[HN Gopher] Study: Most Dog Breeds Highly Inbred
___________________________________________________________________
Study: Most Dog Breeds Highly Inbred
Author : rustoo
Score : 111 points
Date : 2021-12-03 13:50 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.ucdavis.edu)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.ucdavis.edu)
| h2odragon wrote:
| Going on 30 years, I have had a pack of working hounds, usually
| from 4 to 12 strong. We have rural land surrounded by large plots
| of _more_ rural land, 4,000 acres+ of tree farm and private
| hunting preserve, so our hounds are necessary for keeping coyotes
| and etc off livestock and other pets.
|
| In that time we've had many litters of puppies, usually trading
| them with neighbors to improve the local landrace and pass around
| some of the best traits. There's a steady input of "dumped
| purebeed" in the local mutts, they never survive long unless
| rescued.
|
| "Pure" breeds are useful in being controlled and defined
| parameters to breed from; hybrids are the best "working" dogs
| however. IMO.
|
| Our greatest successes have been with hunting hounds (bluetick
| coonhound or great danes) x "herding dogs" of some spread. The
| border collie x Bluetick cross produces some great dogs but
| there's a high proportion of psychopaths; expect 1:20 or so to be
| one of those puppies you just cant do _anything_ with without
| insane effort. Bluetick x Catahoula are more mentally stable but
| likely to fall to the "merle on merle" cillia based health
| issues. (Digestive trouble and/or hearing issues)
|
| Great danes x collie were robust, intelligent, _big_ dogs that
| avoided almost all the inhertibale issues of the parent lines;
| but that 's a cross you don't want to undertake raising without
| significant time. They're as bright as a small child and they
| feel they need a job: furthermore if you're not the boss, they
| feel they have to be. Of 4 litters (all large, hounds are
| profligate) we got 2 willful and bright enough I'd call them
| "psycho pups". _Bad_ news at that size and vitality. Great for a
| herd dog, but only if you don 't care about having input into how
| the herd is run.
| DizzyDoo wrote:
| Really interesting, thanks for posting. What do you practically
| do with the psychopath dogs/pups? Presumably the 'insane
| effort' required to keep them in line doesn't square well with
| all the other hard work your farm requires. Are you essentially
| forced to give the mentally unstable ones to a shelter?
| h2odragon wrote:
| I put the effort into the first one i met; she was named
| "Rascal" and one of the best dogs evar! (as they all are, of
| course :)
|
| I had her when the next one decided she needed to try to be
| boss; and then that pup left to run a wild dog pack for a
| couple years. they were decent neighbors but didnt thrive.
| We'd put out food at their corner of the place and they'd
| sometimes accept some, she set and respect boundaries
| otherwise.
|
| I tried to keep one of the great dane ones, she came after me
| at about 9mo old and >100lb; i still have scars. I put that
| one down then.
|
| I had one other of the danes i wasn't sure about, so I placed
| it with a guy who does "police / guard dog" training and
| heard it responded well.
|
| One of the more notional of the bluetick crosses got a job as
| a junkyard dog, where he didn't have to worry about people
| too much and vice versa.
|
| We've got a local "no kill" shelter we've been to several
| times, they have several dogs i classify as "psycho" too.
| None of mine, and I haven't tried adopting any of them
| (though i have helped take them to the vet sometimes).
|
| My view is that kind of dog can't be happy without a job and
| care and is unsafe to let roam where there may be humans for
| it to hurt. Shelter or dead and I can argue either side of
| "which is better". Having fostered the birth of a dangerous
| animal, I feel some responsibility to see it doesn't present
| a risk to others; and finding jobs for them, keeping them in
| a jail, or putting them down is a burden.
| californical wrote:
| Thanks for sharing!
|
| I'm curious how you'd identify a "psycho" dog in a shelter,
| assuming you don't have tons of time with the dogs. Are
| there some particular traits that are obvious or quickly
| identifiable?
|
| I'm curious just from a knowledge perspective, but also
| what someone should look out for if they're adopting a dog?
| h2odragon wrote:
| My wife calls me a werewolf, I can't say she's wrong. I
| speak dog.
|
| "Psycho" is probably a bad word to use. "Independent"
| could fit many of them. Too smart to be dogs. ... It's a
| spectrum and many of them can find places they fit.
|
| There _are_ dogs that you just can 't trust. The ones
| whose greatest joy is being aggressive, and are
| independent minded or otherwise unwilling to listen to
| anyone else anymore. Or too stupid to understand, for
| whom the world is a terrifying place and there is nothing
| but cringe.
|
| One of Rascal's puppy moves was, after peeing on the
| floor and not wanting to be pushed outside, a leap for
| the throat and bulldog "hang on and wrench" attack. That
| kind of disproportionate response is a bad sign. Lack of
| fear and "pain don't teach" are bad signs. Perhaps this
| dog would respond better to someone else or another dog
| or _something_ but then again maybe not.
| zoe4883 wrote:
| Not OP. Dogs are pack animals, so less bright are kept in
| order by pack. They are still usable for guarding, but can
| not be used for herding or hunting.
|
| "Psychopat" dogs have to be put down. Risk they attack
| something is too big. But they are rare.
| notyourwork wrote:
| Thank you for sharing, I really enjoyed reading this. It was
| informative and quite enjoyable to read. I'm also very jealous
| of the amount of space you have.
| h2odragon wrote:
| I've got 10ac in the middle of this. There's drawbacks (we
| get snowed in for 2wk by 12in of snow) but there's
| compensations.
| notyourwork wrote:
| My opinion is 10 is about perfect, big enough but not too
| big. I can appreciate the perspective, I take a lot for
| granted in the city and detaching my family from a major
| metropolitan area will be a living shift.
| etempleton wrote:
| We had a Beagle, or perhaps Beagle x similar hound (it was on
| the upper end of size for a beagle). I loved him, but he was a
| psychopath while also being the smartest dog I have ever had. I
| firmly believe some of the smartest dogs are some of the least
| trainable.
| armenarmen wrote:
| I've read through your thread, and your takes are super
| interesting and I'd love to learn/read more. If you have a dog
| blog/newsletter or anything I'd love a link, and if not I'd
| encourage you to make one
| jqpabc123 wrote:
| A lot of dog "breeds" are basically just genetic deformities
| being perpetuated through in-breeding.
|
| For example, some French bulldogs have a face that is so deformed
| it can barely eat or breathe. Some people think such deformed
| animals look "cute" but various Kennel Clubs are starting to
| penalize them in dog shows.
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| This image of 2 French bulldogs, one a winning show dog and the
| other the attempt to make a healthier breed, has made the
| rounds and it really shows the scope of the problem:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/oaw4v8/t...
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| It's pretty gross. It's animal abuse at that point, breeding in
| a way that you know causes the animal great suffering.
| etempleton wrote:
| The idea of pure breeds is a relatively modern phenomenon and not
| a very good one. The number of people that I have heard talk
| about how they cannot "trust" a dog if they don't have papers is
| staggering.
|
| Every mutt I have ever had ended up being a great dog with a
| great personality and disposition with minimal training required.
| All lived into their teens with only minor health problems
| towards the end of life.
| anticensor wrote:
| I am advancing this even further and going to call out creating
| pure breeds for no reason is an animal racism.
| SubiculumCode wrote:
| I like mutts. Healthier and more sane.
| CyberRabbi wrote:
| Not if they are a mix of two inbred breeds. Good genes are what
| inherently matters not muttiness, which is just a lazy proxy
| for good genes.
| peteradio wrote:
| We have a cross between a purebred momma English Spring Spaniel
| and a purebred daddy Black Lab. They were an accidental happening
| and we got our boy for cheap. One of our friends got one of his
| sisters. The variety in those pups is pretty wild. The coloring
| is similar, black body with white tuxedo stripe along the belly.
| Our boy is nearly identical looking to the purebred flat coated
| retrievers we had growing up, he has soft long fur and fully
| webbed feet. His sister looks like a runt black lab with short
| coarse fur, our boy is twice her size in weight and stature. I
| love our mutt!
