[HN Gopher] 2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically ...
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2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed
Author : unclebucknasty
Score : 107 points
Date : 2021-11-27 14:05 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.cnet.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.cnet.com)
| dmitrybrant wrote:
| I was an early-ish adopter of the Model 3 (2018), and I couldn't
| be happier with it. I've had zero hardware quality issues, and
| one software issue where it did a cold reboot one day and forgot
| my personalization settings. But otherwise it's an absolute
| pleasure.
|
| However, big caveat: I absolutely do not use Autopilot, nor do I
| ever plan to. I bought the car because I love to _drive_ it --
| the way it handles, the way it accelerates, etc. The only
| "automatic" feature I've used is literally the cruise control,
| i.e. maintaining a set speed on the highway. That's the farthest
| I trust it to do anything automatically.
|
| Being tangentially involved in the field of machine vision /
| machine learning, I understand the limitations of the current
| technology, and am appalled at how brazenly Tesla is rolling out
| this half-baked functionality to users, and marketing it as if
| full self-driving is just around the corner, when in fact it has
| a long, long way to go.
| aresant wrote:
| Rented my first Tesla from turo recently
|
| Super impressed with the range, performance, the modernity of the
| interfaces and thoughtfulness of features. Feels like the future.
|
| Sort of shocked by the build quality including a latch that got
| stuck and wouldn't allow the door to close. Managed to get it
| wedged open with a tool on hand, but could see it being a
| showstopper / tow truck moment for many.
|
| The quality / bs issues seem fixable so it's hard not to still
| feel optimistic about the platform on a whole, but one would hope
| between the record debt / demand / and liquidity of that org at
| the moment that they are briskly addressing.
| jokoon wrote:
| When are they going to build a small, cheap electric car? Model
| S, X, Y, 3 all those cars are heavy tanks.
|
| I'm quite tired of those companies always aiming for rich
| customers. If Musk was really for the environment, he would try
| to make those cars affordable.
|
| I guess Tesla doesn't have the production capacity to make a high
| production cheaper car yet?
| 01100011 wrote:
| There is talk of a Model 2 being exactly that car. Personally
| I'm happy with my Bolt(random fires notwithstanding) and find
| it fills that niche. If the Model 2 is out next year when my
| lease expires I'd consider it, but I suspect I'll stick with
| the Bolt since it will be fairly mature by then. I don't like
| the idea of buying a newly designed vehicle before the faults
| have been shaken out.
| yashap wrote:
| There are tonnes of reasonably priced PHEVs from other
| manufacturers, that are IMO great choices for people who simply
| want reliable, flexible cars that use very little gas. For
| example the PHEV versions of the Toyota RAV4, Kia Niro, Hyundai
| Santa Fe and Ioniq, Honda Clarity, Ford Escape, etc. Fully
| electric for city driving, gas when you need it for long trips,
| reasonably priced, from manufacturers who have been making
| reliable cars for decades. More practical and generally cheaper
| than fully electric cars.
|
| Tesla are a luxury brand, and they know it, I think they'd have
| trouble competing in the more mass market/practical space.
| They'll probably move there eventually, but I'm not surprised
| they're sticking with their more luxury niche for now, they're
| probably not yet capable of keeping costs as low as traditional
| car makers, while keeping quality high. They're basically still
| learning how to build cars at scale.
| moonchrome wrote:
| They are beyond production capacity with "rich cars" (IMO Y and
| 3 especially are firmly middle class cars). Why would they go
| into a market that's even higher volume and lower margins when
| they can't cover the more profitable market demand ?
|
| If anything, other manufacturers are trying to get out of that
| market segment because regulation is making it too unprofitable
| to be in (eg. mandatory safety features, CO2 emissions rates
| for ICEs), a lot of A segment is not getting refreshed in EU/is
| being discontinued. You will probably see small "expensive"
| cars like Electric Mini and Smart cars.
| faebi wrote:
| Exactly. They won't lower their prices and margins until their
| months of backlog clear up either because of less customers
| buying at that price point or more cars being build.
| noodle wrote:
| Well, the reality is that they also have to create and run a
| profitable business, as well, which they would have failed at
| if they started with cheaper vehicles. It seems likely they'll
| go downmarket eventually, once they have the scale to survive
| off of the lower margins that come with cheaper cars.
| wodenokoto wrote:
| Tesla's makes me happy that I don't have a lot of money nor a
| drivers license.
|
| They are SO desirable and yet so flawed.
|
| It's really nice not having to contemplate ownership of one.
| tpmx wrote:
| Tl;dr: The critical flaw is random braking in the mandatory crash
| avoidance system because they replaced radar with cameras +
| computer vision which has a lot of false positives in their
| current production software release.
|
| I'm curious: Is the reason cost, availability or ideology?
| fiddlerwoaroof wrote:
| I think what happened is they had a bunch of orders they
| couldn't deliver because they couldn't get shipments of the
| radar part in 2020. So, they decided to go vision-only for
| autopilot and now they're scrambling to get to parity.
| tziki wrote:
| It's widely thought to be due to the chip shortage. Tesla made
| numerous other adjustments due to chip shortage too.
| adam_arthur wrote:
| I would guess a bit of both.
|
| In theory cameras should work fine, given that humans are
| pretty good at driving by just using our eyes. Of course vision
| will never be theoretically better than radar/laser. But should
| be good enough in the long run, and cheaper/more flexible.
|
| My question is, what level of resolution and processing power
| is necessary to interpret inputs accurately though?
