[HN Gopher] B.1.1.529
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       B.1.1.529
        
       Author : tosh
       Score  : 131 points
       Date   : 2021-11-25 19:37 UTC (3 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (twitter.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (twitter.com)
        
       | somewhereoutth wrote:
       | Where there is a partially vaccinated population, yet still
       | widespread infection, then there will be strong selection
       | pressure for vaccine immune escape (and indeed prior infection
       | immune escape).
       | 
       | It may not be this variant, but if such an escape variant
       | emerged, it would quickly spread - assuming the mutations don't
       | interfere too much with viability and transmission.
       | 
       | Vaccines, with other measures as necessary, should be used to
       | suppress a highly contagious virus to nearly zero (trigger
       | warning!!) to prevent this from happening.
        
       | toyg wrote:
       | Sucks to be the South African government: too poor to vaccinate
       | efficiently, shares data with rest of the world in "excellent"
       | meetings, gets immediately quarantined via airline bans. And then
       | we wonder why countries tend to be secretive...
       | 
       | Note I'm not saying we shouldn't trigger transfer bans (we
       | should), but there should be a compensation mechanism that goes
       | with them - like money or free vaccines. Otherwise poor countries
       | have no incentive to cooperate.
        
         | makomk wrote:
         | South Africa's big problem with vaccination right now seems to
         | be that they're running out of willing people to vaccinate -
         | they just postponed a bunch of vaccine deliveries because their
         | current stockpile is big enough already, and apparently a lot
         | of people there are reluctant to get the vaccine.
        
       | chaoskanzlerin wrote:
       | the speed within which B.1.1.529 became dominant is _really_
       | concerning
        
         | _Microft wrote:
         | If it is confirmed to spread like this chart makes it look
         | like, this is very bad.
         | 
         | https://nitter.net/jburnmurdoch/status/1463956686075580421
        
         | bertil wrote:
         | This is still a handful of cases (10 total, the only comparison
         | curb I've seen is on three cases in Botswana; there could be
         | one on six other cases in South Africa). We'll know more soon,
         | and hopefully, local health authorities will contain anything
         | worrisome, but this is not yet like Delta with thousands of
         | cases emerging overnight in some countries.
        
           | threeseed wrote:
           | Not really comparable to Delta.
           | 
           | Given that so much of the world is vaccinated.
        
         | zx76 wrote:
         | Yes, I've also been really surprised by this. The fact that
         | South African wastewater coronavirus detection is spiking
         | dramatically [1] makes me wonder if this variant could be a
         | genuine step up from the current status quo.
         | 
         | [1] https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2021-11-25-the-
         | covid...
        
         | jsnell wrote:
         | It's easy for a variant to become dominant just by random
         | chance if the prevalence is low. That's the case here. Alpha
         | and Delta were quite different, they took over when the case
         | counts were high, so it was basically impossible for founder
         | effects to be the reason.
         | 
         | So in this case we need to rely much more on the circumstantial
         | evidence (which admittedly seems pretty solid on a first skim).
        
       | _Microft wrote:
       | On Nitter, no Twitter account required:
       | https://nitter.net/chrischirp/status/1463885593461628928 (link to
       | end of thread, so you can scroll up over the broken part of the
       | thread)
       | 
       | On Threadreader:
       | https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1463885539619311616.html (full
       | thread)
        
         | black_puppydog wrote:
         | Nitter ftw. I've noticed I barely every open threadreader now.
        
         | boringg wrote:
         | Oh man nitter is so much better - twitter is just full of
         | ad/promoted content. Never knew about nitter.
        
           | grawlinson wrote:
           | I'd love a browser extension that automatically redirects all
           | twitter URLs to the nitter equivalent.
        
       | guilhas wrote:
       | What does this means? Now we need booster 4? Or don't need
       | booster 3? Or nothing matters anymore?...
        
