IMO is something that can
| automatically cremate the corpse inside the machine and vacuum
| the ashes, dispensing them into either a canister or into some
| kind of plumbing network for scattering them high into the air
| where the wind can carry them.
| mleonhard wrote:
| Immediate cremation would reduce cost. It would also save loved
| ones from seeing or dealing with the corpse. The blue tinted
| windows prevent attendees from seeing the body's color change.
|
| My mother died after months of agony from cancer. The mortuary
| staff came and put the corpse in a black plastic bag and
| wheeled it out of the house on a stretcher. They used an
| extremely pungent chemical to disinfect the bed. The chemical
| smell filled the house. At the funeral, I carefully avoided
| looking at the corpse. I'm thankful that, in my last memories
| of her, she was alive and showing me tenderness.
|
| I think she and all of us involved would have been better off
| if she could have used a machine like this several weeks
| earlier. We could have said goodbye, she would push the button,
| and then it would be over.
|
| EDIT: The machine could refrigerate/freeze/preserve the corpse
| for ceremonies, until burial/cremation.
|
| For burial, the pod could be in two parts, the top part is a
| casket for burial and the bottom part holds the gas delivery
| system and refrigerator. They could disconnect and bury the
| casket without ever opening it. This would eliminate the
| expensive embalming process. It would also reduce the risk of
| disease transmission from handling the corpse.
|
| This could be useful for regular anticipated deaths, too. The
| patient could spend their last week or so in the pod bed. What
| would be the psychological impact of that on the patient and
| the loved ones? I think it could be a positive impact for most
| people.
| scruple wrote:
| But weed is still illegal over there, right?
| fetzu wrote:
| Because weed goes hand-in-hand with assisted suicide how?
|
| Not illegal, CBD/low THC (-1%) cannabis has been legal for a
| while, and << weed >> can be prescribed medically.
| bserge wrote:
| High quality exit bag lol. Actually, I'm surprised no one sells
| readymade suicide kits.
|
| A well made exit bag, or a capsule like this, would be totally
| legal pretty much anywhere.
|
| Hmm, good idea for a business! If I don't use it first :D
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| " There is no panic, no choking feeling. "
|
| I'm amazed the author of the article was able to determine this.
| May they rest in peace.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| The panic/choking feeling comes from a buildup of CO2 in the
| air and body, not lack of oxygen. We know from
| experiments/accidents that when CO2 saturation does not happen,
| people don't feel like they are choking or can't breath even if
| they are not getting any oxygen.
| DominikPeters wrote:
| The reaction to nitrogen is well-understood:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert_gas_asphyxiation
| nosianu wrote:
| Some comments mentioned that some people who attempted to use
| nitrogen had problems. According to the Wikipedia a fast
| switch to breathing a nitrogen and no oxygen atmosphere has
| "no symptoms at all", but when it happens slowly what happens
| to people varies:
|
| > _a slow decrease in oxygen breathing gas content has
| effects which are quite variable.[5] By contrast, suddenly
| breathing pure inert gas causes oxygen levels in the blood to
| fall precipitously, and may lead to unconsciousness in only a
| few breaths, with no symptoms at all.[3]_
|
| They cite scuba diving rebreather accidents as one source for
| experiences. I think there should be people to tell the tale
| if they got rescued, "never dive alone", after all, and ships
| for divers should be equipped for emergencies. I guess other
| than observation of someone committing suicide with this
| method we may actually have personal experience stories.
|
| I looked into this when I had a huge health scare that
| changed my life (it "only" was heavy metal poisoning and
| after lots of chelators I'm doing very well, better than
| before), and nitrogen was what I considered because I saw a
| chance to actually get my hands on some, compared to drugs.
| Bad thoughts, but I'll still keep it in mind in case I ever
| need it. Living through all the heavy metal issues was bad
| enough but at least I had hope. If it's similar or worse
| problems or even pain with no hope I don't want to have to
| endure.
| charles_f wrote:
| > A 3D-printed capsule
|
| How is the 3d printing of any relevance? Is as relevant a claim
| as "a lipo powered capsule" or "a raspberry pi controlled
| capsule"
| prirun wrote:
| This seems like way too much bother, and it looks expensive. I've
| read the same thing can be done with a plastic bag over the head
| and helium gas (maybe nitrogen works just as well).
|
| I still believe people should be allowed to have a safe,
| painless, unmessy death if they want it, for whatever reason. I
| don't understand why it's such a controversy. Why does a person
| who wants to leave have to resort to messy, violent methods? Our
| pets have more access to humane ways to die because of bad
| situations, than humans.
| DantesKite wrote:
| It cannot be done so easily.
|
| Your body has a thousand instincts inside trying to preserve
| itself.
|
| Many of these people who try asphyxiating themselves end up
| ripping the bag even after they go unconscious. And if you
| fail, you risk long-term brain damage.
|
| Trying to kill yourself is like trying to kick a the corner of
| a concrete wall with your shin as hard as possible. You have to
| override a lot of self-preservation instincts. It's not like
| you suddenly become immune to pain, loss, and fear.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| Asphyxiating without a replacement gas does trigger your body
| to try to fight it.
|
| However, when you use enough replacement gas (helium or
| nitrogen will do) the body won't fight it because it's the
| buildup of CO2 that's the trigger, not the lack of oxygen. I
| do agree brain damage can happen from a failure.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > I've read the same thing can be done with a plastic bag over
| the head and helium gas (maybe nitrogen works just as well).
|
| My older brother attempted suicide a few years ago and he tried
| to asphyxiate himself using nitrogen. When he was found, he was
| vomiting all over himself. Some part of his plan failed to
| work, obviously. So I don't know that I'd assume it's a trivial
| exercise to make a working setup on your own.
| asdfasgasdgasdg wrote:
| I'm sorry that happened to your brother, and I hope things
| are better for him now.
|
| I imagine there are probably approaches with complexity
| between "plastic bag" and "lie-in 3d printed
| electromechanical apparatus" that would be still be reliable.
| Particularly, I would imagine a device that seals around the
| neck but otherwise operates by the same principle would be a
| lot cheaper and more environmentally friendly to produce. You
| would have a regulated, switchable input, one arm of which
| would be the atmosphere and the other arm of which would be a
| pure nitrogen supply. And then a check valve for output.
|
| I hope never to have to use such a device myself . . . dying
| peacefully in my sleep would be the ideal, like my
| grandfather did, or of a sudden stroke like my other
| grandmother and grandfather. But if it comes to pass that I
| am dying of a painful and debilitating disease, I hope that
| by then a device like this is easily obtainable.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > I'm sorry that happened to your brother, and I hope
| things are better for him now.
|
| Yep, that unfortunate time of his life has passed and he is
| in a much better place. Found someone who helps keep him
| grounded mentally. Finally qualifies for social security so
| he isn't struggling just to find a roof to live under.