| m12k wrote:
| A good rule of thumb is that the more a dog looks like a wolf,
| the less inbred it is.
| an9n wrote:
| Really? Alsatians have dreadful hip dysplasia, and look pretty
| wolfy.
| notyourwork wrote:
| Most rules have exceptions and edge cases.
| moralestapia wrote:
| Is there a pair of dog breeds who is so different from each other
| such that no offspring is possible between them?
| pueblito wrote:
| Not at all. Domestic dogs, coyotes and wolves can all breed
| together.
| moralestapia wrote:
| Nice! Thanks!
| smt88 wrote:
| I don't know if this counts, but a lot of bulldog-like dogs
| can't give live birth because they're so deformed and
| unnatural. They can only give birth by C-section.
| alistairSH wrote:
| Genetically, they should all be able to interbreed, also with
| wolves and coyotes.
|
| However, there are quite a few breeds that are known to have
| breeding and birthing problems. Some unable to properly mount
| each other and breed. Others with hips too small to properly
| birth and need close to 100% C-section delivery. I can imagine
| these problems could be exacerbated by attempts to breed with
| other larger breeds.
| bitxbitxbitcoin wrote:
| Yes. The pairing would probably be a male from a bigger breed
| and a bulldog bitch as the latter often can't give birth
| without a C section. So, sans technology, I can imagine there
| are at least a few pairs where offspring wouldn't happen.
| de_keyboard wrote:
| I find the idea of purposefully breeding dogs with short legs,
| stubby noses, etc. repulsive. Why do people do it? Wouldn't they
| prefer a pet without health issues?
| tonystubblebine wrote:
| I resent the idea of some third party organization setting the
| standard for whether my dogs are an official breed or not. So
| I've been making up breeds whenever people ask. My current dog,
| Eloise, is fairly obviously a mutt with a lot of St. Bernard and
| a lot of Great Pyrenees. So when people ask I say, "Oh, she's a
| new breed that people are calling St. Pyrenees. Her ancestors
| included some Great Pyrenees and some St. Bernard" By people I
| mean me.
| an1sotropy wrote:
| This is a great! We have a rescue dog picked off the streets of
| Stewart, FL (near West Palm Beach), so I say "oh he's a West
| Palm Beach Itinerant". People who take breeds seriously get
| confused, everyone else has a laugh.
| bigmattystyles wrote:
| Isn't there a known phenomenon where a species has been
| inbreeding for so long that they've selected out defects caused
| by inbreeding via natural selection? I thought I had heard that
| about lab mice, but I can't find info about it.
| JadoJodo wrote:
| I've often wondered why breeders don't do more cross-breeding
| across areas. Travel time aside, I think it would be a good
| investment into what is literally a business. e.g. If I'm a
| Border Collie breeder in Nevada, I could meet up with another
| Border Collie breeder in Arizona or Idaho and do an "exchange".
| While this does water down the lines, as each breed is probably
| generally in the top-tier form of whatever they've been bred for
| the past X00 years, I think a little genetic diversity would go a
| long way to help with these issues.
|
| Perhaps I'm just naive and this is what happens already, but I
| feel like anytime that I've been on a dog breeder's website, it's
| just 5-10 males, 10-30 females, and their resulting litters.
| hycaria wrote:
| This happens. Mostly buying fresh blood from overseas in my
| (European) experience. Like Maine coons from Russia, bull
| terriers from Australia ... It's more rare in the same country
| (where they could just buy sperm). Sometimes they just use a
| fellow breeders (and friend I suppose) male for a few litters.
| drakonka wrote:
| I think the problem for now is more pronounced with dogs than
| cats, but I just checked my Maine Coon breeder's site. Out of
| their two current litters, only one is from one of their own
| cats; two are from other breeders in the same country, and one
| is from Holland. On their planned litter page, only two cats
| out of six are from their own lines. The rest are from other
| Swedish lines, Holland, and Italy. I think responsible breeders
| do already do this. I worry that as cat breeding progresses,
| standards will slip like they have with so many dog breeds.
| It's already started with some breeds.
| einarfd wrote:
| The Norwegian Society for Protection of Animals is actually
| bringing a case on bad breeding to the courts in Norway
| (https://www.dyrebeskyttelsen.no/2020/11/23/norway-to-
| decide-...), its going to be interesting to see how that works
| out. If we are lucky, we might get some more sane dog breeding,
| and healthier dogs out of it.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| I find these answers (mostly) refreshingly free of the Dog Rescue
| Nazis, who seem to troll anyone who mentions dogs in any context.
| Many of them operate "breed rescue groups." These groups are
| usually 501(c)(3) organizations and pay their chief officers a
| salary, which you can check on their IRS form 990.
|
| * <Rant warning> *
|
| These groups come to the public animal shelters at opening time
| and claim any dog of their preferred breed, before any of the
| public gets a chance at them. Or maybe the shelter staff calls
| _them_. The end result when I was looking for a dog was that the
| shelters have nothing but pit bulls and Chihuahuas, and the dogs
| that the public prefers are all marked "reserved" or just gone.
|
| You can go to these innumerable rescue groups and fill out their
| four-page questionnaire, which they all has their own version of,
| all almost exactly the same. Then they apply their own ideas
| about who should have a dog and who shouldn't. Maybe they send
| someone out to look at your house & yard. I met someone at the
| dog park who'd had dogs all their lives, and they were rejected
| because their backyard fence wasn't high enough. More likely,
| "your" dog isn't available anymore.
|
| There is a Survivor Bias happening in all these happy stories
| about the wonderful dog someone got from a rescue group. You
| never read about all the dogs with terrible behavior problems
| that got returned to the shelter; the ones whose personalities
| were irretrievably ruined by abuse in their puppyhood.
|
| So the question is: who appointed these people to be gatekeepers?
| And why are we all subsidizing their hobby?
|
| What did I do, by the way? I went to a Labrador breeder, who
| questioned me closely on my situation. The puppies are cared for
| a family with children, which gave them the socialization every
| puppy needs. And I _know_ my dog 's never had anything but love
| and kindness, something you definitely do not know with a rescue.
|
| * <Rant warning/> *
| clusterhacks wrote:
| Interesting rant - I have been glancing at shelters in my area
| over the last year and have been confused that it is almost
| entirely pit bulls and pit mixes. I thought maybe those types
| of dogs were just all people were into these days. I _never_
| see puppies available . . .
|
| I'm leaning towards doing exactly what you did for a new pup -
| finding a caring family with a very small breeding program that
| focuses on socialization and a little selectivity in who they
| will provide pups.
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| > The end result when I was looking for a dog was that the
| shelters have nothing but pit bulls and Chihuahuas, and the
| dogs that the public prefers are all marked "reserved" or just
| gone.
|
| This is so frustrating! I'm currently looking for a dog, and
| the shelters near me have a few special needs dogs, a few "lab
| mixes" or "shepherd mixes" that are obviously Staffordshire
| terriers that happened to get lucky by having long noses and
| slightly less boxy heads than the average 'mix', but they
| constantly have trucks of pit bulls and Chihuahuas arriving
| from Texas and Louisiana and Mississippi.
|
| Pre-COVID, I went to a pet expo and met a staggering number of
| these breed rescue groups. There are no Goldens at any
| shelters, but there's a golden rescue. No Weimaraners at any
| shelters, but there's a weim rescue. No dalmatians, but there's
| a dalmatian rescue. No greyhounds, but there's a greyhound
| rescue. No huskies, but there's a husky rescue. There are no
| pit bull rescues, I'm guessing because they'd be accused of
| operating a fighting ring, and if they tried to snap up every
| dog that matched their requirements they'd be inundated with
| ten thousand dogs.
|
| Those breeds don't need rescuing, they get snapped up from the
| shelters faster than I can hit "F5", probably because (as you
| said) shelter intake staff are calling the breed rescue groups
| before even listing the dogs.
|
| I don't think I'm a pitbull bigot, but I'd like an actual
| choice in adopting a dog, and I don't want to pay someone a
| thousand dollars for the privilege of 'rescuing' it. It's
| almost enough to push someone away from the shelters to buy
| from a backyard breeder...
