[HN Gopher] What Peng Shuai reveals about one-party rule
___________________________________________________________________
What Peng Shuai reveals about one-party rule
Author : JumpCrisscross
Score : 209 points
Date : 2021-11-25 16:51 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.economist.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.economist.com)
| 1cvmask wrote:
| An interesting different narrative.
|
| https://www.mintpressnews.com/olympolitik-fake-peng-shuai-sc...
| mach1ne wrote:
| Without commenting on the validity of the article, it is true
| that the data in circulation about China in the West is highly
| distorted due to barriers in language, culture and the
| internet.
|
| While this does not mean that China would necessarily be any
| less "evil" than it seems to be, details can rarely be trusted.
| 1cvmask wrote:
| Well we always find out the mainstream news coverage is
| either fake, distorted or falsehoods by omission post-mortem
| (pun intended). Reminds me of Brezinski setting up the
| "Afghan trap" for the Soviets (his own words) and then the
| Carter administration boycotting the Moscow Olympics. History
| and the boycotting play just seems to rhyme awfully well:
|
| Our hope instead was to prolong the war, keeping the Soviets
| bogged down in Afghanistan. Zbigniew Brzezinski is quite open
| about this. In the same 1997 interview, he speaks of "drawing
| the Russians into the Afghan trap." He claims: "The day that
| the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to
| President Carter: 'We now have the opportunity of giving to
| the USSR its Vietnam War.'"
|
| https://www.ellsworthamerican.com/opinions/commentary/commen.
| ..
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Summer_Olympics_boycott
|
| https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereksaul/2021/11/24/heres-
| the-...
| 9tailedkitsune wrote:
| Do you think it's distorted because of that, or because of
| America's agenda against China itself? Seems like an easy and
| convenient way to sow distrust and hate, no?
|
| On the other hand, if what is reported is true, then more
| power to her.
| darimo wrote:
| Hahaha
|
| A cursory read through the Mint Press wiki page reveals it's an
| affiliate channel from Russia Today.
|
| Also nice section around the opacity of their funding and
| revenue model.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MintPress_News
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| The media's reporting on Peng Shuai's case is... let's say,
| incomplete. For a better picture, one should read her original
| Weibo post. Here is a translation:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/tennis/comments/qmn69a/full_transla...
|
| I've checked this translation and I agree with most of it.
| guscost wrote:
| Thank you for the source.
| boomskats wrote:
| What's your opinion on this alternative translation posted a
| couple of days ago?
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/tennis/comments/qzhxao/translation_...
|
| It attempts to highlight a few cultural nuances missing from
| the original translation. However it hasn't had any native
| speakers weigh in on it on r/tennis.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| It's commendable that he tried adding more notes but on the
| whole I don't find it more useful to English speakers than
| the version I linked. The version you linked also has some
| things I disagree with:
|
| I disagree with note 4, claiming that that paragraph is her
| evidence for non-consensual relationship. My reading of that
| paragraph (about 10 years ago, the _previous_ time she had an
| affair) is that that was consensual, or at least not
| unconsensual. My reading is that at the time she met him for
| the 2nd time, she was still heartbroken at him for having
| broken up 10 years ago.
|
| The translation you linked to also misses an important note
| on the phrase "Bi Wo He Ni Fa Sheng Guan Xi ". Presumably the
| "rape allegation" narrative is based on this phrase. The
| problem however is that Bi could mean either "to pressure
| [to have sex]" or "to force [to have sex]"; its meaning is
| ambiguous. It could be something like "my parents forced me
| to become doctor" (they didn't literally force, they nagged
| until you agree).
|
| There is no doubt that Zhao is a manipulative jerk and that
| he engaged in unacceptable questionable acts. But given the
| ambiguity of this phrase, plus the fact that the rest of the
| text is not focused on that single even, makes some wonder
| whether this is even a rape allegation at all. The rest of
| the text say things like "I reopened my love for you", "we
| are so compatible", "we could talk endlessly". Some believe
| that this is more like her venting that he played with her
| feelings and then dumped her.
| temp8964 wrote:
| The "'rape allegation' narrative" is your imagination. Most
| news reports did not use the word "rape". "sexual assault"
| is commonly used in reporting this case. The Economist does
| not use rape either. "coercive sexual relationship"
| appeared in the first sentence. Stop making strawman
| attack.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| zozbot234 wrote:
| She clearly says that she was in tears and panicking when
| he pressured her for sex the second time. There's very
| little ambiguity there: this is a serious allegation of
| lack of true consent, not just emotional venting.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| I respect your interpretation. I am just saying that
| there are indeed people out there who don't agree. Of
| course you are free to disagree with them. Being pro-
| democratic, we respect each others' differences in
| opinion.
| mthoms wrote:
| >I respect your interpretation
|
| What's _your_ interpretation of her panicked crying? You
| just spent 4 paragraphs outlining how you think her
| allegation is ambiguous. Now you 're attempting to
| outright dodge a perfectly valid counterpoint.
| altern2 wrote:
| The whole story is bs. She took some time of from social media
| after ending a complicated relationship and posting something
| she really shouldn't have.
|
| Who had the right to declare her missing in the first place?
| Which meetings didn't she show up for? Which family members
| couldn't contact her?
|
| Now that they've decided that she was missing the anti-china
| crowd are in the very convenient situation where they can
| discard everything they don't like.
|
| She makes a statement to Chinese news? Fake. Forced. Doesn't
| sound right.
|
| She posts pictures on wechat? Staged, deep-fake, oh and is that
| a Winnie the Pooh picture in the background? Clearly a cry for
| help!
|
| She appears on video? They have a gun to her head! They are
| acting weird!
|
| She talks to the IOC? Everyone knows China controls the IOC!
|
| The only thing they will accept if she denounces Xi Jinping as
| the literal antichrist.
| legutierr wrote:
| How is the specific content of her Weibo post relevant at all
| here?
|
| The issue is that the woman was kidnapped by the Chinese
| government because simple because she spoke out publicly, and
| it seems to me that the media's reporting has been very
| complete in that regard.
|
| What specifically has been lacking?
