[HN Gopher] An introverts guide to increasing energy
___________________________________________________________________
An introverts guide to increasing energy
Author : sysadm1n
Score : 263 points
Date : 2021-11-21 11:39 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (ashleyjanssen.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (ashleyjanssen.com)
| dahart wrote:
| > Being an introvert means, in broad terms, that you spend energy
| when you are with other people and you need alone time to
| recharge your energy. [...] Be intentional about who you give
| your energy to
|
| This in a way clarifies for me why I don't like the word
| "introvert". I have always wanted to be intentional about who I
| give my energy to, and being in groups can undermine that
| intention in proportion to group size.
|
| Introversion tends to imply that someone is inside their head,
| concerned with self, and prefers no interaction to some. For me,
| the difference isn't internal vs external, it's more about small
| vs large, or maybe intimate conversation vs public conversation.
|
| I actually seek and crave interaction, though, even though the
| word "introvert" fits me better than "extrovert" most of the
| time. I just prefer personal interaction over groups. I want one
| on one discussions, I want a deeper interaction than what happens
| at parties, I want to find people with crossover interests or
| people interested in making things. Or even if it's making small-
| talk, I would rather engage a single person than several.
|
| Maybe I'm overwhelmed with group dynamics; people at parties can
| be complicated trying to impress each other, and it makes giving
| and getting attention difficult and prone to superficial
| demonstrations. Is this why I prefer individual sports over team
| sports?
| MeinBlutIstBlau wrote:
| People who put a label on what they are just want to identify
| with some group to pretend that they're special.
| [deleted]
| mattlondon wrote:
| It bothers me when people just say "you are introverted" or "you
| are extroverted". Labelling people like this (i.e. a binary one
| or the other choice) is not helpful. Don't 100% match the
| definition for X? Then you are Y!
|
| I think in reality it is better to acknowledge that - like many
| things - introversion/extroversion is a broad scale with many
| shades of grey, and your personal position on the scale can and
| does change from situation to situation.
|
| You will ebb and flow over time - don't let over people tell you
| how to think and behave! :)
| scoot wrote:
| It says as much in the friendly article:
|
| _Introversion and extroversion are also a spectrum rather than
| binary._
|
| (They even bolded it.)
| ubercore wrote:
| I agree with you, but the article explicitly covers this, and
| isn't making a binary argument for introversion vs
| extroversion.
| slibhb wrote:
| > I think in reality it is better to acknowledge that - like
| many things - introversion/extroversion is a broad scale with
| many shades of grey, and your personal position on the scale
| can and does change from situation to situation.
|
| "Everything is shades of grey" seems a lot less helpful than a
| nice binary option that actually renders a judgement.
| bloqs wrote:
| It might bother you, but extroversion and introversion are both
| ends of a rigorously documented personality trait, one of the
| Big Five.
|
| Everyone, (literally) is in one camp or another. Particularly
| stable people will sit around the median boundary, but will
| ultimately conform, even if slightly, to one camp or another.
| a0zU wrote:
| Yes, well documented in psychology, a field whose
| professionals even acknowledge as a psuedoscience, if a
| useful one.
|
| >Particularly stable people will sit around the median
| boundary.
|
| Ok, so you're saying it is more than just a boolean then?
| matsemann wrote:
| It was however very useful for me when I learned the labels ~10
| years ago. Before that, one was either outgoing or shy. I felt
| like neither.
|
| Suddenly there was a new axis as well, explaining what I felt.
| And news articles started popping up, people talking about the
| concept etc. Made it much easier being an introvert.
| jasode wrote:
| _> It bothers me when people just say "you are introverted" or
| "you are extroverted". Labelling people like this [...] is not
| helpful [...] and does change from situation to situation._
|
| I like to label myself as _" introverted"_ because it matches
| my _stable trait_ regardless of changing activities. Similar to
| labeling myself as _" right-handed"_ because it's an underlying
| stable trait even though I press Ctrl+C on the keyboard with my
| left hand. Using my left hand in many circumstances that change
| from situation to situation still does not change my "right-
| handedness". Likewise, being at a social event still does not
| change my "introversion".
|
| But since the word "introvert" bugs some people, I've
| previously asked what an _alternative label_ could be to
| describe a stable preference but nobody suggested one yet:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27794741
| toolz wrote:
| If you're renting golf clubs, knowing you're right handed is
| useful. I struggle to find the equivalent use for
| introvert/extrovert label. Maybe you have a good example?
| sdoering wrote:
| Maybe I, not OP, can chime in with an example. Since
| labeling myself an introvert I was better able to know what
| attending bigger social come togethers (like team events,
| family reunions, conferences and the like meant to my
| "energy" level.
|
| I liked how in another thread a commenter described this
| "energy" as maybe the energy necessary for our brains to
| keep the shields up.
|
| Attending a social event to me means I know it will deplete
| me. It will require me to find a way of refueling
| afterwards. I now know better when and why to make this
| trade off. Because there are benefits to attending certain
| situations/events - I just need to balance them for my mind
| and body with taking care of myself.
|
| It is like doing a grueling but necessary work. I know it
| needs to be done and I know how to take care for me
| afterwards.
|
| And on the other hand it also helped me to understand, why
| certain situations (like being with a few select friends
| and talking all night) left me invigorated and provided
| said "energy".
|
| So labeling myself that way provided a heuristic for
| managing my mental state and energy level better than
| before.
