[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Advice about aging parents
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Ask HN: Advice about aging parents
Hey HN, I know some of you have been down this road already. My
dad is 86, my mum is 79 and my dad refuses to leave his house until
he dies. It's our family home from when I was growing up, 2 stories
and my dad currently crawls his way up the stairs each day to use
his computer. He won't even consider moving down to the first floor
(stubborn). I have my own young family and my partner and I have
jobs, so I'm basically looking for how you juggled your way through
this part of life and if you have any pointers. I'm 41 btw.
Author : tren
Score : 234 points
Date : 2021-12-03 13:07 UTC (9 hours ago)
| bluGill wrote:
| When he is at home he is only a harm to himself. At his age if
| that is the risk he wants to take... (though do make him wear an
| emergency call button in case he survives a fall)
|
| I'm more worried about other things. How do you take his drivers
| license away? I know far too many old people who keep driving
| even while they are a real danger to others. If there is bus
| system in town get him a schedule and post it by the door, even
| get him a monthly pass. Or he might qualify for the local
| disabled transit (don't call it that in front of him) to get
| rides wherever.
| ashwinpp wrote:
| I'm looking into reducing loneliness and providing companionship
| for aging parents with an AI powered talking companion. If you
| have faced any issues with providing companionship to aging
| parents, I would love to hear more about it!
| jleyank wrote:
| Make sure they have a will and whatever end of life medical forms
| are appropriate for their jurisdiction. This will greatly
| simplify handling legal matters unless there's a single child to
| do it all. Remember that (in the us anyway) powers of attorneys
| end in death so do everything that is necessary "in time". Even
| mundane things like collecting the contents of safety deposit
| boxes. Finally, if you're not somebody interested in accounting,
| make sure you have somebody lined up who can wrap up an estate.
|
| As others have said, work to balance your desire for their safety
| with their desire for independence and resisting change. Where
| they live, driving, all of these things might be a struggle.
| Perhaps start with changes while they're accepting, things like
| grocery delivery, transport help, etc. and empathy, don't forget
| the empathy.
|
| Finally, remember that work will always be there. Family and
| friends, however, will not.
| spaetzleesser wrote:
| I am sorry for this situation. My brother-in-law's parents were
| also super stubborn and it cost my sister dearly until they
| passed away. I am very lucky that my own parents usually are very
| reasonable and accept that they are getting old. My mom stopped
| driving and they also moved into a smaller, easier to maintain
| place.
|
| I don't think there is an easy solution for your situation other
| than learning acceptance and tolerance so this doesn't affect you
| too much. I bet people who live with alcoholics have a lot of
| lessons for how to deal with irresponsible people while
| maintaining your own mental health.
| steve76 wrote:
| Lost of a parent is the most stressful life event other than
| getting married. It makes you face your own mortality, and really
| changes your life. A lot of problems other people have seem
| little. You start seeing how others wasted their youth. You want
| everyone to become neurological researchers. Even then you
| approach problems from the view that it's futile, there's not
| enough time, we'll never solve it, and we're all going to die. If
| they are sick or well, young or old, when they pass it is always
| a shock to you, and you always regret things you didn't do or did
| or could have done. It passes when you realize you're next, your
| ticket is called and then all that goes away and you feel relief.
|
| Getting married shows you how different other people are, they
| want completely different things and your immature desires were
| delusions. You loose a big part of your life, almost all of it,
| while you get burdened with a ton of work.
|
| Try to find a comfortable routine. Find good movies. What you
| miss are things you don't expect. Be happy they can walk yet
| alone eat, talk or breathe. When those happen, think that people
| still fast. People still die even after the best medical
| discoveries. Drop the millstone of pride around your neck. Admit
| dying is part of the deal life gives you. It helps too to
| understand we have everything we need right now to live a good
| life. There's no more great prophecies to be revealed or
| sacrifices we need to make. Do great things like regenerative
| neuron treatments and xenotransplantation because they are fun.
| Salvation has already been found for you by others who have done
| the work.
| refurb wrote:
| For my grandparents it came down a combination of persuasion
| (hard when cognitive condition declined) and just making
| decisions for them.
|
| Finding housing that works better (an apartment on one level) is
| one approach - sell them on the benefits of independent living
| for longer.
|
| But eventually it was finding a home with 24/7 nursing care they
| weren't too opposed to.
|
| It's not easy and as the parent of a young child I realize how
| being the "parent" happens twice in life - one with your kids and
| once with your parents.
| criddell wrote:
| Did your grandparents end up liking their new home?
|
| My grandmother resisted going into a home for a long time. When
| she finally did, her quality of life improved considerably. She
| was much more socially active just because she was around so
| many people. She played cards, sang in a choir, and ate meals
| with friends every day. She even found a boyfriend.
|
| She was too stubborn to ever admit such a thing, but I think
| she would have been happier if she had moved a decade earlier.
| refurb wrote:
| Very similar. Strong resistance to the loss of independence
| but eventually they realized their quality was drastically
| improved.
| nurettin wrote:
| I am in a similar situation, but we live separately. Now I don't
| have stories of nonagenarians lifting weights, but as long as
| they keep moving in the house and take a gander outside every
| once a while, they will retain their muscle mass and remain
| independent. If that means crawling up the stairs every day, so
| be it.
| sriram_malhar wrote:
| If your dad wants to stay at his own house and crawls up stairs,
| I suggest you embrace it. Don't take it away from him. It is good
| for his mental and physical state to be doing things on his own
| terms. His autonomy is good for him, and it is good for you.
|
| Fix what vexes him, not what vexes you!
| WalterBright wrote:
| I suggest adding grab bars to the bathrooms and shower, and see
| about improving the railing in the stairway. If the steps are
| slippery, you can install a carpet on the steps.
|
| Install a device like Alexa where they can yell for help.
|
| See about removing any obstacles from the floor that they could
| trip over.
| encoderer wrote:
| I know people think of Hospice as supporting your final months
| but their only criteria is a terminally sick patient that will
| never recover. They can come and do an in house visit several
| times a week and bring health care to your parents, and it's
| free. I knew somebody who had hospice care for years.
| catlikesshrimp wrote:
| Life is hard for honest people. Just so you know. Good luck
|
| An older uncle I had insisted on stepping stairs everyday. One
| day he fell off the stairs, and died.
|
| Her wife, my older aunt, had help. Three hired people took turns
| to keep an eye on her around the clock. She still died because
| she fell off the bed several times in spite of that.
|
| See a therapist yourself, try to remind family to help (usually a
| failure), pay for the help you can.
|
| In the past I used to tell my mother that I would send her to a
| retirement home when she couldn't be independent. She shortened
| the discussion everytime until it was just a two word answer "F
| U" Now it is a running joke but I acknowledge she prefers any
| other alternative if I want to help. And since I want to help she
| probably won't end in a care home.
| unixhero wrote:
| My mum is 63 and single and almost no friends left. I can assure
| you I am worried of how the next 37 years will be for me as the
| closest family member.
|
| Advice from this thread which I will employ:
|
| - I will hire helpers to do chores
|
| - I will hire helpers to do larger things like lifting heavy
| stuff, ie. when buying a new fridge
|
| - I will hire helpers to do gardening chores
|
| - I will go to see a psychologist
|
| There is a tendency to need help for everything, when it could be
| solved on her own volition. This will not scale into the future.
| Therefore I will hire helpers. I will need to deal with this
| situation which will degrade, so I'll see a psychologist.
|
| Thanks, good thread!
| dmead wrote:
| My mom has arthritis, so they bought an elevator chair.
|
| It definitely has reduced the risk of falls, but like other
| people in the thread have said.. maybe it's decent exercise?
| foobarbaz33 wrote:
| Your dad crawling up the stairs is helping to fend off muscle
| atrophy. There's a risk of course. Falling down the stairs could
| lead to death after complications. But it's not as out-right bad
| as you might assume, and crawling reduces the fall risk a bit.
|
| Falling is a risk even with normal walking. But if you don't have
| some movement in their life, they degrade faster and die sooner.
| There is risk from all choices
| czbond wrote:
| My dad suggested there are three events that turn an individual
| from "able to be home" to assisted care (which is very
| expensive).
|
| 1) Change in ability to walk, which triggers 2) Inability to
| take care of and feed themselves, which triggers a slew of
| medications to try to combat 3) Inability to go to bathroom by
| themselves
|
| Keep people moving. Build strength early - strength training is
| great (people begin losing strength as early as 50's and it
| dominos). Eat more healthily earlier in life and continue (when
| a person cannot cook for themselves, they tend to eat high
| salt, high fat, frozen foods - which becomes less healthy).
| Also, look into assisted policy care insurance.
| reacharavindh wrote:
| Agree with you on everything, except frozen foods. I am in my
| mid 30s. I like to cook and try to eat healthy. I have read
| at many places on the internet that frozen vegetables in some
| occasions are healthier than the ones I can at the
| supermarket- because they are flash frozen, retaining most
| nutritional value vegetables stay out in shipping and shelves
| far too long losing nutritional value. Also that they tend to
| be picked before their time to accommodate for shipping and
| shelving while frozen vegetables are picked ripe for
| freezing.
|
| Frozen processed foods like pizzas, ready to eat foods loaded
| with preservatives are bad as one can imagine.
|
| It was counterintuitive to me that frozen veggies can be
| better than fresh looking ones from supermarket. Same goes
| with tomatoes from supermarket shelves versus tomatoes in a
| tin - apparently the tin ones have better nutrients because
| they were more ripe when they went into the tin, while
| supermarket tomatoes were picked well before they were ripe.
| bkandel wrote:
| I read that as "frozen foods that are high in fat and
| salt".
| czbond wrote:
| Your interpretation is what I meant. Above poster does
| have a point about vegetables frozen being more healthy.
| datavirtue wrote:
| I was eating frozen pizzas quite regularly in my twenties
| and thirties. At 32 I was diagnosed with pre-hypertension.
| The doctor was suggesting pills. I went home and evaluated
| my sodium intake. Those pizzas are insane with the sodium.
| I stopped eating them and haven't had one since. Shortly
| after, my blood pressure went back to normal/good levels.
| Ten years later I'm still healthy...and eating much better
| than I did when I was younger.
| dharmab wrote:
| Pizza can be a downward spiral- huge amount of carbs,
| salt and cheese in a single slice, and most people eat
| multiple slices.
|
| https://xkcd.com/1616/
| dharmab wrote:
| It depends on how you prepare the food too- many type of
| vegetables have different nutrition content when eaten raw
| rather than cooked.
| reacharavindh wrote:
| I know this is another information rabbit hole. But, I'd
| love to know what happens to nutrients with various forms
| of cooking and combinations with various cooking elements
| like salt, pepper, chillies, turmeric, cumin etc. A
| purely scientific approach to cooking that experiments to
| improve commonly used recipes for nutritional value would
| be amazing.
| dharmab wrote:
| See if you can access food science papers through your
| library.
| pelagos wrote:
| classic hackernews response
| mindslight wrote:
| If you think hacker news has a single minded strength of
| will, you haven't met an old man.
|
| Like seriously if your Dad is crawling up the stairs, he has
| already decided that He Will Keep Using Both Floors Of His
| House Until He Physically Can't Anymore. Apart from
| completely destroying his agency, you are not going to stop
| this.
| disgruntledphd2 wrote:
| The best thing to do would be to get a motorised chair for
| the stairs if possible.
|
| Just in case, I mean it's obvious that his Dad doesn't need
| it, but maybe one day he will ;).
| jfk13 wrote:
| Yes, sounds like this could be a wise move. My dad (now
| 95, living alone in his 3-storey house since mum died
| around 7 years ago) had one installed a few years back,
| and although he doesn't always use it, it's invaluable
| for the times/days when he's feeling that bit less
| mobile. Without it, he couldn't have stayed in the house
| -- and leaving it is almost unthinkable. (Sure, some day
| there may be no choice. But it has unquestionably given
| him additional years of independence and stability in his
| own home.)
| georgeecollins wrote:
| I am no expert but I do question the tactic of avoiding
| dangerous things like stairs based on unscientific anecdote of
| my own experience. Both my parents live upstairs in a two story
| house. My Dad still drives, which terrifies me. He recently
| started a drive from San Francisco to Los Angeles with my
| sister in the car who took over after a bout an hour,
| understandably. My Dad retired from work reluctantly at 90.
| They do a bunch of things that worry me but they are also 92
| and 91 and living active independent lives. So there is some
| value in the risk taking.
|
| I do think there is science to back up the idea that as your
| parents get older it is really helpful for them to have younger
| friends. For my Dad this came through work, for my Mom through
| friends who enjoyed concerts and plays. The point is to try to
| get them to have a connection with younger people. It's
| depressing, but my Mom says all her original friends have died
| off. For your parents it could be a hobby, taking care of grand
| kids, etc.
| vr46 wrote:
| Falling has worse outcomes than the immediate ones. Both my
| parents passed away after a chain of events that began with a
| low-speed fall just onto the floor that damaged their lower
| body. The resulting incapacity and muscular wastage led to a
| multitude of issues that I don't want to go into but I would
| say that keeping elderly people safe from falls is extremely
| important. That and diet and healthcare. Activity is crucial,
| but done safely.
