[HN Gopher] China's Foreign Ministry 'not aware' of situation of...
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China's Foreign Ministry 'not aware' of situation of tennis player
Peng Shuai
Author : bryan0
Score : 132 points
Date : 2021-11-19 19:03 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.espn.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.espn.com)
| reunification wrote:
| I grew up in China. As someone who has personal experience of
| growing up there, I would really like foreigners and foreign
| countries to stop concern trolling and telling us what to do.
| This is no longer the 19th century and white men no longer own
| Asia. Chinese values are different from Western values and I
| expect people on the other side of the world to respect and
| understand that. One of our most important values is internal
| stability, and the Peng Shuai situation reflects that.
| throwaway02465 wrote:
| Looks like finding abuse by a powerful man acceptable in the
| name of internal stability isn't part of Peng Shuai's values.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| Let me tell you as a white man that does not own anything but
| his laptop and a few clothes: crushing individuals in the name
| of Greater Good always backfired on us and it will backfire on
| you, too.
|
| I am not even sure if we learnt this lesson yet here in the
| West - power is corrosive to human rights - but your answers
| seems to be radically rejecting its validity altogether.
|
| Several empires disintegrated after treating their own people
| badly.
| kleton wrote:
| The Chinese civilization has at least 2000 (the commonly
| given 5000 is way too generous) years of experience with
| statecraft. I think at this point they know what will or will
| not backfire on them.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| So does the Western civilization, our roots are in deep
| Antiquity and a lot of Greek philosophy and Roman law still
| forms a base of our contemporary institutions.
|
| But we still repeated the same mistakes on different
| occasions. It often happens that when someone gets all the
| power, he (usually he) deems himself better at statecraft
| than those backward ancestors.
| JudasGoat wrote:
| After the "Cultural Revolution", what is left of Chinese
| history, to learn from?
| inglor_cz wrote:
| Taiwan?
| mint2 wrote:
| The government was completely overthrown three times in the
| 20th century, and the prior centuries saw immense turmoil
| as well.
|
| Do Italians have inherently good government skills due to
| Ancient Rome?
|
| Edit: oops overthrown two or three times depending on
| whether the Japanese take over of major cities counts. But
| anyway what I really mean is it had three distinct and
| extremely different governments. Transfer of skills seems
| questionable, to understate it.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| A country with even longer tradition of governmental
| skills would be ... Iraq.
| kolp wrote:
| >>Chinese values are different from Western values and I expect
| people on the other side of the world to respect and understand
| that.
|
| The ability to criticise public officials and politicians
| without fear of being "disappeared" should surely be a globally
| shared aspiration, regardless of cultural differences.
|
| As you say, this is no longer the 19th century. Societies
| evolve and leave behind unfair practices previously regarded as
| cultural norms.
| throw8932894 wrote:
| You really have no idea about chinese real politik. CCP is
| just group of competing gangs. "Disappeared" in western sense
| does not make a sense, there is no central authority, just
| some mobster who ordered it.
|
| Politician who caused this mess is done, he may disappear
| latter when things are quiet.
| howinteresting wrote:
| I realize the CCP would like foreigners to treat all Chinese
| people as a monolith, but there's no reason anyone else should
| agree to that.
| Akwi wrote:
| I dont understand how with 1.4 billion people there is absolutely
| no sign of opposition. Whats the lower bound on how many people
| you have jail or kill to domesticate the whole herd? It has to be
| an insanely large number.
| Aperocky wrote:
| Welcome to the eastern concept of "Mandate of Heaven"
| brokencode wrote:
| China has a massive surveillance apparatus. If opposition is
| visible to us, it's visible to the Chinese government and can
| be snuffed out. It's possible that many people there disagree
| with the government's actions, though.
| echelon wrote:
| Every person deserves the freedom to criticize their leaders and
| to speak out against abuse without fear of reprisal.
|
| This is a shame.
| chrischen wrote:
| Dang, tell that to Edward Snowden.
| whatever1 wrote:
| Half America was publicly making fun of the previous
| president. Try that in China.
|
| Snowden while having noble intentions he broke the law and he
| should face the consequences of his actions.
|
| If I kill the guard to break into the CIA HQ and expose a
| massive scandal do I deserve jail time or a Medal of Honor? I
| would argue both.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _Half America was publicly making fun of the previous
| president. Try that in China._
|
| If the whole establishment and the deep state was similarly
| with you, you could do that in China too.
| SllX wrote:
| So how is Chairman Winnie the Pooh taking his licks?
| whatever1 wrote:
| So now that Biden is the laughingstock of the Right, I
| guess they have the establishment and the deep state on
| their side and that is why they are not exiled?