| Luckily he was an engineer for many years and so his social
| security payment isn't half bad. He's going to be okay now,
| and for that I'm grateful.
|
| I agree with your sentiments. I'm glad that I live in
| Oregon, so we do have assisted suicide as an option. The
| law makes it somewhat difficult, IMO, but in practice the
| rules seem to get bent. My father died with assistance a
| few years back when he had terminal kidney disease. Two
| nurses came to the house and prepared the pills for him by
| converting them into a liquid he could drink, they even
| helped him hold it. He'd have had difficulty doing that
| himself, so I'm grateful they were willing to help. I don't
| _think_ the law allows for that much assistance, but maybe
| I 'm wrong.
|
| In lieu of euthanasia, I'll pin my hopes on opiates, I
| guess. A friend of mine passed away about a week ago
| (cancer) and I had the opportunity to talk with him about
| three weeks ago -- he was on a significant dose (but not
| quite lethal) of fentanyl, and he said he had zero pain.
| They were willing to crank the dose up to whatever it takes
| -- this seems normal when hospice is involved. No worries
| about anyone getting addicted. And if the patient
| inadvertently dies a little early, nobody asks any
| questions.
| bjt2n3904 wrote:
| Is suffering a valid reason to end your own life? How much
| suffering is the threshold where suicide is "medically
| necessary"? How can it be quantified, what are the units? Does
| mental anguish count, or only physical suffering? What about
| existential suffering?
|
| This isn't a treatment, and it's certainly not compassionate.
| Joni Eareckson-Tada is a testament to the wonderful life that can
| be lived in spite of suffering, and she has much to say on it
| that is worth a listen.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| You have no way to quantify the suffering without having been
| there or at least seen the suffering of someone who has. I
| don't believe the form of the suffering matters, only the
| untreatability of whatever is causing the suffering. It has to
| come down to the person--at what point do they feel the
| suffering is too much, that whatever remaining life they have
| isn't worth it. Everyone is going to draw the line at a
| different place and I don't believe there is a right or wrong.
|
| I dislike not having the doctors involved, though--many people
| won't know if there's something that can be done or not.
| f6v wrote:
| You remind me of people who talk about vaccination without any
| knowledge of immunology. Don't you think the countries that
| have legalized assisted suicide have already devised methods
| for quantifying suffering? You just have to spend a load of
| time to study their frameworks.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| No, they haven't--because it can't be quantified, nor would
| it do any good if it could be. The patient decides what's too
| much.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| > Is suffering a valid reason to end your own life?
|
| Yes.
|
| > How much suffering is the threshold where suicide is
| "medically necessary"?
|
| When I say so.
|
| > How can it be quantified, what are the units?
|
| 1 unit of my will to do so.
|
| > Does mental anguish count, or only physical suffering?
|
| Anything I feel to be.
|
| > What about existential suffering?
|
| This is everyone's choice.
|
| > This isn't a treatment, and it's certainly not compassionate
|
| Have you had anyone close to you trying to end their life and
| you were helpless because _someone else_ said no?
|
| If you did and still think that people should suffer no matter
| what you should seriously rethink this.
|
| If you did not then get to a palliative ward in a hospital and
| discuss with people.
|
| Seriously - all these discussions from people who are either
| into religion or some books and did not experience the problem
| themselves is exasperating.
| [deleted]
| owlbynight wrote:
| Why does someone else's threshold for anguish have anything to
| do with you?
| vmception wrote:
| > His family sees it differently. His mother begs. "I want you to
| live no matter what." But that ignores his pain and his dignity,
| Yoshi says.
|
| This is my observation of suicide hotlines and ambiguous generic
| anti-suicide advice.
|
| It seems this conversation is so immature, patronizing and
| invalidating.
|
| I haven't found people able to articulate their thoughts on the
| matter as they just invalidate my comments on social media
| platforms until they are no longer visible.
|
| Do things compatible with self-preservation like me, or don't.
| mcguire wrote:
| Only something like 10% of suicides are related to chronic or
| terminal illnesses. One could reasonably assume that most of
| the rest are suffering from mental illnesses.
| oxfeed65261 wrote:
| Depression is a chronic, and sometimes terminal, illness.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| And how many are that aren't really counted as medical? I
| know one medical suicide--she never went to the doctor about
| what drove her to suicide. She didn't have all that long to
| live anyway and she perfectly well knew a broken hip meant
| she would never leave bed again.
| vmception wrote:
| Which means what about the messaging, to you.
| LandR wrote:
| It doesn't make their experience or suffering invalid.
|
| If we are to allow suicide for chronic physical pain, then
| why not for chronic mental pain?
| guilhas wrote:
| Imagine next year, besides covid vaccines governments, will also
| be able to mandate suicide pills to save the planet
| fetzu wrote:
| I wouldn't worry too much, it sounds like gouvernements are not
| even able to enforce the << read the article >> rule yet; son
| you probably still have some time ahead of you.
| guilhas wrote:
| The same was said about the vaccine mandates
| throw03172019 wrote:
| I wouldn't want to be on the QA team here.
| sarsway wrote:
| I heard they have a huge churn rate
| thejackgoode wrote:
| works on my machine
| can16358p wrote:
| They might just test on production.
| [deleted]
| SavantIdiot wrote:
| It's an interesting new method: hypoxia via nitrogen. I'd prefer
| this to the drinkable concoctions that put you to sleep after a
| brief panic of thirst.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| It's not new. It's just there isn't a consumer use for nitrogen
| so it's harder to obtain. Helium has a consumer market in
| inflating balloons, though. It occurs to me that argon would
| also work although there isn't a lot of consumer market.
| bmmayer1 wrote:
| Fascinating. It seems interesting that far more innovation has
| occurred in the service of corporal punishment (from the torture
| devices of the middle ages to the guillotine to lethal injection)
| than in the service of suicide (arguably cyanide tablets?).
| MeteorMarc wrote:
| Let,s call this procedure euthanasia instead of suicide.
| codetrotter wrote:
| I like the term suicide, because they allow the person whose
| life it is about do it themselves with a button.
|
| Reminds me of the Suicide Booths from Futurama.
| https://futurama.fandom.com/wiki/Suicide_Booth
| meepmorp wrote:
| This is literally suicide, as the person within the capsule
| triggers the thing that kills them. In that way, it's no
| different than pills or a gun.
| sprucevoid wrote:
| I suspect MeteorMarc meant 'euthanasia' in the philosophy
| sense of a death that is (a1) rationally planned over a
| period of time and (b1) in the dying persons overall
| interest. Which can be contrasted with 'suicide' in a sense
| commonly used in suicide prevention care and research, where
| the act (a2) often results from temporary cognitive or
| emotional instability and (b2) is seldom in the dying persons
| overall interest. You on the other hand perhaps meant to
| distinguish between the dying person (a) getting assistance
| vs in dying (b) acting alone. A third termological option is
| 'assisted dying'. A big complication is that 'euthanasia'
| comes with quite different historical baggage in different
| countries.