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| It's fine if you don't think it's relevant. I am posting for
| those who do think it's relevant.
| mongol wrote:
| Thanks for posting it. I found it relevant.
| stefan_ wrote:
| Hey, if only the native speakers could weigh in on this! Do
| you want to explain again why that isn't possible?
| miohtama wrote:
| Thank you sir. It is always better to read the source.
| Though in this case, the most of the discussion is about
| how party protect its members against scandals and law.
| Poor woman.
| 9tailedkitsune wrote:
| Because the media doesn't just report on her safety, it also
| reports on what she said? And how they interpret what she
| said has significant impact on how people think what
| happened?
| 9tailedkitsune wrote:
| The media never picks up on this, as expected
| tomatofarmer wrote:
| Why was it censored within 30 minutes? Surely a benign post
| would not lead to such extreme government efforts.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| Because censorship doesn't work the way you think it works.
| See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29344676
| tomatofarmer wrote:
| It works exactly how I think it works.
|
| As long as no one takes notice, I am free to say whatever I
| want.
|
| You should reflect on how much effort you spend defending
| such a regime all over this website, twitter, and
| elsewhere.
| twojacobtwo wrote:
| > You should reflect on how much effort you spend
| defending such a regime all over this website (...)
|
| Wow, you're right about that. I thought you might have
| been saying it as an offhand comment, but I just looked
| through the 4 most recent pages of FooBarWidget's
| comments and only 2 comments of those listed were not
| directly defending or espousing CCP talking points.
|
| Potential shill?
|
| edit: Their earlier comments have a higher 'normal' to
| shill-esque ratio, but the greater majority of their
| comments that I have seen are shill-like.
| [deleted]
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| Well you're ignoring the fact that the Chinese government
| is very open to criticisms and actually regularly change
| policies based on criticism, despite the counter-
| intuitive act of simultaneously censoring some critics.
|
| I _have_ reflected and I disagree with you. Explaining
| how China works and presenting alternative views is not
| "defending [an evil] regime", thank you very much.
| tomatofarmer wrote:
| I am not ignoring that such a thing might happen. The
| regime must be able to doublespeak. Allowing a small
| amount of safe criticism and changing policies allows
| those in power to deflect and convince people who aren't
| paying attention.
|
| Any criticism that is a legitimate threat is met with
| blanket censorship - as in the case of Peng Shuai - or
| deadly violence as in the case of Tiananmen.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| You are free to disagree and I am free to disagree with
| you. But I am sure glad that 98% of Chinese people are
| happy and feel that the country is heading in the right
| direction, and I am glad that the world has a diverse set
| of governance systems.
| [deleted]
| miohtama wrote:
| How do you know 98% Chinese people are happy if there is
| no credible, independent study? Surely any study saying
| Chinese are unhappy would be censored.
| Buttersite wrote:
| Fuck off bootlicker
| ipnon wrote:
| There is no Streisand effect on the dark side of the Great
| Firewall. There, a scandal has a short lifespan. It is hard for
| the censors to prevent its birth, but its progeny, the discussion
| and the aftereffects, are easily nipped with keyword blocking and
| disabling comments.
|
| What effects does this have on Chinese society? What happens when
| the only public scandals are those that are convenient for the
| government?
| outside1234 wrote:
| Wait until an Olympic Athlete wears a "Where is Peng?" shirt.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| The dissent moves offline. To kitchens and smoking rooms. And
| judging by what happened in the USSR, it results in a social
| apathy and, eventually, economic stagnation.
| [deleted]
| yung_steezy wrote:
| The WTA have done an amazing job of raising the profile of this
| case and keeping the story in the media. I have to admit that
| despite watching a lot of tennis, prior to this incident I was
| not familiar with Peng Shai. Doubles tennis is a little bit like
| a sport within a sport though.
| guscost wrote:
| I can't help but wonder how badly the CCP is actually fighting
| to suppress this, though - I think I heard laowhy86 argue that
| they might allow it to consume the news cycle, to distract from
| something else.
|
| Seeing this comment, and seeing e.g. CBS highlight the story,
| it really just seems fishy in general. Something is different -
| maybe we're just in a new era, but who knows.
| narrator wrote:
| >I think I heard laowhy86 argue that they might allow it to
| consume the news cycle, to distract from something else.
|
| Meanwhile in Xinjiang...
| msoad wrote:
| Making CCP sweat a little bit for human rights is indeed a
| new era
| pphysch wrote:
| laowhy86 is about as reliable a source on China as Alex Jones
| on Sandy Hook. Bottom of the gutter grifting.
| guscost wrote:
| Ok, do you have any recommendations for uh, China analysis
| YouTubers?
| rectang wrote:
| When weighing pphysch's media recommendations, consider
| that they apparently believe that applying Occam's Razor
| leads to the conclusion that "Washington media is blowing
| literally any scandal out of proportion in a propaganda
| blitz aimed at tarnishing Beijing 2022."
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29344160
| pphysch wrote:
| Now why would I think that?
|
| > When the Chinese do it, it's propaganda. When
| Washington does it, it's "investing in our values". The
| last phrase is taken from the Strategic Competition Act
| of 2021, newly passed by the United States Senate and
| will soon become law. It aims squarely at China and
| enjoys bipartisan support.
|
| Surely no trusted journalist would publish objective
| nonsense for a slice of that $300,000,000 propaganda
| budget created by the SCA21?
| hogFeast wrote:
| It is truly bizarre to me that someone who is taking a
| very pro-CCP stance will justify this with reference to
| propaganda that other nations create...it is really
| something. Every nation creates propaganda, every nation
| does not have media controlled by the state, every nation
| does not have massive propaganda departments that are
| present at all levels of society...they aren't
| equivalent, the only reason to draw the equivalence is
| because you understand that something is wrong but (for
| whatever reason) have to justify that to yourself by
| claiming everyone else is just as bad.
|
| It is like the Communist criticism of democracy: oh,
| elections are all rigged by wealthy people anyway...said
| from a country with no elections and a one-party state.
| Ofc.
| pphysch wrote:
| It is truly bizarre when people trick themselves into the
| paradox of "I don't trust Government 1 but I trust
| everything they or their crony media says about
| Government 2"
| guscost wrote:
| Eh, I don't really care which username recommends things
| on the internet, I care about finding more sources to
| expand my understanding.