|
| Just anecdotally, seems like autopilot is many years away from
| being close to autonomous. Self driving is an 80-20 kind of
| problem... The 20% of hard stuff seems completely unsolved by
| Tesla, judging by YouTube videos, reviews etc. Personally I
| think Google will beat them to the punch by many years
| FireBeyond wrote:
| The cameras in a Tesla are not 576mp (which is the closest
| approximation or estimate of our eyes), and nor do they have
| 21 stops of dynamic range (same).
|
| And they also don't have 16+ years, minimum, of 24/7 "non-
| machine learning" to augment their judgment.
| growt wrote:
| I disagree with your second paragraph. Not all of your
| first 16 years are spent in driving situations (especially
| not 24h a day) but Tesla's have driven many years in total
| and almost all of them can be applied to improve the AI
| running in all the cars.
| adam_arthur wrote:
| Anybody familiar with the design Tesla uses for self
| driving?
|
| Do they simply input video clips of common scenarios and
| what the correct output should be? Is it just a single
| neural net, or are there rules hard coded in? Multiple
| neural nets handling different things?
|
| I assume there are many approaches to automated driving
| that are effectively dead ends. But would be interesting
| if just having enough video clips/correct corresponding
| behavior was enough to build a fully functioning model.
| belltaco wrote:
| https://youtu.be/j0z4FweCy4M?t=2795
| jefftk wrote:
| That's not even counting the generations of evolution that
| went into pre-training the neural structure
| dillondoyle wrote:
| This source says they are only 1280x960 which ML reduces to
| 160x120 depth grid?
|
| Seems crazily low resolution to me and also somewhat
| amazing they can do what they can with that (which I think
| doesn't matter much as it's still scary if they can't avoid
| obvious concrete obstacles or do the opposite brake ing op
| says)
|
| https://twitter.com/greentheonly/status/1412597377228226562
| https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/bgqekv/what_i
| s...
| muglug wrote:
| Yeah, humans with eyesight that bad are not allowed on
| the road (for good reason).
| stefan_ wrote:
| Not a lot of those around at age 16, which is the last
| time anyone cares to check.
| ravi-delia wrote:
| Our eyes are only really high resolution in a tiny patch,
| and after some initial learning most of vision is a solved
| problem by the age of 3. That's not to say that Tesla is
| any closer to using cameras and machine learning to
| replicate human vision, just pointing out the comparison
| doesn't really make sense. There's no reason to think that
| 576mp cameras and 16 years of training are necessary _or_
| sufficient. We 'll just have to wait and find out.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| A camera will never match radar range finding in adverse
| conditions. Those times where you'd like the safety features
| you're paying a premium for to actually work.
| georgewfraser wrote:
| I don't know how to square this review with my own experience of
| owning a Y for a year. The autopilot is nearly perfect,
| noticeably better than a human driver in stop and go traffic on
| the highway. Given the history of downright dishonest reviews by
| old school car people with an irrational hatred of Tesla, this
| review really should have been accompanied by video evidence of
| phantom braking.
| [deleted]
| csa wrote:
| Agreed.
|
| I got my Model Y in June.
|
| Yes, sometimes it has phantom braking. For reference, on a 9
| hour drive to LV from my house, it happened maybe 5 times, and
| they were all fixed with a mild press of the accelerator. If
| this is a deal breaker for you, don't get a Tesla. If the
| failed promise of FSD is a deal breaker for you, don't get a
| Tesla (I don't have it and don't want it).
|
| Other than the minor issues (for me) of occasional phantom
| braking and broken FSD promises, the car has been amazing.
| Build quality was perfect, it has run incredibly well, and it
| is simply a joy to drive.
|
| My friend ordered his a week after I took him on a ride, and he
| doesn't think he will ever own a car that's not a Tesla (I
| disagree with him, because competition will be a thing at some
| point, but he's directionally correct).
|
| Many of my other friends have made their deposit and are just
| waiting for their number to come up.
|
| Rather than read reviews, talk to people who own the model you
| are planning to purchase (same model and similar "model year").
| Then take the car on a test drive. You will probably know at
| that point if it's for you or not.
| btbuilder wrote:
| Maybe I am old-school but 5 times in a 9 hour drive seems
| unacceptably high for a potentially dangerous event. Is it
| incorrect to believe the car brakes at full braking force? Is
| there some predictor of the car making this error that makes
| it easier to handle?
| muglug wrote:
| > this review really should have been accompanied by video
| evidence of phantom braking
|
| There's a video review in the article which includes many
| examples of phantom breaking.
| georgewfraser wrote:
| Doh, how did I miss that? Now I understand: the phantom
| breaking is all on non-highways. I only use autopilot on
| highways and highway-like roads.
| tyingq wrote:
| This part seems like fair criticism to me:
|
| _" looking at the Autopilot status and navigation prompts
| means having to gaze well down toward the bottom of that
| display. That means taking your eyes a long way from the road.
| A simple gauge cluster or heads-up display would solve the
| issue, but none are available, a curious omission on a car
| costing this much."_
|
| Hard to comment on the phantom braking without experiencing it
| myself though.
