[HN Gopher] Intel Core i7-12700K Review
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       Intel Core i7-12700K Review
        
       Author : ItsTotallyOn
       Score  : 69 points
       Date   : 2021-11-20 14:46 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.tomshardware.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.tomshardware.com)
        
       | jbverschoor wrote:
       | At the current energy prices, intel needs to up their game.
        
       | HelixEndeavor wrote:
       | Feels to me like we're starting to hit the brick wall with
       | x86-64. Only way we can squeeze more performance out of these
       | chips to make them physically larger, squeeze the components into
       | tighter space, and suck more and more power and generate more and
       | more heat.
       | 
       | As much as I dislike Apple's overall business practices, they are
       | 100% correct about ARM being the future of high performance, high
       | efficiency computing.
       | 
       | And we need high efficiency in a world that is becoming starved
       | of energy as more and more people get connected every day.
        
         | monocasa wrote:
         | It's Intel's stagnant process nodes you're seeing here more
         | than x86_64.
        
       | gsnedders wrote:
       | At least to me, it always seems like the differences in gaming
       | performance between mid-to-high end CPUs are relatively small,
       | and frequently dominated by the differences between GPUs. Given a
       | fixed budget, does it actually make sense from a gaming point-of-
       | view to put the money into a high-end CPU any more?
       | 
       | (Aside from gaming, there's definitely plenty of wins from going
       | to higher end CPUs, but I'm curious about the gaming case
       | specifically.)
        
         | TheGuyWhoCodes wrote:
         | It depends on how much the game is CPU heavy, specially single
         | core performance on some games makes a big difference. High end
         | CPUs tend to have a higher single core performance.
        
         | belval wrote:
         | You are pretty much right on that point, both a 5600X from AMD
         | or a 12600k from Intel won't bottleneck a 3080Ti or 3090 when
         | gaming.
        
         | JaimeThompson wrote:
         | It depends on what sort of games you will be playing. For some
         | simulation and related games such as Factorio and the like the
         | CPU can make a large difference.
        
           | Macha wrote:
           | At the high end, factorio is one of those games (the other
           | being flight sim) that also gains a lot from faster memory
           | iirc.
           | 
           | Though at the low end, factorio is also a really well
           | optimised game and can run a 100spm factory at 60ups pretty
           | comfortably on a mid range cpu. It's only the large
           | multiplayer games or megabases where it starts to hit
           | performance limits.
           | 
           | Cities Skylines is probably the best example of a game where
           | the average player has big gains in performance in regular
           | play they could get from a cpu upgrade.
        
             | adgjlsfhk1 wrote:
             | I think you're underestimating factorio significantly.
             | There are 20kspm bases that are run at 60 ups. I doubt most
             | people will even feel the game performance start to degrade
             | before 1kspm.
        
               | Macha wrote:
               | > There are 20kspm bases that are run at 60 ups.
               | 
               | There are, but megabase (>1k spm) territory is where
               | players start making design decisions around ups impact
               | like avoiding large logistics zones or avoiding heat
               | pipes.
        
         | LordKeren wrote:
         | Your assumption lines up with the general PC gaming advice.
         | 
         | There are a few games that do strongly benefit from a better
         | CPU, but those are the exception, and they still have
         | significant dismissing returns
        
           | Drew_ wrote:
           | Not really true in my experience for multiplayer games.
           | Pretty much every multiplayer game is CPU and memory bound
           | and any GPU limitation can be mitigated by just lowering
           | settings. Nothing can be done to compensate for weaker CPU
           | performance unfortunately. If I had to skimp on GPU or CPU I
           | would pick GPU every time.
        
         | hmottestad wrote:
         | I had the understanding that once you move from 1080p to 4K
         | then the GPU becomes the bottleneck for most AAA games. Pro
         | gamers will probably stick to 1080p and a 144hz monitor.
        
           | redisman wrote:
           | Esports games are very greatly optimized to run at high frame
           | rates. You don't need a 3080 to get infinite FPS in CSGO
        
           | bufferoverflow wrote:
           | Most fps pro gamers have switched to 240hz. I see a fewon
           | 165hz, some on 300+.
        
       | op00to wrote:
       | Very nice, but you can't buy ddr5 right now so ... enjoy that
       | fancy processor?
       | 
       | Edit: Holy cow, you can use ddr4!
        