|
| pphysch's sources could very well be garbage, but I can
| decide that for myself.
| pphysch wrote:
| Sure. What topics/sectors are you interested in?
| systemvoltage wrote:
| Digging to China YT channel. Amazing coverage, objective
| and very sound.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| Cyrus Janssen, Daniel Dumbrill, Geopolitics In Conflict,
| Carl Zha, Brian Berletic.
| guscost wrote:
| I'll add these to my sources, thanks.
| anter wrote:
| Mind that some of those mentioned receive money from the
| CCP https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOIrsmjRFxU
| pphysch wrote:
| And Sandy Hook was a false flag op, because grifters
| would never lie on the internet.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| Well here's what Cyrus Janssen has to say about
| accusations of him being paid:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb-6fgN3MZA
|
| TLDR: he didn't only not get paid, he refused payment.
| Plus the payment offer was not "we pay you to say this"
| but "we want to license your content for republication"
| and "we pay you a fee for the trouble of appearing on our
| show to give your independent opinions".
| arvigeus wrote:
| Cyrus was recently exposed as paid by CGTN.
|
| Dumbshill recently posted a clip of an old video of
| laowhy86, "exposing" him as a racist... which turned out
| to be taken extremely out of context and edited to be
| purposely misleading.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| You should check his rebuttal to the "exposure" then.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb-6fgN3MZA
|
| Let people watch both and decide for themselves who to
| trust.
| spinny wrote:
| laowhy86, serpentza
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| Here's why both of them are not reliable sources: https:/
| /twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/status/145210963079286784...
| coupdejarnac wrote:
| This has to be satire. Anyone looking to be informed
| about China would be better served by reading the Axios
| Sinocism newsletter.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| I don't believe that Axios is a better source.
|
| Maybe let people check both out and decide for
| themselves.
| coupdejarnac wrote:
| Have you even read Sinocism? Your recommendations are
| very, very low quality.
| throwaway_sb666 wrote:
| Having lived in Beijing and Shenzhen for almost 7 years, I
| find that where I have first hand experience his reporting
| is pretty accurate.
|
| Would you mind to elaborate why you consider it bottom of
| the gutter grifting? Genuinely curious to hear another
| perspective.
| milbertson wrote:
| Or reasons for saying this?
| outside1234 wrote:
| And with the profile raised, we should not let off the gas.
|
| Every story about the Olympics should have a comment asking
| "Where is Peng?"
| _zamorano_ wrote:
| She has appeared several times on social media, and said she is
| ok, but prefer her privacy to be respected.
|
| IOC president has reportedly talked to her, and said she seems to
| be ok.
|
| What more do we need?
| alkonaut wrote:
| Transparency, reporting by free press, investigations...
| rectang wrote:
| I don't generally give creedence to what hostages say at
| gunpoint, and it beggars belief that Peng Shuai, who just aired
| explosive allegations of sexual assault to a huge audience,
| wants her "privacy to be respected" and the story to go away.
|
| The IOC is actively aiding the CCP's repression by passing that
| along.
| msoad wrote:
| I don't believe anything until CCP let her leave the country
| Freak_NL wrote:
| Actual evidence that cannot be (as easily) produced by
| pressuring her into creating it would be useful. That probably
| means her meeting with WTA officials outside of China on her
| own itinerary, and without handlers watching her every move.
|
| The fact that the WTA kept the pressure on may ultimately
| prevent the Chinese political bigwig she accused from crushing
| her, and may eventually help other Chinese women in a similar
| position. For some senior male politicians in China this seems
| not to be about Peng personally, but about protecting the
| continued practice of concubinage for the political top of the
| CCP; something that is exemplified by Chinese state media
| essentially ignoring the allegations of sexual abuse.
| justicezyx wrote:
| Edit: Revealing dirty political ploys and get downvoted... I have
| no idea what HN readers are upholding now...
|
| This does not reveal anything more than what Lewinsky revealed
| about the US voting politics.
|
| There are always political conflicts in any political system. The
| fight could be played openly, like the debates in voting
| politics.
|
| The fight could be played covertly, like the hidden political
| campaign carried out by the huge donation-fueled political
| industry in voting politics.
|
| In one-party system, the fight is hidden with more layers of
| covering. Like what happened in CCP's history, there are a lot of
| fights. At the beginning it's mostly ideology driven. Now it's
| more corruption driven.
|
| > When a tennis star accuses a grandee of assault, China has no
| answer
|
| This is an old and repeated accusation. It's not wrong. It's just
| obvious. Most things in CCP system has no answer. CCP can only
| improve and make sure such things can be managed better next
| time. That not means CCP can eliminate the root cause of such
| things, as human sexuality is such a fundamental instinct that,
| CCP's ideology is not going to remove such cases at all...
|
| > It is hard to see a good ending to the story of Peng Shuai, a
| Chinese tennis champion who on November 2nd accused a former
| Communist Party grandee more than twice her age of subjecting her
| to a coercive sexual relationship.
|
| The ending of course will be good.
|
| US and western get the chance of accusing China, and possibly
| follow up over winter olympic.
|
| Xi get a card over the old competitors in the CCP high power.
|
| Peng Shuai becomes a national star. Everyone knows her now. She
| also will become a special person in the CCP high power.
|
| Gaoli had a romantic relationship with a very charming person.
| Peng Shuai is not pretty in the current PS & facial surgery
| standard, but her energetic and strength as a pro athlete no
| doubt make her a desirable partner in any relationship. Gaoli had
| such a high taste is a revealing fact of their humanity.
|
| And media is getting another sensational piece that can be played
| and repeated for a long time to come.
|
| > In theory, the party deplores all immorality in office.
|
| Gaoli had already retired. And standing committee in politburo
| seldom get touched, especially if the wrongdoings are not
| political driving. Mr. Zhou Yongkang
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Yongkang got what he had
| because he tried to alter the political arrangement.
|
| > Ms Peng, who is 35, was doomed from the moment she posted her
| late-night essay.
|
| Doomed?...
|
| Song Zuying https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_Zuying was known
| to everyone to be Jiang Zemin's mistress... She enjoyed a great
| career and international appearance.