| atoav wrote:
| As someone who would call themselves introverted as well,
| the most useful function of that label is, that it gives
| people the chance to classify my reactions to them more
| easily.
|
| Me not being in contact with you every day of the week
| means nothing about me liking or disliking you.
|
| Of course "introvert" is a broad label and no single
| individual fits that definition squarely -- however so are
| most ofher words we made up to describe the inner life of
| people.
|
| While I would welcome a more differenciated vocabular to
| describe how we are inside, at some point you will have to
| over-generalize if you want to use it in daily
| communications.
| lolinder wrote:
| For me, it's very similar to your golf clubs example:
| knowing that I'm right handed allows me to make an informed
| decision about what clubs to purchase. Knowing that I'm
| introverted allows me to make an informed decision about
| how to plan my free time.
| 08-15 wrote:
| You are obviously an NF temperament, most probably the ENFP
| personality type.
|
| Extraversion/Introversion is the first distinction of the Myers
| Briggs Type Indicator. I find it remarkable that exactly the
| people who get incensed at the MBTI "because everything is
| shades of gray and you can't sort people into neat 16 bins",
| are those who are at the very very end of at least two of the
| four scales.
|
| > don't let over people tell you how to think and behave!
|
| Ironic, isn't it?
| mattlondon wrote:
| INTJ last time I did it.
|
| But then it varies depending on what mood I am in the day I
| do it.
|
| That is my point - don't label people with "oh typical ENFP
| response!"/"You are ENFP - this is why you think what you
| think" It is unhelpful at best, and at worst a slippery-slope
| way of dismissing people's views and opinions - without
| extreme care and self-monitoring you risk (consciously or
| not) making the same snap judgements based on other aspects
| of people "Oh typical gender/race/religion/age response! This
| person is X so they alway do/think Y". Dangerous.
| tgaj wrote:
| I will never understand the idea of "type". There are like
| billions people on earth and for some some reason all of them
| can be described as one of 16 types. Just that. There so many
| reasons that people do what they do and behave like they
| behave that you can't just simplify that to 16.
| SavantIdiot wrote:
| That's because it's a "team sorter" that internet discussion
| boards respond to like catnip. It is about as relevant as
| Meyers-Briggs or horoscopes.
| [deleted]
| morsch wrote:
| Not so much a guide to increasing energy than a guide to draining
| it less (by identifying which social situations feel draining and
| having less of them). Not bad advice, per se, but not exactly
| earth shattering.
| gdsdfe wrote:
| For the nth time the Myers-Briggs test is bogus, there's no
| scientific evidence that it works!
| tgaj wrote:
| Some people feel better with simple labels, I get it. That's
| how our brain works. But still Myers-Briggs is only a toy and
| some people use it like a sophisticated tool.
| gerbilly wrote:
| Introversion may also appear on Myers-Briggs, but it _also_ one
| of the 'Big Five' personality factors, one of the most robust
| findings in psychology.
| sweuder wrote:
| Literally in the article as soon as Myers-Briggs was brought
| up:
|
| "Personality tests are full of broad generalities that should
| be taken with a grain of salt. Instead, personality tests
| should be treated as tools for self-reflection. They are
| indicators of tendencies, not hard and fast rules."
|
| Just a thing to help you think about yourself, not a diagnosis.
|
| Extraversion/Introversion is pretty deeply embedded in
| psychological theory, even if its not easily measured directly.
| FWIW
| cortesoft wrote:
| This is all great.... except I have kids. I dont get to choose to
| have alone time. I can't tell my two year old that I just need an
| hour to relax.
| rsyring wrote:
| An option: play the Q-tip game. Get any safe small object that
| fits in your hand. Show it to your kid and tell them the game
| is to get the object from your hand. Then lay down, put your
| hand under your body, relax, and say "go."
|
| Rollover every little bit and let them "get it" from you every
| 5 mins or so. Kids usually love this, there is low energy
| physical engagement from you, but mostly you can just rest and
| enjoy the fun they are having. Can get hours of "rest" out of
| this with a two year old.
| [deleted]
| mrsmee89 wrote:
| As someone who typically gets their energy depleted around
| people, there are certain people that increase my energy. There
| are also times where I almost need to interact with people on a
| biological level.
|
| Listening to my body is the thing that weirdly, used to take up a
| lot of energy because I wasn't used to/ allowed to as a child. So
| I was constantly making difficult real-time decisions.
|
| As an adult, I've learned how to listen to my body and crucially
| adhering to it's signals. As someone who like to think, perhaps
| too much, its the best investment I've ever made.
| redisman wrote:
| I've noticed that there are some people who for me are a
| neutral. Mostly close family like my kids and wife. It's not
| draining or regenerating. No person regenerates my introvert
| energy. I don't really get any alone time anymore but I manage.
| I always thought I would die without big chunks of daily alone
| time but you get used to anything I guess
| rented_mule wrote:
| My story is quite similar. I was always confused that I
| _needed_ to be with people yet it drained me so much. The focus
| on observing my energy, as the article highlights, helped me
| figure things out. Somebody who figured this out about me
| before I did called me an "introverted people person". That
| seemed like an oxymoron to me, but it turns out it's exactly
| right!
|
| I was in a very social role at work (managing managers) and
| decided I needed to be an engineer again, partly because the
| social nature of the job was so draining. The only thing that
| kept me going in management was one-on-ones with certain people
| who gave me energy. That helped me realize that I'm quite
| social when I'm with one other person that I know well and
| enjoy. It's groups and relative strangers that drain me. Since
| figuring this out, almost all my social engagements are with
| one friend at a time. It's so nice to consistently get energy
| from my social life now!