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Thanks, I expected a flood of condemnations!
|
| The term "backyard breeder" is just one step up in snobbery
| from "trailer trash."
|
| I got my two cats from families that could be called backyard
| breeders. To me, that meant that children played with the
| kittens, which is especially crucial to cats.
|
| So if you want a golden (fantastic dogs, btw!), there are
| lots of breeders. You might have to drive for a few hours to
| find one. I drove two hours for my Lab breeder.
| pxc wrote:
| > The term "backyard breeder" is just one step up in
| snobbery from "trailer trash."
|
| The term is often used to refer to people running extremely
| sketchy for-profit operations (basically very small scale
| puppy mills). Operations like that often falsely present
| themselves as the more innocent 'oops my grandma's dog and
| my dog bred one time because we didn't know hers wasn't
| fixed' type.
|
| Traditional breeders have all kinds of other problems. Imo
| there's not really any great way to get a puppy, ethically
| speaking
| AlbertCory wrote:
| > The term is often used to refer to people running
| extremely sketchy for-profit operations
|
| Yeah, no question. There are also people, like the family
| I got my first cat from, that like to breed animals and
| do their best to be kind to them. Perhaps some term that
| doesn't conflate the two groups would be preferable.
| quartz wrote:
| I uh... I don't think that was a condemnation at all?
| AlbertCory wrote:
| I uh... I didn't say it was, but I guess you could
| legitimately read it that way.
|
| I meant "I expected a flood of condemnations, but this is
| nice." or words to that effect.
| smorgusofborg wrote:
| I find it a bit ironic that you and the OP seem to be saying
| these rescue groups work for their actual goal and the goal
| of the shelter.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| What do you think the "goal of the shelter" is? To just
| move as many dogs out as possible, or to serve the public
| by giving them fair access to dogs others don't want? Those
| are subtly different.
| smorgusofborg wrote:
| Successfully performing an ethical responsibility to
| house dogs in a good situation inherently deprioritizes
| every member of the the public getting a great choice in
| free dogs. That is a successful supply side shortage
| which is the goal.
|
| I don't see how I could ethically agree that people's
| rights to get the dog they want through a rescue shelter
| exists and is more important to a shelter than the
| welfare of the dogs placed in it's care.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Sorry, but you're resorting to word salad here. "The
| welfare of the dogs placed in it's [sic] care" is not at
| issue, as I'll demonstrate:
|
| Let's say a highly desirable dog, say a beautiful young
| Golden Retriever, is brought to the shelter, and further,
| let's suppose the shelter euthanizes all dogs after two
| weeks.
|
| Normally, a member of the public would adopt this dog
| within a day or less. They're a very popular breed. How
| is "the welfare of the dogs placed in its care" enhanced
| by the Golden Rescue group taking it and deciding for
| themselves who should have it? (If the foster person
| doesn't keep it for themselves, which often happens.)
|
| Let's say the shelter has an agreement with them: "if a
| Golden is slated for euthanasia within two days, you may
| take it." That seems fair to me.
|
| So the only argument you're left with is "the Rescue
| group will do a better job of choosing its home." Not
| proven and doubtful, sorry. Those people are volunteers
| with no training and no accountability. The shelter is
| going to be at least as good.
| pxc wrote:
| Rescues typically house their dogs in foster homes rather
| than shared kennels, and are more likely to engage in
| rehabilitation and training than shelters are. Dogs at
| breed rescues generally get way more individual attention
| and care.
|
| > the only argument you're left with is "the Rescue group
| will do a better job of choosing its home." Not proven
| and doubtful, sorry. Those people are volunteers with no
| training and no accountability. The shelter is going to
| be at least as good.
|
| Shelters don't generally attempt vetting adopters to the
| same degree as rescues do, which is much of the source of
| annoyance with breed rescues that started this thread.
| Shelters are not going to be 'at least as good' at things
| they're not even attempting to do.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| As for the foster homes: point taken. Although it's
| irrelevant if the dog is so desirable that someone adopts
| it right away. Which is the case we're talking about here
| after all.
|
| As for your comment about shelters: you're just plain
| wrong about that. There's a stereotype that they're about
| as diligent as the DMV. Wrong. Considering the breed
| rescue people are mostly unpaid volunteers who don't
| stick with it very long, it's probably a wash.
| todd8 wrote:
| From the featured article:
|
| > The average inbreeding based on genetic analysis across 227
| breeds was close to 25%, or the equivalent of sharing the same
| genetic material with a full sibling
|
| Full siblings would actual share approximately 50%.
| zdw wrote:
| It's been a while since I took biology, but doesn't this depend
| on the genders of the siblings?
|
| Two male brothers have XY, and the Y would have to be shared
| with the father, and same with two sisters (X from father), but
| a brother and sister would get a minimum of 50% different as
| the X and Y from the father would be different?
| mbreese wrote:
| In humans, y is so small as to be insignificant in these
| terms. ChrX is much larger. Also, the combination of the
| remaining chr1-22 are much larger than chrX by itself, so
| these numbers don't factor in as much as you'd think.
|
| Rough scale example:
| XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX YY
| ErikVandeWater wrote:
| Off topic, but I very much enjoy the creativity you used to
| explain the relative size of the chromosomes.
| 323 wrote:
| I vaguely remember reading that if you randomly bred dogs they
| slowly revert back to the "original" kind (strays). Is that true?
| takk309 wrote:
| That does bring up a good question, if one were to breed dogs
| at random from a very large pool of dogs, how many generations
| would it take to revert to a wolf-like dog? Of course some care
| would be needed to ensure the dogs were a compatible size, that
| is no St. Bernards crossed with corgis. For the sake of
| argument let's say 1,000 randomly selected medium (30 to 70
| pounds) dogs as the initial pool and taking care to avoid
| inbreeding at least 5 generations back.
| Frost1x wrote:
| Do you perhaps mean wolves by strays? If so,, I don't think
| that's how natural evolution works, otherwise humans might
| start looking like Homo erectus.
|
| The main distinction between an actual 'stray' dog and a
| domestic dog is environmental, being around humans and so on
| and less to do with genetics.
|
| If you let dogs breed freely they'd probably still clump into
| sets of similar genetic and physical traits based on time and
| location (and their prior genetics).
| whalesalad wrote:
| Wish people were more mindful of this in real life. All these
| dogs with short snouts have terrible problems breathing when they
| get older (and many when they are young).
|
| I will have GSD's from a working line for the rest of my life.
| clusterhacks wrote:
| Totally agree re:short snout problems. I was shocked recently
| to see several pictures of short-nosed Rottweilers with what
| looks like a tendency to have noses that seem to be trending in
| pug-like direction.
|
| I mean, I hadn't really been keeping up with the breed, but I
| am curious what the heck people are thinking . . .
|
| OTOH, I may be done with working line shepherds for the rest of
| my life. But enjoy!
| otabdeveloper4 wrote:
| "Studies show water is wet".
| tharne wrote:
| I think this is one of those studies where you didn't really need
| to do a study.
| wheybags wrote:
| New study shows most water is wet
| pilsetnieks wrote:
| There is, however, a significant percentage of it in dry or
| gaseous form.
| Sohcahtoa82 wrote:
| You got me thinking now...
|
| How many chemicals/materials have different names depending
| on their state of matter, versus just having an adjective
| prepended?
|
| When ice melts, it's called water. But when steel melts,
| it's just called molten steel.
| gwern wrote:
| No, this is important. There are a lot of people who will tell
| you that 'selective breeding doesn't work and always backfires,
| because look how unhealthy some dog breeds are'.
|
| This study is part of the evidence-base showing that that is
| wrong: those dog breeds are unhealthy because they are
| _incredibly inbred_ with effective population sizes so small
| you may be able to count them on two hands.
|
| The bulldogs will always be unhealthy to some degree because
| those faces are just not a good idea, but even there some
| bulldog breeds are far sicklier than others, and it's due to
| the inbreeding, and when you know that, you know how to improve
| them. This is important for stuff like agricultural breeding:
| the problems aren't inevitable, and are caused by specific
| mistakes, like starting with too few individuals, closing the
| studbook prematurely, and not outcrossing.