| fallinghawks wrote:
| My mom went a similar way. Low speed fall right after her
| bath, no obvious damage, but she was on the floor for over 48
| hours. Life alert was not a waterproof model and so she had
| not yet put it back on. The weakness induced by lack of food
| and water then being in a hospital bed for weeks rendered her
| unable to walk (she had used a cane prior, though would have
| been better with a walker). While in hospital and the
| recovery facility she was not allowed her medications for
| breast cancer, and within 5 weeks of her fall, cancer cells
| were found in some pleural fluid buildup. At that point it
| was hospice. These things just pile on top of each other, and
| at a late stage in life recovery is much harder.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| A relative of mine (M/90) recently went from fairly
| independent to passing within three weeks of what appeared -
| initially - to be a moderate fall. The cascading health
| impacts were all secondary to the fall itself.
| izhak wrote:
| Hey, I'm 42, Father 81 and every time we visit his doctor (now it
| happens no less than 10 times a month) he refuses to use elevator
| and insists on walking to the second floor on his own feet (in
| fact also his hands - one for the stick and the other for the
| railings). He says: "I must train as much as I can".
|
| I personally respect that and consider it to be the a sound
| choice. Not only this helps him to get some physical activity,
| but also a sense of control over his body and life which is a
| crucial thing to have in his age/situation. I really can't
| overestimate how important that is for his is deteriorating self-
| being. That allows him to keep some measure of self-respect and
| pride. At my 40 I started to understand that old people (I mean
| OLD, like 80+) are not strange yoda-like creatures from outer
| space (like I suspected when I was younger) but actually not
| different from us except for their bodies not working right
| anymore in many different ways and w/o any hope for getting
| better. Most of the time men feel pity and shame in such
| situation, no different from somebody younger. Whatever they can
| do to prove themselves their ability - I appreciate that.
| xtracto wrote:
| I'm 40 and my dad is 72. A couple of months ago he had an
| emergency spine surgery because apparently a spine bone was
| clinching a nerve. Before the operations, in a couple of weeks
| he started losing feeling in one leg.
|
| After the successful operation, the doctors told him that the
| fact that he could still walk was product of his VERY active
| life, and that he has athlete's body. He has always been super
| athletic: He was in the Olympic (Mexico) gym team when he was
| in his 20s, later he was a scuba diver and always did a lot of
| exercise.
|
| I have always been the opposite (computer programmer, nerd,
| etc). It was after this that I decided to fully dedicate to
| improve my body (I walk 90 minutes 3 times a week, and row 30
| minutes 3 times a day. I am planning to start doing weight
| after I get some muscles with the current exercise). I've
| decided that what I am dedicating my next 40 years is going to
| be exercising my body and being fit.
| jacobmartin wrote:
| Did I read you right that you do 90 minutes of rowing a day?
| How do you fit it all in?
| binarysolo wrote:
| Parents are a bit younger (late 60s), but the biggest thing I
| keep watch for is their mobility and anything that affects it. My
| relatives that passed away all had one great correlation in their
| decline -- the loss of mobility, which really caused everything
| else to spiral out of control.
|
| Body movement affects a lot of how the entire system works, and
| also gives them a lot more options to the outside world. Make
| exercise as fun and frictionless as possible. My parents joined
| an all-ages ping pong club, a gardening club, and a hiking
| group... so it covers both physical upkeep to an extent +
| social/mental one.
| ilaksh wrote:
| Possibly the hardest part of my life. Almost all of the other
| family members decided they were not going to try to help. Mother
| did not really want help taking care of father, resorted to
| yelling sometimes when he couldn't move and she didn't have the
| strength. She insisted on lifestyle choices that accelerated her
| death and refused medical treatment that could have extended it.
| After she passed, still close to zero help from most family
| members taking care of father or hiring help.
|
| That type of behavior, crawling up the stairs, is not rational.
| If you have funds, I would start by looking for help such as on
| https://care.com. If you are lucky you may be able to find
| someone who can convince him to stop.
|
| It's easy to say, but you can try insisting, or even physically
| blocking off the stairs. And if having hired help around the
| house does not seem like enough, do not feel guilty about putting
| him in some type of facility, as long as it's a good one. There
| are a lot of bad ones unfortunately. The hardest part of that is
| the cost.
|
| I don't know a good way to handle it. It might come down to him
| having the choice of living downstairs or being dragged into some
| assisted living facility. Or the third option of just waiting for
| him to roll down the stairs and break his body.
|
| But my suggestion is to get professional help if possible, and
| make it very clear to other family members that this is their
| burden also.
| SaltySloth wrote:
| I feel you. My father just passed at 86 last year. I told my
| family the only way he was leaving that house was feet first, and
| he proved me right. As others have said, get your parents'
| financials in order. You don't mention where you live. In the US,
| offering to do your parents' taxes for them is an easy way to get
| a handle on all their finances without hinting your concern about
| how long they have. Here's the challenge we are facing, all of
| us, these days. Modern medicine has extended life, but has not
| extended quality of life. Our parents really did not have to deal
| with their own parents spending decades in decline. In
| particular, they did not have to deal with their parents'
| cognitive decline. If they had, they might have a very different
| perspective on the burdens and worries they impose upon their
| children. My mom and dad kept each other company. Yes, they were
| frail, and my mom's cognitive decline has been progressing slowly
| over the last decade. But they had each other, and could watch
| out for each other, and call for help when needed. Your biggest
| concern, at this point, is your parents driving, if they've
| gotten to the point where driving is dangerous. It's a much
| bigger deal when one of your parents passes. The other one is
| then alone, with no one to call out if something happens. About a
| year after my dad passed, my mom was able to acknowledge that
| living alone was no longer viable. My brother took her on a tour
| of several independent living facilities near his home. They
| found one where the residents seemed happy and friendly. Included
| in her lease is a spacious one bedroom apartment, three meals a
| day in a group dining room, scheduled shuttle service to church,
| stores, and the occasional outing. She gets a little wrist buzzer
| she can press that alerts the central office if she has a
| problem. This makes me feel a lot better than services where,
| essentially, EMTs will have to break down her door to get to her.
| And she has company. The cost of her lease is covered by a
| combination of social security and income from the rent from her
| house. This facility also has an assisted living wing. When the
| time comes, we are hoping they still have room in that side of
| the facility. I will tell you one of the challenges, which
| perhaps your father is aware of, on some level. My mom has been
| in her new facility less than half a year. Already, she cannot
| remember what the house she spent 50 years in looks like. She
| confuses the place she raised a family with the place she grew
| up. Losing anchors like this can be quite disheartening.
| danieldevries wrote:
| Please edit your comment to have paragraphs. I get nausea from
| this (might be my dyslexia).
| saturdaysaint wrote:
| I'm sorry this isn't much use to the parent poster, but I think
| these conversations really need to happen years if not decades
| before it's time for the change. 70-somethings can be lively and
| wonderful, but as a generalization they are going to be very set
| in their ways and extremely loathe to changing their valued
| routines. At their age, even something simple like getting
| acquainted with new neighbors (and losing decades-long
| connections with old neighbors) can be really intimidating. They
| can have emotional attachments to rooms of their house that they
| probably can't even verbalize.
| pezzana wrote:
| If you haven't done so already, think hard about how you feel
| about being a care giver. Think hard about how you'd feel if that
| arrangement extends 10-15 years. Talk with you wife about how she
| feels about those topics. If you feel one way, don't assume she
| feels the same. Marriages can be destroyed over this very
| scenario.
|
| Then I'd have exactly the same conversation with each set of
| parents. If the parent's won't talk about it, you're going to
| have a very hard time.
|
| Medicine has made it possible to string out catastrophic,
| debilitating geriatric conditions way longer than might seem
| possible or just. Your parents are going to die, and it may not
| be quick. You need to be prepared for that possibility.
|
| Remember, there's nothing that says you must take care of anyone
| in old age (unless maybe if you live in Japan). You parents are
| adults making their own decisions and taking the consequences.
| Your Dad refuses to listen to you. Think about it from his
| perspective. Would you want to admit that you're headed for an
| unknown future of progressive degradation, having had a lifetime
| of experience seeing people on that path? Would you not want to
| hold on to independent, full-powered adulthood as long as
| possible?
|
| He's made his choice. But the consequences of his choices only
| become your burdens if that's what you want. This is what you'll
| find being a parent as well. Ultimately, your loved ones make
| their own choices. But where you have no control, you also have
| no responsibility.
|
| I highly recommend to book "Being Mortal". It tackles this exact
| problem and gives some real examples of approaches and how things
| turned out.
|
| http://atulgawande.com/book/being-mortal/
| malshe wrote:
| +1 for Being Mortal.
| pirate787 wrote:
| Do not rely on them to take care of each other. Get involved in
| managing their health care and finances.
|
| One of my parents died a terrible, painful death; we found out
| too late he'd missed key treatment appointments and his GP had
| prescribed a drug that undermined his cancer treatment.
| gladinovax wrote:
| Are you just looking for a rationale for abandoning them? youll
| find it here.
| ksec wrote:
| Probably off topic:
|
| I wish we talk more about those difficult topics, parenting, or
| in this case aging parents, sex, childhood, or right to die over
| certain age. All the things we are all too afraid to ask and no
| one told us what to do. ( But as with every thing in life I do
| think not knowing has its own sets of benefits ) And Even in the
| example above, we are suppose to be adult and over 40, and we are
| just as hopeless as a child.
|
| And on the subject it also offer different set of lens and views
| on aging population, instead of mostly an economics angle.
| Personally I have no idea because I fall out with my parents a
| long time ago. It is sad.
| pkrotich wrote:
| This hits home for me... my parents are about the same age as
| yours and I'm 43.
|
| We're both part of sandwich generation [0] - the link provide
| general overview of how common it is and tips.
|
| I'll add that what you can do truly depends on your culture (and
| even tribe for me) - Americans or Westerners to generalize can
| simply put their aging parents in elderly care and call it the
| day - life moves on. If you're foreign-ish then that a sensitive
| thing to do and even not an option to consider.
|
| Luckily, for me, my parents live in rural Kenya - so it's cheap
| to hire help and provide them with all the care they need in
| multigenerational setup.
|
| While my parents are relatively healthy- my dad is starting to
| have recurring medical issues that needs close attention. He's as
| stubborn as it gets - I cannot even mention the need to prepare
| for eventuality with stuff like a will because it a taboo.
|
| My experience thus far has me thinking how I need to prepare
| myself so my kids don't get sandwiched as well.
|
| [0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandwich_generation
| J_cst wrote:
| "Americans or Westerners to generalize can simply put their
| aging parents in elderly care and call it the day - life moves
| on." That's quite a dismissal. Reading it sound like
| 'westerners and Americans just don't care about their elderly
| ones'. I assure you that's not the case and in general every
| generalization it's wrong almost by definition. Be well.
| pkrotich wrote:
| It's sloppy on my part... I meant it's more acceptable
| culturally to do so... not that they don't care.
| globular-toast wrote:
| I wondered if there was a name for it. It seemed strange to me
| for OP to be raising a young family while his parents are so
| old. That means both him and his father had children in their
| 40s (or perhaps one was even older). It honestly does seem far
| better for everyone if people have children in their 20s. I
| wish I could have done that.
| pkrotich wrote:
| My oldest is 24 and my youngest is 2 - I thought I would be
| done having kids by 30 but life happens (story for another
| day).
|
| In general people are waiting until they're stable
| financially before they have kids.
|
| As for older parents, they simply had plenty of kids spanning
| 2-3 decades. For example - I'm 6th born of 8... so when I
| came along they were in 40s.
| notacoward wrote:
| > It honestly does seem far better for everyone if people
| have children in their 20s.
|
| There are lots of tradeoffs. On the one hand yes, maybe it
| means the kids will be out of the house before you start
| having to deal with parents. On the other hand it's quite
| likely to be bad financially, as in many cases you'll be down
| to one income and slower growth in that income during those
| critical 20s and 30s. That can leave you a bit strapped when
| you have to pay for college costs _and_ parental-care costs
| _and_ eventually your own retirement. I had my daughter at 39
| and retired at 55. Without that last 10 years of income from
| my wife and rapid income growth for me, plus the magic of
| compound interest, I 'm pretty sure I'd still be working and
| none of us would be any happier for it.
|
| It's all very personal, obviously, which is precisely why I
| don't think one can (or should) generalize about an ideal age
| to have children.
| globular-toast wrote:
| The negatives are all constructed by the financial system,
| though. People need two incomes because everyone else has
| two incomes (two incomes are also usually more tax
| efficient than one big one). Why aren't people financially
| stable in their 20s? They're literally in the prime of
| their lives. Much less likely to fall ill etc. Essentially
| everyone has to delay their lives until later because
| everyone else is delaying their lives until later. There
| are no benefits I'm aware of with having children later
| (outside of the financial stuff) but there are many, many
| downsides.
