[HN Gopher] Buying an ebike
___________________________________________________________________
Buying an ebike
Author : jseliger
Score : 175 points
Date : 2021-11-25 03:19 UTC (19 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (ryanj.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (ryanj.substack.com)
| lostgame wrote:
| I would like a similar list for e-scooters.
|
| Does anyone here happen have recommendations for solid and -
| importantly - affordable e-scooters?
|
| I'm in the market, but clueless as to what actual quality models
| are.
| FeepingCreature wrote:
| I'm overall very happy with my ePowerFun ePF-1. Though it's
| pretty specific to Germany. It has the significant advantage of
| being foldable, so I can take it on the train. On the other
| hand, battery could be better. (I missed the release of the Pro
| by a few months...)
|
| Note that with any eScooter, the range will collapse in winter.
| It's barely below 0 here and range is about halved from summer.
| Toutouxc wrote:
| Scooter as in kick-scooter, or a small motorcycle?
| timbit42 wrote:
| I'd like to find an electric version of a Vespa scooter that
| can do 50 km/h. Most ebikes max out at 25 or 35 km/h so the
| driver doesn't need a license to drive it.
| grzm wrote:
| I'd love to have an electric version of the Honda Super
| Cub. Good carrying capacity for around-about, not as large
| as a full-sized motorcycle. Dunno if it's available in the
| US yet.
| burgerzzz wrote:
| I've really enjoyed my Super 73. Good range, speed and really
| fun to ride. Recently I turned it on and the battery started
| smoking and from all appearances was about to explode.
| Thankfully it didn't. And although it took awhile to get the
| line of communications straight, they are replacing the entire
| bike and shipping should only take a week or so.
| blablabla123 wrote:
| I really wonder about the whole battery thing and if it's
| somehow deterministic. Has there been any mechanical shock,
| deep discharge or unusual temperature exposure? FWIW, there
| are special battery bags.
| lmm wrote:
| What do you mean by "scooter"? One of the ones in the article
| is the Segway c80, is that what you're after?
| hr2016 wrote:
| I've been using an E-bike for the last year and a half in my
| small town. It basically removes all the tediousness of bad
| weather from biking and ascending.
|
| I don't need to cover great distances everyday for work,
| groceries or kindergarten runs but it's been breeze on the bike.
| Yesterday I rode through 5-10 cm of fresh snow, with a child in a
| bike trailer.
|
| I got a model with large tires and a bit of a front suspension,
| so it's an all-round bike. I can easily explore trails and
| nature, most of the time with a child mounted on the bike, while
| it's still very nice to ride around town.
|
| High quality studded tires make it safer and easier to bike than
| walk during icy conditions.
|
| Give it a shot, it's really nice.
| patrickk wrote:
| A bike trailer paired with an ebike opens up all kinds of
| possibilities, like bringing home groceries, carrying your pet
| dog (!!)[1], going picnicking, etc. with or without a child in
| the trailer. It can eliminate the need for a car for these
| short trips as you mention.
|
| [1] https://ampedcycling.com/how-to-use-a-dog-bike-trailer-
| with-...
| jaclaz wrote:
| As a side note, and essentially reserved to EU/Italian
| nostalgics, there is now a small firm retrofitting the Piaggio
| Ciao as an e-bike:
|
| https://www.ambraitalia.it/cosa-facciamo
|
| For those too young to remember the times, in the '70's the Ciao
| had become a synonym of "moped" as much as Vespa was a synonym of
| "scooter" and was ubiquitous.
|
| The finally assembled thing will probably be way too heavy if
| seen as a bike, but on the other hand the original Ciao was
| designed for 40 km/h speed, so at 25 km/h body, wheels and brakes
| should be "safer".
| UI_at_80x24 wrote:
| I ride a recumbent similar to this one:
| https://files.bikeindex.org/uploads/Pu/103421/Longbike_Slips...
|
| I've looked into getting a mid-drive motor & batteries several
| years ago, but the price was close to $5,000!
|
| Have the prices substantially decreased? Is Baofeng still the
| goto solution for mid-drive motors?
|
| In addition, the laws restricting the speed are ridiculous. My
| top-speed on that bike is 62km/h, and my `cruising speed` is
| around 40km/h. So laws that limit the speed without taking into
| account the effort that I can add make no sense. Have the law be
| "upto 20km/h 'assisted boost'" or something.
|
| Where I live the max size of motor we can use is 500w. My bike
| weighs 50lbs all on it's own. A 500w motor powering a 10lbs bike
| is a far different animal then one on a 50lbs bike.
| jascii wrote:
| I have a Tour Easy with a Tongshen TZSD2 mid drive with the
| open source firmware. Total cost of the conversion was about
| $1200 USD. Even when the electric assist was still limited to
| about 20mph, my commuting time went down my about 30% due to
| the higher speed on hill climbs. And I arrived at work without
| sweating to much!
|
| Delimiting it has allowed me to take a shorter route where I
| need to merge into 45mph traffic for a short stretch.
| khebbie wrote:
| I don't see any, recumbent, trikes or velomobiles. Specifically
| the latter two are probably our best bets of replacing the car.
| timbit42 wrote:
| I like the Organic Transit ELF and Better Bikes PEBL. Both are
| enclosed recumbent trikes with a rear seat for an adult or two
| children and a trunk.
| pizza234 wrote:
| > I grab one of my mid-drives. But usually I grab one of my hub-
| drives. Why? A THROTTLE! Throttles are magic and give you the
| option of pedaling as little as zero.
|
| Not sure about there, but pedaling as little as zero is illegal
| in several countries.
|
| Besides, I own a mid-drive cargo bike, and had several hub-
| drives, and mid-drives are absolutely better:
|
| > Particularly for cargo bikes, a throttle is a major feature.
| You'll appreciate it when you're taking off from a standing stop
| with groceries or children on the back.
|
| with a mid-drive, taking off from a standing stop is smooth. if
| not putting energy at all is a concern, one can either make sure
| that reaches stopping points in a low gear, or just set the
| engine assist to the max.
|
| If one is so concerned about not putting effort, an e-scooter is
| a more fitting choice.
| bambax wrote:
| Yeah idk why he seems to imply you can't have a throttle with a
| mid drive. Of course you can. But yes in many places if the
| bike has a throttle it ceases to be an ebike (a bike) and has
| to have insurance and papers, etc.
| drakonka wrote:
| Yes; the only thing that makes my ebike a "Moped Class II"
| instead of an ebike is its throttle. I am able to legally use
| bike lanes, but also need to have traffic insurance to use
| it. It's been a life saver during the pandemic to avoid
| public transport, but it isn't my normal "daily rider" since
| it's just less convenient to lug out of storage on a regular
| basis than my Brompton.
| busymom0 wrote:
| How does law enforcement check if you are pedalling or not?
| gambiting wrote:
| In practice - no one will. But if you get into an
| accident(especially if anyone is harmed) you can absolutely
| be sure that the police will check if your ebike was legal at
| the time or not. If they find you had a motor more powerful
| than allowed, or that it could ride without pedalling, you
| will find yourself in a situation where you caused an
| accident riding an illegaly modified vehicle - and will most
| likely be found at fault regardless of anything else. And
| that's not a good position to be in.
| mellavora wrote:
| You do know that police officer evidence is typically treated
| as unquestionable by courts? So if the officer says you were
| not pedalling, then you have an uphill battle to prove you
| were.
| batushka3 wrote:
| For example in Berlin everything electric with throtle is
| baned
| pletnes wrote:
| On my bikes (we have 2), the electronics controlling the
| motor only allows the motor to run when pedaling with some
| force.
|
| I guess law enforcement can see if you're pedaling, if they
| have one eye open. If accidents happen, they can test
| equipment to ser if it's illegaly imported / not approved /
| tampered with / etc.
|
| As usual, <<don't get caught>> works up until a point.
|
| If you want to go fast, just get a motorbike. Why bother
| tampering with a pedelec?
| glogla wrote:
| > If you want to go fast, just get a motorbike. Why bother
| tampering with a pedelec?
|
| Because in a lot of places you're vastly less likely to be
| killed by a car on a cycle path on bike than on a road on
| motorbike.
|
| I mean I'm not sure it's good, since this will just
| gradually make the cycle paths less safe as well, but at
| the moment it is what the math says.
| Angostura wrote:
| That's why I always drive my car on pavements/sidewalks.
| Its so much safer for me.
| karatinversion wrote:
| If that's the logic, why not simply drive the motorbike
| on the cycle path?
| AnthonBerg wrote:
| That is indeed what is happening which confirms the
| presence of this logic of incentives. It's motorcycles
| which look like bicycles. On cycle paths. Killing people.
|
| This needs to be addressed with a societal mechanism.
| notacoward wrote:
| > this will just gradually make the cycle paths less safe
|
| Not gradually. It's already well under way.
| baq wrote:
| A throttle in a cargo bike helps a lot when going uphill, and
| especially so when you had to stop while going uphill. Haven't
| tried the alternative, though.
| tapland wrote:
| Non throttled ones often have a few different assist settings
| that work for hills.
|
| A throttled one with no pedaling is just a moped. Those
| aren't allowed in bike lanes in most places.
| rich_sasha wrote:
| Not allowed but endemic where I live.
|
| It's really funny, my 3yo daughter started calling them
| "monsters" for some reason. "Daddy daddy there's a monster
| behind us!". I make a point of not correcting her.
| pletnes wrote:
| Some bikes have a <<walk assist>> function to let you get a
| little help when parking, walking with the bike, etc. My Bosch
| mid-drive does that. I bike all winter (64 deg north) with a
| bunch of kids + cargo, works great.
