[HN Gopher] The Church of the Clocked Screws (2019)
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The Church of the Clocked Screws (2019)
Author : Tomte
Score : 72 points
Date : 2021-12-02 09:00 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (blog.lostartpress.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (blog.lostartpress.com)
| dw-im-here wrote:
| What if it's on the other side of the equator, do you have to
| screw it counterclock-wise?
| btbuildem wrote:
| > One of the women on our tour gasped when this was pointed out.
| "How," she asked, "did they do this?"
|
| They, uh.. paid attention to their work.
| ineedasername wrote:
| Zoom in on the photo. Lots of the screws are not perfect clocked.
| Some are pretty far off.
|
| Even using the author's method, the screw just isn't going to
| catch at the same point in the wood every time, so I think that a
| little margin on torque, or allowing for less-than-perfect, is
| required.
| JohnJamesRambo wrote:
| I'd rather someone screw the screws in to the perfect amount of
| tension for the job than worry about making all the screw heads
| line up and also waste time doing that. So I found the whole
| article a little exasperating. I guess there is something in
| there about form vs. function and how people see the world.
| mauvehaus wrote:
| They are the brown M&M's of the furniture world. Seeing
| haphazardly driven screws is an indicator that perhaps you
| should take a close look at everything else, because the
| builder may not have.
|
| Getting them pretty darned close doesn't require any
| extraordinary measures, and they're being driven into wood
| anyway. It's not like you're putting them in with a torque
| wrench according to some chart of screw size and material and
| wood species.
|
| Just don't over-torque brass screws to clock them. That's a
| sure fire way to break the head off.
| ineedasername wrote:
| I wouldn't consider non-clocked to have a haphazard
| appearance though. I would consider it haphazard if some
| screws were clearly driven in a bit too much, impressing
| the wood. Properly driven screws should either be done by
| hand or with an adjustable torque power driver.
| thesuitonym wrote:
| And just like brown M&Ms, they have no bearing on the
| quality of work done otherwise, it's only done to appease
| micromanagers.
| mauvehaus wrote:
| Respectfully, I do it to reflect the overall level of
| quality and care I put into building a piece. This is my
| business, so I assure you I'm not being micromanaged. I
| have been accused of being extremely detail-oriented
| though.
|
| Whether the customer notices or not is not my concern. I
| do it to maintain the same high level of work throughout
| the building process. It costs approximately zero extra
| time, and at the price of custom work, I don't want to be
| explaining to the customer that some detail doesn't
| matter if it's a small matter to do it right in the first
| place.
|
| Besides, I routinely put $75 worth of hinges _alone_ on a
| piece[0]. Not clocking the screws would be like putting
| on a $3000 suit, and then tying the tie with a granny
| knot and leaving it peeking out from under the collar.
|
| The fact that this level of attentiveness to detail and a
| will to do the job all the way right instead of just 90%
| right (or less) isn't much valued in software[1] has a
| lot to do with why I now build furniture instead.
|
| [0] https://brusso.com The quality and tolerances match
| the price, and they sell sizes and types of hinges that
| nobody else does.
|
| [1] Apologies if your company is one of the rare
| exceptions.
| progre wrote:
| If you have visable screwheads on your furniture at all
| that tells you all you need to know about the quality.
| function_seven wrote:
| Depends on the style of furniture. Campaign furniture [0]
| has all sorts of brass handles, hinges, and corner
| brackets with exposed screw heads (or nail heads, brads,
| etc.)
|
| Little details on other furniture types still expose a
| screw head. Like the strike plate on the locking
| mechanism of a desk drawer. Or the brackets on a
| secretary desk. A piano hinge on a piano.
|
| Even high-quality pieces of other styles will still use
| screws. They're not visible from a normal perspective,
| but can be seen from under a table for example.
| (Attaching a solid wood tabletop to the frame is often
| done with screws and figure eights to allow wood
| movement.) To someone who's really fussy, seeing those
| screws clocked the same way might spark joy or something.
| I don't know, seems a bit much to me.
|
| Now, exposed cam locks? Yeah, always an indicator of low
| quality :)
|
| [0] https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c4/1a/d5/c41ad527ebf77
| a580e76...
| progre wrote:
| Yes, sorry. Of course it depends on the style. Turns out
| my elitist prick side comes out after only 3 glases of
| wine.
| ineedasername wrote:
| >elitist prick side
|
| That's an unfortunate limitation. I'm able to bring out
| that side of me without any chemical assistance at all.
| exDM69 wrote:
| It's wood and mid-20th century slot head screws. A quarter a
| turn too tight or loose is fine and there's no such thing as
| perfect in anything made of wood anyway.
|
| The tradition of clocking screws may be a bit silly but it is
| a mark of attention to detail. It is something you see in
| bespoke heirloom furniture and it serves no practical value.
