[HN Gopher] Designing transport for humans, not econs
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Designing transport for humans, not econs
Author : agronaut
Score : 20 points
Date : 2021-11-18 20:21 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (behavioralscientist.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (behavioralscientist.org)
| cultofmetatron wrote:
| I've been watching a channel that really opened my eyes on how
| terrible urban planning is in america.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RRE2rDw4k&ab_channel=NotJu...
| reidjs wrote:
| I strongly agree with "The greatest fallacy is that travel time
| is wasted time, so the only option is to speed it up or cut it
| out."
|
| Most people probably don't mind spending extra time traveling
| somewhere, especially if:
|
| - They can zone out, use their phone, or talk to friends while
| traveling.
|
| - They feel safe and strangers won't bother them
|
| - Comfortable climate (heating/cooling)
|
| - It is clear how to get to the destination, e.g., clear signage,
| GPS integration with a phone app, etc.
| sokoloff wrote:
| I'd agree with that to a point. It breaks down when the
| difference in time is greater than an hour. I'm not leaving
| Boston on a train to Las Vegas or a boat to Aruba.
|
| It also breaks down when the alternative transportation
| (typically an alternative to a car in the US) doesn't provide a
| key function that the car provides.
|
| If I'm going to play a round of golf or softball game after
| work, my car doubles as a secure (enough) locker for that
| equipment and transportation directly to the sports location.
| If I'm going to a town 30 miles away, my car serves as a
| conveyance not only for that 30 miles but also for local
| transit while I'm there. My car is likewise ready for me in 5
| minutes of walking to, unlocking, and starting it. I never
| "miss" my car by it leaving without me and once I'm there, I
| never have to wait for my next car to depart.
|
| If it was easy to displace cars, more progress would already
| have been made, because they're expensive already in terms of
| fixed costs. Once the fixed costs are covered, the apparent
| cost per incremental trip seems very modest.
| tuatoru wrote:
| You make very good points that I have not seen "shared
| mobility" advocates address. The idea that people will give
| up owning cars... well, it presumes a whole lot of other
| lifestyle changes have happened beforehand.
|
| Cars _must_ be very valuable. In a blog explaining why
| hydrogen will never be a transport fuel,[1] the author
| mentioned in passing that cars average well under 4%
| utilization, and the average fill frequency is once per
| month.
|
| To have something so expensive and little used, the option of
| being able to use it on demand must be _highly_ valuable. And
| as you say it 's secure storage and portage.
|
| 1. In a month, a steel-walled 200 bar hydrogen tank with 10
| mm (0.4 inch) thick walls will lose over 80% of its hydrogen
| through its walls.
| reidjs wrote:
| How would you feel about public lockers near high traffic
| areas as a potential solution to that? I know that there is
| the potential these will get robbed anyways, but cars get
| robbed all the time anyways (SF).
|
| There is definitely maintenance and cultural expenses for
| public lockers, but there's no way it's anywhere near as
| expensive or time consuming as maintaining roads.
| kristjansson wrote:
| Not public, but gyms/athletic clubs fit this description in
| some cities. If you have a private, permanent locker at a
| gym/club close to your office, you can stash clothes,
| equipment etc. to avoid hauling everything back and forth
| on transit.
|
| Doesn't really solve for sports like softball and golf that
| GP mentioned since those are in lower-traffic areas
| basically by necessity.
| sokoloff wrote:
| If would depend on the details whether or not they were
| competitive with a car's trunk.
|
| Can they fit a golf bag? Can I know that I'll get one when
| I show up? Is it roughly on the way? If I'm wanting to go
| home to office to golf to dinner/drinks to home in a day,
| how different is it to go home to transit to transit/locker
| to work to locker/transit to transit to golf to locker to
| dinner to locker to home?
|
| Before kids, I'd play sports 4-5 nights a week. These
| fields often take up a lot of space (it's obviously hard to
| fit a golf course in a high density area) meaning public
| transit would never be robust to get to them.
| SkeuomorphicBee wrote:
| I also strongly agree (with the original statement, and your
| own items). It is incredible how many urban planers and/or
| transport engineers subscribe to that fallacy, and consequently
| how the tides of consensus in planing forums/reddits/... are
| turning towards sub-optimal solutions. One thing that irks me
| on those forums is the resurgence of the idea of focusing on
| buses (as opposed to rail) in urban mass transport. No one
| seems to understand that buses are much more uncomfortable, and
| doesn't allow you to zone out because:
|
| - All kinds of strong accelerations (stopping on intersections,
| turning right angles, jumping around on hills or potholes),
| impossible to read anything without getting motion-sickness,
| and in extreme cases sometimes you have to use gym-equipment-
| like strength to just keep yourself from falling. - The time
| spent waiting for a bus at the stop or connection doesn't allow
| zoning out, you have to keep constantly on the lookout for the
| right bus among other buses and other traffic (while in a metro
| station you can completely forget about the world and still you
| won't miss a giant train arriving and opening its doors).
| tuatoru wrote:
| The best transport is no transport.
|
| The rules for residential zones need to change to require
| sidewalks, playgrounds, and parks, and to encourage low-
| traffic service businesses such as co-working spaces,
| professional services (e.g. accountants, lawyers, real estate
| offices, ...), convenience stores and small cafes (up to 10
| seat). And then there are lot size, lot coverage, and off-
| street parking rules to be abolished...
|
| Hand in hand with that we'll need new bank regulations to
| force them to finance suburbs that work for people and
| communities.
| agumonkey wrote:
| Beware, what you described sounds a lot like what France
| and other places did with projects in the 70s. Every thing
| was in reach, but for some obscure reason it collapsed in
| less than 20 years. Not saying it's a bad idea, but it's
| sociologically subtle.
| jltsiren wrote:
| When you build a new residential area, people move in
| with kids. After 15-20 years, kids move out, population
| collapses, and local services die. The best way to avoid
| this is building within / next to existing areas instead
| of building completely new areas.
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