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| > Not sure about there, but pedaling as little as zero is
| illegal in several countries.
|
| It's not illegal in the US as long as total wattage is less
| than 750 and max speed is <=20mph.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| It actually depends 100% on the trail or road you're riding
| on and how it's licensed.
|
| You can have a pure electric motorcycle with throttle
| licenses for street use. No power or speed limits
| (obviously).
|
| But most bike paths have been designated "No motorized
| vehicles" from the time before e-bikes. There have been
| exceptions carved out in some places for pedal-assist bikes,
| but having a pure throttle would not comply with the pedal-
| assist requirement.
|
| The problem is that e-bike companies know that a lot of
| people really don't want to pedal or be limited to 20mph or
| 750W, so a lot of the e-bikes you can buy today are easily
| hackable by design. It's common for people to buy an e-bike
| compliant with these regulations and then immediately modify
| it to remove the limits and add a throttle. Now they have an
| electric motorcycle that looks like a compliant e-bike from
| the outside.
|
| And to be honest, they're ruining e-biking for everyone. My
| local trails are filled with people flying around at
| motorcycle speeds while the rest of us are moving at pedal
| speeds. They're tearing up the trails because they can put
| 1500W or more into spinning the rear wheel without feedback
| while the trails were designed for us manual bikers putting a
| few hundred watts at most into the rear wheel with direct
| feedback to feel any spin.
|
| Locally, there's a backlash of denying _any_ e-bike from
| common trails because they've morphed into a loophole to
| motorcycle around. It's unfortunate because I really wanted
| pedal assist e-bikes to open the sport to older and less
| physically fit riders, but instead it's closing the sport to
| anyone who doesn't feel like dodging kids zooming around at
| twice the speed anyone expects.
| cunidev wrote:
| Similarly, some models suggested have overpowered (or
| "illegal") engines, as subtly admitted. Going that fast on a
| bike is by no means safe, if anything because of tyres.
| entropicgravity wrote:
| Pedal bikes will get up to speeds well over 20mph(30kph)
| going downhill and their tires are still safe.
| gambiting wrote:
| I mean......based on what? Like don't get me wrong, I used
| to do a lot of mountain cycling on a road bike, and going
| downhill I'd approach 60mph(100km/h) easily.....but I was
| never under any illusion that it's "safe" to do, or that
| the manufacturer even tested the tyres up to that speed.
| They just happened to work when we did it.
| entropicgravity wrote:
| Lawyers.
| bigfudge wrote:
| You only have to look at pro racing to know it's not
| common that tyres explode at high speed. Other bad things
| happen! But tyres only really go on descents when rim
| brakes melt carbon rims. That's why many riders used
| alloy rims in mountains until relatively recently .. when
| high temp epoxies became more widely available.
| cranekam wrote:
| What would you expect to happen to the tyres at high
| speed? I assume at _some_ speed they'll fall apart or
| something but that surely must be at more than 100kph.
| The things are already holding in air at 100psi+ -- why
| would rolling quickly be an issue?
|
| Of course, at 100kph you might have other issues, like
| stopping in time, but I wouldn't expect my tyres to fall
| apart under me. If you have any further information on
| this topic I'd love to see it!
| dharmab wrote:
| Look up "tire speed rating" for answers to your
| questions.
| rich_sasha wrote:
| Road bike tyres are clearly expected to hold at speeds
| like 50-60kph... that's not even fast for a descent.
|
| And commuter bike tyres are usually substantially
| beefier.
| geewee wrote:
| Why do the tyres matter regarding safety?
| croon wrote:
| Tyres for any vehicle are usually rated for speed. There
| are probably many more informed people here, but I assume
| the material and the patterns are designed on a scale
| according to assumed speed.
| gambiting wrote:
| The same applies with bikes, just that it's not legally
| required to advertise so most manufacturers don't really
| care. Schwalbe is the only company that I know of which
| actually tests and advertises compatible speeds on their
| e-bike tyres.
| geewee wrote:
| I had no idea. Thanks!
| marcosdumay wrote:
| The tires define the distance you need to break the
| vehicle.
| throwaway55421 wrote:
| Eh?
|
| I take it you've never seen the Tour de France then?
| peatmoss wrote:
| I mean, severe crashes do happen, and Tour riders are also
| professional vehicle operators.
| bigfudge wrote:
| Not because tyres explode tho
| wintermutestwin wrote:
| But not because the (incredibly lightweight and skinny)
| tires failed due to speed.
| peatmoss wrote:
| I was thinking the failure condition there is that the
| compounds in the tire were insufficiently grippy to hold
| the surface of the road in a corner. That's certainly my
| biggest worry on a motorcycle. (Edit: it's also where a
| great deal of engineering work goes into motorcycle
| tires)
| [deleted]
| beebmam wrote:
| Why should cars not have governors, but ebikes should?
| gambiting wrote:
| Because you can't drive a car on public roads without
| mandatory training and passing an exam - so the assumption
| is that you know and understand the standing speed limits
| and obey them, but you ride a bike/ebike anywhere without
| any training or licences so the barrier to entry is lower .
|
| Same way how(at least over here) anyone can ride a 50cc
| motorbike without any training whatsoever, but to ride
| something more powerful you need a proper motorcycle
| licence. I'd be happy with some sort of process where you
| can only ride a 250W ebike with no self-drive without a
| licence, but more powerful motors are available after
| passing a licence and with mandatory insurance.
| hellbannedguy wrote:
| Before we go hog wild with regulations, let's wait until
| there's a database of vertifed major injuries to innocent
| people with these rascals on their electric bikes.
|
| (I am not a fan of overregulation. In the USA we have
| made practically everything illegial.)
| [deleted]
| gambiting wrote:
| Just so I get this straight - you're saying let's wait
| until people get injured and only then regulate this?
| DonHopkins wrote:
| That's right. Not just minor injuries, but major
| injuries. And not just to guilty people, but innocent
| people. Then once we have a database (definitely a heavy
| duty one like Oracle with lots of consultants to nurse
| it), we'll need a consortium of independent auditors to
| verify that all those injuries were major, and all the
| injured people were innocent. Only then will we be able
| to embark on developing a standard
| VerifiedInnocentPersonMajorInjuryRecord interchange
| format, and begin the debates about whether it should be
| based on CORBA, XML, YAML, JSON, or CSV, and if we can't
| come to an agreement on that, then we'll have to develop
| converters between all the different data formats.
| Because the free market trumps government regulations
| every time. For some definition of "Trump".
| stefan_ wrote:
| The "mandatory training and exam" are an utter joke in
| the US. The reality is that _of course cars should have
| speed governors_ , but we have turned cars into luxury
| goods so now peoples fragile ego centers around how big
| and fast their transportation is. Reasonable people want
| to simulate a PID controller for hours as much as they
| want to shift manually - not at all.
| bsagdiyev wrote:
| Cars typically have speed limiters. Not sure why people
| think they don't.
| wffurr wrote:
| Not at a meaningful speed for safety.
| mh- wrote:
| Many (most? all?) cars _absolutely_ have governors from the
| factory. And they 're often related to the rating of the
| tires factory-installed.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| The only downside I've found with my mid-drive is it chews
| through chains quite quickly.
| Filligree wrote:
| You... probably can't retrofit a belt, but I find they do
| live up to the advertisement. Zero maintenance needed, zero
| trouble so far. (After around two thousand kilometers.)
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| Nice, I wonder what that would take for mine. I doubt it's
| possible. I just had my change replaced at 2500km though
| and it was quite expensive. Given how much mileage the bike
| gets, I feel like something more durable would be
| worthwhile.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| It's reasonably easy to replace the chain yourself if you
| want to control costs.
|
| https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/chain-
| replacement-...
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| Yes, when I replace the it I will probably go for belt
| drive with a Rohloff hub.
| deanc wrote:
| I own a Specialized Vado 4.0 SL EQ. I love it but won't let it
| out my sight. I've yet to ride in bad weather as this thing has
| to come up six floors in an elevator and on the wall in our spare
| bedroom. You can imagine the hassle and mess that would make.
|
| I agree the killer features will be along the lines of anti theft
| but criminals are smart and will always find ways to steal.
|
| I think the killer feature for ebikes is infrastructure. Secure
| infrastructure and parking as well as cleaning facilities for
| those coming back into apartment complexes. A small hose and leaf
| blower would go a long way.
| rolleiflex wrote:
| This is cool, but I'd love to see a comparison of ebikes against
| good old dinosaur-juice (or even electric) motorcycles.
|
| Much more difficult to steal, and for gasoline motorcycles, much
| better mileage per charge, charging to 100% takes 30 seconds, can
| go as fast as you have the guts for, much more stable at speed,
| almost as easy parking, can go on highways. Almost as cheap fuel
| as electricity with the smaller end of motorcycles doing 90+mpg.
| In California, you can also lane split, which makes motorcycles
| effectively transparent to traffic.
|
| On the minus side, you do need a license and insurance for it,
| and the bar for hand-eye coordination is higher -- there are more
| people on the planet that should not touch a motorcycle than
| those that shouldn't do bikes.
| spyrefused wrote:
| I am also surprised, it is true that I live in a city very
| conducive to motorcycles for the climate (Barcelona) but here
| it is practically impossible to see electric city bikes
| (electric MTB for enduro or all mountain enthusiasts there are
| many) because basically you can have a 125/150cc korean or
| japanese scooter for almost half the price. It has all the
| advantages and more than a ebike and practically none of the
| disadvantages.
| rich_sasha wrote:
| As a keen cyclist who almost got a motorbike license, one
| massive difference is that a bike weight 10kg (ebike lets say
| 20) whereas a motorbike upwards of 100, or thereabouts.
|
| I think in traffic you are fairly vulnerable to both, but on a
| bike, at least if you fall, you don't have the insult of your
| own vehicle crushing you as well as whatever obstacle / other
| vehicle you hit.
| rolleiflex wrote:
| Yeah, that makes sense. I'm on both sides on this one, I have
| two motorcycles, one electric scooter and one electric
| skateboard. Motorcycles are by far the heaviest thing.
|
| On the other hand, many motorcycles come with sacrifical
| rubber 'sliders' where if a motorcycle is dropped to the
| ground, the only thing that touches the ground is still the
| wheels and the rubber sliders on the dropped side. The slider
| itself is a block of rubber and it's $10 to replace when
| ground down sufficiently to a nub.
|
| I've found weight to be a less of a problem than I expected
| in practice.
| storyinmemo wrote:
| As a cyclist (several of them, most often either a Trek 1.5
| and Tern Vektron) and motorcyclist (700+ lb Concours 14), the
| bicycle is scarier. The motorcycle's weight isn't an issue in
| a tip or slide situation, and I can wear pretty serious armor
| in all weather conditions.
|
| The bicycle leaves me exposed in traffic and more often than
| not wearing a t-shirt for heat control.
|
| Just to give a different perspective on it.
| rich_sasha wrote:
| Interesting.
|
| The bit I found most terrifying on a motorbike is seeing a
| car pull up to a stop , about to turn onto the road I'm on
| (with priority) and wondering if he'll stop.
|
| On a push bike, I'm doing maybe 30-35 kph in a city, and
| can stop very quickly. Splatting into the side of a car at
| this speed (less some braking) is serious but unlikely to
| be very dangerous.
|
| On a motorbike, suddenly I have 200kg gyrating under my
| pelvis about to crash, and bounce into the traffic. Just
| feels terrifying.
|
| And crucially, this situation (not the crash but the
| scenario) happens all the time.
| anthony_barker wrote:
| Deaths per mile of bikes is 1/4 that of motorcycles in the
| UK.
|
| https://www.motorbikeclaims.org.uk/blog/these-shocking-
| accid...
| beebmam wrote:
| Why do electric motorcycles get better mileage than electric
| bicycles? That just doesn't make sense to me; electric bicycles
| are so much lighter.
| jacquesm wrote:
| They don't. But they usually have far larger batteries. A
| typical e-bike battery will only weigh 3 kg or so.
| Reason077 wrote:
| > _"Why do electric motorcycles get better mileage than
| electric bicycles?"_
|
| Motorcycles tend to have much larger batteries. Both in
| absolute and relative terms. For example, a full-suspension
| electric mountain bike might weigh 25kg and have a 500 Wh
| battery pack.
|
| On the other hand, a Harley-Davidson Livewire weighs 210kg
| but has a _15.5 kWh_ pack. It weighs 8X more - but has more
| than 30X the battery capacity!
| emodendroket wrote:
| > In California, you can also lane split, which makes
| motorcycles effectively transparent to traffic.
|
| Not really a great idea for rider safety though.
| rolleiflex wrote:
| Lane splitting is one of the things where it helps to be
| brutally honest about your skill level, lest nature calls
| your bluff. I personally only do it if the cars are stopped
| (i.e. on a red light) and not while anything other than me is
| in motion, and even that helps a lot.
| kortilla wrote:
| According to what?
