[HN Gopher] U.S. lawmakers call for privacy legislation after Re...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       U.S. lawmakers call for privacy legislation after Reuters report on
       Amazon
        
       Author : CapitalistCartr
       Score  : 161 points
       Date   : 2021-11-22 12:46 UTC (10 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
        
       | ancode wrote:
       | If only they had the power to actually enact legislation
        
         | maxerickson wrote:
         | This sort of cynicism is confusing. Bringing attention to an
         | issue is an obvious component of enacting legislation when
         | there are many different topics competing for that attention in
         | the legislature.
         | 
         | If it was a resolution passed by the full house calling on
         | Amazon to be nice guys, well then okay, be as cynical as you
         | want about that.
        
           | Aunche wrote:
           | >when there are many different topics competing
           | 
           | The number one thing competing from legislature's time is
           | creating soundbytes that make them seem tough. So many bills
           | are intentionally politically infeasible because people vote
           | for politicians based on what they say rather than what they
           | accomplish. They don't have any time left to learn about
           | areas that they aren't particularly passionate about, so
           | they'll just listen to that intelligent-sounding Amazon
           | lobbyist has to say about how a bill would destroy a million
           | jobs.
        
           | denton-scratch wrote:
           | Passing bills is another component - quite an important one.
           | The federal government currently faces challenges getting
           | bills through.
        
           | [deleted]
        
       | ren_engineer wrote:
       | > Internal documents reveal how a former aide to Joe Biden helped
       | the tech giant build a lobbying juggernaut that has gutted
       | legislation
       | 
       | nothing is going to happen, especially considering the complaints
       | are related to Alexa recordings. NSA/DOJ love the idea of having
       | recording devices they can hack/subpoena whenever they want, they
       | are basically opt-in 1984 telescreens. All Amazon has to do is
       | remind Congress behind closed doors that they are an extension of
       | the surveillance state
        
         | AnthonyMouse wrote:
         | It's really interesting to see, on the one hand, the claim from
         | the former Alexa engineer that they're not doing this and take
         | privacy seriously, and on the other hand, the claim that
         | they're government surveillance devices.
         | 
         | Because it's possible that they could both be true. The
         | engineers take privacy seriously, think they're preserving it
         | well, and then the man from the government comes in and PRISMs
         | their servers and only he and one other person at the whole
         | company knows about it.
         | 
         | But obviously privacy legislation isn't going to fix _that_.
        
           | LogonType10 wrote:
           | You know it's a crackpot theory when it's so unfalsifiable as
           | to be absurd. You think one person--just one person--can
           | manage the data of millions of people, the backups, the
           | government requests, the exporting, and the IT
           | troubleshooting? That's awfully convenient, and I expect
           | you'll never be proven wrong and have to feel dumb for
           | believing it.
        
             | AnthonyMouse wrote:
             | The rest of the people work for the government, not the
             | corporation? All they need is someone inside the company
             | whose job it is to keep other people inside the company
             | from finding out. It's the same model as police use for
             | informants and intelligence services use for espionage.
             | 
             | It's also kind of pointless to talk about how to falsify a
             | class of thing we have affirmative evidence is happening.
             | When we found out about PRISM, the heads of the companies
             | said they didn't know anything about it. So either they
             | were lying or their subordinates successfully kept it a
             | secret from them.
             | 
             | Moreover, the interesting question isn't whether it's
             | happening right now. It's that given we know it can happen,
             | how do we prevent it from happening? For example, by using
             | software with published source code that runs on your own
             | device instead of someone else's.
        
               | LogonType10 wrote:
               | >It's also kind of pointless to talk about how to falsify
               | a class of thing we have affirmative evidence is
               | happening.
               | 
               | Can you elaborate on the logic behind this a bit more and
               | perhaps explain how it wouldn't justify McCarthyism as
               | well? (e.g. we know that there was a Soviet spy in one
               | office, so every office that acts displeasingly is filled
               | with Soviet spies)
        