| notacoward wrote:
| > The negatives are all constructed by the financial
| system
|
| There are two answers to that.
|
| (a) So what? Financial realities are still realities, and
| impose yet other realities on those who live them. And
| those realities are not going to change in any
| conceivable short or medium time frame.
|
| (b) It's not _all_ financial. Time, energy, maturity are
| all factors too. I happen to believe the vast majority of
| 20-somethings are not mature enough to be responsible for
| another person (barely enough so to be responsible for
| themselves) but I don 't turn that into an edict for
| others. When I had to help my daughter with something
| recently it was that decade-plus of extra life experience
| - not money - that turned out to be most helpful. The
| list goes on.
|
| If you want to claim that the 20s are the ideal time for
| anyone to have children, _you_ have to prove it. It 's
| not sufficient to say that "you don't see it" when that
| could just be a reflection of your own limited
| circumstances or perspective. The reality is that having
| kids later works very well for some people. Accept that
| they're not you.
| pkrotich wrote:
| I'll concur to a point on financials - but older
| generation got married at 19 and had stable families, so
| it's not truly about responsibilities.
|
| I think the idea of career first is a bigger factor and
| also we now live in a false "construct" of true love and
| everyone is waiting on or looking ideal mate.
| notacoward wrote:
| > older generation got married at 19 and had stable
| families
|
| Have you looked at divorce rates lately? Rates of child
| abuse, addiction, suicide? Seems to me that many of those
| families are not so stable or - even more importantly -
| functional. Also, if you look at how many of those
| formerly young parents in my generation and before have
| conducted themselves since their nests emptied, the
| picture's even grimmer. I suspect that they - and the
| rest of us - would be better off if they'd had children
| to help guide them into modernity in their later working
| years. Winding down any connection to the younger
| generation - and through them to changes in technology or
| society - at barely 40 doesn't seem to lead to a healthy
| 60, 70, or 80. The appeal to tradition fails.
| deleted_account wrote:
| Similar situation. I would suggest installing an implant that
| needs to be re-armed every month or so, and if not it releases
| some toxin that causes a natural-seeming shutdown. [1]
|
| No, wait, that's _insane_. What the hell is wrong with people?
|
| In this thread, SaltySloth's comment [2] is most prescient and
| provides the best practical advice.
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29430888 [2]
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29430583
| TrackerFF wrote:
| We got one of those stair lifts installed. My grandfather (Also
| 86) got new hips some 4 years ago, but had been pretty much
| bedridden for 4 years prior to that. He'd basically live on the
| couch, and struggle his way throughout the 4 story house.
|
| Unfortunately, he had a pretty serious stroke during
| rehabilitation, which left him with dementia-like symptoms -
| luckily not deteriorating, just very poor short-term memory. He
| never regained his prior strength, so he's mostly walking inside
| the house now. Grandma is still alive, and they live together.
| They, too, absolutely refuse to even consider the alternatives.
|
| When she started experiencing dementia, we started to use meals-
| on-wheels services - but unfortunately, most of the food gets
| ignored and just spoils. They've been incredibly independent and
| DIY all their life - just 10 years ago, they remodeled a rental
| unit they own. Changed the windows, flooring, walls, etc.
|
| Right now, we're kind of lost. They sort of refuse to accept that
| doesn't involve us (family) directly, so the whole family is
| doing shifts on helping them. My aunts/uncles are regularly there
| cleaning, taking groceries, etc.
|
| Tbh, I think it's going to continue until one of them passes
| away, and the remaining one becomes too senile to function. It's
| hard to watch, but that's just the course of life.
| octokatt wrote:
| Upvote for chair lift. This is the piece of technology needed
| to make sure he can stay in the house safely.
|
| It sounds like OP's father is motivated to stay in the house,
| which means things like exercise bands will be useful things he
| uses. Emphasizing meaningful exercise instead of continuing to
| engage in dangerous exercise is going to help.
| trashface wrote:
| I speak from experience. Aging parents, especially the stubborn
| type, will be a massive health drain on YOUR health. For little
| in return. They are still going to die. Don't put them before
| your own family, even a little bit. It will end you. They lived
| their lives, you're entitled to the same.
| tester756 wrote:
| >I speak from experience. Aging parents, especially the
| stubborn type, will be a massive health drain on YOUR health.
| For little in return. They are still going to die. Don't put
| them before your own family, even a little bit. It will end
| you. They lived their lives, you're entitled to the same.
|
| That's the problem I'm facing since last year
|
| 60 yo, half life long alcoholic with dementia/stupor that
| really tries hard to make our life as miserable as possible and
| it started affecting health of other people from my family
|
| And I do seriously consider what you're suggesting - just fuck
| him and leave him alone
| zarkov99 wrote:
| Jesus man. Please, your experience is your experience and does
| not generalize. Plenty of people love their parents and would
| gladly sacrifice a little to make the end of their lives
| better. Your conclusion might be appropriate for your
| circumstances but it is horrible nonetheless and no one should
| take it as the right way to live.
| keeptrying wrote:
| 1. Walking. 4-5 km per day or more. 2. A system of meds and
| supplies and checkup.
|
| I be cared for my dad with Alzheimer's fir the last 10 years.
|
| Walking helps: 1. Keeping muscle tone 2. Healthy lungs 3. Aids
| digestion 4. Fixes knee and back issues 5. Creates a routine 6.
| Aids blood flow 7. Helps sleep
|
| It probably won't help in the OP case unfortunately but the
| faster you can make walking a Solid habit for your parents the
| easier it becomes to take Care of them.
|
| I have a whole system to make sure there's 3 month of meds and
| supplies available.
|
| Plus doctors and nurses for checkups and daily care.
|
| Hard but very doable. My parents are in india. In the US setting
| this up will probably be 5-10x more expensive.
| foobarian wrote:
| Macabre tangent warning. Related to this, and having seen several
| cases where elderly people had very unhappy end years for various
| reasons (dementia, incapacity, etc.) I am starting to wonder not
| for our parents bur for myself - how could I make sure I don't
| live past the point where I stop adding value and become a drain.
| It's an interesting engineering problem. Presumably this would be
| when I lose mental capacity to make certain decisions, so it
| would need to be some kind of automated dead-man switch type
| mechanism, that is undetectable so the descendants can have a
| warm and fuzzy "grandpa went in his sleep" type experience,
| instead of "grandpa hung himself" or "grandpa pressed the
| accelerator instead of brake by accident."
|
| Maybe an implant that needs to be re-armed every month or so, and
| if not it releases some toxin that causes a natural-seeming
| shutdown. Or ironclad ream of paperwork to make sure plugs get
| pulled.
| panzagl wrote:
| 'stop adding value'? WTF.
| criddell wrote:
| Outside of HN that would probably be phrased as 'become a
| burden on my family'.
| panzagl wrote:
| So my father-in-law passed away from dementia recently so
| I've been thinking about this a lot. Some family members
| could not be arsed (to borrow a phrase) to really care for
| him over the last several years, and from their viewpoint
| he was a burden. Some could, though, and to them he wasn't
| a burden, but a way to express their love. And looking back
| his long decline of course had a negative effect on a lot
| of people, but I don't know if it would have been any less
| negative had he put a bullet in his brain 5 years ago.
| criddell wrote:
| I'm sorry about your father in-law.
|
| My dad is going through the same thing right now with
| Lewy Body Dementia and it's terrible. I've seen enough to
| know that if it shows up in me, I'm outta here. It might
| be hard on my family, but I'm not going to endure years
| of decline where most days I'm terrified from
| hallucinations which leads to violent outbursts directed
| at the people trying to help me.
| eric_cc wrote:
| Genuinely curious: Why is your reaction to that "WTF"? I
| think it's totally valid.
| dymk wrote:
| It sounds like something you say about employees, not about
| family members, and certainly not a way of calculating
| "self worth".
| eric_cc wrote:
| What you perceive as the value you contribute to the
| world is the most important way of calculating self
| worth, is it not? If you felt like you contributed no
| value any more and were simply a resource drain you
| certainly would have a low self worth.
| panzagl wrote:
| Well, for one thing, "adds value" on HN is a pretty loaded
| term that comes down to "making money for someone else".
| You're basically saying that when you can't pull any
| harder, you'll line up behind Boxer at the glue factory so
| the pigs get one last cent out of your hide.
|
| But lets assume a more charitable definition of 'adds
| value', then when does that end? I'd argue 'never', but
| I've also lost a parent and an in-law this year, so maybe
| that's still a little close for me.
| quesera wrote:
| This is a reasonable concern for oneself, if not a reasonable
| criticism of others.
| mlyle wrote:
| Really, a huge part of my quality of life is knowing that I'm
| doing stuff that makes the world better in various ways--
| offsetting some of the ways I make it worse and the resources
| I use. When I am not able to do this anymore--- what's the
| point?
| JshWright wrote:
| George Eastman (founder of Kodak) left the following note
| explaining his decision to take his own life (at the age of
| 77, after several years of failing health and chronic
| pain).
|
| "To my friends, my work is done - Why wait? GE."
| thesuitonym wrote:
| Assisted suicide is becoming more accepted as an option for the
| elderly. I suspect that some day it will be as normal our
| current options for extending life.
|
| I for one would rather die on my own time, surrounded by family
| when my quality of life declines, rather than clinging on to a
| miserable existence.
| ska wrote:
| One unfortunate aspect of this that while some jurisdictions
| have this available, they are sticky with informed consent on
| day of.
|
| As a result people will sometimes opt for this months, even
| years before they really needed to, because of the fear of
| dementia or similar taking the choice away.
| clpm4j wrote:
| I've had this discussion with friends many times, and I do
| hope it becomes legal and socially acceptable (I know it is
| legal in some places, but not widely). I find it ridiculous
| that we come into this world through no choice of our own,
| but we can't leave it when and how we want without resorting
| to some horrific or painful action. Medically assisted
| suicide should be a basic human right in my opinion.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| Start wingsuit gliding an the problem will take care of itself
| alanlammiman wrote:
| I have seriously thought about leaving a bucket list of
| expensive & risky stuff for when I'm old (why not take up
| motor racing, acrobatic flying, sailing around the world at
| 75?) but whenever I bring this up my gf is horrified.
| Syzygies wrote:
| After watching our father die from advanced dementia, my
| brother established instructions that no one is to feed him. If
| he can't bring a spoon to his mouth unassisted, he would like
| to stop eating. He works at a hospital, so I believe that he
| understands how to do this in a legally binding way.
|
| This tempts me to leave similar instructions if I can't cook
| for myself.
| JshWright wrote:
| Everyone, regardless of current age or ability, should
| absolutely have advanced directives in place outlining what
| they want done (or not done) to prolong their life.
|
| Talk to your doctor about filling out the appropriate
| paperwork.
|
| Even if you want everything humanly possible done, it's best
| to document it, and keep that document up to date (check in
| with your doctor every few years to see if what you want has
| changed).
|
| I'm 37, and in good health. I have outlined the (pretty
| limited) scope of advanced care I would want in the event I
| became incapacitated, and have a designated healthcare proxy
| that I trust to make decisions consistent with my wishes.
| nradov wrote:
| Such advance directives aren't completely legally binding,
| and rely on family and caregivers respecting his wishes. If
| your brother is mentally incapacitated and his next-of-kin
| asks a healthcare facility to put in a feeding tube then
| they'll probably do it.
| foobarian wrote:
| This is exactly what I am afraid of.
| cm2012 wrote:
| Also, if he has dementia and is begging and crying to his
| family for food, they're not going to respect the prior
| wishes. They're just not.
| Syzygies wrote:
| My father's last intelligible words were "I want a pill."
| My mother understood this request, but we could not act
| on it.
|
| A year later he stopped swallowing. My mother polled the
| family, and the consensus was to try intravenous fluids
| once, to see if this was temporary. With the fluids it
| took him a week to die. See how hard it is to even follow
| someone's last words?
|
| My brother would like to avoid that year.
| sefrost wrote:
| Will he starve to death?
| Syzygies wrote:
| That's his hope. He doesn't want to live as our father did.
| czbond wrote:
| Build strength by middle age, eat nutritious foods, move daily
| for 30-60 minutes in a large capacity, keep the brain occupied,
| be social, intermittent fast to remove weight which builds up.
| They all need to be started earlier in life to create them as
| muscle memory habits, rather than "motivational habits" in old
| age.
|
| As one ages, body parts hurt, which demotivates people from
| moving, which adds weight, etc. Couple that with the potential
| loneliness and isolation that can cause depression - old age
| takes more extrinsic and intrinsic motivation than being a
| youth.
| criddell wrote:
| Great advice. You won't have to worry about the things the
| person you responded to until your 90's rather than your
| 70's. It's still worth thinking about.
|
| My dad is in his 70's and is dealing with Lewy Body Dementia.
| It's terrible. If I start showing the symptoms, I'm
| definitely going to take control of my own death. Quality of
| life is far more important to me than quantity of life.
| nradov wrote:
| Generally good advice but intermittent fasting is not
| recommended for patients suffering from sarcopenia (skeletal
| muscle wasting). This is a hidden epidemic among the elderly
| and seriously increases the risk of falls or otherwise losing
| mobility.