| loevborg wrote:
| My experience is so close to yours, it's scary, thanks for
| writing this!
| mckirk wrote:
| Could you elaborate a bit on how you weren't allowed to listen
| to your body as a child, and what kind of difficult real-time
| decisions that meant you had to make?
|
| Also, how did you work on improving that as an adult?
| wpietri wrote:
| Not the poster, but it's very familiar to me. I grew up in
| the midwest, and a friend from there says, "In the midwest we
| don't have bodies or feelings."
|
| As a kid, I clearly remember having an epiphany: when people
| asked my how I was doing, they did not actually want to know
| how I was doing. There were a number of appropriate answers,
| "fine" first among them. If you watch the first 20 seconds of
| "How to Speak Minnesotan", it's this dynamic:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-wx11l3nr4
|
| The best way to convincingly say you're fine is to not know
| otherwise. So by my late teens I was very good at not knowing
| how I was feeling. After 20 years in California, I have
| unlearned a lot of this. Yoga especially helped, as at least
| with my instructor it was basically 90 minutes of learning to
| pay attention to the subtle feelings in my body.
| Unsurprisingly, paying attention to my emotional and physical
| health has a lot of benefits, so I am a much happier person
| and would never go back.
| mrsmee89 wrote:
| @wpietri sums up what I meant very well.
|
| I'll just add, a concrete method of improving my ability to
| "listen to my body" is shifting my attention to a specific
| part of my body especially when I feel vague discomfort. I
| tend to focus on my torso or chest. This really helps center
| my experience around noticing instead of judging.
|
| As a bonus, this shift in perspective also allows me to
| connect with others more authentically.
| wintermutestwin wrote:
| >As someone who typically gets their energy depleted around
| people, there are certain people that increase my energy. There
| are also times where I almost need to interact with people on a
| biological level.
|
| I agree and think that the introvert/extrovert designation is
| totally relative to the specific players and the specifics of
| their connecting. At the end of the day, people really want to
| be heard and maybe these people we label as extroverts are just
| better at interjecting their story so that people listen to
| them. I wonder if any studies have been done that measure the
| amount of time a subject spends talking vs. listening against
| the their experience of being energy positive vs. negative.
| bluekmc82 wrote:
| I love these types of articles. I have joined many FB introvert
| groups.
|
| Seeing that there are others like me gives me a lot of comfort.
| I'm learning to adjust my expectations of myself more than trying
| to radically adjust myself.
| whilestanding wrote:
| You also may have joined yet another victim class echo chamber.
| bluekmc82 wrote:
| I don't think so. I look at it like understanding any
| biological design. But I understand what you're saying.
| jplr8922 wrote:
| I've read 'Personality Types' (the book where Jung define
| introversion and extraversion) many times by now. It is hard to
| understand at first, by now I am amazed about how his concepts
| are interpreted differently than what he intended. Introversion
| is a kind of filtering mechanism where your self concept (ego)
| overweight the importance of internal stimulis over external one
| (and vice versa for an extrovert).
|
| If a subject feels 'obligated' to respond to an external stimulus
| (such as a party) and to expend energy in that direction, that is
| extraversion. If you need to learn how to monitor internal
| stimulus such as fatigue levels or who makes you feel good, that
| sound like an extravert learning how to do introversion in order
| to manage himself. This process of learning how to get out of
| your usual favored way is part of what Jung called
| 'individuation', psychological development which starts in
| adulthood.
|
| When trying to understand the intro-extra spectrum, its not the
| behavior that matters the most, it is the cognition of the
| subject. Why did you stay alone last friday night? Is it because
| you had a hard week and you are tired (internal stimulus)? Do you
| avoid parties because you do not care that much about the feeling
| of the music (internal stimulus), and would rather to clearly
| hear _others people stories and opinions_ (external stimulus)?
| How does the subject narrates his story?
| wpietri wrote:
| I think it's better just to see the modern uses of the terms as
| distinct from Jung's. Term drift away from intent happens a
| lot. New York is now old, and St Francis of Assisi would not
| see much familiar in today's San Francisco.
| jplr8922 wrote:
| Well if my sister tells me that her last date was 'such of a
| introvert' I am not going to start a lecture of Jung. However
| if we discuss adaptation from one way of being into another,
| discussing the process on self transformation in the terms of
| the guys who described it first might be helpful. I
| personally think that the modern use of introversion and
| extraversion are very narrow, and limit the scope of personal
| growth.
| wpietri wrote:
| Sure. And I'm saying that you're probably better off
| finding other terms for the parts you value. As much as I
| love, say, Shakespearean English, I'm only going to use it
| in a context where other people are already familiar with
| what I'm quoting. If I want to communicate a point with a
| general audience, I'll recast whatever insight I'm
| borrowing into something that makes sense to them without
| extra effort.
| rammy1234 wrote:
| Constant judgement I experience in a social interaction is a big
| drain but I learning to overcome by ignoring this fact and focus
| on interesting aspects of theirs. You can't build on weakness you
| see.
| jefc1111 wrote:
| The graphic for "What introverts do to recharge at parties"
| really resonates with me. I'm going to expand on that by
| mentioning that one of the reasons I wanted to have children was
| as an accessory at social events (especially weddings - the most
| terrifying of all). It has worked out really well, thankfully.