         | Shosty123 wrote:
         | You can get Z690 DDR4 boards. That's what I had to resort to so
         | we could test our software on the i5-12600k. Getting a CPU
         | cooler with an LGA 1700 compatible bracket was actually the
         | hardest part.
        
           | cyber_kinetist wrote:
           | One downside of this current Alder Lake release might be the
           | fact that the Z690 motherboards are much more expensive than
           | the AMD's current mainstream motherboards. The CPU might be a
           | tad cheaper but overall it might not be worth it (well, until
           | more affordable motherboards appear).
        
         | InvaderFizz wrote:
         | Alderlake supports DDR4 and the performance difference is
         | minuscule.
         | 
         | The downside of LGA 1700 is that budget boards don't exist
         | right now. You can pick up a B550 board any day of the week for
         | under $100, sales as low as $60. Z690 is all $200+.
         | 
         | The Z690 is a nicer platform for sure, especially for
         | peripheral connectivity.
        
           | 5e92cb50239222b wrote:
           | > the performance difference is minuscule
           | 
           | I thought DDR5 brought a 2x increase in throughput? It didn't
           | help that much, it seems?
        
             | Dylan16807 wrote:
             | Memory throughput doesn't have a huge impact on performance
             | in most desktop scenarios, and right now DDR4 is easily
             | 3600MHz while DDR5 is 4800/5200.
             | 
             | 4800MHz DDR4 even seems to be cheaper than 4800MHz DDR5.
        
             | redisman wrote:
             | Eventually yes but the kits available right now are not
             | very impressive. Early adopter tax definitely. You'll
             | probably get at least 2x faster memory kits eventually, I'm
             | not sure how high DDR5 can scale
        
             | kllrnohj wrote:
             | It's less than 2x when you factor in the mature DDR4 that
             | greatly exceeds jedec specs vs. the immature ddr5 that's
             | sort of at bare minimum.
             | 
             | Eventually ddr5 will outpace DDR4, but right now it's the
             | awkward transition time. Not unlike early DDR4 vs. ddr3
        
             | InvaderFizz wrote:
             | The timings on DDR5 are very loose right now. Don't expect
             | much real gains for another year or two as it matures.
             | 
             | If you have a specific task that is extremely memory
             | bandwidth constrained, it's great. But then again, you are
             | probably looking at something with 8 channels if it is that
             | big of an issue to you.
        
               | jquery wrote:
               | I'm using 8-channel DDR4-3200. Would I get any benefit
               | from 4-channel DDR5-5xxx? Is 8-channel DDR4-3200 roughly
               | equivalent to 4-channel DDR4-6400, or am I missing
               | something?
        
               | InvaderFizz wrote:
               | You're not missing much. Alder Lake (2ch DDR5-4800)
               | achieved pretty impressive memory bandwidth, but it is
               | still eclipsed by 4ch DDR4-3200 on Threadripper. If you
               | could get 2ch DDR5-6400, it would be the same bandwidth
               | as the TR4.
               | 
               | What I don't understand well enough to know the impacts,
               | is how latency plays into specific workloads.
               | 
               | 2ch Alder lake is about 70GB/s[0]
               | 
               | 4ch Threadripper is about 85GB/s
               | 
               | 8ch/64c Threadripper Pro/Epyc is about 140GB/s[1]
               | 
               | 0: https://hothardware.com/reviews/intel-12th-gen-core-
               | alder-la...
               | 
               | 1: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16805/amd-threadripper-
               | pro-re...
        
           | op00to wrote:
           | Woah! I can use my existing ddr4 memory? I didn't even
           | research it after seeing ddr5 was unobtanium! Thank you!
        
       | miohtama wrote:
       | Does K stand for Kelvins? :)
        
       | VortexDream wrote:
       | Wow, this seems like an impressive step forward for the CPU
       | industry and the kind of change we've been hoping for since Ryzen
       | started giving Intel a run for its money. I can only hope that
       | AMD continues to stay competitive and keep Intel on its toes.
        
         | xwdv wrote:
         | They are still far behind AMD.
        
           | jjcon wrote:
           | Not according to these and other benchmarks - what makes you
           | think that?
        
             | xwdv wrote:
             | These are lagging benchmarks, you don't think AMD hasn't
             | been working on the next big thing?
        
           | ed25519FUUU wrote:
           | These benchmarks suggest they are _much_ slower at bringing
           | the chips to market than AMD, but they're able to match or
           | beat performance dollar-for-dollar.
        