| mindslight wrote:
| With the benefit of hindsight, my biggest priority would be
| finding someone you (or they) can hire to help them around the
| house, at least a few days a week. In my experience, as they slow
| down they will let more and more housekeeping tasks slip, and
| when pressed will have plenty of rationalizations that they
| themselves believe "we'll do that later" "doesn't need to get
| done right now" "we don't use that enough for it to get dirty"
| etc. Someone coming in once or twice a week for 2-4 hours at a
| time will make sure those tasks get done, bring a spark of young
| person energy, and give them a cadence to their week (much more
| important for people living alone after their spouse has passed).
| It will also build a relationship with someone you/they can trust
| for later. This is perhaps easier said than done based on the
| stubbornness and that both of them are still alive, but I think
| this would have added the greatest quality of life to my own
| parents' end of lives.
|
| Also I'm going to say that you haven't described much of an acute
| problem. Assisted living is a middleground, but that's a personal
| lifestyle choice and it appears they're deciding against it. By
| the time they're old enough to _need_ help, they 're past the
| point of assisted living, from what I understand. Having seen it,
| I would never want to go to a nursing home for my final days.
| Nursing homes are ugly end games that mostly exist because
| euthanasia is frowned upon and we don't want people dying in the
| street.
|
| Other comments have touched on the legal stuff, but you want them
| to have Wills, DURABLE Power of Attorney, Health Care Proxy, and
| Living Will. Estate planning will depend on their/your level of
| wealth, whether you have siblings, and the state they live in.
| It's not just about divvying up their stuff when they pass, but
| is important for their own well being. Some of these documents
| need to be definitively in place now (Wills), whereas others the
| right time to have the conversation may be soon, or it may be
| after something significant happens to one of them. FWIW your Mom
| probably already has some rough expectations for what her life
| will look like after your Dad passes, if it ends up happening in
| that order.
|
| Stepping back, you might just find that helping them at all is
| mostly impenetrable until one of them passes. And if that is the
| case, that is perfectly fine as well. It's more work when you
| finally do have to pick up the pieces and come from behind, but
| IMO you won't get anywhere by trying to force things ahead of
| time.
| hkrgl wrote:
| It's definitely tough to juggle these roles. A few things that
| helped me and my partner -
|
| * find local help for parents to do chores like groceries,meal
| prep, help with personal care if they need it, etc.
|
| * make sure there's a way to pay their bills, manage their
| finances. You may have to do some of this for them by making sure
| they have access to their money, pay their bills, etc.
|
| * if you are able to connect with their doctor, this would be
| great to keep a pulse on their medical needs. If you aren't able
| to drive them to doctor appointments, etc, funding help to do so
| would also be good.
|
| * be prepared to drop everything and help them for emergencies.
| This meant letting managers know a bit about our situation.
|
| If you have siblings, see if you can share responsibility for
| these things.
|
| There is no single correct way to handle these situations so do
| what works for you and your family. Remember to take care of
| yourself and your family in the midst of this! Talk to a
| therapist if it helps.
|
| I also suggest reading the book _Being Mortal_ by Atul Gawande
| that goes into some ageing related issues, which I found helpful.
|
| Good luck and take care!
| sabhiram wrote:
| Walks, talks and time.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| Has anyone looked into shared support resources on a
| friend/intentional community level. Obviously, this wouldn't be
| practical in HCOL areas, but buying/building properties in a
| close space and sharing a privately employed nurse/caregiver
| doesn't seem so far fetched for the period between fully
| independence and full-time care needed.
| whiw wrote:
| I had considered it briefly. Unless it is for a tiny number of
| residents (2?) then I think that the CQC will want to come and
| do inspections. It would be necessary to assume that the
| residents are, or will soon become, highly dependent (needing
| 24/7 care).
|
| In the UK I believe that at least two qualified nurses are
| required on site at all times, plus carers sufficient to care
| for the needs of the residents. Assuming 8 hour shifts you will
| need to triple that number. Multiply by a further 7/5 to
| account for weekends. Multiply by a further 52/46 for holidays,
| sickness and training. Add some for receptionist, accountant,
| handy man, cook(s), cleaners, manager(s).
|
| That is quite an overhead just for wages. Add to that any
| mortgage for the property, heating, rates, repairs, office
| equipment, etc, etc.
|
| With rooms becoming vacant and requiring redecoration between
| residents, there will not be 100% occupancy. The cost to break
| even is substantial. Even commercial care homes go out of
| business quite regularly. I can understand why residential care
| is so expensive.
|
| Having been a frequent visitor to care homes I know that many /
| most of the residents most certainly do not wish to be there,
| and want to be back in their own home. Almost all of the staff
| do a fantastic job, doing unpleasant tasks without complaint,
| and doing their utmost to create a friendly and inclusive
| atmosphere.
|
| The existing care system is very expensive for users. A more
| informal arrangement with less bureaucracy providing care at
| home would be useful.
| notacoward wrote:
| This is becoming a common quandary for GenX(ish) folks - how to
| care for both parents and children at the same time. Especially
| hard when so many of the former didn't plan well.
|
| My suggestion would be to seek out an elder-care specialist. They
| not only know what kinds of support are available - including
| issues or options you might not have thought of - but they have
| _contacts_ with all the different sorts of service providers. My
| brother and I engaged one briefly when we needed to find a
| nursing home for our mother. Both of us had already tried and
| mostly struck out on finding anything decent; she was able to get
| us a spot at a _much_ nicer facility than anything we had even
| been able to look at. This was especially valuable when COVID
| hit; the peace of mind from knowing that they were on top of
| things was invaluable. Money _very_ well spent IMO, and not even
| all that much.
|
| From what I hear, quality in-home care can be even harder to
| find, so those contacts become even more valuable. If you can't
| find such a specialist on your own, your parents' doctor(s) might
| be able to give you a referral.
| [deleted]
| Blackstone4 wrote:
| Can you make the home more accessible? i.e. put in a chair lift
| for the stairs
| sybercecurity wrote:
| Had a co-worker who senior-proofed his elderly parents' house.
| Put in a chair lift, grab bars, etc. One thing that really
| helped were smart cameras: He and his sister were able to
| monitor their parents from anywhere. He put one camera in the
| kitchen so he could see the pill container, one upstairs, etc.
| Then set up alerts for when certain things appeared to move
| like the oven, front door, chair lift, etc. They knew the
| cameras where there, but got used to it and ignored them (that
| may be an issue here, I don't know).
|
| Both siblings were close enough to react to the alerts if they
| needed to, but the cameras allowed them to see if they needed
| to go in person, or just call or just wait until the next time
| they visited.
|
| Good luck.
| mch82 wrote:
| This is a great question!
|
| It helps to put things at waist height minimize reaching easier
| (essentially apply heuristics from Human Factors Engineering
| like we do in factories). For example, in her 80s my grandma
| started keeping a small trash bag on the countertop at waist
| level so that she doesn't need to bend as much or walk all the
| way to the larger kitchen trash while cooking or doing dishes.
|
| Another focus area is weight reduction. For example, buy pints
| of milk or bottles of water instead of gallons (or transfer
| from large containers into smaller, reusable ones to help your
| elders and the environment at the same time).
|
| Recently, my cousin got my grandma an Alexa speaker. He also
| put a large text note up on the wall next to it with phrases my
| grandma can use. Stuff like "Alexa, what time is it" or "Alexa,
| play classical music". I thought it was silly, but then I
| realized it's actually pretty cool. Plus, Alexa games give the
| great grandkids something fun to do in grandma's sitting room.
|
| Once people stop driving, grocery delivery can make a big
| difference.
|
| Think about flooring. My grandma seems to have an easier time
| on wooden floors than carpet. It's easier to slide a walker. Of
| course, if the floor has too much slide that can become a
| problem.
|
| If you can afford it, a walk in bathtub is a game changer. My
| grandma is 98 and has used one for 15+ years. Late in life,
| even a 6-inch step up to a sidewalk curb can be a challenge.
|
| Edit: I bet there's a YC startup hidden in your question,
| especially with people investing more in their homes again now
| that they live and work at home.
| azemetre wrote:
| Be very weary about this and investigate carefully, IDK the
| financials of OPs family but they can become a costly burden to
| maintain and fix if issues arise. Especially if they are on a
| fixed income.
| JshWright wrote:
| It's indeed something to be wary* of, but that's true of any
| suggestion. There are pros and cons to every approach, and
| they should be considered within the context of the specific
| circumstances.
| protomyth wrote:
| If you're well off and the parents are not going to move until
| dead, then you can do a few things.
|
| Some renovations to the house including a lift might work. You
| probably want to look for replacements to the bathroom shower /
| tub (think walk in tub). Its amazing how much a bench in the
| tub/shower helps. Putting in some pull down cabinets in the
| kitchen would be good. Basically, look for spaces that are
| becoming inaccessible and fix what you can.
|
| At some point some service that does visits (nurse) is going to
| become a need if you cannot make it over there. Also, a security
| system with the elder care options is good. A mirror or similar
| exercise system (particularly with some competitive features)
| might be a good purchase.
| glitchc wrote:
| Movement is good, let him move around. Keeping the movement safe
| is harder, a broken hip at that age takes a long time to recover
| from. Are the stairs unsafe? Slippery? Too steep? Insufficient
| handholds (not enough support, large gaps)? Those things can be
| fixed. In addition to those fixes: 3M makes an anti-slip tape
| that you can install at the lip of each step to prevent slips and
| falls [1]. There is a clear variant available too.
|
| [1] https://www.findtape.com/3M-Safety-Walk-Non-Skid-Tape/p1217/
| tiahura wrote:
| I've been through this the last few years before losing my
| parents. First the easy and cheap things. Get them a Ring to see
| who's coming and going. Get an Alexa video device for each floor
| - go with the Alexa ones because they are the only ones that let
| you to check-in without the recipient accepting the call. Get
| them Apple watches. Knowing that they just need to yell "Alexa,
| call johnny" and that you can peek in provides quite a bit of
| peace of mind.
|
| Get a Power of Attorney for each. Make sure your understand their
| finances.
|
| Go to Home Depot and get the bars for the bathroom. Check into
| the stair lifts, they aren't super-expensive and some Medicare
| plans cover them.
|
| Do they still drive? If feasible, get them comfortable with Uber
| while they're still driving and the transition will be easier.
|
| Talk to their doctors. See if you can get the doctor the
| prescribe home nurse visits and PT visits. It's another care
| vector that's covered by Medicare.
|
| Start cleaning the house out now. I really didn't go through
| dad's stuff when he died, and then when mom died, I had to sort
| through everything. Figure out what's important while they're
| still around.
| lettergram wrote:
| My advice is to keep your parents moving for as long as possible.
|
| Motivation and exercise is what keeps people alive and happy. I
| once knew a 92 year old who benched 140lbs and who's grip was a
| vice. He worked out every day for ~2 hrs. Was one of the most
| impressive things I've seen.
|
| All that said, perhaps ask them what they want? For instance,
| their motivation might not be meals or cleaning. Getting a maid
| or food service can lighten their load. Similarly, consider a
| cleaner for yourself! And give yourself more time to spend with
| them and your young family.
|
| At the end of the day, they're their individuals. I suspect
| they'll have some thoughts. It's honestly hard to watch
| sometimes, but all you can do is try to spend time and enjoy each
| other's company.
| thesuitonym wrote:
| Yep, keep him moving, and check on him frequently. At least a
| daily phone call, but the more you can visit in person, the
| better.
| geoduck14 wrote:
| Keep moving! Yes! Also, emotional health is important. Many
| elderly people die of loneliness. If one parent dies, be VERY
| vigilant about getting the other into a situation where he/she
| has friends.
| satori99 wrote:
| I watched a TV documentary recently that was making a serious
| attempt at addressing this problem in Australian society.
|
| It was about older people in nursing homes who were sent to
| pre-school, with unrelated children a few days a week.
|
| The effect on these senior citizens heath and quality of life
| was profound.
|
| Old People's Home For 4 Year Olds
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13_rJVvxx_g
| geoduck14 wrote:
| Yup. I believe it.
|
| Consider, also: not all old people are mobile enough to
| leave their home (or even bed!). They need friends and
| happy people.
|
| If you work with elderly, please be friendly. If you know
| elderly, please be friendly to them.
| wuunderbar wrote:
| > Many elderly people die of loneliness.
|
| How does this work exactly? Medically speaking.
| m_fayer wrote:
| Depression -> not eating -> weakness -> accident or
| opportunistic infectious disease.
|
| It's also underappreciated how often depression in the
| elderly can lead to confusion or even psychosis. Which can
| also lead to a fatal accident.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| > Many elderly people die of loneliness.
|
| Good thing society banned people from visiting their
| relatives in nursing homes and assisted living facilities. We
| sentenced the oldest in our population to die in what amounts
| to solitary confinement.
| jlokier wrote:
| Video calls weren't banned, so it wasn't as bad as for
| people that nobody calls at all.