| emodendroket wrote:
| Data on this is less robust than one would hope, but around
| a fifth of motorcycle accidents happened while someone was
| lane-splitting. https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-
| analysis/blogs/sta...
| ultrarunner wrote:
| Everything I've ever read has said it's about a wash, leaning
| slightly toward being more safe for riders. It's not safe (or
| necessary) to sit in traffic and be rear-ended or run over.
| It's also not safe to create a large speed differential with
| traffic.
|
| That said, it sure makes commuting more reasonable. I'm for
| it.
| barrkel wrote:
| I've filtered past many rear-end accident scenes on my London
| motorbike commutes.
|
| Those commutes would be 2x as long at least if I didn't
| filter.
| ubermonkey wrote:
| I'm a big road cyclist, so I really want one, because they're
| COOL, but I have ZERO use case for one.
|
| 1. My wife and I both work at home. No commute.
|
| 2. Because COVID, we have leaned towards either delivery
| groceries, or larger shopping trips done less frequently to avoid
| unnecessary exposure. A major shop-up is too much for a bike.
|
| 3. Our climate here is really really unpleasant for about half
| the year, so the quickie trips we might opt for a bike (e- or
| otherwise) become car trips by default if you don't want to
| arrive sweaty and disheveled.
| emodendroket wrote:
| > They will be a big driver of shifting more car trips to other
| modes. And shifting more families to owning fewer, or even no
| cars. When we need fewer cars, that means we can build less
| parking, which lowers prices at grocery stores, restaurants, and
| other places. It lets us build things closer together, allowing
| us to build what consumers want -- walkable neighborhoods like
| Culdesac Tempe.
|
| Simply put, the biggest impediment to me using a bicycle now is
| that I don't really feel safe taking a bicycle to most places I
| want to go (or at least I'd have to carefully plan my route in a
| way that I don't to drive). E-bikes could help me cover a bigger
| range but I don't think they're going to solve that problem.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| My issue is a lack of secure bike parking.
|
| Bike parking on streets is open season and "secured" parking is
| also frequently prowled. And that's assuming there is even a
| rack to chain to; chaining to random street furniture is
| awkward at best and ends up blocking sidewalks at worst.
| ozzydave wrote:
| Something I've noticed with an ebike is I'm much less sensitive
| to finding the shortest/flattest route - a bit longer path with
| fewer cars is an easy trade-off to make.
| milkytron wrote:
| Likewise, although some of trips are actually shorter than a
| car trip because of bike paths that cut through some areas
| that cars cannot access. Super convenient when I need to go
| that direction.
|
| I'd happily ride in a neighborhood that runs parallel to a
| major arterial if the choice is available.
| lmm wrote:
| > E-bikes could help me cover a bigger range but I don't think
| they're going to solve that problem.
|
| Popularity is the solution to that though, and e-bikes help
| with that. As more people shift from cars to bikes we can and
| should narrow roads and lower speed limits, which will in turn
| help more people shift from cars to bikes, and so on.
| IkmoIkmo wrote:
| Here in Amsterdam I feel it's the opposite. Next to the car
| roads we had beautiful biking infrastructure used by bikes
| going typically 10 to 15 km/h, averaging say 12km/h, used by
| virtually everyone, poor and rich, kids, students, parents,
| grandparents, there being more bikes than people in this
| city.
|
| Now the bicycle lanes are taken over by e-bikes going 25km/h
| and sometimes (illegally, as these must be on the car road)
| 'speedbikes' going 45 km/h.
|
| It used to be that if you go say 12km/h, virtually every
| other bike will also go that speed +/- 3 k/m. With a speed
| difference of only 3km/h, that meant two things: 1)
| overtaking each other happens, but only every now and then.
| And (2) you only need to watch a few metres behind you before
| overtaking, because no bike in the bike-lane could overtake
| you from further away at such small speed differences.
|
| Now with e-bikes going 25, you're sharing a lane with people
| who're on average going _twice_ as fast as you. That means
| you 're being overtaken constantly. It also means overtaking
| yourself requires much more thought and you need to look much
| further behind you.
|
| Overtaking is statistically the area where most accidents
| happen, increasing the frequency so much is causing a lot of
| issues. Second, the 2x as high speeds increase the brake
| distance by a lot, requires much faster reaction times, and
| increases the force and damage upon accidents.
|
| It's making me less prone to cycle, and for my parents its
| becoming outright dangerous to share the bike lane with bikes
| going 2-3x his speed. My dad broke his hip last year biking
| already.
|
| I'm super enthusiastic about electric bikes, it makes a lot
| of sense on many levels. But I'm also a bit scared of what
| the future holds. In Amsterdam the shift from bikes to
| e-bikes I feel is turning a great situation for everyone,
| into an even better situation for some (young e-bike users
| without issues) and a horrible situation for others (young
| children, elderly, those who get caught up in accidents)
|
| There's a reason that in recent years in Amsterdam gas-
| powered and electric scooters were taken off the bike lane
| and a mandatory helmet was introduced. Yet when recreating
| such a scooter similarly with some pedals, it circumvents the
| regulation.
| entropicgravity wrote:
| The solution here is speed limits on bike baths for both e
| and pedal bikes. And yes, monitored with speed guns. Where
| I live the competitive cyclists are (almost) never on the
| bike paths in any case, they do their workouts on minor
| roads with little traffic.
| WelcomeShorty wrote:
| > The solution here is speed limits on bike baths
|
| He speaks about Amsterdam, there is no such thing as law
| enforcement there, specifically when it comes to bikes &
| mopeds. Whether it is about stealing or selling stolen
| bikes, speed limits or zebra crossings, cycling on
| sidewalks or against traffic, nothing stops anyone to do
| whatever they want.
|
| Source: born and raised there.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| Why do adults cycle so slowly there though? 12km/h is a
| moderate running pace.
|
| I actually find with my ebike, I cruise more slowly than
| with a regular bike. An ebike is heavier with bigger tyres
| but the assist cuts out at 25km/h and I can't push it much
| faster. Whereas with my regular bike, I typically cruise at
| 30-35kmh. And I'm fat with the cheapest bike I could find.
| Plenty of people overtake me (in London).
|
| E-bikes make accelerating and hills much easier though.
| watwut wrote:
| > Why do adults cycle so slowly there though? 12km/h is a
| moderate running pace.
|
| It is like asking why adults dont you run to work or
| grocery store. I don't run to work or grocery store. I
| walk.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| Why not indeed? Quite a lot of people do exactly that.
| The "run commute" is increasing in popularity here, or at
| least it was until covid.
|
| At least for me personally, the reason I don't is that
| I'm not fit enough and it would hurt my hypermobile
| knees, but quite a few of my colleagues do run to work
| and to fetch lunch. I often jog to the offie or train
| station though.
| watwut wrote:
| > Quite a lot of people do exactly that.
|
| Maybe, but overwhelming majority of people dont, whether
| before or post covid. Overwhelming majority of people
| walks to places and that includes people who like to jog.
|
| Looking at past societies, people walked when getting to
| places, unless they were in usual hurry.
| IkmoIkmo wrote:
| I highly doubt you average 35 km/h on a regular bike,
| especially when overweight, and then regularly get
| overtaken as well, in a city.
|
| It's simply an average. People ride bikes in Amsterdam in
| their everyday clothes for work or going to a club.,
| they're not looking to build up a sweat but to get from A
| to B. Recreational biking is a different story and
| typically brings people outside the city in less busy
| wide lanes across nature without traffic, stop signs or
| double-parked cars, where none of this is an issue.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| Not average, average is closer to 25km/h once I factor in
| accelerating, hills, getting stuck behind cyclists/cars,
| overtaking, etc. 15km/h if you factor in waiting at
| junctions and traffic lights. Overall I usually cycle to
| work slightly slower on an ebike than a road bike unless
| it's windy. I still prefer the ebike though.
|
| 30-35km/h (note it's a range) will be when I have a flat
| clear road in front of me, after I've got up to speed -
| hence cruising speed. 35 will be in good conditions only,
| 30 is a lot more comfortable and I can maintain that
| pretty much indefinitely unless it's windy. I can also do
| 30 on my ebike, but I get quickly exhausted because it's
| almost 30kg with thick tyres. Also I wear cargo shorts
| and t-shirt, nothing special, no lycra, no aerodynamic
| helmet or whatever. However, I do change my shirt when I
| get to the office. My usual goal is to keep up with the
| car traffic, which is usually around the 20mph limit on
| my route.
|
| I do indeed get regularly overtaken, but I also regularly
| overtake. I would say I go faster than nearly all females
| and of course anyone on a rented bike or similar - but
| the lycra men on expensive bikes will always overtake me.
| I feel like I keep pace with the average young fit male,
| but that may be some kind of observation bias - for
| example noticing more being overtaken than overtaking.
|
| Also although I'm obese, I'm in my early 30s and my
| cardio fitness is decent. I put that down entirely to
| cycling to work, as it's the only exercise I do! I also
| would describe it as recreational biking and it's an
| enjoyable, comfortable activity... but why would I want
| to waste time getting from A to B when I can go quicker?
| stefs wrote:
| > Whereas with my regular bike, I typically cruise at
| 30-35kmh.
|
| sorry, but i find that a bit hard to believe. i'm very
| fit and going 30-35km/h on my bike for distances any
| longer than sprints is quite hard.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| 35km/h may be a push but 30km/h is fairly easy to
| maintain for me. Perhaps you have a different style of
| bike? Mine is a city bike with very narrow wheels.
| wl wrote:
| Your bike might have issues, your posture might not be
| very aero, you might not be using your gears to maintain
| an efficient cadence, or your fitness isn't as good as
| you think. Play around with the following calculator:
| https://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html
|
| Just using the default numbers of a 75 kg rider on a 7.7
| kg bike with a frontal area of 0.5 m^2, C_d = 0.63, and
| drivetrain loss of 2%, maintaining 30 km/hr requires
| approximately 150 W of output. 35 km/hr, that goes up to
| 225 W. A functional threshold power (power one can
| sustain for an hour) of 200 W isn't exceptional.
|
| Anecdotally, I have a lot of weight to lose and I can
| maintain an average moving speed of 30 km/hr on a mostly
| flat, 100 km course.
| multjoy wrote:
| 150w of a 200w FTP is tempo territory. That is a long way
| from being a cruising pace.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| Maybe there's some misunderstanding about what I mean by
| cruising speed.
|
| I mean it in the sense of the speed I pick when the road
| is clear ahead of me. Analogous to the cruising speed in
| an aeroplane, which is usually quite close to its max
| speed, but not quite.
|
| I can sprint fast for short bursts, but 30km/h is for me
| comfortable to maintain indefinitely. My heart rate will
| be around 160 vs my resting of 45, max of 200 and 120
| when walking.
| eythian wrote:
| > Why do adults cycle so slowly there though? 12km/h is a
| moderate running pace.
|
| A couple of reasons. One is that it's a nice pace for
| getting to where you want to go without being all sweaty
| when you get there. Another is that the bikes are built
| for practicality, not performance. As such, they're cheap
| (so when they get stolen, it's annoying but not the end
| of the world), they often are single speed with coaster
| brakes (less to go wrong), heavy (so built solid), and
| comfortable (mine is like riding a couch.) You're also
| often biking with a swarm of other people and so just
| keeping the common pace is nicer.