             | devonkim wrote:
             | It's a bit of a complicated matter in terms of pricing as a
             | measure of performance / dollar because with the current
             | Ryzen CPUs AMD increased pricing relative to the previous
             | generation and Intel being in its current position is
             | lowering pricing to remain competitive. So AMD is reducing
             | pricing accordingly and it's not clear what the margins
             | look like (the 5800X in particular is an awkward chip to
             | produce and now may be forced to even sell at a loss).
             | 
             | There's many factors to consider in TCO like performance /
             | watt as well combined with motherboard ecosystem which has
             | been a historical AMD weak point. So it's tough to compare
             | CPU pricing on an apples to apples basis even if the CPUs
             | were otherwise exactly the same performance and pricing
        
               | tehbeard wrote:
               | > motherboard ecosystem which has been a historical AMD
               | weak point
               | 
               | Is this referring to pre AM4 socket? Or the faff around
               | Ryzen 5000 not supporting the earlier AM4 motherboards?
        
               | devonkim wrote:
               | AM4 _and_ prior. Motherboard quality has varied
               | considerably across different manufacturers compared to
               | Intel's partners. One other example of recent annoyances
               | is the launch situation with B450 and X570 and now with
               | B550 and X570S existing years later basically. Gigabyte's
               | one manufacturer that has been swapping out parts to
               | lower spec and they don't get away with it in Intel's
               | partner network but somehow AMD isn't penalizing Gigabyte
               | at least publicly to keep this from happening.
        
               | R0b0t1 wrote:
               | For a long time AMD motherboards just had less features.
               | Unsure if he means that specifically, but it was a pain
               | point when I was building an AM4 system.
        
             | jacquesm wrote:
             | Assuming the chips and motherboards are actually available
             | (at normal prices), and that the production systems will
             | perform in the same way as the benchmark systems.
        
               | Sponge5 wrote:
               | what are normal prices anymore?
        
       | vondur wrote:
       | It looks like to get the best performance benefits out of these
       | newer CPU's, you need to run Windows 11. (Linux will have support
       | for them in the near future I believe)
        
       | tehbeard wrote:
       | 125 - 190W thermals.... That seems like a lot, almost into server
       | territory.
       | 
       | Sacrificing ~5% "game performance" (such a nebulous number given
       | how varied the CPU/GPU load can be between games) for being able
       | to sit comfortably in the same room seems like a no brainer.
       | 
       | This still feels like a halo product? Except does the i5 or such
       | compete well enough with Ryzen for that to work?
       | 
       | I'm curious to see how AMD responds, I wonder if they're chiplet
       | method lends itself well to launching their own hybrid E/P core
       | architecture alongside "3D V-cache".
        
         | jpalomaki wrote:
         | Maybe we should start looking at placing the computer away from
         | the gamer.
         | 
         | There seems to be for example optical TB3 cables, maybe
         | something like this could be part of the solution.
         | 
         | https://www.macrumors.com/2020/03/26/optical-thunderbolt-3-c...
        
         | ramshorst wrote:
         | Murdered by words.
        
         | cyber_kinetist wrote:
         | I don't think most consumers would really care about power
         | consumption at full load. From looking at some benchmarks,
         | Intel seems to have okay thermals for gaming or light
         | productivity tasks (thanks to the P-E core split). If you're
         | doing any sort of rendering or number-crunching you're in
         | trouble (unless you have a liquid cooler, which to be honest
         | really sucks), but most people aren't that kind of person.
        
           | asdfasgasdgasdg wrote:
           | Plenty of air coolers can dissipate 180W. For example, almost
           | all graphics cards come with air coolers that are capable of
           | dissipating their full TDP, which is often much higher than
           | 180W. Something like this:
           | 
           | Noctua NH-D15 chromax.Black, Dual-Tower CPU Cooler (140mm,
           | Black) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07Y87YHRH/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_
           | glt_fa...
           | 
           | Would be able to dissipate 180W probably without even
           | throttling up the fans that much.
        
             | ben-schaaf wrote:
             | A NH-U 14S is able to cool a (overclocked) 3990X at 450W
             | reported.
             | 
             | https://youtu.be/3GqqQQxdtUM
        
             | cyber_kinetist wrote:
             | Wow, guess I've underestimated the glorious power of
             | Noctua.
        