| Biganon wrote:
| No. Euthanasia is well defined in Swiss law, and it is not the
| same as assisted suicide. Let's not complicate things even
| further.
| schroeding wrote:
| "Euthanasie", the german word for euthanasia, is *heavily*
| stained by its meaning during the Nazi era, and the pod is made
| in (german speaking) switzerland.
|
| That's probably one of the main reasons why they called it
| "suicide capsule", even in english :)
|
| Edit: I don't really get why this is downvoted ^^ The link goes
| to an article that was originaly written in German and only
| translated by the swiss television station SRF.
|
| "Euthanasia" is not a neutral term in German, take a look at
| the wikipedia entry and how much of the page contains "NS",
| "Nationalsozialismus" or dates between 1939 and 1945:
| https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasie
|
| It was used as a euphemism by the Nazis, and this still taints
| it. It has lost much of its original meaning because of this.
| If you say "Euthanasie" in German, even to someone from
| switzerland, there is a very high chance people think of it as
| "the killing of people that disabled, against their will". :/
|
| There is a reason most people use "aktive Sterbehilfe" ("active
| help to die") instead of "Euthanasie", even though both things
| mean the same.
| detaro wrote:
| > _P.N.: Currently a doctor or doctors need to be involved to
| prescribe the sodium pentobarbital and to confirm the person's
| mental capacity. We want to remove any kind of psychiatric review
| from the process and allow the individual to control the method
| themselves.
|
| Our aim is to develop an artificial intelligence screening system
| to establish the person's mental capacity._
|
| That sounds like a terrible idea. There are valid concerns about
| doctor involvement in the process, but AI won't fix those.
| johnisgood wrote:
| > Our aim is to develop an artificial intelligence screening
| system to establish the person's mental capacity.
|
| Please let me know when this is done, I am very curious how one
| would implement such a thing. How can an AI determine if the
| person is in a "clear" state of mind? What does it even mean?
| Can they actually define this mental capacity that a person
| must be in to be able to make the choice? They have to define
| it, and then they have to somehow turn it into something that
| the computer can understand and work with. I believe that it is
| not possible.
| theragra wrote:
| It is also not possible with human doctors, yet it it is
| widely used for important decisions
| johnisgood wrote:
| OK, because we have patterns of behavior, we do this and
| that, we do not do this and do not do that when we are in a
| clear state of mind[1]. Now, to make it usable for AI, we
| have to define what these behaviors are that you do and do
| not do that makes you be in a clear state of mind. It is
| not enough to give an exhaustive list, or use heuristics;
| you have to consider the context as well.
|
| Sure, humans might do it in a more or less accurate way,
| but could an AI? If it could, would you please tell me how?
| I really am curious[2], I work at the hospital.
|
| Oh, about working at the hospital: a patient has been
| deemed aggressive when in fact it is just her voice and
| looks and whatnot that makes it seem like she is
| aggressive. She is not actually aggressive in any way, she
| just looks and sounds as if she were. The moment you have a
| discussion with her, you would be able to tell that she is
| not aggressive at all. How would an AI deal with this, if
| even humans cannot? You also have to consider that these
| behaviors are heavily influenced by the environment and
| changes in environment that one has to consider.
|
| [1] Mind you, there are cultural differences at play here
| as well. There are some behaviors that would consider you
| "not in a clear state of mind" in one culture, but not in
| another.
|
| [2] I am also wondering if an AI would be able to determine
| if a person has dementia based on behavior alone.
| bjt2n3904 wrote:
| This whole thing is a terrible idea. All of it.
| [deleted]
| Quarrelsome wrote:
| I see you haven't had to care for someone with Alzheimer's
| before.
|
| Its not a terrible idea, as a society we retain some naive
| and arguably zealous notions around death which often makes
| us push towards natural outcomes. Some natural outcomes are
| different from others in that they're significantly worse for
| all parties involved. Those outcomes are a subject that
| should be given more attention and seriousness as opposed to
| mere emotional rejection.
| 14 wrote:
| Care giver here and someone who has directly worked with
| individuals who have done the MAID (medically assisted
| induced death). A person with Alzheimer's would
| automatically be disqualified for consideration as they
| lack the mental capacity to consent to such a thing. This
| will most likely never be offered for that group of people.
| They typically are not suffering though some do get
| terrified at times but in general they are just lost in
| their world with not much insight as to why things are that
| way.
| Quarrelsome wrote:
| > A person with Alzheimer's would automatically be
| disqualified for consideration as they lack the mental
| capacity to consent to such a thing.
|
| Which is part of the reason that people who have seen it
| with their parents often want to submit their consent in
| advance. If I get Alzheimer's, please fucking kill me.
| 14 wrote:
| Currently the law does not support that type of advanced
| directive. You can say do not leave me in a vegetative
| state after a car accident but not for Alzheimer's.
| datameta wrote:
| > They typically are not suffering
|
| How on earth did you get such an out-of-touch callously
| asinine idea?
|
| It is the most mentally debilitating state one can
| possibly be in. Their depth of recollection comes and
| goes. There is a persistent growing and waning sense of
| confusion. Their grasp on reality is in a shattered
| state. They recollect details out of context or in false
| connection to current events. I seriously fail to
| understand how you could underplay this disease.
| 14 wrote:
| I used to work in a facility with the highest rating of
| care required for Alzheimer's and dementia like
| conditions and typically if well looked after they are
| not suffering. Yes some do get scared and confused but
| with medication and skilled workers you can minimize that
| type of suffering. What ends up often happening is family
| feels guilty placing their loved ones in such a facility
| and instead struggle and eventually burn out. At that
| point they may already be short with the person and yes
| they truly are suffering. But a well trained staff can
| really help reduce such interaction through distraction
| and conversation or music and medications. There are even
| now in the world dementia villages where people don't
| actually know they are in a facility and they can wonder
| around because the entire thing is fenced off but looks
| normal with shops and places they can go to. Usually the
| person who is suffering is the family who can no longer
| manage the 24/7 care required. And that is not a poor
| reflection on them it takes a lot of mental drain to deal
| with a person ask you the same thing 300 times a day.
| datameta wrote:
| I apologize for my pointed accusation. I did indeed
| experience the difficulties of at-home care, it can be
| too much for a few loved ones to manage. The training
| isn't there. I think you paint the overall picture well
| from experience. I'm glad to hear that the average case
| of dementia, when properly looked after, can be milder on
| the person than I imagined.
| therealdrag0 wrote:
| What if you had an advanced directive that explicitly
| called out that scenario? Not saying the law would cover
| that, but it plausibly could.
| Pasorrijer wrote:
| In Canada, yes, advanced directives can be written.
| 14 wrote:
| Not for assisted death and something like Alzheimer's.
