[HN Gopher] Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains
___________________________________________________________________
Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains
Author : bmc7505
Score : 660 points
Date : 2021-11-29 08:20 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (blog.jetbrains.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (blog.jetbrains.com)
| quanticle wrote:
| What can Fleet do that VSCode doesn't already do better? I'm
| looking at the architecture description [1], and it seems like
| it's set up almost identically to how VSCode handles remote
| editing and language servers. Sure, Fleet is integrated with
| JetBrains' Spaces, but will that ever stand up to Github's
| offerings?
|
| I use both VSCode and JetBrains' IDEs in my day-to-day work so I
| would consider myself as having one foot in either camp, but I'm
| really struggling to come up with anything positive to say about
| Fleet, and the description that they've posted isn't doing
| anything to help me with that.
|
| [1] https://www.jetbrains.com/fleet/#distributive
| wokwokwok wrote:
| Well, I mean to be fair the coding services for most languages
| in vscode other than js (ie java, c, rust, python, go, php, c#,
| ruby specifically) suck totally compared to the JB tooling.
|
| Let's not play "pretend vscode is amazing" here today.
|
| The plug-ins for many languages are of massively varying
| quality and some of them _really suck_.
|
| The only thing they having going for them is being free.
|
| So... It's pretty questionable to say:
|
| > What can Fleet do that VSCode doesn't already do better?
|
| Obviously, support languages with the full range of JB tooling,
| that is _categorically better_ than the pathetic support vscode
| offers for, say, c#.
|
| ...but, those tools cost $$$, and if you mean, "is it _worth
| paying for_ the things Fleet can do over vscode...?" Well...
| it's hard to say.
|
| Probably not for most vscode users.
| quanticle wrote:
| >Well, I mean to be fair the coding services for most
| languages in vscode other than js (ie java, c, rust, python,
| go, php, c#, ruby specifically) suck totally compared to the
| JB tooling.
|
| I have to disagree. JetBrains' tooling is superior for Java
| and Kotlin. For C#, Visual Studio is pretty good these days,
| even without Resharper. For everything else VSCode is
| unquestionably better. I can just point VSCode at a directory
| full of Python files with a virtualenv, and VSCode just "gets
| it", and lets me jump right in to editing, with autocomplete
| and suggestions. With PyCharm, I have to manually configure
| the interpreter root, set the project root, and wait for it
| to do a bunch of indexing before I can do anything at all.
| Yes, once it's all set up, I have _marginally_ better
| suggestions, but as VSCode 's Python tooling gets better,
| that setup cost becomes less and less worth it.
|
| >The plug-ins for many languages are of massively varying
| quality and some of them _really suck_.
|
| Agreed, but that cuts both ways. I would argue that, at this
| point, VSCode's Calva plugin for Clojure is superior to
| IntelliJ's Cursive. Similarly, I found VSCode's Rust plugin
| to be easier to set up and get started with in a WSL
| environment than the Rust plugin for CLion. Sure, VSCode's
| support for Java is a garbage fire and its support for Kotlin
| is nigh non-existent, but as far as I'm concerned, both sides
| have pretty huge blind-spots when it comes to languages that
| are "second-class citizens" for their respective ecosystems.
|
| >Obviously, support languages with the full range of JB
| tooling, that is _categorically better_ than the pathetic
| support vscode offers for, say, c#.
|
| Whether the tooling can be categorically better is difficult
| to say. After all, the architecture of Fleet is pretty much
| the same as the architecture of VSCode. They're both editors
| which use a client-server architecture to enable suggestions
| and remote editing. I'm not sure how much of JetBrains' IDE
| work will translate over, and I'm not sure how much of it
| they want to bring over. As I stated in my other comment [1],
| unlike Microsoft, JetBrains doesn't have anything except its
| IDEs. They don't have a cloud platform that is more important
| to them than IDE sales. The IDEs are everything to them, and
| instead of making the IDEs better they're off chasing
| taillights.
|
| This seems like a mid-2010s Mozilla maneuver (like FirefoxOS)
| and I hope it doesn't do as much damage to JetBrains as
| FirefoxOS did to Mozilla.
|
| [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29377859
| albertzeyer wrote:
| The last time I compared the Python support in VSCode to
| PyCharm, the difference was still very huge when it came to
| more complex situations, where PyCharm usually handled the
| situation much better.
|
| And also the speed. PyCharm was by far much faster (I mean
| specifically the code parsing, auto completion, etc).
| quanticle wrote:
| Hard disagree on speed. PyCharm, in my experience, has
| better support for refactoring and jump-to-
| definition/declaration, but it comes at a huge cost in
| speed. PyCharm will quite happily lock up, even on a
| high-end Macbook Pro, as it reindexes everything, just
| because you had the temerity to add a package to
| requirements.txt. VSCode chugs right along, staying
| responsive, picking up the new code in the background.
| pauleveritt wrote:
| Hi, I'm with JetBrains. Can you describe the "lock up"?
| Indexing in general is background.
| wokwokwok wrote:
| > For C#, Visual Studio is pretty good these day
|
| We're not talking about visual studio. We're talking about
| vscode.
|
| You wanted to know why someone would use it over vscode:
| the answer is that vscode has poor support for some
| languages.
|
| Whether you personally prefer the vscode tooling in say
| rust, to the debugger in clion is your personal choice; but
| you are misrepresenting the situation if you say the
| latter, with different/more features, is of no value to
| anyone.
|
| > I'm not sure how much of JetBrains' IDE work will
| translate over, and I'm not sure how much of it they want
| to bring over.
|
| Well, if you caveat your opinion with the assumption that
| the product will be worse than their other existing
| products, poorly executed and poorly supported, that's a
| fair reason to think it won't be any good.
|
| ...and to be fair, jetbrains _have_ struggled with their
| various online service offerings.
|
| ...but, if you _assume it's a failure_ don't ask why you
| might think it would _be useful_.
|
| You've already decided that without trying it. What can I
| say? You're right. If it's shit, there no reason you would
| use it over vscode.
|
| Maybe it will be; I personally, don't think it's clear at
| this point that's the case, yet.
| quanticle wrote:
| >You've already decided that without trying it. What can
| I say? You're right. If it's shit, there no reason you
| would use it over vscode.
|
| Microsoft had a clear incentive to make VSCode not shit:
| Azure, Visual Studio Online, and, later, Github. But what
| is JetBrains' incentive to make Fleet good?
| wokwokwok wrote:
| How should I know wtf their product plan is?
|
| Maybe they want to transition people from "pays x per
| month" for an IDE license to "pays per hour of usage" on
| Spaces as a payment model because it's more granular
| which means more reliable billing? (Same as yearly ->
| monthly they did previously?
|
| Maybe they have analytics that shows year-on-year decline
| in desktop IDE usage vs. hosted IDE usage and they want
| to be part of that market?
|
| Maybe they want to gather a big base of free-tier users
| that they can up sell hosted plans to?
|
| Why do you think they're doing it? 'Cause they're a bunch
| of clueless idiots?
|
| Come on, jetbrains is many things, and not all of them
| good, but clueless idiots they are not.
|
| Fleet may end up being a failure because it is _poorly
| executed_ , because it conflicts with the goals of other
| teams, or for product reasons (eg. turns out it's
| $30/month).
|
| ...but it's not a _forgone conclusion_ at this point.
| Come on dude, give it the benefit of the doubt ffs.
|
| Why would you cling to vscode and never try anything
| else, and critique anyone for _even trying_ to make
| something similar, or maybe better?
|
| That's weird.
| quanticle wrote:
| >Come on, jetbrains is many things, and not all of them
| good, but clueless idiots they are not.
|
| They don't have to be clueless idiots to make bad
| decisions. Mozilla wasn't staffed by clueless idiots
| either, but they still did FirefoxOS. Microsoft is
| definitely not staffed by clueless idiots, but they've
| made more boneheaded decisions than I can count.
|
| >Why would you cling to vscode and never try anything
| else, and critique anyone for even trying to make
| something similar, or maybe better?
|
| I never said I was clinging to VSCode. In this thread, I
| mentioned that I use both JetBrains products and VSCode.
| I switch between the repeatedly over the course of a
| workday, and so I see the contrast between them
| repeatedly. What I don't understand is why JetBrains is
| making a product that is like VSCode but with fewer
| features and less developer mindshare?
|
| You keep saying, "Give it the benefit of the doubt," but
| why should I do that? Every year JetBrains' products gets
| slower, more memory hungry, and stagnate in terms of
| features. Now, instead of actually focusing on their IDE
| platform, I see them devoting resources first to Spaces,
| and now to Fleet. Yes, _for the moment_ IntelliJ is still
| the class leading Java IDE. Kotlin, same, but JetBrains
| owns Kotlin so it 's no surprise that their tooling is
| the best. But other than those two specific ecosystems,
| JetBrains is falling behind.
|
| PyCharm used to be peerless, but VSCode caught up. Their
| Go tooling is behind VSCode (and so far as I can tell,
| always has been). Their Rust support is inferior. In
| Typescript and Javascript, the advantage belongs to
| VSCode, even by your own admission. They might have a
| better PHP editor, but who cares? PHP isn't nearly as
| relevant as it used to be.
|
| From my perspective, JetBrains is going down the exact
| same trajectory that Mozilla went down when Google came
| out with Chrome. Instead of buckling down and focusing on
| making their core product truly excellent, they diluted
| themselves on all sorts of side projects that, while
| interesting, never had a real chance of replacing the one
| product that they're known for.
| underdeserver wrote:
| Yep. Honestly, if Jetbrains made a perfect clone of VSCode,
| but with all the language support and plugins I use remade in
| high quality, I'd be happy to pay for it.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| ivanstame wrote:
| Not that exciting tbh. You showed nothing new and it's probably
| going to be paid software (closed source for sure), and comparing
| that to VSCode + Copilot (which is blowing my mind day by day) I
| don't see why would I switch. And that pair programming session
| is so faaaaaake.
| polycaster wrote:
| Is this the beginning of JetBrains trying to reiterate what MS
| did with VSCode + Copilot?
|
| After I spend a couple of weeks with Copilot I must say it works
| more or less as advertised (the exceptions are funny though) and
| there is no comparable product in sight. In the business of
| development tooling this is probably a feature not to miss in the
| long run if you prefer to stay in said business.
|
| I realize there is Copilote integration for JetBrains IDEs as
| well. But it's one thing to have access to a resource. And
| another to have control over it.
| politelemon wrote:
| Looking through the features, and the similarity of the
| architecture, looks like this is meant to compete with VS Code.
| Even the Settings implementation has the same
| global/user/workspace hierarchy; there's the 'trusted' code
| concept too. The one thing that might make it stand out is the
| smart mode: lightweight editor by default, and enabling it brings
| in the heavier IDE features.
|
| Anecdotally I've stopped using Jetbrains IDEs due to the bloat
| factor and their relatively poor Linux support, where VSCode has
| been providing excellent support and still manages to stay
| lightweight (though, it's starting to get notification heavy,
| isn't it?). Fleet is aimed at people like us so I'm willing to
| give it a try, but expectations are low.
| selfhoster11 wrote:
| What do you see as poor Linux support?
| vially wrote:
| Not op, but for me the lack of native Wayland support is a
| deal breaker. And running it through XWayland has various
| issues (focus is broken, issues with HighDPI screens, etc).
|
| If Fleet supports Wayland natively I might give it a try,
| otherwise it's dead on arrival for me.
| kaba0 wrote:
| As far as I know jetbrains did start to write a wayland
| backend for sway. But it is most probably a project with
| very low priority.
| politelemon wrote:
| My mistake on the wording, I should have said "mediocre",
| perhaps. I can't edit the comment now, oops sorry.
|
| I am referring to lack of an installer, and also the default
| shortcuts which clash with the distro, and in general I've
| seen features come to Linux a lot later. So a better way to
| put it is that Linux feels like an afterthought to Jetbrains.
| I do follow and also raise issues you on YouTrack but find
| they often languish.
|
| Their IDEs are still overall pretty good, but I gravitate
| towards VS Code now.
| ta988 wrote:
| The installer is called jetbrains Toolbox. Never had any
| issues on systems with i3, gnome, sway...
| cluoma wrote:
| Installing single IDEs is clunky. Basically it's up to
| you to put it where you want and then create any
| shortcuts you may need. Flatpaks make this easier but I
| would rather not use them.
|
| Besides this, I never really felt that Linux was an
| afterthought though. At least from my experience using
| CLion.
| Osiris wrote:
| I've been using WebStorm exclusively on Linux with i3 for more
| over 3 years. I haven't run into any issues with it at all.
| Even the JetBrains Toolbox and automatic updates works fine.
| dubcanada wrote:
| I get what you are saying, but you are aware VSCode is an
| entire web browser with a small coding engine. Jetbrains IDEs
| while built with Java are at least native code. Jetbrain IDEs
| are also full IDEs, not notepads with a few extras. It's rather
| hard to compare the two, a proper comparison would be something
| like Visual Studio.
| cxr wrote:
| > you are aware VSCode is an entire web browser [...]
| Jetbrains IDEs [...] are at least native code
|
| So? You wouldn't tell a non-programmer something like this
| about an app that they use and expect it to make a
| difference. The results--the effect that the program produces
| --is the only thing that matters. If JetBrains manages to
| produce an IDE where you're constantly confronted with bloat
| while you're using it, and using something else would
| alleviate some of that pain, whether the alternative is
| "native code" or not, then that's the only thing that matters
| --not architectural purity.
|
| (Side note: is the fundamental theorem behind your statement
| even true? If I download and run IntelliJ right now is it
| bytecode running on the JVM, or is it Java/Kotlin AOT-
| compiled to native object files? Poking around
| 'ideaIC-2021.2.3.tar.gz', there are an awful lot of
| classfile-containing JARs in `lib/`, and `bin/idea.sh` ends
| like this: # ------------------------------
| --------------------------------------- # Run the
| IDE. # ----------------------------------------------
| ----------------------- IFS="$(printf '\n\t')"
| # shellcheck disable=SC2086 "$JAVA_BIN" \
| -classpath "$CLASSPATH" \ ${VM_OPTIONS} \
| "-XX:ErrorFile=$HOME/java_error_in_idea_%p.log" \
| "-XX:HeapDumpPath=$HOME/java_error_in_idea_.hprof" \
| "-Djb.vmOptionsFile=${USER_VM_OPTIONS_FILE:-${VM_OPTIONS_FILE
| }}" \ ${IDE_PROPERTIES_PROPERTY} \ -Djava
| .system.class.loader=com.intellij.util.lang.PathClassLoader
| -Didea.vendor.name=JetBrains
| -Didea.paths.selector=IdeaIC2021.2
| -Didea.platform.prefix=Idea -Didea.jre.check=true
| -Dsplash=true \ com.intellij.idea.Main \
| "$@"
|
| _Non_ -side note: no matter what the answer is, don't get
| sidetracked into thinking that it makes a difference to what
| actually matters.)