| ineedasername wrote:
| Something like this which _signals_ "attention to detail"
| but doesn't actually improve quality or stability isn't
| something I really care about. It's easy to be sloppy while
| putting the image of attention to detail in by non-
| functional surface appearance like clocked screws.
|
| If I'm looking for signs of quality then I want to see
| attention to detail where it matters, not for its own sake.
|
| That said, I can appreciate the aesthetic appeal even if
| it's non functional.
| sly010 wrote:
| Or just use hex head or torx head screws. It both works better
| and has 6x more chance that it will look perfect when torqued.
| buescher wrote:
| It applies to hand assembling electronics with through-hole
| resistors, also. Install them so the color code reads left-to-
| right in the most usual orientation of the board. Yes, it does
| not matter electrically which way you install them, but it makes
| it easier to read off values. Yes, I thought my boss from years
| ago who insisted I do it that way was crazy. Once you learn to
| notice it, though, resistors installed in inconsistent directions
| will bother you.
| CapitalistCartr wrote:
| By the way, this applies to electrical plates, too. Vertical is
| the one true path.
| avs733 wrote:
| My first job ever was doing new home wiring...learned a lot
| that has affected the way I approach engineering.
|
| The company standard was that all plate screws were left
| vertical, no exception. The master electrician and managers
| absolutely checked.
|
| I've long appreciated that level of attention to detail and now
| it drives my wife nuts when she puts a plate in something and I
| go back and tweak it.
|
| Meanwhile they let 14 year old me drive around between job
| sites to deliver pets but that's another story :).
| rob74 wrote:
| Actually, with that much attention to detail, maybe for a church
| they should have used Phillips screws - also "clocked" of course.
| Little crosses everywhere...
| jedimastert wrote:
| I know you're probably joking, but I looked it up and
| apparently the Philips drive was only just starting to be
| circulated to screw manufacturers when the church was built.
| TIL!
| cesaref wrote:
| We have a 100 year old grand piano, and our piano tech commented
| that the lid had previously been removed. He knew this because on
| this brand of piano, the screws would have been aligned
| horizontally when they left the factory, and the ones on our
| piano on this one hinge weren't.
|
| Once he'd pointed it out, it was obvious to see, and every other
| screw on the piano is horizontal.
| h2odragon wrote:
| See also "Indexed Spark Plugs"
|
| A few actual commercial production cars have tolerances tight
| enough to use that trick, and are dealership darlings because of
| that. At least those are documented. Engine tweakers who build
| that tight often regret it.
| mikestew wrote:
| I've heard that for years; but has anyone actually, you know,
| tested this on a dyno? A brief web search just turned up ad-
| laden pages talking about it, with no evidence that it actually
| works. My argument against is that by the time the spark plug
| fires, the intake valve has long since closed, and the air/fuel
| mixture has been swirling around and can reach that spark just
| fine, whether the electrode is "blocking" it or not.
|
| _Not that it matters, but ex-mechanic here, so I do have some
| idea how an ICE works._
| h2odragon wrote:
| Ive got two actual _personal_ encounters with them. Long ago
| someone who talked up his souped up motorcycle /gokart engine
| (with reason) explained it to me, shortly before that engine
| died wide and energetic. That was fun, and _may_ have had
| other causes :)
|
| Then my wife paid $1,800 for a "packs & plugs" job at a
| dealership, when our usual guy was aware that our Honda
| Insight had that issue and needed that attention and said
| he'd have charged $200 for it. _Individual part numbers_ for
| 3 plugs. But still. She was out of town and they talked her
| into "it's sputtering but it could blow up at any moment!"
| helpm33 wrote:
| I always clock screws in the electrical wall plates, for a
| vertical slot.
| ptha wrote:
| A little perspective from the other side, why screws aren't
| aligned in watchmaking:
|
| _Is it possible to machine a screw, tap the threads, and control
| the depth of the countersink so as to produce perfectly aligned
| slots? It is, and it 's been done, but it is also apparently a
| royal PITA, to indulge in some colorful vernacular. In poking
| around trying to find out if it's ever been done, and how you do
| it, I ran across the discussion forum at the Practical Machinist,
| where several different techniques are mentioned. You do find
| aligned screws in manufactured objects occasionally - Parker-
| brand shotguns are one example - but the various methods are
| extremely labor-intensive_
|
| https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/why-screw-slots-arent-alig...
| GuB-42 wrote:
| That's exactly the kind of thing I would expect on luxury
| watches.
|
| Let's get real, fancy mechanical watches are worse at
| timekeeping than cheap quartz watches. Their only purpose
| besides just being expensive is to show the incredible
| craftsmanship of the watchmaker.