| coldtea wrote:
| No, it's because there are no stakes. The right can laugh
| in their limited outlets, but can't mobilize all the
| "good people", media, state apparatus, three letter
| agencies, and so on.
| whatever1 wrote:
| What stakes does a single tennis player control? She
| still got whacked.
|
| The president of the US could easily make an annoying
| opposing journalist disappear. But they don't.
|
| That is what makes America a functioning democracy and
| China an authoritarian regime.
| adventured wrote:
| No, the right doesn't have much media power (only Fox
| News is of consequence), and it's quite weak politically
| until the midterms. Biden can largely ignore the right in
| that sense, he doesn't have to care if the political
| right mocks him. Mostly Biden has to pay attention to
| being his own worst enemy. The media protects Biden as
| much as possible, and the deep state tries to utilize him
| to get what they want (war, larger budgets, various
| globalist policies, war on domestic terrorism to set up a
| more advanced surveillance state).
|
| Biden's biggest problem by a dramatic margin, is the
| political center, which he has almost entirely lost
| already.
|
| If the right mocking Biden had any power behind it, he
| would have never won the election in the first place. It
| was close enough at the Electoral College that if the US
| media landscape were 50/50 left/right, Biden would not
| have prevailed.
|
| Obviously most everyone here understands that despite the
| flaws of the US, it generally doesn't disappear or exile
| as China does. The super structures that the left
| controls, which the right does not, do have very
| substantial power however (social media, big tech,
| hollywood, old media & news, journalism, education,
| welfare state).
| googlryas wrote:
| Snowden went on the run for stealing government documents,
| not for speaking out.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| False equivalence.
|
| Edward Snowden ran afoul of the boundaries for freedom of
| speech in a first world country. If he did the same thing as
| a Chinese in China, they would have sent a squad to
| repatriate him long ago (being in Russia is just a minor
| inconvenience).
|
| Just because the USA and China both have problems in this
| area doesn't make them anywhere near having the same scale
| and severity.
| mc32 wrote:
| Agreed. If Snowden had been Chinese and had exposed Chinese
| secrets like that and he escaped to Russia, Russia would
| have found reasons to return him and then there would have
| been a quick farcical trial and he'd've been executed and
| the family billed as well as ostracized. Had he escaped to
| Canada or Australia, etc., they have found a way for an
| accident to happen to him. Russia, China, N Korea, KSA,
| Iran deal with dissidents quite harshly.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| If he went to the USA and got governmental assistance he
| would be safe. In Russia he is definitely getting a lot
| of government protection otherwise he would have been
| "extraordinarily renditioned".
| mc32 wrote:
| Assange even though isn't protected by the UK isn't
| getting extraordinarily renditioned. Yes, the UK has
| treated him badly and we know Hillary wished him dead via
| drone, but so far, that has not happened (either
| extraordinarily renditioned nor droned) though it may
| come to pass that he gets extradited someday.
| lowkey_ wrote:
| I support Snowden, but "Every person deserves the freedom to
| criticize their leaders and to speak out against abuse" is
| not equal to "Every employee of secret government
| intelligence agencies deserves the freedom to steal thousands
| of government documents and release them to the press."
|
| Peng Shuai's situation is so far from Snowden -- if you're
| trying to point to a parallel between the US and China, it
| doesn't work. The US equivalent would be if the women who
| accused Trump, Kavanaugh, Cuomo, etc., of sexual harassment
| were kidnapped by the government.
| throwaway19937 wrote:
| There's a big difference between leaking intelligence
| information and criticizing your country's government.
| HenryKissinger wrote:
| The Party couldn't care less, unfortunately.
| xdennis wrote:
| What makes this worse is that it's not even political
| criticism. She accused him of a crime.
| crate_barre wrote:
| Does it have to be the CCP that disappeared her? China still has
| all the hallmarks of a third-world country with things like
| corruption, and certainly life is just as cheap as a place like
| Russia. Interested parties could have just had her off'd, no ccp
| needed.
|
| Say what you want about America, but we don't 'off' our #metoo
| people. I'm actually laughing in a sad way at how humans
| literally have an 'off' button in these other countries that
| these societies just flick. There really is another version of
| cancel-culture out there.
|
| _> The 35-year-old former top-ranked player in women 's doubles
| won titles at Wimbledon in 2013 and the French Open in 2014. Peng
| also participated in three Olympics_
|
| ^^ That person had an off button in China, unbelievable. I grow
| disillusioned by the moment.