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| I've owned a Model X for a year. It dates from before they
| removed radar, so autopilot still works very well.
|
| The rest of the car, however, does not. It is the least reliable
| car I have ever known. I am currently tracking ten faults, and
| waiting for my fifth service, which could only be booked with
| nearly a month to wait.
|
| The most serious faults involve the car sometimes failing to
| start without a hard reboot first (!), and then a constant stream
| of non-sensical errors while driving, which cause it to beep
| loudly with no way to stop it.
|
| Dear reader, do not make my mistake, do not buy a Tesla. But not
| for the usual anti-Tesla propaganda reasons. Autopilot works
| great. Even the weird "falcon wing" doors are actually very good.
| It's just that the quality is awful and service is both
| overbooked and doesn't actually fix things.
|
| I've never regretted a car purchase more.
|
| PS. Does anyone in the bay area want to buy a Model X? ;)
| [deleted]
| shituonui wrote:
| >Autopilot works great.
|
| I don't think anyone claims otherwise on the older models. The
| problem is twofold:
|
| 1. They promised "Full Self Driving" and delivered ordinary
| driver assistance.
|
| 2. The vision-based approach just plain does not work.
| gnicholas wrote:
| Car buyers who are unhappy with their Teslas should look into
| their local 'lemon law', which can be very consumer-friendly.
| In CA, for example, the lemon law covers you up to 18 months
| after purchase, and if you satisfy any one of the prongs then
| the manufacturer will be required to buy the car back from you.
| Summary of the criteria: [1]
|
| * for defects that could cause injury/death, the manufacturer
| has tried unsuccessfully to fix the problem twice
|
| * for any other defects, the manufacturer has tried
| unsuccessfully to fix the problem 4 times
|
| * the vehicle has been 'in the shop' for a total of 30 days
| (need not be consecutive)
|
| We had a VW that qualified for lemon law relief, and VW was
| forced to purchase the car back from us, including sales tax.
| There was a minimal amount that was not refunded, to reflect
| the month or so that we got to use the car before it started
| acting up.
|
| 1: https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/when-can-you-use-
| calif...
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| Unfortunately I've had so many different problems that Tesla
| has only had the opportunity to look at each one once or
| twice. And none of them are of the "injury/death" kind, at
| least as far as I know.
|
| But they keep piling up, up to ten now.
| gnicholas wrote:
| Sounds like you might eventually satisfy the third prong.
| You only need to hit one of the three.
| tdhz77 wrote:
| My Tesla phantom brakes me right into a highway divider and
| totaled my car.
| martythemaniak wrote:
| I've had a Model3 for three and a half years now (very early
| VIN). It's been our primary and for much of the time, only car.
| It's been fantastic, and I've recommended it to everyone, and
| three people I know have purchased 3s/Ys as well and have also
| been super satisfied. Is it flawless? No - upon delivery the
| read badge was missing and the glove box had a gap. Went to get
| it fixed. Year after that the front arms needed replacing. A
| few months ago the charge port actuator stopped working (you
| can still lift it manually) - clicked a few buttons in the app
| and a guy came by to fix it on our driveway.
|
| We have a secondary ICEV and we both hate it and mock it. It is
| actually one the best ICEVs in its class, but fundamentally,
| all ICEVs are irredeemably terrible. It needs replacing soon
| and I've been through every single EV out there considering
| alternatives, but in the end we have to replace it with a Model
| Y.
|
| Teslas are not flawless cars, but they are, simply, the best
| cars.
| Amezarak wrote:
| Can you elaborate on what makes ICE vehicles "irredeemably
| terrible"? I can never understand what I'm missing. I have
| two:
|
| One is the cheapest car made by a major manufacturer, and the
| cheapest trim model. I have no complaints about how it
| drives, I actually enjoy it. But on very hot days, the AC has
| trouble keeping up, and an electronic display has been only
| intermittently functional for some time. Naturally, being a
| special electronic display, it costs some $600 to replace, so
| I haven't bothered. On very long drives (5+ hours), it does
| wear me out more than the second car.
|
| The other is a crossover. It is slightly more comfortable
| than the hatchback. The AC is definitely powerful enough,
| even on hot days. It is much more pleasant to drive on long
| trips, I think primarily due to the lanekeeping and automatic
| cruise control. My only real complaint is too many controls
| are on the touchscreen - basically any AC controls other than
| temperature and fan speed.
|
| When I ask other EV owners, it seems like all they can say
| are "it's really quiet" and "it has amazing acceleration."
| But my cars are already very quiet (sometimes I am not sure
| if they are on) and I never need any more acceleration than I
| have - I avoid accelerating hard in general, since it wastes
| gas and I'm sure also battery. And given the problems I do
| have with my cars, it seems like the average EV is going to
| be worse - if I don't like touchscreen controls, surely
| buying a Tesla is not going to make me happy. So what is the
| factor EVs have that just blows ICEZs away for the average
| Joe? I just don't get it.
|
| EDIT: I guess another one they frequently mention is "not
| having to go to the gas station", but a five minute trip once
| a week isn't really causing me much hardship, especially if
| I'm going in to buy lottery tickets anyway.
| downut wrote:
| Also, for example a Prius has an solid 450 mile range,
| takes less than 10 min to refuel to max range, which
| generally coincides with the passengers need to refuel
| and/or pit stop. Someone told me that a Prius can drive all
| day at 85-95 mph, 40+ mpg. A multi-state trip across the US
| West sounds ghastly in a Tesla, logistically speaking. My
| Tundra has many times been days out in the bush w/o a gas
| station, because I carry cans.
|
| I look at a Tesla as a lower functioning, and obvs from all
| the comments, much less reliable machine. People love them!
| Guffaws.
|
| (I have nothing against EVs as a _technology_ : when I can
| buy a 450 mile range, 10 minute refuel, as reliable as my
| Prioids and Tundra EV, for a similar price, I will.)
| ozzythecat wrote:
| Best by what metric?
|
| I have a six year old Corolla. No issues at all. We put gas
| in it and have tire rotations and regular oil changes.
|
| My Corolla is like my AirPod Pros. It just works, every time,
| consistently. Personally, I just want a car that has no
| hassles and is dependable above all else. I'd like a cold A/C
| on hot days and a good heater on cold days.