| geoduck14 wrote:
| I don't understand why you are getting down voted. You are
| dead on.
|
| My wife worked with geriatrics. She directly saw the impact
| of having friendly people around the elderly. Even if you
| aren't visited by your family, any visitors can help. The
| pandemic made this especially difficult. My wife worked to
| overcome this: she partnered with a local "sniff" (think:
| old people left the hospital, but they need some help
| before they go home, so they go to an old-people hotel) to
| have fun events where people from our church would visit
| the elderly and _just have fun_.
|
| Please visit the old people in your life.
| snarf21 wrote:
| Yeah, I think the best thing for this situation is to pay
| someone to stop by for an hour a day. Probably around breakfast
| time or lunch. They can make sure they are eating and taking
| their pills. They can be someone to talk to and something to
| look forward to. That person can also be someone who can notice
| if someone is limping a bit or looks "off". Obviously this is
| expensive but could be a reasonable middle ground to a
| facility.
| crispyambulance wrote:
| One major thing you have to worry about with octogenarians is
| falls. There are all sorts of injuries related to falls but the
| worst one is to break a hip. It can happen very easily.
|
| When old folks break a hip, it sets off a chain of consequences
| that are really, really bad for their health and quality of
| life. To begin with, it immediately requires hospitalization
| and major surgery. Then, a period of immobilization starting
| with a "short term" stay in a nursing home followed by weeks of
| rehabilitation. During all that time, they're susceptible to
| many different complications. It's basically the beginning of
| the end for many.
|
| This happened to my mother. In the course of 3 years: broken
| hip, stroke, and UTI followed by near-fatal sepsis (which
| precipitated dementia). After all that she lost the ability to
| walk and we had to put her in a skilled nursing facility for
| the rest of her life.
|
| Best thing you can do is to make sure you get advice from an
| elder-care attorney about end-of-life problems and financial
| planning. There can be dire financial consequences for the
| family if any money is transferred from the elderly to family
| members within 5 years of going on medical assistance (thanks
| to George W Bush's "deficit reduction act" of 2005).
| agumonkey wrote:
| that is all true, i've seen two ideas :
|
| - western way: use tech. some people have floor detectors,
| doesn't avoid the fall but helps saving people early. Maybe
| soft floors help too
|
| - easter way: daily taichi .. so then you just roll and never
| fall
| antoniuschan99 wrote:
| My grandmother who lived to her mid 90s did a lot of arm
| exercises to get the blood circulation going. She would
| stand up and just fling her arms up and down.
|
| Saw this earlier this year (it's a body airbag for old
| people in case they fall. Invented by a Chinese so eastern
| way haha), reminds me of the bike helmet some Swedes
| demonstrated a few years back
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9W6wNfzsIE
| agumonkey wrote:
| honestly it's pretty awesome to see this prototyped.. i
| dont know how it will be received and sold but it's super
| useful
|
| I also thought we should have cushioned sports area for
| 60+
|
| places you can just try shit and never fear shocks
| dsizzle wrote:
| Yes, a fall also was the beginning of the end for my uncle.
|
| My mom also had a (non-hip-related) fall and that resulted in
| a hospital and nursing home stay (fortunately she seems to
| have recovered for the most part).
|
| I read this illustrated aging-parent-focused autobiography
| lately https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/jul/13/cant-we-
| talk-a... (by Roz Chast, a New Yorker cartoonist) and it was
| very much about these issues, and her mom had several falls
| as well.
| nikisweeting wrote:
| There are auto-inflating airbag belts that protect the hips
| for seniors during falls. I think the tech started in
| motorcycle racing then became available for cyclists, and
| is finally available for seniors now.
|
| Here's one company I found but I think there are others
| offering solutions too: https://en.helite.com/hipguard/
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| This looks like an interesting product but how do you get
| them to wear it consistently? Half the problem in hip
| fractures is mentation: Many elderly people have
| decreased balance, decreased pain sense, and decreased
| muscle strength. And yet they're not cognizant of any of
| this, so they continue to try to behave the way they did
| 20 years ago and of course they fall. Getting them to
| become aware of their limitations would prevent a lot of
| falls but it is very difficult. I'd expect that getting
| them to wear this belt would be similarly difficult.
| nikisweeting wrote:
| I think it's definitely a struggle, but if my choice were
| to move into a care home or wear this, I'd choose wearing
| the belt.
| dsizzle wrote:
| Yeah, and people who have fallen once already and ended
| up in the hospital are probably now plenty aware of their
| limitations, whatever illusions they may have once had.
| travisgriggs wrote:
| I don't have specific advice for the original question. But I
| have been exceedingly happy with what my own parents have done,
| they're both in their early 70s.
|
| During the last 10 years, all 4 of my grandparents have passed
| away. They lived long good lives, and did my parents the service
| of "taking turns". Though one had 3 kids and the other 6, it fell
| to my parents to do the majority of the work during each's final
| years due to many issues, geography being one. It was a LOT of
| work for my parents. Many times they joked that, just when they
| got the kids out of the house and on their own, it was time to
| start taking care of grandma and grandpa.
|
| Having been through that, my parents have taken some steps to
| avoid some of the pitfalls they experienced. Once a year, we have
| a family dinner (us and their children + spouses). It's usually a
| sort of joint anniversary dinner. And after dinner, we have a
| "state of the union" type chat. At least an hour or more. Our
| parents talk about how they're doing, how their finances are
| doing, how their health is doing, even their mental health,
| what's bumming that out, etc. We ask questions. It's all very
| candid.
|
| This discussion is never had without everyone present. My Mom's
| explanation is that she doesn't want there to be any sort of
| "well, when I was talking to Mom she said, and what I think she'd
| want is..." There won't be arguments about when or if to put them
| in a nursing home. We know how they want to be buried. Kind of
| service, etc.
|
| There will, I'm sure, be surprises and we'll have to adapt. But
| we've tried, and it's a together effort, because they kicked the
| ball off that way. Before it was too late to have these
| discussions. Their biggest frustration with their own parents had
| been that they didn't want to talk about it, and when it came
| time to have to talk about it, it was too late. People's
| faculties and emotions were compromised at that point.
|
| My wife and I have compared this to her parents who are in their
| late 80's. It's going to be a mess. They won't talk about it.
| Don't want to. It's uncomfortable. And the kids all have their
| own viewpoints on thing.
|
| If you can, before it's too late, start having the candid
| discussions now, together as a group. It makes things way better
| in dealing with the downhill years.
| gwbas1c wrote:
| You might need to wait for something to happen, and then force
| the issue.
|
| One things you can try: Did one of your parents' friends enter a
| retirement home? What about one of your childhood friends
| parents'? Start visiting them, with your parents, occasionally.
| Sometimes, just visiting a retirement home for a _social visit_
| (and no agenda on your part) can plant the seed that older people
| are very happy in retirement homes.
|
| My grandfather lived alone after my grandmother died. He had a
| stroke a few months before his 100th birthday. Instead of calling
| 911, he called my uncle, who fortunately was only a few minutes
| away.
|
| That was when my dad and his siblings forced the issue and placed
| him into a retirement home. He was quite social, so after a few
| weeks, he made a lot of friends and adjusted. The vibe was kind
| of like freshman year at college, only for geriatrics. (Among his
| children and my cousins someone checked in every few days. This
| was how we were sure the retirement home took good care of him.)
|
| Even when we had to move him to a nursing home, he was very
| happy. Again, he made friends.
| andygcook wrote:
| I don't know your specific situation (location, financials, etc)
| so I can't share specific advice, but will share what we
| experienced with my grandparents.
|
| My grandparents lived to be 94 + 95. One of the biggest
| improvements for them and us was hiring in-home help aid as they
| aged. Someone to do laundry, cook a good meal, clean up a bit,
| etc. It took a lot of the time commitment off my parents to
| constantly be making sure they were ok. Not to mention it gave my
| grandparents some much needed social interaction outside of our
| core family.
|
| Another important factor was attempting to get their financials
| in order before they passed away and became incapacitated. After
| some review, we found some... shady accounting from a family
| member who was managing their affairs without much oversight. I'm
| not sure who is handling your parent's finances or if you have
| other family members, but once money is involved, people can get
| weird about inheritance. I've experienced and heard multiple
| horror stories about families breaking apart because of
| mismanaged finances.
|
| I'd also recommend keeping your parents moving, and trying to
| keep their brains engaged. Bodily health is a vicious cycle once
| you lose muscle mass. Falls are also a huge issue for elderly
| people. YMMV, but installing smart speakers in each room of their
| house that they can use their voice to call for help in an
| emergency after a fall might be smart. We tried to get a life
| alert bracelet for my grandmother, but she always took it off.
| You'd have to train them to use it, but it sounds like your
| parents are tech savvy enough to get it. My grandparents missed
| the window for learning how to use the internet, so Alexa was
| tough. My brother actually took this funny video which got
| featured on a few meme sites of my grandparents trying to use
| Alexa: https://www.rightthisminute.com/video/rtmtv-grandpa-
| doesnt-g...
|
| Finally, I'm going to plug my older brother's service,
| nanagram.co. It allows you to sms photos to a phone number that
| get printed and shipped to your loved ones in the mail each
| month. He built it to get photos to my grandparents without the
| internet. It won't fix the core problems you're describing, but
| can be a convenient way to give older people something nostalgic
| to look forward to each month, especially if it's pictures of
| their grandkids in the mail that they haven't seen on a photo
| stream.
|
| Full disclosure re: Nanagram - I helped get the product off the
| ground, but am not involved anymore. Just a proud younger brother
| sharing a relevant service.
|
| [Update] Another thing you should do is record their stories
| sooner rather than later. Using old photos as a story prompt is a
| good way to get the synapses firing on old memories. Once they
| pass away, all that history in their heads is gone, but it's easy
| to document some of it with video nowadays. If I'm missing my
| grandparents, watching old video of them and hearing their voice
| also really cheers me up.
|
| [Edit - grammar/typos]
| TaupeRanger wrote:
| With birth rates decreasing, there will be less people like the
| OP to take care of their elderly parents. I wonder how people
| with no children will fare in a world with no support system in
| place for them. In 40 or 50 years things will be very dire if
| nothing changes.
| Terry_Roll wrote:
| I think euthanasia should be legal, the idea was sown in
| various media outputs like Hogans Run Carousel scene
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41tYQ18oK40 .
|
| Personally I feel its insanity to be experimented on with a
| cocktail of medicines in the last parts of life when there are
| more important concerns to spend money on for people at the
| beginning of their life and I think its selfish to hang on if
| you are not contributing in someway but I'm sure others will
| see things differently.
|
| I fully support the work of Dignitas
| http://www.dignitas.ch/?lang=en and I see other countries are
| slowly beginning to make euthanasia legal. Unofficially some
| Dr's do give lethal cocktails in hospitals in some
| circumstances but its not spoken about because laws prohibit
| Dr's from doing this. Alot of people I have spoken to think its
| the Church and religious followers preventing euthanasia from
| becoming legal and thus creating this perverse situation where
| people are tortured on a cocktail of drugs keeping them alive.
|
| I also know Nurses have been known to meter out their own
| justice to patients in nursing homes and hospital wards based
| on rumours or gossip and many blind eyes are turned because
| these are Nurses!
|
| Another interesting development being seen is "no fuss" or
| direct cremations are becoming more popular with the elderly.
| Basically, no service at a church or crematorium, its just a
| simple collect the body, paperwork completed and then the body
| is cremated.
|
| Personally, if I had a cremation service when I go, when the
| curtains go down and the coffin disappears off to the burners,
| I'd want this tune playing!