| NalNezumi wrote:
| Absolutely horrifying how people can just "off" there, like a
| button. Unlike in the USA, where a high profile, human
| trafficker with connection to former presidents and
| billionaires, mysteriously "popped off" in the daylight by
| surveillance cameras "unfortunately" malfunctioning and guards
| mysteriously not in their place.
|
| Or some other guy, was he called Edward? That revealed that the
| government itself was breaking its own laws, sneaking and
| policing innocent citizen. Something proven even later by
| investigations by the government itself! and he still had to
| flee the country and can't come back!
|
| And 330 Million people, without fear of censorship or anything
| just "meh"ed it off
|
| Gee CCP have to step up their "off" game, truly horrifying that
| they still have to employ censorship and fear to do it!
| mshockwave wrote:
| it's absolutely possible and, unfortunately, not surprised CCP
| would do that.
| crate_barre wrote:
| From the wiki, looks like they are holding her:
|
| _On 17 November, Chinese state media outlet China Global
| Television Network released an email allegedly written by
| Peng to chief executive of WTA Steve Simon, which stated that
| she was resting at home and that her allegation of sexual
| assault was not true, and that she was not missing. The email
| also criticized the WTA for releasing what it claimed was
| unverified information about Peng without her consent. The
| authenticity of the email was cast in doubt with many
| pointing out that a typing cursor appears to be visible on
| the screenshot of the email. Responding in regard to the
| email, Simon stated that it only raised his concerns as to
| her safety and whereabouts. He reiterated that Peng 's sexual
| assault allegation must be investigated "with full
| transparency and without censorship"._
|
| CCP is insane.
| caiomassan wrote:
| > Say what you want about America, but we don't 'off' our
| #metoo people.
|
| Jeffrey Epstein was a suicide for sure.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| I'm pretty sure Jeffrey Epstein didn't voice any #metoo
| grievances.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| Functionally, he was about to, actually. If he went on
| trial he would have been compelled to give up names of
| sexual abusers.
| throw8932894 wrote:
| Why should government even comment on this? Accusations on social
| media are private matter, this crime was not even reported to
| police.
| poorjohnmacafee wrote:
| In CCP land you don't report to the police crimes of top CCP
| officials. I'm sure they won't comment, but it's a major
| scandal involving the "vice president" equivalent in the CCP, I
| think any other administration anywhere would comment.
| chrischen wrote:
| For things like this publicity is the only weapon.
| olliej wrote:
| Indeed, why should the government comment on the disappearance
| of a public figure just after they stated that they were
| sexually assaulted by a major figure in that government?
|
| What possible reason could there be?
| zht wrote:
| because the person making the accusation has been missing?
| saghm wrote:
| I mean, if the worry is that the government disappeared her,
| the police would at best not be much help and at worst be the
| ones who kidnapped her in the first place. The police saying it
| wasn't reported doesn't necessarily mean that's true, and even
| if it is, it doesn't necessarily mean much.
| xdennis wrote:
| > this crime was not even reported to police
|
| Maybe she would have, but it's difficult to report something
| when you've been disappeared.
| Romanulus wrote:
| This was touched on here (China Uncensored):
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuFayKQ3CTA
| olliej wrote:
| This just in: kidnapper has no knowledge of whereabouts of
| kidnapped person
| fodmap wrote:
| This kind of situation is sadly usual in China and the World
| tends to turn a blind eye, like with the 'Uyghurs situation' so I
| hope WTA keeps the pressure.
|
| Coincidentally I'm reading Red Roulette by Desmond Shum. His wife
| is in a similar state than Peng Shuai.
| outside1234 wrote:
| I'm sure she is "safely" in tiny pieces somewhere.
| bkishan wrote:
| It is a good thing that Andy Murray, Novak Djokovic and Serena
| Williams are speaking up. The WTA has also shown impressive
| courage in dealing with the matter.
| zibzab wrote:
| Yeah, kinda like the NBA but the opposite.
| e40 wrote:
| Except for Enes Kanter, but 100% agree.
| htk wrote:
| I was also very impressed with WTA. So much to lose financially
| and they not only didn't stay silent, but also took a hard
| stance.
| mc32 wrote:
| I am really encouraged by this. An organization as well as
| individual players risking millions on principle, which is very
| much unlike the NBA and even Apple Inc.
| powerapple wrote:
| As a Chinese I expect this: Peng Shuai is safe; Zhang is probably
| in investigation; investigation probably will last some time;
| Zhang is most likely over, if investigation finds evidence for
| anything else, he most likely will go to jail.
| xdennis wrote:
| Why do you expect her to be safe if she's not communicating?
| arvigeus wrote:
| She is probably in custody. I am very anti-CCP, but I don't
| believe they are that plain evil (or stupid) to simply kill
| someone - mafia style. Especially someone with such high
| profile.