         | bertil wrote:
         | So far, not much: it appears that there are very few cases
         | confirmed (10 so far). If all those people isolate and don't
         | contaminate anyone, that could be the end of it. But one of
         | them just flew on an intercontinental flight, so... yeah,
         | things might not be contained.
         | 
         | If even one of them transmit to someone else, who transmit is
         | themselves... this could spread like the Delta variant. There
         | has not been any clinical test on the effectiveness of
         | vaccines, of course; however, with so many mutations, in
         | particular the mutations on the parts that code the spike
         | protein, the vaccines that have proven effective so far (which
         | focus on that spike) are likely to be far less effective. It's
         | likely we would develop new vaccines, but that presents more
         | risk, so would need more tests, etc. Lockdowns are likely in
         | the meantime.
        
           | quotemstr wrote:
           | > it appears that there are very few cases confirmed (10 so
           | far). If all those people isolate and don't contaminate
           | anyone, that could be the end of it.
           | 
           | What makes you think that a set of mutations like this can
           | evolve only once? Even if _this particular lineage_ of COVID
           | goes extinct, its existence demonstrates that the virus is
           | responding to selection pressure in the way you 'd expect any
           | organism to respond under conditions of natural selection. If
           | evolution can pull of B.1.1.529 once, it can do so again and
           | again.
        
         | gmuslera wrote:
         | Boosters of the same vaccine will make the effect of a vaccine
         | to last longer, if its protection diminishes with time. Other
         | variants are present too, so regardless if this particular
         | variant spreads to your zone or not, it probably won't harm.
         | 
         | The problem if is this variant is different enough to the
         | original variant for the vaccine to be effective against it or
         | no.
        
           | 9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote:
           | From the Prof.:
           | 
           | "We do know that B.1.529 has many more mutations than other
           | variants _and_ has mutations seen in other variants that are
           | associated with BOTH higher transmissibility AND immune
           | escape."
        
         | bawolff wrote:
         | Its a developing situation. What exactly it means isn't clear
         | yet. Booster 3 is almost certainly still helpful but how
         | helpful against this strain requires more science. Booster 4
         | (at least in the near term) would continue to probably do
         | nothing further because its not a simple matter of more
         | boosters at the same time equal more protection. That's just
         | not how it works.
         | 
         | People seem to want to treat covid as if its a school
         | assignment; as if there is a teacher giving you harder and
         | harder homework in an arbitrary fashion who knows what is going
         | to happen and you can ask them. Its not - this is the real
         | world. Answers come when people test out theories and discover
         | what's what. Its a process, and it takes time. What the article
         | is saying basically is that there is a lot of uncertainty but
         | what we do know so far is concerning.
        
         | quotemstr wrote:
         | Depending on who you listen to, well, you might need boosters
         | every few months for the rest of your life. There's concern in
         | some circles that because the vaccine trains your body to
         | respond strongly to one specific version of one specific part
         | of COVID, it permanently reduces your body's ability to learn
         | how to counter different parts of other versions of COVID ---
         | meaning that once you start taking boosters, you'll need them
         | forever. It's unclear how much of a point this camp has.
        
       | usedtoprog wrote:
       | Boring. Another overly-dramatic message from the UK's self-
       | proclaimed "Independent SAGE" - a left-wing, pro-restriction,
       | pro-lockdown group of health advisers.
        
         | usedtoprog wrote:
         | Time to get on with enjoying your life because this never ends.
        
       | Y_Y wrote:
       | Please fix the title and mention that this refers to a new COVID
       | variant
        
         | _Microft wrote:
         | Names looking similar to the one of this variant have been
         | mentioned on the news already, so it might not be completely
         | surprising for some people that this is about SARS-Cov2.
         | 
         | The nomenclature is called PANGO by the way. It is named after
         | the software tool "Phylogenetic Assignment of Named Global
         | Outbreak Lineages" (PANGOLIN) which is used to classify
         | lineages of SARS-Cov2.
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylogenetic_Assignment_of_Nam...
         | 
         | https://cov-lineages.org/
        
           | quesera wrote:
           | On first read, I thought someone had revived the B
           | programming language (predecessor to C), and started their
           | pre-2.0 versioning at 1.1.
           | 
           | FWIW.
        