| xvilka wrote:
| If it's in Java it's not exactly lightweight.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| VSCode is Electron. You can't be more heavyweight.
| bionade24 wrote:
| You never started any Java-based IDE, did you? You can smack
| tons of plugins into VSCode, enable them all and it still
| loads faster.
|
| Not using any of the above mentioned anymore, so I'm not
| teaming for one site.
| kaba0 wrote:
| Even with all those plugins it does a fraction of what
| IntelliJ provides, so it is apples to oranges.
|
| Java itself doesn't have that slow of a startup.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| If it's got IntelliJ's keybindings, I'm game. I've been a
| JetBrains user/customer for just under 20 years, and my brain is
| now hardwired for them. I've got a residual part of my brain that
| can do Emacs, but VSCode has never been pleasant for me, so I'm
| into this if they can do it right.
| tluyben2 wrote:
| Little bit offtopic; I try jetbrains ide's every time I get a new
| laptop; lately Rider for a 1m+ LoC c# project on my 16gb m1. It
| is unusable. I like the features but it is so incredibly slow...
| and it gets even slower as the day goes on.
| bosie wrote:
| Which bits are slow?
| gjvc wrote:
| The culprit is the JDK11-based JBR. I was ready to dump
| JetBrains tools due to their lagginess, but with some
| deviousness (which might not suit you), I now have them running
| slipperier than a wet fish, by using JDK15/16 and JAOTC.
|
| Instructions are here:
| https://iam.georgecox.com/2021/11/24/making-jetbrains-ides-r...
|
| (I am very keen to tell people who are in the same despair as I
| was about how slow JetBrains apps are out of the box -- hope
| it's not considered bad form to link to one's own blog post
| about it.)
| tluyben2 wrote:
| I will try this now; thanks for that!
| gjvc wrote:
| please email me if you have any corrections / suggestions
| for improvement for the instructions :-)
| citizenmatt wrote:
| Please note that the JBR is a custom build that contains
| a number of important changes and fixes, and it's not
| recommended to replace this. For M1 support, it's much
| better to use an M1 compatible JVM and .NET runtime.
| Rider 2021.2 is an Intel build, because when it was
| released there was no M1 compatible .NET Runtime.
|
| Rider 2021.3 has an M1 build, and makes a big difference.
| It's currently in preview
| (https://www.jetbrains.com/rider/nextversion/) but will
| be released in the next week or so.
| gjvc wrote:
| Liberica offers an M1 JVM https://bell-
| sw.com/announcements/2021/03/12/Liberica-on-App...
|
| I wonder if JetBrains has some incentive to keep Mac
| users happy at the expense of others, because there is no
| justification for the unacceptably bad performance of
| CLion, PyCharm, and IDEA with a version 11 JDK on Linux,
| given how much better it is on JDK 15/16.
|
| I have never seen any indication that they have are going
| to address this, nor have they even acknowledged that
| it's a problem, nor that they intend to upgrade from JDK
| 11 to something more up-to-date. Still, they have 1 year
| and 10 months from now until the end of active support,
| so perhaps this might provoke them into action.
|
| The fact that JBR even exists is a red flag. Should every
| vendor ship their own JVM?!
| vips7L wrote:
| I was under the impression that the JBR is missing a
| number of important changes and fixes that have already
| been mainlined into OpenJdk.
| gjvc wrote:
| Would love to see some examples of this please :-)
| [deleted]
| phonicwheel wrote:
| Just in case you haven't tried that yet, increase the IDE's
| memory heap size. That solved the problem of sluggishness for
| me.
| m_eiman wrote:
| Why hasn't Java added an option for automatic heap sizing for
| the desktop application use case (or any use case, for that
| matter)? Seems like a no-brainer thing to add, so I guess
| there are Reasons(tm).
| native_samples wrote:
| It has. Modern JVMs can use as much memory as they "need"
| to, but for some reason JetBrains don't use this feature. I
| think after they upgrade to Java 17 they'll get it. But
| this has really killed their brand for a long time. 99% of
| the time people complain about their IDEs being slow it's
| because the app is GC thrashing and burning CPU rather than
| increase heap size.
| vips7L wrote:
| I was under the impression that every gc still defaulted
| -Xmx to 25% of available memory.
| kaba0 wrote:
| It is configured by jetbrains (I guess to not use as much
| memory as Java would default to)
| minimaul wrote:
| If you're not using the EAP build of Rider, you're running an
| Intel IDE on that M1 laptop (see: https://rider-
| support.jetbrains.com/hc/en-us/articles/440192... ).
|
| Try the Rider EAP with .net 6 - I find native arm64 .net
| _flies_ on my M1 mac mini and M1 Max 14 " MBP.
| FpUser wrote:
| I have 3 main development computers on which I use CLion. One
| is shared duty workstation/server with 20 cores and 512GB RAM
| another is main desktop desktop with 16 cores and 128GB RAM and
| 3rd is tiny small factor PC with 8 cores and 128GB RAM which I
| drag around to summer cottage etc.
|
| CLion is very fast on either. I guess gobbles of RAM counts. I
| also have laptops with 32GB RAM each but did not try it on
| those as I no longer use laptops for development (no business
| need).
|
| Still as my main development language for backend is C++ I
| mostly use Visual Studio. Especially since their preview
| version allows seamless development / debugging on remote Linux
| server. Hard to describe but it just fits me better, feels more
| "natural".
| HatchedLake721 wrote:
| Have you waited for indexing to finish?
| maratc wrote:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/9v7i1w/tha.
| ..
| tdrdt wrote:
| That's strange. When I open a 1m+ LoC in Rider it takes around
| 2GB of RAM [1] but is still very workable. Ofcourse it is not
| extremely fast but I am always impressed this even works with
| all the code hints, indexed code and what not.
|
| By the way, sometimes a corrupted cache can be a problem. You
| can fix this via File -> Invalidate Caches.
|
| [1] AMD Ryzen 9 3900X, 32GB RAM, NVMe disk. Ubuntu.
| yutijke wrote:
| I wonder if this a reaction to Microsoft gaining developer
| mindshare through VSCode, Github codespaces and other
| integrations around VSCode?
|
| It could also have been a response to requests for better remote
| development support due to the WFH situation in the last ~1.5
| years.
|
| Don't know if there is a way for use to know which one though.
| Shadonototra wrote:
| Hopefully they keep their promise and the IDE stays lightweight
| with time!
|
| And their debugger, i hope i can use it to debug native
| programs..
|
| If the debugger is open, that alone will be massive
|
| That is one area where VSCode sucks, specially for native
| programs
| gigatexal wrote:
| Built from scratch ehh? I wonder what it'll be priced at. It
| seems promising. DOA without vim bindings though.
| rk06 wrote:
| What? Vim bindings is not a deal breaker for majority of users.
|
| The decisive factor will be what does it bring over vscode?
| gigatexal wrote:
| > The decisive factor will be what does it bring over vscode?
|
| Hopefully a native, non-electron mess. I'm excited to check
| it out. Plugins should fix any holes with respect to vim mode
| ;-).
| [deleted]
| dmitriid wrote:
| > DOA without vim bindings though.
|
| The number of users pining for Vim and Vim bindings is greatly
| exaggerated.
| gigatexal wrote:
| Sure, for users who don't mind not having it. But for me I
| can't use anything without it. I vim all the things: my
| browser, my editor (vim of course), and will sure as shit
| shill for anything that makes more than a half baked effort
| to cater to my vim obsession. So for <i>me</i> it's a deal
| breaker, might not be for you.
| johnchristopher wrote:
| I wish it wasn't though. I am so addicted to vim :/. Not even
| a hard core vim script maker or anything though and every 9
| months I try to either add IDE features to vim (and give up)
| or add vim features to an IDE (and give up).
|
| Vim, not even once.
| Accacin wrote:
| I had a very overcomplicated set-up to for JS/TS/web stuff
| and recently I decided I'd like to simplify a little.
|
| So now I just install Neovim and then clone LunarVim :)
| Yeah, my own custom config is probably more slimline, but
| LunarVim has more functionality and started up faster than
| my personal config.
|
| I disable a few things and tweak some bindings, but other
| than that it let's me actually develop things rather than
| tweaking my config.
|
| Maybe I'll revisit this in the future, but for now I'm
| happy and probably more productive.
| donatzsky wrote:
| Not a vim user myself, but it seems like Neovim is getting
| close to what you want. Of course, there's always Emacs
| with Evil mode.
| johnchristopher wrote:
| Onivim was what I wanted but alas the project ran out of
| money https://github.com/onivim/oni2/issues/3811#issuecom
| ment-9103...
|
| I really wanted a visual debugger I could use with the
| mouse like the one from Visual Studio Code.
|
| So far there a no visual debugger tool like in any of the
| GUI project I know of that embed neovim.
| boloust wrote:
| The IntelliJ vim plugin has over 11 million downloads.
|
| For comparison, the most downloaded plugin is Kotlin, which
| has 34 million downloads, followed by Scala, which has 22
| million downloads.
| dmitriid wrote:
| Even I have Kotlin downloaded, and I've never ever used it.
|
| Number of downloads is a rather poor proxy for actual
| usage.
| f311a wrote:
| I downloaded it many times myself bet never get used to it.
| There are too many conflicts with other key bindings.
| pizza wrote:
| While we're all here, does anyone know how to make CLion a lot
| snappier? It seems to get reeally slow once you're working on a
| pretty sizable codebase
| curyous wrote:
| It is supposed to be fast, but starts up in "seconds". Shame.
| mshroyer wrote:
| VS Code also starts in "seconds" on my machine, so if that's
| what they're targeting it's probably a success.
| davidkunz wrote:
| Vim/Neovim is practically instant, everything else it too
| slow in my book.
| codemusings wrote:
| Yeah turns out the language server and other IDE features
| are resource intensive. Who knew. TextEdit also starts in
| under a second.
| idontwantthis wrote:
| I use Vim with a language server and 10 other plugins
| that give me almost everything JetBrains offers. Only
| thing JetBrains is so much better at is fixing merge
| conflicts. Vim still starts instantly, and I never have
| to wait for it to index anything.
|
| JetBrains is amazing, but I hate waiting for it. It stops
| me from starting work. Maybe that's just my problem.
| davidkunz wrote:
| Why not starting them asynchronously? That's how Neovim
| does it. The editor starts instantly and the language
| server integration is enabled once the language server is
| active.
| oblio wrote:
| Considering the tools developers use in general (Visual
| Studio, VS Code, Eclipse, IntelliJ, Netbeans, various DB
| browsers, etc.), application start up time doesn't seem to
| be an important concern for the majority.
| Osiris wrote:
| My IDE stays open (I keep all the common projects I work
| on open and just switch between them as needed). I rarely
| reboot. Startup time is completely irrelevant.
| iainmerrick wrote:
| You typically leave an IDE open most of the time, and
| maybe start it up in the morning at most a few times a
| week.
|
| For that, a cold launch time of a couple of seconds (VS
| Code) is fine, tens of seconds (Eclipse, XCode) is
| annoying.
|
| Opening new files definitely needs to be instantaneous.
| hawk_ wrote:
| Once vs code and similar are up, the observed latency in
| opening additional files is what matters to most devs
| though.
| awild wrote:
| On a given workday I always have at least one window of
| vscodr open that makes opening new files much faster than a
| cold start like vim et al are used
| benibela wrote:
| On my old laptop, it took like 15 minutes to start IntelliJ
| IDEA
| greenmana wrote:
| Doesnt' really matter in my daily life if some IDE takes 0.1 or
| 10 seconds to start, since it's done so rarely. Might be more
| annoying with an editor if you're opening files often, then it
| starts to add up. Or if the editor is slow with editing and
| scrolling big files, like VSCode is.
| urthor wrote:
| exactly this.
|
| I take 30 minutes to get into flow state, how long the IDE
| takes to start is irrelevant.
| tdrdt wrote:
| To me it sounds like this is used to test a rewrite of all their
| IDEs because it is written from scratch.
|
| I can imagine if this becomes a succes they will update all their
| IDEs or use Fleet as the new platform.
| hinkley wrote:
| Often, there are one or two voices inside of a company that
| have the same complaints as customers, but they can't get any
| traction on the issue until users complain about it. I've been
| on several projects where we coached or were coached about
| asking our boss to ask their boss for something with a specific
| keyword that they could use for leverage.
|
| In college, I left my ATM card in a machine and the person
| behind me pulled out the max daily limit on my account. I don't
| think the cops were able to ID him off of the grainy back-lit
| video from the machine. This was a new model of ATM that had
| worse ergonomics than the previous one. Turns out someone at
| the bank already hated these machines, and he arranged to
| refund me the lost money (which I'm fairly sure now he would
| have had to do anyway) in exchange for a signed complaint that
| he could add to his evidence trove.
|
| "People are dumb. A person is smart." also applies to
| companies.
|
| The thing is that if you're too rude when you make a complaint,
| you make bad evidence. If you're too polite, the same is also
| true. "We should fix this because this totally happy customer
| said we should" might work once in a while but it's easier to
| sell your boss on "customers are pissed about X which is also
| pissing me off." I struggle to find the right line between the
| two when I have to call customer support. Since I don't usually
| like to call CS at all, when I do it's usually because I'm
| pretty spun up.
| sam_lowry_ wrote:
| To me it sounds like they are trying to counter the assault of
| VSCode onto their market share.
| agilob wrote:
| Over year ago JetBrains released a post showing they don't
| understand why VSCode eats their market:
|
| > Still, we don't deny the information could be a bit skewed -
| even with the weighting we give to our survey results - given
| that this is from the JetBrains State of Developer Ecosystem
| survey, and one of JetBrains main products is IntelliJ IDEA.
| However, that is not to say that this is not totally
| unreasonable, as if we look at other surveys, IntelliJ IDEA is
| usually one the most used IDEs, and usually has around a 55-60%
| share of users. VS Code is growing which is concerning, not
| from a competitive point of view but actually from the point of
| view that there is clearly a lack of understanding of what an
| IDE gives you. VS Code is a code editor with some features that
| you'd find in an IDE, and extensions that can provide
| additional functionality - so if people are turning to VS Code
| for developing it may imply that developers don't know what a
| fully-featured IDE can give them. In the web space it is
| understandable to use an editor as web developers are typically
| working with dynamic languages, and often use other tools like
| browser plugins to give them what they need. But in Java,
| especially professional Java, you really get a lot out of a
| good tool that has integration with the application server and
| you can really use the analysis and refactoring and everything.