| lallysingh wrote:
| It's useful to measure things even if we already know that
| they're common. Numbers tell a story that beliefs cannot.
| psyc wrote:
| I feel the same about a great many studies, but normally would
| never say so here. What if people found out I was tainted in my
| epistemologies?
| sktrdie wrote:
| What I find interesting is that dogs are way better adapt at
| living a "city life" or an "apartment life" than we ever will be
| (unless we start breeding for those traits ourselves). People
| think "ah dogs are animals and should live in nature and not in
| closed doors of a city apartment". Nope, from a genetic point of
| view some dogs are way more naturally fit to live indoors (look
| at Maltese for instance who's bread to be a lap dog).
|
| I also wonder: doesn't the genetic diversity between different
| breeds help account with defeating illness? What I mean is that
| if some sort of disease pops up it might kill a % of breeds, but
| another % might survive because, well, they're a different breed
| with a trait that helped defeat that disease.
|
| Us humans on the other hand have stopped evolving and are quite
| genetically the same (much more similar than dogs). So from that
| perspective I wonder whether a disease would be much more
| dangerous for us & whether actual breeding might be good overall
| for their species.
|
| Of course inbreeding is a separate issue that hurts the life of
| the individual. But our apparent need to want different kind of
| dogs might actually end up saving their species in a doomsday
| scenario.
| bserge wrote:
| It's the complete opposite as far as I know, genetic diversity
| makes animals _more resistant_ to diseases.
|
| Humans haven't stopped evolving, what the fuck. We're
| healthier, smarter, stronger than ever thanks in part to easy
| access to a massive genetic pool.
| dfsegoat wrote:
| > What I find interesting is that dogs are way better adapt at
| living a "city life" or an "apartment life"
|
| This is certainly not the case with some of the herding /
| working dog breeds (GSD, Malinois etc) - it is borderline cruel
| keeping them in an apartment in some cases, and dangerous in
| others.
|
| I lived with a presa canario for a year in an apartment
| (roommates dog) - it was not a good situation for the dog or
| anyone else. After I moved out, I learned the dog attacked
| someone and was euthanized.
| ed_balls wrote:
| > it is borderline cruel keeping them in an apartment in some
| cases
|
| I don't think this is true. You can have a husky in a flat,
| but have to go for a run every morning.
|
| I have a German Shepard. She goes for 3 walks a day and a lot
| of weekend trips. The flat is just a kennel.
| a-saleh wrote:
| I think 'borderline cruel/dangerous' is overstating it (I do
| live in an 1 bedroom appt with 2 BOC and 1 BOM), but it
| certainly is true that if you have a working dog, you need to
| give it work. And place to expunge energy.
|
| My partner does several dog-sports, and it seems that if you
| have on avg 30-90m training a day over the week, most of the
| day your dogs will just be happily tired and lounge around
| and sleep.
|
| Or if she has more lenient training shedule, we do take them
| to run around in a field just outside of city like every two
| days.
|
| The misconception is, that if you give a working dog big
| enough yard next to your house, it will be happy, but in
| reality you still need to train and work with it. If I were
| to exagerate, this kind of psychological neglect too can be
| borderline cruel and sometimes dangerous.
|
| The bad thing is, even the owners might not realize. I heard
| several stories along the lines of "Our bordercolie is well
| fed, and well behaved, and has access to run around in a
| large garden, and take her with us every weekend on a hike,
| and then bites our friends child into her leg when the she
| tried to run away?" ... well, yeah, I am not surprised that a
| _shepherd_ dog that isn 't well trained and never worked
| would do something stupid like that.
|
| My point probably is, that even in the sad story of the hard-
| to-manage presa canario, yeah, having it in an appartment
| didnSSt make things easier, but I wouldn't see it as the
| primary problem.
| sktrdie wrote:
| Certainly makes sense we also breed in the opposite
| direction. Where they are better fit to be outdoors. Still I
| would argue dogs have a certain adaptation to living indoors
| that was bread into them artificially rather than naturally.
| Herd dogs still relied on the food/shelter from the owner.
| clusterhacks wrote:
| I had a Malinois for 15.5 years. She was a wonderful dog in
| most respects but frankly required a significant amount of
| management despite years of training and socialization on top
| of a large fenced yard and ample daily exercise.
|
| I would heavily caution people to deeply consider what owning
| high-drive and super-reactive dogs actually means in day-to-
| day life. Dogs with these temperaments do have wonderful (and
| fun) qualities but simply require specialized environments
| and handling.
| notyourwork wrote:
| > This is certainly not the case with some of the herding /
| working dog breeds (GSD, Malinois etc) - it is borderline
| cruel keeping them in an apartment in some cases, and
| dangerous in others.
|
| 100%, I live in a city high rise. I see too many anxious dogs
| in that category that are "toys" to the owner and do not get
| sufficient exercise and mental stimulation. I love the
| beligan malinois breed but realize I have a lifestyle today
| that prevents me from owning one. Its similar to fish and
| aquarium sizes in many ways.
| bojangleslover wrote:
| Inbred is measurable with the coefficient of inbreeding. But to
| claim a dog is X% golden retriever requires you to define a
| single dog as THE "golden retriever", or the reference genome.
| Who gets to set the reference genome?
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| Kind of the definition of a 'dog breed'?
| cleandreams wrote:
| This is distressing but not surprising. What is aggravating is
| that sometimes this is not even unintentional. For cats, there is
| the Scottish Fold. The very thing that makes them considered cute
| is a painful disease. The perpetuation of this breed is really a
| comment on human... what? Vanity? Cruelty? It's disgusting.
|
| This from an Australian animal welfare group
| https://kb.rspca.org.au/knowledge-base/what-are-the-health-p...
|
| The Scottish Fold breed of cat is a very popular pet in the USA,
| due to its affectionate and gentle nature and distinctive
| appearance. These cats have flattened ears that fold forward and
| downward, sitting like a cap and giving the quaint look of an
| owl. This ear fold is the result of a natural genetic mutation
| first observed in a farm kitten in Scotland in 1961. The tightly
| folded ears do not appear to be any more prone to infections than
| those of cats with upright ears. However, this unique ear shape
| is caused by an underlying defect in the formation of cartilage,
| which would normally retain the ears in a normal shape.
|
| This inherited cartilage defect (also known as Scottish Fold
| disease, or Osteochondrodysplasia) causes other deformities
| throughout the body and is a dominant trait, meaning all kittens
| in the litter will be affected. The disease is evident on x-rays
| of cats from as young as 7 weeks of age. Serious abnormalities in
| joints and bone growth lead to arthritis (painful, swollen
| joints), short, abnormally thick and inflexible tails, spinal
| abnormalities and short, stiff legs. The welfare impacts are
| severe in terms of pain and inability to perform natural
| behaviours, as these cats can be lame, walk with an abnormal
| gait, can be reluctant to engage in normal movements such as
| walking or jumping, and can even become completely crippled.
|
| There is no cure for this progressive condition. Cats who develop
| arthritis need long term pain relief, which can have undesirable
| side effects, and dietary supplements to slow its development. In
| a small number of cases, surgery or radiotherapy has been
| effective in slowing the progression of the disease. Those with
| severe disease are often suffering immensely and require
| euthanasia, sometimes early in life.
|
| Due to the crippling deformities evident in this breed, it was
| excluded from the Cat Fancy of Great Britain as a recognised
| breed in 1974 and was also banned by the Federation
| Internationale Feline. Breeders in the USA persisted...
| olliej wrote:
| Despite the headline this is only talking about purebreds, not
| mutts, which actually make up the bulk of dogs
| rubyist5eva wrote:
| I though this was common knowledge? This is why I prefer "mutts"
| myself.
| helpfulmandrill wrote:
| Isn't that how you get a dog breed?
| h2odragon wrote:
| Line breeding is almost necessary for trait stabilization, yes.
| Lots of culls. When the "breed standards" market values looks
| over anything else for 50yr+, you get... what we got now.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| Side note: you can get a pretty robust genetic panels (health +
| breed) for dogs for about $150 now.