       | djantje wrote:
       | The pull request https://github.com/cov-lineages/pango-
       | designation/issues/343
        
       | makeworld wrote:
       | A deleted Tweet from her has broken the thread. The full version
       | can be viewed easily at
       | https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1463885539619311616.html
        
       | rich_sasha wrote:
       | So, basically, another Covid variant, but much badder than Delta?
       | 
       | I'm a bit fed up with coronaviruses tbh.
        
         | geraldcombs wrote:
         | The coronaviruses don't appear to be fed up with us,
         | unfortunately.
        
         | throwamon wrote:
         | Honestly I'm more fed up with people who can't seem to be able
         | to sit quietly in their homes for two weeks.
        
           | orra wrote:
           | "Two weeks" is quite the litotes. COVID-19 has been around
           | /two years/.
        
             | throwamon wrote:
             | Exactly! Imagine how many diseases we would have eradicated
             | if we all just stayed at home for _that_ long!
             | 
             | Not just diseases, by the way - as Pascal would have said,
             | "All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to
             | sit quietly in a room alone."
        
               | orra wrote:
               | Ah, I hadn't grasped your irony. I heard it suggested
               | somewhat seriously recently, which miffed me a bit.
               | Lockdowns were probably the least awful option in early
               | 2020, but as you know it doesn't make them a great idea
               | now.
        
               | Pyramus wrote:
               | My understanding is that parent was not joking. It's a
               | great thought experiment though, and let's not forget
               | that humanity did eradicate a number of diseases.
        
         | vletal wrote:
         | Hopefully not _worse_. The current assumption seems to be that
         | it could be different enough to avoid existing immunity gained
         | against previous strains.
        
           | op00to wrote:
           | Remember the spike needs to bind to the ACE receptor which is
           | what vaccines target, so if it escapes vaccines, it probably
           | isn't going to be as easily infectious. Maybe.
        
             | michaelmrose wrote:
             | If that was true in this scenario why would it have gained
             | so much victim market share in South Africa so much quicker
             | than Delta did?
        
               | wk_end wrote:
               | SA is very undervaccinated (less than 25% per the link)
               | so it's probably too early to say either way.
        
             | vletal wrote:
             | Your answer seems to assume that the distribution of spike
             | proteins which binds to the ACE is very close to the one
             | for which we obtain immunity by getting vaccinated.
             | 
             | Yet we can already see that Delta binds better than the
             | early strains and the efficacy of existing vaccines against
             | it is like 60%, which contradict that. Does it make sense?
        
               | ciphol wrote:
               | Vaccine efficacy decays with time. If you've had a 3rd
               | vaccine recently, it will be much more than 60%
               | effective.
        
         | Yuioup wrote:
         | We all are.
        
       | thenewnormal wrote:
       | I particularly liked how the mutations were described as
       | "horrific". How are they? Do they have terrible claws and sharp
       | pointy teeth?
        
         | _Microft wrote:
         | As many as a horrific car crash has.
        
       | haunter wrote:
       | So probably new shots every 4-5 months and the end game will be a
       | yearly shot like with the seasonal influenza?
       | 
       | Got my 3rd shot a month ago but I can see we will get a new one
       | in the spring. Rinse and repeat
        
         | the8472 wrote:
         | There are several effective anti-virals in the approval
         | pipeline. Vaccines plus the antivirals combined will hopefully
         | crater severe cases and this will become just another cold
         | virus.
        
         | bingohbangoh wrote:
         | hell of a yearly shot
        
           | threeseed wrote:
           | Not really. As far as vaccines go they look to be very safe
           | and effective.
        
         | bawolff wrote:
         | There's really no evidence to come to that conclusion at this
         | time.
        
           | DeusExMachina wrote:
           | Israel is already at the fourth shot. Not evidence, but
           | definitely grants the suspicion.
        
             | belltaco wrote:
             | Source?
        
               | angelzen wrote:
               | Nov 24, 2021 "Health minister suggests fourth vaccine
               | dose amid rising fears of fifth COVID wave"
               | 
               | https://www.timesofisrael.com/health-minister-suggests-
               | fourt...
        
         | 9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote:
         | Something along those lines is what the very early medical
         | projections were, yes, as I recall.
        
       | bajdn wrote:
       | Take your retarded fascist fear mongering branch covidian
       | propaganda the fuck out of here.
       | 
       | Fucking fascists.
        