|
| I find that my average Amsterdam speed is about 15kph,
| and that's probably slightly above average, based on
| anecdotally passing more people than pass me.
|
| If you're cruising on a non-electric bike at 30-35kph
| you're probably a lot fitter than is typical, or showing
| up a bit sweaty and worn out. On my 3-speed Gazelle that
| is very heavy but can also carry two people and a case or
| two of beer (though I did find the limit of that, so long
| as combined we're under about 170kg or so it's OK), I
| really only use the 3rd gear to do a fast burst probably
| up to 20-25kph in "oh no the ferry leaves in 3 minutes
| but it's normally a 5 minute ride" situations. But I feel
| it when I get there.
| dncornholio wrote:
| Because adults don't cycle for exercise, they cycle to
| get somewhere, preferably not being sweaty and out of
| breath.
| watwut wrote:
| It is exercise. Just not an intensive one. It is way more
| exercise then driving car.
| dukeyukey wrote:
| Sure, but when I'm cycling to work, my primary goal isn't
| exercise; it's to get to work. So I'm gonna do things
| that optimise for getting to work in a reasonable state,
| rather than optimising for exercise.
| paul_f wrote:
| Why do people walk when they could be jogging?
| Fradow wrote:
| Popularity is a huge factor, but so is infrastructure. You
| need both to make it happen, in my opinion.
|
| I saw it happen in Paris over the last 10 years.
| Infrastructure used to be bad or inexistent (though not quite
| bad enough to have 0 cyclists). Then, with a push from the
| mayor, incentives it started to get better. The real turning
| points were the 2019 public transportation strike, then the
| pandemic.
|
| I'm pretty sure the infrastructure came first (though it's
| still an ongoing project), but the popularity is not to be
| dismissed. There is something magical about an intersection I
| used to consider dangerous (because I was cut-off about half
| the time by a driver not looking) transform into not
| dangerous without any infrastructure change, because of
| popularity (drivers now look and stop for cyclists at this
| intersection).
| emodendroket wrote:
| They could just end up in a similar place to bikes now,
| enjoyed primarily for recreation rather than as a practical
| means of transportation.
| lmm wrote:
| (FWIW that's not at all true where I live: bikes here are
| practical transport first, recreation is the exception
| rather than the rule).
|
| The article addresses that: ebikes don't have much
| advantage over a regular bike for recreation, they're
| popular because of their practicality advantages.
| emodendroket wrote:
| I wouldn't say that. They're good if you want to bike
| with someone more experienced, or over terrain tougher
| than you're used to.
| dncornholio wrote:
| Only true if you live in a country with bad infra
| emodendroket wrote:
| No kidding. We're talking about whether e-bikes becoming
| more popular would create the impetus to reconfigure
| infrastructure for e-bikes. If you already have great
| bike infrastructure it's irrelevant.
| hsnewman wrote:
| Thank you for posting this, I'm very interested in an ebike but
| all the options are making the decision hard. This article is
| very helpful.
| swah wrote:
| Are these supposed to climb steep hills? I feel like, in my
| city/neighborhood, a regular motorcycle or scooter would serve me
| better.
|
| But if I lived in Paris or Amsterdam...
| LogicX wrote:
| Most: no.
|
| I have this: https://lunacycle.com/sur-ron-x-bike-black-
| edition/
|
| The Sur Ron has a 7000W motor. I weigh 260lbs. It climbs hills.
| At 30-40mph and is awesome!
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| How many miles do you get on one charge?
|
| Also how do you store it? seems impossible to bring one
| inside / in the elevator and let alone a walk-up?
| codingdave wrote:
| Half of these rules are just opinions, and made me go looking for
| the affiliate links to figure out what they were trying to
| monetize. The rest of the article completely skipped any legal
| concerns other than saying they hope to ask a lawyer someday. But
| the line between an e-bike and a motorcycle is not fuzzy, it is
| clearly defined in your local regulations. It impacts where you
| can ride it, what license is required, and other such things.
|
| Not that the article is all wrong - nearly half of it is good
| info, and probably will help people just getting into this arena.
| lnxg33k1 wrote:
| The fact that there is VanMoof in the list at the second place
| makes me think for sure that this must be a paid for/sponsored
| article, I live in Amsterdam, it's all plain, no bumps, but
| still, I have to go every month to the customer care in order to
| bring in my VanMoof, it has continuously battery issues, and
| every now and then it is accompanied by additional issues, like
| right now for me it's the bell. So I am not sure if the author
| has ever driven a VanMoof or if he likes going to a place without
| knowing
|
| And I am not an isolated case, there are facebook groups filled
| by unhappy vanmoof customers, so maybe for bloggers it's the time
| to grow a conscience and stop advertising shitty products
| ciex wrote:
| I've been riding a VanMoof in Berlin since May and it has been
| broken in some way almost all of the time. Wouldn't want to
| switch for any other bike regardless, it's that much fun.
| aigo wrote:
| Anecdata: I've been riding a VanMoof ES2 around London for 2
| years with no issues at all
| lnxg33k1 wrote:
| Well, already the fact that you drove a bike in London for 2
| years and survived is outstanding :D
|
| But maybe the frequency of use is also important for the
| context, like here you use the bike 2-3 hours a day, every
| day, weekend included, want to commute? Bike. want to go to
| the gym? Bike. want to go out with friends? Bike. want to go
| to visit Utrecht? Bike. When I lived in London (for few
| years) bike was not used with this frequency and the
| infrastructure (up to 2018) didn't seem to allow for that
| kind of use, so maybe if you take your bike once a week, it
| can survive that long without issues, is that your case? Or
| your use is compatible with the one in Ams?
| IkmoIkmo wrote:
| > 2-3 hours a day, every day, weekend included
|
| I mean, I use a regular bike for 30 years in Amsterdam, I
| really don't think 2-3 hours of daily biking is the norm...
| There's 5 supermarkets and 5 gyms within a 5minute bike
| ride, including the ones I go to. My parents are 20min
| away, friends are typically 5-15min. It's really rare to
| spend more than an hour on my bike each day, even though I
| use it daily for just about everything in the city, I think
| it's an average of 20min a day the past years and about 50m
| if I wasn't working from home and biked to work (I work
| from home due to covid, but otherwise take the metro, not a
| fan of biking in a suit in rain half the year).
|
| You can cut that by at about 30-40% if I had an electric
| bike, due to the speeds.
|
| Going to Utrecht by bike is not really done, it'd be about
| two hours at the legally max speed (25km/h), and another 2h
| back. You'd typically take a train.
|
| So 2-3 hours is really extreme. The Dutch average is just
| 16 minutes a day, by the way, Amsterdam won't be far off
| from that.
| aigo wrote:
| I ride my bike like a Dutch person, which is to say I ride
| it everywhere. The infrastructure is getting better BUT I
| live in the borough of Waltham Forest which is miles ahead
| of anywhere else I have seen in the UK. Every main street
| has a separate bike lane and car driving is made to be
| deliberately painful. We affectionately call it
| Walthamsterdam in my house.
| leoedin wrote:
| I've been commuting daily by bike in London for almost a
| decade. I use my bike to get around on the weekends too.
| Never had an issue.
|
| Maybe this is because I've never had a job where I've had
| to leave it locked up on the street for hours on end.
| However, my bike is kind of crappy looking and I've left it
| locked up outside pubs and restaurants many times. I've
| never had an issue finding somewhere to lock it up anywhere
| in the city - there's always a bike rack, tall lamppost or
| solid railing near where I'm going.
|
| You have to be confident riding in traffic. But once you
| accept that you need to be assertive - take the centre of
| the lane if there's no space to pass, use your positioning
| to control the traffic behind you, don't go into peoples
| blind spots etc, it's pretty safe. I think traffic in
| London is pretty accustomed to cyclists - we're everywhere.
| It's when you get further out the city into the suburbs
| that things start getting unpleasant.
| aikinai wrote:
| I don't know if they just send the good ones to Japan, but I
| know a handful of people that ride them everyday and have had
| no issues.
| dmurray wrote:
| The author acknowledges exactly these quality issues, and makes
| this his recommendation if you prioritize the anti-theft
| features over things like price and reliability.
|
| He does make it sound like they are very willing to replace
| problematic bikes, which might not be the experience of those
| in your Facebook groups:
|
| > these have a higher percentage of bikes with an issue than
| they'd like. In my experience, that meant sending the bike back
| and getting a replacement. So I wouldn't want this to be my
| only bike
| lnxg33k1 wrote:
| Oh, missed that, then I guess the author already grew a
| conscience, and I have to grow a better pair of eyes
| DonHopkins wrote:
| I got a Koga e-Nova (a high quality Dutch brand) with an Enviolo
| stepless automatic transmission and a Gates CDX belt drive, and
| it's buttery smooth and silent, fully sealed, low maintenance,
| and super easy stopping and starting at stoplights and
| drawbridges, and getting back up to speed really fast. It was not
| cheap, but I love it, it was well worth it, and it's an
| effortless delight to ride.
|
| https://www.koga.com/nl/elektrische-fietsen/e-nova-evo-pt-au...
|
| The Enviolo hub is a continuously variable planetary
| transmission, with an automatic shifting option that lets you
| dial in your desired cadence, and it automatically and smoothly
| shifts up and down as required, while you can even pedal and
| apply power while it's shifting. No gears or sprockets or chains
| or clicks or clacks or slips or derailments or constant
| lubrication and cleaning, just planetary balls sealed in
| transmission fluid.
|
| https://enviolo.com/products/
|
| >Enviolo Stepless Shifting: A smart range of hubs for different
| riders needs.
|
| >The continuously variable planetary (CVP) technology forms the
| foundation of all enviolo stepless shifting products.
|
| >The continuously and stepless variable planetary transmission
| enables cyclists to effortlessly change from one gear ratio to
| the next. Shifting while pedaling under high capacity has never
| been easier with enviolo.
|
| Is enviolo the best internally geared hub for eBikes?