|
| I guess my point is - I'd love to drive an electric car and
| not have to go to the gas pump. But I'm not willing to deal
| with all the myriad issues I so often hear about from Tesla
| owners. I'm not interested in paying a premium for some auto
| maker to alpha, beta, and pre-prod test their product before
| getting it to modern manufacturing and reliability standards.
| ohgodplsno wrote:
| >Teslas are not flawless cars, but they are, simply, the best
| cars.
|
| Pffffrt. By what metrics you would measure that aside, it
| does feel like you've never been into high quality cars. A
| Mercedes Class S is a veritable massive step up compared to a
| Tesla, for similar prices. Recent EVs like the Ioniq 5 are
| very much matching the Teslas in everything
| boppo1 wrote:
| Your experience of multiple things failing in just a few
| years is not what the average person would call "fantastic".
| Marazan wrote:
| My car doesn't randomly apply the brakes for no reason.
| martythemaniak wrote:
| Neither does mine.
| danw1979 wrote:
| Mine - a UK Prius plug-in 2013 - still, after all the
| recalls and software updates, skids forward uncontrollably
| if you're braking and hit a drain lid, because the traction
| control goes loopy somehow.
|
| I'm not defending Tesla here, but let's not pretend the
| established manufacturers don't run into safety issues when
| it comes to the clever software under the hood.
| vesrah wrote:
| These kind of ABS issues (braking over a big bump, normal
| braking to an extremely slippery surface with just one
| wheel, etc) are pretty common among many cars. They
| basically all use one of a few ABS systems from Bosch or
| Continental with the parameters set to match the chassis
| / tire / etc setup.
| rock_hard wrote:
| Had a Model Y for a year now
|
| Hands down the best car I have ever had and I have owned Audis,
| BMWs and other high end cars.
|
| Whenever I have to drive a non Tesla me and my wife just can't
| stop laughing at how ridiculous they are...it's like operating
| steam engines
|
| Sucks that others had problems with it but everyone I know
| including ourselves couldn't be more happy with their Tesla
| dntrkv wrote:
| > Sucks that others had problems with it but everyone I know
| including ourselves couldn't be more happy with their Tesla
|
| This is my experience talking to everyone I know with a
| Tesla. Not saying the complaints aren't real, but the
| internet really does bring out the selection bias when it
| comes to people having issues with their purchase. If you
| look at Consumer Reports for most satisfied car purchases,
| all of the Teslas make the top 10.
| bryan0 wrote:
| Consumer Reports agrees with you:
|
| > Model X ranked dead-last among all cars for reliability,
| scoring a 5 out of 100.
|
| https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tesla-ranks-almost-dead-...
| zarkov99 wrote:
| I have a model S P85+ that is now 8+ years old. Its the best
| car I have ever had, bar none, and I have had nice cars before.
| Its still smooth, powerful, comfortable, silent, safe and I
| still love to drive it. I have had issues with it, over the
| years, but every single time, Tesla stepped up, sorted the
| issue in the most convenient way possible, sometimes working my
| driveway, sometimes by driving a loaner to my office. I have
| never had a car that was better or service that was anywhere in
| the same class. I will likely never buy any other brand of car.
| Dear reader, please buy a Tesla, its the best car out there,
| its the safest car for your family and its made in America, by
| a company that is showing all of us that America can still
| innovate, still lead the world.
| carlivar wrote:
| When was the last time they drove a loaner to you? As I
| understand it, that level of service was discontinued a few
| years back (a relic of the luxury S/X only days).
| worik wrote:
| " I have had issues with it, over the years, but every single
| time, Tesla stepped up"
|
| Is that not the point? The best car you have had, with
| issues.
|
| I have a Honda Fit. It is getting on to fifteen years old
| now. No issues ever except for wear.
|
| But Honda know a lot about making cars. Tesla tried to
| disrupt the entire process. This is where hubris gets you
| blamazon wrote:
| Model X ownership is a breeze far from the Bay Area. My mom's
| model X has gone in at least a dozen times and there's never a
| wait for an appointment. The local service center is excellent.
| zzleeper wrote:
| > A dozen times
|
| That's what's so weird to me. I own an old 2012 Hyundai
| Accent, bought used at ~12k, and over the last five years
| I've only taken it for:
|
| - Checkup and oil change - Wheel change - Battery change
|
| But then I see all these examples of Tesla owners having to
| fix issue after issue after issue and saying "it's not so bad
| I just lost an afternoon each time going for an apt"
| ushakov wrote:
| i know someone who has a fully-charged model 3
|
| they had spent extra 20k euros to improve it
|
| for instance: they added custom roof sealing, because it was
| getting too loud inside when driving on the highways
|
| and then they (tastefully) refitted it with custom-made carbon
| elements on the inside and the outside
|
| tuned/improved Teslas are not that uncommon if you know some
| owners
| dylan604 wrote:
| Other than the noise sealing, that doesn't really say much
| negative about the car though (but that could be personal
| preference). That just says the person you know has plenty of
| money to customize the interior of the car in ways the
| manufacture doesn't offer.
| ushakov wrote:
| those two are the ones i can recollect right now, but there
| were definitely other issues as well
| FireBeyond wrote:
| There are people who will charge between 3 and 5 thousand for
| you to have your factory-new Tesla delivered to them so they
| can fix panel gaps and a laundry list of the most common
| complaints before they deliver the car to you...
|
| ... and a scarily large number of people who think this is a
| reasonable proposition.
| aspenmayer wrote:
| Wouldn't this be a repair outside warranty? One would hope
| this wouldn't violate your warranty, though I don't see why
| it should?