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmin5WkOuPw LOL
| gtirloni wrote:
| If you want to be taken care when you're really old, your best
| bet is to save money to pay for that service. Kids are no
| guarantee.
| gladinovax wrote:
| Maybe if you raised them poorly they arent.
|
| You have my pity
| tiahura wrote:
| I think it's more accurate to say, kid's may not be in a
| position to do it all.
|
| I just went through this with my mom. She needed 24/7 care
| that I couldn't give her. Thank God we had the resources to
| get her into a "good" place. It was $5k/mo for 300 sq ft in a
| very low cost of living metro.
| thebiss wrote:
| Readers here might not realize that $5K per month is really
| affordable. Outside a major metro area, it could be as much
| as $300-$500 PER DAY.
|
| And just because the building is new and the grounds are
| beautiful does not mean you get better care.
| Dumblydorr wrote:
| You're saying his bedroom is on the first floor and he only goes
| upstairs for computer? If so, I'd go ahead and move his computer
| down for him.
|
| Older individuals eventually need to accept that their autonomy
| is going away. They're mentally declining, they're already
| physically declined. They're not in a fit state to decide basic
| things like: how to prevent falls. While it may be your father's
| right to stay in his home stubbornly, I don't think it's
| ridiculous to ask him to minimize the potentially deadly fall
| risk of a staircase at 86.
|
| Do family members really have the right to tell their own nuclear
| family: I am correct to risk my life, you are wrong for trying to
| keep me safe? I think if your nuclear family suggests such a slam
| dunk win, it's best to just accept it.
| codingdave wrote:
| I heartily disagree that older folks automatically lose
| autonomy. They lose physical ability. They lose some mental
| agility, but they are not all in dementia. And they have every
| right to decide for themselves when they can or cannot handle
| living independently. If they want the pain and trouble to make
| it work, we are the ones who have to accept them.
|
| I'd say yes, absolutely, family members have the right to risk
| their own lives. Have you ever driven too fast on an
| interstate? Climbed a mountain? Gone skiing, bungie jumping,
| skydiving, or even swimming? Then you have risked your life.
| You are proposing a huge double standard if you argue that
| youth are allowed to have risk in their life while the elderly
| do not.
| eigenvalue wrote:
| Or just buy him a nice laptop (maybe a surface with a touch
| screen) so he can also use that. That way he doesn't feel like
| he is being forced to change his setup.
| papa2034 wrote:
| My Mother have some knee issues. I knew that bike exercise is
| easy on your knee so I bought her a room exercise bike. The type
| where you can lean lean back. I think it's called recumbent type.
| She says she uses it while watching TV and her knee is getting
| stronger. I think it was the best gift I ever gave her. I really
| want her to stay healthy. It will benefit herself, but the entire
| family really.
| a2tech wrote:
| I'm a realist. I told my parents (one retired but active and one
| preparing to retire) that they needed to get their end of life
| plans and elder care plans in place because I wasn't going to do
| it for them. My wife and I don't have children and are hoping to
| spend our retirement being semi-mobile around the globe. We
| simply won't be available to take care of them in their old age.
| I threatened (only half joking) that if they didn't arrange
| things and they got sickly I would put them in the cheapest elder
| home I could find an afternoon of calling. They're grown-ass
| adults. They need to figure out their life--not lean on me to
| figure it out for them.
| unixhero wrote:
| This... Is probably one out of a few viable solutions to this.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| I bet you're glad that they didn't view you as much of an
| inconvenience to their life ambitions as you view them.
| Jyaif wrote:
| They raised him to be like that.
| a2tech wrote:
| Tough luck I guess? I didn't sign up for this. I love my
| parents, they made their decisions, I've made mine. I'm not
| wrecking the future I've planned for and built with my wife
| because they've failed to adequately plan for their care.
|
| My parents are functioning adults. They've had decades to
| figure out what they want to do as they age. They haven't
| been hit with unexpected ruin or financial woes or other
| troubles. Their lack of preparedness is strictly on them.
| gitfan86 wrote:
| At least you are communicating and being honest. It is
| super shitty when people act nice to the elderly in hopes
| of being in the will, only to send them to a cheap nursing
| home to save money.
| abletonlive wrote:
| I find this kind of appeal to "reason" questionable. While I
| am thankful that my parents took care of me while I was
| dependent, did I ask to be born into this world? I don't view
| my parents as an inconvenience to my life ambitions but it's
| a lot more reasonable to view them as such compared to
| parents that feel that their children (who are there because
| of their decisions in one way or another) are an
| inconvenience.
| throaway46546 wrote:
| Having a kid is a choice they made. You don't choose to be
| born.
| maherbeg wrote:
| I don't think parents should having children expecting those
| children to grow up and take care of them in their old age.
| There's sooo much that can happen (what if you have a bad
| relationship, what if one falls into drug dependence? etc)
| that you should have a solid plan for yourself.
| Clubber wrote:
| >I would put them in the cheapest elder home I could find
|
| I don't think any of them are very cheap.
|
| >They need to figure out their life--not lean on me to figure
| it out for them.
|
| At least in the US, there aren't a lot of options unless you're
| pretty wealthy. Medicare doesn't cover nursing care. Nursing
| homes cost around $5k a month or so last time I checked. They
| will literally throw them on the curb if they can't pay.
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/business/nursing-homes-ev...
| a2tech wrote:
| I know. And its not like I'm a monster, obviously I'll try
| and select the best elder home that matches the amount of
| money they have plus what I can afford.
|
| However, and this is what I was trying to humorously get
| through to them, I will not compromise the life my wife and I
| have built and worked towards to arrange care for them. Call
| me callous, call me cruel, but my wife and I are working
| towards something for ourselves. We're making our future and
| so should they.
| tra3 wrote:
| A bit of an aside, a fascinating video [0] that reviews a recent
| metastudy: "how many steps per day does it take to reduce all
| cause mortality".
|
| Turns out the answer is between 3000 and 7000 steps a day. This
| is a sample of 30,000 people between the ages of 45-80.
|
| Get yourself and your parents moving.
|
| [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6nW55kH7Do
| IrishLady911 wrote:
| We are dealing with the same issues, but not with a multi-story
| home. My in-laws are roughly the same age, have medical issues
| ranging from fall risks to severe dementia, yet drs won't remove
| drivers licenses. In-laws live in another state, yet still rely
| heavily on us for many things, so we have made the decision to
| make the cross-country move to go live with them so they are able
| to stay in their home as long as physically possible. We will be
| their caregivers for as long as we are physically able to do so.
| All of us have discussed this in depth, what it will entail to
| make this happen, etc. In my opinion, it may be time to start
| thinking of doing the same, if the home is large enough to
| accommodate all of you, as it will give plenty of time to spend
| with your parents as well as taking care of your own family. It
| is difficult dont get me wrong, so take what necessary steps you
| need to do to make your life easier as well. I know I will be
| once we are there.
| ksdale wrote:
| This isn't entirely relevant, but my dad passed away a couple
| years ago, he was only 67 and I was 30, and during the course of
| his illness, I had ample opportunity to think about aging and
| dying. I think the most important thing to remember is that
| people grow old and die. This fact seems so obvious that people
| nearly roll their eyes when you tell them, but I've seen people
| in their 60's and older just torn apart by the very normal things
| that happen as their parents die, mostly revolving around
| _really_ not wanting to believe that their parents are dying. I
| remember someone in their 70 's saying that it wasn't fair that
| their father, who was in his 90's, had cancer. What should have
| been gratitude for such a long life was replaced by bitterness
| that it had to end at all, which seems unfortunate.
|
| It's hard to handle mortality gracefully, but really, fully
| internalizing that you have a finite amount of time with your
| parents makes it easier to deal with the frustrations of daily
| life, and also helps you keep a clear head when it comes down to
| it and tough decisions need to be made. As much as it sucks, you
| will be the one holding their hands through the end, and it can
| be a profound experience if it's not just a giant cloud of
| negativity and overwhelm (which is totally understandable, but
| not necessarily the only way!).
| rupellohn wrote:
| I recommend reading 'Being Mortal' by Atul Gawande for some good
| insights into dealing with end-of-life issues. My wife & I found
| this very helpful in making decisions around the care of her
| aging father.
|
| https://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2014/10/04/helping-...
| JshWright wrote:
| This likely isn't relevant to you OP, but perhaps for someone
| else who is a little earlier in the process here.
|
| I'm in my late 30's and my parents are in their early 60's (Dad
| will be retiring next year). Two years ago we decided move into a
| multi-generational home. We found a place big enough for our
| family of 5, in addition to an "in-law" apartment big enough for
| my parents.
|
| This was born directly out of my parents' experience dealing with
| a very difficult aging/end of life process for my grandfather. We
| realized that the best approach would be to get well ahead of
| things (assuming a normal aging progression, we're a couple
| decades ahead of the issue).
|
| Obviously this was hugely specific to our situation, and wouldn't
| be an option for the majority of families, but it has worked very
| well for us so far, and hopefully will simplify a lot of the
| future.
|
| Just a handful of the specifics that have allowed this to work
| for us:
|
| * Both my wife and I have a very good relationship with my
| parents (my wife and my mom especially are very close)
|
| * I have a background in healthcare and don't have any concerns
| about participating in end-of-life care when the time comes (we
| certainly plan to bring in external help for day to day stuff)
|
| * We have young kids and my mom especially relishes being able to
| spend time with them. Obviously we're not accounting it for it
| hourly or anything, but the general approach we're taking is
| "You're helping us take care of the kids now, and we'll help take
| care of you when the time comes"
|
| * We live in Central New York, a place with pretty cheap real
| estate, so it was reasonable for us (on a single software
| developer's salary) to buy a big enough place (4 bedroom home on
| our side, in addition to their apartment). The home we found was
| pretty ideal, with two separate living spaces/kitchens/etc. The
| only common area that connects the two is the laundry room.
|
| So yeah, pretty specific circumstances that allowed us to do
| this, but I'd be happy to chat with anyone considering a similar
| plan.
| jareklupinski wrote:
| this sounds like a very healthy approach; Central New York
| would be a swing but i think i'll try to make something like
| this work out by me :)
| Cd00d wrote:
| I think this is a good solution, but I want to add a few
| disclaimers after watching my parents make a similar decision
| with my grandparents.
|
| My parents moved into my mom's childhood home with her parents,
| and renovated to build out a second floor with separate
| living/sleeping space (no extra kitchen). This was great in
| that the property became the de-facto gathering place for a
| large and geographically distributed family, and in a crunch
| the house could comfortably sleep 10 while my grandparents kept
| their comforts.
|
| That said some things were not smooth:
|
| * My parents and grandparents had trouble directly addressing
| uncomfortable topics. A significant example of this was when it
| was time for my grandmother to stop driving. The car would
| start to show surprise scratches and dents. My parents did not
| want to challenge my grandmothers stated sense of independence,
| and also had not budgeted a way to allow her to run her errands
| while they worked without driving (a driver a few hours a week,
| essentially). I consider this a high-liability failure.
|
| * I got the sense that money was also not talked about directly
| enough, and there was frequently an undercurrent or sense of
| resentment about who was footing what bill, and whether said
| bill was even necessary.
|
| * My mother, very sadly, started to deeply resent her parents
| after a long while for her perception of being trapped by the
| situation and unable to move on to other lifestyle choices.
| Part of this was due to my father taking a job out of state and
| being flying back for weekends, and my mom wanting to just join
| him in the new city full time. This resentment really soured
| their final years together, and is a real shame. Know going in
| that the decision you're making may go a decade longer than you
| initially calculated, and that your goals and priorities may
| shift in that time too, I guess.
|
| * My younger sister moved in with the four of them in her early
| 20s while trying to re-figure out how to launch. The result was
| a lot of arrested development and strange regressive
| relationship behavior - my sister literally started acting like
| a pre-teen around my parents again, they started talking to her
| like a child, and my grandparents went back to the scorn-filled
| gramp-grumps they'd been with little kids. Everyone leapt
| backward 10+ years in terms of their adult relationships and
| communication methods with each other.
|
| In the end, my grandparents were well cared for in their final
| years, and everyone did have more together time. The main
| benefit was the central gathering place for the extended
| family, and the house would fill for a few weeks of each year
| across all the holidays. I bought a house with room to build
| out a first floor en-suite that I hope my parents or in-laws
| will someday use, but I'm also keenly aware of the hiccups
| above. I think the main thing is clear communication about
| expectations, finances, and boundaries. Which I guess isn't
| different from normal life :)
| JshWright wrote:
| Struggling to directly address things isn't really our
| failure mode (if anything, we tend in the other direction).
| With the specific example of driving, I don't expect much of
| an issue there. My wife and my mom frequently run errands
| together anyway, so I expect that will just become the
| default. My dad will be annoyed, but he's a _very_ pragmatic
| and risk-averse person and my guess is he'll be the one to
| make the call (probably earlier than we would)
|
| We talked a lot about money going in, and one of the
| requirements was that the house had to be something that my
| wife and I could afford entirely on our own. We own the house
| (my parents aren't on the deed). If my parents moved out
| tomorrow, we'd have to tighten up a little bit, but we
| wouldn't be at any risk of having to move if we didn't want
| to. My parents pay us monthly based on a sq ft percentage of
| the house (utilities, taxes, etc), and they have invested a
| fair bit in their side of the house out of their own pockets
| (renovating the kitchen, building a small addition, etc...
| things that also benefit us in terms of value of the
| property)
|
| As far as your second two points... time will tell... We're
| not far enough in to run into those issues yet. I think we're
| all on board for the long haul (3+ decades), but that's easy
| to say now. We do have regular intentional check-ins about
| how things are going to make sure we all still agree on where
| we're at and where we're going.
|
| Your summary is spot on. If you nail expectations, finances,
| and boundaries, I suspect you'll be in good shape.
|
| All in all, it has been a huge quality of life increase for
| us. It's really great for our kids to have such a close
| relationship with their grandparents, and there are
| significant practical benefits for us as well (my wife and I
| are able to get away for a weekend every few months,
| something made much much easier by the fact that we have
| "live in childcare")
| Cd00d wrote:
| That all sounds great. I'm happy for you. Good luck!
| germinalphrase wrote:
| For the right group, that sounds ideal.
| globular-toast wrote:
| It's hard to tell sometimes what the right group is, though.
| My grandmother moved in with us. We all got on so well it
| seemed like the obvious thing to do. But she became depressed
| and just felt like she was living in someone else's house
| (which she was, really). Living together is a tricky thing
| and in my experience it's hard to know what will work. Worth
| a shot, though. They might love it.