| Especially at weddings.
| jbverschoor wrote:
| I am introverted but identify as extraverted.
| jbverschoor wrote:
| Not sure why I get downvoted. Maybe it's full of rainbow
| snowflakes.
| avindroth wrote:
| Everyone is introverted in a different way, and actually the best
| thing is let yourself be introverted for a while and let your
| mind figure out what's going on. Note by my estimation this can
| take 12-24 months, which may be time you do not have. But
| oftentimes 12-24 months to sort out your psychological limits
| (permanently) is pretty cheap.
| togaen wrote:
| I thought I was an introvert for a long time. Turned out I was
| actually a misanthrope. Weird.
| Borrible wrote:
| Oh, that is interesting.
|
| I always thought I'm a misfit, but I'm plain vanilla evil.
| Mostly harmless, getting the skeletons out of peoples closets
| and putting them in their fridge or arrange them on their
| sofas, so to speak.
|
| Back then I thought I do it to help truth coming to light.
| Giving a hint to get better. But I realized, I do it to scare
| them and have fun watching them.
|
| ...
|
| Nah, just kidding, really.
|
| So, how did you learn about yourself being a misanthrope?
| natrys wrote:
| I don't think introversion/extroversion is a useful
| categorisation. Because I think it boil down just to what type
| of people or social situation one likes/dislikes. Introverts
| are uncomfortable with wider spectrum of people/situations, but
| they still do just fine/normally amongst people they like.
| hliyan wrote:
| For over 25 years I wondered why social events drained me and
| what neurological phenomenon the metaphor "energy" stood for
| (which this article and many others like it don't seem to bother
| investigating). I've recently come to realize that it's the
| extent to which you see other human beings as a threat, which
| causes your brain to keep its "shields up", which can feel
| exhausting. After a observing myself a lot during social
| interactions, I've noticed that I feel drained to the extent I
| think the people around me can potentially judge me: I feel
| highly drained during extended family events, class reunions or
| ceremonies, but I feel perfectly fine amongst a small group of
| friends who have a don't-give a-sh*t attitude toward social
| propriety. I've also noticed that alcohol (a disinhibitor) can
| dramatically reduce the drain. It's also significantly reduced if
| I find a table with a few people I like, and get engrossed in a
| deep discussion and end up forgetting that I'm surrounded by
| other tables.
|
| Perhaps this energy we speak of is the energy the brain expends
| to continuously compute the requirements of the social contract
| in members of our species who don't have it sufficiently
| hardwired.
| Stupulous wrote:
| Adding a bit to the other side of the equation, I think
| extraversion and introversion are independent spectrums. The
| 'introverts get energy from being alone, extraverts get energy
| from social interactions" explanation implies that introverts
| can function as hermits in total isolation and extraverts have
| no need for 'me time'; this is not my experience. Almost
| everyone has some baseline social needs that need to be met,
| and almost everyone needs some quantity of time alone.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| As an alternative to alcohol, I found a low dose of cbd oil
| helps "drop the shields" without any side effects.
| DanHulton wrote:
| I recently had a similar epiphany, but for me, the judgement I
| found was internal. Essentially, when in social situations
| where I do not understand all of the expectations (my SO, long-
| standing friends, familiar work settings), I'm not able to be
| in the moment, and have what I have described as a "monitor
| process" running, analyzing the situation, my interactions,
| peoples reactions to them, etc. Running that "monitor process"
| (yes, I'm a computer nerd, how did you know) is _exhausting,_
| but effective.
|
| For example, people say I'm good with kids, but it is
| definitely not natural. I'm redlining that process to evaluate
| the situation and react appropriately. I know friends who just
| "recharge" when hanging out with kids. I'd say _they're_ good
| with kids, I can just fake it for an afternoon (and then I need
| a nap).
|
| I've also noticed it with D&D. I enjoy getting out and playing
| it with friends, but also, it becomes a group of new people,
| kinda, and you're a new person, kinda, so again that "monitor
| process" comes into play, and by the time we're done a session
| and I get home, I just kind of need to crawl into a chair and
| read a book in silence for an hour.
|
| But definitely, absolutely, it's that judgement you mention
| that's a primary factor, I guess I just see that judgement
| (personally) coming as more of an internal force.
| hsrhtt wrote:
| I just made this account to say that this really resonated with
| me. I also have a decent size of group of friends who I can
| relax and feel energized afterwards. We also drink and
| generally don't have a lot of social formalities.
|
| But nothing drains my energy like my family and in-laws. We are
| from developing country with a lot of social and religious
| rules. And whenever I am with them I am not being myself. I
| have to keep my shield up.
|
| Also I disagree with another sibling commenter said that the
| most of judging is only in our own mind. In my case when I
| turned 40, I decided enough is enough, I will just be myself
| with my family. I slowly lowered my guards, talked about movies
| that I really like, how I really treat my kids, what I really
| do on weekends, stopped eating obscene amount of food with
| them, etc.
|
| And immediately, there was onslaught of judgemental comments,
| comments about accepting our new countries culture and
| forgetting our better culture (\s). But what really bothered me
| was the comments about my parenting style and how I was ruining
| my kids' life.
| musingsole wrote:
| It's only paranoia if they aren't judging you.
| mikevm wrote:
| It's also possible that you might have social anxiety, btw.