| hvgk wrote:
| A friend owns a 2020 model 3. The paint job was worse than my
| ass end 8 year old Citroen C3 so he spent the entire value of
| my ass end 8 year old Citroen C3 on a ceramic coating for it.
| And it still looks worse. I'd be so pissed if I'd spent on a
| Tesla and got that back for my money.
| obnauticus wrote:
| For something priced as high as the TM3, TMY or TMX, I find
| it hilarious that someone would spend even more money just to
| bring it to parity with other the automotive "luxuries" such
| as sound deadening. Mind you, most of these luxuries are have
| been provided by other economy cars at <50% of the cost for
| _decades_.
|
| Just as an observation I don't think the new money buying
| these cars understands or has ever sat in an actual nice car
| at the same price point. It's reminiscent of bay area
| housing. Crap quality, outrageously expensive, and with
| plenty of people with no other life experiences willing to
| defend it at a moment's notice.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Batteries are expensive, it's going to be challenging for
| everyone to match the cost structure of ice.
| ushakov wrote:
| yes, my overall feeling is that you can get more for money
| from other vendors, but they don't have the poop thing, so
| why even bother?
|
| for them it was all about getting a cool toy and all the
| fun that comes with it, rather than getting _a car_
| hvgk wrote:
| I don't think they've ever sat in a crap car either. Most
| of those are better. The four Teslas I've been in feel like
| I'm sitting in a bottom end Android tablet or some hospital
| equipment.
| wpietri wrote:
| Yeah, "move fast and break things" is a much better ethos for
| low-stakes software than high-stakes hardware.
| 01100011 wrote:
| I'm worried that manufacturers see people accepting Tesla
| quality and follow suit.
|
| I just read an article about Fisker following the "Apple
| model" where they stay lean and outsource all production. Uh,
| yeah that's great for a $1,000 phone but when I drop 50x that
| on a rolling death machine I expect quality to be controlled
| from end to end and kept in house.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| Had a lot of friends buy Teslas in the past few years. Exact
| same story: Faults everywhere, long waits, poor service (albeit
| super friendly and with a smile).
|
| One friend has received his Model 3 back twice now with the
| problem not fixed at all. He's resigned to just living with the
| problem until the service backlogs are lower.
|
| It has been interesting to see how tolerance for these quality
| issues has waned as the shine of the Tesla brand has started to
| wear off.
| Syonyk wrote:
| The early adopters were True Believers. Elon was changing the
| world, and to admit any fault was to interfere with The Plan.
| So they tended exceedingly defensive of Tesla, well past what
| the outside world considered absurd when they actually
| admitted the problems.
|
| Tesla has expanded outside that market, and to a person who
| is looking for a more or less reasonable car, that matches
| other cars in the price bracket, you're likely to hear
| nothing but good things about Tesla from the usual sources.
|
| And then you get one, and realize that they're failing basic
| quality control things that literally every other auto maker
| worked out 20 years or more ago, and their software has all
| the stability of beta smartphone software.
|
| None of this is new. It's just that anyone who said anything
| of the sort, or pointed out that you can't have 10x the sales
| on 1x the service centers, or such, got shouted down as a
| Tesla-shorting big oil shill for an awfully long time. Now,
| people who don't really care about Elon or The Plan are
| discovering that a Tesla is a bit of a crapshoot. Some are
| fine. Some are lemons. And God help you if you get a lemon,
| because the service experience (remember, according to the
| True Believers, dealerships are the spawn of Satan) is
| horrid.
| therouwboat wrote:
| Tesla also prioritizing deliveries to employees, investors
| and owners, probably not just to thank them.
| zhoujianfu wrote:
| My first X (2016) went to the shop 17 times in the first year,
| all for different issues. It's now finally more or less working
| reliably.
|
| I got a new X in 2019 and so far it's had no issues at all.
| steelframe wrote:
| > I got a new X in 2019
|
| I certainly salute you for your tenacity with the brand.
| After I unloaded my 2016 Model X, you couldn't convince me to
| touch another one of those cars with a 10-foot pole.
| 01100011 wrote:
| I'm a Tesla hater, but I think it's reasonable to assume
| their quality will dramatically improve as they get
| production figured out and stop hacking things together to
| meet their numbers.
| carlivar wrote:
| Well, Musk actively avoids the Toyota Production System
| which seems insane and offends me as an engineer. So I
| don't think quality will improve until he changes his
| stubborn tune.
| drewg123 wrote:
| [ slightly edited version of a reply i made a week ago on the
| CR article]:
|
| I have a 2017 Model X that I bought new. The EV part is great,
| its everything else that sucks. Since I've had it, I've taken
| it for service for the following:
|
| o Arrived w/o Tow pkg (Tesla "forgot" it, was installed via
| service center appt)
|
| o falcon wing doors improperly adjusted, leading to wind noise
| and water intrusion
|
| o Loud wind noise and fogging passenger side windows: Due to
| improperly installed "triangle" window on passenger door
|
| o Worn half shafts caused shudder under acceleration, replaced
| at ~20k miles
|
| o fogging drivers side A pillar camera after rain, leading to
| "navigate on autopilot unavailable"
|
| o Drove in "low" mode to preserve half shafts, caused excessive
| tire wear. Wore inner rear tires down to a puncture around 30k
| miles. Replaced tires and had car re-aligned to run in "low"
| mode.
|
| o Half shafts replaced again at 38k miles
|
| o Upper control arms shot around 39k miles, car just out of
| warranty, and Tesla initially wanted $1k to fix, but eventually
| fixed for free after I complained.