|
| That aligning screws is so difficult should add to the value,
| I'd expect fancy watch people to say "this $10k watch doesn't
| have aligned screws, but that $100k one does", as an argument
| to justify the price difference. And I would totally get it.
| throw0101a wrote:
| Krishnadev Calamur, writing for _The Atlantic_ as part of
| their series on the Apollo 11 anniversary a few years ago:
|
| > _In other words, the Speedmaster and [mechanical] watches
| like it provide a sense of permanence in an age with little
| of it. The Speedmaster available today is virtually the same
| as the one Aldrin wore on the moon, or indeed the one Omega
| introduced way back in 1957, as a tool for race-car drivers._
|
| > _It is unchanged because there's nothing to change: The
| mechanical watch is, along with the bicycle, an arguably
| perfect invention. If wound every day and serviced regularly,
| it can run for perpetuity. There aren't many things you can
| say that about in our era of fast fashion and biennial phone
| upgrades._
|
| * https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/07/omega-
| sp...
| jeffwass wrote:
| In some cases it's difficult to clock the screw, as clocking it
| would leave it over or under torqued.
| rnicholus wrote:
| Last 3 paragraphs cover that specifically.
| klyrs wrote:
| If you're screwing into a tapped hole, yeah.
| mhb wrote:
| Obviously, that's what the shims are for.
| samwillis wrote:
| This is one of those disappearing details due to innovation. So
| few people now use flat head screws, it seems the technically
| "superior" Phillips and Pozidrive that taken over in all joinery
| now.
|
| As an aside everyone should know the difference between a
| Phillips and Pozidrive. It should be required teaching in schools
| to maintain everyone sanity. Pozidrive screws have a small
| engraved diagonal cross on the head, the driver has an extra
| ridge in the cross groove. Use the wrong screwdriver in the wrong
| screw and you will have a horrible time and wreck the screw head.
|
| I have my grandfathers flat head screwdrivers and love them. Long
| shafts to help with alignment and prevent riding out. Lovely big
| wooden handles to help with torque.
| btbuildem wrote:
| You can "clock" these as well. They have one more axis of
| symmetry than flatheads, but that just makes clocking easier.
| ineedasername wrote:
| _> everyone should know the difference between a Phillips and
| Pozidrive._
|
| I'm not sure about that: use of posidrive is somewhat regional.
| In the UK and Germany for example it's relatively common, while
| I don't think I have ever seen it "in the wild" in the US. In a
| browsing big-box home improvement stores I have never noticed
| them when looking at options, and the half dozen set I've
| accumulated over the years of screws driver sets that have a
| dozen bits have never include a posidrive driver.
|
| I'm not sure about other areas of the world.
| mauvehaus wrote:
| Frustratingly, IKEA uses pozi screws in some applications
| without including a driver. In the US, that poses some
| problems. The diagonal bracing on their beds requires running
| some self-tapping pozis into metal, and it is nigh impossible
| to do without the proper driver.
| tablespoon wrote:
| >>> As an aside everyone should know the difference between
| a Phillips and Pozidrive. It should be required teaching in
| schools to maintain everyone sanity.
|
| >> I'm not sure about that: use of posidrive is somewhat
| regional. In the UK and Germany for example it's relatively
| common, while I don't think I have ever seen it "in the
| wild" in the US.
|
| > Frustratingly, IKEA uses pozi screws in some applications
| without including a driver.
|
| IIRC, IKEA uses them in pretty much _all_ applications and
| almost _never_ includes a driver. An American who hasn 't
| specifically been taught about Pozidrive will almost
| certainly confuse them for Philips and have a frustrating
| experience, unless they're so non-handy or pressed for time
| that they bought their tools from IKEA as well.
|
| It's a weird situation: they're _very_ unusual, except in
| _one_ extremely popular area which is also the only place
| where many people will use tools.
| dosman33 wrote:
| One fun thing I enjoyed about IBM Global Services were some of
| the in-house developed tools we had access to.
|
| One tool they had which became invaluable was the screw starter
| for flat-head screws. This was nothing like other screw
| starters commercially available, this worked beautifully and
| was elegantly simple. It was a thin brass rod about 8" long
| with a pair of thin steel lips out each end which started out
| in-contact with each other. When you shoved the lips into the
| slot on the screw it shoved the lips back into the brass rod
| and caused them to spread open and grab onto the slot from the
| inside. It had enough strength to survive dropping the tool on
| the ground and not release the screw. The tool was strong
| enough that you could actually fully tighten smaller screws
| without switching to a screwdriver. There were two sizes of the
| screw starter and we all kept them stashed everywhere. Once you
| got used to using this tool then it became clear slotted screws
| were superior and sooo much easier to work with than
| Phillips/et. al. There were never problems with a screw
| dangling off of a magnetic tip when held sideways, or non-
| ferrous screws not sticking.