|
| Look at what happened to Jack Ma - he was also "disappeared",
| but he showed couple of times since. Such a flamboyant
| persona like him to turn into a "monk" in just couple of
| months shows that CCP knows how to shut people up without
| harming them.
|
| When they release her she will also be put on a short leash
| and try staying lower than grass.
| phd514 wrote:
| How is disappearing someone in order to intimidate them
| into operating "on a short leash" anything other than plain
| evil?
| davorak wrote:
| Potentially you are talking about different things, the
| action and the organization.
|
| I can read
|
| > but I don't believe they are that plain evil
|
| so that the writer does not think the ccp is just evil,
| meaning they are more than just evil. So the writer might
| think the cpp does evil things probably including:
|
| > disappearing someone in order to intimidate them into
| operating "on a short leash"
|
| but without making the cpp just or only evil.
| newacct583 wrote:
| To be clear: "safe" in this context generally implies more
| than merely "physically unharmed". It's quite clear that
| Jack Ma was coerced into giving up control of Alibaba. It
| seems likely that Peng Shuai is being similarly pressured.
|
| Having authorities (for example) scream in your face about
| their ability to wreck your career and that of all your
| friends and family is not what most people would consider
| "safe".
| uoaei wrote:
| > without harming them
|
| Without leaving evidence of harm, maybe, but I wouldn't be
| so forthright as to claim that there is no harm. Torture
| tactics have become quite advanced and many leave invisible
| scars.
| crate_barre wrote:
| They most definitely threaten close and extended family
| members if they don't comply. That's the only reason I
| can see so many people buckling. It's one thing if you
| shame/hurt me, but I'd rather shut up before you take it
| out on anyone close to me.
|
| Peng Shuai can easily come over for Wimbledon or an
| Olympics and ask for amnesty and get it. But her family
| are at the CCPs mercy if she does that.
|
| 'We'll find everyone in your family, your family's
| family, and so on, you will never be in peace'. There's
| nothing more effective than that.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| When somebody defected from the Czechoslovak Socialist
| Republic, his/her relatives would be punished by being
| fired from good jobs and forbidden to take new ones;
| usually they had to do some harder and worse paid work.
| Unless they were members of the Party; in that case,
| their position was a bit shaken by a defection in family,
| but they usually could survive in place.
|
| And yeah, their kids were either banned from studying
| interesting majors, or at least their education became
| more complicated.
|
| This even concerned highly qualified people such as
| surgeons.
| yumraj wrote:
| In CCP China, _safe_ is probably a euphemism for being alive
| while in house arrest or prison.
| e-brake wrote:
| Safe, probably, but hopefully isn't going through what Ai
| Weiwei went through; 81 days in detention with two Chinese
| state military personnel looking over him 24 hours a day -
| while sleeping, going to the toilet...
| https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Expo_SACRED_Venice...
| chunghuaming wrote:
| As a Chinese I expect this: Peng Shuai, much like Jack Ma, has
| been kidnapped by the CCP, and tortured and brainwashed until
| she becomes a harmless sheep, much like Jack Ma. Then she will
| be released to do CCP's bidding, kind of like Jack Ma right now
| traveling in EU, trying to get EU secrets on farming to
| increase food production.
|
| Zhang, because he is part of the Jiang Zemin faction, which is
| against Xi Jing Ping action, will be dealt like most of Xi Jing
| Ping's opponent - crushed.
|
| Everyone should realize that basically, CCP is a gang. The
| biggest evil group of gangsters the world has ever seen.
| Selling body parts of concentration camp prisoners might just
| be the surface. It's hilarious that some people actually
| believe if US and the world somehow lost to CCP, we would be ok
| under CCP's rule.
|
| Sha Bi Ta Ma Gei Sha Bi Kai Men Zhen Shi Sha Bi Dao Jia Liao
| sudosysgen wrote:
| There are no EU secrets on farming. You can just ask any
| farmer how they do it. The actual gap in farming efficiency
| between China and the EU is fairly low for most basic crops,
| see: https://ourworldindata.org/crop-yields and compare crop
| yield gaps.
|
| It's very unlikely Jack Ma is trying to exfiltrate "secrets"
| of agricultural production from poor European farmers. You
| can just go and ask them. There are not really any secrets.
| curt15 wrote:
| >Everyone should realize that basically, CCP is a gang.
|
| And as you would expect of gangsters, to get leverage on
| someone they go after the person's family (e.g.
| https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgxdv7/chinese-police-are-
| vi...)
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(page generated 2021-11-19 23:01 UTC)