|
| All in all, I'm thinking to get a different car since I need a
| car that works. I don't want a non-Tesla EV since the charging
| options for non-Tesla EVs suck. I'm currently looking at PHEVs.
| Ironically, I'll probably unload the Tesla for another EV only
| if/when Tesla opens superchargers up to other EVs.
|
| How much of a loss would you take if you sold your Model X
| right now? They are not very available new, so I assume you
| would not loose too much money. Mine has actually gained a bit
| in value over the last 18 months or so..
| steelframe wrote:
| > Worn half shafts caused shudder under acceleration,
| replaced at ~20k miles
|
| I owned a 2016 Model X, and I got the dreaded half-shaft
| shudder after only 5k miles. When I took it in to the SC for
| evaluation, the tech driving the car blurted, "Oh yeah, there
| it is! This happens with all the Model Xs" when moderately
| accelerating uphill and the car shuddered quite a bit.
|
| Fast-forward 20 minutes, I'm sitting at the desk with the SC
| rep, and they say, "Yes there was a shudder, but that's
| normal." That was the 11th -- and final -- issue I had with
| that car. I traded it in for a Jaguar I-PACE shortly after
| and never looked back.
| shituonui wrote:
| PHEVs make more sense to me anyway. For the majority of trips
| they run off the battery which makes them just as good as a
| BEV, but they have no problems with range and they are a
| whole lot cheaper.
| tdhz77 wrote:
| Range isn't an issue for anybody who has owned an EV.
|
| Your behavior changed when you got an iPhone and you moved
| on with your life. Same thing here.
| smnscu wrote:
| I live in the UK and recently went EV-only (miss our Q7,
| perfect family car, etc). It's not the range I'm worried
| about, but the infinite flakiness of the various chargers
| I tried -- I'm not exaggerating when I say that about 50%
| of the time I fail to get the damn car to charge due to
| either the charger being offline or random glitches
| (could also be due to my fairly new Q4 e-tron). I am
| considering a Manchester-Isle of Skye road trip, and I'm
| not yet sure we'll actually go through with it.
|
| TL;DR less range anxiety, more "getting stranded because
| of unreliable chargers" anxiety
|
| PS: I should add, having 3 small-ish children is
| definitely the major factor here, were I alone I couldn't
| care less that I had to wait a few hours for trickle
| charging, might as well get some work done
|
| PPS: speaking of glitches, the Q4 e-tron lane keep assist
| is incredibly panicky and has constant mini freakouts
| whenever something strange happens to the road (e.g.
| lanes splitting on the motorway, passing parked cars on
| narrow roads, etc.) -- thankfully it's just annoying
| (slight jerk and vibration of the steering wheel) and not
| actually dangerous
| shituonui wrote:
| Range absolutely is an issue for people who have owned an
| EV. More importantly, it is an issue for people who
| _haven 't_ owned an EV. Claiming it isn't a problem
| because current EV owners are OK with it is preaching to
| the choir.
|
| But even if range really isn't a problem, a PHEV makes
| more sense to me because they are cheaper and make better
| use of our limited battery supply. A PHEV with 50 miles
| range will be just about as efficient as a BEV for the
| vast majority of driving, but it gets by with a much
| smaller battery pack. We have the battery supply to make
| nearly every new car a PHEV, but we could only make a
| small fraction of them BEVs.
| mulcahey wrote:
| I think the build quality of the 3/Y is superior to that of
| the S/X, at least the pre-refresh ones.
| mulcahey wrote:
| Commenting just to say that I've had a Model 3 since 2017 with
| zero issues. Anecdotally, I have tons of friends with Teslas and
| haven't heard a single nightmare service or build quality issue
| from any of them.
|
| Autopilot has been great -- probably over half my miles driven.
| Still a work-in-progress for city streets but FSD improvements
| have been pretty impressive from what I've observed on YouTube.
|
| Service has been pretty great too actually -- the appointment
| booking process I just went through to get new tires felt like
| the future since it's completely through the app. My only wish is
| that they had better loaner availability in CA. In TX the
| availability does seem better though since I moved here.
| bwanab wrote:
| My M3 since 2019. No issues at all. I wish all my other cars
| had been so good.
| eps wrote:
| Steering wheel is not a rectangle, so that alone is a plus.
| BluSyn wrote:
| I have an early build 2018 Model 3 Performance. I have
| experienced almost zero quality issues. I use Autopilot
| frequently and have experienced phantom braking maybe 5 times
| ever in 3+ years, and certainly isn't a deal-breaker. In fact
| it's improved dramatically since I first got the car.
|
| I feel like all I ever hear from outside the Tesla owner bubble
| is quality issues, complaints, weird problems I've never
| experienced. When I talk to other Tesla owners, they also are
| confused by this phenomena, because the vast majority I've talked
| to have the same experience as me; complete joy in the product,
| very few if any complaints at all. Especially relative to any
| other car I have owned or is available on the market today, I
| wouldn't recommend buying anything else.
|
| When people talk about annoying Tesla fanboys, this is the core
| of problem. On the one hand you have the public perception of
| Tesla cars, based on reviews like this one. Then you have actual
| experience from the *majority* of owners being the exact
| opposite. Tesla certainly has issues, but so does GM, Ford, and
| every other auto maker. Reviewers rarely shout these issues in
| the headlines. But with Tesla it's always different.
|
| What are we do to about this instead? Why is every review of
| Tesla highlighting the flaws, whereas every review of non-EV cars
| highlight the positives? How come Tesla owners don't get to write
| about their positive experiences without being called fanboys or
| shills?