| That directive is for something like you are in a car
| accident and are on life support. You can have it say no
| life support. You can not currently say if I get
| Alzheimer's I want to die it is not legally possible at
| this time.
| 14 wrote:
| Could you elaborate on what parts you find terrible? It seems
| like a peaceful way to die for some.
| pydry wrote:
| Giving AI the power to approve suicides?
| 14 wrote:
| Well I don't know the details but I don't think this is a
| suicide booth just anyone can use you would still need to
| have a doctor verify you had a terminal illness and then
| I could be left with you to use at the time you were
| ready. The AI is simply making sure you are of sound mind
| at the time of death. Which means you can answer a few
| questions and it wouldn't be that hard to determine if
| someone was if sound mind there are plenty of mental
| state exams that a computer could give.
| cadence- wrote:
| Why? There is no more personal thing than your own life. Why
| should not we be able to choose when to end it? People will
| be doing it anyways, just in all the gruesome ways it is
| usually done. Hopefully this container doubles as a coffin
| that can be either buried or burnt.
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| Sucide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
|
| Usually, atleast a few other methods should be used to
| help, before deciding on suicide (with a notable exception
| of being close to a very painful, inevitable death, and
| just wanting to shorten the suffering).
| sokoloff wrote:
| Suicide is a permanent solution. Sometimes it's a
| solution to a temporary problem; other times to a
| permanent problem.
| avgcorrection wrote:
| I'm personally biased towards hope. Meaning that I keep
| thinking that things will be better and that I will reach
| a point where things will be meaningful. I call this a
| bias because I can remember the past and how long I've
| been in this state of mind without it panning out--it's a
| false hope more often than not.
|
| If average people are anything like me then I would think
| that they are more likely to think that a permanent
| problem is a temporary one rather than the other way
| around.
| yumraj wrote:
| That is just a silly quote/generalization.
|
| As an example: Old age is a permanent, and worsening,
| problem. Why should one be forced to live to an old age
| where they are dependent on others, IF they don't want
| to?
| pbsull wrote:
| Suicide causes permanent state change. Life and all of
| life's problems are temporary state.
| PUSH_AX wrote:
| > all of life's problems are temporary state.
|
| Not all. Incurable disease is just one example.
| kergonath wrote:
| That's such an absurd point of view. When the duration of
| the problems is comparable to your expected lifespan, it
| is permanent for all intent and purposes. Sure, an
| incurable illness is not permanent in that it has to end
| when the person die. That's not a useful point to make.
| gregoryl wrote:
| Can you agree that there's some threshold where the time
| required to endure the temporary state is untenable?
|
| How can anyone except myself decide what that threshold
| is?
| rad_gruchalski wrote:
| Until one dies anyway.
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| So, what harm is it to try a few talks with a therapist,
| try to fix the problem, and if it doesn't work, you can
| still kill yourself?
|
| Even buying guns in some states has a 3 day cool-off
| period.
| csee wrote:
| Perhaps it could work with a much more extended cool-off
| period. Over the course of a year, the person needs to
| affirm they want to go through with it on the last day of
| each month. If over the last 12 consecutive months they
| have said yes 12 times, then assist them, otherwise no.
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| Yep, with therapy in between... Of course, the inevitable
| painful death being an exception, that can be done a lot
| faster.
|
| Anything is better than AI in a 3d printed box.
| weego wrote:
| Without being at all patronising, you're lucky to be able
| to have such a binary view of mental and physical health.
|
| There are so many non-temporary conditions that people
| live with that can lead to wanting people, very
| rationally, to speed up end of life.
| jes wrote:
| Curious as to why you see parent as lucky to hold a
| binary view, if you care to say. I would say holding such
| a view is unlucky. Perhaps I'm missing something
| important.
| notreallyserio wrote:
| The use of the cliche "Sucide is a permanent solution to
| a temporary problem" demonstrates binary thinking, as
| though there is only one temporary problem and no
| compounding factors.
|
| It's also a pretty shitty thing to say. It's designed to
| make people who may want to die feel worse about
| themselves by calling their feelings merely "temporary".
| jes wrote:
| I was asking weego why they consider ajsnigrutin lucky to
| hold the binary view you outline.
| notreallyserio wrote:
| Sure, but publicly, and I had a response (as I was
| thinking the same thing).
| jannyfer wrote:
| The part you didn't respond to is why they are "lucky" to
| be able to hold a view...
|
| My guess is that if you have such a binary view of the
| world, you might have lived a simple or sheltered or
| privileged life.
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| Sure... but they should atleast try some kind of therapy,
| before deciding to end it all permanently.
| drivingmenuts wrote:
| That's nice and all, but but in the real world, those
| things aren't always available (for any number of
| reasons, not just financial). In the absence of other
| solutions, sometimes the best choice may be to end a life
| rather than continue suffering.
| meepmorp wrote:
| What kind of therapy ought someone consider before
| deciding to end it because their terminal illness is
| excruciatingly painful?
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| Yes, this is the exception i put in the braces in my
| previous post.
|
| But being physically ok, but having depression is
| something that can be solved by therapy.. or atleast
| should be tried before ending it
| macNchz wrote:
| Studies of psychedelic therapy for terminally ill
| patients have had some super interesting results, there's
| a section on the topic in Michael Pollan's book _How to
| Change Your Mind_ which I found fascinating. Seems there
| is a lot of potential for helping people deal with the
| existential dread and get more enjoyment from their
| remaining time with friends and family. Here's an article
| for reference: https://nyulangone.org/news/mental-health-
| benefits-one-dose-...
|
| That said I'm a Swiss citizen and knew someone with a
| terminal illness who used the "Exit" program and it
| seemed extremely humane and a positive thing overall and
| I fully support having it available to everyone in that
| situation.
| asdfasgasdgasdg wrote:
| Presumably most if not all people who end up doing an
| assisted suicide _have_ tried one or more methods to
| ameliorate their issue before they go to the more extreme
| approach. Do you have some reason to believe they do not?
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| I still think there should be a human safeguard to verify
| that everything else has been tried.
|
| A few questions and an AI box is not 'that'.
| 5e92cb50239222b wrote:
| Please advise: what therapy could help the terminally ill
| father of a friend of mine? Stage 4 lung cancer. Talk to
| a psychologist? The only thing that "helped" him were
| large doses of opiate painkillers.