| Regarding introversion and "energy" -
| https://www.quietrev.com/why-introverts-and-extroverts-are-d...
| hliyan wrote:
| Would you say introversion and social anxiety are two
| distinct phenomena? I always viewed these as existing on the
| same spectrum.
| tgaj wrote:
| I have this mental model that introversion is something you
| are born with and social anxiety is something that you can
| get during you life (for example, because of how other
| people treated you)
| wpietri wrote:
| Personally, I say they are related. For some years I
| thought I had social anxiety, meaning irrational feelings
| of anxiety triggered by social situations.
|
| In retrospect, I think of myself as a gregarious introvert.
| I love people but they wear me the fuck out. For many years
| I just pushed past those feelings, specifically not
| listening to my body as the author recommends in step 4. So
| I was in effect gradually training my nervous system that
| "social situation = pain". An important function of animal
| nervous systems is learned aversion to painful situations.
| So my feelings of anxiety about social situations were not
| irrational, but _correct and proportionate_.
|
| Once I started taking my own health and feelings seriously,
| what I saw as social anxiety gradually dissipated.
|
| For those interested in the mechanisms here, I highly
| recommend "The Body Keeps the Score". It finally gave me an
| intellectual framework for a lot of my experiences around
| this.
| psyc wrote:
| I thought the consensus was that they're distinct. In my
| case, I never experience any social anxiety (aside from
| public speaking) but I consider myself extremely
| introverted. I strongly prefer to be by myself doing solo
| activities, and never feel the need to see other people.
| But when I do encounter others, it's a perfectly
| comfortable experience and I can be as friendly and
| charming as anybody.
| lawwantsin17 wrote:
| The consensus is confused.
| hliyan wrote:
| In my case, funnily enough, I find public speaking much
| more enjoyable than attending, say, a wedding. I guess
| this is very multi-dimensional thing...
| penjelly wrote:
| not sure if this is backed up by scientific data or not but
| this is an interesting perspective ive never considered.
|
| Anecdotally: I notice as my confidence grows I enjoy social
| gatherings more and am less tired afterwards, whereas 5 years
| ago almost every social event would be tiring, now some are
| actually energizing.
| hliyan wrote:
| I've noticed the same. I think self-confidence grows with age
| and we become more and more comfortable in our own skin. But
| then at some point (perhaps in our fifties) we pass a
| threshold and enter the witty curmudgeon territory.
|
| Edit: on the science bit. Yes, this is merely what I tell
| myself. But if we were to test this, perhaps we can do so by
| monitoring the glucose consumption of brains of introverts in
| different types of social situations?
| tartoran wrote:
| I actually find large groups distracting and disorienting to
| the point that I have a hard time decoding conversations and
| that extra churn is what exhausts me in the first place. Also,
| trying to keep the mask on is also a bit exhausting so the
| moment I tell everyone that Im introverted and no longer have
| to pretend Im not things start to improve a bit.
|
| Having said that, I think you have a point with the threat
| perception part. I do enjoy social contexts where I feel like I
| fit in and can be myself. The problem seems to be more with
| social contexts I am obligated to participate in, where I have
| to put on a mask of interest; probably the threat is to be
| found that you're really not interested into that interaction.
| amelius wrote:
| > I have a hard time decoding conversations and that extra
| churn is what exhausts me in the first place
|
| Yes. The more you shy away from big gatherings, the harder it
| becomes to decode audio signals in noisy environments. It
| also doesn't help if you're much smaller or taller than other
| people.
| robryan wrote:
| At some events like weddings people insist on having very
| loud music on making it very hard to hold any kind of
| conversation at the same time as not really being socially
| acceptable not to try and have them.
| astrophysics wrote:
| Wow, maybe this explains why I can't hear anything in large
| groups of people.
| Vedor wrote:
| Just curious, have you checked your hearing recently?
|
| For a long time I believed that I can't hear anything in
| large groups because I'm introvert (which I am) and large
| groups exhaust me. Turned out to be hearing problem.
|
| And the thing is that I never had a feeling that my
| hearing is poor. But some day I got tinnitus that did not
| go away over time, and after some tests I learnt that I'm
| almost deaf for high-frequency tones. It impairs speech
| understanding, especially when there is a lot of
| background noise like on busy street... or family
| gatherings.
| hliyan wrote:
| This gives me an idea. Next time I'm going to see how much
| drainage I experience when I'm socializing with people I
| don't mind offending!
| tgaj wrote:
| It could be also symptom of ADHD.
| ca98am79 wrote:
| For me the draining part is small talk. I don't really feel
| confident in my ability to small talk and I also really don't
| like to do it. But I feel it is a kind of bonding ritual
| between strangers that I don't understand. I feel that most
| people don't even think about it and can just do it naturally,
| like riding a bike. But for me it is like juggling ten balls.
| Even checking out groceries with a cashier is really draining.
| brhsagain wrote:
| I used to feel this way until I heard an explanation that
| made it click ever since. Small talk is a channel with a
| single bit of information, which is "I am not your enemy."
| This is different from "I am your friend." It's the same
| reason monkeys pull bugs out of each other's fur.
|
| All people want from you when making small talk is for you to
| talk about the inane things in your life with a positive
| energy. The inane chatter shows you're normal and relatable
| (you're someone who's going to enjoy the latest TV show and
| get burgers for lunch, instead of shooting up a school), and
| the positive energy shows you're not harboring ill will
| towards them.