| JshWright wrote:
| I think separate living spaces is really critical (I can't
| imagine doing it in the same space). My mom usually comes
| over in the morning to help get the kids out the door for
| school, but other than that it's not uncommon for us to go
| at least a day or two without seeing them.
|
| If you're going into it with a "give it a shot" attitude,
| be sure to do it early enough that changing plans is still
| an option.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Being neighbors is a preferable situation in my opinion
| also. Like everybody loves Raymond, but maybe a few more
| houses down.
| beckman466 wrote:
| beautiful, thanks for sharing.
| ankurpatel wrote:
| Thanks for sharing and it is a great idea. I am currently in
| same situation where we are moving to a new home where it is
| big enough for my family and parents to live in one place.
| There is a lot of activities to do near by and weather is
| milder where we are going but agree the separation of space you
| have is the best to avoid petty disputes/differences that occur
| when living together.
| wffurr wrote:
| I'd love to do something similar, but I have to move to a lower
| cost-of-living and warmer location for my parents to even
| consider it.
| 202112031617 wrote:
| There are so many lucky coincidences there that it reads like
| bragging - unintentionally I am sure.
|
| For example, I see no mention and not even a consideration of
| wife's parents - very convenient.
| JshWright wrote:
| I acknowledged several times that there a number of special
| circumstances that allowed us to do this, and that it
| probably wouldn't work for the majority of folks, but I think
| it would work for more people than you're seeming to imply.
|
| I also made it clear that my comment wasn't intended to cover
| every single detail (like my wife's parents... and thousands
| of other details). I would have exceeded the max HN comment
| length several times over if I tried to cover everything.
| That's why I said I was happy to talk if anyone had any
| questions.
|
| Regarding my wife's parents, they also live close by, and I
| suspect we will be involved in their care as well, but they
| also have other (adult) kids in the area, so it makes sense
| for us to divide and conquer a bit. Our relationship with my
| wife's parents would not have worked in this setting though
| (which isn't to say we aren't close... we see them at least a
| couple times per month, but living in close proximity
| wouldn't have worked). This was absolutely a conversation we
| had with everyone involved though (including my in-laws)
| before we moved forward with the plan.
| dang wrote:
| Thanks for replying so well when you could have taken it as
| a provocation instead. That is not always easy.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| dang wrote:
| Hey - can you please not post like this? I realize that the
| topic is an emotional one and am sure you have good reasons
| for it, but it's against the site guidelines because of the
| effect it tends to have on discussion. Note especially this
| guideline:
|
| " _Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation
| of what someone says, not a weaker one that 's easier to
| criticize. Assume good faith._"
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
|
| Usually when people react like that to a comment, it's
| because they have some important experience of their own that
| doesn't match with what the comment is describing. In that
| case a good way to respond is to share the relevant parts of
| your own experience, so the rest of us can have access to
| both. This is the best way for us to learn (which is why
| we're here) - and it also helps us learn at a meta level,
| that life is big and we need enough space to hear about _all_
| experiences.
| dkarl wrote:
| I'm in an expensive city facing a similar scenario with my
| mother and my father-in-law. My wife and I are planning on
| adding space in the form of an ADU, which we will be able to
| rent out before and after our parents use it. The catch is that
| so far we only have a plan for how to house one of them at a
| time. My father-in-law is ten years younger, in good health,
| and already living in the same city, so we're hoping we don't
| need space for both of them at the same time, but if we do,
| we'll need another idea.
|
| It's interesting how much the conversation around this has
| changed. Twenty years ago you could believe you could find a
| nursing home that you could afford and that your parents could
| have a good enjoyable life in. Now I kind of figure that when
| they need more care than we can provide, the best institutional
| care we can afford, even at our income level, may well be a
| neglectful hellhole, so we're concentrating on keeping them
| with us right to the end if possible.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| > Twenty years ago you could believe you could find a nursing
| home that you could afford and that your parents could have a
| good enjoyable life in.
|
| I thought the opposite, due to increasing average age and the
| population pyramid inverting from people having fewer kids.
|
| If I recall, there were quite a few articles even back when I
| was in late high school of college in early 2000s about the
| solvency of social security and the problem of baby boomers
| all retiring and living to older ages without a bigger
| population of younger generations behind them to keep up the
| labor supply. And my perception of nursing homes was terrible
| when I was a kid, so I cannot imagine what it will be like in
| the future.
|
| It is also why I have been so conservative in my estimates
| for how much I would need to accumulate during my working
| life to live my target retirement quality of life.
| JshWright wrote:
| > Now I kind of figure that when they need more care than we
| can provide, the best institutional care we can afford, even
| at our income level, may well be a neglectful hellhole, so
| we're concentrating on keeping them with us right to the end
| if possible.
|
| Working as a paramedic definitely influenced my desire to do
| this. Even the best nursing homes are... not great.
| [deleted]
| downrightmike wrote:
| It was a couple years ago on maybe a FIRE subreddit, but in terms
| of expenses for aging parents who didn't save for retirement, or
| saved little and for the kids to pick up the expense, it works
| out to you needing 140% of what you think you'll need for your
| retirement to also help parents out. So = 100%(you) + 40%(them)
| of that for them. Luckily medicare helps out quite a bit, but
| long term insurances should be looked at and it may be worth a
| few bucks now to cover things later in their long lives.
| Originally social security was setup to give people dignity after
| retiring for a FEW years after 60. But now people are living a
| lot longer and simply are not of the generation to have planned
| for that. You too may live far longer than you expect. If you've
| made it past 30, you'll likely hit 80, if you make past that, it
| gives you something to think about.
| whalesalad wrote:
| The best thing you can do is realize these are unique
| individuals. They're your parents, sure, but it's not your
| responsibility. Live your life, let them live theirs. It's
| ridiculous the way we as a society have normalized the idea that
| we need to care for our parents.
| ardit33 wrote:
| Is there a society out there that doesn't care of their
| parents? It is part of being human yo
| notacoward wrote:
| Don't blame the kids for "normalizing" what their parents did.
| I couldn't have changed the choices my mother made, obviously
| not when I was still an infant but really even much later. As
| you say, parents are unique individuals living their own lives.
| If their choices eventually lead to them being unable to look
| after themselves, what are the children to do? Let them starve
| or freeze to death on the street?
|
| Like it or not, we all _do_ have a responsibility to look after
| those who can 't look after themselves, even if they're not
| related but even more so if they spent years of their own lives
| looking after us. There seem to be people here who would
| prioritize getting the latest greatest 4K OLED monitor over
| ensuring their own parents' welfare, and that's literally
| monstrous (look it up).
| danieldevries wrote:
| Loads of sensible comments. I would like to add that you should
| address the stubbornness. Now its about stairs, but soon it will
| be about driving, or other contentious issue. Speaking from
| experience, this requires persistence, might take a year++ to
| come round.
| notacoward wrote:
| Very good point. Driving is a sticking point for many. With my
| mother it was basic time/energy management. She used to wear
| herself out doing stuff that provided little happiness to her
| or anyone else, especially around the holidays, and then be
| absolutely exhausted - or even in the hospital - when a bit of
| energy/wakefulness would have had more positive effect. It took
| _many_ years of often-acrimonious discussions involving myself
| and my brother before she started managing those precious
| "spoons" more carefully, and by then it was only a couple of
| years before we lost her to dementia so my daughter barely got
| a chance to know her at all. It's not easy to be that forceful
| with one's parents, but sometimes it's necessary.
|
| Spoon theory, mostly used for chronic pain (which my mother
| also had) but also applicable to aging and even to "normal"
| life: https://www.painscale.com/article/what-is-the-spoon-
| theory
| mdip wrote:
| Let me extend my sympathies to you. I think a lot of folks hang
| onto a fantasy that as your folks get toward the end of their
| lives that you'll somehow be more ready to lose them. We're not
| too far off age-wise. I'll never be ready to attend my mom or
| dad's funeral.
|
| That wasn't your question, and I don't have any direct
| experience, yet (both of my folks are in relatively good health
| at the moment), but I have some thoughts if it's worth anything.
|
| Our Dads sound like they'd get along. Were this my dad, I'd save
| my breath before trying to convince him that he's too old to
| continue with the stairs. My Dad required back surgery about 15
| years ago -- almost a year's recovery and was the worst medical
| experience of his life. He spent much of it barely able to move
| (complaining so little that you'd have no idea most of the time).
| You don't ever really "go back to normal" after surgery like
| that. You also can't stop my Dad from pushing someone out of the
| way to get on one end of a couch being moved, or keep him from
| bringing over his tools when he finds out one of his kids is
| working on their home. It's a losing battle. And I've learned
| that while I may believe he's doing more damage (and he probably
| is), at his age, he knows his limits and will exercise them. One
| way to guarantee he sets those limits too high is to hint that
| maybe his body can't handle it.
|
| The bedroom thing is interesting, though. I'm assuming your
| parents mental health isn't declining enough that you suspect the
| stubbornness is caused by dimentia. If that's not the case, are
| there other reasons that you haven't shared (or maybe you haven't
| thought about?) Is there something of sentamental or emotional
| value about that room that keeps him wanting to remain upstairs
| or is it just conveinece? Either way, the incredible
| inconvenience of having to crawl up and down stairs has
| apparently been judged "worth it" to him.
|
| And I get the unwillingness to move. Even at my age, I've my
| elderly grandparents/great uncles/aunts and some other extended
| family have moved from "the family home" to "the home they're
| going to die in" (usually something smaller, sometimes assisted
| living). Most passed away within two or three years of that move.
| Even though I can rationalize that "of course they did -- many of
| them were moving because they were too frail to remain where they
| were", when you've watched the progression from
| "home->condo->grave" happen so quickly for so many, it's hard not
| to ignore the other variables. If your Dad has lived in this home
| for a lot of his life, it's the home he's "lived in" -- the next
| one is the home he'll "die in". I believe it would be impossible
| for me to make that move without feeling like the only thing
| you're saving up for anymore is a funeral you won't be conscious
| to attend.
|
| Unlike you and I (hopefully, anyway), however, your Mom and Dad
| have probably not gone very many months without a person they
| know/knew/grew up with ending up on the obituary page. You're
| literally confronted by your own mortality all around you --
| moving to "that last house" makes it part of the rest of your
| life in a way that accepting "I'll die where I lived" does not.
|
| ... when I was younger, I always wondered why people go through
| the expense of installing stair-climbers in their homes -- the
| inconvenience/grief of strapping yourself into a chair and having
| a machine take you up/down because you're too frail to manage the
| stairway and the expense of having one of those installed seemed
| crazy compared to the benefits of just selling the place and
| moving somewhere without stairs. As a younger guy, I would always
| weigh the cost of upgrading my home against the cost of moving
| somewhere that already met my needs -- especially if moving would
| result in me _making_ money (as such a move from owning a larger
| to a smaller house in about the same location would cause).
|
| So twenty or so paragraphs to summarize with this: Recognize that
| your father's motivation is almost certainly a combination of:
| fears about his own mortality, unwillingness to move to "the
| death house", unwillingness to accept that at some point people
| will need to take care of him/he will not be able to take care of
| himself, unwillingness to leave the memories of his life behind
| from within those walls. If you can help him to understand that
| moving/correcting some of these issues means having more of that
| life to enjoy with his family and loved ones, you might be able
| to convince him to choose circumstances that are easier for him
| to live with.
|
| Either way, enjoy the time you have with your folks for as long
| as you can.
|
| [0] Well, those who came from stable family upbringings and have
| strong relationships with their folks; obviously there's many
| exceptions, there.
| ISL wrote:
| Based on personal experience, one might not know how much more
| pleasant a (good) elder-care living experience can be without
| experiencing it personally.
|
| It has been a godsend for our family that my parents were able to
| move into a retirement community that offers a progression of
| care. My Dad has progressive supranuclear palsy and requires
| relatively constant care, while my stepmother is better able to
| live her life with some of the chores/maintenance handled by
| professionals.
|
| I don't know if there are eldercare places that let potential
| residents try retirement living/assisted-living out for a month
| or so, but the community and amenity experiences can yield a
| flowering of life after elders have though that they were
| condemned to almost home-isolation by their mobility.
|
| The fact that your Dad has the fortitude to crawl up a flight of
| stairs every day is truly admirable -- the key is helping him
| find his way toward a situation where that kind of effort is
| optional and safer, rather than a requirement and a risk. As
| @crispyambulance says in a nearby thread, falls are the big risk.
|
| Good luck -- none of this is easy, but with experienced
| assistance, it need not be a series of unexpected calamities.
| known wrote:
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness"
| --Mark Twain (b. 1835)
|
| Show them all interesting places in your Country/World, if
| possible
| frereubu wrote:
| The only small piece of concrete advice I have for you is to do
| with online security. My 90-year-old mum was using a single
| password for all services, and had started to use it for places
| that allowed you to purchase things, like Amazon and PayPal. I
| added her to my 1Password account and helped her change all her
| passwords to 32-character mixes of letter, numbers and symbols,
| then taught her how to use it. All of her password are stored in
| a vault that is shared with me, so if she needs to set up an
| account on a new site, I can do that for her and add the item to
| 1Password so she can use it straight away. I always had this
| nagging feeling about her using the same password, and I'll
| happily trade the occasional 1Password support phone call for the
| peace of mind I get knowing she's not using the same password
| everywhere.