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| Yes, this is the exception i put in the braces in my
| previous post.
|
| But being physically ok, but having depression is
| something that can be solved by therapy.. or atleast
| should be tried before ending it
| throwawayboise wrote:
| What's wrong with large doses of optiate painkillers, if
| you're terminally ill? Addicition isn't a worry,
| certainly.
| zdragnar wrote:
| The side effects of most pain killers can also be
| extremely unpleasant. You'll have more time, but you'll
| be miserable or marginally conscious for most of it.
| johnisgood wrote:
| In case of opiates, what side-effects are you thinking
| of? Constipation is an easy fix. Assuming proper use and
| dosage, opiates are way safer than NSAIDs.
| stan_rogers wrote:
| And they don't always work. Look up intractable pain.
| loonster wrote:
| Sometimes the problems are permanent.
| avgcorrection wrote:
| What a neat slogan. Also misleading.
|
| Life itself temporary, hence the death-is-permanent
| thing. Hence all things in life--pain, happiness,
| pleasure, suffering--are temporary. Suicide is just the
| shortening of all of these possible states (or potential
| states--for the hopeful). Thus a shortening of a bunch of
| temporary states.
|
| Doesn't sound as menacing and dramatic when you put it
| like that. And it's equally true.
| stan_rogers wrote:
| And what of the excruciatingly painful existence that
| doesn't come with a near-term "inevitable death". What
| you're advocating is long-term inescapable torture.
| PUSH_AX wrote:
| > Sucide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
|
| This quote is supposed to be used in the correct context
| of the specific situation, *if* it's truly temporary. Not
| just as a generalisation.
| f6v wrote:
| > Usually, atleast a few other methods should be used to
| help
|
| I bet most of people who resort to assisted suicide in
| Switzerland have terminal disease or incurable pain.
| antris wrote:
| This suicide capsule concept is clearly targeted for
| people who have made a well thought out decision on their
| life. Heat-of-the-moment suicides, won't happen with rare
| specialty devices but common
| tools/environments/drugs/poisons that are found all over.
|
| It would be a weird assumption to think that a person who
| carefully plans their suicide in advance, and orders a
| specialty device for it, hasn't considered options other
| than suicide. Most likely such a person has tried
| everything else already.
| sgustard wrote:
| It's a good point about the rollout strategy. Is this a
| specialty device you must order? Or is there a row of
| them on display at the mall next to the massage chairs?
| daenz wrote:
| You can also be against the act of suicide and for the
| freedom to commit suicide. The two ideas don't have to be
| conflated.
| johnisgood wrote:
| Because we cannot even define what "clear state of mind" is
| in a way that an AI would be able to determine.
| otabdeveloper4 wrote:
| You can already kill yourself if you really want to. Nobody
| can stop you.
|
| The whole idea of "assisted suicide" is like Bitcoin -
| invented for the express purpose of finding and abusing
| loopholes in the current legal frameworks.
| gambiting wrote:
| Yes, someone who is paralyzed from their neck down can
| easily take their own life, of course. Don't see any
| issue here.
|
| You have to excuse the sarcasm, but if you really can't
| think of any cases where taking your own life in a
| dignified manner is not actually possible, then I'm not
| sure there's any discussion to be had here
| tasty_freeze wrote:
| There are multiple ways one might commit suicide, it is
| true. But some are more reliable than others; some leave
| a terrible mess for someone (perhaps a family member) to
| clean up; some are more painful than others; some may put
| other people at risk. The worst outcome is when a person
| tries to kill themselves and ends up alive but in an even
| worse condition.
|
| For people who don't have religious prohibitions on
| suicide, having a reliable, simple, low cost, low-pain,
| low-mess option sounds great to me.
| kergonath wrote:
| Sometimes legal frameworks are inhumane, immoral, cruel,
| and ought to be loopholed. I can think of at least 5
| examples right now.
| throwaway6734 wrote:
| Why? If I ever get dementia I would like the opportunity to
| end my own life before it progresses too far.
| [deleted]
| can16358p wrote:
| Then don't use it.
| eikenberry wrote:
| There should be no gatekeepers to control what you can do with
| yourself. No doctors nor AIs nor governments have that right. I
| should be able to buy a humane means of death with no questions
| asked whenever I want. I am the only person who has the right
| to determine if/when I die, it is not their call. It makes me
| so mad that you have to break the law to try to find a humane
| way to commit suicide and that so many people resort to
| terribly unpleasant means. And while I'm glad to see progress
| from things like this and mad dog brewing in AU, it isn't
| enough.
| dillondoyle wrote:
| I agree for ill and end of life.
|
| But I think it's more complicated for otherwise healthy
| people temporarily passing through a mental illness crisis or
| untreated depression. Though there is a distinction here in
| it's a government providing the means. Anyone can figure out
| a means themselves.
| DanBC wrote:
| You have a right to life. You don't yet have a right to
| death. Given that, it's understandable that there are
| barriers in place for people who temporarily think they want
| to die.
| baobabKoodaa wrote:
| You don't have the right to dictate what people can and
| can't do with their own bodies. Furthermore, you should
| accept the fact that some people hold opinions different
| than yours and it's not always "temporary", yes, differing
| opinions actually do exist. There's many documented cases
| of people consistently wanting to die over a long period of
| time, you deny these people exist?
| eikenberry wrote:
| My point is that you do have a right to death. You could
| understand it in terms of the right to life... that it is
| your right to control. If you don't have the right to die
| do you really have control of your life and the right to
| it. IMO the right to life requires a right to die.
| hardwaregeek wrote:
| Are they trying to create the suicide booths from Futurama?
| Because that sounds about as good of an idea
| hereforphone wrote:
| > I wan't to commit suicide HAL
|
| > I'm sorry, I'm afraid I can't let you do that Dave
|
| Better than the opposite case where the AI has the ability to
| mandate suicide.
| i_like_waiting wrote:
| > I wan't to commit suicide HAL > I'm sorry, but you have
| outstanding debt please resolve it before continuing >
| Program will continue after this short ad from Coffins Inc.
|
| you cannot scale those things effectively with doctors as
| middlemen
| fennecfoxen wrote:
| > the ability to mandate suicide
|
| 'to mandate suicide' is typically reduced to 'commit
| homicide'
| hereforphone wrote:
| Can AI commit homicide? Does cancer commit homicide?
| johnisgood wrote:
| Someone who programmed the AI committed homicide
| using/programming the AI. But then... what about bugs?
| What if these bugs are not incidental? Let us assume that
| they are. Would it count then as non-premeditated murder?
| Who are the people who reviewed the code in this case,
| then? Accessories?
| throwawayboise wrote:
| https://memegenerator.net/instance/67435723/clippy-hi-i-
| am-c...
| dqpb wrote:
| Well, you know Apple watches can detect you are getting sick,
| before you experience any symptoms, via changes to your heart
| rate.
|
| A maximally effective suicide AI should also be able to
| detect that you are a good suicide candidate before you even
| start having ideation, and proactively convince you of this
| fact.
| [deleted]
| AJ007 wrote:
| I'm not sure if there is any difference. They are assuming
| that their "AI" is acting alone and in a very narrowly
| defined context.
|
| What's to say the human voluntarily entered this capsule and
| the "AI" does what that person wishes? One could take the Kim
| Jong-nam assassination as an example where the participants
| may have believed something completely different was
| occurring than the true context.