|
| Specifically this part:
|
| > VS Code is growing which is concerning, not from a
| competitive point of view but actually from the point of view
| that there is clearly a lack of understanding of what an IDE
| gives you.
|
| https://blog.jetbrains.com/idea/2020/09/a-picture-of-java-in...
|
| People moved from IntelliJ to VSC because it was faster,
| simpler and language-agnostic, instead JetBrains blamed users
| for not using advanced features like CPU profiling which most
| people don't use daily. They are jumping on simple-editor train
| now. Better late than never
| KronisLV wrote:
| I wouldn't go as far as to say that they don't understand,
| merely that a different viewpoint was expressed:
|
| > ...there is clearly a lack of understanding of what an IDE
| gives you.
|
| This is most definitely true for many people who have largely
| gotten used to dynamic languages and have only used text
| editors or have only experienced VS Code with plugins,
| because it's wonderfully easy to run and use, even if its
| feature set is lesser than that of many of JetBrains'
| products.
|
| Where it all gets a bit muddier is finding the distinction
| between "not knowing" and "not caring/needing".
|
| For many use cases out there, VS Code with plugins will be
| more than enough!
|
| But for working on an enterprise Java/.NET/... codebase and
| applying refactoring across dozens if not hundreds of files,
| something a bit more might be necessary. When working with
| the Eldritch abomination that the Spring framework and its
| many integrations are, you better have tooling that provides
| you with smart hints, fixes and autocomplete suggestions, as
| well as context sensitive parsing of your dozens of XML/YAML
| configuration files and their values.
|
| When you're trying to trace down a race condition across
| hundreds of proxied Java classes, where the framework
| rewrites and calls your code with reflection so it's really
| hard to actually debug anything outside of your code, you
| better have a good debugger and the possibility to use
| conditional breakpoints, otherwise if you can only catch any
| type of exception, you'll be sitting there for half an hour
| just to get to the specific state that you're looking for.
|
| Edit: i'd say that all of the autocompletes and suggestions
| (e.g. "you can use a lambda here", or "you don't need all of
| this cruft for implementing a functional interface") can
| actually be beneficial to getting to know a language or a
| framework better.
| pjmlp wrote:
| I tend to agree with the sentiment, but when you have Red-
| Hat and Microsoft collaborating into bringing all possible
| IDE features that matters for Java BE development into
| VSCode, that really hurts into JetBrains pocket.
|
| They are turning VSCode into a first class experience when
| coding mainframe style across OpenShift, IBM Cloud and
| Azure.
| KronisLV wrote:
| That's a very fair point to make, but as a consumer,
| that's probably a good thing - having a healthy
| competition in the industry, it seems that even the likes
| of Eclipse are attempting to branch out somewhat:
| https://theia-ide.org/
|
| The next decade in tooling will hopefully be promising!
| wpietri wrote:
| > People moved from IntelliJ to VSC because it was faster,
| simpler and language-agnostic,
|
| Did many people move from IntelliJ to VSC? From what I've
| seen, VSC is mainly used by people who previously haven't
| used a full IDE.
|
| It's also not clear to me that they're "a jumping on a
| simple-editor train". Given that with one click you can turn
| on "fully functional IDE bringing smart completion,
| refactorings, navigation, debugging, and everything else that
| you're used to having in an IDE" I don't think it's actually
| simple. It's just a quick-to-open IDE where the user in in
| control of when to pay the extra startup cost for the fancier
| features.
| david422 wrote:
| Gonna draw a comparison here.
|
| People loooove dynamic langues, no-sql etc.
|
| But from all my experience, once you start getting into
| bigger projects, maintenance etc. they become a detriment.
|
| So they start with a simple IDE and avoid the IDE with the
| kitchen sink. Because ultimately they don't know what they
| are losing/going to lose.
| atraac wrote:
| > People moved from IntelliJ to VSC because it was faster,
| simpler and language-agnostic, instead JetBrains blamed users
| for not using advanced features like CPU profiling which most
| people don't use daily. They are jumping on simple-editor
| train now. Better late than never
|
| From my experience, most people who nowadays start
| programming, flock to vscode because it's free, used in most
| tutorials and then they simply do not understand why a
| certain paid IDE could be better, because they never tried
| it. Which is right with their statement. People keep
| parroting about greatness of vscode because it gets them
| through the day of making hello world apps and never have to
| actually debug more complex code or work with bigger
| codebases. Does it work in big projects for some(usually
| experienced) poeple? Sure. Is it the best way of working?
| Usually no(in my opinion at least).
| dmitriid wrote:
| > do not understand why a certain paid IDE could be better,
| because they never tried it
|
| Same goes for most vim/emacs vs. ide discussions :)
| RyEgswuCsn wrote:
| I tend to agree.
|
| It's a bit like the dynamic vs. static typing situation.
| New comers often prefer languages like Python at first for
| their simplicity, only to "rediscover" that static typing
| is so much more manageable later in their career.
| BackBlast wrote:
| My career has been the opposite. I grew up on C, C++,
| then Java. Now I'm on dynamically typed languages and
| appreciate their advantages and prefer them.
| RyEgswuCsn wrote:
| I also grew up on C then Java. Now I mostly work with
| Python but when things get serious I usually turn to JVM
| languages.
|
| The feeling knowing I can relentlessly refactor my code
| without breaking a thing and not having to worry about
| typos is just wonderful!
| smrtinsert wrote:
| Yeah context is required for these discussions. Anyone
| will love coding small digestible functions in python in
| a jupyter notebook. It's really fast. You might make a
| lot of mistakes (wrong import, wrong type, incorrect
| variable reference etc) but since the edit/refresh cycle
| is instant, it's not a big deal. Let's see how you feel
| about Python trying to application that has to be
| industrial strength and grown quickly for a business.
| ok_dad wrote:
| I use vscode because it's very flexible and does 99 percent
| of what a "full ide" does but at 10x the speed. I have a
| few thousand other developers who produce great extensions
| for me that do many things. I've also used just about every
| ide in existence over my career and I've never used a
| feature that vscode didn't have built in or in an
| extension.
|
| You're making the same mistake they are by assuming
| developers are just ignorant of what an ide is, and it's
| going to sink intellij eventually.
| minimaul wrote:
| I agree with this a lot - I went through a progression from
| simple -> full IDEs personally - writing a mix of PHP and
| JS for the web, along with C# for console apps, some
| python, and some terraform - I used to use a mix of a
| generic text editor with syntax highlighting and full MS
| Visual Studio.
|
| Then it was VS Code, because VS Code gave me basic code
| completion and debugging which beat the text editor, and
| was massively faster than full MS Visual Studio. But VS
| Code's debugging features are buggy at best, PHP is a
| community supported language only, the .NET support is very
| easy to get tremendously confused/broken, and Python
| support for code completion never seems to work for locally
| installed packages etc.
|
| Now I use the JetBrains suite of IDEs - PHPStorm, Rider,
| PyCharm do code completion, suggestions, etc on a scale
| that none of the VS Code community or MS plugins provide.
| PyCharm has really nice support for dealing with Pipenv.
| Rider has a NuGet integration. Rider debugging has _always_
| worked for me. An official JetBrains plugin provides the
| single best terraform authoring experience I 've used. For
| me it really is the best solution.
|
| Yes, the JetBrains IDEs are heavier than VS Code, and yes
| they cost money, but you're not cobbling together a
| solution from a disparate set of plugins and crossing your
| fingers. There's actual support.
|
| With web development I find there's a lot of resistance to
| paying for dev tools - people are used to free.
| Additionally practically everyone seems to suggest VS Code
| at entry level to new developers. But once your project is
| non-trivial, it really isn't _that_ good of an experience,
| in my opinion.
| agilob wrote:
| I moved to VSC because I need one editor, one keyboard
| shortcuts to learn for 4 programming languages I use daily.
| I use it on quite big projects, openapi-generator and
| keycloak and it's fine, I like it, but my teammates tell me
| I'm a weirdo for using it.
| shitlord wrote:
| I switched from a JetBrains IDE to VS Code for one reason:
| I don't want to build a C++ codebase on my laptop. It
| requires a lot of processing power, takes a long time,
| kills the battery, and makes the fan go off.
|
| I'm willing to use VS Code Remote and sacrifice some
| features to not have to deal with that. My employer doesn't
| really care if I provision a big EC2 instance for
| development. I'll take a look at Fleet a little later on.
| ta988 wrote:
| Jetbrains now has a remote agent, works decently.
| Liquid_Fire wrote:
| I've tried all of JetBrains' remote working solutions
| (there are confusingly many now, 3-4?) and they all seem
| unusable for my use case, where VSCode (or indeed ssh +
| vim) just works. And my use case is not particularly
| special, C++ with CMake and some wrapper scripts to pull
| in dependencies.
|
| The only solution that works OK is Projector, but I can
| achieve the exact same thing but less buggy with VNC.
| ricardobeat wrote:
| VSCode has debugging built in and can connect to various
| runtimes.
|
| Not that I ever use that - I prefer sticking with the
| language native tools, and I rarely require anything beyond
| inspecting runtime values and simple benchmarking.
|
| Maybe this comes from the perspective of Java, where you
| _need_ an IDE to do proper debugging, building /starting an
| application requires a gazillion command line arguments,
| and you have layers upon layers of abstraction to drill
| through? Those are pains worth taking away, but don't apply
| to all languages or platforms.
| kaba0 wrote:
| You mean like the 64000 packages required for a simple
| hello world with 34 vulnerabilities and ads, and what
| takes more time to "compile" for trivial AST-
| manipulations than a god-damn optimizing compiler do?
| nwatson wrote:
| Refactoring, "show me where this class, function,
| variable is used", "show me a class hierarchy", "analyze
| my code and tell me where I'm not using best practices
| and suggest the best fixes and apply my selected one",
| are places where a full-fledged IDE shines. An editor
| won't do those, or most of those. A 15-minute task turns
| into a 20-second blip.
| ricardobeat wrote:
| VSCode does all of the former, at least for the two main
| languages I work with, TypeScript and Go. Prettier,
| ESLint and golangci-lint handle the style checks.
|
| JetBrains says the problem is "users are unaware of what
| an IDE can do" but maybe it is the other way around?
| Aeolun wrote:
| What's nice that Jetbrains does in Typescript that VSCode
| doesn't is automated refactoring. I can change or move a
| function anywhere in my project and all references are
| automatically updated.
|
| VSCode does it to some extend, but the difference is
| night and day.
| gnufied wrote:
| Currently I am using Emacs and Goland as my main
| IDEs/editors and have tried vscode but the thing is -
| what vscode can support entirely depends on what LSP
| server can support. This can make or break vscode. For
| example - both vscode/emacs (via lsp-mode) throw
| errors/warnings in multi-module go projects. Even worse,
| if you are hacking your build chain the way some projects
| like Kubernetes do(via staging directory), lsp-server
| refuses to work entirely in `staging/` directory of the
| project.
|
| I also saw that switching branches can confuse lsp-
| server.
|
| All of these problems are basically non-existant in
| Goland(Intellij).So depending on complexity of a project,
| I would day it is worth using an IDE.
| smrtinsert wrote:
| That last paragraph is wrong but I'm too tired to explain
| why for the millionth time.
| Ygg2 wrote:
| Recently CLion got decent Rust debugging. While I love
| rust-analyser and its integration with VSCode, the
| debugger in CLion is worth its weight in gold (like a ton
| or so).
|
| Would I prefer a native IDE for Rust? Maybe one that
| doesn't require 4GiB of Ram to operate? Yes.
|
| But bar for IDEs today is very high.
| akmittal wrote:
| Vscode is more than suitable for big projects, Its not just
| for hello world projects. VSCode is best tool for
| TypeScript/JavaScript/Dart. For Java/C# it probably is not.
| square_usual wrote:
| You should really try out JetBrains' TS/JS features. It's
| great, as good as anything VSC can give you, and if
| you're used to their IDEs (say, for Ruby, which is
| nowhere near as good on VSC) you're better off using the
| JB IDE.
| akmittal wrote:
| I didn't say jetBrains IDEs are not good, I said VSC is
| good for most use cases
| bachmeier wrote:
| > clearly a lack of understanding of what an IDE gives you
|
| That might not be a point in their favor. Once VS Code came
| out, a lot of programmers that were simply following their
| earlier training and using an IDE, learned how much you can
| do in a text editor. I've seen lots of "Why would anyone
| write code with Notepad?" over the years. This was largely
| rooted in Java, where the only option was to use an IDE. VS
| Code dispelled the myth that real programming has to happen
| in an IDE.
| ksec wrote:
| I am wondering if it is still written in Java. It will be
| interesting to see how a light weight Java Editor compete
| against another light weight Web / DOM Editor.
|
| And if it is Java, would be there any Substrate VM / Graal
| tools going into it.
| ignoramous wrote:
| > _I can imagine if this becomes a succes they will update all
| their IDEs or use Fleet as the new platform._
|
| _Fleet_ may very well be the main focus for IntelliJ in the
| future. It is highly moduralized [0], which makes it seem like
| they 're going after github.dev, stackblitz.com, replit.com and
| not just VSCode.
|
| [0] https://www.jetbrains.com/help/fleet/1.0/architecture-
| overvi...
| ksec wrote:
| Supported Language: Java, Kotlin, Python, Go, JavaScript, Rust,
| TypeScript, JSON
|
| Coming Soon: PHP, C++, C#, HTML
|
| Right now 307 Comments I am surprised no one has mentioned it.
| Ruby isn't even on the Coming soon list.
| glun wrote:
| Whenever I try to use something other than IntelliJ (generally VS
| Code) I'm always struck by how awful the code completion and
| auto-imports are. I really hope we can get a lightweight editor
| with those two functions working properly.
|
| However, I don't see how you can do either of those features well
| without a lot of indexing of the codebase. And indexing is a
| major reason why IntelliJ so so clunky.
| eyelidlessness wrote:
| I came to VSCode from TextMate, so my expectations were
| minimal, but I can't think of anything more to wish for from
| its completion and auto-imports. I'm generally using it for
| TypeScript which is probably its strongest use case. But even
| untyped JavaScript is pretty good: local type inference is
| alright, JSDoc types nearly on par with TS, automatic type
| acquisition for dependencies is _better_ than manual
| installation in TS.
|
| That said, it's been years since I tried IntelliJ. Am I missing
| some significant productivity improvement, for TS/JS
| development?