       | bajdn wrote:
       | All covidians should be shot dead.
       | 
       | Fuck these terrorist pieces of shit.
        
       | charcircuit wrote:
       | Why can't they come up with a better name like security
       | vulnerabilities have nowadays?
        
       | bajdn wrote:
       | Your God fauci tortures puppies and throws acid on monkey brains.
       | 
       | Oh, he also directly funded the creation of covid cause he's a
       | bioterrorist piece of shit.
       | 
       | You all are such nice people.
        
       | c7DJTLrn wrote:
       | We need to just get on with it. We can't just keep locking down
       | and banning travel. For the majority of us the virus poses no
       | danger.
        
         | aaomidi wrote:
         | Source of this claim with the new variant?
        
           | c7DJTLrn wrote:
           | This number of mutations isn't enough to completely change
           | the mechanics of the virus. It's still the same thing in
           | different clothing which might be enough to pass through the
           | vaccine firewall, but the lethality won't be much different.
           | I don't have to be a biologist to apply basic logic.
        
             | eudoxus wrote:
             | well at least you're _not_ making sweeping generalizations
             | with no references /citations/sources on a field of
             | research you admittedly aren't a part of...
        
             | meepmorp wrote:
             | > I don't have to be a biologist to apply basic logic.
             | 
             | Biology doesn't really work like that. The number of rules
             | is vastly smaller than the number of exceptions to them.
        
             | kashunstva wrote:
             | > This number of mutations isn't enough to completely
             | change the mechanics of the virus.
             | 
             | Maybe. Maybe not. The majority of the mutations in the
             | B.1.1.529 genome are expressed as changes in the spike
             | proteins but others are not and remain to be better
             | understood. It is too early to tell what effects those
             | remaining mutations will have on the lethality of this
             | variant. If those mutations result in more efficient
             | intracellular replication or other changes in intracellular
             | viral life-cycle efficiency, then the morbidity and
             | mortality may be greater, independent of immunologic
             | escape.
        
             | dragonwriter wrote:
             | > This number of mutations isn't enough to completely
             | change the mechanics of the virus.
             | 
             | One mutation can be enough, if its the right mutation.
             | 
             | > I don't have to be a biologist to apply basic logic.
             | 
             | Basic logic only helps if you start with accurate premises,
             | which having an understanding of the relevant biology helps
             | a lot with. Otherwise, you end up with GIGO.
        
         | sofixa wrote:
         | > For the majority of us the virus poses no danger.
         | 
         | It does if emergency services and ICUs are at capacity and
         | nobody can get treated for anything or medical personnel is so
         | overworked they make mistakes or burn out.
        
       | mercy_dude wrote:
       | I travelled in UK and it seems you do have to do an antigen tests
       | when you get in as a traveller. Is antigen test able to detect
       | this variant?
        
         | _Wintermute wrote:
         | It can detect it as a positive result, it can't distinguish
         | between variants.
        
       | jl6 wrote:
       | Is there any reason to believe that higher infectivity should
       | correlate with lower lethality? i.e. the virus which keeps its
       | host alive the longest has greatest opportunity to replicate and
       | spread?
        
         | giarc wrote:
         | Yes, there's kind of a triad of attributes that affects a virus
         | and it's ability to cause a pandemic. Virulence (how sick
         | people become), transmissibility (how easy does it spread),
         | lethality (can it kill at high rate).
         | 
         | -higher virulence causes people to stay at home more, and less
         | spread in community
         | 
         | -higher transmissibility means more spread person to person
         | 
         | -high lethality means people die faster and not spread as fast
         | 
         | SARS and MERS before SARS-COV2(COVID) all had high lethality
         | and therefore those that were infected didn't get a chance to
         | transmit to others that well, and likely helped slow the
         | spread. COVID seems to have a good balance between the three.
         | 
         | The above is a big simplification, but the general idea sticks.
        