|
| In the absence of "AI" someone could reverse the do die/do
| not die button. However, adding an additional, pliable layer
| is a bad idea.
|
| Whether it is autonomous weapons or this, once AI or machine
| learning is added, the human is no longer in full control.
| cstross wrote:
| That's just plain crazy.
|
| The software only knows what the (human) user tells it. What
| assurance does it have that the patient isn't being pressurized
| into giving the correct answers? Or that the suicide capsule is
| going to be used correctly (as opposed to being a murder tool)?
|
| If you start looking for edge cases where this might go wrong,
| it turns out to be razor-sharp edge cases all the way down. A
| human with a remit to prevent false positives should be the
| last link in the kill chain: sure, allow the applicant to
| appeal if the human practitioner has made a mistake, but the
| default outcome should be "no kill" unless their mental
| capacity can be positively confirmed (which is a GAI-complete
| requirement, hence wanting a human being in the loop).
| [deleted]
| phailhaus wrote:
| I can't believe he said that with a straight face. He actually
| thinks you can write a _computer program_ that can give humans
| permission to _kill themselves_. I don 't think he consulted
| with a single engineer before making that statement.
| cyanydeez wrote:
| just to be clear, what exactly is the epistomological basis
| against sucide.
| phailhaus wrote:
| I'm not arguing against assisted suicide. I just think it
| is wildly ignorant to think that a computer can accurately
| assess someone's mental capacity.
| zdragnar wrote:
| Most hold that life has value, and the desire to continue
| living t9 be axiomatic. There are very few cases where
| suicide may be considered a rational choice, and in those
| cases it is difficult to determine that the choice was made
| of their own free will, and not pressured into it by lazy
| family, doctors or government (dictating available
| treatments, providing appropriate pallative care, etc).
| drivingmenuts wrote:
| Wouldn't the desire to die be proof that the desire to
| live is not axiomatic?
| cyanydeez wrote:
| hold whose life valueable to who.
|
| the very consent required for life doesnt exist.
|
| people dont consent to being alive.
|
| holding someone who feels suffering alive would be
| considered torture.
|
| when you strip away the selfishness that is keeping
| others alive, suicide might be the only truly zelfless
| act.
|
| i do not think you need a complicated ai to allow a
| suicide machine. you treat it as you would the way we
| sane people regulate guns. cool down periods, background
| checks and coercion checks.
| mongol wrote:
| Ethical AI, anyone?
| Nextgrid wrote:
| You could argue nobody needs "permission" to decide what to
| do with their lives to begin with?
| wutwutwutwut wrote:
| But that was not what was being argued.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| My point is that the developers of the device may not
| believe that anyone needs such a "permission" either and
| thus the whole AI/computer program is merely there to
| fulfil some legal obligation - they don't actually care
| whether it's good or not.
| [deleted]
| wutwutwutwut wrote:
| The thing we are talking about is verifying that the
| person is in a mental shape to take the decision to end
| his life. The word "permission" is an odd choice here.
| sokoloff wrote:
| I think it's an interesting framing/premise to think that a
| human _needs to be given_ permission to kill themselves.
| [deleted]
| smusamashah wrote:
| Permission is probably correct here. Unless you can live in
| a close box in isolation without ever needing to depend on
| another living or having someone depend on you, then sure
| you can live/die on your own terms.
|
| You live by the rules of whatever society you are living
| in. You don't live in isolation, you depend on countless
| other living beings to be where you are in this point of
| time in your life. Life is interconnected web, not an
| isolated event.
|
| Your life has a value for other people too. No one can
| force you to live. "Permission" does not mean being forced.
| Unless you are physically unable to have a life, you should
| be needing a permission.
|
| We already give permission in courts and write rules on how
| a person should live (or not) their lives for so many
| reasons we think are beneficial/harmful for rest of us. How
| is this any different?
| analognoise wrote:
| Because it's naive to think a person wanting to end their
| own life is going to be deterred by a law?
|
| Like what are they doing to do, throw your body in
| prison? Hand your body a fine?
| gnull wrote:
| They will not let you have a reliable and painless death.
| I bet some people will be stopped by the pain that a
| traditional suicide methods might bring, as well as the
| risk of staying alive but getting mutilated for the rest
| of their life as a result.
| goldenkey wrote:
| ^ This. The risk of becoming a vegetable from a botched
| suicide is pretty high. The last thing a suicidal person
| wants is to make their life even worse.
| smusamashah wrote:
| That's the kind of suicide one is going to do anyway. I
| am here talking about the one which someone is sane
| enough to seek assistance or buy a device like in the
| article.
|
| We already put people with mental issues in mental health
| facilities instead of killing them. We could probably do
| something similar (not the same) for people who decide to
| take their own lives and seek out before doing it.
| analognoise wrote:
| So the plan is to cause bureaucratic headaches and forced
| treatment options for people who openly and sanely admit
| they don't like being here, leaving only the messy and
| less effective methods easily available?
|
| This is one of those, "in theory, there's no difference
| between theory and practice. In practice, there are"
| situations.
|
| Nobody owes society anything. In fact, the reverse is
| true: society owes things to those brought into this
| world without being asked: clean water, safety, clean
| environment, reasonable standards of living. I just don't
| see how it could cross anyone's mind to try to prevent
| people from ending their life, since they didn't ask to
| be here in the first place, to support a society that has
| clearly failed that individual.
|
| If a society is good and just and receives conscious
| support from people, that's acceptable. But I don't see
| how it could possibly justify interfering with a right of
| self determination w.r.t. ending the ride early.
|
| I guess I just don't get it. It seems cruel and
| Kafkaesque.
| Aidevah wrote:
| Destruction of government property is generally considered
| illegal.
| gnull wrote:
| "Permission" was just a bad way to put it. I'm sure what
| they are actually talking about is making sure that the
| person is making the decision in clear mind and not under
| the effect of drugs, strong temporal emotions and is not
| being forced by someone to do this.