| 11thEarlOfMar wrote:
| I owned a BMW 328i for 20 years. I loved that car dearly.
|
| I've now got 94,000 miles on a 2018 Model 3 long range. It's
| more fun than the BMW in every way. Handles better, accelerates
| faster, it's much quieter inside. The sound system is much
| better than the HKs in the BMW. It's more comfortable. I can
| drive for 4 hours straight with no discomfort.
|
| I don't have autopilot cuz my insurance guy wouldn't give me a
| discount if I bought it. Once he does, I'll add it.
|
| Regarding service: It's on the 3rd set of tires and I replaced
| the cracked windshield.
|
| That's it.
| mkeespiet wrote:
| This could have been my words! Tesla Model 3 owner here from
| the Netherlands
| ohgodplsno wrote:
| >have experienced phantom braking maybe 5 times
|
| I'm sure the drivers behind you were thrilled to learn it
| didn't bother you when your car decided to randomly brake.
|
| >Why is every review of Tesla highlighting the flaws, whereas
| every review of non-EV cars highlight the positives?
|
| Amongst other things, because other constructors aren't taking
| every opportunity to jerk themselves about how you're the
| pretended best in the world when they're just a mediocre
| constructor selling overpriced cars with bad build quality and
| lying on having level 5 autopilot at every occasion.
|
| > How come Tesla owners don't get to write about their positive
| experiences without being called fanboys or shills?
|
| Because ultimately, your feelings about the car gets
| overshadowed by the fact that Tesla is at the bottom of every
| single reliability study. They're worse than Jeeps, ffs. That's
| a new record.
| trulyme wrote:
| Well, maybe this will change when the reviewer doesn't find
| water in the trunk of the car after washing it? Or when their
| car doesn't brake for no reason? Some things are simply not
| acceptable for ordinary users who are accustomed to other
| companies' quality standards. Especially at comparable price
| point.
| Shank wrote:
| > I can't conclusively say that it's because of the missing
| radar, but I can say that our Model Y is bad at detecting
| obstructions ahead. Really, really bad. The big issue is false
| positives, a problem that has become known as "phantom braking"
| among Tesla owners. Basically, the car often gets confused and
| thinks there's an obstacle ahead and engages the automatic
| emergency braking system. You get an instant, unwanted and often
| strong application of the brakes.
|
| I could be wrong, but I didn't see any mention of taking their
| car in for repair or service. I'm a pretty big Tesla quality
| control skeptic -- seeing the after-delivery issues people have
| with panel gaps and other issues stops me from buying an
| otherwise exciting car. But the safety system being defective is
| something that would prompt me to take the car in for service
| immediately. Did they not do that?
|
| I honestly find this review quite frustrating. It seems like such
| a glaring flaw there would be an entire article dedicated to
| interviews with owners, a conversation transcript with Tesla
| service, and maybe even a note about how responsive Tesla is
| about fixing the problem. Instead, it seems like they found the
| issue, decided that it was acceptable enough to not get fixed,
| and published.
|
| I can see this being fair, but it doesn't strike me as the most
| honest unless every shipping car has the same problem.
| Jare wrote:
| The flaw was not unique to their car, or new at all. They
| describe how owners have already nicknamed the issue, so
|
| > unless every shipping car has the same problem
|
| Seems close enough.
| rconti wrote:
| I mean, "phantom braking" seems like a pretty obvious term
| for such behavior. Never had it on my laser cruise-equipped
| Golf R, nor on our radar-equipped Tesla, but it's immediately
| intuitive what they mean by it.
|
| I will say, the Tesla needed to have the "brake warning"
| moved to 'late' from 'medium' to not making annoying alerts
| from time to time, which is something my Golf did also, but
| even more rarely. I only had the Golf for about 30k miles
| because I somewhat-unexpectedly bought the Telsa 3, which is
| now up over 53k miles.
| tziki wrote:
| These (+ reliability concerns) are pretty much the reasons why I
| decided to wait until buying a new car. BMW has said they'll
| introduce actual self-driving features (as in, they'll assume
| legal liability) in 2022. While I'm on the fence on whether
| they'll actually deliver, if manufacturers like BMW are willing
| to commit to such timelines it gives me hope these features
| aren't too far away from being commonplace.
| pmcollins wrote:
| tldr: the author writes off the entire car because the _optional_
| self driving feature, which has like 10% uptake, doesn't perform
| well on side roads.
| djanogo wrote:
| He is talking about adaptive cruise control, which is a
| standard feature in 20k cars now(called ACC on Honda Civic or
| TSS 2 on Toyota Corolla).
|
| "A $70,000 car that can't even do cruise control is inexcusable
| and so, for now at least, I must recommend against the Model
| Y."
| tpmx wrote:
| My understanding is that the car is randomly braking even when
| the optional self driving feature isn't used because they
| attempted to replace a long-time tested radar-based crash
| avoidance safety system (mandatory in US+EU) with something
| based on cameras + computer vision because of ... reasons.
|
| Please correct me if I'm wrong.
| uniformlyrandom wrote:
| So this is how you get views and clicks these days - make a
| couple of factually incorrect statements, refuse to do any
| research, put a FUD clickbait in the title, and bingo - you are a
| "popular" "journalist".
| adam_arthur wrote:
| While it's pretty obvious that many manufacturers are coming out
| with their own EVs, there seems to be something of a bubble that
| isn't paying attention or totally ignores this.
|
| It will be interesting to see how the EV space evolves once there
| are mass amounts of competitor vehicles available/on the road.
|
| Specifically interesting to see how it affects valuations for
| these companies.