| em2k wrote:
| No good advice to share on the juggling bit, and I apologize if
| this sounds ghoulish, but plan now for their eventual incapacity.
| If they haven't done so already, get all of their financial info
| together in one place while they are still able to help you.
| Mortgage/deed, car info, credit cards, major recurring payments,
| investments,and insurance policies. Also all email and web
| passwords.
|
| I would also suggest a visit to an estate lawyer to make sure
| that wills are in order and that there's a plan for all major
| assets.
|
| All of this can be difficult if your parents are in denial and
| plan on living forever, but the more you can do now, the better
| off you will be later
| zoe4883 wrote:
| It is their life, they will die soon anyway. It may be better to
| have one good year, than five bad years.
|
| Does your father gets dizzy or does he sometimes loose sense of
| stability?
|
| Also limit damage from possible fall. Cover sharp corners. Ad
| rails on both sides.
|
| If he falls, you should know about it. Some smart watch should be
| able to detect it. Or cameras with motion detection. Monitoring
| can be probably outsourced to India.
|
| And some neighbour who lives nearby.
| csomar wrote:
| There is no easy way around this.
|
| > my dad refuses to leave his house until he dies
|
| Fair enough.
|
| > my dad currently crawls his way up the stairs each day to use
| his computer.
|
| These could be solved by elevator chairs. Might need to look for
| a creative person/company to install them.
|
| > I have my own young family and my partner and I have jobs
|
| It does help if you have siblings. Otherwise, you just need to
| assign a part of your time to them.
| brutus1213 wrote:
| Similar boat with aging parents. It is really tough with few
| solutions. In a very HCOL area and parents own a condo. So stairs
| are less the issue but there a ton other challenges that emerge.
| Simplest solution would be to do a joint-family system with the
| parents. That is not feasible because single story houses are
| pretty rare in our area and spacious housing is stupidly
| expensive in general (Toronto); moving my family with them just
| would not work. Back in the old country, houses were designed for
| this scenario .. 2 stories (old parents can live on first story
| and not have to deal with stairs; second story where the younger
| generation lives. Things like kitchen and dining were replicated
| on both stories. My spouse and I sometimes wonder why so many
| people who could choose to migrate to the west still stay in
| India, Pakistan, etc. It is a reminder that those societies do a
| few things better than the west.
| dsomers wrote:
| Toronto does not equal all of the west. There are a lot of low
| cost of living parts of Canada where you can affordability
| arrange that exact living situation. My home town in Ontario
| which is around 80k people has had a lot of Indian-Canada
| families move from Toronto to my home town in the last decade
| for that exact reason.
| brutus1213 wrote:
| Can you pls share the city? I've looked as far as London, ON
| but houses are still too expensive to make it work.
| dsomers wrote:
| A little further south west, Sarnia. To be honest, it's
| cheaper than London, but I don't think by a lot. There's
| also the option of living in Corunna, close to Sarnia, but
| even smaller and less expensive.
|
| Here's a semi recent article to give you an idea of the
| prices https://www.theobserver.ca/news/local-news/home-
| prices-conti...
|
| The lake is nice in the summer and you're close to Detroit
| for a weekend of cheap entertainment.
|
| Good luck!
| mch82 wrote:
| Now that remote work is more accepted, do you think people will
| choose to return to multi-generational homes instead of moving
| to the big city to work at the office?
| btbuildem wrote:
| I think this is the most.. humane approach. For everyone
| involved. From what I've read about the nightmares of old
| folks' homes, that way of handling elder care has been failing
| us for a long time (and only recently has come into view).
|
| Multi-generational households really seem like the way to go.
| Everyone gets to play an age-appropriate role and (in an
| "ideal" family) everyone is taken care of.
| criddell wrote:
| Multi-generational households are a non-starter when you are
| a child of divorced parents.
|
| My dad and step mother, mom and step father, and my mother in
| law, step father in law, father in law and step mother in law
| are not going to be living in a shared household ever. And if
| that somehow happened, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near
| it. :)
| WalterBright wrote:
| MG homes are the best solution all around. It's a shame more
| homes aren't built to accommodate that.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| >My spouse and I sometimes wonder why so many people who could
| choose to migrate to the west still stay in India, Pakistan,
| etc. It is a reminder that those societies do a few things
| better than the west.
|
| After witnessing my mom waste her prime years caring for my
| dad's old parents, I pity other women (and anyone else in the
| same situation) who have no choice due to lack of economic
| opportunities and are essentially forced to live as maids.
|
| I also suspect the people who could choose to migrate but
| choose to stay in India, Pakistan, etc are rich enough to hire
| cooks and maids and drivers. The people who have no option to
| migrate are the ones you should be wondering about.
|
| I hope that my children do not spend their prime years
| chronically taking care of me, just like I would not want to do
| it for someone else. Note the use of the word "chronically",
| which for my mom, between both paternal grandfather and
| grandmother, lasted 33 years.
| balnaphone wrote:
| You must be very omniscient to be able to judge that her life
| was wasted. I pity others who are forced to go work outside
| the home, who have no choice due to lack of economic
| opportunities and are essentially forced to live as serfs.
| Somehow taking care of parents is a waste of life, but
| finding new ways to sling ads on the web (e.g. working at
| Google/Alphabet or Facebook/Meta) is not?
|
| I have spent about a decade of my life being the primary
| caregiver for my aging parents so far; I'm in my mid 40's.
| And yes, I hope my kids do the same for me.
|
| We don't outsource raising our children (homeschooling) or
| caring for our parents; having tutors, coaches, or domestic
| help is fine on occasion, but not wholesale replacement of
| family care.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| No, I just listened (or had to listen on trips to grocery
| store) to her commiserations since I was the only one she
| could vent to.
|
| Slinging ads for Meta and Alphabet affords you the ability
| to go on vacation. My mom was not getting anything for
| cooking and cleaning and taking care of my non driving, non
| English speaking, non working grandparents. On top of my
| mom having to work and help my dad try and operate a small
| business.
| vandyswa wrote:
| We had to deal with this; in our case, my daughter moved in with
| my mother as a (paid) caregiver. My Mom got to live in her home a
| lot longer, and my daughter had meaningful work. It was great to
| keep it all within the family.
|
| You sound a bit younger than me, but take a look across your
| family connections. There might be somebody who could use a gig,
| and could benefit from close contact with an aging relative's
| wealth of life experiences.
|
| Best of luck!
| [deleted]
| meristem wrote:
| I currently struggle with a 80+ parent who does not want to move
| and does not believe they have cognitive deficits. If possible,
| get added to bank accounts so you can electronically pay bills
| and check if they are being paid if not on autopay. This is valid
| if your parents are local or abroad.
|
| Some of the tension I have felt is around notions of "dignity".
| When I read about OP's dad crawling up the stairs my reaction was
| negative. However, reading farther down about physical strength,
| autonomy, agency, made me see this differently.
| bradgranath wrote:
| Read Atul Gawande's Being Mortal
| JSeymourATL wrote:
| If you haven't done so already, make sure you have the essential
| paperwork in order-- Especially helpful, durable power of
| attorney. Don't procrastinate on this.
|
| Eventually, (and without warning) you may be called upon to make
| key decisions for them.
|
| > https://moneywise.com/managing-money/retirement-planning/ess...
| kashyapc wrote:
| No direct answers, afraid, but wanted to mention a related book
| on this topic: I recently got _Being Mortal_ [1], by Atul
| Gawande, that tackles the difficult topic of how to gracefully
| navigate end of life / palliative care discussions.
|
| [1] "Being Mortal -- Medicine and What Matters in the End" --
| http://atulgawande.com/book/being-mortal/
| grumpwagon wrote:
| Seconding this recommendation, it is an excellent book about a
| hard topic. Just wanted to add that it is a hard read if you're
| in the middle of actual severe health problems with you or
| loved ones.
| ankurpatel wrote:
| In Indian and Asian culture in general you will take care of your
| parents just as they have taken care of you when you were a
| child. Old age is just like childhood age where you have to look
| after them just as much as you would look after a young child.
| Having your parents move in with your family is an option so that
| they don't feel lonely. They can also see their grand children
| and not feeling lonely at home. Loneliness is one of the main
| reasons to loose hope in life if they do not have good neighbors
| or support system. Once hope is lost then motivation to live long
| also goes away.
|
| Not sure what other think of my opinion but I am living with at
| my parents at their home currently and just bought a new place
| and moving with my parents and wife/kids. There is attachment to
| the home we lived in for this long but we are looking forward to
| better life in new home together. There can be small disputes
| living together that may urge you to live separately but I feel
| if you look past them you all will feel stronger as you all know
| there is someone in the house to look out for each other.
| frontman1988 wrote:
| Isn't it traditional Indian culture for old people to become
| ascetics and indulge in spiritual pursuits? The Hindu texts
| talk about renunciation being most important in final
| ashram/stage of life as a Sannyasini. Wonder how is that goal
| achievable if old people are treated like a young child.
| Letting go of attachment amd material comforts is difficult,
| but it is the right thing to do according to Hindu Dharma.
| breakingwalls wrote:
| The sentiment of elderly become like children is very strong
| IMO and it actually makes sense; not in terms of innocence of
| children but the physical(and somewhat mental abilities) weaken
| as time progresses.
|
| As per ancient texts, there are four stages to one's life.
| Brahmacharya (student), Grihastha (householder), Vanaprastha
| (forest walker/forest dweller), and Sannyasa (renunciate). I
| always wonder if the ancient Indians really did that and how
| the society would have looked back then.
|
| With that said, modern Indian's diet is drastically different
| from what the ancients ate and also the daily physical
| work(insert yoga, going to rivers for water and rituals,
| farming etc) ancients must have done is very different. Not
| only that, the elders were considered scholarly and wise since
| they have the done the walk of life; and because of that, alms
| were given out by the Kings and other working men to the
| elderly. Today's society holds less relevance to all this and
| renunciation is clearly not an option and has faded away into
| the history.
|
| Vanaprastha (forest walker/forest dweller) aka. hiking, and
| Sannyasa (renunciate) aka. off-grid are the new age terms and I
| find that very interesting idea to purse at least for my old
| age.
| hluska wrote:
| Honestly friend, my Dad struggled with this before my Grandma
| died and while I'm blessed that both my parents are still in good
| health, I'll likely be in a similar place. Knowing my Dad and how
| he struggled, the only advice I can give is that you have to stay
| healthy through this process. My Dad has running, curling and
| riding his bike - those hobbies and social outlets really helped
| him through the kinds of necessary decisions that only have bad
| options.
|
| Aside from that, I'm sorry and wish you the absolute best.
| asiachick wrote:
| Watch Tokyo Story
|
| https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046438/
|
| #5 on this list
|
| https://www.theyshootpictures.com/gf1000_all1000films.htm
|
| Not sure it will actually be helpful but I found it interesting
| both in its topic and its conclusion, message.
|
| Note: My dad has alzheimer's His wife is taking care of him at
| the moment but we, my brother and I, can see he's mostly done and
| she's having a hard time. By "mostly done" I mean while he still
| seems like our Dad it feels more like he was replaced by a robot.
| He recognizes us and has lots of memories and can still have a
| conversation but he's got no "spirit", motivation, will. He does
| nothing. Apparently he'd have stayed in bed 24/7 if she hadn't
| moved the TV to the living room.
|
| We don't really know what to do or how to help. I suspect if she
| left we'd put him in a home. Neither of us have the time or
| inclination to be there for him. It doesn't help that he moved
| 2000 miles away for ~30yrs so as much as we love him he hasn't
| been a part of our lives. He's now ~100 miles away but even if he
| was 1 mile away I'm not sure what more we'd be willing to do.
| bserge wrote:
| My worthless thoughts:
|
| Try to talk them into some changes, if they don't agree, make
| sure they're certain and leave them be.
|
| It's their choice, and treating them like senile idiots like the
| other commenter said is just a major dick move.
|
| Whatever you do, don't stick them in the hospital on their death
| bed if they tell you they want to die at home.
|
| Imagine being 80-90, waiting to die and wishing it happens in
| your bed and your family sticks you on life support among
| strangers so you can "live" another week or month or goddamn
| year.
|
| No one deserves that.
| yodsanklai wrote:
| Your dad makes his own decisions. There's nothing you can do
| about this.
|
| I had a similar story with my grandmother. Eventually, she fell
| in the stairs (93 years old). At that stage, she had to move to
| the first floor but after her accident, she lost her autonomy
| fast and had no other choice for her other than going to a
| retirement home. She declined and died within a year. Quite a
| common story I believe.
| paulcole wrote:
| Personally, I file what you're describing as something that's not
| my problem.
|
| My parents are adults and I can't control the behavior of another
| adult. It's up to an adult to ask for help and if they won't they
| won't.
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