           | zarzavat wrote:
           | Your model is missing one big variable and that is latency,
           | the time difference between when people are most contagious
           | and when they are symptomatic.
           | 
           | SARS-1 had low latency, and so people tended to become
           | contagious and symptomatic at around the same time, reducing
           | transmission. Whereas SARS-2 has a high latency which helps
           | it to spread while people are unaware they even have it. This
           | also insulates SARS-2 from selective pressure to reduce its
           | virulence.
        
           | quotemstr wrote:
           | Keep in mind that imperfect vaccination shifts this triad in
           | the direction of higher sustainable lethality:
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek's_disease
           | 
           | In both the natural and leaky-vaccine scenarios, the virus
           | evolves towards an ecological equilibrium, but in the leaky-
           | vaccine scenario, that equilibrium is shifted in the
           | direction of greater lethality. See the linked article: as a
           | direct consequence of mass vaccination of chickens, Marek's
           | diseased evolved from a minor illness into a highly-virulent,
           | highly-transmissible disease that causes 100% lethal cancer
           | in chickens unless the chicks are vaccinated before they
           | hatch from their eggs.
        
             | jl6 wrote:
             | What do you think about this article, by the author of the
             | Marek's disease study, that criticizes extrapolating from
             | the chicken scenario to the covid scenario?:
             | 
             | https://theconversation.com/amp/vaccines-could-affect-how-
             | th...
        
           | Pyramus wrote:
           | It should be noted that for Sars-Cov-2 specifically (i.e.
           | given a virus that has the properties of Sars-Cov-2 already)
           | lethality will likely be a neutral factor for the evolution
           | going forward. The reason being that viral titres peak around
           | day 2 in a window of 1-5 days, whereas it takes at lot longer
           | to die from Covid. In other words there is same sort of cap
           | where lethality prevents transmission, but Sars-Cov-2 is
           | nowhere near it.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | dvt wrote:
       | I'm fully bracing for downvotes, but I really think that having
       | professional immunologists/scientists/etc. interacting directly
       | with Twitter masses off of fresh-off-the-presses data (weak data,
       | at that) is a mistake. For a few reasons: (a) it creates an
       | environment where everyone wants to "break the news" first, even
       | if it's full of hot takes, incorrect, or incendiary. This isn't a
       | big deal when breaking who the Kardashians are dating, but it's
       | very dangerous when talking about public health policy. And (b),
       | there's zero accountability. If this entire thread ends up being
       | wrong -- as so many of these Twitter hot takes have been proven
       | to be wrong from last year -- no one cares. It's memory holed,
       | and the good professor is just happy for the 15-minute limelight
       | _today_ , without worrying about what happens _tomorrow_.
       | 
       | I know this is not a particularly popular opinion, but I think we
       | have things like peer review, the three sigma rule of thumb, and
       | so on, for good reason. It's disappointing to see scientists spew
       | out an entire thread and then cap it off with "just my opinion,
       | so who knows" -- just as dishonest as crypto pumpers and their
       | "not financial advice" disclaimers. Give me a break.
       | 
       | I'm happy you got your Twitter engagement though, that's what
       | it's all about.
        
         | bertil wrote:
         | > there's zero accountability. If this entire thread ends up
         | being wrong -- as so many of these Twitter hot takes have been
         | proven to be wrong from last year -- no one cares.
         | 
         | It is true in many cases, but I feel like anyone who has
         | contributed _as an expert in epidemiology_ has a good track
         | record on correcting their statements. Did I miss anything
         | worrisome?
        
           | orra wrote:
           | Eh, Indy SAGE (of which the author is a member) can be quite
           | cranky. Just because the UK Government are terrible and SAGE
           | advise the UK Government doesn't intrinsically make Indy SAGE
           | any good.
           | 
           | Specifically, Indy SAGE are eternal doom-mongers. Most of
           | what they say is completely out of proportion in this
           | vaccines era of COVID.
           | 
           | They also scream "close the borders" _all_ _the_ _damn_
           | _time_. This is (a) generally pointless when COVID is
           | everywhere, and moreover the UK is doing worse than many
           | countries. Also, (b), it helps perpetuate the UK's dangerous
           | anti migrant rhetoric. Just yesterday people drowned in the
           | English Channel as a result of the UK's hostility to
           | refugees, and a bunch of xenophobic politicians feigned
           | horror.
        