|
| I suspect Tesla's growth rate will slow considerably once there
| are comparably priced options from mainstream brands. E.g. F-150
| vs Cybertruck. Or even a car from Apple, though that's many years
| out.
|
| How obvious does the inevitability have to be to start denting
| valuations?
|
| There's still the self driving story, but it does not appear
| they've made material progress on the hardest 20% of it. Most
| brands will have autonomous highway driving without much issue,
| and that's where 80% of the value is anyway. And likely Google
| will beat them to the punch on the taxi side.
| dylan604 wrote:
| >E.g. F-150 vs Cybertruck.
|
| I'm in Texas, and there are stereotype supporting large number
| of truck owners around. Of the ones I've spoken to about
| Cybertruck, not one of them are interested in the body. People
| like how their Fords/Dodge/Chevy trucks look, so taking the
| design so far away from the norm just seems like an odd
| decision. Worse than the original Prius design.
| jefftk wrote:
| The original Prius design was very conventional:
| https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1st-Toyota-Prius.jpg
|
| The second generation is the well-known streamlined shape: ht
| tps://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2008_Toyota_Prius_(N...
|
| (I think the shape was probably not a mistake on Toyota's
| part. A lot of people were buying them partly because they
| wanted other people to know they had them, and the shape
| indicated this very clearly.)
| dylan604 wrote:
| Maybe I have the wrong car model. What was the one with the
| odd shape with the rear wheels covered, etc?
| xoxxala wrote:
| Honda Insight, probably.
| jefftk wrote:
| https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:HondaInsight.jpg
| dylan604 wrote:
| Man, it's a good thing I'm not a betting person. I would
| have bet it was the Prius. phew. Thanks for setting me
| straight
| castratikron wrote:
| Honda Insight?
| stefan_ wrote:
| You mean the truck bed was never more than a styling accent?
| Say it ain't so! All the people that need it have long
| figured out they would rather use a van.
| enchiridion wrote:
| That's what everyone says now. I think it'll be a different
| story once there are cyber trucks on the road for everyone to
| see.
| throwaway81523 wrote:
| I can't understand the deal with the electric F150 or almost
| any other modern pickup. They all have full sized 4 door
| interiors now, so as the truck has gotten bigger, the truck
| bed (the actually useful part that distinguishes a truck from
| a car) has gotten smaller. They are usually under 5.5 feet
| now, so there's many types of furniture you can't really move
| in them, which you could move in older, smaller pickups. Any
| idea? It kills the electric F150's attraction as far as I'm
| concerned. A 2-door model with those little vestigial jump
| seats behind the main seats and a longer bed would be a lot
| more useful.
| jcims wrote:
| Useful as a truck, yes, but now you have to buy a second
| vehicle to haul the family. Crew cab pickups are basically
| minivans in that they aren't great at anything but
| acceptable for alot of things. I have a 2018 F150 crew with
| the longer bed, I've towed trailers, hauled furniture and
| equipment for friends and family, taken it out for a nice
| meal and gotten it muddy as hell off road. If I'm
| intentional about it i can get low 20's mpg but rarely
| drive it more than 50 miles. I haven't commuted for work in
| four years.
| seoaeu wrote:
| I think there is a reasonable argument to make that (many)
| pickup trucks are purchased for aesthetics and the
| "usefulness" of them as trucks is largely irrelevant. As
| one friend pointed out, a work truck should be expected to
| be dirty and any truck that isn't dirty is just meant for
| show
| dylan604 wrote:
| That's why you're seeing things like the extended bed
| options of the new tailgate designs. Also, most people
| don't need to carry 6'+ items. They do need to take the
| ankle biters along and maybe haul some stuff in the back.
| The trade off seems to be accepted going by number of units
| sold. If you keep the 6' bed plus the comfy backseats as
| you've mentioned, it no longer fits in standard garages.
| throwaway81523 wrote:
| > hey do need to take the ankle biters along and maybe
| haul some stuff in the back.
|
| But, that is why they have SUV's and minivans I thought.
| It is only now sort of sinking in that pickups are no
| longer used much as work vehicles. Yes I agree about the
| excessive length keeping the crew cab and long bed. In
| fact I think the current F150 is already too big. So
| that's why I miss the old 2-door style with the long bed.
| I mean what is next, a Miata-like sportster with 3 rows
| of bench seats?
| [deleted]
| vb6sp6 wrote:
| I actively avoid being near Tesla cars when I'm driving
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| I had a near miss recently because the light was red at the
| intersection and I was pulling out of the u-turn lane. The
| Tesla driver in the lane closest to the interstate decided to
| floor it as soon as the light was green and came within 5 feet
| of hitting me.
| ARandomerDude wrote:
| That's not how virtue signals are supposed to work. You're
| supposed to be ashamed of the patriarchy that led you to buy
| your gas guzzler, and applaud the Tesla driver for zirs noble
| choice.
| willcipriano wrote:
| I make sure I don't have one in front of me.
| onion2k wrote:
| I'm not an expert but I think you should avoid all cars when
| you're driving.
| samfar90 wrote:
| Good one !
| stevev wrote:
| This makes me weary about considering the Tesla Cybertruck.
| Besides the author, the amount of topics or personal stories
| about the quality of Tesla vehicles looks alarming.
| erikpukinskis wrote:
| I think you mean leery, or maybe wary.
|
| Unless they actually made you tired.
| huijzer wrote:
| This is also another example of people promising an AI
| revolution, but in fact we end up with phantom breaking.
| rekoros wrote:
| We put 90K miles on our 2018 Model S D100
|
| It's had a couple issues, but nothing major - best car I've owned
| by far.
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