| gregopet wrote:
| A colleague of mine and I tried to asses VS Code vs. Intellij
| IDEA for vanilla JS & Typescript + Vue. Him a heavy VS user,
| me more at home with Intellij. In both cases we concluded
| Intellij proved superior, though both were usable.
| Ciantic wrote:
| Given that VSCode is built in TypeScript, and it existed
| primarily for JS/TS in the beginning this is expected. You
| don't get whole lot of more from JetBrains/Fleet in that
| case.
|
| Usually though JetBrains' editor is used by other languages,
| which don't yet have as good open language servers, like
| Java/Kotlin/Scala/C#...
| major--neither wrote:
| the language servers do the indexing now. intelliJ does not use
| them?
| skocznymroczny wrote:
| With same languages? Whenever I stray away from C#/Java world,
| I am amazed how bad the IDE experience is for other languages,
| but that's because most other languages have features which
| don't play well with IDEs (dynamic typing, templates, macros,
| anything compile time).
| freedomben wrote:
| I agree (even though it pains me to). I've thought about it a
| lot and I think it's because in the Java world, unlike most
| other worlds, the IDE is basically mandatory. I've worked in
| a few different java shops and the project was built around
| the IDE and required it.
| glun wrote:
| IntelliJ has much superior code completion even for dynamic
| languages such as Python and Clojure. I seem to recall having
| tested Javascript too, but I could be misremembering there as
| its been a while since I didn't use use Typescript.
| glun wrote:
| VS Code is actually pretty good at Typescript though, so I
| could be wrong about JS.
| tomjen3 wrote:
| I don't think you are wrong. I used IntelliJ at my
| previous employeer because VS Code sucked for straight
| JS.
|
| I will have to admit that VS Code remote features are
| straight up amazing.
| [deleted]
| jen20 wrote:
| Auto import and code completion play nicely with IntelliJ for
| both Go and Rust IME.
| fivea wrote:
| Even though I wouldn't classify it as "awful", I do agree with
| the sentiment. Whenever I use Clion, I feel I need to have
| vscode also on the same project to mitigate the shortcomings of
| it's code completion and even search.
|
| Clion's support for CMake is particularly enfuriating, with
| it's propensity to actively replate a target's name with
| filenames, even if they do not match in caps, which makes
| absolutely no sense at all and feels it is doing it's best to
| get in the way and sabotage your productivity.
| BozeWolf wrote:
| Counter argument, I tried c/cpp/cmake development in vscode,
| but got so fed up with breaking plugins. Configuring...
| fixing new config options for plugins... Or spell
| checkersuggesting to rename functions i call... or duplicate
| shortcuts from plugins...
|
| That I bought clion and got stuff up and running for the
| biggest part in minutes. I am a looong time pycharm user
| though. Cmake integration is great for my projects. Embedded
| mostly.
|
| IDE's are very personal tools. Im an ide guy, always have
| been. Do use vscode occasionally though, it is great to test
| new prpgramming languages, or open big files pycharm chokes
| on.
| torginus wrote:
| I have a bit of an off-topic question for you: I'm developing
| a single app for Windows in 3 languages: C#, C++, and
| Typescript using Visual Studio and I get excellent
| autocomplete/integration support. However I'm looking towards
| porting it to Linux, and I'm looking at some other IDE. Is
| there something that can handle
| building/debugging/autocomplete for these 3 that's not VS?
| kaba0 wrote:
| Perhaps also intellij with the language specific plugins?
| Separately, all these languages work fine. What's the build
| tool?
| zenron wrote:
| Try moving to VSCode on Windows, see if you can re-create
| your workflow there using plugins.
|
| Then, if you are successful, port your workflow to VSCode
| running in Linux.
| nvarsj wrote:
| Have you tried a C/C++ lsp server like
| https://github.com/MaskRay/ccls? Works with vscode/whatever
| you want, and just targets your Makefile (using bear to
| generate the dependency graph).
| willangley wrote:
| I'm excited to see this and signed up for the preview. It's just
| in time for M1 Pro MacBooks. I spent hours stuck on the _very
| first_ thing I tried coding on my new laptop because of a missing
| linux-aarch64 binary wheel on PyPI and had to figure out what was
| happening and how to build it from source.
|
| If this is priced close to JetBrains' other products and works
| decently well I could see myself signing up for it. The
| subscription would pay for itself in one averted experience like
| this a year :P
| pjmlp wrote:
| Someone is getting too scared from VSCode and decided to counter-
| attack.
| agluszak wrote:
| Does it have support for LSP?
| IceWreck wrote:
| They said it does
| wluu wrote:
| Yes https://www.jetbrains.com/help/fleet/1.0/architecture-
| overvi...
| The_Colonel wrote:
| _Space Fleet_
|
| The goal is not to replace VSCode (hardly any money in there) or
| Intellij but to fill a gap in the Space offering. Space is IMHO
| JetBrain's main strategic initiative for the next 10 years (and
| very promising).
| azeirah wrote:
| What do you mean by space?
| dagmx wrote:
| https://www.jetbrains.com/space/
| projectileboy wrote:
| Reading this comment thread, it's weird to me how entitled
| software developers seem to be about free tools. Is it really
| that insane to pay $100 (or whatever) for something you use all
| day every day?
| baybal2 wrote:
| How it is different from all other JetBrain IDEs?
| ungawatkt wrote:
| If this can be 90% of the basic VSCode editor experience then I'm
| interested. Full props to VSCode's more advanced workflows[0],
| but I've mostly bought into jetbrains for that use case at this
| point. If I can fill the basic slot with a jetbrains product it
| fits well into my goal of a uniform tooling experience across
| everything. Fingers crossed for a good product that'll push both
| it and vscode to be better.
|
| [0]I use vscode as a basic text editor that can handle lots of
| files in a multi directory workspace because it's fast at it,
| plus markdown rendering and some basic autocomplete. I don't use
| the debugging features, navigation, or anything similar in it,
| but like I said, I give it full marks for being capable there,
| it's just that's outside my use case.
| comprev wrote:
| Although I only speak English I greatly appreciate the fact their
| blog is available in so many other languages.
|
| Are their IDEs interfaces available in multiple languages too?
| FpUser wrote:
| English is my second language and my knowledge of it is far
| from perfect.
|
| Still after decades of development my brain simply refuses to
| understand any IDE or anything development related for that
| matter in any language other than the English.
|
| And it's been that way even when I did not understand nearly
| any English.
| nottorp wrote:
| Sheesh. Please no.
|
| Note that i do speak several languages and my native language
| isnt English. Still, please dont complicate my programming with
| translations.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| I don't understand this approach. Obviously you'll have a
| choice. And those who struggle with English would love to
| have a choice as well.
| 5560675260 wrote:
| Instead of learning english those people will now struggle
| both with english and programming, it is really a
| disservice. And when you'll collaborate with people using
| poorly translated terminology you'll struggle too.
| dagmx wrote:
| This is such a self centered colionolist attitude.
|
| Not everyone is going to be collaborating with
| foreigners. Even if a programming language is based
| around an English view, many company APIs may be based on
| their own primary communication language. Or it may just
| help someone who's still great at communicating in
| English to work more efficiently, when English isn't
| their primary language.
|
| Choice is good. Don't force your English centric world
| view on everyone.
| Tajnymag wrote:
| IDE language isn't tied to the language used in your codebase
| mastazi wrote:
| Parent has a point, there are so many things that don't
| even make sense in other languages, for example in my
| native language we don't have a word that corresponds to
| "Refactor", any possible translation would be weird and
| hard to understand, that's why I've never used an IDE in a
| language other than English.
|
| It's got nothing to do with "the language used in your
| codebase", whatever you mean by that (programming language?
| natural language used in strings?)
| Tajnymag wrote:
| Yes, I agree that certain things are complicated to be
| translated correctly
|
| Yes, almost all programming languages use English
| keywords.
|
| Yes, for international collaboration, English is a must.
|
| However, many non-native English speakers who are
| complete programming beginners do tend to have trouble
| with the locale the editor is in. Imagine you want to
| change a certain setting but don't know the correct
| English word for it. Or all the warnings, errors and
| hints the editor throws at you. Everything is in a
| language you were not born with. Personally I know a
| handful of people who struggle with English itself, but
| that shouldn't be a requisite to use the editor alone.
|
| As for my "tied to the language": parent comment didn't
| specify how the IDE affected their programming workflow,
| so I went with a general statement.
| nottorp wrote:
| The thing is, if you want to stay up to date with
| programming you cant afford to wait for Information in
| your native language anyway. Unless youre a complete
| beginner.
|
| So whats the point in having the menus, debugger etc
| translated, except for extra confusion?
|
| Would you like the build config files translated too?
| nwatson wrote:
| I'm sure the Academie Francais has made up an authorized
| word like rererefateurellement.
| mastazi wrote:
| I'm in your same boat, English as a second language and I
| dislike having to use my native tongue for dev-related
| concepts, it just doesn't work.
| Tajnymag wrote:
| It seems they aren't.
| quiffledwerg wrote:
| I love Jetbrains products.
|
| I happily pay hard cash for what is my primary work tool .... a
| really capable IDE.
| nervousDev wrote:
| Does the remote development focus mean that it will also provide
| a better WSL integration than the rest of the Jetbrains line-up?
| I see no mentions of WSL even though it might be a strong selling
| point specially if this is going to compete with VS Code.
| chkhd wrote:
| I just hope the remote development features will actually work
| adequately in this.
|
| They tried to get that stuff working with existing IDEs multiple
| times [0][1][2][3], but they are all broken in their unique ways.
|
| Whenever I see them announce something new in the remote
| development space I always jump in right away and try it out,
| discover it is broken too, and then go back to using VS Code
| remote dev features.
|
| For local dev I still use JB stuff, but it is simply too broken
| and awkward for remote.
|
| [0] https://www.jetbrains.com/help/pycharm/configuring-remote-
| in...
|
| [1] https://lp.jetbrains.com/projector/
|
| [2] https://blog.jetbrains.com/blog/2021/11/29/introducing-
| remot...
|
| [3] https://www.jetbrains.com/code-with-me/
| bobviolier wrote:
| Out of curiosity, what doesn't work for you with Code With Me?
| The only thing I can think of is that the "client" also needs
| to have Code With Me installed, instead of a possible browser
| integration like VSCode has.
| 19h wrote:
| Code With Me is amazing except when it doesn't completely
| work it doesn't work at all.
|
| Command + click doesn't always work if there's a lot of
| latency, many times the ,,follow other developer" feature
| turns off randomly, often the search breaks or doesn't work
| at all, the video & audio inside the IDE causes lag and
| massive amounts of load (so much that many of our devs
| switched to discord).
|
| For what it's worth it works mostly great when the developers
| pairing together are in the same country, but it's pretty bad
| when i.e. a developer from Berlin, Germany pairs with one
| from Columbus, Ohio. So I guess it's a latency problem.
| mellosouls wrote:
| Agree. I paid for PyCharm on the basis that a) it all just
| worked in the community edition, and b) it offered remote
| development in professional (this was a main selling point over
| community).
|
| I quickly discovered that b) was false (or extremely oversold)
| compared to VSCode and switched back, couldn't get PyCharm
| working remotely and saw the loooong-standing issues on the bug
| tracker that indicated it wasn't a priority despite the
| marketing.
|
| I still admire the plug-in-and-go-ability of PyCharm, but no
| longer trust it to fork out money for features which are
| clearly not what they are implied to be.
|
| Perhaps the latter has changed; I'll await the reviews.
| kombine wrote:
| This is also the main reason I switched from PyCharm to VS Code
| at the start of the pandemic, which I think was really a really
| fortunate circumstance for the latter IDE. Even though PyCharm
| is a superior IDE, its remote development features were really
| broken, while VS Code nailed it.
| pqb wrote:
| I think all from posted by you remote dev envs fill other use-
| case and niche.
|
| - "Code with me" is a Zoom/Google Meet with a code sharing.
|
| - "Projector" provides Web view alongside of typical desktop-
| app IDE sharing. If you need example, there was a nice
| submission week ago that touches that topic [0].
|
| - "Editing by SSH" - way another niche. Connect via SSH to
| remote machine, edit and synchronize your changes over the SSH.
| Nothing new, I guess Python and PHP devs love to use it. I have
| been recently using it, while I was tinkering with Raspberry
| Pi.
|
| - "Remote development" or some kind "developer-machine-as-a-
| service" idea (JetBrains Space / Gateway), which is close to
| Projector, with a difference the machines are rented or managed
| by the company (burst usage). Ironically, it is nice idea even
| for small companies (<150), where employees were given low-spec
| PCs or some cheapest M1 laptops. All problems with CPU
| compatibility or other limitations to resources are solved by
| using a beefy remote machine.
|
| For a person who used various way of remote coding in my life.
| I think all of those are complementary and I don't see any
| burden there. I hope they will keep and improve them over next
| years.
|
| [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29304667
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| Code with me works okay. Far better than "Zoom share desktop".
| tgv wrote:
| How does it compete against their other products? This seems to
| contain more than PyCharm and Gogland.
| renewiltord wrote:
| I am thrilled to hear about the "develop locally, build remotely"
| feature.
| 999900000999 wrote:
| My issue has never been the actual cost of JBs products, but
| rather I have to go and justify myself to a manager to get a
| license. That's something which of course is not a factor when
| you're using open source stuff, but maybe I'll still buy this for
| my personal use. Vs code was supposed to be a lighter weight
| visual studio, but at this point it's hell bent on becoming just
| as bloated.
| [deleted]
| nlitened wrote:
| I suppose something like: "Hey pal, you pay me 400k a year. How
| about we spend 200 bucks a year to make me 10% more
| productive?"
| 999900000999 wrote:
| It depends on your company.
|
| Many places will spend 500$ to decline a 200$ expense.
| Diesel555 wrote:
| I keep seeing discussions on a full IDE vs an editor like VSCode.
| People are claiming VSCode is poor with autocompletions and other
| features only a full IDE can accomplish.
|
| I use Pycharm, Webstorm, and VSCode and I don't see the huge
| difference. Is it more apparent on certain languages?
|
| They stated in their blog
| https://blog.jetbrains.com/idea/2020/09/a-picture-of-java-in...
|
| > In the web space it is understandable to use an editor as web
| developers are typically working with dynamic languages, and
| often use other tools like browser plugins to give them what they
| need. But in Java, especially professional Java, you really get a
| lot out of a good tool that has integration with the application
| server and you can really use the analysis and refactoring and
| everything.
|
| > VS Code is growing which is concerning, not from a competitive
| point of view but actually from the point of view that there is
| clearly a lack of understanding of what an IDE gives you
|
| So my main question is what do full blown IDEs do that an editor
| like VSCode cannot?