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| Some do. Some don't. It is very hard to generalize here.
|
| I personally don't really think that a person, who is
| making that a leap and decide and stop existing, has a
| 'clear' mind. It may be an objectively rational decision
| ( and frankly, I believe it is up to each of us to make
| that decision ), but I would be hard-pressed to argue
| that 'this individual, who I find of sound mind opted for
| the chair'. There is a reason society has certain level
| of concern for those that try and fail.
|
| It is possible that I do not have enough of a population
| sample, but I personally see it as part of an effort way
| to keep world population control at certain level. Before
| anyone accuses me of tin-foiling, I mean it in the same
| sense as that there are efforts to prevent suicides by
| means of suicide prevention hotlines.
|
| I guess what I am saying, as a society, we are grappling
| with with two competing interests:
|
| 1. We care about certain individuals and we don't want
| them gone from our life. 2. We care about certain
| individuals and we want them to have control over their
| own body.
| cjfd wrote:
| I don't find it very hard to think of situation where it
| is likely that a person has a clear mind and decides to
| stop existing. In particular in case of a disease where
| the person knows that the only thing that life has in
| store for them is either more pain or being palliatively
| sedated.
| tednoob wrote:
| A reverse Turing test. A discussion with a computer to
| convince it you are a sane human.
| [deleted]
| 5e92cb50239222b wrote:
| > strong temporal emotions
|
| That's a pretty loaded statement. You're probably
| thinking of those ostentatious fools who end up in the
| news like "man was prevented from jumping off the
| bridge". Not every suicide does it on a whim, some think
| about that decision for many years.
| thisiswater wrote:
| Yes, but the vast majority of people who survive a
| suicide attempt do not go on to die by suicide.
| mortehu wrote:
| As a general trend, when you make effective suicide less
| convenient, e.g. switching from lethal gas to carbon
| monoxide free natural gas in ovens, they happen less
| often. Not necessarily because of fewer attempts though.
|
| https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-
| matter/saves...
| detaro wrote:
| yes, that's the point, making the distinction between
| those two? How is that a loaded statement?
| diognesofsinope wrote:
| > strong temporal emotions
|
| Well said. As Jim Jefferies said in his gun control bit
| referencing suicide -- 'We all have bad days.'
| [deleted]
| api wrote:
| It's not about permission in the idealistic sense. It's
| about issues like people being pressured or manipulated
| into it so someone can have inheritance, so the healthcare
| system can save money, etc.
|
| These would be even larger concerns in the US than
| Switzerland for cultural and economic reasons.
|
| I am personally against assisted suicide for the same
| reason I am against the death penalty: the logic works but
| only if you ignore the ugliness and messiness of real human
| behavior.
| theragra wrote:
| So you think several cases of unintended death are more
| important than suffering of all who really want to die?
| Cause I can't imagine that percentage of wrong deaths is
| more than several percents.
| sgustard wrote:
| A "wrong death rate of several percent" sounds
| problematic in almost any circumstance.
| sokoloff wrote:
| That must be traded off against a "prolonged suffering
| rate of X%" as the overwhelmingly likely alternative.
|
| We chose to euthanize our dog this summer. No matter how
| obvious her medical condition was, I still questioned
| whether we did it too early, too late, or just right.
| (Upon reflection, I think _very_ slightly too late [by
| days or maybe a week].) I also couldn't help but compare
| that experience to that of people. In many ways, I think
| we treat our family pets with more compassion.
| syshum wrote:
| >>It's not about permission in the idealistic sense
|
| Then you proceed to give an idealistic reason to oppose
| it... A person choosing to end their life to preserve a
| family inheritance IMO would / should be a valid reason,
| your opposition to such a choice is idealistic.
|
| >I am personally against assisted suicide for the same
| reason I am against the death penalty
|
| There is no logical or idealistic similarities between
| the two as there is a difference between actions being
| forced upon you, and voluntary actions.
|
| This has become a common trend in the modern era where we
| attempt to expand the idea of coercion to include
| scenario;s where people have only poor choices. Examples
| include people taking a poor paying job being "coerced"
| into it because they did not have "good" choices,
|
| it is very dangerous to equate a circumstances where
| there are no good options to coercion
| sokoloff wrote:
| I suspect I'm generally aligned with you on the topic,
| but I agree that "choosing suicide for grandma to
| preserve a family inheritance" is perfectly valid if
| grandma is choosing it, but acknowledge that it's
| terribly problematic if the kids or grandkids are behind
| it. Being in the middle part of my life, I've seen the
| pressures that arise here, the concerns over finances and
| quality of life, and the diminishment of mental capacity
| of many elderly folks.
|
| I had a close family member express repeatedly and
| regularly that "they were done" and "are looking forward
| to finally dying". That's what makes me strongly support
| individual choice here, but I'm not blind to the
| possibility of abuse here (and near certainty that it
| will happen in some cases).
| cyber_kinetist wrote:
| Baudrillard's going to laugh in his grave for this one.
|
| Our modern society has tried so hard to defeat death that
| we have essentially surrounded ourselves in it. Once we've
| made machines that try to defeat death, the only natural
| extension is to make machines that do the exact opposite,
| since there is no longer a distinction between the two.
|
| (I highly recommend reading Chapter 5 from Baudrillard's
| _Symbollic Exchange and Death_ , which elaborates about how
| modern society has ripped apart the symbolic exchange
| between life and death and neatly partitioned it, and as a
| consequence death becomes an immortal force that we cannot
| deal with.)
| [deleted]
| timwaagh wrote:
| A Dutch engineer maybe. The views on this topic are so
| extreme in my country i find it a bit creepy. I'm sure
| everyone involved thinks people should be able to die at the
| touch of a button. The rest is just there for compliance
| reasons.
| tomjen3 wrote:
| As an Engineer, I wouldn't necessarily be against it if it
| made EOL decisions more available to humans. I would prefer
| no program at all, and just have a waiting period of 14 days
| to nullify those who insist that all suicidal thoughts are
| just spur of the moment things.
|
| But given access to data and an appeals process for those it
| turned down, I would be morally okay with writing the
| software.
|
| We let parents have as many children as they want, why
| shouldn't those children get to say if the life they have is
| worth living?
| logifail wrote:
| > I would prefer no program at all, and just have a waiting
| period of 14 days to nullify those who insist that all
| suicidal thoughts are just spur of the moment things
|
| I've not posted about this before, for a variety of
| reasons:
|
| A close family friend of mine - in his mid 20s - took his
| own life a week or so before Christmas a couple of years
| ago.
|
| I was with him and his father in a pub the evening before,
| he was telling jokes and buying drinks, he was dead a few
| hours later.
|
| Unfortunately taking your own life doesn't have a cooling-
| off period :(
| xupybd wrote:
| I have found depression can last much longer than 14 days.
| oneepic wrote:
| While it's not in the article, I could see them adding _some_
| in-person contact (ie interview /screen with a human, but not
| a doctor) to get a rough idea of the person. Not just accept
| or deny them 100% according to the AI.
| tsuujin wrote:
| > The second turned out not to be aesthetically pleasing. For
| that and various other reasons it's not the best one to use.
|
| Also on the list of concerning statements. Why do I get the
| feeling that "various other reasons" play a bit of a more
| important role than he's letting on there?
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| at that level you talk to the salespeople, not the engineers.