               | AnthonyMouse wrote:
               | Sure.
               | 
               | The problem with McCarthyism is that you're accusing
               | people of being spies without any real evidence. They
               | are, in all likelihood, innocent people being punished
               | for no reason. It becomes a witch hunt and a pretext for
               | punishing anyone you don't like but have no _legitimate_
               | reason to punish.
               | 
               | By contrast, "spies exist" is a thing that we know is
               | true. There have been documented instances. We don't need
               | to know that there is there is a spy in a particular
               | company at a particular time to know that we should take
               | rational countermeasures against them. Encrypt
               | everything. Eliminate centralization to avoid a single
               | point of compromise for millions of people.
               | 
               | This can't be used for a witch hunt because it's
               | defensive rather than offensive and isn't singling out
               | any particular entity for special scrutiny. If we don't
               | know which particular company or technology is targeted
               | at which time, if we don't know if the adversary is
               | Russia or China or organized crime or corrupt law
               | enforcement, the course of action is still the same. Make
               | mass surveillance as difficult as possible for everybody
               | everywhere.
        
       | harry8 wrote:
       | Money vs people re-deploying their votes. Who wins? Why?
        
       | loteck wrote:
       | Despite the day to day situation in congress, it seems inevitable
       | that in the short to mid term, the US will have to stand up new
       | privacy legislation in order to maintain participation in the
       | digital economy.
       | 
       | The question will be how they define privacy, and who will write
       | the law.
       | 
       | If activism doesn't interest you and you're looking for a
       | reasonable shortcut, follow the work/proposals of Sen. Ron Wyden.
       | He employs actual expert technologists who advise him on policy,
       | and their expertise frequently shows up in the legislation he
       | proposes.
        
         | ssklash wrote:
         | Wyden is the single best tech-related legislator in Congress,
         | in my opinion. A great all around senator as well.
        
           | dantheman wrote:
           | He says the right things sometimes but is often ineffective -
           | why didn't he call out Clapper when he was lying to him in
           | congress? It is up to the legislature to control the
           | government.
        
             | boomboomsubban wrote:
             | I believe either he wasn't sure he was lying, or announcing
             | that he was lying would have broken the Official Secrets
             | Act.
        
           | rileyphone wrote:
           | > In May 2017, Wyden co-sponsored the Israel Anti-Boycott
           | Act, Senate Bill 720, which made it a federal crime,
           | punishable by a maximum sentence of 20 years
           | imprisonment,[55] for Americans to encourage or participate
           | in boycotts against Israel and Israeli settlements in the
           | occupied Palestinian territories if protesting actions by the
           | Israeli government. The bill would make it legal for U.S.
           | states to refuse to do business with contractors that engage
           | in boycotts against Israel.[56]
           | 
           | It amazes me how otherwise sensible legislators look like
           | goons when it's AIPAC calling, approving bills that make free
           | speech a crime.
        
             | boomboomsubban wrote:
             | While I am not in favor of the bill, his description of it
             | is far different from the one presumably on his Wikipedia
             | page.
             | 
             | He said it adds to an existing law, one that has never sent
             | a person to prison, that forbids people from following a
             | boycott organized by a foreign state. You'd be free to form
             | your own boycott.
             | 
             | Again, not something I support. But on the "bullshit
             | Representatives support" scale, not a huge deal
             | 
             | https://pamplinmedia.com/pt/9-news/368374-250754-wyden-
             | defen...
        
             | mschuster91 wrote:
             | > The bill would make it legal for U.S. states to refuse to
             | do business with contractors that engage in boycotts
             | against Israel.
             | 
             | I fail to see the problem in the government not indirectly
             | funding entities supporting agitation against a close
             | military and political ally of the US.
        
         | systemvoltage wrote:
         | > maintain participation in the digital economy.
         | 
         | I think your logic is reverse. There is an asymmetrical
         | advantage for companies like Google and Facebook.
        
           | loteck wrote:
           | I think you've expressed a US-centric perspective, where the
           | US leads the world and the world reacts.
           | 
           | The rest of the world is advancing privacy legislation and
           | making it difficult to do business in jurisdictions that
           | don't enforce similar privacy concepts. This will
           | increasingly become untenable for US businesses.
        
             | the-dude wrote:
             | I think he is pointing out the lack of legislation in the
             | US is a positive for these US based multinationals : they
             | extract valueable info from it, which they can use in other
             | markets too.
             | 
             | An upcoming EU startup which might want to target these
             | multinationals markets is at a disadvantage because they
             | can't.
        