               | asdfasgasdgasdg wrote:
               | Not just Noctua! Heat pipes are an amazing technology and
               | there are a bunch of companies that have made really
               | exciting thermal management products with them.
        
             | vladvasiliu wrote:
             | > Would be able to dissipate 180W probably without even
             | throttling up the fans that much.
             | 
             | That's very likely. I have an NH-D14 with only the center
             | 140 mm fan installed on an i7-3930k overclocked to 4.3 GHz,
             | and it barely ramps up the fan. The loudest fan in my
             | computer is the PSU (an old 600 or 650 W Seasonic). It runs
             | in a "silence-oriented" Define R3 case with closed door.
             | 
             | Intel announces 135 W TDP for that CPU. Under load, OCCT
             | says 160 W.
        
           | tehbeard wrote:
           | > Intel seems to have okay thermals for gaming or light
           | productivity tasks
           | 
           | That's not what you buy an i7 for though, is it?
           | 
           | An i7 is typically for "I have work to do when not gaming" or
           | content creators starting out, where as an i5 is more the
           | category for gaming and light productivity / "the family pc".
           | 
           | Getting an i7 exclusively for gaming seems more for bragging
           | rights on "fastest CPU".
        
             | asdfasgasdgasdg wrote:
             | Depends on the type of game. There was a period of time in
             | the 2010s where CPUs were rarely the bottleneck in gaming.
             | But with the advent of better graphics techniques and more
             | powerful graphics cards, along with more ambitious scenes
             | and simulations, there are many cases today where a strong
             | CPU is required for gaming.
             | 
             | A recent example is Battlefield 2042. When I first got the
             | game I had an AMD 3700X, which is no slouch of a CPU. But
             | it could only drive the game at about 70fps, no matter the
             | resolution. After an upgrade to a 5900X, I can run the game
             | at 110-120fps. The strongest i5s would likely struggle to
             | hit a stable 60fps on this game.
        
               | gambiting wrote:
               | So what you're saying really is that the 3700X had
               | absolutely no issues whatsoever running that game. Yes
               | it's nicer to play in 120fps, but it's not like you
               | couldn't play the game because of the CPU. I know someone
               | who had to upgrade from an older 4-core i7 to a modern
               | CPU because Horizon 5 was actually stuttering. But the
               | CPU "limiting" you when you're comfortably above 60fps,
               | and you aren't playing competitive eSports, is not really
               | a limit, just like how my car accelerating really poorly
               | past 150mph is not really a limit in any real sense of
               | the word.
        
               | asdfasgasdgasdg wrote:
               | > So what you're saying really is that the 3700X had
               | absolutely no issues whatsoever running that game.
               | 
               | Perhaps to specifications that would satisfy someone
               | else. My requirements are ~120fps and 4k. For those
               | requirements, no existing i5 would cut muster.
               | 
               | > But the CPU "limiting" you when you're comfortably
               | above 60fps
               | 
               | I never used the word "limiting" in my comment. Not sure
               | what you're quoting from. That being said, the 3700X was
               | objectively limiting my framerates. It's not a value
               | judgment, it's just an objective fact that such CPUs are
               | inadequate to satisfy my preferences, and those of many
               | other PC gamers. If you have different preferences,
               | that's fine, but it's not really relevant when I'm
               | talking about my own.
        
               | gambiting wrote:
               | Of course, and I myself play at 144Hz and would probably
               | do the same. I think I just took an issue with the
               | statement that most gamers are CPU limited nowadays - and
               | while in strictly technical sense that's true, I don't
               | think that a few years old CPU being able to run games at
               | solid 60fps+ is a problem in any sense. Again, it's not
               | like it physically can't run the game, it just doesn't
               | run it "well enough" for some people.
        
               | asdfasgasdgasdg wrote:
               | > I just took an issue with the statement that most
               | gamers are CPU limited nowadays
               | 
               | I didn't say most gamers are CPU limited, though. I said
               | "Depends on the type of game . . . there are many cases
               | today where a strong CPU is required for gaming." I
               | didn't say most cases.
               | 
               | Conversely, it would be fine to observe that many console
               | gamers have historically been satisfied with 30fps, and
               | therefore PC gamers ought to only "require" a strong -2
               | gen i5 processor. While you're at it, you could also say
               | that console gamers game at 1080p, so PC players should
               | be satisfied with that as well. And you'd be right, under
               | a certain configuration of preferences, and a certain
               | interpretation of the word "require."
        