|
| We did it recently on two of our pups (both mutts), and it was
| neat seeing the various possible lineages.
|
| Our tiny terrier / beagle mix came back with >10% Chow & Siberian
| Husky. Never would have guessed that!
|
| https://embarkvet.com/
| tata71 wrote:
| Time to do this would be before you acquired the dog, no?
| ethbr0 wrote:
| Well, if you're adopting from a shelter, chances are the
| genetics are pretty varied.
| NDizzle wrote:
| Hopefully less inbreeding is one of the positive outcomes of the
| current "designer mutt" fad. I was thinking about this the other
| day actually...
| latchkey wrote:
| This should be the top comment. I don't fault people who do get
| designer dogs, but I just got a "covid rescue" dog... a 5 year
| old something or another and given all the amazing dogs that
| need happy homes, I can't imagine buying a specially bred dog.
| green-eclipse wrote:
| This is interesting, but not exactly news. Has been known for
| decades.
| sliken wrote:
| Indeed, a major contributor is the AKC who rates breeds on
| arbitrary characteristics like shoulder height and color
| instead of overall fitness. So you end up with dogs with
| terrible hips, cancer, spine problems, breathing problems, etc
| but have the right color hair.
| azemetre wrote:
| I do think it's news because some breeds suffer terribly at the
| end of their life, like golden retrieves typically getting
| cancer at 60% rates. [1] Would you get a golden retriever if
| you knew that at 7 years-old it's very likely to get a brain
| tumor?
|
| The same can be said for many breeds that suffer from breathing
| problems (pugs) or spinal issues (german shepherds) because
| someone decided that a german shepard should have a certain
| angle arc in its back because it was "visually" pleasing.
|
| It's honestly disgusting, the UK kennel club bares the majority
| of this suffering because they somehow declared themselves the
| defacto authority figure during the late 1880s.
|
| [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/why-do-so-many-golden-
| retriever...
| Frost1x wrote:
| At some period of human history, breeding for some traits
| probably made sense, functionally. Dogs that could hunt well
| or track other animals for you all made sense in a survival
| situation.
|
| The mess we got into was when we started this whole selective
| genetic manipulation based on visual appearances and at the
| cost of their health. As pets, to me, it doesn't make a lot
| of sense to do all this nonsense selective breeding and
| inbreeding that perpetuates clear genetic issues that would
| resolve with a bit natural diversity. I never want to have a
| 'pure' bred dog both in principle against the idea and
| because more diversity means my pet has a better chance of
| moving away from bad generic traits or moving their pups into
| that direction (and a potentially longer, healthier life).
|
| My sibling owned a pug at one point when I was young and she
| was incredibly cute and sweet but at a cost to her health.
| Her facial wrinkle folds were prone to bacterial infection
| and had to be cleaned regularly, she suffered a lot of food
| allergies, had clear breathing problems, but fortunately
| didn't suffer from any sort of eye problems pugs are prone
| to. She ultimately died of cancer.
|
| I'll take rescue pets which are most often not selectively
| bred any day over encouraging the breeding nonsense. All of
| my rescue pets have lived long and healthy lives into old age
| with almost no issues, just by avoiding inbreeding for at
| least one level of lineage.
| bsder wrote:
| > Would you get a golden retriever if you knew that at 7
| years-old it's very likely to get a brain tumor?
|
| Dogs have a lifespan. It's shorter than ours. It's sad, but
| it simply is.
|
| Scottish terriers seem to get cancers around 10-12 years. My
| dog died at 11 of liver cancer. A brother died of a stomach
| cancer similarly. The mother died of a brain cancer at about
| the same age.
|
| Was the joy and happiness brought by those dogs not worth it
| simply because their lifespan wasn't longer?
| azemetre wrote:
| The joy and happiness is purely at the expense of unethical
| practices tho, that is my issue. These are living
| empathetic creatures, not designer fashion pieces (which is
| often what pure breeds are selected to emulate). There's no
| reason why you couldn't bread a healthy retriever dog, yes
| it may not look exactly like the current iteration of a
| golden retriever but it will live a life that is less
| likely to be purposely afflicted with pain or suffering.
|
| I've only owned mixed dogs and they've all lived extremely
| health lives with zero joint, spine, breathing, or jaw
| issues.
| krona wrote:
| The UK kennel club allows you to calculate the inbreeding
| coefficient for either a registered (pedigree) dog or for future
| puppies of two potential mates:
|
| https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/search/inbreeding-co-effici...
|
| This kind of information is used by responsible breeders and
| buyers, thus my dachshund has 0% inbreeding going back 5
| generations.
| mgarfias wrote:
| the problem with these calculations is that they're based on
| pedigree, not genetics. If you're only studying 3-5 generations
| of pedigree, the COI might look REALLY good, but the animal can
| still be a genetic mess because those 3-5 generations all had a
| common (or multiple common) ancestors in generations 6-7.
| noselasd wrote:
| The point is though that most dog breeds are already too inbred
| .
|
| I.e. even if your particular dog isn't inbred according to some
| particular measure - the entire dog breed are already way too
| much inbred and have very little genetic diversite. Leading up
| to most dogs of that breed having multiple deficits.
|
| (I don't know if that applies to dachshounds though - in
| general it applies less to dog breeds used for utility)
| bArray wrote:
| This is well known. Sometimes people breed the grandfather with
| the bitch or even the father. I think 'Pedigree certificates' has
| a lot to answer for in this regard. It doesn't encourage any kind
| of genetic diversity and people are actively discouraged and
| punished for trying to introduce new blood into lines. Another
| group to blame are 'puppy farms', people who breed merely to make
| money and take no responsibility for the genetic mess they make.
|
| I have a family member that breeds dogs quite seriously - one of
| their goals is to reintroduce good health traits back into the
| (working) breeds and undo the awful effects of inbreeding.
| Sometimes this involves reading the breeders notes from over a
| hundred years ago and trying to reproduce the same result (it's
| not easy). Often it seems to be enough to introduce a few closely
| related healthy breeds and after three or so generations you can
| get back to something healthier and a good representative of that
| breed.
|
| There are a few breeds that are in desperate need of serious
| dedication - namely short-nose breeds (i.e. Pugs, British
| Bulldogs, etc). Pugs are by far the worse I've encountered in
| terms of physical health defects, a significant number of Pug
| puppies are culled early on due to spine defects of breathing
| issues. Those that end up getting sold are almost guaranteed to
| end up with breathing issues.
|
| One of the healthier dogs you can own tends to be a mid-sized
| Mutt (cross-breed). From annecdata, I've found that a Bulldog
| (typically strong working dogs, dumb but loyal) crossed with
| something smarter but mid-sized tends to yield good temperament,
| long-life dogs with average intelligence (which is a good thing
| [+]).
|
| [+] Generally you want your dog to be smart enough to read your
| queues and work around you, but not so smart that it's getting
| bored or trying to figure out how to escape.
| wdb wrote:
| Is there a place to find which breeds are most inbred? I am
| wondering what the status of the Beagle is
| matwood wrote:
| Agree with everything you just said. My wife and I (mainly her)
| rescue French Bulldogs. They are popular so a lot of people get
| them without realizing all the health issues, then give them up
| once they realize the money and work involved. 2/3 of our
| current rescues have had the IVDD (spinal) surgery and are
| doing fine. One has also had palette surgery in an attempt to
| open her airway a bit more. None of them should be walked if
| it's > 75F.
|
| We had another die from a ruptured spine and another die in my
| arms from a massive heart attack at 2 years old b/c of a
| genetic heart defect.
|
| Obviously the rescues spay/neuter any dog that comes in. I wish
| I knew of a better solution, but we do what we can to help
| these animals since we have the means.
| Quarrelsome wrote:
| > Generally you want your dog to be smart enough to read your
| queues and work around you
|
| Great write up. Btw, in that context you want "cue" instead of
| "queue".