         | mgh2 wrote:
         | So right: "This is now the classic Big Tech move: deploy money
         | and armies of lobbyists to fight meaningful reforms in the
         | shadows but claim to support them publicly."
        
         | x0x0 wrote:
         | We already have a de-facto national privacy law. It's the CPRA
         | and it takes effect 1 Jan 2023.
        
           | nixpulvis wrote:
           | Am I missing something? This is a California law, no?
           | 
           | Who is this "we" you speak of? Defacto-laws degrade my
           | concept of structure in society.
        
             | zucked wrote:
             | It is a California regulation, yes. I suspect that OP is
             | making reference to the fact that as California goes, often
             | so goes the national policy. Or, at least that's how it's
             | played out with regularity in the past.
        
             | x0x0 wrote:
             | CA is 14.6 of US GDP and 12% of the population. It's hard
             | to have a large business in the US that doesn't have $25m
             | revenue or handle the information of 100k CA residents, so
             | there is very broad applicability.
        
         | notreallyserio wrote:
         | Fully half of Congress these last few decades has been
         | violently opposed to basic privacy rights (with some of their
         | supporters literally violent). I'm not sure we can expect any
         | progress on this front until we see the congressional makeup
         | shift substantially.
        
         | whimsicalism wrote:
         | I'm curious how you expect the random people on HN to affect
         | change by "following" someone's proposals sans activism?
         | 
         | It seems like a "reasonable shortcut" around activism would
         | involve... actually accomplishing things? Otherwise I can just
         | say staying at home is a "reasonable shortcut" to getting to
         | work. It's certainly much shorter, but it doesn't really
         | accomplish the task at hand, no?
        
           | loteck wrote:
           | I'm suggesting that folks not interested in following the
           | developing activism around privacy instead follow Wyden's
           | work on this as their primary source of information, so that
           | they can be aware of the best work going on and have a higher
           | signal-to-noise ratio on this topic.
           | 
           | When it comes time to actually accomplish things, there is no
           | shortcut around action.
        
             | whimsicalism wrote:
             | Fair enough - I misinterpreted the meaning behind your
             | comment.
        
         | hulitu wrote:
         | > The question will be how they define privacy, and who will
         | write the law.
         | 
         | Just like in Germany. The rich will define the legislation and
         | will write the law. Privacy means "If i am rich you have no
         | right to look at my personal belongings". "If you are poor we
         | need your credit score and some account ballance at least".
        
       | umeshunni wrote:
       | Politicians make meaningless statements on Twitter. News at 11.
        
       | putlake wrote:
       | The cartoon playing out in the media once again reminds me of
       | Gell-Mann Amnesia because I used to work at Alexa. The lengths
       | that they go to for preserving consumer privacy actually seemed
       | absurd to me. Alexa engineers and applied scientists' lives would
       | have been much easier if they didn't take customer privacy -- and
       | their right to request and delete their data -- so seriously.
       | 
       | Yes, they are lobbying against regulation. But that's because no
       | business wants to have to deal with 50 different laws in 50
       | states. They're saying let's have one federal regulation so it's
       | easier to comply. It's not that they don't care about privacy --
       | they very much do. In fact, all these large companies want
       | regulation because it strengthens their moat. A startup won't
       | have the resources to comply with such regulations on Day 1. They
       | just want it to be reasonable because dealing with different
       | state-level regulations is too much.
        
         | reaperducer wrote:
         | _no business wants to have to deal with 50 different laws in 50
         | states._
         | 
         | Amazon already does this in a thousand ways, from labor laws to
         | labeling laws to paying thousands of different sales tax rates
         | to thousands of different states, towns, and other
         | municipalities.
         | 
         | If this was a startup, maybe you'd have a case. But it's a
         | trillion-dollar company. Suck it up, buttercup.
         | 
         | Or just do the simple thing: Follow the most restrictive state
         | laws. Somehow, following California emissions standards in the
         | 1970's didn't bankrupt the auto industry. And following
         | Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture standards didn't
         | bankrupt the food industry in the early part of the last
         | century.
         | 
         | Following the rules is a cost of doing business. If Amazon
         | can't afford to follow the rules, then it should go out of
         | business and let someone else innovate.
        