| ta988 wrote:
| Yes it is much more apparent with typed languages (and starts
| to show with typed Python as well).
| lukewrites wrote:
| For my job I spend a lot of time working on a python package
| that uses threads. I've found that pycharm's debugging tools
| are much better than vscode's when it comes to threads. Also,
| auto imports are possible while I don't think I'm able to do
| that in VScode.
|
| If someone can tell me how to set up VSCode to do this better,
| I would love to know. However I also need to be able to support
| other engineers who typically don't work on the package but
| might need to drop into the code. It is much easier to tell
| them to download the community edition of pycharm and start
| working than it is to walk them through setting up another
| editor/ide.
|
| I don't particularly like pycharm, and don't use it when I
| don't have to, but in this case it's the right tool for the
| job. (So far.)
| ff23ff23333 wrote:
| All java applications are horrible.
|
| DataGrip IDE from Jetbrains requires 966 MB memory just to work
| with a single (!!!) query file that has few lines of SQL.
|
| I also opened a huge project in Visual Studio 2022 that contains
| thousands of files and it only needs 735 MB memory (however
| previous versions were much slower and less memory efficient).
|
| So, avoid Java at any cost. Even JavaScript-based VSCode is much
| faster that any Java application.
| talhof8 wrote:
| Oddly similar to vscode. Always loved Jetbrains' IDEs better.
|
| Hopefully they won't be stupid enough to deprecate them. I feel a
| much better effort would be to heavily work on optimizing
| performance for their existing suite of IDEs (or perhaps re-write
| them in Rust or something more suitable than Java/Kotlin).
| withinboredom wrote:
| I struggle to see this as "lightweight," unless they mean "just
| on my machine." The maintenance burden to the organization looks
| quite ridiculous.
| coolgoose wrote:
| Vscode online pressure?
| himanshub16 wrote:
| definitely!
| xyproto wrote:
| Fleet is not open source, offers little over VS Code and is not
| as fully featured as the full JetBrains IDE's.
|
| Who are intended to use this?
| lenkite wrote:
| As long as it isn't Electron-based, I don't care.
| IceWreck wrote:
| The non open source part is a bummer but its not Electron
| based. So its gotta be faster than VSCode.
| fxtentacle wrote:
| People like me who like all the other JetBrains IDEs and have a
| toolbox subscription anyway.
| samjmck wrote:
| The program isn't even publicly available yet. How can you
| conclude that it provides little over VS Code?
|
| And why does it matter that it's not open source?
| 5e92cb50239222b wrote:
| > And why does it matter that it's not open source?
|
| I honestly find this question really weird. Do we really have
| to explain such basic things nowadays? It may not be
| important to you, it is extremely important to me, and
| (apparently) xyproto.
| fxtentacle wrote:
| And that's why you're not using Windows, Mac, Android, or
| iOS, but only Linux, correct?
|
| Mostly people want open source but they'll happily abandon
| it for convenience. That's how Gmail won over Dovecot.
| esrh wrote:
| That's exactly why, free/open source enthusiasts are just
| the minority type to prefer freedom or privacy over
| convenience.
| mikkelam wrote:
| As a long-term pycharm user that recently migrated to VSCode im
| quite happy to see jetbrains building this. My main gripe with
| their stack is that I work across many languages and workflows
| and I like to use the exact same keymaps configurations and so on
| and pycharm just didn't give you that.
|
| I really love the idea of the virtualized file system allowing
| you to develop anywhere. I hope this works well. Comparably,
| VSCode's remote containers really do a poor job of allowing one
| to develop over ssh connections, which I do constantly.
| hanikesn wrote:
| Why not use intellij ultimate? You can easily add all the
| language plugins (mod clion based ones).
| mikkelam wrote:
| Why? Because I'm a second class citizen in a java IDE. No
| thanks. The marketing is also quite clear on the target
| audience https://www.jetbrains.com/idea/features/
| schwartzworld wrote:
| Be that as it may, I've used Webstorm and Intellij Ultimate
| with JS plugins and the experience was pretty much
| identical.
| square_usual wrote:
| Not really, tbh. IntelliJ Ultimate + the Ruby extension is
| RubyMine with a different name. Likewise with Go and JS,
| and I'm sure it's the same for php etc. but I can't speak
| for those. I've used this setup when I was testing out a
| bunch of languages for fun.
| ta988 wrote:
| It is my experience as well. I only use CLion for Rust
| and C. All the rest (Python, TS, Kotlin, Ruby, Scala) I
| do in IntelliJ.
| wilsonnb3 wrote:
| It is not true for C#, you need Rider for that. That is
| the only exception I am aware of, though.
| squeaky-clean wrote:
| The plugins are not updated as quickly as the language-
| specific IDEs, sometimes they are several months behind
| on newer features. Not really a big deal if you wait a
| few months to update your Python version, but it's
| annoying if you update early.
|
| I used to use only IntelliJ until a few years ago a
| Python feature I wanted was in PyCharm but not IntelliJ.
| I think it was related to the typing module? I can't
| quite remember. I've just stuck with PyCharm for python
| ever since.
|
| edit: But also, I've never had any issue copying my key
| configs between PyCharm, Rider, IntelliJ.
| mgkimsal wrote:
| I don't think the relative ease of writing extensions for VSCode
| can be overlooked. There's a relative explosion of extensions
| addressing a lot of niche needs for various markets. My
| experience is that many of them aren't terribly good, or were
| good but are no longer maintained, etc. If/when JB makes it more
| straightforward to write extensions, there may always be a
| perception different. VSCode extensions in TypeScript will be
| easier for many curious folks to address vs Java/Scala-based
| plugins for JetBrains.
| ch_123 wrote:
| I would love to see a version of this which can run on an iPad.
| Combined with the Magic Keyboard and it would make a nice code
| environment in conjunction with a server, or a cloud instance.
| technobabbler wrote:
| I marvel at those of you who can code on an iPad. How are your
| eyes so good? I have a 32" monitor running at like 120% zoom
| and can still barely read the code. Curse my ancient eyes!
| DeathArrow wrote:
| I would love the future IDEs to be fast with low footprint
| instead of slow monsters running Javascript in browser behind.
| amq wrote:
| Is VS Code slow? I mean, Notepad is faster, but considering
| that VS Code is JS-based, it's actually fast and responsive.
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| Yes! As someone who uses IntelliJ for writing primarily Perl, I
| welcome this.
| ehnto wrote:
| I can see this being huge in a team with tight tool parity. I
| probably wouldn't use it as a freelancer, but remembering back to
| when I worked at an agency where we all had the same software and
| a pool of environments for all the different clients, this would
| have been the perfect tool.
|
| I know we all want to be special snowflakes, but my advice for a
| fast moving coherent team tooling includes having everyone on the
| same environment and using the same tools, so that you can share
| knowledge and master your tools as an individual and a team.
| Troubleshooting becomes much more reasonable, and we can all
| share the useful shortcuts we slowly build up over time.
|
| That's one of the downsides of tech moving so fast, no one
| masters anything, as a generalized industry we're eternally
| noobs.
| torginus wrote:
| I _really_ hope it 's not Electron-based.
| ac130kz wrote:
| I really hope it's not Java mess either: no Wayland support,
| lags
| pb82 wrote:
| Really? I'm using their IDEs on Fedora 35 with Wayland. Seems
| to be working fine.
| ac130kz wrote:
| Now disable XWayland and try again
| ff23ff23333 wrote:
| Yes, I also hate Java so much!
| mariusmg wrote:
| No chance of that, everything they do is in Java...
| Hamuko wrote:
| It's actually Kotlin aka "I Can't Believe It's Not Java!"
| nicoburns wrote:
| Makes sense given that Kotlin is their own in-house
| language.
| xyproto wrote:
| To be fair, Wayland is still new (compared to how long Java
| has existed), and Java/OpenJDK may improve support in the
| future.
| ac130kz wrote:
| Wayland is almost 15 years old by now, and it's on track to
| be enabled by default on most distros as well.
| jatone wrote:
| there also isn't a reason for them to use it xwayland
| works fine for the usecase.
|
| I hope they support wayland natively but its just not
| necessary atm.
| mikkelam wrote:
| The UI is probably written with compose
| https://github.com/JetBrains/compose-jb
| asattarmd wrote:
| I believe so as well. Compose is very similar to Electron.
| Jetbrains Toolbox (which uses compose) uses 500mb memory
| which is on par with what Electron would use for such a
| simple app.
| torginus wrote:
| I really hope that's not the case - at least the browser
| has an excuse of being a scripting platform, a 3D and 2D
| rendering and layout engine, a video streaming platform, a
| database, a server and who knows what rolled into one -
| that Toolbox thing hopefully has less than 5% of that in
| its codebase.
| iruoy wrote:
| I just checked. On my Windows laptop from work it uses 18.5
| MB in the background. It uses 220-240 MB in the foreground
| though. Which seems totally unnecessary.
|
| I already ditched the Toolbox app on macOS, because it
| marks the binaries as Intel only (while they're universal).
| The IDE's built in updater seems fine if you're only using
| the stable versions. So I think I'm just going to remove
| the Toolbox app from all my machines.
| kaba0 wrote:
| Why would it be similar? It doesn't need all the
| unnecessary abstraction of a browser/DOM. Also, initial
| memory usage doesn't mean it scales the same way from then
| on.
| wiseowise wrote:
| Except Electron is 8 years old, and Compose desktop has
| started active development half a year ago.
| bscphil wrote:
| Same. Similarly, since VS Code is the obvious comparison here,
| I really hope they're planning to open source the basic version
| of this once it's out of beta. I could really see myself using
| this if it manages to be both open source and _actually_
| lightweight and not a 300+ MB blob.
| zRedShift wrote:
| Official response:
| https://blog.jetbrains.com/blog/2021/11/29/welcome-to-fleet/...
|
| _It's written in Kotlin mainly, a little bit of Rust for
| native parts, Skiko (Skija + AWT)_
|
| _The UI framework is similar to Compose, but we started when
| Jetpack Compose wasn't there :)_
| ksec wrote:
| Damn I was hoping to see some GraalVM AOT Java Magic.
|
| I wonder if they have plan to use Kotlin Native. But
| dogfooding is always good.
| dunefox wrote:
| I think that would have been a great case for Kotlin
| native.
| he_is_legend wrote:
| Unlikely. The rest of their programmers toolset are mostly java
| based.
| f311a wrote:
| Google translate from a dev vacancy:
|
| You will be surprised, but we decided to create a new IDE
| from scratch and put together a bold team with a proven
| success track in creating tools inside JB. And right now we
| have a prototype and a bunch of bicycles.
|
| Our program consists of several parts that communicate with
| each other over the network.
|
| The first part is an editor that is written in a new cross-
| platform UI framework. When we made this framework, we were
| inspired by React.js and Swift UI.
|
| The second part is a small program written in Rust that tells
| about the arrangement of files on disk and starts processes.
| File watcher, process monitor and HTTP client in one binary.
|
| The third part is a server that analyzes the source code of
| the project. It can be IntelliJ, ReSharper, or LSP server.
|
| This architecture adds flexibility: if you run all the parts
| on one computer, you get a classic IDE. And if on different
| machines, it will be convenient to work in the cloud or in a
| container.
| ac130kz wrote:
| Now that's interesting, let's hope it's not immediate mode
| based and is closer to SolidJS (without Virtual DOM) than
| modern React, which clearly has no long-term future.
| ushakov wrote:
| they didn't say it's a JS framework though
| drpotato wrote:
| > modern React, which clearly has no long-term future
|
| Curious, why do you think that?
| arnvald wrote:
| Apparently it's not:
| https://twitter.com/himanshub16/status/1465238053979447296
|
| In the thread someone from JB mentions it's mostly JVM + some
| Rust
| robm50 wrote:
| (the tweet:
| https://twitter.com/hhariri/status/1465239810050830338?s=20)
| voidfunc wrote:
| Really weird name for an editor...
|
| I love IntelliJ and have paid for it for years now so I will
| probably check this out. VSCode has always felt too different.
| eklavya wrote:
| With compose for desktop announced, I was wondering when a new
| interface would be unveiled. Looks like they are using the
| migration to the new stack to experiment with a lightweight
| alternative to vscode. I wonder if it also uses kotlin native and
| moves away from JVM, doesn't seem likely since they say they are
| sharing code processing backend with IntelliJ.
| donatzsky wrote:
| It uses a client-server architecture, with with code-completion
| and other IDE features provided by a server separate from the
| editor client. I suppose that means you might need the JVM for
| the IDE back-end, but there's no reason why the editor can't be
| native.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29378010
| eklavya wrote:
| Thanks, sounds exciting. This definitely propels IntelliJ
| into the future. Beat of luck to them:)
| kaba0 wrote:
| I don't think kotlin native would beat the JVM in performance
| though, only at memory usage. Not even Graal AOT beats it for
| long-running tasks and I imagine it has a bigger mindshare
| behind it.
| ctvo wrote:
| > For years folks have been asking us, "JetBrains, when will you
| create a lightweight editor?"
|
| So we gave you anything but a lightweight editor. Lightweight
| editor implies speed, focused purpose, simplicity. What we get
| instead is remote collaboration, cloud functionality, and a
| distributed architecture.
|
| Does this thing support language server protocols for the listed
| language or will it continue to use Jetbrain's implementations?
| siproprio wrote:
| omg I'm in love with jetbrains now
| abeppu wrote:
| Side question: One thing they highlight is that this supports
| live collaboration, including simultaneously working on the same
| files. Can anyone describe a productive way of working where
| that's helpful and not confusing? When would you choose to work
| that way rather than e.g. pair programming with a single IDE or
| splitting up work in different branches?
|
| Shared editing of a document seems mostly fine but occasionally
| confusing, but code has to be internally consistent, and it seems
| like two parties trying jointly complete a feature on the same
| copy of a repo might be slower than sequencing if A's
| intermediate changes can prevent B from building/testing what
| they just wrote, etc.
| dagmx wrote:
| I think your example of pair programming is where it's useful
| (and what they highlight in their current integration in their
| existing products)
|
| The idea being (no pun intended) that you can do remote pair
| programming
| abeppu wrote:
| I guess, my assumption is that for pair programming only one
| person ought to be actually writing code at a time, you
| should be looking at the same files at the same time, and you
| likely want to have some live voice and/or video channel open
| to discuss what you're doing, etc. So, I kinda think that as
| janky as it feels, screen share of a normal IDE over zoom
| ends up being a less disjointed experience than zoom +
| "collaborative" IDE where you might each be looking at
| different files or different parts of files.