               | satvikpendem wrote:
               | I mean, that's your personal opinion on >60 FPS gaming,
               | it's not universally shared. I for one enjoy even single
               | player games at the highest FPS I can get, which is why I
               | have a 1080p 240 hz monitor. If the parent likes their
               | games higher than 60 FPS then to them their 3700x really
               | was a limiter in their enjoyment, something which the
               | 5900x would not be for them.
        
             | alasdair_ wrote:
             | All the games I play are CPU bound. I have a 3090 and I
             | still can't play World of Warcraft (a 16 year old game)
             | with the settings on max without serious FPS drops in major
             | cities because most of the game is bound by single threaded
             | cpu far more than gpu.
        
         | Negitivefrags wrote:
         | There are rumours going around that the GeForce 4090 is going
         | to have a max TDP of 650W.
         | 
         | It seems insane but if true then consider that the combination
         | of CPU and GPU is going to be 840W, and that is before the rest
         | of the system is taken into account.
         | 
         | At some point we are going to need to start worrying about
         | installing dedicated venting for computers to the outside of
         | the house.
         | 
         | At some point you need to start integrating desktop computers
         | into your HVAC designs.
         | 
         | At some point you need to start having dedicated electric
         | circuits installed like for your oven.
         | 
         | My current computer (5950X with 3080) was already hot enough
         | when gaming that I found it physically uncomfortable to have it
         | under my desk and had to move it out from under there. My legs
         | were burning up.
        
           | oblak wrote:
           | Sadly, not rumours. Next gen video cards from AMD/nvidia are
           | going to cost a lot of money and eat many, many watts. I
           | mean, we can live with that waste heat during the winter but
           | I am not looking forward to having a 1kw spewing PC next to
           | me in my gaming room
        
             | Chris_Newton wrote:
             | This seems crazy to me. I run an entire home office,
             | sometimes with a reasonably powerful main workstation
             | (enough for things like 3D graphics work), a second PC or
             | laptop, and various server and networking equipment all
             | running at once, and unless we're also using something
             | power-intensive like a laser printer the entire room
             | doesn't draw 1kW!
        
           | baybal2 wrote:
           | > There are rumours going around that the GeForce 4090 is
           | going to have a max TDP of 650W.
           | 
           | You will need a small DC welding machine for a power supply.
        
             | gambiting wrote:
             | I mean, 1000W power supplies are really not a big deal at
             | all, but yeah, that's a lot of heat going into my room that
             | I'd rather not have.
        
               | ant6n wrote:
               | Put the pc in a different room, run some cable for
               | monitor, peripherals, drives. I wonder whether there's a
               | way to extend the power button.
        
               | righttoolforjob wrote:
               | > I wonder whether there's a way to extend the power
               | button.
               | 
               | Any pair of wires will do...
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | tomcam wrote:
           | > At some point you need to start integrating desktop
           | computers into your HVAC designs.
           | 
           | I think you have that reversed
        
           | Jaygles wrote:
           | Undervolting the 3080 can help a lot with thermals and
           | sacrifices minimal performance up to a point. I undervolted
           | my 3090 and it improved thermals by like 5-10c depending on
           | the workload which lowered the fan noise and as a bonus
           | lowered the coil whine. I don't have numbers on the power
           | draw though but it should be a significant difference
        
             | redisman wrote:
             | I ran a beefy (3 power inputs) 3080 undervolted and you
             | don't really lose more than a few percentage points of
             | performance and it ran great on my 650W with a 3700X. I
             | much prefer a little performance hit to loud fans
        
             | nicolaslem wrote:
             | Undervolting can even improve performance: my stock 5700 xt
             | runs at 1.2V and reaches 110degC hotspot. It then drops the
             | frequency a few hundred MHz to stay below the temperature
             | threshold.
             | 
             | By running it at 1.1V it reaches 90degC hotspot, below the
             | 110degC threshold so it runs at maximum frequency
             | constantly.
             | 
             | Many GPUs (and CPUs) have their stock voltage quite high
             | because it improves yield for the manufacturer. Unless a
             | GPU is really bottom of the barrel regarding silicon
             | lottery, it can usually be undervolted without issues. This
             | is however less true for flagship models which are already
             | pushing the silicon as far as it can.
        