           | bllguo wrote:
           | not wanting to deal with 50 sets of different rules is
           | eminently reasonable. They have the resources to manage, so
           | no improvement is necessary? Is that really the argument
           | here?
        
         | sitkack wrote:
         | How about we regulate AND make it easy for startups to compete.
         | Living in world where the big corps can all responsibly handle
         | your data (what ever that _actually_ means) and competition
         | stagnates. Our brand of capitalism pretends in runs on
         | competition.
         | 
         | *edit and from the article, if Amazon is quietly curtailing and
         | preventing privacy laws on a state basis, what effort are they
         | using ton unify those laws on a federal basis?
         | 
         | > No major federal privacy legislation has passed Congress in
         | years because members have been deadlocked on the issue.
         | 
         | I assume Amazon is assisting here as well.
         | 
         | All large corporations have a lot of folks at the edges
         | actually doing the work. The internal controls for privacy are
         | strong, but those are nearly orthogonal to the larger corporate
         | goals. If you leak or improperly use customer data, that could
         | have huge ramifications from the political and legal fall out.
         | The amoral or immoral use of customer data at the whole org
         | level are what people are generally talking about when it comes
         | to data privacy from corporations.
        
           | 1cvmask wrote:
           | The laws are written to entrench incumbents and their moats.
           | Startups have neither the resources or the lobbyists to
           | compete while they try to get their bare feeble MVP off the
           | ground. The only way you can do that is if you carve out
           | exemptions for smaller companies. This law does not apply if
           | you have less than 300 employees and 100 million is net
           | turnover etc.
        
             | sitkack wrote:
             | How about we make privacy laws that are easy for _everyone_
             | to comply with. No moats, no exemptions.
             | 
             | We need strong personal privacy and the peeping tom
             | corporations can offer value other than attempting to hack
             | our wetware for profit.
        
             | mistrial9 wrote:
             | this cynical post misses the fact that corporate executives
             | also decry invasions of privacy when it hits they
             | themselves, their dear ones and their inner circles. You
             | can bet that there is privacy available, but how, from
             | whom, under what terms, and of course how much money does
             | it cost.
        
         | jjulius wrote:
         | The original Reuters article[0] about Amazon's lobbying efforts
         | addresses that point. It says:
         | 
         | > Amazon said it wants one national privacy law rather than a
         | "patchwork" of state regulations. Asked for details of any
         | federal privacy legislation it has supported, Amazon did not
         | name a specific bill. The company did provide three examples of
         | what it described as statements of public support by its
         | executives for federal consumer-privacy legislation.
         | 
         | > In those cases, Reuters found, the executives were expressing
         | either direct opposition to such a law, opposition to existing
         | state privacy protections, or advocacy for industry-friendly
         | measures opposed by consumer advocates. No major federal
         | privacy legislation has passed Congress in years because
         | members have been deadlocked on the issue.
         | 
         | The article goes into great detail about the efforts to stop
         | state-level legislation. If Amazon truly wanted to see a
         | federal-level law, then we should expect to see them putting a
         | similar sort of effort (or, hell, _any_ effort at all) at the
         | federal level towards getting one written and passed. The
         | simple fact is, we don 't.
         | 
         | Until we see that effort from them, anyone using the excuse
         | that, "State laws make this a difficult patchwork to navigate
         | so we want a federal law," is just largely spouting bullshit.
         | 
         | Edit: This is compounded by the fact that, as another user
         | pointed out, they already deal with patchworked state laws in
         | many other areas of their business, but they don't go to these
         | levels to stop that.
         | 
         | [0]https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-
         | report/amazon-p...
        