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| I will add more to this. What is really fascinating is the
| idea 'ai' has been so successfully sold as a solution to just
| about any problem out there. I am genuinely trying not to
| just not add 'using novel blockchain protocol for full
| transparency' ( while naturally keeping all transparency out
| from the ai blackbox ).
|
| We live in a weird time leg.
| kqr wrote:
| Not so fast. Meehl (1989) is the obvious reference here: http
| s://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=meeh...
|
| But going beyond that, Kahneman in his latest book summarises
| the recent research in the area as such:
|
| - Simple linear models generally outperform experts.
|
| - Simple linear models generally outperform experts when the
| experts get additional information to base their decisions
| on, that the model does not get.
|
| - Simple linear models generally outperform experts when the
| experts get to know and use the outcome of the linear model.
|
| - Simple linear models trained only on an expert's judgments
| and not the actual outcome outperform the very expert they
| were trained on.
|
| - Simple linear models with random weights (!) outperform
| experts.
|
| - Simple linear models with equal weights (i.e. transform the
| predictors to the same scale and then just sum them)
| outperform experts.
|
| - Simple linear models with equal weights and almost all
| predictors removed except the best 1--3 outperform experts.
| phailhaus wrote:
| > Simple linear models generally outperform experts
|
| At what? At correctly diagnosing patients or predicting
| prognosis once an issue has already been identified, as in
| Meehl's paper? That is not the same thing as determining
| whether a patient has the "mental capacity" to commit
| suicide.
| actually_a_dog wrote:
| Nor did they consult with an ethicist, clearly.
| punnerud wrote:
| "Hi Tesla, can you help me kill my self?"
|
| Sounds like a terrible feature
| zabzonk wrote:
| "You already own me, don't you?"
| Y_Y wrote:
| "Full Self Driving activated."
| danielovichdk wrote:
| Outrageous. You want me to believe that it's humane to lie in a
| fucking blue capsule and commit suicide?
|
| People need to understand that when and if you really want to
| kill yourself, this is often done in affect if not the individual
| is very psychical sick.
|
| I don't like this. I think its ethically wrong to have people go
| away in a plastic box and building an actual product around that.
| I mean, how inhumane are you trying to make this look?
|
| Have people go out in their own bed, have their loved ones next
| them and have professional medical staff help out during the
| process.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| > this is often done in affect if not the individual is very
| psychical sick
|
| You also have the population of people who are sick and simply
| want to end their life.
|
| No affect. No psychological issues.
|
| Just the fact that you want to be in control of your life. I
| find this very courageous - I for one certainly do not want to
| be a burden for my family if I am in a state that requires them
| to take care of me when my brain is gone.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Yes that was my feeling just about the appearance of the thing.
| Why does it have to look so cold, alien, sterile?
| throwaway675309 wrote:
| I think a person who's had to live in chronic excruciating pain
| for years is not gonna give a shit what color the freaking
| capsule is, if this provides them a relatively painless way out
| of their never ending suffering then it's their goddamn choice.
|
| It's not up to their family, and it's not up to their friends.
| They can't begin to understand the anguish that person is going
| through and frankly neither can you.
| xf13d wrote:
| This is to eliminate the pesky doctor from the situation.
|
| Doctors have ethics, morals, and feelings. Doctors, at least
| ostensibly, agree to "first do no harm". If you take that
| statement literally that means doctors are obligated to not
| help a patient commit suicide because killing someone is
| ostensibly more harm than having them in pain. I know this
| isn't popular on HN being very pro individual liberty, and I
| agree people _should_ have control over their own lives, but
| the inclusion of doctors presents a problem to people who want
| to enable anyone to kill themselves easily.
|
| The sarco is a techno-dystopian solution. Now that the cat is
| out of the bag, 3d printable, and theoretically reliable, it's
| only a matter of time before it's used for something other than
| killing yourself. Or, even worse, it's used to create some new
| tech startup that starts to approach soylent green. Just throw
| a nice screen in there with images of pretty scenery and you
| have the "exit" in the most literal sense.
|
| It's humane in theory because the nitrogen provides a painless
| death. I say in theory because this only works in theory. There
| have been many failed suicides directed by exit international
| that demonstrate the method is not as effective as they tout
| but no one seems to mention the quackery by EI when they talk
| about them.
|
| My concern is these people walk the line between "helping the
| actual sick have a peaceful death" and "homicidal psychopath"
| and with this device I believe they are leaning far, far closer
| to the latter. Creating mass scale suicide devices with the
| specific intent to end people's lives is immoral and unethical.
| As stated above, it will only be a matter of time before a
| company decides to provide suicide-as-a-service.
| pengaru wrote:
| Am I alone in wishing the person in the photo would climb in for
| a live demonstration?
| paxcoder wrote:
| Pain is a part of life, God is the answer. People belong to God,
| they have no right to kill themselves. Furthermore, people change
| their minds when they jump. In short, euthanasia is an
| abomination
| [deleted]
| isodev wrote:
| Excellent! Every person should have the right to make the choice
| for themselves.
| newintellectual wrote:
| Simple fact: everybody dies.
|
| The remaining question is whether you have any control over it.
| duxup wrote:
| There was PBS Frontline episode about a man who after being
| diagnosed with ALS traveled to Switzerland to die. They follow
| him until the very end.
|
| Very powerful episode, I still remember it vividly.
|
| https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/suicidetourist/
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Every day we draw closer to _Children of Men_
|
| https://youtu.be/IacY-MYuQQ0
|
| https://youtu.be/QYy80trSPSI
| bobthechef wrote:
| The nihilistic culture of death is well established, so I'm
| surprised it took this long or if this thing can truly be said to
| be "new".
| jliptzin wrote:
| The capsule itself is interesting, seems like a peaceful and pain
| free way to die. I don't understand why they feel they have to
| replace doctors and psychiatrists with an AI in prescribing the
| procedure, one of the worst ideas I have ever heard.
| xwdv wrote:
| Replacing with AI solves the issue of having to wait weeks to
| see a doctor and also the costs associated with it.
| schroeding wrote:
| But so does replacing it with an algorithm that randomly says
| "yes" or "no" ^^
|
| (Costs shouldn't be an issue, switzerland has pretty good
| medical insurances AFAIK)
| politician wrote:
| I'm glad to see this uses nitrogen asphyxiation. It's the humane
| alternative.
|
| Edit: Clicked the link
| mrshadowgoose wrote:
| I'm not sure if you're joking, or simply did not read the
| article. The capsule described in the article is person-sized,
| and uses nitrogen asphyxiation.
| jack_riminton wrote:
| When did people stop reading the articles on here? this
| affliction seems to have spread from Twitter
| gwbas1c wrote:
| The same problem existed on Slashdot 20 years ago. Assuming
| you have good karma, the easiest thing to do is downvote.
| bogwog wrote:
| It's not even about reading, this guy did not even click the
| link. If you do, the first thing you see is a picture of the
| thing.
| [deleted]
| Minor49er wrote:
| He might have thought it was too big a pill to swallow
| amne wrote:
| Has anyone heard from the QA team?
| qualudeheart wrote:
| I find this very depressing.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| I find it very reassuring that there is a place around me where
| I can do this (I am in France, and have Switzerland, the
| Netherlands and BElgium nearby).
| [deleted]
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