           | dvt wrote:
           | > feel like anyone who has contributed _as an expert in
           | epidemiology_ has a good track record on correcting their
           | statements
           | 
           | I think this feeling would be misguided:
           | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7447267/ --
           | retractions have been basically non-existent. On the
           | scientist _or_ the journalist side.
        
             | bertil wrote:
             | The only reference to a forecast in that article is a
             | "chair of the department of medical ethics", not an
             | epidemiologist, on a television program, not a tweet that
             | they can comment.
        
             | threeseed wrote:
             | The primary author seems to have a lot of incorrect
             | positions though:
             | 
             | "Ioannidis estimated that deaths in the U.S. from COVID-19
             | could potentially be as low as 10,000--or they could
             | approach levels not seen since the flu pandemic of 1918"
             | 
             | "writing to President Trump of his concerns about the lack
             | of evidence regarding the efficacy of lockdowns"
             | 
             | And just like with the Y2K bug one of the issues with takes
             | like this is that it ignores all of the work that people
             | did to prevent it becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. If
             | there were no vaccines, lockdowns or similar health
             | measures maybe the predictions would have been accurate.
             | 
             | https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-ioannidis-
             | aff...
        
           | disabled wrote:
           | There are scammer epidemiologists. Dr. Eric Fiegl-Ding is one
           | of them who also has a Twitter profile.
           | 
           | A good write up on him is here:
           | https://www.thedailybeast.com/coronavirus-alarmist-eric-
           | feig...
        
           | sbuttgereit wrote:
           | This assumes that a correction or retraction will necessarily
           | spread with the same dynamics of the original statement. The
           | distribution network, and the motivations of other actors
           | spreading the information, is more important the person
           | making the original statement. In this case, much of Twitter
           | is the appeal to emotional responses, not rational ones. And
           | as a medium for information conveyance is just terrible (16
           | tweets for something like this is evidence of that fact).
           | Given that, I expect that any real value to the message here
           | will be completely lost, as would that of any correction or
           | retraction, because those amplifying the message will be
           | doing so on the basis of their own prior sentiments on
           | response to the diseases.
           | 
           | All considered I feel the point of the original comment.
        
         | SavantIdiot wrote:
         | That's a tough one. I had a similar reaction: this is science,
         | not tabloid, why are we mixing the two? On the other hand,
         | Twitter is a weird-ass mechanism that can disseminate all sorts
         | of information instantly. On the third hand, information is not
         | knowledge, they are two very different things: Knowledge is
         | power, Information seems to cause chaos.
         | 
         | I'd prefer we stick to the research paper format for stuff like
         | this where there is a distinct space for results, and a
         | distinct space for conclusions. Let's make knowledge out of the
         | information first.
        
         | coffeefirst wrote:
         | You're not wrong. On the one hand it's great to have a public
         | forum for science, on the other I've learned I can't vet it at
         | all, so I should wait until they get farther along before
         | reacting at all. After all, Twitter has predicted 45 of the
         | last 2 consequential variants.
         | 
         | As an individual that's fine. As a society, we've got you and
         | me who've learned to hold back, friends and alarmists who react
         | to every signal to their own detriment and risk drowning out
         | the real message, and we've got disillusioned trolls who
         | cherry-pick the noise to "prove" scientists aren't trustworthy.
         | 
         | I don't know if it's possible to have the open conversation
         | while cooling off the side effects.
        
         | _Wintermute wrote:
         | This is more for other scientists, science-twitter is quite a
         | big thing and often how scientists communicate new results,
         | pre-prints, job-postings etc. It's just sad that the media and
         | lay-people are ruining one of the only positives twitter
         | provides.
        
         | Iolaum wrote:
         | On the other hand, professional immunologists/scientists/etc on
         | twitter have posted stuff on Twitter that governments wanted to
         | suppress or just didn't care enough to act on.
         | 
         | For example look The Seattle Flu Study Story at
         | https://stratechery.com/2020/zero-trust-information/
        
           | littlestymaar wrote:
           | Yes but in this case the poster is commenting on a public
           | statement from the South African government so we're
           | typically not in the situation you're talking about.
        