           | putlake wrote:
           | Thank you for sharing the original Reuters article. In that
           | article it says Amazon helped draft Virginia's privacy bill.
           | So I guess they are making exactly the effort you talked
           | about? But of course Reuters is calling them out on it:
           | 
           | "In Virginia, the company boosted political donations tenfold
           | over four years before persuading lawmakers this year to pass
           | an industry-friendly privacy bill that Amazon itself
           | drafted."
           | 
           | After a lot of insinuations and handwaving about lobbying,
           | the article has this short paragraph about what's actually in
           | the law: "The Virginia law allows technology companies to
           | track consumer searches on their platforms to create
           | marketing profiles. It gave tech companies exemptions to
           | collect and analyze smart-speaker recordings without customer
           | consent. And it prevented consumers from suing companies over
           | privacy violations."
           | 
           | Seems totally reasonable to me. Amazon already lets you get a
           | copy of your data and you can request for it to be deleted.
           | And from having worked there (note: I no longer work there
           | and don't have a dog in this fight), I know how the org ties
           | its own hands and makes things difficult for itself, just to
           | protect customer data and their right for that data to be
           | deleted forever.
        
             | magicalist wrote:
             | > _So I guess they are making exactly the effort you talked
             | about?_
             | 
             | > _The Virginia law allows technology companies to track
             | consumer searches on their platforms to create marketing
             | profiles. It gave tech companies exemptions to collect and
             | analyze smart-speaker recordings without customer consent.
             | And it prevented consumers from suing companies over
             | privacy violations. "_
             | 
             | > _Seems totally reasonable to me. Amazon already lets you
             | get a copy of your data and you can request for it to be
             | deleted._
             | 
             | Uh, what? Trying to give the benefit of the doubt but it
             | seems disingenuous to call that a privacy bill in a
             | positive sense, unclear what you mean is reasonable about
             | it (though I guess people can disagree on that point), and
             | while I can appreciate strong internal controls that are
             | difficult to codify in law, that seems orthogonal to any of
             | the merits of the "privacy" bill in question.
        
             | jjulius wrote:
             | >In that article it says Amazon helped draft Virginia's
             | privacy bill. So I guess they are making exactly the effort
             | you talked about?
             | 
             | They are not. What you just highlighted is a privacy bill
             | in the _state_ of Virginia. That is not at the federal
             | level.
             | 
             | >Seems totally reasonable to me.
             | 
             | That's fair, for you. For many others, giving "tech
             | companies exemptions to collect and analyze smart-speaker
             | recordings _without customer consent_ " is unsettling, as
             | is the fact that those customers would be "prevented ...
             | from suing companies over privacy violations."
             | 
             | >Amazon already lets you get a copy of your data and you
             | can request for it to be deleted. And from having worked
             | there (note: I no longer work there and don't have a dog in
             | this fight), I know how the org ties its own hands and
             | makes things difficult for itself, just to protect customer
             | data and their right for that data to be deleted forever.
             | 
             | In your initial comment, you said that, "The lengths that
             | they go to for preserving consumer privacy actually seemed
             | absurd to [you]". Yet the only reason Amazon lets you get a
             | copy of your data and allows you to request it to be
             | deleted is, per the same Reuters article, because the state
             | of California forced their hand on that issue. The article
             | states:
             | 
             | >Under a 2018 California law that passed despite Amazon's
             | opposition, consumers can access the personal data that
             | technology companies keep on them. After losing that state
             | battle, Amazon last year started allowing all U.S.
             | consumers to access their data.
             | 
             | >Amazon tried but failed to derail the 2018 California law,
             | the first of its kind in the United States, that allowed
             | consumers to request the personal data companies stored on
             | them. The 2018 Amazon document reviewing executive goals
             | discussed plans to oppose the measure, noting concern about
             | its "right to know" provisions for consumers. The 2018
             | public-policy update said of the proposal: "We strongly
             | prefer no regulation, but if regulation becomes inevitable,
             | we will seek amendment language to narrow any new
             | requirements to the greatest extent possible."
             | 
             | >The law's passage was considered a major failure
             | internally, a former Amazon public-policy employee said. An
             | Amazon legal-strategy document written after the bill
             | became law called the measure emblematic of "troubling
             | regulatory and legislative trends" that "caught us by
             | surprise."
             | 
             | So really, the only reason they "make things difficult for
             | [themselves], just to protect customer data and their right
             | for that data to be deleted forever" is because they're now
             | legally required to. If they truly went to "absurd" lengths
             | to protect consumer privacy, this obvious option should've
             | been something they offered to consumers beforehand and not
             | something that "caught [them] by surprise", which is a
             | phrase taken from an actual internal Amazon document.
             | Instead, _they fought against it_ and consider the fact
             | that they had to give consumers this option to be a  "major
             | failure".
        