| mgarfias wrote:
| In general terms I agree. FWIW, my wife breeds white Swiss
| shepherds, and very much has the health of her animals in mind
| when she plans a litter. She'll cull (as in remove from her
| program to a pet home, not take out back and shoot) dogs that
| don't measure up - either temperament wise, genetics (she tests
| every dog she keeps using optimal selection's tests), other
| other traits - one of our fave bitches had to have elbow
| surgery due to a developmental defect that left an unattached
| piece in her joint. She was spayed.
|
| like everything to do with people, there are fads, and then bad
| things happen due to those fads that you don't see for YEARS.
| The shiloh shepherds found they had a genetic heart defect, and
| it was traced back to a single stud used too much as he was
| popular.
|
| I forgot where else I was going with this, but I mostly agree
| with the parent. OH, I know, the "new blood" thing. Most of the
| worlds kennel clubs have a process for bringing new blood in,
| where you bring in a dog that LOOKS like your breed, and meets
| the breed standard. You give it a registration, and its
| attached to the studbooks as an addendum. Keep breeding with
| your fully registered dogs until the progeny's three gen
| pedigree is filled with pure breds and you have a fully
| registered dog. Its not perfect, but at least its there as an
| option.
| thih9 wrote:
| > not so smart that it's getting bored or trying to figure out
| how to escape.
|
| This could be understood as if the most intelligent dogs were
| always bored or trying to escape. To clarify: intelligent dogs
| do need more stimulation, this is very true. But as long as
| they get it, they're happy.
| a-saleh wrote:
| I discussed this with my partner that takes her hobby of dog-
| training very seriously (like, we live with three dogs, and
| she sometimes does payed woroshops, e.t.c) that Border Colies
| are often considered to be the most intelligent dogs, but
| that might be mostly a side-product of breeding them to be
| eager to please.
|
| In theory many other breeds could be more intelligent, but
| border collie is the one most likely to be excited to learn
| how to be good at the tests we give the dogs.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| The Border Collie is indeed intelligent. It is
| overwhelmingly the sheepdog preferred by Welsh shepherds.
| It is also loyal, good-natured, and pretty safe around
| children. This breed doesn't suffer health problems due to
| inbreeding, because it isn't a (UK) Kennel Club breed;
| there's no such thing as a "pedigree" Border Collie in the
| UK.
| Vetch wrote:
| Yeah, from what I've read Collies are a smarter breed and
| also vary in intelligence amongst themselves. High
| obedience has been shown to at times be counter to good
| test performance as it means lower curiosity, higher
| dependence on humans and lower problem solving
| persistence. Collies are curious, enjoy learning and
| having a job but can be chaotic when bored, which is
| markedly different from incurious obedience.
|
| > This breed doesn't suffer health problems due to
| inbreeding, because it isn't a (UK) Kennel Club breed
|
| The paper aligns with what you say, it remarks that
| Collies are highly inbred but not suffering that much
| from it. Can you explain the significance of not being a
| Kennel Club breed? Can that be the whole story, though?
|
| > There were interesting exceptions to the correlation of
| inbreeding and health. The Border terrier, Basenji,
| Collie, and English setter breeds have high inbreeding
| but low morbidity. Likewise, the Malinois, Pomeranian and
| Russian Tsvetnaya Bolonka (Russian Toy) have lower
| inbreeding and high morbidity. These example breeds are
| neither brachycephalic nor particularly known for extreme
| morphologies.
|
| > In the case of healthy breeds with high inbreeding, it
| may be possible that these breeds have been purged of
| deleterious alleles as has happened with inbred mouse
| strains
|
| > In the opposite situation, the recorded morbidities
| could be high allele frequency Mendelian diseases or
| potentially conditions linked to phenotypes under
| selection in the breed. These discrepancies could also
| exist due to population differences between the insurance
| data and the inbreeding data.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| > Can you explain the significance of not being a Kennel
| Club breed?
|
| Well, the Kennel Club rates breeds in terms of their
| conformance to "spec", which is a lot about appearance.
| Inevitably, breeders breed to the spec. Border Collies
| aren't bred to any spec. (Collies are a different breed,
| which I believe _is_ rated by the Kennel Club)
| spfzero wrote:
| That's also true for English Sheppards; they are bred for
| temperament, not conformance to appearance rules. So they
| don't all look identical, but they are great companions
| (and good at herding).
| retrac wrote:
| It's my experience that a dog's tendency to wander or want to
| escape has only a little to do with its intelligence. (Their
| _ability_ to effect an escape is a different matter.) I think
| it 's partly just a personality trait. I've met stupid,
| misanthropic chihuahuas that won't wander and intelligent,
| deeply loyal huskies that chase after everything they can
| see.
| nradov wrote:
| Yes those seem to be mostly independent traits. Portuguese
| Water Dogs are generally rated above average for
| intelligence but they have a natural instinct to stay close
| to their owners and don't tend to run away.
| etempleton wrote:
| We tend to measure a dog's intelligence by obedience and
| trainability, but dogs like huskies and beagles do not
| follow that rule. There is a reason there are always
| beagles readily available for adoption.
|
| My beagle growing up extremely smart--he knew every trick
| you can think of; he could remember specific objects by
| name; track someone's scent in an instant if you said find
| XXX; and seemed at times to understand whole sentences.
| Unfortunately, he also was stubborn, independent, and had
| an insatiable drive to follow scents.
| Jagerbizzle wrote:
| Our goldendoodle sounds very similar to this. She's great
| at "go see XYZ" or "go get ABC", knows all the party
| tricks, and will play fetch endlessly without ever
| wandering off no matter how far I throw the ball.
|
| If she ever happens to see a squirrel or a chipmunk
| however she'll try to rip the leash off of your arm; if
| she's ever off-leash and sees a critter like this you can
| throw the hours of trained recall out the window.
| Fortunately this has never happened near traffic or a
| cliff.
| monkmartinez wrote:
| Same experience.
|
| Our goldendoodle is fantastic. Our neighbors can't
| believe she just chills with us in the front yard without
| a leash. They can't let their dogo out of the house
| without a fence or leash. She only barks once in a blue
| moon and everyone in the house is on immediate high alert
| when she does. Generally, its salesperson walking up the
| front driveway. She doesn't bark at UPS/Fedex any
| longer... which is good this time of year.
|
| I run her every other day a few miles and she is right
| with me, generally off leash. When she sees a lizard tho,
| its game over. I have to stop and physically pull her off
| the bush she is buried in to get the lizard. She is very
| food motivated and the word "treat" is spelled out in our
| house because she will not leave you alone until she gets
| something if she hears that word.
|
| My only complaint is grooming. To do it properly, I've
| been told requires brushing her everyday. Not happening.
| I have tried to do it 3 times a week... it takes like two
| hours and is completely exhausting. We just get her
| shaved every two months or so.
| vgeek wrote:
| I have a corgi/beagle mix, so she loves to smell and
| doesn't have to crane her neck as much as a standard
| beagle. She loves to smell _everything_ , so areas where
| other dogs have been are slow to traverse. She is smart
| and seems to understand commands, it is just a coin flip
| of if she will listen (or just give me a quick mopey
| look)-- especially if there is an interesting smell
| they're locked on to.
| verelo wrote:
| I've got a blue tick beagle (he's amazing:
| https://www.instagram.com/elvisrufflife), we recently had
| a friend up to our house in the woods and they had their
| dog run away from them on a walk the first morning they
| arrived. Over an hour later, i leashed up our beagle,
| started where their dog got lost by pointing at a few of
| her footprints and...away he went (on leash!). We
| followed a trail (that i could not see) for about an
| hour, i was convinced he was just tracking a deer or
| something unrelated. Eventually the trail lead to a road
| a few km away from the house where we met some other
| people walking their dog, i asked them if they had seen a
| black dog and they instantly responded with "Yes, we saw
| a dog 10 minutes ago".
|
| I knew he was smart, but it's next level impressive what
| he can track. Our dog has had no formal training , i got
| him as a rescue when he was about 18 months old. He can
| do all the standard tricks, and apparently track things?
| I'm certain he knew what i wanted him to do, it was an
| odd form of communication but he seemed very excited with
| the assignment he was tasked with.