           | jmnicolas wrote:
           | At some point we need to realize that wasting so much
           | electricity for gaming isn't reasonable.
        
           | kitsunesoba wrote:
           | It really is insane, and limits upgradability of even brand
           | new machines.
           | 
           | Point in case, I have a newly built Ryzen 5900X tower that
           | reuses a GPU from an old build. I chose a high quality 80+
           | Platinum 750W PSU thinking that would give more than enough
           | headroom for upgrading the GPU at some point, but if the next
           | generation of GPUs are as power hungry as rumored I'll be
           | limited to current generation cards unless I buy a new PSU.
           | 
           | I hope efficiency comes to be a focal point again soon,
           | because if the trend continues you'll need a 1kW PSU just to
           | comfortably accommodate current enthusiast parts and have any
           | hope of upgrading in the future, which is ridiculous.
        
             | jacquesm wrote:
             | With what the GPU will cost you will not see the price of a
             | better PSU as more than a speedbump. You can also sell your
             | old one to recoup some of it.
             | 
             | Even so, 1KW+ personal computers are a bit strange, back in
             | the day the very largest workstations (think IRIX fridges)
             | were in that domain.
             | 
             | What would be nicer would be if manufacturers aimed for
             | minimal power consumption with the same performance as a
             | previous generation to give people the option.
        
           | mise_en_place wrote:
           | FWIW I consider the thermals a feature, not a bug. Helps save
           | on the heating bill, plus my house is already very well
           | insulated. I have noticed that my Radeon 5500 XT has better
           | thermals when passed thru to a Windows VM. It would seem that
           | Linux kernel 5.15 has better thermals/fan control for amdgpu,
           | I'm on a slightly older version.
        
             | mastax wrote:
             | I'm not into cryptocurrency, but I'm mining on my desktop
             | right now because it's like running a space heater that
             | pays for itself.
        
           | spullara wrote:
           | I currently have a couple machines in a room and it heats up
           | so much I had to get a separate window AC in addition to
           | central air.
        
           | Macha wrote:
           | Something like a QX9770 + SLI 680s could use similar power to
           | a 12900k + 4090, which is similar in market positioning as
           | the "halo product" now vs 10 years ago. The difference now is
           | as more and more people who grew up gaming are now in the
           | employed professional category, there are more people looking
           | at what would have been the ultimate top end setups back
           | then.
        
           | AnthonyMouse wrote:
           | > There are rumours going around that the GeForce 4090 is
           | going to have a max TDP of 650W.
           | 
           | This is kind of a move of desperation. GPUs are massively
           | parallel so it's straightforward to make performance scale
           | linearly with power consumption. They could always have done
           | this.
           | 
           | Nvidia is used to not having strong competition. Now AMD and
           | Intel are both gunning for them and the market share is
           | theirs to lose. Things like this are an attempt to stay on
           | top. But the competition could just do the same thing, so
           | what good is it?
        
           | AussieWog93 wrote:
           | More interesting than this is what's caused the performance
           | expectation of gamers to rise faster than Moore's Law.
           | 
           | It took us almost 10 years to move the standard from 1024x768
           | to 1920x1080 (~2.5x increase in pixels/sec), yet in the past
           | 5 years we've gone from 1920x1080@60Hz to 4k@120Hz (~8x
           | increase).
           | 
           | I'm not sure if it's because graphics aren't naturally
           | improving the same way they were in the 00s and early 2010s,
           | or streaming culture showing things off with the highest
           | resolutions and framerates possible, but it's absolutely a
           | modern phenomenon and I'm not sure how long it can last.
        
             | kungito wrote:
             | I'm not sure which setup and games you are thinking about
             | but if I'm not mistaken, right now we are still struggling
             | with 1440p@60hz for ubisoft games and other AAAs
        
             | jpalomaki wrote:
             | Maybe this is driven by the increase in disposable income.
             | 
             | Many avid gamers likely want the best possible rig (in
             | terms of computing power) they can comfortably afford.
             | Hardware vendors try to meet this demand.
             | 
             | Powerful setups are useless without games that benefit from
             | power. This creates a demand for super highres graphics,
             | even though those might not add much to the actual gameplay
             | experience.
        