         | jimkleiber wrote:
         | I was just having a conversation yesterday about how complex it
         | can be to follow 50 different state regulations, but also 200+
         | different national regulations.
         | 
         | Would the ideal case for you to be a federal (national)
         | regulation or a global regulation?
        
         | VRay wrote:
         | And yet you're collecting insane amounts of data with little or
         | no way to opt out of it, and storing that data in a country
         | where the secret police can rifle through it any time with
         | effectively no oversight.
        
           | putlake wrote:
           | You can ask to see the data Amazon has on you, and for it to
           | be deleted. If you ask for it to be deleted, they will delete
           | it all. And you can keep asking every month if you like. Not
           | to mention no one is forcing you to use Alexa in the first
           | place.
        
       | Brendinooo wrote:
       | A reminder that no one's making you use Amazon, especially the
       | Alexa stuff.
       | 
       | I invested in Mycroft to try and kickstart a privacy-focused
       | alternative; the hardware isn't there yet but they've made good
       | strides on the software side. You can invest too!
       | https://www.startengine.com/mycroftai
       | 
       | Make the world we want to live in.
        
         | r00fus wrote:
         | > A reminder that no one's making you use Amazon, especially
         | the Alexa stuff.
         | 
         | What happens when you kid's friends use and they visit? What
         | happens when everything is "Alexa enabled" and comes on by
         | default?
         | 
         | Voting with your wallet doesn't work against sufficiently large
         | vendor who's willing to lose money to achieve their goals.
        
           | gopher_space wrote:
           | Voting with your wallet isn't a situation where you're
           | concerned about the results. The point isn't so much to
           | change bad behavior as it is to disassociate yourself from
           | it.
           | 
           | If enough people become aware of the option and follow suit,
           | change might occur that you'd like. That isn't what motivates
           | you.
        
         | tyingq wrote:
         | Some of it is foisted on you whether you like it or not though.
         | Like your across-the-street neighbor's Ring doorbell sharing HD
         | footage of you, your house, etc, to law enforcement.
        
           | willis936 wrote:
           | I noticed an Alexa in a family member's bathroom recently.
           | Yeah, _I_ don 't have to own them, but that doesn't mean
           | their existence doesn't affect me. This is ripe for
           | legislation.
        
             | Brendinooo wrote:
             | Sure. I just don't want to get my hopes too high that I'll
             | get what I want in that arena...
        
         | hulitu wrote:
         | > A reminder that no one's making you use Amazon, especially
         | the Alexa stuff.
         | 
         | A reminder that even in EU Alexa seems to be ok ( from State
         | POV) even if it violates GDPR.
        
         | diveanon wrote:
         | Or just leave the US and stop participating in this failed
         | experiment.
         | 
         | You can't make things better when half the people around you
         | are making it worse.
        
           | Brendinooo wrote:
           | No thanks! I like my country just fine, and would prefer to
           | make it better if I can.
        
         | LogonType10 wrote:
         | Amazon delivery vans scan nearby WiFi networks for SSIDs and
         | tag that with geolocation. Amazon knows all about your _home
         | network_.
        
           | emptycan wrote:
           | That's quite a leap from "scan SSID" to knowing "all about
           | your home network" and sounds like hyperbole. What can I
           | gather from just passively scanning SSID and possibly putting
           | out some probes on a properly configured WiFi network? I
           | imagine some things like number of hosts, MAC addresses,
           | traffic stats - which is not ideal, but hardly what I would
           | call knowing "all about it".
           | 
           | I'm quite the privacy nut, but I always think its ridiculous
           | that people cry foul about what people do with data that is
           | being broadcast over the airwaves. If you really care about
           | privacy and don't trust WPA2 then don't fucking use WiFi!
        
             | nitrogen wrote:
             | _broadcast over the airwaves_
             | 
             | Intent matters a great deal. Very few people intend for
             | their wifi to reach their neighbors or the street. There is
             | already an expectation of privacy for visible and IR
             | wavelengths of the EM spectrum.
        