|
| Liu Xiaoqing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Xiaoqing was
| rumorred to have connection with Deng Xiaoping. She had a good
| fortunae, until Deng passed away. Although that might be done by
| Deng's family.
|
| Mark my word, Peng Shuai are getting some thing in return from
| this affair...
| AlexCoventry wrote:
| I don't see the relevance of the Lewinsky scandal to this. No
| one disappeared in the Lewinsky scandal, right?
| justicezyx wrote:
| > This does not reveal anything more than what Lewinsky
| revealed about the US voting politics.
|
| Read my words.
|
| There is nothing in parallel between them. They just reveal a
| lot of similarity of how to play the sexual scandal for
| political gains in 2 political systems. Peng Shuai and Gaoli
| are not going to be harmed in any way more than Clinton and
| Lewinsky.
|
| As for anyone disappearing. No one will, CCP will make sure
| of that. https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/22/china/peng-shuai-
| public-appea...
| AlexCoventry wrote:
| So how is the parallel relevant to an article titled "What
| Peng Shuai reveals about one-party rule"?
| justicezyx wrote:
| > This does not reveal anything more than what Lewinsky
| revealed about the US voting politics.
|
| They reveal the characteristics of how 2 systems play out
| the sexual scandal. Of course, the actual revealed facts
| are different.
| ginko wrote:
| So you do agree that it DID reveal something after all?
| Maybe not to you since you're more privy to how these
| things are handled in China, but maybe to Western
| readers.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| Has someone actually disappeared in this case?
|
| Is there any suggestion that she was detained in a secret
| location? Or is it just that she was effectively removed from
| all the media and public functions?
|
| It's not clear to me.
| AlexCoventry wrote:
| She disappeared for some time, and has since only appeared
| in tightly controlled situations after public complaints by
| the WTA led to immense international pressure on the PRC to
| account for her.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| Again, this is 'disappearance' from public life and the
| media, and 're-appearance' in the media.
|
| But did she actually disappear? This means taken from her
| home with no-one including her family knowing where she
| was.
|
| Here [1] the report is that she " _vanished from public
| view_ ". Here [2] that she " _she did not communicate on
| social media_ " and that noone at WTA " _had been able to
| reach her directly_ ". And here [3] there is no mention
| of that at all, just people outside of China wondering
| about her because her presence online was censored.
|
| Based on this I personally do not know whether she
| actually 'disappeared' at any time, and my guess is that
| no-one in Western organisations and media know, either.
| The only thing mentioned in these articles is that people
| outside of China could not reach her, which is quite
| different, and led to various speculations.
|
| [1]
| https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2021/nov/25/the-
| disap...
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peng_Shuai
|
| [3] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/59338205
| bryan0 wrote:
| There are many reasons your comment would be getting downvoted.
| I found this paragraph particularly awful:
|
| > Peng Shuai is not pretty in the current PS & facial surgery
| standard, but her energetic and strength as a pro athlete no
| doubt make her a desirable partner in any relationship. Gaoli
| had such a high taste is a revealing fact of their humanity.
| justicezyx wrote:
| Well, political fights based on sexual activity. If you dont
| like to see why Gaoli made this awful deed, then you have to
| understand the underlying human drive. I am stating a fact.
| Facts hurt, but that does not make my statement awful. It's
| just that readers dont like certain facts.
| ipnon wrote:
| >His tabloid then tweeted what looked like staged videos of Ms
| Peng having dinner at a restaurant with her coach and meeting
| children at a tennis event.
|
| Is the production of deepfakes by the world's largest internal
| security service outside the domain of plausibility? A smart
| programmer can crank one out in a weekend by themself. What can
| an entire cyber security bureau accomplish with the backing of
| the CCP?
| pphysch wrote:
| a) Peng is represented by a deep faked body clone while she
| rots in a See See Pee blacksite.
|
| b) Washington media is blowing literally any scandal out of
| proportion in a propaganda blitz aimed at tarnishing Beijing
| 2022.
|
| Occam's Razor, anyone?
| lostdog wrote:
| c) She was kept locked up and threatened, and was trotted out
| for a few hours here and there as a photo op to cover up her
| imprisonment.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| It's funny, I tried applying Occam's Razor and was not able
| to find the simplest conclusion. Especially since in (b)
| "Washington media" should actually read "WTA and the women's
| tennis community".
| pphysch wrote:
| Please don't disingenuously pretend that you or 99% of the
| people unseriously frothing over this scandal are
| subscribed to WTA newsletters, and did not first hear about
| it from your corporate media sources.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| I don't get how the method by which I learned of this is
| relevant to the reality of the situation. It's the WTA
| that's not satisfied with the "proof" offered for Peng
| Shuai's safety.
|
| And I'm not pretending anything. I never even mentioned
| where I learned of this. You seem very defensive.
| rectang wrote:
| The WTA is threatening to pull billions of dollars out of
| business out of China. The outcry is coming from all over the
| world, not just "Washington media".
|
| And if you believe the scandal is being "blown out of
| proportion", well there are a lot of us who disagree.
| pphysch wrote:
| Propaganda is good business.
| spinny wrote:
| I wonder if the readers/commenters realize there is a massive
| blackout about this in China. All this propaganda is directed at
| us.
|
| check Laowhy86's video about this
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Dc4tNY7S6Q
| zjyeung wrote:
| I wouldn't trust Laowhy86's videos on topics about China. His
| channel is very clear on anti-china progaganda.
| spinny wrote:
| He is actually very clear on that. He is anti-CCP. China !=
| CCP
| pphysch wrote:
| The CCP has some 100,000,000 active members and >90%
| domestic approval rate. You simply cannot decouple it from
| "China" in any meaningful social, political, or economic
| manner without resorting to boring Orientalist/"white
| savior" narratives.
| toxik wrote:
| And I hear over in NK, 100% of people approve of the Kim
| dynasty.
|
| Weird how great stats they get, gotta get in on their
| secret.
| Calamitous wrote:
| > >90% domestic approval rate
|
| I always wonder about these kinds of numbers. Who's
| asking, and how are they asking? And is there an element
| of coercion involved?