| dagmx wrote:
| I think anyone should be able to take over as needed.
| Having done pair programming with coworkers over zoom, it's
| painful when I have to describe where I want them to click,
| and you have to resort to saying line numbers or describing
| constructs.
|
| In person you can gesture. That's the hole that
| collaborative editing can fill.
| chakkepolja wrote:
| One use case is, pair programming for remote work.
| MikusR wrote:
| "We're asked, over and over again, by the guidelines and by
| moderator comments, not to editorialize titles like this."
| tptacek
| bennyp101 wrote:
| I'm not sure what the use case is, for small tasks I have Sublime
| Text, for full on work, I have JetBrains. This /looks/ like a
| strange place between ST and VSCode
| creshal wrote:
| Same.
|
| > _For years folks have been asking us, "JetBrains, when will
| you create a lightweight editor?"_
|
| I sure never did. If anything, I want their IDEs to be _more_
| involved and sophisticated.
|
| Otherwise I'm likely going to cancel our company subscriptions
| next year, VSCode is starting to overtake e.g. PyCharm in terms
| of developer comfort.
|
| So I really hope this is just a tech demonstrator to renew the
| architecture of their proper IDEs and they'll be picking up
| momentum on the latter as well.
| Deukhoofd wrote:
| > I sure never did. If anything, I want their IDEs to be more
| involved and sophisticated.
|
| Personally I want the language functionality to be involved
| and sophisticated, and the IDE itself to be as lightweight
| and simple as possible. Jetbrains IDEs come with a decent
| performance penalty from the IDE itself, and I think
| eliminating that would be a great benefit.
| spoils19 wrote:
| I've worked in 4 different software shops over the last 15
| years. My general observation is the developers who rely on
| heavily automated/magic tooling are significantly outclassed
| by those who use the terminal + a basic text editor.
|
| Terminal + Vim or Emacs/VSCode (depending on configuration)
| is not only all you need, it also produces developers who
| understand the systems they work with.
|
| I know a lot of people will disagree but my advice to more
| junior guys is always get rid of the toys and learn the
| tools.
| creshal wrote:
| I learned programming with paper, pen, match boxes to
| represent unary turing machines, and printed out language
| manuals, I'm afraid you can't out-hipster me with just
| emacs.
|
| And you completely miss the point: I'm fully aware that
| they exist, and that's the problem. Lightweight yet modular
| editors are such a crowded market that I don't see a
| realistic way for JetBrains to successfully compete in it.
| They don't have the same community momentum that
| emacs/(neo)vim have, nor do they have the resources of
| Microsoft. People who _like_ IDEs are the only target
| demographic they have, it would be foolish to neglect those
| to muscle into a market crowded with very successful free
| products.
| kaba0 wrote:
| But they would be stupid to start from scratch. They
| intend to reuse all their superior intellisense, code
| analysis programs and make it available through a unified
| API for both their current tools and this newly built
| one.
|
| If anything, they just want to build up a new frontend
| and the first look on that will be an "easy" one with a
| vanilla code editor.
| philote wrote:
| I have to agree with you. At least in my experience this
| seems true (with a few exceptions). I feel that devs that
| rely on auto-complete and such of an IDE are never really
| forced to know the libraries and code they're using. To me
| it feels like training wheels they never take off, and
| therefore can never move at full speed. But maybe it's just
| that due to the popularity of these IDEs, many newer devs
| are using them while older, more experienced devs are still
| using what they're used to.
|
| Quick edit: I work with some junior devs who all use IDEs.
| It pains me when I ask them where some code is and they
| only give me the filename and not the full path. I guess
| this is because that is what is most prominent in the IDE.
| ljm wrote:
| I do most of my stuff inside Emacs, but I wouldn't say that
| makes me a superior engineer to someone who uses a suite of
| JetBrains IDEs. In fact, for every benefit I gain from
| working in emacs and a terminal, there are plenty of trade-
| offs in terms of the amount of convenience I lose.
|
| I _could_ recreate much of this with my emacs config, but
| that 's an investment of my own time that isn't being spent
| on the actual project I want to work on. So one day I'll
| get around to it when I feel like it's worth moving that
| work into my emacs environment. But until then, I'm quite
| happy to fire up GoLand or IntelliJ and get a complete end-
| to-end integration between the language and the editor,
| without needing to configure _anything_.
|
| I'm not sure the developer who uses an IDE is worse off
| than someone who can wrangle a terminal and minimal editor.
| If anything, it's just one choice of cognitive burden over
| another. Nothing better or worse.
| Zababa wrote:
| This is a false dichotomy. You say "developers who rely on
| heavily automated/magic tooling" and "those who use the
| terminal + a basic text editor.". What of those that use
| heavily automated tooling but understand it? Of course
| people that understand stuff are better than people that
| don't, but this isn't directly correlated to terminal and
| IDE.
|
| > I know a lot of people will disagree but my advice to
| more junior guys is always get rid of the toys and learn
| the tools.
|
| You could make the same argument for writing assembly by
| hand, which will surely improve your skills. But that
| doesn't mean that a compiler is a toy. Those that learn and
| know the tools know their value. Senior developers at my
| work have a deep knowledge of lots of tools, because these
| tools can be very useful and save you a lot of time. They
| also build tools for others, to encode their knowledge and
| make everyone save some time.
| burmanm wrote:
| And I've seen developers who use Vim/Emacs/VSCode spend
| more time doing the same thing the other guy using an IDE
| would have done earlier and continued with important stuff.
|
| Although, if we go by your logic, wouldn't doing everything
| without an editor be even better? Because the indication
| and advice you're giving is that people using right tools
| that help their life are suddenly worse at doing their job.
|
| Which is just bullshit.
| nwatson wrote:
| Jetbrains IDEs will step into framework/library code/stack-
| frames/variables that you didn't write yourself and let you
| trace the full context of your code ... that's insight and
| knowledge no straight-editor will give you.
| Osiris wrote:
| This is not my experience at all. If anything, junior or
| mid developers that use IDEs rarely even use all the
| "advanced" features like inline debugging and source
| control features. The more senior developers maximize the
| value they get from tooling.
| deadcore wrote:
| Bit of a sweeping, overgeneralisation don't you think?
| Don't see how the quality of the developer correlates to
| their choice of environment.
| faizshah wrote:
| This is the kind of stuff that sounds believable when you
| start programming. I can tell you as someone that read HN
| since high school and invested time in buyinh a t480,
| trying out distros, and learning emacs and vim I can say
| its just another hobby.
|
| You can spend days making the best dotfiles and learning
| every CLI tool that doesn't mean you understand the systems
| you work on any better than anyone else it just means you
| have programming related hobbies outside of work which is a
| much better explanation for the correlation that you're
| observing. I don't know why we are inferring causation
| there.
|
| Your choice of tools is not that important, but learning
| the features of those tools is important.
|
| Also on giving up magic tools, as a FANG engineer you
| interact with many magic tools every day which you scarcely
| understand. It would be better if you did understand those
| tools as tenured FANG engineers do but as a software
| engineer at a big company picking your battles is the most
| important skill you can learn.
| kaba0 wrote:
| Knowing what gets run is orthogonal to using an IDE. Like,
| you are free to not click on that green run button and use
| the in-built terminal console at the bottom, but even so --
| will vim/emacs whatever suggest me new language features
| that may be superior to what I know? Will it catch trivial
| to see problems even before I compile my program?
|
| Also, autocompletion, in-built documentation can be a great
| tool to learn as well (I read much more documentation due
| to a quick hotkey showing me it, than I would manually
| hunting it down). And I know that these tools can be
| customized to do all these, my experience is that with so
| many tools they tend to be buggy and slow, and still only
| support a handful of features that a full-blown IDE does.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| For sure. I like IntelliJ, all I want is for it to be
| snappier; it gets pretty laggy with bigger files (like, more
| than one screen), it seems to have to do a lot of work that
| interrupts the main UI thread when it comes to redoing syntax
| highlighting and error checking.
|
| I mean, the main reason why I'm not using vs code for most of
| my work is because it's cmd+click to go to definition isn't
| as good, auto/hotfixes aren't as good, and refactoring
| support is pretty much nonexistent.
| kaba0 wrote:
| I don't know why Jetbrains doesn't already switch to a
| newer jdk. I found this tutorial (only the vm options part)
| to make intellij really snappy:
| https://iam.georgecox.com/2021/11/24/making-jetbrains-
| ides-r...
|
| It basically changes the jdk to version 16 (I used one from
| the openjdk website, not azul) where the new low-latency
| ZGC garbage collector is available and increases the
| default heapsize. Now I have a quite large project open
| with 1.5GB memory used, and it is really smooth all around
| with no stutters.
| iCarrot wrote:
| Looks like it places itself a little above VSCode, thanks to
| its Intellij code engine. Also remote coding means you could
| have a much beefier machine elsewhere and code on a notebook on
| the go, for example.
| TheMode wrote:
| Isn't it already possible using Intellij? Would have to see
| just how much "lightweight" it is to justify the concept
| The_Colonel wrote:
| It's a Sublime/VS Code replacement for people who use heavy
| JetBrains IDE with a huge benefit of UI/shortcut consistency
| and sort of fluent transition between both ends.
| cryptonector wrote:
| Got vim keybindings?
| KronisLV wrote:
| Huh, just the other day i was talking about how JetBrains
| products succeed in being some of the best IDEs around, but fail
| at the use case of just wanting to edit text files, where
| Notepad++, Visual Studio Code, Emacs, Sublime and vim could all
| be preferable to it:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29362960
|
| And then JetBrains come out with this... That's certainly
| pleasant to see!
| jatone wrote:
| thats funny I've always found jetbrains IDE to be error ridden
| annoyances where I end up spending more time dealing with
| problems the IDE has caused than developing software.
| KronisLV wrote:
| > I've always found jetbrains IDE to be error ridden
| annoyances where I end up spending more time dealing with
| problems the IDE has caused than developing software.
|
| My personal experience has been pretty much the opposite of
| this, as someone that uses Java almost every day and other
| languages occasionally (.NET, Python, PHP, Ruby, JS/TS, SQL,
| a little bit of Go).
|
| If i had to rank all of the IDEs that i've used from the most
| productive/stable to the least, it'd go about like this:
| - IntelliJ IDEA: the best way to write Java, and the best of
| JetBrains' products, period - most other JetBrains
| IDEs: Rider (a bit slow, but a lot of good features), PyCharm
| (slow to start, but nice to use), PhpStorm (no complaints,
| it's just that Laravel refactoring is way behind what Java
| gives you), RubyMine (one of the better options for Rails,
| despite its dynamic nature, autocomplete just works),
| WebStorm (a pretty good way to write JS/TS, even with some
| outdated and obscure codebases, like ES5 with AngularJS and
| no webpack), DataGrip (a bit niche since other IDEs cover a
| lot of the other functionality, but also present in the
| ecosystem), Goland (just recently started using, similarly
| usable); all of those are definitely worth the Ultimate
| subscription of their products IMO - Visual Studio: a
| pretty good IDE that has a similarly slow startup to Rider
| but feels good afterwards, especially for developing against
| Windows and doing .NET, perhaps better than Rider in some
| regards, though i hate the VS Installer with a passion, still
| haven't removed all of the crap it installed, years later,
| and the checkboxes for the features you may/may not want are
| confusing and it's a massive waste of space (though i guess
| the Python etc. integrations are nice for some + Azure
| stuff); also has the most tutorials for it out there -
| NetBeans: my darling a few years ago, completely free,
| reasonably capable and has some other tooling based on it
| (e.g. jMonkeyEngine SDK), if it had better framework
| integration and wasn't so dead, i'd gladly keep using it,
| since the keybindings are perhaps some of the most sane i've
| ever seen; also supports PHP and C/C++, but those are a bit
| weaker here; also really slows down with large projects
| - Eclipse: i hate Eclipse, some people swear by its
| workflows, but i've used plenty of horrible software that
| decided to use it as a platform and did so poorly (4EM tools,
| model driven development tools for generating source code,
| some random remote'ish development platforms) though it's
| also really poor on its own, as a regular Java IDE;
| unhelpful, inconsistent and slow - Android Studio:
| perhaps one of the few tools that are worse than Eclipse
| (aside from obscure SWI-Prolog IDEs and some ASM IDEs), i
| don't know what went so wrong here, but it's slow, chugs
| memory, makes the CPU hit 100% usage with 4 cores and just
| generally feels like a bad solution, i'm not sure where
| JetBrains went wrong, but since last trying it about 3-4
| years ago, i haven't picked it back up since
|
| I'd probably put some other IDEs, like QtCreator near Visual
| Studio, but i don't have enough experience with it or C/C++
| development myself to say for sure. Apart from that, VS Code
| would be near the top as far as snappiness goes and near the
| bottom as far as features go (or in the middle with enough
| plugins, provided that nothing breaks).
|
| That's about it, each IDE has its advantages and
| disadvantages.
|
| For example, even IntelliJ might need you to dig through the
| VM and memory options when you want to open projects that
| approach 1M SLoC, since the defaults might not be good
| enough.
|
| Oh, and in regards to DB tools, MySQL Workbench would have
| the #1 spot (since the modelling and forward/backward
| engineering and schema sync functionality is to die for, when
| planning things), DataGrip the #2, pgAdmin the 3# (the UI
| just feels non-native and bad, cumbersome to use,
| unresponsive) and SQL Developer would be near the bottom,
| after whatever else software i'd decide to list (horrible
| whenever you try to do anything apart from just writing and
| executing SQL, e.g. the modelling bits have failed to save
| and later re-open files pretty consistently).
| jatone wrote:
| see this might be the difference I don't distinguish
| between intellij and its various spin offs. Most of my
| interactions with its ecosystem have been through Android
| Studio.
|
| and it was so horrible I won't touch the others for any
| length of time. I also havent developed in java for over a
| decade until recently (for work, only touch java if you pay
| me).
| wpietri wrote:
| I think that's not the typical experience. I've certainly
| gotten occasional errors, but for me it's been a solid and
| reliable set of tools over the years. I started using it for
| Java, and have since used their Ruby, Python, and webdev
| versions happily for many thousands of hours.
| jatone wrote:
| it was primarily android and gradle issues honestly within
| its jetbrains IDE.
|
| jetbrains itself has performance issues, and you need to
| muck around too much to get them working properly.
|
| the JVM also causes issues resulting it having to tune the
| environment params to get decent performance. JB makes tons
| of assumptions and attempts to be helpful in ways that just
| are not; precompiling automatically, running massive
| indexing jobs causing the machine to bog down, assuming it
| has the right to modify your environment.