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vob5Rb4IKsw
|
| >If somebody asked me what my favorite drive train for electric
| bikes was, it would probably be the Enviolo hub. They have been
| around for a while but have been growing rapidly in popularity.
| In this video we'll go over what the Enviolo hub is and who it is
| best for.
|
| Harley Davidson just released the Serial 1 eBike with the Enviolo
| Automatiq CVT:
|
| https://electricbikeaction.com/first-ride-serial-1-e-bikes-f...
|
| FIRST RIDE: Serial 1 Harley-Davidson e-bikes
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHpsjDvZ-n4
|
| >We had the chance to go for a ride with Serial 1 Brand Director
| Aaron Frank. The new Mosh/CTY and Rush/CTY bikes are well-priced,
| quiet, and really smooth to ride. The Rush bikes have the Enviolo
| Automatiq CVT, and all bikes have Brose mid-drive motors.
| RobinL wrote:
| Does anyone know why quality e-bikes are so hugely expensive?
| I'd like one, but I wouldn't be comfortable leaving it anywhere
| due to risk of theft.
|
| A good quality ordinary bicycle is around PS1,000. Spend much
| more and maybe it's lighter, or you get a fancy style, but it
| won't be dramatically more reliable.
|
| The batteries on e-bikes are surprisingly small relative to an
| electric car. e.g. a Kia e-Nero is 64 kWh and about PS35k list
| price. Even the largest battery on the linked bike is 625Wh
| (0.625 kWh) i.e. one hundredth of the capacity of the car. So
| even if the cost of the Kia was all battery, the equivalent
| cost for the bike battery would be just PS350.
|
| Are the electric motor and the other electrical components
| really that expensive? What am I missing?
| DonHopkins wrote:
| They're giant gadgets so there's really no ceiling on the
| kinds of features they can add to a high end bike.
|
| That Harley Davidson eBike has elegant inline accelerometer
| actuated break lights! They must add a bit to the price. And
| you probably pay a premium just for the cool brand name, too.
|
| It's a matter of picking the features that will actually
| benefit you, and shopping around for a brand that has the
| right combination of features important to you.
|
| I took a test ride on a different, less expensive brand of
| bike that had the automatic Enviolo stepless automatic
| transmission, and really loved it. And the silent belt drive
| went really well with the smooth transmission.
|
| Then I shopped around a lot and found a Koga that had the
| Enviolo, who makes high quality hand made seamless frames,
| and that drove up the price a lot.
|
| If I was going to pop for a good transmission, it would be a
| pity to have it on a crappy frame. And the Koga has other
| useful features like good brakes and crank, shock absorbers,
| lighting, internal cabling and battery, all seamlessly
| integrated, etc.
|
| I was getting a bike instead of a car as a primary means of
| transportation, and I fully insured it in case it's stolen.
|
| I'd recently moved away from the center of the city to the
| outskirts of town where there's more space, and now I have a
| whole car-free locked garage to park it in and keep it safe
| and dry.
|
| It's really made the rest of the city seem much closer, even
| though I'm now further away from the center!
|
| But it would really suck without a safe parking garage, if I
| had to lock it out front on the street regularly, like where
| I used to live in the center.
| bambax wrote:
| An option he doesn't seem to mention is to build your own ebike
| from an existing bike. Just buy a kit on AliExpress (motor &
| battery) and you're good to go. Costs are between EUR500-750
| shipped, and many sellers have warehouses in Europe and the US so
| delivery is fast for the most common items.
|
| If you already have a bike that fits you, transforming it is a
| budget friendly solution. And if not, buying an ordinary used MTB
| will only add around 100-150 to the total cost of the project.
|
| It's not difficult to do, and it's a lot of fun.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| I'm not sure a $150 MTB is going to have the brakes suitable
| for use with an e-bike. Then you have all the other stresses
| and strains beyond what would normally be expected.
| benbojangles wrote:
| Why would you try to limit capability?
| siva7 wrote:
| You have to get a theft insurance for your ebike. A lock is no
| replacement for that. That's the most important rule for owning
| an ebike.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Another good way of dealing with this is to ensure that you
| don't leave the bike on the street unattended, figure out where
| the guarded bike parking spots are in your town, and if you
| can't get a spot like that maybe only take your e-bike between
| locations where you are in control of the space (home, work,
| for instance).
|
| And keep a cheap runabout for short trips to places where your
| bike will be unattended on the street. The Dutch form for
| reporting a bike theft to the police starts with the sentence
| 'where did you steal the bike' ;)
| danieldk wrote:
| _Another good way of dealing with this is to ensure that you
| don 't leave the bike on the street unattended, figure out
| where the guarded bike parking spots are in your town, and if
| you can't get a spot like that maybe only take your e-bike
| between locations where you are in control of the space
| (home, work, for instance)._
|
| Well, my wife's eBike was stolen after only a few months from
| the parking garage of our apartment complex, which is locked
| and has cameras (and obviously, the bike was locked). Thieves
| just wait outside with a van, drive in when some resident
| drives in, block the view of the camera with their van. Throw
| in a few eBikes and drive away.
|
| Preventing theft is all about making it harder to steal your
| bike than everyone else's.
|
| - Get bike insurance with a tracker. A visible tracker will
| make your bike less attractive to steal. Even when they steal
| it, they often put bikes with a tracker in a cool-off
| location near the place of the theft to check that no-one is
| using the tracker. So, very often, you'll have the bike back
| pretty quickly, because the insurance company finds it at the
| cool-off spot. If all those measures fail, the insurance
| company will cover the cost of a new bike (though bikes are
| sometimes hard to get during the pandemic).
|
| - Always use two locks. Make sure that both the front and
| rear wheel are locked (to avoid wheel theft) and ensure that
| at least for at least one of the wheels is attached to the
| frame with a lock.
|
| - Always attach your bike frame to a sturdy, unmovable object
| with a heavy duty chain lock. Again, in a lot of cases, the
| thieves will just throw your bike in a van and remove the
| locks elsewhere. If your bike is attached to e.g. a lamppost
| and it takes them some time to cut the lock, getting caught
| is a risk that they may want to avoid. Especially when there
| are other bikes to be stolen more easily in the vicinity.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Yes, the last point is crucial. Never leave a bike in a
| state where it can be moved around, that is almost the same
| as giving it away.
|
| Here in NL the insurance won't even pay out of your bike is
| in your own garage but not locked.
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| The Van Moof theft protection is pretty effective. One of my
| friends has one and is driving (and parking) all over Berlin.
| Basically if you touch it it makes noise. If you touch it some
| more, it escalates the noise. If you keep messing with it, it
| will get really loud. Forget about not being seen (or heard) if
| you try to steal this thing.
|
| If somehow you do, you basically have to demolish the bike to
| get to the tracking hardware. Until you do, basically Van Moof
| has a bike hunters team that comes as part of a deal that
| basically says they'll track down your bike and return it or
| give you a new one. Pretty awesome insurance.
|
| And super effective. Thieves leave these bikes alone; just not
| worth the risk and trouble plus the resell value is pretty low
| because you basically have to take the bike apart, remove the
| hardware and put some other hardware in it to avoid it being
| taken away from its new owner by the before mentioned bike
| hunters. Kind of defeats the purpose of stealing it.
| nomercy400 wrote:
| Where are the normal looking ebikes? Are they not as good as
| those mentioned?
|
| I mean, the best way against theft is to be unnoticed or bing not
| worth the time. Look cheap, normal and/or old, and have a big
| external lock, and your ebike tends to be ignored.
| Filligree wrote:
| Batteries are bulky. You get the choice of putting them inside
| the chassis, or alternately having a visible, highly obvious
| battery pack attached somewhere it will be immediately visible.
|
| Scaled-up hollow chassises like e.g. R&M's at least look normal
| from a distance.
| Wubdidu wrote:
| We live in a big city in Germany with two kids and earlier this
| year bought the Tern GSD mentioned in the article with two
| children seats. We don't own a car. This thing gets so much
| mileage it was definitely worth the money. Before, we frequently
| rented a car from a car sharing service when we had really bad
| weather or needed to drive a longer distance - we now pretty much
| NEVER rent a car anymore. The bike is absolutely lovely, feels
| very safe and is a joy to ride. It was a painfully expensive
| purchase, but _very_ worth it.
|
| When the kids get bigger we can exchange one of the seats with
| something comparable to a motorcycle back seat - a cushion and
| handlebars below the saddle - for the bigger kid. When they both
| grow out of it we can replace both seats with a chest or rack and
| have a very capable cargo bike. The whole bike is designed to not
| be much longer than a regular bike, so you can do pretty much
| everything you would usually be able to do, like putting it in a
| bike rack in the local trains and such. It also is built to be
| parked vertically due to support bars at the back tire (which, to
| be fair, doesn't work if you have two children seats, but
| still... nice feature).
|
| I love it.
| larrymyers wrote:
| We love our 2 year old Tern GSD. It is such an amazing cargo
| bike. Carries both our kids, then sub out the seats for a crate
| and it'll do a Costco trip with ease.
|
| I see a ton of them in Chicago, and everybody is usually
| smiling as they pedal.
| gcrout wrote:
| Seconded. The Tern HSD / GSD is a game changer
| teekert wrote:
| Rule 1: Just buy one ... using Buy Now Pay Later services such as
| Affirm or Klarna.
|
| Rule 3: Don't buy one on Amazon. They don't have the best bikes.
| And many of the bikes on there I wouldn't recommend. See below
| for my lowest priced recommendation.
|
| So... Don't just buy one ;) Also: Facepalm on the "Buy now, Pay
| MORE Later" options. Just.. Why?
| jacquesm wrote:
| Most of these are high maintenance or fashion items. The Urban
| Arrow is ok, as is the van Moof, but a couple of simple and
| practical e-bikes would have been good to add as well as to
| explain in more detail the difference between the three different
| drive train options that you have at the moment (vario drive,
| derailleur and in-hub shifting).
|
| The Koga e-nova line is pretty good, and you should _definitely_
| shop around to see if you can find the bike you are looking for
| on the second hand market, e-bikes are in many cases ridiculously
| overpriced and getting a second hand one is fine, people will buy
| them and try them, don 't like them for whatever reason and then
| sell them again usually at a substantial hit off the original
| list price. Make sure the warranty is transferable.
| rich_sasha wrote:
| I have an electric Bakfiets, the granddaddy of cargo bikes, and
| so far is has been zero maintenance.
|
| It's built for it too; steel frame, drum brakes, covered chain,
| thick anti-puncture tires etc. Which incidentally does mean
| that the rare maintenance will be a bigger job, but it can be
| sorted at the once-a-year service.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Watch the main pivotal bearing on those, they need frequent
| inspection, cleaning and greasing up. Once they go it can
| really wreck your day and they are hard to replace,
| maintenance is key there. The easiest way to work on those
| I've found is to put the bike on blocks on it's side while
| supporting the rear frame separately. If you flip it
| completely it is harder to work on because the bearing will
| be under pressure again so it gets harder to check for slop
| and to tighten it up.
| johnyzee wrote:
| We have had two e-bikes in three years, both were stolen within
| six months. We even take the battery when leaving the bike (in
| both cases the theft happened one of the few times we didn't).
| Obviously the bikes were locked. This happens a lot with
| expensive regular bikes, too. I have had several bikes stolen
| while securely locked to an immovable object, like a lamp post.
|
| The article does make a brief callout to 'anti-theft', and yeah,
| can confirm that this is important, but not sure what the best
| approach is. Maybe some huge honking alarm, like for cars.
| Expensive cargo bikes even have GPS tracking on some of them now.
| Simply locking the bike is unfortunately not enough.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| > Simply locking the bike is unfortunately not enough.
|
| I had a locked ebike stolen from outside my home (locked to the
| wall, with a gold chain lock). No problem - it had a GPS
| tracker fitted, and I could see it was travelling up the
| motorway to Birmingham; so I called the cops.
|
| "It's out of our area".
|
| So I waited till it stopped, in the West Midlands Police area.
| I called them and gave them the address where it had stopped.
|
| "We are not going to start ringing people's doorbells to ask
| them if they have a stolen bike on the premises, and we can't
| search".
|
| "You mean, you aren't prepared to enforce the law against
| theft?"
|
| "Do you know how many Porsches and Ferarris get stolen in the
| WMP area every day? Bikes are not our priority."
|
| My next e-bike (Gocycle GX) was _not_ fitted with a PS250 GPS
| tracker; and I keep it indoors.
| johnyzee wrote:
| I have heard this story many times. The police don't give a
| hoot about your app that says someone stole your bike. So as
| you said, the GPS is of questionable value in itself.
|
| In the cases I know of, people had to go vigilante and go out
| themselves with a bolt cutter. One of them even saw his bike
| listed for sale a few hours after it was stolen, and went out
| and stole it back. Of course not everyone has the
| constitution or inclination to go crime fighting.