               | emptycan wrote:
               | I don't agree intent has any relevance here vs the other
               | issues at hand, and it is news to me that there is some
               | actual distinct expectation of privacy with regards to
               | wavelength as you state.
               | 
               | Visible and IR wavelengths don't reach outside through
               | non-windows, because of physics - but I don't think there
               | is any inherent expectation of privacy - quite the
               | opposite. If you leave your front bay window open and
               | people outside can see in, and you call the police for
               | privacy invasion they will laugh in your face in most
               | places - in fact if you are doing something deemed
               | obscene or distasteful you may be the one arrested - and
               | for good reason. They'll tell you to get something to
               | block the light like a curtain.
               | 
               | Whether or not people intend it - wifi signals easily
               | will make it to the street - and they're on shared
               | spectrum. Especially if you're going to pollute the
               | public ISM band - it's sort of on you to take whatever
               | precautions you need to stay safe whether that is better
               | encryption, a faraday cage or just abstaining and finding
               | alternative means.
               | 
               | If you start blasting loud noises 24/7 constantly in your
               | neighborhood and someone complains, is your response
               | going to be well, "I don't intend for this garbage to
               | reach my neighbors"?
        
           | mistrial9 wrote:
           | Google pioneered this on mass-scale, I dont doubt it
        
             | leecb wrote:
             | Skyhook started doing this in 2003; their technology was
             | used in earlier iPhone models to determine location without
             | using GPS.
             | 
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyhook_Wireless
             | 
             | EDIT: used by iPhone OS until version 3.2:
             | https://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-DGB-16945
        
           | jjulius wrote:
           | This is the first time I've heard that claim. Can you please
           | provide a source?
        
       | 1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote:
       | When reading reports like this, remember that HN commenters
       | frequently try to discredit major news media reports on privacy
       | issues by pointing to news websites' use of ad tech.
       | 
       | Watch for it. It has been going on for years. HN commenters will
       | infallibly comment on news reports relating to privacy issues by
       | pointing to news website use of ad tech.
       | 
       | The question to ask is would this argument have made a difference
       | here. Did these members of the Senate and House consider if a
       | Reuters website uses ad tech.
       | 
       | If the Reuters reporting is factually correct, then Reuters' use
       | of ad tech should not have any effect on the potential for others
       | to take action on the basis of Reuters reporting. As the saying
       | goes, "Don't shoot the messenger."
       | 
       | HN commenters keep trying to shoot the messenger. It only diverts
       | attention from any facts contained in the message.
        
       | comeonseriously wrote:
       | Wait, so Amazon allegedly undermined privacy by spending tons of
       | money lobbying, and Congress wants to pass legislation on
       | privacy. How about passing legislation on LOBBYING?
        
         | dhimes wrote:
         | This is the real problem. All meetings should be public and a
         | matter of public record. We may need some workarounds for
         | Defense/Sensitive issues, but standard conversations need to be
         | disclosed.
        
       | encryptluks2 wrote:
       | US lawmakers can't even take on robocallers and spammers, so I
       | don't have much faith in their ability. When they are willing to
       | actually impose harsh criminal liability on companies and
       | employees like they do for citizens, then things like this won't
       | be an issue.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | criddell wrote:
         | I had great hope when I heard about the STIR/SHAKEN protocol
         | [1].
         | 
         | It's been in effect for five months now and I think I get more
         | spam calls than ever before.
         | 
         | [1]: https://www.fcc.gov/call-authentication
        
           | encryptluks2 wrote:
           | Same here. I feel like of they'd just label robocallers
           | terrorist and treat them as such, it would be a lot harder to
           | find people willing to take that risk even in foreign
           | countries. Sanctions would go a long way as well in other
           | countries taking it more seriously.
        
         | dboreham wrote:
         | US lawmakers _are_ the robocallers and spammers.
        
       | aww_dang wrote:
       | "U.S. lawmakers call for regulatory capture to further benefit
       | the donor classes, because they _deeply_ _care_ about your
       | privacy... "
       | 
       | Are these not the same politicians that passed mass surveillance
       | legislation?
        
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       (page generated 2021-11-22 23:02 UTC)