| pessimizer wrote:
| > The inane chatter shows you're normal and relatable
| (you're someone who's going to enjoy the latest TV show and
| get burgers for lunch, instead of shooting up a school)
|
| "Relatable" carries a lot of water here. If you're a woman
| in a roomful of men, somebody who grew up rich in a room
| full of people who grew up poor, or maybe don't enjoy
| watching the latest TV shows or eating burgers, this
| doesn't reduce the stress of small talk.
|
| I totally agree with what you're saying about the goal of
| small talk, but that the goal is simple authentication
| doesn't make the implementation simple or hacking it
| trivial. People are sniffing around for in-group stuff, and
| its a test you can fail quickly.
|
| Also, if you fail, now you've fallen into the "shooting up
| a school" category.
|
| So my answer: talk about the weather today, in the recent
| past, and projected into the future. Discuss how you both
| arrived at the place you are at (traffic, routes...) If you
| were both around when someone else said something
| interesting earlier, talk about that. Seize upon any
| answers that hint at something the person you're talking to
| is passionate about but that you are _not_ passionate
| about. Ask questions about those. If they start to bore you
| to death, act like it 's all too complicated for you, and
| either GOTO 10 or drift away. If they don't, then you're
| having a good time and learning something you didn't know
| before.
| roofone wrote:
| Similar: I think of it as the "I'm not crazy and/or
| dangerous" indicator. It also allows you to assess how
| compatible you'll be conversationally.
|
| It's the handshake portion of the Human Data Exchange
| Protocol (HDEP). I'm fine with that, but similarly to the
| previous poster, I'm lost when small talk goes beyond the
| first few transactions. I usually don't know what to say
| and/or don't usually care about what they are saying.
| fffact wrote:
| So you are suggesting I should be making small talk to
| reassure people?
| peruvian wrote:
| Yeah this is it. Once you stop thinking "all these people will
| probably judge me or dislike me" or "I need to be on the
| defensive" when you don't even know the people there, social
| events become much easier.
| ww520 wrote:
| Describing the "energy" as the mental energy spent coping with
| the social environment is a very good insight. I found myself
| exhausted after a long conversation, especially one to one
| highly technical discussion. If it's a group and I can sit back
| to listen to others and to interject from time to time, I don't
| feel drained.
| amelius wrote:
| Yes, I sometimes wonder if I have "social impostor syndrome",
| and if this is what causes all the energy drainage.
| ksec wrote:
| Very Similar here.
|
| I have recently discovered I get a lot of energy from Teaching
| kids or even just watching Kids play. Playing around with them
| may drain my physical energy, but mentally I feel so much
| better every time. Whenever I see them I see infinite
| possibilities. The world is so much better it is now than it
| ever was, despite I know all the shit that is happening in real
| world. And I have no problem speaking with Groups of parents in
| any social settings. And in a social event where our interest
| aligned like some technology forum.
|
| But as you said I do get burnout in my previous settings with
| Business Meetings, I have to shield up, and after been through
| a lot of shit I know it is basically war zone. Not just outside
| but often a lot of in-flighting within companies. It is tiring.
| Especially when I am almost 100% correct in predicting outcome,
| while often tasked with fixing it. And the people judging on
| you because you are XYZ. I still remember the day I got
| promoted everybody's faces changed. And then later you know
| they all want a piece of you.
|
| And an unpopular opinion, I really like Peter Thiel's take on
| it, most extrovert are low conviction people. And they are also
| the ones that tends to suffer from herd mentality. While also
| offering their herd views to the others since extrovert tends
| to run the world. And that is how you get herd mentality from
| top to bottom.
| MichailP wrote:
| I must add that this feeling "people judging you" is mostly
| YOU. That is we THINK what other people are thinking, as we
| don't have direct link to their brains. The intensity of this
| feeling is related to your personal feeling of your self worth,
| which again doesn't have much to do with any realistic
| criteria. From my personal experience people love you, find you
| interesting, miss you when you are not there, etc. much more
| that you think.
| lgrialn wrote:
| I had an upbringing where I was very much judged. And even in
| adulthood, my experience is that I like myself fairly well,
| but I am well aware that other people do not normally take to
| me, are not capable of grasping what I'm about or seeing any
| value in it, etc.
| pessimizer wrote:
| I don't think this is completely true, because I'm fairly
| sure I have an accurate idea about how people feel about me,
| and am rarely surprised. I do think it is more true for some
| than others.
|
| Like you, I blame it on the Illusion of Transparency: when we
| try to guess what other people are thinking about us, we do
| so with complete awareness of ourselves, so that model we
| make of other people is unnaturally good at seeing our flaws,
| _especially_ the ones we 're making an effort to conceal. Not
| only are people generally great at lying (they're not going
| to see through you), but they're likely also not paying that
| much attention to you.
| GDC7 wrote:
| > The intensity of this feeling is related to your personal
| feeling of your self worth
|
| Calling none sense. IT'S NOT IN YOUR HEAD!
|
| There are objective levels to it.
|
| Say I work in film making and specialize on actors wardrobes
| , I can make a good living, perhaps even reach a 7 figures
| net worth.
|
| Fast forward award seasons comes around, during the
| afterparties everybody wants to talk and interact with the
| stars. Even if in my head my self-confidence is sky high and
| I am super social, approaching everybody, these people would
| avoid me and judge me as a weirdo, both during the party (to
| my face) and afterwards.