|
| these are all things I just do not want to think about when
| in essence I'm navigating directories and editing files
| with fancy hover tooltips.
|
| the standalone versions are okay usually depends on the
| language. I just want an editor with code linting
| regardless of the language.
|
| vscode in that respect has been a god send. install
| language server and you're done. performance is generally
| good and the background tasks seem thus far havent
| completely bogged down my machine.
| wpietri wrote:
| Yeah, if you just want a text editor and not an IDE, you
| probably shouldn't be using an IDE. Those things that are
| "just not" helpful to you are very helpful to others.
|
| Personally, I very much want an actual IDE for a lot of
| my work. So I'm happy to buy a fast machine with plenty
| of RAM and then give the IDE a good chunk of it. But I'm
| glad they're making Fleet for folks with other
| preferences, and I'm sure I'll be using it myself when I
| just need to open one or two files and make quick edits.
| jatone wrote:
| no I want my IDE to be functional without destroying my
| system performance or fucking up my codebase. jet brains
| is a massive offender here. it doesn't need to be. I have
| a giant machine ~128GB of RAM and 24 cores. the fact I
| have to tune my IDE is insane.
|
| the not helpful issues with jetbrains are when it
| crashes, slows down my system, prevents me from modifying
| files because reasons, modifies my build configurations
| in unsafe ways because it thinks it knows best,
| interferes with CLI run commands because it doesn't
| safely check that it can modify files owned by other
| applications.
|
| I'll grant you these are generally issues with the
| individual plugins within jetbrains. why deal with all
| that when I don't have to? Why deal with the performance
| issues the JVM has when I don't have to?
|
| vscode I get autocomplete, debuggers, decent linting,
| decent performance. that's an IDE in a nutshell. not a
| text editor.
|
| I'm happy you enjoy JB, great. it doesn't change any of
| the above and havent seen any indicators that the above
| has changed or will change in the future for it. hence I
| don't use it.
|
| fleet may be promising in this regard. but don't feel the
| need to jump ship when I already have remote code editing
| in vscode. which is the only real first class feature
| fleet has to distinguish itself from other IDEs.
| kaba0 wrote:
| I think the basic intellij config is set at max 2 gigs of
| RAM, so it doesn't really matter how many you have unless
| you change that.
|
| I really don't know how did you manage to crash it, even
| with misbehaving plugins it will manage the situation
| gracefully (usually with a notification that this plugin
| had an exception) but will continue to run perfectly.
| Modifying files due to locking sounds like a Windows
| issue, and has nothing to do with intellij.
|
| I really don't know what have you configured for all
| these things to happen -- what language was that project
| written in?
| wpietri wrote:
| That's just very different than my experience. Across a
| number of years and a few different major languages, from
| coding solo to working with teams. The only tuning I have
| to do is to tell it that using more RAM is ok. I'm sorry
| you're having those problems, and if you ever want to dig
| in on fixing them, drop me a line. But please understand
| it's pretty far off the median experience.
| jatone wrote:
| while I appreciate the offer; there is nothing to dig
| into here. jetbrains just doesn't bring anything to the
| table compared to other options. and it lost my trust on
| reliability in a massive way due to android studio and
| never really performing well at its core function,
| writing software, compared to things like sublime,
| vscode, even vim/emacs; once configured.
|
| and if I'm going to pay for something like an IDE it
| needs to be rock solid when the free competition is
| competent.
| wpietri wrote:
| It may not bring anything to the table for you. I would
| find it helpful if you phrased your criticisms in a way
| that didn't deny the possibility that others might find
| plenty of value.
| jatone wrote:
| perfectly happy how I've phrased my criticisms. if
| jetbrains wants glowing reviews, then they can make a
| glowing product. I've been upfront where my issues
| reside, how they impacted me and they are well known
| issues with the tool. I'm not the first to make these
| comments nor will I be the last.
|
| however, your tone in this thread implies you're not a
| neutral player in this. do you have any relation with
| intellij/jetbrains?
| wokwokwok wrote:
| There's a real opportunity here for JB.
|
| If they're prepared to give this away for free, and make money
| off of upselling folk on hosted remote dev envs (or licensing the
| server side to cloud providers) then this could actually compete
| with vscode.
|
| They basically don't have any other product that is competitive
| with vscode.
|
| ...but, I'm skeptical they're willing to make the jump to
| freemium based on their other SAS product offerings which have...
| hm... not been hugely lucrative.
| quanticle wrote:
| They could compete with VSCode, but what would be their
| competitive advantage? Being a pale imitation of VSCode with
| fewer features and tied to an online offering that has less
| mindshare than Github doesn't seem to me like it's a winning
| strategy.
| simion314 wrote:
| They managed to sell in the past a C# plugin for Visual
| Studio, so people paid money on Visual Studio and this
| company convinced them to pay more and buy a plugin for a
| Microsoft language and a Microsoft IDE, people paid because
| it is a great product (for their projects). IMO they for sure
| can improve on VS Code, I bet they could sell you plugins
| better then MS can create and I think this is because when
| you are closer to your user you focus on the important stuff
| and no dude with a vision pushes things into a shitty
| direction.
|
| From my daily experience I can oopen a file and see what
| parts of the code were created in VS Studio or other basic
| editors, they have linting errors all over the place, I am
| not sure if the defaults are shit or if the linters are shit
| but I can confirm I can tell what (JavaScript)code was not
| made with a good IDE.
|
| I worked in Visual Stduio, Eclipse ,Intellij, QtCreator, and
| VS Code , and I am paying for Intellij because it makes me
| more productive , this might not apply on your specific
| project or your personal workflow.
|
| P.S. I still use my terminal tools like cat,tail,grep, diff
| so I am not a guy that needs pretty GUIs and I run an old
| Kubuntu LTS so I am not the person that looks at software at
| some identity badge.
| pjmlp wrote:
| When teammates ask me why my VS setup feels so fast
| compared with theirs, my answer is quite simple, I don't
| use resharper.
| simion314 wrote:
| But similarly my nano feels faster then youur VS setup,
| the important part is if how productive you are.
| Sometimes is a good idea to see what makes your IDE or
| plugins slow, for web dev you can probably improve your
| IDE performance but telling it to ignore certain files
| and folders like the node_modules folder or the .min.js
| files.
|
| Though the conclusion is that ReSharper slowness and
| price is worth it because Microsoft IDE is substandard
| and for some reason all the MS billions can't find a few
| competent devs and a competent manager to handle the
| problem( they are probably still fighting on merging the
| GUIs or how to name their garbage APIs in Azure ... yeah
| I am working with some backend MS APIs and their are
| garbage like created by teams that hate each other)
| pjmlp wrote:
| Actually the conclusion is that most people that advocate
| for Resharper aren't aware of VS Rosylin plugins, and
| most of them are like those that buy SLRs, but actually
| only need the features of a compact camera, but it feels
| good to carry that SLR around.
| simion314 wrote:
| I did not work with .Net and Windows in a long time so
| maybe this time Microsoft done something good, from my
| experience MS does all the evil/stupid stuff first and
| only when forced they attempt to do a good job.
|
| Question if this cool plugin is so good and is from
| Microsoft is it bundled in Visual studio or easy to
| install from a GUI or is still a work in progress and you
| need to track the git master branch?
|
| I still hate MS they failed to promote C# and .Net, if
| for example Silverlight would ahve been open sourced and
| made cross platform then most of the SPA could have been
| crated today with a decent language with a decent
| standard library , then for smple web pages and forms we
| would add some JS here and there. But MS had to try to
| make the shit Windows only then kill it and embrace the
| JS/node garbage
| [deleted]
| ska wrote:
| > Actually the conclusion is ...
|
| Don't forget the time component. A lot of c# shops
| standardized on Visual Studio with resharper when a lot
| of alternatives either didn't exist or were notably worse
| (at least in function; resharper was always terribly slow
| iirc)
| thrower123 wrote:
| A world where ReSharper hadn't existed would have the
| same old craptastic minimal refactoring tools that VS
| 2013 had. I'm glad JetBrains is pushing Microsoft to
| improve
| pjmlp wrote:
| Borland taught me to always bet on the platform owner
| instead of playing catch-up with third parties.
|
| I never bothered with paying for extra plugins and know
| Visual Studio since version 5.
| manigandham wrote:
| That's mostly Visual Studio's problem with
| multithreading, process communication, and 32-bit memory
| size limitations.
|
| Rider (basically Intellij with Resharper plugins) is
| incredibly fast and productive in comparison, and VS 2022
| is finally catching up with the move to 64-bit.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Why should I bother to pay for an IDE that only has a
| subset of the features of IDE developed by the platform
| owner?
| kaba0 wrote:
| It will use the same intelligence as what drives intellij
| today, which can be turned on for the occasional project, yet
| it will start fast enough for opening random files with
| syntax highlighting, something I personally use vscode for.
|
| Also, what may not have been mentioned, that intelligence can
| run both locally, as well as hosted somewhere else, eg. on a
| much more powerful server computer.
| atraac wrote:
| I really hope it's free too. Otherwise it makes no sense. As a
| customer paying for full IDE(Rider) I won't kneecap myself by
| paying for vscode alternative, even though I really hate
| working in vscode. If they make it free, they could get a big
| chunk of the market, especially if they actually provide it
| with IntelliJ level of autocomplete, refactorings, multicursor
| support etc. They have quite a lot of money from regular IDEs,
| if they can release this for free and monetize cloud support, I
| think they'll be fine. It probably won't take away money from
| fully fledged IDE users anyway, but I'd love to have IntelliJ-
| vscode alternative.
| quanticle wrote:
| >If they make it free, they could get a big chunk of the
| market, especially if they actually provide it with IntelliJ
| level of autocomplete, refactorings, multicursor support etc.
|
| If they did that, then why would anyone buy IntelliJ?
|
| I understand why Microsoft came out with VSCode. They didn't
| have anything to offer for developers who weren't already
| bought into the Windows/.Net stack. VSCode was an effort to
| reach out to those developers and tell them, "Hey, even if
| you don't use Windows, even if you've never touched C#, we
| still have something to offer you."
|
| JetBrains isn't in that position. Their IDEs are cross-
| platform (though, admittedly, some platforms are more equal
| than others). Moreover, their IDEs are all they have. They're
| not like Microsoft, where sacrificing some Visual Studio
| sales can be justified as a way of attracting developers to
| the broader platform.
|
| I really don't understand the product strategy here. Either
| they keep Fleet cut down, disadvantaging it in comparisons
| against VSCode, or they make it full-featured, and
| cannibalize IntelliJ license renewals.
|
| What's the long-term play that I'm missing?
| Aeolun wrote:
| > What's the long-term play that I'm missing?
|
| Sell Fleet only as part of their all product pack? Make
| Fleet the new product for $15/month that can gobble up huge
| chunks of VS code developers?
| miskin wrote:
| Maybe they want to sell more Space licences.
| ReaLNero wrote:
| I think polyglot IDEs like VSCode serve a different niche
| to PyCharm, CLion etc. In a professional context, you
| usually end up doing 80% of your coding in one language, so
| it only makes sense to use an editor that semantically
| understands the language to amplify your coding. One common
| use case where I resort to IntelliJ tools is refactoring
| methods/classes/variables, since it feels so much safer.
|
| My personal take is that IntelliJ stands to gain a lot of
| developer goodwill and gets the proverbial foot in the door
| by putting Fleet at the forefront.
|
| I mean, even if a lot of licenses get cannibalized, they
| could always resort to selling user data. I don't think
| IntelliJ is _that_ sort of company though, they seem pretty
| ethical from what I know about them.
| Zababa wrote:
| > In a professional context, you usually end up doing 80%
| of your coding in one language, so it only makes sense to
| use an editor that semantically understands the language
| to amplify your coding.
|
| Another consequence of that point is that VSCode is this
| editor if your main language is TypeScript. At work we
| use VSCode for JS/TS, and Visual Studio for C#/C++ on
| Windows.
| nwatson wrote:
| Fleet will likely become part of the "All Products Pack"
| which at this point costs $149 annually pre-tax (personal
| license), with special add-on integrations for several
| targeted cloud environments being rental add-ons.
|
| The personal license All-Products-Pack is great. I'm
| prevented by the license from ever expensing it but I
| spend every day immersed in PyCharm, IntelliJ IDEA,
| DataGrip, and soon GoLand. I can open as many
| simultaneous copies as I need on personal and work
| computers, Windows, macOS, and Linux.
| Aeolun wrote:
| Given what developers are paid, I'm perfectly happy to
| pay for it myself to save myself the hassle of dealing
| with procurement.
| atraac wrote:
| > If they did that, then why would anyone buy IntelliJ?
|
| I think the general idea is that it's a lightweight
| editor(like vscode) that stays lightweight with as many
| features as it can from IntelliJ. If you work on decently
| sized project you'll still want to use full IDE. If you
| want to force yourself to work on a big project with
| vscode, nothing is stopping you. But would you
| realistically switch from IntelliJ to vscode? Probably not,
| even though it technically supports (almost?) everything
| you need.
|
| In my case f.e. I'll continue to work using Rider, but I'd
| like to be able to open some minor html/js/other
| projects(like our Azure B2C Templates, or my Azure DevOps
| extension project which is mostly powershell) in something
| smaller. Currently I can do that using vscode, but I'm not
| a big fan of vscode itself so it's usually just annoying.
| quanticle wrote:
| >But would you realistically switch from IntelliJ to
| vscode?
|
| No, of course not. VSCode's support for Java is a hot
| mess, and that doesn't look to be changing any time soon.
|
| But would I switch from PyCharm to VSCode? I made that
| exact switch at work a little while ago and I haven't
| looked back.
| vips7L wrote:
| How is VS Codes support for Java a hot mess? For the most
| part as long as you use maven or gradle it works
| perfectly fine.
| nobleach wrote:
| RedHat seems to be working pretty hard to make that
| experience better. For a long time, there has been a need
| to be "somewhere in between". While Eclipse, Netbeans and
| IntelliJ have been all about the entire Java
| EE/Application Server experience. Some folks didn't need
| all that just to write a few Spring Boot microservices.
| Sure the IntelliJ Maven task tab makes things super easy.
| Some folks are okay with typing out those commands on the
| CLI. So, VSCode with syntax highlighting, auto-imports,
| and some smart completion is enough to get the job done.
| cunthorpe wrote:
| > What's the long-term play that I'm missing?
|
| Bet: They're building the core for all of their future
| products.
|
| Start free, gain momentum, have "pro" addons, slowly start
| offering products like WebStorm but built on top of Fleet.