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| You think it would be the same response if you physically
| showed up at the police station and asked them?
|
| I imagine in NYC that would have been the only way to go
| adrianN wrote:
| Bike thieves are often specialized an a particular kind of
| lock, so that it helps if you have two locks, e.g. a chain and
| a U-lock, from different makers. You can also buy GPS trackers
| for bikes that don't have them. I don't know any good solutions
| for preventing theft of parts.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| > it helps if you have two locks
|
| Thieves generally carry either an angle-grinder or a bolt-
| cutter, but not both. Angle-grinders work on D-locks, but not
| on chains. Bolt-cutters work on chains, but not D-locks. If
| you use one of each, the chances are the thief will steal
| someone else's bike instead.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| I imagine a ring lock[1] alongside a traditional U-lock might
| be good as it would be quite difficult to remove without
| causing damage.
|
| [1] https://www.axasecurity.com/bike-security/en-
| gb/products/Loc...
| olau wrote:
| I think the pro thieves just grab the bike and put it in a
| van.
|
| They look relatively easy to remove with a few tools in
| workshop. Perhaps you can simply lock pick them, with some
| practice.
|
| But they do protect against casual thieves, the ones who
| just grab a bike for fun, or they are drunk and need to get
| home, or something like that.
|
| I've had a ring lock on my bike for decades. But then the
| last couple of decades the bike hasn't been in a state
| where the pro thieves could get any money from it. :)
|
| And actually, I think this is the best protection: Work on
| reducing production cost of bikes. Most of them seem
| ridiculously expensive for the material that goes into
| them.
| IkmoIkmo wrote:
| I mean, bolt cutters can cut rebar in 30 seconds max:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0imMjR-Vqs
|
| The type of locks you'll typically find on bikes can be
| cut by $30 bolt cutters in about 5 seconds, which fit in
| a backpack, makes barely any sound, and you can bike away
| after. There's virtually no defence at night, police has
| to accidentally catch you in the act. If someone sees
| you, small chance they'll try to stop you over someone
| else's bike, especially at night when you're armed with a
| bolt cutter, and when they have no way to verify your
| story that 'it's my bike but I lost my keys'. If they
| call the cops they won't come, and if they do, will
| definitely not be in-time. And if they are, its a petty
| crime without real consequence, and the person will
| probably continue afterwards for quite some time.
|
| Bike theft really is just quite shitty. The best you can
| do is make your bike less of an interesting target.
| There's typically lots of bikes around, if yours isn't
| the most expensive model and has two locks whereas other
| bikes have 1 lock, your bike is likely not going to be
| the one the thief picks.
|
| And if you don't lock it to a fixed object, indeed it'll
| be susceptible to the bike gangs that just throw 20
| locked bikes into a van at night and take the time
| unlocking them later.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| >Bike theft really is just quite shitty.
|
| Yes, some of my wilder fantasies include a large sprung
| spike in the downtube that could be released remotely
| when you discover the bike has been stolen.
| Fricken wrote:
| Locks are only good for keeping honest people honest.
|
| Over a quarter century of bicycle commuting I've had 7 bikes
| stolen, and it cost me about $20k less than if I had been
| relying on public transport, the next cheapest option.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| I think some modern bike locks do have alarms, I'm not sure it
| would help though. Perhaps manufactures should start adding an
| unlock code to e-bikes. It would help if law enforcement took
| bike theft a bit more seriously as well.
| patrickk wrote:
| > The article does make a brief callout to 'anti-theft', and
| yeah, can confirm that this is important, but not sure what the
| best approach is.
|
| From my experience, the absolute best thing is "out of sight,
| out of mind", so park your e-bike in a dedicated parking garage
| at work, or in a locked shed or inside your home, if at all
| possible. I live in an area with loads of bike thefts, and
| luckily this has saved me so far. I would almost go so far to
| say that I wouldn't use my e-bike unless I knew in advance that
| I could lock it up somewhere off the street.
|
| https://ampedcycling.com/where-should-i-park-my-electric-bik...
| Germanika wrote:
| Agreed. That's my strategy for my road bike as well. For an
| ebike though? The whole point is to make getting places and
| doing errands easier. I use a cheap beater bike for this kind
| of trip. I think the only real solution to it right now is to
| try and mitigate theft with good locks, get insurance for the
| bike, and have a backup plan for when it inevitably gets
| stolen anyways. VanMoof including an insurance/replacement
| policy with their bikes is actually a killer feature I didn't
| know about.
| anthomtb wrote:
| Not all bike locks are created equal. If you're going to be
| securing even a moderately expensive bike in a theft prone area
| then get something like this:
| https://www.uscargocontrol.com/products/9-32-x-2-pewag-secur...
|
| The lock can be picked. And a battery powered angle grinder can
| cut through the chain. But both will take a much longer time
| than any u-lock. Meaning your average thief, who's looking to
| work as quickly as possible, will move on to a different
| target.
| artisanspam wrote:
| This[1] is the new bill in US congress that he mentioned about
| subsidies. The "E-BIKE" act. It's a tax credit of 30% of the cost
| of a new ebike. The credit can't exceed $1,500. This changes
| slightly if you file jointly, but you can just read the bill --
| it's short.
|
| The author makes it seem like this bill a part of Build Back
| Better which just passed the House and is in the Senate now. But
| that's not what the bill timeline says.
|
| Personally, I'm waiting for this before I commit to a RadRunner
| Plus.
|
| [1] - https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-
| bill/1019...
| GordonS wrote:
| I always wonder about the practically of these subsidies -
| would it still be considered "successful" if manufactures
| artificially inflated prices by 30% after the subsidies went
| live?
|
| I would have assumed that the main goal was to encourage
| consumers to buy, rather than to inflate manufacture profits,
| though the latter wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing (since
| it's rewarding companies for taking a risk and bringing new,
| more eco-friendly products to market).
| qnsi wrote:
| The manufacturers would have to collude to all rise prices.
| One rougue manufacturer can keep normal prices and grab the
| whole ebike market
| Scoundreller wrote:
| Governments should _also_ get free equity in the companies in
| these deals.
|
| Although you'll probably see shell companies and locking out
| of new entrants if you do that, it still seems better for a
| lot of situations.
| bluecalm wrote:
| The biggest problem with e-bikes by far is theft. We need heavy
| aggressive policing (including bait bikes) so the thieves stop
| feeling like it's low risk/high reward target. Sadly it seems
| that current political climate is to go in the opposite direction
| of not treating theft as a serious crime.
|
| I it as the government failing at its most basic purpose. At this
| point it's such a big problem (it's a huge boon to mass adoption
| and improving city living, health, infrastructure etc) that I am
| ready to vote for the first politician that says that theft is
| not acceptable and we will activily catch people willing to
| commit it and remove them from society.
| AnthonBerg wrote:
| Rules? Sure. Strong agree with "Just buy one".
|
| I've come to different conclusions about the specifics of the
| bikes themselves. From a different premise and position, surely.
| I'm a bicyclist and a a motorcyclist, and I tend towards taut,
| supple, reasonably lightweight, comfortable things. Vehicles that
| feel good to ride, ride well and predictably and smoothly and go
| anywhere and do everything. Get out of the way. Disappear.
|
| An E-bike should:
|
| * Take up to 2.25" wide tires to be able to use Schwalbe Ice
| Spiker Pro tubeless winter tires. Studded 27.5x2.25" in icy
| seasons, 29x38mm or so for most everything else. (This might
| sound strange; idk. I was surprised by the unreasonable
| effectiveness of this setup.)
|
| * Should have carbon fiber rims because the ride is so, so nice.
| Tubeless. Tubes are a failure point. Tubeless or GTFO.
|
| * Should have drop bars with an "open" ergonomic flare. Most
| natural hand/shoulder position. Allows comfort while minimising
| drag and wind resistance in a tucked position as desired.
|
| * Should be _a good bicycle_ - should ride well overall and be
| reasonably light. For me this rules out hub motors.
|
| (From these reasons I may conclude that E-bikes should be
| electric _gravel bikes_.)
|
| * Should have some form of controlled suspension. Just a little
| though. A cheap suspension fork isn't worth the weight. A Lauf
| fork with flat glass-fiber springs would be excellent. That
| leaves the rear wheel non-suspended though. This means that the
| rider's spine and the bicycle's frame are coupled to the road
| surface, besides the tires' squish. Good tires do make a big
| difference but I for one have made up my mind - modern materials
| allow for super lightweight controlled suspension and I want it
| and will seek it out. It's worth it, not just for comfort: Bumps
| jolt the rider, and the weight of rider and bike are forced to
| move over bumps; Both cost energy. (Jolts and vibration are not
| physiologically trivial; Subtly draining.) So: Ideally the frame
| should have some form of rear suspension. Very few electric
| versions of nice-to-ride bicycle frames have rear suspension.
| Some carbon fiber frames have suspension designed into the flex
| of the frame but I haven't found anything I like in e-bikes. I
| think Shimano make an aluminium gravel e-bike with some form of
| suspension in the rear triangle? There exist suspension
| seatposts. This is kind of clever. Should be pretty effective.
| The bike's frame is unsuspended but the _rider_ is suspended and
| decoupled and that's where most of the mass is.
|
| And so.
|
| I stand to believe that Cairn bikes are _the_ e-bikes to get.
| (And swap a few component out on.) Compared to bicycles they
| aren't cheap, but compared to the full cost of a car they are.
| Even without externalities.
|
| Cairn E-Adventure:
| https://www.cairncycles.com/collections/ebikes-e-adventure
|
| Cairn BRAVe: https://www.cairncycles.com/collections/e-bike-brave
| dncornholio wrote:
| Almost everything in NA is build for cars. E-Bikes will do a bit
| better but it's still a shitty place to ride a bike. I sincerely
| hope US will fix and modernise their infrastructure, but the
| reliance on cars is so big, I don't see this happening any time
| soon.
| milkytron wrote:
| If ebikes continue to be adopted and used by more people,
| demand for bike infrastructure will increase, and hopefully
| cities will start to cater to this form of transportation. Be
| the change you want to see in the world.
| DeathArrow wrote:
| I live in a climate where summers are very hot and winters are
| really cold. There are also rainy days. That doesn't live a lot
| of time when I can use a bike, maybe half an year.
|
| Also, the City I live in has lots of traffic and I don't feel
| safe riding a bike. Also, riding a bike isn't comfortable on long
| distances, you can't go to shopping, you can't get your family on
| a bike and get somewhere.
|
| I don't see bikes replacing cars, mainly augmenting them. If I'd
| have to chose, I would feel safer on a motorbike or scooter than
| on a bike.
| bullen wrote:
| Shopping and kids: http://elhjul.se
| dncornholio wrote:
| Hot and cold are irrelevant. Rain is annoying and the only
| thing that kept me from biking.