|
| The kicker to this story is that our friends dog came
| back to our house all by itself about 5 hours later. We
| spotted it once during our hunt, but being a rescue
| street dog from Forida, she's pretty skittish and just
| ran away any time she was approach by another person.
| brianwawok wrote:
| As a owner of a smart and a dumb dog.. the smart dog is a lot
| lot lot lot more work. Dumb dogs make so much easier pets..
| vidanay wrote:
| Laughs in Australian Shepherd. Idk how, but my Aussie
| manages to be simultaneously smart and dumb.
| kemayo wrote:
| For sure -- you should only get a working-breed dog (which
| _tend_ to be the smarter ones as we view it) if you
| actively enjoy spending time on training with them.
|
| If your ideal dog experience is sitting on the couch with
| them keeping you company, well, there's other breeds for
| that. :D
|
| I have a pitbull/amstaff/boxer mutt, which is a pretty good
| balance on being smart enough to learn tricks quickly but
| still be kept happy with walks and toys. I'm staying well
| away from the border collies and Australian cattle dogs...
| [deleted]
| pimlottc wrote:
| > Generally you want your dog to be smart enough to read your
| queues and work around you
|
| I think you mean "cues" here.
|
| For reading queues, a rabbit is more popular.
| ok_dad wrote:
| > For reading queues, a rabbit is more popular.
|
| I chuckled and woke my wife, thanks a lot!
|
| Reference for those who don't get it:
| https://www.rabbitmq.com/
| dlkf wrote:
| You're saying my basset hound is inbred? I don't buy it.
| quickthrowman wrote:
| Buying or breeding purebred dogs is morally wrong, a dog should
| not be forced to endure a miserable existence for aesthetic
| reasons.
|
| Pugs are some of the most unfortunate, they have issues with
| their _eyeballs_ prolapsing and cannot breathe through their
| nose.
|
| All of it is disgusting, shame on anyone that breeds or owns
| purebreds. I'll give a pass to breeders of actual working dogs,
| but show dogs are a crime against nature.
| f6v wrote:
| Dog breeding is mostly a net-negative for the society. Kind of
| like jewelry and luxury cars.
| bluedevil2k wrote:
| What a negative and downright wrong thing to say. Dog owners
| are happier and healthier than non-dog owners.
|
| https://time.com/collection/guide-to-happiness/4870796/dog-o...
| hairofadog wrote:
| I'm not the person you're replying to, but: I love dogs, I
| have a dog, and I think dog breeding is a net evil. I wish it
| would stop.
|
| Edit: While it's admittedly over-the-top snarky, this video
| sums up my feelings nicely:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCv10_WvGxo
| rory wrote:
| There is an ethical version of breeding that would be good
| for society though (and I imagine this exists to some
| extent outside the mainstream mainstream). E.g. if a
| breeder decides "I want a hypoallergenic dog between 40 and
| 50 pounds with a calm demeanor who is otherwise maximally
| healthy" instead of worrying about the the nitpicky
| specifics of their appearance, that would be a benefit for
| society.
|
| It's more the culture of dog breeding and showing than the
| concept that's harmful.
| kcb wrote:
| Personally I just worry that the result would be all dogs
| being pitbull mixes.
| slothtrop wrote:
| What does that have to do with dog breeding? Add to the fact,
| there's more than one way to be healthier and happier.
| djsbs wrote:
| This seems like a judgement call from someone who doesn't
| understand any of the three topics and therefore sees only the
| negatives.
|
| As an example, dog breeding which I know least of the three
| topics, provided society (the object in your sentence) with
| very specific work dogs that have served society for centuries.
| Imagine the Inuit without their sled dogs.
|
| Jewelry and luxury cars are easier to justify, but Im so
| bewildered I'll just ask "what problem you can possibly have
| with luxury cars and jewelry?"
| artfulhippo wrote:
| Money spent on luxuries/social status signaling is money not
| given to reduce suffering. If you have any sense of empathy
| for the billions of people living with low incomes, it's
| obvious that luxury spending is resource misallocation.
| djsbs wrote:
| What's obvious is economic misunderstanding.
|
| The resources "misallocated" in luxury goods motivate and
| teach us to make better mass goods. The car industry is a
| great example. luxury vehicles have driven R&D that have
| made cars safer and cleaner (disc breaks, fuel injection).
| Tesla has put electric cars just within reach for all by
| charging rich people for what were (are?) bad cars with
| lots of status signing
|
| Jewelry is a form of art and of adding beauty to our
| everyday life. I will not apologize for the $80 pearl studs
| my girls wear, or my wife's shawl.
|
| Nor is it tenable that _money_ used on a luxury item
| represent resources taken away from the poor. The resources
| to make a Lexus or a Toyota are largely the same.
|
| Sure, I could buy a Nissan (btw, I drive a six year old Kia
| and a used base manual 2013 Golf) and send a cheque to
| Africa. But I'll raise you - you can drop every expenditure
| you have except basic needs and send the money to Africa.
| Like my ethic professor pointed out, that $5 beer is five
| child-days.
|
| Unless you're willing to live like an African, your
| position is hypocritical - jealousy masked with self
| righteousness. Philosophers who feel better than other,
| richer, people because they've explained away their own
| behavior.
|
| Excuse my elitism, but its pop Buddhism with all the
| vulgarities of pop.
| shituonui wrote:
| Oh yes, the expertise of Patek Philippe will trickle down
| any day now.
| 1123581321 wrote:
| It has. Wristwatch mechanical and material expertise has
| greatly diffused, resulting in good watches at many price
| points.
| shituonui wrote:
| I'm sure that's a real benefit to all the people living
| paycheck-to-paycheck who wear mechanical watches.
| djsbs wrote:
| Again, sarcasm.
|
| Patek Phillipe is 180 years old. "Normal" people used to
| need mechanical watches to get to work on time until 40
| years ago.
|
| Anyway, luxury goods don't have to justify themselves (at
| all) solely on their technological transfer. They are, PP
| in particular as opposed to mass produced Rolexes, works
| of human excellence.
|
| There is nothing immoral in a watch that took a year of
| human hours to build that isn't immoral about Japanese
| artisanal charcoal.
| shituonui wrote:
| >They are, PP in particular as opposed to mass produced
| Rolexes, works of human excellence.
|
| You are getting increasingly metaphysical.
|
| These watches are built on antiquated technology and, by
| design, cannot be mass-produced, so clearly they will
| never lead to technological innovation.
|
| These watches are so rare that they can provide very
| little beauty. The vast majority of people will never lay
| eyes on one.
|
| Let me ask you a question: would you support the
| government purchasing Patek Philippe watches and putting
| them in libraries for the common people to check out?
| This would lead to much more beauty than letting them sit
| in rich people's collections and would encourage even
| _more_ "human excellence". But I suspect you'd find it a
| waste of tax money.
| 1123581321 wrote:
| For the ones who want a cheap watch that works well and
| looks good, absolutely.
| djsbs wrote:
| OP spoke in generalities, and I answered in generalities
| with specific examples merely as illustrative aids.
|
| You just used sarcasm.
| shituonui wrote:
| Sarcasm is a perfectly valid rhetorical device. If you
| find it rude, I apologize.
|
| _Some_ luxury goods are beautiful. _Some_ are high-
| performance. However, many of them are prized merely
| because they are exclusive.
|
| I find very expensive jewelry, almost without exception,
| to be gaudy and hideous. Even if it were tasteful, it
| could be made with artificial or semiprecious gems and
| clad base metals with no change in appearance.
|
| There is nothing from high-end jewelry that can trickle
| down to the mass market. The entire industry is, _by
| design_ , based around the work of skilled artisans. If
| it were possible to mass-produce jewelry, it would no
| longer be exclusive and would thus be less desirable.
|
| Luxury cars are an interesting example. They are usually
| prized for their technical excellence. Some of the
| innovations may actually make it to market. The same
| definitely does _not_ apply to fashion or to the majority
| of other luxury goods.
| 1123581321 wrote:
| Similarly to watches, jewelry techniques, styles
| materials have made their way far down market.
| Exclusivity (or a certain designer's mark) is just one
| buyer preference.