             | Macha wrote:
             | I don't think 4k120 today is in the same market position as
             | 1080p60 5 years ago. 5 years ago 1080p60 was the bar, if
             | your device couldn't do 1080p60, it wasn't a gaming
             | product, it was a business product. I don't think 4k120 is
             | there, I think we're just at the bar where 1440p60 is
             | considered at that level. In that time, the higher end
             | target has moved from 1440p60 or 4k30 to 1440p120 or 4k60,
             | which means the halo products now have to promise 4k120 to
             | keep ahead of the merely high end.
             | 
             | I think the current increase in interest in high refresh
             | rate gaming came from the shift away from TN panels. Once
             | IPS became reasonably available, companies with TN products
             | couldn't push for them as premium products from an image
             | quality perspective, but high refresh rate was something
             | they could still market with TN that there was a window
             | where IPS and VA could not do that. So they did, gamers got
             | exposed to high refresh rates and then moved those
             | expectations to other products.
             | 
             | Also tech like gsync/freesync meant that if your monitor
             | had a higher refresh rate than your hardware could produce,
             | you no longer had to deal with tearing.
             | 
             | I think monitor tech is leading GPU tech at the moment,
             | with 1440p240 and 4k120 monitors. There's certainly _some_
             | games where those resolution/framerate combinations are
             | achievable, mostly esports titles and older/smaller titles,
             | but for the most part, no (also for me at least, past like
             | 90hz you're into dimishing returns territory). But now
             | people have these monitors capable of X resolution and Y
             | refresh rate, people want to have their cake and eat it,
             | wanting games that have modern effects for higher fidelity
             | and yet also higher fps to take advantage of their
             | monitors.
        
           | dlevine wrote:
           | I just upgraded my PSU from 500W -> 750W when I got my RTX
           | 3070 (I'm running a 5600X).
           | 
           | Seeing this makes me worried that maybe it wasn't quite
           | enough.
        
         | monocasa wrote:
         | It's really concerning for Intel. Their high margin parts are
         | in the data center space, which is extremely sensitive to
         | perf/watt. If they're getting perf by throwing extra watts at
         | the problem, are the data center parts going to be competitive?
         | If not, it doesn't bode well for Intel, as that gravy train
         | money is part of what let's them spend a stupid amount on R&D.
         | They could starve themselves out of the investment money they
         | need in an increasingly competitive market.
        
           | ant6n wrote:
           | Well they want to already go to the next node in H2/22,
           | "intel 4", so hopefully performance/watt will improve then:
           | https://www.anandtech.com/show/16823/intel-accelerated-
           | offen...
        
             | monocasa wrote:
             | TSMC is set to have full production of N3 by then too, and
             | they have actually been meeting their public statements
             | about process timelines. Intel unfortunately has a
             | increasingly uphill battle.
        
       | boyadjian wrote:
       | Just buy the Core i7-12700 non K version : It is cheaper, have
       | lower thermals, and is almost as fast in most usages
        
         | piyh wrote:
         | Non K SKUs don't boost forever
        
       | SmellTheGlove wrote:
       | This was hard to read. I felt like the content was a little
       | repetitive - maybe for SEO purposes? And full of over the top
       | superlatives, mostly focused on the performance per dollar, and
       | mostly ignoring the increased costs of motherboards (DDR5 aside)
       | over the prior generation or the current generation of the
       | competitor's product. [0] Not to mention focusing on an OS that
       | basically no one uses right now.
       | 
       | I'm sorry but it reads more like an ad. And just because it often
       | needs to be said, I have no brand loyalty here, and mostly think
       | brand loyalty in this space is kind of dumb.
       | 
       | [0]: An example:
       | 
       | ```Given its more amenable $409 price tag, it is quite shocking
       | to see the Core i7-12700K deliver such a stunning blow to the
       | $549 Ryzen 9 5900X in threaded work, highlighting the advantages
       | of the x86 hybrid architecture.```
       | 
       | I'd love to save $140 and get better performance, but where am I
       | getting a motherboard that doesn't eat up most of that savings?
       | Maybe it exists, but it's not mentioned. That's fine, it's a CPU
       | review, but then leave the dollar figures out of it if they
       | aren't complete.
        
         | systemvoltage wrote:
         | TomsHardware has been doing this ever since I remember getting
         | on the internet.
        
         | jeffbee wrote:
         | The writing really is offensive, but at least it's all on a
         | single page instead of spread across 75 pages like Anandtech.
        
           | zitterbewegung wrote:
           | Those are for ad impressions and they do a much better job
           | testing and being neutral
        
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