| olau wrote:
| It sounds like a bike is not for you, but for those who use a
| bike, they do have solutions to your problems:
|
| Weather: Cold is easy enough, unless there's deep snow. You buy
| warm clothing and take it on before riding and off afterwards.
| Those clothes are also perfect for taking the kids for a walk,
| hitting up playgrounds/forests. Rain can sometimes be fixed by
| being a bit flexible with when you set off, else waterproof
| clothing. Hot weather is probably harder, although you do get
| some air cooling once you're on the bike.
|
| Shopping: Actually, with a child seat, you can fit a relatively
| large bag of groceries, enough for a couple of days.
|
| Family: You outfit your partner with a bike too, and the oldest
| kids. The small ones (say, under 5 years) you put in child
| seats on the back of the bike or in a trailer. Range is of
| course limited, you can't go somewhere far away.
|
| If you think all of this sounds uncomfortable, one really
| important upside is that riding a bike most days makes you more
| active and arguably tougher, both of which are important traits
| with modern sedentary life styles.
| enimodas wrote:
| Climate is one of those excuses that are only made by those
| with no experience. In countries where biking is popular people
| drive in all climate conditions without much problems, snow,
| wind, rain, heat.
| timbit42 wrote:
| You can drive a Better Bikes PEBL in the winter. People do. It
| is enclosed including an optional floor for driving in winter
| or rain. It even has reverse. It can take one adult or two
| young children in the back seat. The trunk can hold groceries.
| moonchrome wrote:
| >If I'd have to chose, I would feel safer on a motorbike or
| scooter than on a bike.
|
| Why ?
|
| I drive a motorcycle and just on the weight difference is
| significantly more risky - if you tip over an ebike it's a
| minor inconvenience, if you tip over a 200kg bike you could
| injure yourself just trying to catch it.
|
| I don't think the two compare other than they can both be used
| for short commutes, but you're likely not getting a motorcycle
| just for that, driving and owning a motorcycle is way more
| involved. Scooters are a more realistic comparison but ebikes
| theoretically let you use paths you shouldn't use with
| scooters.
| Filligree wrote:
| > If you tip over an ebike it's a minor inconvenience
|
| They're heavy enough to bruise, cause a sprain, or even skin
| your hands if you catch yourself badly. But generally that
| still counts as 'inconvenience', yes; you won't be taking any
| permanent or long-lasting damage.
| somerandomqaguy wrote:
| Not the person you're asking, but I kinda of agree with OP.
| The weight of a motorcycle's initially intimidating, but to
| me it feels much more stable and planted at most speeds and
| maneuvers. I have no real reason to believe it's objectively
| true, but it feels that way.
|
| And in some cases the weight can be an advantage. It's it
| more difficult to steal a 200kg motorcycle then it is to
| steal a 10 kg bicycle once you're at that destination.
|
| >I don't think the two compare other than they can both be
| used for short commutes, but you're likely not getting a
| motorcycle just for that, driving and owning a motorcycle is
| way more involved. Scooters are a more realistic comparison
| but ebikes theoretically let you use paths you shouldn't use
| with scooters.
|
| I kinda look at it the other way. A motorcycle gains access
| to major highways and freeways cyclists and pedestrians are
| prohibited from traversing on due being unable to cruise at
| 100+ kph while retaining a good chunk of the small size
| advantages that a bicycle has.
| rich_sasha wrote:
| I wonder if that's also to do with infrastructure. It's all
| built for cars now.
|
| Cycle-friendly cities in Europe are really easy and safe to
| ride around. Off-road bike paths, contra flows, etc make a
| massive difference.
| emodendroket wrote:
| I mean yeah it absolutely is. But the city layouts are also
| designed with that in mind, which is a challenge too.
| rich_sasha wrote:
| So I think the good news is, a lot of it can be
| retrofitted, if there is political/societal/voter will.
|
| It was all retrofitted here in Europe after all.
| emodendroket wrote:
| The infrastructure can be retrofitted, but the fact that
| cities were designed to be sprawling under the assumption
| that people would drive is a bit knottier to work out.
| dncornholio wrote:
| Exactly what happened in EU. Many EU cities in the world
| were designed for cars. So it can be done.
| kashug wrote:
| But zoning is also part of the issue. Residental areas
| many places in NA is often strictly residental - designed
| around that people can just take the car to go grocery
| shopping.
|
| In europe it is more common that you have things like a
| supermarket in walkable distance (or atleast short trip
| on a bike).
| rich_sasha wrote:
| True. But if you could get 90% of non-work stuff a cycle
| ride away (groceries, childcare, post office etc) that's
| already a big one.
|
| London, another massive sprawl, opened what's called
| "cycling superhighways". These are on disused railway
| tracks, covered with high quality tarmac. Wide, straight,
| lit, off-road, bike-only trails taking you around the
| city (into the centre in particular).
|
| I wouldn't call London cycle-friendly but these really
| make long commutes feasible. A friend of mine, no
| exercise freak, happily cycles 40 mins each way on one of
| those.
| justincormack wrote:
| They are not disused rail tracks, they are on the edge if
| roads.
| anthony_barker wrote:
| Tokyo sprawls as do many chinese cities but people bike
| to the train
| denton-scratch wrote:
| The city I live in was designed for horse-and-carriage
| transport. Most of the buildings in the town centre have
| preservation orders. What's underground is often a mystery
| - a recent construction project discovered a cellar that
| nobody knew was there.
|
| So back-fitting cycle lanes is rather difficult, when the
| roads are already too narrow for cars, and can't be
| widened.
| unhammer wrote:
| Studded tires! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8wZHS7shUQ
|
| But infrastructure is necessary:
|
| Why Canadians Can't Bike in the Winter (but Finnish people can)
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU
| rkangel wrote:
| For all the useful information in this article I find it devalued
| by the first piece of advice being "absolutely just spend $2000
| dollars without worrying too much and if you can't afford it just
| go into debt".
|
| I'm sure that getting past decision paralysis and buying
| something is a decision that most people won't regret, and ebike
| adoption is great for everyone, but the fact that this is a
| person with 30? 50? ebikes makes me sceptical that they have the
| normal buying influences the rest of us do.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Ebikes are very different in different countries.
|
| Some countries have very limited power or speeds. For example,
| much if the EU is limited to 250 watt motors. That's only half of
| what a human can do pedalling hard. Ebikes bought in those
| countries might severely disappoint.
| 0xcoffee wrote:
| Personally I love the look of the Rad Runner. Only reason I don't
| buy one is because cycling as my commute is a great fitness for
| me, and going electric I would lose that.
|
| However I really feel that for 1000+ euros, a chain guard and
| fenders should really be included by default.
| Filligree wrote:
| > Only reason I don't buy one is because cycling as my commute
| is a great fitness for me, and going electric I would lose
| that.
|
| People vary, of course, but my own experience is I ended up
| getting a lot _more_ exercise after going electric.
|
| I go on longer trips, and since I'm not scared of ending up
| 'stranded' from being exhausted somewhere far from home, I do
| it more often and put more power into the pedals. Of course
| that means going faster, but that just means I get to see more
| of the terrain.
| mns06 wrote:
| I live in Amsterdam. Since the council banned scooters in the
| bike lanes, we're now plagued by the silent menace of e-bikes
| whipping past at 25km an hour. I really dislike them.
| rob74 wrote:
| Can anyone explain what the deal is with the Segway c80 and its
| "non-functional pedals"? I found a review here
| (https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/segway-
| emoped-c80-hands-o...), but even its author wasn't sure why this,
| er, vehicle, has pedals that you can't actually pedal without
| falling over. So I guess the pedals are there so it can be
| classified as an ebike and not as an e-scooter for
| tax/legal/whatever reasons?! In Germany IIRC the rules for an
| ebike which you can use without a license plate (same as a
| "classic" bicycle) is speed limited to < 25 km/h and that you
| _actually have to pedal_ (however little) to get it to move, but
| I guess the regulations are different in other countries...
| oceanplexian wrote:
| Buy a Sur Ron and for slightly more money you have a 50MPH
| (80km/hr) machine that can tackle harsh off road and on road
| terrain, and has a large aftermarket parts community. Put the
| pedal kit on it and you can cruise around town like a bicycle if
| that's your sort of thing.
| gnarcoregrizz wrote:
| It felt wrong trying to pass mine off as an ebike even with a
| pedal kit, though everyone gets away with it here. Fortunately
| my moped plates just arrived which allows me to ride it in the
| bike lanes for streets where traffic is >30mph.
|
| Gotta say, the sur ron is the most fun thing I've ever bought.
| I use mine exclusively for off-roading and exploration. Im not
| so patiently awaiting my 3.5 kwh battery.
| mettamage wrote:
| I thought about buying an ebike. I especially thought that going
| further than normal is indeed a great feature. Though, I've
| noticed just any decent second hand Dutch bike with a few gears
| will provide some of that as well since it allows you to give the
| maximum output that you desire.
|
| What I'm scared off with ebikes is that I'll be going too fast.
| On normal bikes I already go too fast. I recently got in an
| accident by getting stuck in the tram rails for the first time in
| my life and that went fine because I was cycling about 20km/h,
| but even the notch up to 25km/h or higher, I wonder what would've
| happened.
|
| I used to own a scooter that went 45km/h and had one very nasty
| fall from that once.
|
| With both these accidents I was in retrospect quite lucky in an
| unlucky situation. I guess it doesn't help that The Netherlands
| doesn't care about cycling helmets and that I also would never
| want to wear one.
| seu wrote:
| Guy: electric bikes take up a lot less space than a car! Guy buys
| 50 electric bikes.
| LogicX wrote:
| Yes. And the article explicitly states "over 60" ;)
| anthony_barker wrote:
| There was an MIT Phd student thesis I read 20 years ago that
| electric bikes (escooters) are the future transport for Taiwan.
|
| Roll the clock ahead and ebikes (at least here in Paris) are
| taking over. Dedicated lanes, government subsidies, government
| lending system plus private systems (2 or 3) have pushed it into
| main stream.