| hogFeast wrote:
| A distinction that the CCP is clear to confuse. I believe
| his wife is Chinese, he lived in the country for a long
| time and his videos clearly show that he has no real
| problem with the Chinese people (if you had a problem with
| Chinese people...why would you move to China? It makes no
| sense, there must be some psychological bias where people
| see bigotry everywhere), he just doesn't like the CCP (tbh,
| his account of why he left China justifies that view, he
| may not be telling the truth, I don't really care tbh but
| that is his story). For some reason, people will view not
| liking the CCP as a slight against all Chinese people but
| those same people will usually dislike America with same
| venom they see in others...funny that.
|
| But yeah, his videos are partisan, there is nothing wrong
| with being partisan and having an opinion. People are free
| to have opinions whether other people agree or disagree,
| whether they are justified by reason or changes in the
| stars. You can also watch a video that is partisan, agree
| with some of it, disagree with some of it without
| attempting to generalise that person's views as totally
| correct or incorrect...most people are not totally correct
| or incorrect all the time (ofc, this notion of truth is
| something that authoritarian govts fundamentally disagree
| with, having a monopoly on objective truth is a source of
| political and cultural control).
| throwaway_sb666 wrote:
| His channel is clearly anti-CCP. He's married to a Chinese
| woman, and I believe genuinely loves China.
| TeeMassive wrote:
| He was very pro-China until he had to literally escape with
| his family in-extremis while being hunted down.
| GordonS wrote:
| I don't want to detract from the main story, because we need to
| call this out regardless of the source nation, _but_ it really
| does grind my gears the way that Western politicians use this
| kind of thing to strengthen the anti-Chinese FUD, when there
| are similar issues at home they could actually _do something_
| about, but don 't (or worse, even support it - usually "because
| terrorists, paedos, foreigners etc").
| bamboozled wrote:
| Julian Assange...
| GordonS wrote:
| Ach, I added this comment to the wrong parent - it was meant
| as a response to @boomskats's comment mentioning Julian
| Assange.
| perlpimp wrote:
| All this sort of material and should be talked directly at the
| Beijing Olympics 2022. There is no way they can just swipe this
| under a rag.
| justicezyx wrote:
| What for?
|
| You think CCP had make anything out that sports community can
| have a talking point?
| radmuzom wrote:
| Similar to the Richard Stallman story, most of the reporting in
| mainstream media on this topic is simply "fake" news designed to
| generate outrage.
|
| Here is a good read -
|
| https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/11/new-york-times-invents...
| bamboozled wrote:
| I don't know about others, or it's intentional, but I'm really
| getting tired of hearing about bad news coming from China.
|
| I felt the same when Trump was running America. Now he is gone,
| my life is a bit nicer. China though, it doesn't stop.
| zahma wrote:
| I'm very happy to see WTA take it directly to the Olympic level
| and also threaten to recall WTA tournaments in China.
|
| Note the third para that describes the censorship. How despicably
| efficient is the Chinese censorship apparatus that they caught
| this and deleted it within an hour and commenced with clean-up.
| They knew this could have incited dissent.
|
| If this is the "utopia" that awaits us in the up-and-coming
| centralized walled gardens of software, count me out.
| GoodJokes wrote:
| Won't read economist till they put their names on their bylines.
| Cowardly 25 year old kid journalists
| boomskats wrote:
| I am not trying to defend China or the CCP in any way here, the
| situation is not defensible.
|
| However, I'm surprised that more comparisons haven't been made to
| the way the West has erased Julian Assange, and how easily he
| disappeared from our collective consciousness.
| yongjik wrote:
| Because that's not comparable..? If someone tried to
| disseminate classified Chinese military documents depicting war
| crimes, and got caught by CCP, chances are that nobody will
| ever see them or hear of them ever again.
|
| A much more comparable incident is something like this (
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_sexual_misconduct...
| ), where nobody was "disappeared" - on the contrary, for
| several months, the media talked about it pretty much every
| day.
| __s wrote:
| You'll hear more Assange when there's progress on US
| extradition case https://www.npr.org/2021/10/27/1049570918/the-
| u-s-is-set-to-...
|
| For now there's recent news that he's getting married, but that
| isn't going to be frontpage news
| adriand wrote:
| That's not an analogous situation. This is virtually identical
| to #MeToo cases in the West. For many years, those were also
| swept under the rug, but the situation now, while still mixed,
| does seem different.
|
| A closer analogy would be the accusations that were made
| against Bill Clinton. Those would (presumably, and hopefully)
| be dealt with differently today than they were at the time, but
| to echo your sentiment, it is a bit amnesiac to point fingers
| at China for behaviour that the West (or perhaps just some
| Western countries) has just barely started to change.
|
| One difference is that rather than censorship, allegations of
| sexual abuse by the powerful have long been simply ignored by
| the police, judiciary, media, etc., rather than censored. The
| end result was much the same.
| zarzavat wrote:
| I don't think the situations are similar. Peng is not a
| dissident, she's a tennis player. And Assange has not been
| erased, his trial has been covered even in the mainstream
| media.
|
| The real difference, as the old story goes, is in the quality
| of the propaganda. The west has managed to convince its people
| that Assange is a bad person, a rapist even. Whereas China has
| not managed to convince many of its people that Peng is a bad
| person, rather they are simply crudely prevented from talking
| about the issue online. The west is much much better at
| propaganda than China.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| People think Chinese propaganda is clever and insidious but
| in truth Chinese propaganda is extremely clumsy to the point
| of being essentially harmless in the west.
|
| This is the typical level of Chinese propaganda:
| https://twitter.com/manyapan/status/1454346638596743173
| afavour wrote:
| > being essentially harmless in the west.
|
| Is their aim to be harmful in the west? My impression has
| always been that they're pretty ambivalent about that,
| they're more concerned with the internal effect.
|
| I don't know that people even do think Chinese propaganda
| is clever! In my mind their skill is overarching control
| over communication. It's dumb and brute force but it seems
| to work.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| They aren't aiming to be harmful.
|
| But I've seen plenty of people paint everybody who have a
| non-mainstream opinion on China, as paid undercover
| propagandists.
| hogFeast wrote:
| The West's propaganda is just as clumsy, civil servants
| everywhere are far removed from real people (the stuff the
| US used in Iraq/Afghanistan is comic, I believe they are
| used leaflets drops in Syria too...you could also include
| public health campaigns and "nudges" in this, lots of comic
| nonsense).