|
| Take a look at the jewelry case at Walmart or Kohl's (if
| you're in the United States) to see what's happened.
| shituonui wrote:
| >Im so bewildered I'll just ask "what problem you can
| possibly have with luxury cars and jewelry?"
|
| I don't believe you. It is pretty obvious someone would
| object to luxury cars and jewelry:
|
| 1. Luxury cars are often wasteful or dangerous to be around.
|
| 2. The resources for jewelry are scarce and often extracted
| with slave labor.
|
| 3. Both are often used as displays of wealth, intended to
| demean people who can't afford them.
|
| I love fast cars and I wear jewelry. I hate the fact that
| these beautiful things are corrupted by their use as tools of
| oppression.
| djsbs wrote:
| 1."I don't believe you. It is pretty obvious someone would
| object to luxury cars and jewelry:"
|
| Let me revise, since I have met ppl like OP:
|
| Im so bewildered _at this attitude_ that I'll just ask
| "what problem _do people like you_ possibly have with
| luxury cars and jewelry?"
|
| 2. Jewlery _can_ be made with slave labor. There is nothing
| inherent in jewelry that it must be made with slave labor.
| Thus, you can object to a available jewelry or specific
| jewelry but your objection isn 't valid for jewelry
| generally.
|
| This is like objecting to running shoes. De facto they're
| made in sweatshops, and available sneakers supports
| slavery. But nothing inherent in trainers requires slaves.
|
| 3. As to the scarcity of resources for jewelry, so what?
| Thats a moral judgement on your behalf that jewelry is
| inherently less worthy than, say, an Orthodox icon, or
| bullion as a hedge against inflation.
|
| 4. As to cars, most of your objection appear to be directed
| at their drivers. How is a VW golf more dangerous than an
| A3? Only if you assume nastier drivers drive luxury cars.
| Let me assure you I drive like an utter asshole on my $3000
| assessed value car (mea culpa. But I live in the mountains,
| the car is stick...) Nor does the A3 consume more resources
| than the Golf to make.
|
| 5. As your third objection, I dont agree with your
| statement: "[...]often used as displays of wealth, intended
| to demean people who can't afford them". Clearly some ppl
| buy expensive things to show off, but I dont think it
| follows that their intention is to demean. I think that
| says more about the feelings of inadequacy that we feel
| next to a fancy car. Feelings we rationalize by telling
| ourselves they're doing it on purpose to spite us. They
| probably aren't giving you a second's thought.
|
| I think your use of the word "often" is telling. Myself,
| I'd love to have a luxury car but one criteria would have
| to be that it is not obvious that it is a luxury car. It
| follows that luxury cars are not purchased solely to show
| off (and therefore immoral?)
|
| 6. Look, if the OP had objected to _cars_ I wouldn 't have
| bothered to object. Maybe I'd disagree (on the fence on
| cars), but I can see that an argument can be made that
| cars, electric or otherwise, are inherently immoral.
|
| The statement was just self-righteous
|
| EDIT: typos. Writing this on my 5 year old SE
| shituonui wrote:
| I don't really believe that luxury cars or jewelry are
| inherently evil and won't defend those claims. I gave
| those as examples of (obvious) reasons people might
| object to those things.
|
| >Clearly some ppl buy expensive things to show off, but I
| dont think it follows that their intention is to demean.
|
| I don't think it matters what the intention is. Our
| society universally denigrates the poor and elevates
| wealth to a virtue. Anything that contributes to that has
| got to go.
| resters wrote:
| It's sort of strange that everyone thinks that an aggressive
| eugenics program for animals is completely normal and morally
| acceptable (just because it's been going on for a long time).
|
| In my opinion, purchasing a purebred pet is cringeworthy at best.
| h2odragon wrote:
| Eugenics gave us much better cows, pigs and chickens. We've
| continued that to freakish levels in some instances. You morals
| are your own; mine are just fine with short lived chickens and
| $2/lb chicken breast.
|
| The angus and longhorn enthusiasts better police some of their
| nuts or they're gonna get the Aurochs back.
| pessimizer wrote:
| The purpose of dog breeding isn't health or usefulness, it's
| to match a picture and description.
| harpersealtako wrote:
| Generalizations like this are kind of ridiculous, given the
| existence of hunting dogs, police dogs, herding dogs,
| livestock guardian dogs, and even many ordinary
| family/companionship dogs that are specifically bred to be
| docile, long-living pets.
| nyanpasu64 wrote:
| Why not cross different dog breeds to increase total diversity
| instead of trying to protect what's left?
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| That happens too, there are quite a few 'designer' cross
| breeds, like labradoodle or cavapoo.
|
| Article:
| https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/pets/g3414/cutest-mixe...
| pibechorro wrote:
| Because people are disconnected from what matters in nature and
| self-centered. French pugs are at the top of breed popularity,
| facepalm.
|
| Inbred dogs for shallow purposes is a reflection on our
| species.
| zaroth wrote:
| I'm not personally a big fan of "purebreds", but breed was
| important to me because I had small children and needed an
| extremely predictable and fairly easily obtained behavior
| profile.
|
| Specifically, I wanted a dope of a dog that was a living,
| breathing stuffed animal but with enough intelligence to be
| trained on the basics easily.
|
| So I bred my goldendoodle with a bernedoodle and got exactly
| what I was looking for!
|
| You do get more variation in the litters, which can be a double
| edged sword. For example, one of the pups ended up being
| shedding, where non-shedding was a desired and expected trait
| for me.
|
| Overall, breeding and getting to help deliver and raise a
| litter was one of the most fun & rewarding activities my family
| has ever done, and when we get holiday cards every year from
| all the families that got a pup with those dogs featured, it is
| just the best feeling.
| Geezus-42 wrote:
| Doodles already aren't purebred.
| simplyaccont wrote:
| try to explain it to proud owners of "standard Australian
| mini labradoodle" or something like this... they claim that
| it's a new pure breed
| alistairSH wrote:
| If you paid $4000 for a designer pooch, you'd make that
| claim too. ;)
| simplyaccont wrote:
| Yeah. I "manage" at work dog owners group in our
| collaboration system that has >500 people now. Amount of
| purebred _doodles or_ poos is amazing. I wasn't even
| aware that those combinations are bred
| quickthrowman wrote:
| Because you can't get $2,000+ for a 'mutt' puppy
| sliken wrote:
| That makes complete sense.
|
| However a well recognized scientist specializing in dog
| breeding gave a talk at a conference for a particular breed.
| They had done extensive genetic analysis of that breed and had
| some recommendations. Among other recommendations, they
| recommended mixing in a few animals from the European variant
| of that breed into the American breeding population. The crowd
| went quiet, all future talks/panels for the scientist were
| cancelled. They were uninvited from the conference.
|
| Sad that many breed enthusiasts and even the AKC (who sets the
| breed standards) are damaging the breeds they care so much
| about.
| alistairSH wrote:
| Some people want a specific breed for generally aesthetic
| reasons. And some breeds exist almost exclusively for
| aesthetics (vs working and sporting breeds). Sadly, some
| working breeds have degenerated to the point they can barely
| work - GSDs with short rear legs and hip problems come to mind.
| rubyist5eva wrote:
| Because capitalism. People want to buy "pure" dogs which causes
| this.
| [deleted]
| goda90 wrote:
| One of our dogs is from farmers who specifically bought a giant
| working breed from across the country to sire puppies with
| their other giant working breed dogs. The two breeds make a
| good mix, and it ensures some genetic diversity. They actually
| use dogs on the farm, so they have more of an interest in
| cultivating health and good temperament than designer looks
| like some breeders do.
| newaccount2021 wrote:
| there are many benefits to having a mutt
|
| the dumbest dogs I have ever owned were a very-pure viszla and
| a very-pure mastiff. between the two of them there could not
| have been ten working brain cells.
|
| now I have a mutt that has such diverse characteristics that it
| is confounding for dog experts to tell me what he is...he is
| also, by a mile, the smartest dog I have ever had
|
| I am convinced the purebred = dumb observation is not just an
| anecdote
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