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| Same in Berlin. During the lock-down, the city transformed
| quite a bit. Several roads first got temporary bike lanes (they
| sacrificed a lane for this) and then when that turned out to be
| popular they went ahead and made it permanent. Some
| uncharacteristically quick and pragmatic decision making
| actually happened.
|
| And of course the entire city is crawling with rental scooters,
| e-bikes, etc. They are hugely popular. Also a lot of the
| delivery companies are using electric scooters and ebikes. The
| volume of all this new traffic is actually forcing the city to
| adapt.
|
| Berlin still has a long way to catch up to the Netherlands
| (where I'm from), which has awesome bike infrastructure almost
| everywhere. But, it's a nice start.
|
| There are still too many deadly accidents and quite a few of
| them are due to infrastructure lacking key safety measures.
| E.g. a common accident cause is trucks running over cyclists
| when turning right. The way to prevent that is having clearly
| marked bike lanes and some obstacles that force trucks to not
| cut corners, slow down, and check their mirrors.
| rich_sasha wrote:
| One thing where infrastructure and laws need to catch up is that
| while ebikes enjoy similar privileges to bikes (access to bike
| paths, use of mixed pedestrian/cyclist paths etc), many are
| basically electric scooters, way more powerful and heavy than any
| bike.
|
| In my town, you see a lot of full-fledged electric scooters with
| vestigial pedals for pretending it's a bike (and it seems a
| togglable speed limiter). They then terrorise the kids and other
| less confident cyclists, or indeed pedestrians when they fancy
| like a ride on the pavement.
|
| That's not great either. The premise of an ebike is something
| with similar power output to a push bike, just lower user power
| use. These e-not-really-bikes are dangerous to cyclists.
| KingMachiavelli wrote:
| But was the point of the infrastructure built for cyclists or
| commuters using bikes?
|
| In the absence of intentional malice, I don't see why a
| throttled e-bike user should not be able to use bike lanes and
| bike paths. Seems like the solution is just a speed limit.
|
| If I have to travel a few miles on a standard road before
| getting to an area with bike paths... I can't really switch to
| a different bike. But having a electric scooter type bike makes
| a lot of sense if the purpose is commuting.
|
| Cyclists in NY are infamous for being obnoxious/dangerous to
| pedestrians and even car drivers and they accomplish that
| without electric bikes.
| gnopgnip wrote:
| It helps to put some perspective in when saying they are
| heavier and more powerful. A typical cyclist can put out around
| 250w of power for a short duration, a US street legal ebike
| will do 250-750w. An average American male weighs ~200lbs, a
| typical mountain bike or cruiser will be 20-25lbs, a commuter
| type ebike will be 65lbs. A road bike, or road style ebike
| would be lighter, a cargo bike would be heavier. So an ebike
| weighs ~15% more overall, but combined with someone pedaling
| has 2-4x the power of a regular bike.
|
| Compared to a Tesla model 3 performance, it weighs 4250lbs, 16x
| as much, rated for 350kw, 350x the power. Even a Smart car one
| of the smallest cars in the US weighs ~8x as much and has 60x
| the power of an ebike.
| bjackman wrote:
| Here in Zurich, and I think many parts of Europe, the rule is
| simple: to be regulated like normal bikes the motor can't push
| you past 25km/h.
|
| With this limit I have not personally had any issues with
| E-Bikes/scooters being a hazard.
|
| On the other side of the coin, 25km/h is a bit slower than I
| ride my pushbike, but plenty fast enough to make
| E-Bikes/scooters an attractive solution.
|
| I'm pretty happy with this balance - my only gripe with the
| shared scooters is people park them inconsiderately.
| rich_sasha wrote:
| I think it's a good law, and it's the same in the UK, just
| not enforced at all.
|
| It spills over to other things electric, you have electric
| scooters zooming on pavements around school kids and
| unexpecting pedestrians, it's terrible I think but totally
| ignored.
|
| It feels like electric mobility is prioritised over
| pedestrian safety. Maybe because the police think these
| scooters displace cars (so net safety win) but I still don't
| like it.
| multjoy wrote:
| The police in the UK aren't enforcing it because they
| haven't got sufficient resources. It's not a policy
| decision.
| dpatterbee wrote:
| The UK (or at least my city) has a problem where a lot of
| places have just enough bike infrastructure to be
| dangerous. People can get some % of the way from A to B
| without trouble, but then resort to the pavement when they
| get to a busy road without proper infrastructure.
|
| Also doesn't help that many councils seem to think that
| shared bus/bicycle lanes are bicycle infrastructure.
| rich_sasha wrote:
| > Also doesn't help that many councils seem to think that
| shared bus/bicycle lanes are bicycle infrastructure.
|
| I'll take that over bikes / scooters on the pavement any
| day.
|
| Perhaps my view is skewed by the fact that I'm usually
| faster than a (frequently stopping) bus so at most I'm
| annoyed when it comes to overtaking.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| I'm not sure when the law changed here (UK); until a few
| years ago, it was a criminal offence to ride a powered
| vehicle on the footway, and a different criminal offence
| to ride an electric scooter on the carriageway (not
| taxed, not certified for safety). So it was illegaal to
| ride an electric scooter on public land.
|
| Now local authorities are making deals with Chinese
| scooter-rental companies, and little scooter parks are
| popping up on the footway all over town. I nearly got
| knocked down by a rental e-scooter just yesterday - I was
| walking on the footway, the scooter zoomed past me with
| 3" clearance.
|
| I disapprove of local authorities making deals with
| retailers (advertising hoardings on the footway) and
| scooter firms to "monetise" space that's supposed to be
| reserved for pedestrians.
| udp wrote:
| _> I disapprove of local authorities making deals with
| retailers (advertising hoardings on the footway) and
| scooter firms to "monetise" space that's supposed to be
| reserved for pedestrians_
|
| Except the app specifically tells you, after you send it
| a picture of your driving license to unlock the scooter,
| that you're only allowed to ride it on roads <= 30mph and
| cycle paths.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| My point is that the scooter parks have been carved out
| of the footway; the local authority is licensing the use
| of the footway for things other than pedestrians.
|
| I try to avoid brushing past people on the
| pavement/footway/sidewalk; these obstructions make the
| footway one-way, so I just have to wait until the path is
| clear. This becomes insane if there's also a bus stop -
| the bus queue takes up all the space that's left after
| the scooter parks and signboards have taken their bite. I
| have to step into the carriageway.
| rich_sasha wrote:
| I used these once or twice (only to pick up my bike from
| a service). When you sign up, you have to swear on your
| mother's life not to ride it on the pavement.
|
| ...
|
| That definitely works.
| IkmoIkmo wrote:
| The 25km/h limit is EU legislation as far as I know, so
| indeed it'll be in almost all of Europe.
|
| I think the issue is two-fold: 1) There's not much
| enforcement. Many units can be set to go say 32km/h with a
| software update. And speedbikes (which can look virtually the
| same) can go 45km/h, which require a helmet and must be on
| the car-road, but are often driven as regular e-bikes on
| bikelanes or the pavement.
|
| 2) The 25km/h really can be too fast, already. One must
| consider that in-city biking typically is done at say 9 to
| 15km/h, averaging 12km/h. The speed difference between an
| average cycler and his low (9) or higher-end (15) peers is
| typically about 3km/h. An e-bike going 25 changes the
| calculus, now the difference is 13km/h, or double the speed
| of the regular bike. And that creates a lot of issues.
| Overtaking is statistically the biggest source of accidents,
| and it happens way more frequently if the lane is shared by
| bikes going 12 and 25, rather than all averaging 12. And the
| act of overtaking is more dangerous too if it's done on a
| lane which has a large variance in speeds.
|
| I'd love to see a limit of 20km/h, and a limit to 50% pedal
| assist, on bike infrastructure. That keeps the speed
| differences low, and it reinforces that one must bike, and
| put in effort.
|
| Right now the experience as a biker is that you're sharing a
| lane with motorised electric scooters, going twice your
| speed, and doing it by essentially pressing a button.
|
| I think electric motorised two-tire vehicles are still a
| great solution at 25 or 45km/h, but not regulated as bikes,
| but rather regulated as a scooter. That could mean having to
| wear a helmet, having to have a (light) license, a license-
| plate (to allow enforcement of rules), being 18+, riding on a
| separate lane with traffic going similar speeds.
| tomcooks wrote:
| For the record: it is cheating, and you're polluting the
| environment because you're too lazy to cycle.
|
| Sincerely, the no lycra no lithium committee
| garbanzoXDP wrote:
| No lycra, lithium committee checking in.
|
| Show me the rulebook. Many ride bikes/ebikes for reasons
| primarily other than exercise, myself included--"cheating", is
| a feature, not a bug.
|
| One could argue "walking" is even more environmentally friendly
| than biking as there are minimal manufacturing byproducts
| (shoes?) and end waste. Does that mean we should all ditch
| bikes? If an ebike can take a car off the road, I'm all for it!
| notacoward wrote:
| > If an ebike can take a car off the road, I'm all for it!
|
| Most e-bike usage does effectively mean one less car on the
| road.
|
| The problem I (and many others) have with e-bikes is that
| they're putting extra strain on the already-insufficient (in
| the US at least) pedestrian/cyclist infrastructure. Many of
| those paths could barely support the users they already had
| safely; the addition of even more users and yet another speed
| mismatch has been a bit of a disaster. The real answer, of
| course, is more such infrastructure, but it's a bit of a
| classic chicken-and-egg problem. Nobody's going to build such
| infrastructure (which is terribly expensive due to the fact
| that it would generally require exercise of eminent domain)
| without demand, but demand is going to be limited until the
| infrastructure improves. I don't know of a good way out of
| that bind, unfortunately.
| Filligree wrote:
| > Nobody's going to build such infrastructure (which is
| terribly expensive due to the fact that it would generally
| require exercise of eminent domain) without demand, but
| demand is going to be limited until the infrastructure
| improves.
|
| My impression of america is that there's super wide four-
| lane roads everywhere, including the middle of cities. Use
| one of the lanes?
|
| I'm sure that's not true everywhere, but it seems to be
| true everywhere there's currently far too many cars, so...
| notacoward wrote:
| > Use one of the lanes?
|
| Yes, definitely. They'd have to be _physically isolated_
| from the heavier higher-speed traffic, and there 's some
| complexity around providing safe on/off ramps for both
| traffic types, but it's all solvable. The bigger issue is
| that it only addresses riders' longer-distance travels.
| The more difficult issue is shorter distances in cities
| and on secondary suburban roads. Shuttling kids around
| and various other day-to-day errands constitute a
| majority of non-commute driving for huge numbers of
| people. What do you do when the road only has one lane in
| each direction already, directly abutted on all sides by
| private property? That's the part I don't see a solution
| for. The only thing I can think of (which also helps
| address some of the "borrowed highway lane" issues) is
| fully elevated bikeways, which is hardly cheap or
| visually appealing but at least seems _feasible_
| financially and politically.
| peatmoss wrote:
| Ebikes are in a weird territory between bicycles and motorcycles.
| I occasionally see ebikes clipping along at a rate that would
| make me a lot happier with a full face helmet and some degree of
| abrasion resistance and soft armor.
|
| I guess this is technically true of bombing down hill on a
| conventionally powered bicycle as well (which I've done many
| times in shorts and with naught but an aerodynamic hunk of
| styrofoam strapped to my head). Still, I see ebikes pushing skin-
| removal speeds pretty routinely.
|
| From my adventures in motorcycling, I know that ABS yields
| somewhere between 30-40% reduction in crashes. I wonder if any of
| the higher-wattage ebikes are starting to explore those kinds of
| things? Similarly, I just paid an eye-wateringly high cost for
| new motorcycle tires, that are marvels of engineering in their
| own right. I wonder if high-powered ebikes are starting to use
| high-tech rubber for safety.
| bullen wrote:
| You should get an ebike that has regenerative breaking, not
| because it's safer/better but because it does not wear anything
| (except the tyres, hard to avoid that) down when breaking since
| it's magnetic.
| Reason077 wrote:
| Not really. Regenerative braking is quite unusual in e-bikes as
| it requires a "direct drive" motor, and that comes with some of
| its own disadvantages. Heavier, don't accelerate as fast, can't
| "freewheel" like a traditional bicycle, etc.
|
| Now days, most riders (and manufacturers!) seem to prefer
| geared hub and mid-drive motors.
| bullen wrote:
| True but it's also simpler and if you are building something
| to replace your car (replacing your bike is not interesting
| since you should use that instead) those are not
| disadvantages, see: http://elhjul.se
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