|
| The difference is that the West has the media which puts
| its own propaganda, people on the internet putting their
| own propaganda, etc. There is a market. In China, that
| market is limited.
| z3rgl1ng wrote:
| These are very different things.
| afavour wrote:
| The West hasn't censored Assange, though. Throughout he has
| been free to say whatever he wants to say whenever he wants to
| say it. Him disappearing from collective consciousness says
| more about the speed of news cycles these days than anything
| about censorship, IMO.
| freeAgent wrote:
| If we're going to talk about erasure, one big difference is
| that there are many people like you in the West who do draw
| those comparisons publicly on the internet and they remain
| accessible and even popular online.
| Buttersite wrote:
| Nice whataboutism, bootlicker
| zaptrem wrote:
| Paywall :/
| s_dev wrote:
| https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.economist.com%2Fch...
| spinny wrote:
| pretend you are a google bot. can also check the cached version
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| It's also a broken paywall. I tried to subscribe a couple of
| months ago, but the subscription form was completely broken.
| mattbee wrote:
| My routine for most sites: hit Reader Mode, reload. Quite often
| it's (still) a script that truncates the article and shows the
| paywall prompt.
| blacksmith_tb wrote:
| https://archive.md/ys7fV
| HippoBaro wrote:
| https://outline.com/WTyWsx
| jyriand wrote:
| Not about Peng Shuai case, but you might find it interesting:"I
| was a body guard for Chinese Serial Rapist" --
| https://youtu.be/gZEPTCQUEI0
|
| Edit: reworded
| GDC7 wrote:
| She reveals less about one party rule than she reveals about
| basic male/female interaction
|
| The former prime minister not only shoot his shot early and in an
| aggressive manner
|
| Later he didn't follow up the courting to make sure that she
| could be feeling good about being on his mind for a while (and
| not just his penis for a night)
|
| More generally if you don't have a ring on it expect every woman
| who you had a romantic approach (successful or unsuccessful) to
| talk smack about you .
|
| Sometimes the smack talking also comes if you put a ring on it .
|
| The higher the fame then the biggest the platform given to her
| when the smack talking begins
|
| The smack talking is not personal , meaning it's not "against-
| guys" ....it's "pro-her" to reinforce to herself and society the
| fact that there was a clear reason for her not receiving a
| marriage proposal or 500 , and that she dodged a bullet .
| everybodyknows wrote:
| Comment from Taiwan:
|
| _The China racket of world sports_
| https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2021/11...
| msoad wrote:
| Every time there is a story that criticizes China's Communist
| Party there is a flood of troll-like comments here in Hacker
| News. Lot of "What about X" comments and just general trolling
| and uncivil behavior.
|
| As a non-Chinese I never could understand the relationship of
| CCP, Chinese nationals and Chinese immigrants in the US and West.
| To me, it seems very hyocritcal to live in the Western societies
| and be very pro-CCP. I have interacted with many Chinese
| immigrants that defend CCP at any cost. I'm very confused about
| it.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| Ah yes fellow Chinese are bad at explaining to westerners. As a
| more westernized Chinese who started researching west-vs-China
| differences a few years ago, I could help you better understand
| -- if you are open minded enough and willing to change some of
| your views. Are you in? If so ask me anything, either here or
| in private.
| msoad wrote:
| Please go ahead and explain. I'm genuinely curious. The best
| defend I've heard is "my parents generation were farmers but
| now living in a nice apartment thanks to CCP so we are
| thankful for what they did..."
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| Ok what do you want to start with? It's a big topic.
| msoad wrote:
| Can you explain why a comment like this is posted here?
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29344355
| altern2 wrote:
| I posted that and I'm 0% Chinese. What do you think is
| unreasonable about the comment? Isn't it true that
| nothing done to prove that she is fine has been accepted?
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| (Part 1) Here's where the original translation becomes
| relevant: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29344036
|
| Specifically, there are doubts on whether it's a rape
| charge at all. See the translation discussion here:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29344244
|
| One possible interpretation of the main point of the post
| is that it was venting about Zhao having left her and
| played with her feelings.
|
| Her social media accounts being censored, plus the
| fact[1] that the WTA chair said that he couldn't reach
| her, made the WTA and western journalists suspect that
| she "disappeared", i.e. in jail or dead.
|
| The problem with the "censorship + WTA non-contact ->
| disappeared" reasoning are as follows:
|
| 1. Censorship in China is not about removing posts that
| criticize the government. Censorship is applied equally
| on praises and criticisms of the state. What actually
| determines whether a post gets censored is whether the
| post has collective action potential, e.g. whether it can
| get out of control and cause social unrest. Chinese
| authorities do not want a post to cause mass protests on
| the streets or things like that. Posts critical of the
| state are not censored as long as they have no collective
| action potential, i.e. they don't go viral. This is
| corroborated by Harvard research:
| https://gking.harvard.edu/publications/how-censorship-
| china-...
|
| 2. Censorship is not related to jailing offenders.
| They're orthogonal. The Chinese government is actually
| very responsive to criticisms, in the sense that they
| regularly actually change policies in response to
| criticisms. It is not uncommon for criticisms to be
| censored _and_ listened to at the same time. See expat
| Cyrus Janssen:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqcScSCTgbM
|
| 3. Chinese have high trust in their government, between
| 93% and 98%. These are not fake government numbers:
| they're measured by Harvard and York University through
| thousands of participants and anonymous surveys. See http
| s://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7.
| .. and
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/05/did-
| pande...
|
| 4. "Disappearances" in the sense of not appearing
| publicly (instead of the Soviet/Mao-era sense of being
| kidnapped into jail) is common if someone was caught for
| violating a law, and at the same time there is potential
| for a major scandal. Celebrity Fan Bingbing is a good
| case. Jack Ma is another case. In all these cases, the
| person in question is not in danger in the sense of being
| tortured in a prison. It's taking in for questioning with
| a gag order (and depending on the severity of the case, a
| house arrest) until it's over -- a practice which is not
| unique to China. Both Jack Ma and Fan Bingbing never
| "disappeared" as in being jailed -- they all appeared
| publicly later on, and then information is released on
| what happened. Fan Bingbing was caught for evading tax.