|
| In that moment I am an obstacle to their real social goal of
| the night: interacting with Jennifer Lawrance, taking a
| picture with her, or even getting any reaction from her
| (including negative ones and extremely negative ones such as
| flipping the bird or telling people off).
|
| This is an extreme example , of course, but generally people
| go to social gatherings and have a pretty clear idea of the
| person or even the profile of people they want to interact
| with.
|
| This means that people do , in fact, judge or pre-classify or
| create standings in their minds, and if you aren't one of
| those sought after people then an interaction with you will
| most likely received as a disappointment compared to an ideal
| scenario that they had built in their own minds.
|
| This means that you'd be judged.
| roofone wrote:
| I don't fully disagree, but I am constantly judging others
| (much to my dismay). And, then I also see articles like
| "Research indicates that only about half of perceived
| friendships are mutual"
| (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12246819).
| leobg wrote:
| There is this phenomenon called "the mere exposure effect":
|
| Merely exposing yourself to a situation again and again will
| lessen your anxiety and put the kinds of automations in place,
| in terms of perception and behavior, that will make you feel
| "comfortable" (i.e. allow you to handle the baseline situation
| on autopilot, so your energy is free for higher level
| functions, such as strategy or simply enjoyment).
|
| This means that, being an introvert, you can make yourself
| tremendously more comfortable in extraverted [1] situations
| simply by going to a bar or a coffee shop twice a week and
| spending time there. Simply being there slowly gets you used to
| the environment. (It's very similar to desensitizing a dog to
| fireworks, for example. Sorry! :))
|
| Also, I suspect this is what actually creates these differences
| in personality types in the first place. Some people get really
| comfortable being by themselves, and others get really
| comfortable being around others. It starts in early childhood,
| and becomes a self reinforcing cycle. In many ways, it makes
| sense to do more of that which you're already good at. Changing
| your environment is often more profitable than trying to change
| yourself.
| Zababa wrote:
| Very insightful comment, thanks for sharing. I was thinking
| recently about how shame plays a big role in my relations with
| other people, but I hadn't connected that to social anxiety and
| introversion.
| freetinker wrote:
| Energy probably = dopamine levels in this context. Also, what
| you describe exactly mirrors my experience.
| paulsutter wrote:
| Public speaking seemed impossible to me until I actually had
| something I wanted to say to a given group of people. Then it
| felt natural. The same applies to parties or events. I enjoy
| them if I have something I want to discuss with the people
| present
|
| Of course either case is fairly rare for me
| lgrialn wrote:
| Yes, a realization I came to awfully belatedly. As a kid, all
| those speeches and essays where I struggled anxiously with
| topics I didn't know much about or care much about, and
| bullshitting is not one my strengths or preferences. Decades
| later, I'm rather more aware and more opinionated, but my
| days of addressing groups of people seem to be long over.
| robryan wrote:
| What got me as a kid was both not having strong opinions
| and worrying about whether my weak opinions would be
| acceptable to the other kids. Music for example was a bit
| of a minefield as I worried whether what I would suggest
| would be something others would approve of. Eventually
| developed much stronger tastes where I would be happy to
| stand by it if others didn't like it.
| Buttons840 wrote:
| > I've recently come to realize that it's the extent to which
| you see other human beings as a threat, which causes your brain
| to keep its "shields up"
|
| Thanks for this insight. It says clearly something I've been
| feeling, but haven't articulated.
|
| I've thought about taking some martial arts classes, perhaps
| jiu-jitsu because I know they "roll" from the first class
| onwards. I think it would help me get over part of my anxiety.
| However, I'm 40 and in mediocre shape, and I'm worried that the
| risk of getting injured outweighs the benefits.
| rsyring wrote:
| I did BJJ and Pankration for a number of years, rolled a lot.
| There are plenty of benefits but, at least for me, it didn't
| change my general dislike/discomfort with small talk, people,
| crowds, etc. It got me used to large heavy sweaty guys being
| _really_ close, sometimes smothering me, but that just doesn
| 't translate to those other situations for me. Ironically,
| I'm usually more comfortable rolling with a stranger than
| talking with them.
|
| Some BJJ groups will be great places to learn at your age.
| Look for people who demonstrate care that you are new, teach
| you how to defend yourself, and are generally devoid of
| ego/machoism. Especially the senior people leading the
| training. Gracie BJJ will teach you technique for months
| before they let you roll. That's probably not a bad thing
| because you'll learn how to do things and will be less likely
| to hurt yourself and will have time to build conditioning.
| np- wrote:
| I am just a random somebody around your age in previously
| mediocre but now significantly improved shape since starting
| kickboxing. One of the most important things I learned is
| that all that most age related "injuries" and "soreness" etc
| is counterintuitively almost always caused by _lack_ of
| exercise rather than being too active. In fact it's probably
| impossible to be so active as to outweigh the benefits you'd
| get, it's basically entirely a positive feedback loop once
| you get started. (Note I am not talking about people who have
| suffered serious physical trauma and need to recover, that is
| something else entirely---just more like an average couch
| potato).
| wvh wrote:
| I concur with what you say, but rather than social threat, I
| think of it as over-stimulation and sensory overload. Rather
| than being socially introverted, to me the challenge is dealing
| with the sounds, visuals, distractions and general chaos of
| most social situations. It feels more like having a tennis ball
| cannon aimed at ones head rather than having to keep ones guard
| up and shield oneself against others.