|
| Another in-house tool was the very simple "thumb saver" for
| screwing in PC peripheral connectors like VGA and DB9 cables.
| It was an 6" plastic tube with 1/2" slotted interior ends which
| fit over the thumb screws on the thumb screws. There was a
| different diameter hole on each end and it tapered to a smaller
| diameter as the hole went deeper. It made it cake to reach in
| and remove a single set of thumb screws when the back of a
| system was jammed up with lots of other cables in the way or if
| you had giant man hands. You could also easily over-torque the
| screws when re-attaching so guys had to be careful using them.
|
| The SSA screw driver was another one, this was a custom screw
| driver for IBM's SSA storage system. My recollection was that
| IBM had proposed SSA to be the SCSI III spec and was rejected,
| so they ran with it anyway for use with RS/6000 (pSeries/System
| P/whatever). It was a serial implementation of SCSI and had
| these narrow blue/black cables and could transfer up to 40MB/s.
| The cables were a PITA to deal with as they were small and
| required the use of the screw driver because there was very
| little space to work around each connector so no thumb-screws.
| There was nothing terribly unique about the screw driver, it
| was slotted but had a sleeve tube shrouding the tip to keep the
| screw driver from slipping off. They required a bit of torque
| to fully tighten, but not too much. Occasionally some guy got
| the brilliant idea to cut the handle off one and jam it in a
| power driver. However no screw drivers we easily had access to
| had a low enough torque setting for this and these geniuses
| would usually end up breaking lots of connector ports on SSA
| arrays.
| aardvark179 wrote:
| And JIS screws look very like Phillips, but are also subtly
| different.
| mhb wrote:
| Phillips is designed to cam out:
| https://www.ifixit.com/News/9903/bit-history-the-phillips
| progre wrote:
| The cam-out feature maybe made sense back in the dark ages
| when the people used actual screwdrivers. Now, in the age of
| cheap lithium battery power tools, this feature is less
| handy. Even with the torqe-limiter enabled on the Ryobi I
| have ruined _many_ bits and even more screws due to cam-out.
| progre wrote:
| Is this specific to woodworking? For general use everyting is
| Torx where I live. Clearly superior if you have decent bits
| (throw away those that come with the box of screws, they seem
| to be made of mud and sawdust).
| GuB-42 wrote:
| In France it is mostly Pozidriv, electronics and small
| appliances are usually Philips, Ikea is hex, we still see
| slotted screws but they are a dying breed, Torx is getting
| more and more popular.
|
| Still, when you go to your local hardware store, the kind of
| cheap screws that are sold in bulk are usually Pozidriv. Torx
| screws are also available but usually in more expensive,
| branded, retail packaging.
| GrumpyNl wrote:
| In Canada i have use squared torques, they are superior. Cant
| find them anywhere else.
| samwillis wrote:
| My experience in the UK. Seeing more and more Torx though.
| Much prefer it to Pozidrive!
|
| Torx really should be used with an electrical screwdriver
| with a clutch though or you risk snapping the screws if you
| over tighten.
|
| Philips and Pozidrive are designs to ride out before snapping
| the screw head off.
| Xerneos wrote:
| Torx seems to be the superior head to me as well. The rest of
| the country (big chain hardware stores) seem to be still
| stuck with mostly Philips and Pozidrive.
| fho wrote:
| At least for machine screws I buy Torx is easily twice the
| price of regular socket head screws:
|
| [100 'old-school' M3x5 screws](https://www.screwsandmore.de
| /de/sortiment/schrauben-und-bolz...) [50 Torx M3x5 screws](
| https://www.screwsandmore.de/de/sortiment/schrauben-und-
| bolz...)
| throw0101a wrote:
| > it seems the technically "superior" Phillips and Pozidrive
| that taken over in all joinery now.
|
| Robertson4Life.
| ableal wrote:
| https://www.woodmagazine.com/wood-supplies/fasteners-
| hardwar...
|
| First I heard of them. Looks like that, in a pinch, a flat-
| head driver could turn it ...
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| Nope. It's a tapered square. One of the few driver bits
| where you can put a screw on the end of drill, then
| hang/swing the drill from the screw alone. A slotted driver
| will not work, at all.
|
| (I'm Canadian. Robertson is _the_ most common driver type
| here, except for imported products.)
| stan_rogers wrote:
| It is the One True Screw, amen.
| xattt wrote:
| Can I interest you in the Torah of Torx?
| stan_rogers wrote:
| Torx rather sucks in comparison. Sorry if the truth
| hurts.
| bluGill wrote:
| Still better than Phillips.
| gonzo wrote:
| most things are.
| skeeter2020 wrote:
| They definitely have the "meatest" torque-y feeling when you
| really get your elbow up high and crank into one... Super
| satisfying and something I wouldn't even dream of attempting
| with other bits!
| [deleted]
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