| Jack Ma's example was not so much "the Party punished him
| for criticizing the state". It was more like a stern
| talk: "Mr Ma we are a socialist country, you can't just
| pump money into a big pyramid scheme which only benefits
| you for a short while after which the bubble bursts.
| Restructure your company and make sure it actually works
| for the benefit of the people". I'm not sure in which
| instance there was a gag order and in which instance the
| people involved voluntarily decided to lie low. But
| voluntarily lying low is not at all an uncommon practice
| during a major scandal involving a celebrity. In all
| these cases, after their reappearance (and a public
| announcement of the punishment), the situation is
| considered solved. Jack Ma is now vacationing in Europe
| and Fan Bingbing is making movies again.
|
| Given these points, Chinese people at large don't believe
| at all that she's "disappeared" in the Soviet/Mao-era
| sense. They don't believe that she's ever been in danger.
| My relatives don't even believe that she's silenced.
| "What, why would they silence or catch her? She didn't do
| anything illegal. If she wants to file a rape charge, the
| police will help her."
|
| Anti-corruption is a thing in China nowadays. Even though
| western media frames anti-corruption purely as an excuse
| to purge political opponents, Chinese don't believe so.
| They have faith in it because it has actually produced
| results. Thus, Chinese have high trust in their police
| w.r.t. catching corrupt officials. People trust that if
| Zhang is truly guilty, then he will be convicted, even if
| he has a lot of power. It isn't the first time that a
| corrupt but powerful high official was convicted, and it
| won't be the last time.
|
| Why Chinese wife is like, "why do westerners think that
| the Chinese government is a monster? westerners are so
| weird"
|
| Some other posters noted patriotism. While this indeed
| plays a role, it's not the whole story. I think my above
| points are much more important. What patriotism
| contributes, is the sense that western criticism is often
| hypocritical and full of ulterior motives (which they
| often are).
|
| There is indeed no evidence that any of her friends or
| family have reported her as missing. Western reports are
| purely based on the reasoning "censorship + WTA non-
| contact -> disappeared". Hence "Who had the right to
| declare her missing in the first place?"
|
| Okay this post has been very long and I'm about to hit
| the text limit. And it's late, so I'll continue tomorrow
| with part 2. Feel free to ask questions in the mean time.
|
| [1] I'm just going to assume good faith on part of WTA
| here. There are those who doubt its good faith because
| it's not the first time that an organization is or has
| been turned into a front for US regime change operations.
| This probably sounds conspiracy theoristy if you've never
| heard of this concept, but you really should research
| what the NED does and how the US weaponizes human rights.
| mthoms wrote:
| >Censorship in China is not about removing posts that
| criticize the government. Censorship is applied equally
| on praises and criticisms of the state.
|
| Can you provide any examples where praise of the
| government (CCP) was "censored"?
| Manuel_D wrote:
| > Fan Bingbing is a good case. Jack Ma is another case.
| In all these cases, the person in question is not in
| danger in the sense of being tortured in a prison. It's
| taking in for questioning with a gag order (and depending
| on the severity of the case, a house arrest) until it's
| over
|
| Being put under house arrest and prevented from having
| contact with the outside world by the government, without
| being charged with a crime is a pretty big abuse power.
| Imagine if Trump just put one of his critics under house
| arrest and prevented contact with the outside for several
| months. This would be an outrageous thing to do, and
| there'd probably have been riots outside the White House.
|
| I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and I believe that
| you earnestly feel this is an okay thing for the CCP to
| do. But that's not swaying my skepticism and distrust of
| the Chinese government. The fact that it's successfully
| normalized this level of authoritarianism among mainland
| Chinese to such an extent that they earnestly see it as
| normal _is precisely why_ most Westerners are so
| distrustful of the Chinese government.
| petre wrote:
| > One possible interpretation of the main point of the
| post is that it was venting about Zhao having left her
| and played with her feelings.
|
| Why would she put herself and her family in danger to do
| that? She's basically at the age of retirement in her
| career. What do you think she'll do after she retires,
| with the CCP denying her further career prospects?
| vore wrote:
| I'm not personally a supporter of the CCP, but I do
| interact with people who are.
|
| For those who are immigrants from mainland China who
| support the CCP, there's an element of patriotism with
| regards to seeing their country becoming a burgeoning
| superpower and as a form of comeuppance for national
| shame that stretches all the way back to the unequal
| treaties during the era of the Qing dynasty.
|
| For people born and raised in the West who support the
| CCP, a lot of them tend to approach it from an enemy-of-
| my-enemy angle in opposition to US imperialism (they tend
| to be aligned along a subfaction of leftists), along with
| a general skepticism of US media.
| beckman466 wrote:
| double standard: the US propertied class is openly involved in a
| bunch of wars and regime change operations in a number of
| countries (which essentially comes down to severe human rights
| violations). why aren't we boycotting all sporting events held by
| the US?
| juanani wrote:
| Because this is a western centric forum, and with anything
| western centric- it is being chiseled into our DNA to despise
| outsiders(can be anyone that isn't brbding over to our will).
| And these westerners(the ones in the know) realistically cant
| survive a quality of life provided without extortion of the
| weaker groups.
| alkonaut wrote:
| I wish another org would follow suit ahead of the Winter
| Olympics. A brilliant move would be if the ice hockey tournament
| would be moved to Taiwan, much like the world championships were
| pulled from Belarus recently. Who would lose? Sponsors would be
| happy, players would be happy.
| outside1234 wrote:
| Or the whole thing to Taiwan.
|
| It's China after all (according to China alone).
| duud wrote:
| It might be a bit warm in Taiwan for the Winter Olympics. And
| it's barely China alone who see it as China.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Taiwan#Climate
| rectang wrote:
| > _With the Winter Olympics opening in Beijing in February, the
| IOC and corporate sponsors have multi-billion-dollar reasons to
| help China make the Peng Shuai story go away. Therein lies a
| bleak lesson. The WTA has been brave in challenging China, given
| that it has organised lucrative tournaments there. But as a
| women's sports association, it depends on retaining the
| confidence of women players. Sometimes there are incentives
| larger than China's market._
|
| It's remarkable that the WTA has stood up for Peng Shuai.