|
| Sounds like there are different ways to define or come across
| as introverted. I attribute my disposition more to sensory
| sensitivity reminiscent of autistic or ADHD-like traits rather
| than social anxiety.
| artificialLimbs wrote:
| >> "Listen to your body and learn your limits"
|
| This was the most important lesson one for me, while it was
| applicable. The 'Listen to your body' part, anyway. I used to get
| drained around others, especially big crowds. I was always
| watching others, and 'becoming' them by putting all my attention
| outside myself.
|
| I heard of the technique of maintaining attention/focus inside
| the body. So I picked the belly, which turns out to work very
| well because there is so much sensation in that area for me. I
| began to focus on my belly as much as possible when I was out in
| public. Eventually you can begin to rapidly focus attention
| between yourself and others, say if you need to converse or pay
| attention to whatever external thing. This enabled me to become
| 'bored' when out in public, instead of the formerly usual mild
| state of panic/anxiety. It was completely life changing. Doing
| this made the other bullet points entirely secondary for me.
| sewzastep wrote:
| > I heard of the technique of maintaining attention/focus
| inside the body
|
| meditation helped me a ton with social anxiety too. It allowed
| me to be OK with not knowing the right things to say.
| AshleyJanssen wrote:
| Hey! Author here. I was pleasantly surprised to see this posted!
| I registered an account to say thanks for sharing. If anyone has
| any questions or wants to chat further, feel free to hit me up.
| :)
| enduser wrote:
| Technically introversion refers to people whose dominant
| cognitive function[1] has an "internal model" of the world, vs.
| extraversion where the world is the model.
|
| Introverts need down time because it takes processing time to
| update the internal model in response to stimuli.
|
| Extraverts don't like being alone because when the world around
| them is empty "nothing is happening".
|
| It's not the enjoyment of company or solitude that makes us
| introverted or extraverted.
|
| [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_Types
| amelius wrote:
| Parties also generally drain my energy. But I've found out
| something interesting. If people start playing games at a party
| (like card games), or if there is a discussion of a topic that
| really interests me, then my energy is magically replenished.
| Weird.
| musingsole wrote:
| I'm the opposite. Break out a structured game in a party
| setting, and I'll need a nap ASAP. Let everyone amorphously
| mingle, and I can last for hours.
| ackbar03 wrote:
| This is like me in a nutshell. If there's something to do then
| I can join in pretty naturally. Trying to find topics to talk
| about with strangers on the other hand can be quite difficult
| depending on my state and energy level. On some days I'm tired
| and just dgaf and the end result is extremely awkward
| interactions
| Zircom wrote:
| This is me exactly. I hate parties, love game nights. As long
| as there's something everyone is doing I can participate in, I
| have no problem being part of the conversation, even if the
| subject has nothing to do with the actual game we're playing.
| But as soon as there's nothing to do and I just have to talk to
| people and that's the only thing that's going on, I can
| immediately feel my energy just draining away.
| SyzygistSix wrote:
| It helps me when there is a common focus on an activity rather
| than just on people. Parties can be not so great; playing music
| with people, which is very similar, I'm totally fine with.
| dartharva wrote:
| This article feels like something straight from Buzzfeed
| wiz21c wrote:
| I do hide in the bathroom (the sacred place where I'm
| guaranteed to be alone), I do the dishes as a meditation moment
| (don't talk to me).
|
| I mean, I don't _believe_ I 'm an introvert. I just happen to
| see I have many measurable common points with that kind of
| "buzzfeed" definitions of introvert.
|
| So this article feels quite accurate for me.
|
| Oh and I have plenty of people who I like to talk to. It's just
| that it drains me.
| rob_c wrote:
| Have to agree.
|
| But hopefully without the crowd of "I now identify as this, how
| dare you" following on.
| hn8788 wrote:
| If more people identify as introverts, maybe they'll stop
| hanging around the coffee pot near my desk and chatting all
| day.
| rob_c wrote:
| tbh, coffee is usually more fun than work :P
| anthomtb wrote:
| If you just skim the words and look at the cartoons then yeah,
| feels pretty Buzzfeed-ish.
|
| But if you give it a deep read there's a lot of good advice in
| there. Maybe not so relevant to someone like myself, who's 35
| and well comfortable with his introverted habits. But if I'd
| read this article at 22 it would have been highly beneficial.
| xyzzy21 wrote:
| Good article. I'm E/I neutral so I've had to learn many of these
| for my I-half.
| ToddWBurgess wrote:
| I am an extrovert which usually makes me stand out in a group of
| developers. I find being tuned into the needs of how introverts
| function has helped get along better with my peers.
| dSebastien wrote:
| I've spent many years of my life fighting against my introverted
| nature. I've now embraced who I am, and I respect my need to
| isolate & recharge. Some people (my wife included ;p) don't
| always get it, but I don't care. I know what I need to feel
| better.
| hn8788 wrote:
| I'm the same way. Even as a kid I never enjoyed parties with
| lots of people; 3-4 close friends is about the group size limit
| I can enjoy. I used to force myself to go to work functions
| because my wife would tell me I need to make more friends, but
| I just stopped going because it always felt like I was forcing
| myself to go so I'd seem "normal" to everyone else. Once I
| started doing what I want to do I felt much better, even though
| I can tell my co-workers think I'm depressed or something
| because I'd rather hang out at my desk working and listening to
| music than hanging out with 20+ people at the potluck in the
| conference room.
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