| pjmlp wrote:
| VSCode origins precede that idea, it was born as the Monaco
| editor for editing in Azure, before it came into the
| desktop, also the main architect behind it is Erich Gamma.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUGWOdN3JHU
| technobabbler wrote:
| IntelliJ is clunky as ef, and slow as hell. It's really
| powerful but feels really ancient, and isn't native on
| anything. I hate Java. I hope this is their attempt to
| completely bypass the old platform and create a new product
| from scratch, starting with vscode parity but eventually
| reaching the power of IntelliJ and replacing it wholesale.
|
| I don't know if that's their actual intent, but I can hope.
| digerata wrote:
| You hate Java but are okay with the DOM as an editor...
| technobabbler wrote:
| What does "DOM as editor" mean? As in the HTML DOM and
| manipulating it directly? How is that an editor/IDE?
| Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.
|
| My only experience with Java is as an user, and it's
| never been positive. Whether it's the applets of yore or
| the modern Java apps, there's always performance, memory,
| JRE issues and terrible, second-rate UIs. Maybe the
| language itself is beautiful, I wouldn't know, but the
| user experience is terrible.
| 5560675260 wrote:
| OP refers to VSCode being built on web stack. But AFAIK
| there is little to none actual DOM manipulations after
| initial setup since everything is rendered on canvas.
| mmargerum wrote:
| at that point why don't they just use native + skia ?
| Seems weird to build a web based editor to then just use
| canvas.
| shrew wrote:
| At a guess, they're probably sticking with it because it
| enables Javascript/Typescript as an interfacing language
| for plugins which, given the language's popularity and
| cross-platform nature, is probably part of the reason the
| plugin catalogue is so large.
| pjmlp wrote:
| I have this dream that eventually VSCode will just be
| React Native in disguise.
| kaba0 wrote:
| Java does trade off memory for better performance (and
| power saving!), but it is an extremely fast platform with
| state of the art GCs and JIT compilers and one of the
| biggest open-source ecosystems. It's not the best for
| desktop UIs but even a decade old GUI will work just fine
| on the latest edition (seriously, I found some random
| algorithm visualizer in a jar from God knows where and it
| just ran perfectly). And it's not like there is one
| ultimate solution for GUIs unfortunately.
| mbreese wrote:
| I believe they are referring to using vscode, which is
| based on Electron. Thus, instead of native code, it's
| HTML based (although, not necessarily DOM based).
| native_samples wrote:
| Second rate UI? The IntelliJ UI is pretty great, it's
| very well optimized and has a billion features. I don't
| think any new IDE would look significantly different.
| There are only so many ways to do buttons, scroll bars,
| trees and editors.
| technobabbler wrote:
| I don't actually mean IntelliJ in particular, but Java
| having its own UI kit. Nothing looks or feels native on
| any platform. I've heard something about a graphical
| widget kit that emulates native on Java, but as far as I
| can tell IntelliJ (and most Java apps I've seen) don't
| use it.
|
| Though since you mentioned IntelliJ, I find its UI pretty
| hectic too, a hodgepodge of 90s-style MDI and modern tabs
| and split panes. Some of the most common patterns (going
| between the terminal, code editor, debugger, git, npm,
| and DB browser) requires navigating between like seven
| different places in no logical arrangement.
|
| Why is npm a tab bar in the lower left, the actual npm
| list in a pane above it, git/terminal debugger on the
| bottom, the code editor in the upper right, the db
| browser in the upper right sidebar (which isn't even
| visible by default), the db query itself in a tab mixed
| with the code editor, the debugger output in the bottom
| but the button to start it in the top toolbar...
|
| I can never find the features easily because I don't know
| which pane or tab group it's supposed to be in. In
| something like VScode, the features are categorized in a
| hierarchy and arranged in layers in the left sidebar in a
| sensical drill-down pattern. Xcode is visually cleaner
| too.
|
| It's not just about the presentation of UI widgets
| (scroll bars, etc.) but how they're arranged in terms of
| information architecture, discoverability, cognitive
| load, diving down, etc. Everything is a "module" of equal
| value competing for screen real estate and together it is
| pretty visually overwhelming, especially to new users.
| More important things like the terminal or debugger
| shouldn't have the same level of prominence as the less
| important things (profiler, R jobs). Not all features get
| used with the same frequency, or in the same contexts,
| but IntelliJ organizes them all pretty flat.
|
| That's just me, though. It's like a lesser version of the
| MS Office "toolbars vs ribbon" debate. If Jetbrains
| actually tried to overhaul their UX, they'd probably see
| a mass exodus of wizened old beards.
| native_samples wrote:
| I think the criticisms of layouts are fair. WRT native
| UI, there's SWT which was used by Jetbrain's primary
| competitor Eclipse, but obviously users didn't care that
| the widgets were native because in the end IntelliJ has a
| much higher market share.
|
| This is probably because not many apps really use native
| widgets anymore on any platform. It's not even clear what
| the native UI toolkit on Windows is anymore, due to the
| numerous aborted attempts to replace Win32 that didn't
| quite take off.
|
| The Swing widgets IntelliJ uses aren't any worse than
| native widgets and some are actually much better, for
| example, any tree view in IntelliJ supports excellent
| typeahead search, many text inputs are in fact full blown
| code editors and so on. I don't feel I'm missing anything
| by them not being Cocoa.
| mmargerum wrote:
| I have both. VSCode is noticeably faster. How do you know
| jetbrains new editor isn't a "Dom editor"?
|
| I kinda hope JB built it as a native editor and just uses
| a scripting language for plugins.
| kaba0 wrote:
| Because VSCode is a fancy text editor, not a full-blown
| IDE like intellij. Even with myriads of extensions, the
| gap is real between the two.
| nsonha wrote:
| > How do you know jetbrains new editor isn't a "Dom
| editor"?
|
| > Because VSCode is a fancy text editor, not a full-blown
| IDE.
|
| What does that have anything to respond to the question?
|
| I kept seeing people making this claim as if there is a
| definition of what an IDE is. VSC has project-wide code
| anyalysis and step debug. It may not be a good IDE in
| YOUR opinion but tell me what definition of IDE are you
| using?
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| >If they make it free, they could get a big chunk of the
| market
|
| If they make it free they could get a big chunk of nothing.
|
| I've never understood programmers willingness to devalue
| their own trade like this.
| LeonM wrote:
| I've used Jetbrains products for a long time, both as a
| student, and later professionally.
|
| Jetbrains products are free for students, and paid for
| professional use. In my opinion, the pricing of the product is
| spot on. My company pays about ~200 euro per seat per year,
| which is a good price for the quality tooling you get.
|
| In my experience, VSCode is not competitive with Jetbrains
| products. Their products come with support and good
| documentation. The proposition is clear and you get exactly
| what you pay for.
|
| So please JetBrains, do _not_ jump on the freemium bandwagon.
| Just have us pay for a professional tool without constantly
| being pushed to some SaaS product offering.
| major505 wrote:
| If yout think about it, Jetbrains is more a counter part to
| Visual Studio then VSCode.
|
| Vscode was more a advanced text editor to compete with atom.
| But I don`t see it losing it`s grip of the market anytime
| soon. Theres lot of tools that use vscode as base, that will
| be difficult for them to convert, like platformio IDE for
| example.
| cunthorpe wrote:
| To be fair the same could be said about Sublime Text, yet
| here we are.
|
| If JetBrains releases a free tool that competes well with
| VSC on core features, I don't see why the community
| wouldn't adopt it.
|
| VSC is _far_ from perfection, it's only a step up from ST
| in that it offers a few more tools by default.
| gh02t wrote:
| Platformio does already have a quite good plugin for CLion.
| y4mi wrote:
| > _Jetbrains products are free for students, and paid for
| professional use. In my opinion, the pricing of the product
| is spot on. My company pays about ~200 euro per seat per
| year, which is a good price for the quality tooling you get._
|
| well, they're in violation of the licence if thats true. The
| 150EUR/250EUR licence is for private people, companies have
| to pay 500EUR/650EUR.
|
| /edit: i guess non of the people that are responding to me
| can read. he specifically said that the company is paying for
| that and the price of non-intellij licences don't overlap
| with 200EUR on any tier I can see.
| WildGreenLeave wrote:
| As far as I know you are allowed to use the individual
| license commercially [0], it is just that you cannot
| reimburse it from a company. I wonder where the line is and
| if you are allowed to use the individual license as a
| freelancer.
|
| [0]: https://www.jetbrains.com/store/comparison.html#Licens
| eCompa...
| Jtsummers wrote:
| https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-
| gb/articles/207240855-Can-...
|
| You can use it for commercial projects. The intent,
| though, is that only _you_ can use that license of the
| product. So with my Jetbrains purchase I can work on
| personal projects at home, or (if corporate IT allows it,
| apparently they do here) install it on my office computer
| and work on corporate projects. But I _cannot_ install it
| on a laptop at the office and walk away, letting others
| use that license.
| rovr138 wrote:
| >I wonder where the line is and if you are allowed to use
| the individual license as a freelancer.
|
| You are.
|
| > Purpose of use: General commercial
|
| It just can't be reimbursed.
| kittiepryde wrote:
| Unless they're only paying for a single product ( vs the
| all products pack? )
| y4mi wrote:
| no, thats was why i wrote two numbers each; completely
| spelled out: private person: 150EUR
| intellij only, 250 EUR all products corporation:
| 500 EUR intellij only, 650EUR all products
|
| https://www.jetbrains.com/idea/buy/#commercial
| rovr138 wrote:
| They never said IntelliJ. Pycharm is $199 USD for the
| first year for a corporation.
| Cu3PO42 wrote:
| You're missing something: larger companies can negotiate
| significant discounts when they buy in bulk. This applies
| even more for a product with negligible marginal cost.
| MattRix wrote:
| That's the first year pricing, it goes down significantly
| by the third year. A larger company could potentially
| negotiate a discount on top of that. Each of their
| applications can also be subscribed to individualy as well,
| some for around 200 euros.
| [deleted]
| rovr138 wrote:
| They said Jetbrains, not IntelliJ.
|
| There are other products that are $199 USD for the first
| year.
| nicce wrote:
| Tools are also free for open-source development:
| https://www.jetbrains.com/opensource/
|
| And for educational use (teachers) as well.
|
| So I don't see a reason to jump on the freemium bandwagon.
| They offer a lot for free already.
| bearjaws wrote:
| I love VS code, but insisting that its parsing is even nearly
| as good as anything from Jetbrains is laughable. Working with
| Rust in VS code is no where near as good as IntelliJ for
| example, and their Javascript `intellisense` is best in class.
| eropple wrote:
| I've never used IDEA and friends for JavaScript. Are they not
| using the LSP?
| ygra wrote:
| They've historically done a lot of things on their own for
| JS. So perhaps VS Code + TS language server isn't quite on
| par with their JS tooling (which works a lot better with
| TypeScript type definitions, though, so perhaps it's just
| mostly the same as well).
|
| However, what I personally hated was that there's so many
| squiggly underlined things ... in red, yellow, green and
| what other colors, each of which (regardless of color)
| could be either ignored or an actual error. Granted, that's
| how easy it is to properly check JS code for whether it
| does something sensible, but I didn't really find it
| helpful, especially because issue categorization and
| accuracy was so random.
| jatone wrote:
| > Granted, that's how easy it is to properly check JS
| code for whether it does something sensible
|
| > especially because issue categorization and accuracy
| was so random
|
| Stockholm syndrome is strong with this one. =)
|
| the reason you didn't find the IDE suggestions helpful is
| exactly because of how difficult it is to reason about
| dynamic language code. the tooling is basically just
| guessing and expecting you to deal with the noise on the
| off chance it found something.
| ygra wrote:
| I've ended up deciding for myself to never write JS and
| instead using TypeScript. So far it's working well. I
| just couldn't really see all that random guessing by the
| IDE as an advantage. If the only way to figure out
| whether the code is broken is to run it, then it's
| pointless to guess potential problems on every single
| expression because dealing with those takes more time
| than just testing the code - or results in the developer
| completely ignoring all diagnostics.
| eklavya wrote:
| Having used IntelliJ for a long time I would agree in all
| cases except rust and flutter. Flutter IntelliJ is not bad
| but rust analyser in vs code is miles ahead of IntelliJ rust.
| aldanor wrote:
| Agreed. Working with rust in e.g. CLion (or even the free
| PyCharm CE with Rust plug-in) beats vscode by a large margin,
| it's nowhere near comparable, especially when working with
| larger projects often requiring major refactoring etc.
| GrayShade wrote:
| Which Rust language server did you use?
| aldanor wrote:
| In vscode? Why RLS? rust-analyzer of course
| zackangelo wrote:
| Have you tried using rust-analyzer with VS Code? I find it to
| be a little rough around the edges but mostly pretty great. I
| used the Rust plugin for IntelliJ a couple of years ago and
| remembered being disappointed.
| GrayShade wrote:
| Which Rust language server did you use in Code?
| mythz wrote:
| JetBrains are not opposed to giving IDEs away & upselling which
| they're already doing for their Intelli IDEA Community [1] and
| PyCharm Community IDEs [2].
|
| Since this is a direct answer to VS Code's dominance, I expect
| they'll do something similar and have a free version that can
| can be run on commercial hosting options, e.g. Space, Cloud &
| Docker.
|
| [1] https://www.jetbrains.com/idea/download/
|
| [2] https://www.jetbrains.com/pycharm/download/
| square_usual wrote:
| And you can regularly use their IDEs for free through the
| Early Access Program. No license required.
| api wrote:
| > They basically don't have any other product that is
| competitive with vscode.
|
| All their IDEs are if competitive means "they cost a little bit
| but they actually work and aren't loaded with invasive
| telemetry."
| square_usual wrote:
| I don't see why they won't go the freemium route with Fleet.
| You can see it in IntelliJ already - CE is more than good
| enough for almost everything you want to do, but if you want
| tighter integration with Spring or other web frameworks, you
| can spring (pun intended) for Ultimate. Fleet could be like
| that - everything is baseline "good" with a bunch of first-
| party paid extensions that add a bunch of powerful capabilities
| - sort of like ReSharper for VS.
| rob74 wrote:
| > _CE is more than good enough for almost everything you want
| to do_
|
| ...as long as you use Java (or another JVM langue) to do it.
| Unfortunately they don 't offer a Community Edition for most
| of their other IDEs (PHPStorm, GoLand, CLion etc. etc.),
| although those are mostly based on open source languages too.
| Aeolun wrote:
| > They basically don't have any other product that is
| competitive with vscode.
|
| All their products are very competetive, even when paid. A
| license for any professional developer is a no brainer (in my
| opinion anyway).
|
| If they want me to pay more for a next gen Jetbrains IDE I'd do
| so without hesitation.
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