| International corporations typically knuckle under to the CCP.
| See the IOC's response, and also Jamie Dimon recently
| backtracking on his mild joke.
| __s wrote:
| Didn't know context of joke here, so looked it up:
| https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/11/jamie-dimon-quickly-...
|
| The quotation seems to be garbled in that link,
| https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/jamie-dimon-jokes-jpmorgan...
| has one that makes more sense
|
| > The Communist Party is celebrating its 100th year. So is
| JPMorgan. And I'll make you a bet we last longer.
|
| Tho second link isn't a citation for:
|
| > I can't say that in China. They are probably listening
| anyway.
| DaiPlusPlus wrote:
| "Didn't know context of joke here"
|
| Why are people referring to it as a joke? He may have said it
| in a jocular tone-of-voice, but I don't think it was a joke
| at all: it's a reasoned statement to make and furthermore
| it's a statement I agree with: given US blue-chip companies'
| propensity to entrench themselves and the CCP's reversion
| back to authoritarianism (which history has made abundantly
| clear: rarely ends-well for authoritarians) means that absent
| anything unexpected happening, the CCP may very-well no-
| longer exist within a generation or two from now - or at
| least the CCP won't exist as-we-know-it.
| marcus_holmes wrote:
| There is a view of history where the thousands of years of
| Chinese rule-by-bureaucracy is uninterrupted.
|
| My grandfather grew up there and was fond of saying "you
| have to remember the Chinese did not pray to God. The
| average Chinese person is not important enough for that.
| They prayed to the third under-secretary to God's
| chamberlain. What they really worship is bureaucracy". I
| don't know China well enough to comment on this myself, but
| I always found it a fascinating take on the situation.
| walrus01 wrote:
| If you really want to ensure you're on the CCP's shit list,
| casually call it Occupied West Taiwan and show a Kuomintang
| flag.
| [deleted]
| jdonaldson wrote:
| I'm not a big fan of China, but it's probably best if our
| business leaders didn't mock each other's countries in poor
| taste.
| outside1234 wrote:
| Can you be more specific?
|
| We are talking here about a former professional player the
| China government made disappear.
| flyinglizard wrote:
| He's referring to Jamie Dimon from JPMorgan. I thought
| Dimon has quite the balls to come out on China like that,
| touching CCP and Taiwan ("China's Vietnam" he called it,
| referring to America's war) in a way that no one with
| business interests in China would.
| [deleted]
| chongli wrote:
| It is remarkable but it shouldn't be surprising. As the article
| says, the WTA is a women's sports association and arguably the
| most successful one in the world. If the WTA caved to pressure
| from China then they would rightly be vilified in the west for
| betraying women. There is no way they could ever do that and
| get away with it!
| adriand wrote:
| Perhaps women are also better at speaking truth to power.
| igorkraw wrote:
| I can't help but wonder this myself, although I don't think
| it is safe/easy to say this with confidence - but if you
| look at Jane Jacobs, Hannah Arendt, Simone Weil, Rosa
| Luxemburg, Chelsea Manning and others, I sometimes think
| about whether being in the historically weaker societal
| role sharpens your insight and moral cohones. I don't
| believe there's enough evidence to say it's there, but I
| would buy a story that went something like the subtle
| machismo men suck up as they get socialised might hinder us
| in those regards.
|
| But then I look to certain contemporary female lesbian
| politicians in my country and I reconsider that...and there
| have been people like David Graeber, James Scott, Mikhael
| Bakunin, Peter Kropotkin, Edward Snowden and many others as
| well.
| hintymad wrote:
| It's also great that WTA does not depend on Chinese market,
| so they won't sustain too much of loss by antagonizing
| Chinese authority. On the other hand, look at NBA. The
| righteous American conscience, the one and the only King
| James, kisses up to China to no end.
| Pyramus wrote:
| > It's also great that WTA does not depend on Chinese
| market
|
| Due to Covid several tournaments in China were cancelled,
| which seems to have helped.
| chongli wrote:
| I would be really interested to see how things would go if
| it was a WNBA player making the sexual assault complaint
| against a party grandee. The NBA owns the WNBA and we might
| reasonably expect them to cave to the pressure as they have
| before. However I think they'd face a rebellion from their
| players as well as the public. It could get really ugly.
| pphysch wrote:
| > Ms Peng, who is 35, was doomed from the moment she posted her
| late-night essay.
|
| > The fate of Ms Peng could yet become grimmer.
|
| This is not journalism. There is nothing of objective substance
| to this piece. This is literally just smut for sinophobes.
|
| In 20 years we will look back at this incredible nonsense and
| wonder how we every got here. Hopefully.
| ginko wrote:
| You have to at least admit that the reaction of the Chinese
| government didn't help in the matter. If the post hadn't been
| immediately deleted and any discussion censored, if the
| government announced an open investigation and Peng Shuai were
| free to talk to media then none of this would have happened.
|
| This lack of openness of the Chinese government on issues such
| as these is what essentially leaves what you call sinophobic
| media to write about it.
| pphysch wrote:
| Food for thought: when has _any_ action of the Chinese
| government been cast in a good light by Western media?
|
| We start from the conclusion "China bad" and search for
| evidence to confirm it, while ignoring contrary evidence.
| ginko wrote:
| I'm European. The news I read about the US aren't exactly
| feel good stories either. That's generally not what people
| are interested in.
|
| There are occasional short articles about some funny
| internet sensation or what have you but you do read about
| those from China as well. Like for instance when that
| elephant herd moved through Southern China earlier this
| year.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| That's true. There was a meme not long ago showing
| headlines that admonished China for doing something, and
| then for doing the opposite. There is an element of a
| hermetic dogma that whatever China does is bad.
|
| That being said, the whole Peng Shuai situation is quite
| shady. On the whole the only really bad thing is that the
| post was censored, and it's reasonable to infer negative
| things from that.
| miohtama wrote:
| Climate change action, lifting people from poverty, so yes.
| throwawaymanbot wrote:
| It's funny that the GOP have expressed admiration for how Chinas
| governed and it's resultant economy. (Even though America has a
| bigger economy and is a Democracy)
|
| I find that curious!
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-11-25 23:01 UTC)