         | makomk wrote:
         | This pretty much concurs with the current BBC reporting, just
         | with more graphs: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59418127
         | It's honestly better than I'd expect from any of the usual
         | American publications these days as well.
        
           | keketi wrote:
           | ...and the UK just banned all flights from South Africa,
           | Namibia, Zimbabwe, Botswana, Lesotho and Eswatini:
           | https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-59424269
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | ithkuil wrote:
             | TIL Swaziland got renamed Eswatini in 2018
        
         | threeseed wrote:
         | I think the history of COVID disagrees with this.
         | 
         | If the scientist is completely wrong then the impact is that
         | governments and the public took precautions that were
         | unnecessary. But most of those impacts e.g. banning visitors
         | from hot-spots, stronger health measures e.g. mask-wearing come
         | with limited downsides and potentially huge upsides i.e. saving
         | lives.
         | 
         | So it seems like that scientists should do more to engage with
         | the public and communicate any potential threats as clearly and
         | early as possible.
        
           | AndrewBissell wrote:
           | "limited downsides"
           | 
           | https://news.yahoo.com/remote-learning-led-to-
           | catastrophic-l...
           | 
           | https://www.wfp.org/stories/hunger-pandemic-food-security-
           | re...
           | 
           | https://gazette.com/business/nearly-40-of-u-s-small-
           | business... https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-
           | brief/the-imp...
        
             | threeseed wrote:
             | That is what happens when you don't act early.
             | 
             | You end up with aggressive, last-resort measures like
             | extended lockdowns.
             | 
             | Hence my point that there is minimal downside to being
             | overly cautious when you first hear about new variants.
        
               | AndrewBissell wrote:
               | I call this the "No True Lockdown" argument. If they fail
               | to indefinitely prevent significant outbreaks (and in
               | nearly every case they have), well, it just means they
               | weren't implemented soon enough. Even if they drag on for
               | weeks and months with zero cases, only to have an
               | outbreak at the slightest loosening of restrictions. I
               | guess the idea is that if the entire world did this at
               | once the virus would disappear? Completely unworkable,
               | and almost surely false, given the existence of animal
               | reservoirs.
               | 
               | Your entire framing of these policy choices as inevitable
               | and the only option is baseless. Australia and New
               | Zealand used to be held up as the shining lights of "just
               | act fast enough and you can avoid the need for any
               | sustained restrictions" and now we are seeing just how
               | well kicking the can in that way actually works, and the
               | lengths that must be gone to keep kicking it.
        
               | somewhereoutth wrote:
               | Working in China.
        
         | lvs wrote:
         | Agree, but I would widen this critique quite far into Twitter
         | and social media in general. The motivation to promulgate
         | information, factual or otherwise, on social media is
         | attention-seeking, not truth-seeking. The method is sticky
         | because it rewards attention-seeking with the desired
         | attention, thereby optimizing on the kind of information,
         | factual or not, that gains attention.
         | 
         | However, had the link been one of the many news articles on
         | this topic rather than a tweetbarf, I think this comment would
         | not be at the top, and we'd be talking about the virus instead.
        
         | disabled wrote:
         | A good read on this is "Contrarian Doctors: The Pandemic is
         | Over, Again".
         | 
         | See: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-pandemic-is-over-
         | again/
         | 
         | I knew that the pandemic was far from over with in the US even
         | with the mass vaccination campaign being declared mostly a
         | success this summer.
         | 
         | On a worldwide scale, given the rates plus the raw numbers in
         | locales plus mobility within borders along with people crossing
         | borders...it simply did not add up.
         | 
         | Plus, Americans are a very polarized group of people. (I say
         | this as an American citizen living abroad who is also
         | culturally American and has lived there the vast majority of
         | her life.). Some counties in the United States had 25-30%
         | vaccination rates at best right before the fall season. (I have
         | not recently checked.)
         | 
         | But, I do recall reading that the US created a model (which of
         | course is frequently being updated) for coronavirus spike
         | protein mutations that would predict when the virus was
         | statistically likely to evolve in such a way. I think it was a
         | DARPA funded program or something like that. So, it's not like
         | this new "big news" came out of nowhere.
         | 
         | But, what is going on in the ascribed South African province in
         | the above linked Tweet is unlikely to just be random
         | coincidence. First, it is South Africa's most populated
         | province at around 15 million people. Second, it's nearly
         | summer in South Africa and it's been hot there. Overall, we
         | need people to investigate and for people to stop transmitting
         | things that are not covered well and balanced, making many of
         | us susceptible to confirmation bias.
         | 
         | But, stopping virus transmission altogether should have been
         | our goal worldwide. Very few countries have succeeded. Yes, the
         | WHO failed but so did the vast majority of the world's
         | countries.
         | 
         | See: Covid pandemic was preventable, says WHO-commissioned
         | report: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/12/covid-
         | pandemic...
        
         | DwnVoteHoneyPot wrote:
         | I think twitter hot takes are fine. That's what twitter is for.
         | It's just a discussion, a way to test ideas.
         | 
         | The problem is people considering twitter comments as facts and
         | basing their medical decisions off of them.
        
         | the8472 wrote:
         | > This isn't a big deal when breaking who the Kardashians are
         | dating, but it's very dangerous when talking about public
         | health policy.
         | 
         | https://twitter.com/ungeneva/status/1244661916535930886
         | https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1234871709091667969
         | 
         | Also remember, it's not airborne and sanitizing surfaces is all
         | it takes.
        
           | Pyramus wrote:
           | I'm not sure I understand - that was the official position at
           | the time, not a 'hot take' on Twitter. The problem with
           | experts getting it wrong is experts getting it wrong, not the
           | unfiltered fire hose that is Twitter.
           | 
           | Edit: To clarify this is not a judgement on experts getting
           | things wrong. Experts can't know everything.
        
         | stefan_ wrote:
         | Is it? What's the danger? Now that B.1.1.529 is out there, what
         | changes for you? The entire western world already pretends
         | Covid is over.
         | 
         | Like, there is no _call to action_ here. No one is looking to
         | deceive you into buying an ape for the good of the arts.
        
           | jazzyjackson wrote:
           | sorry off topic, but what in the world is your last idiom
           | there referring to? is there something i don't know about art
           | grants and the underground primate market?
           | 
           | (while i'm asking, why is everything in the future so heavy?)
        
             | camjw wrote:
             | It's a reference to Bored Ape Yacht Club a popular - at
             | least with Crypto people - series of NFTs. If you use
             | Twitter and follow any Crypto people/VCs you might have
             | seen them as profile pictures. One of these sold for $200k.
             | It's a JPEG :)
        
             | Someone wrote:
             | Probably https://boredapeyachtclub.com/#/ (more info at
             | https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/bayc-
             | bored...)
        
         | boringg wrote:
         | Tough call here. If it ramps up the pressure to stop this
         | before it spreads to quickly thats a win - the risk is if it
         | isn't as dangerous and the new rules cause backlash amongst the
         | fatigue.
         | 
         | Also putting that information out into twitter will get to the
         | right people and the wrong people (i.e. people who can
         | understand whats she's saying and people who aren't) and then
         | the information gets used in multiple different ways.
         | 
         | Yes hot takes are risky.
        
         | jiggawatts wrote:
         | I think you'll find it's a popular opion, but not one you'll
         | find espoused much on Twitter. I like to think you and people
         | like me are the "silent majority".
         | 
         | While it's fascinating to see this stuff out in Public, it's
         | the same kind of fascination I had when Trump started diplomacy
         | via Twitter, or when I saw my neighbours have a shouted
         | domestic argument on their front lawn...
        
         | basisword wrote:
         | I'm not sure why people are posting Twitter threads but this is
         | headline news, at least in the UK, and that news doesn't seem
         | to stem from this thread. The UK has also added several
         | southern African customers to the travel red list again and
         | they aren't doing that late in the evening based on a random
         | Twitter thread.
        
       | jansan wrote:
       | I recently found this video that shows and comments the worldwide
       | evolement of variants over time. It is astonishing just how
       | dominant Delta has become.
       | 
       | To me this was more entertaining than a marble race.
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig_FjVVHS00
        
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