[HN Gopher] Megaprocessor - A micro-processor built large (2016)
___________________________________________________________________
Megaprocessor - A micro-processor built large (2016)
Author : amadeuspzs
Score : 224 points
Date : 2021-11-18 11:14 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.megaprocessor.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.megaprocessor.com)
| FpUser wrote:
| Curious what factors limit clock to 8kHz.
| sbierwagen wrote:
| https://www.quora.com/How-is-transistor-density-related-to-c...
| errcorrectcode wrote:
| Worst case propagation delay.
| FpUser wrote:
| This does not make any sense. I can get way better delay /
| frequency wise on long USB cables. Something here does not
| compute.
| jdkee wrote:
| MOnSter 6502 for the curious.
|
| https://monster6502.com/
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Beautiful.
|
| Inspired by this great submission, I was instead at
| http://visual6502.org/JSSim/index.html - 6502 simulator in
| HTML5 with visual changes on the virtual circuitry.
| LargoLasskhyfv wrote:
| There is now https://github.com/floooh/v6502r as in
| _remixed_.
|
| Purposedly better, faster, and has Z80, too.
| qwerty456127 wrote:
| Can it run Doom? Or NetBSD? or whatever people would normally run
| on a PC?
| temeritatis wrote:
| I often wondered i could build some sort of general computing
| machine if we were pushed back to the dark ages or something. I
| guess you have to define exactly at what level of technological
| achievements we were pushed back to. But with the knowledge we
| have today, and without ICs (or advanced manufacturing
| facilities) and only "simple electronics" (whatever that would
| be) if this would be possible. Fun stuff to think about!
| galcerte wrote:
| In that case, if you want a somewhat entertaining very-high-
| level overview of what would need to be done, then there's a
| manga that showed this off a few chapters ago, it's called Dr.
| Stone. What stuck with me the most was that the purity needed
| for the silicon used in processors was absurdly high, so much
| so that they couldn't quite do that just yet, so they made a
| processor out of parametrons and used magnetic core memory. I
| knew semiconductors had to be very pure, but it was a bit
| discouraging to realize just how much effort it would take if
| you started from zero.
| sbierwagen wrote:
| >the purity needed for the silicon used in processors was
| absurdly high
|
| Yes. Silicon wafers are cut from a monocrystalline boule, a
| single flawless silicon crystal with no defects or
| inclusions. A big chunk of silicon atoms, nothing else at
| all. (Doping happens later) To the extent any physical object
| can be called "perfect", a semiconductor wafer is perfect.
|
| (Of course after manufacturing it will start picking up
| embedded hydrogen and helium atoms from cosmic rays and alpha
| particle background radiation.)
| [deleted]
| simp-in-a-box wrote:
| Wow, no idea Dr. Stone was that hardcore. That sounds
| watchable!
|
| edit: didn't pay attention that you were talking about the
| _manga_. That makes more sense. Sounds highly readable!
| umvi wrote:
| Dr. Stone is great but I also found it to be a bit too hand-
| wavy. In real life you can't just build steam engines with a
| small village worth of labor + a "master craftsman". Mining,
| transporting, and refining iron ore alone is a huge task that
| could easily consume every drop of the village's labor
| resources and still not produce much iron. Fuel is also a
| huge task. Unless you have a high quality coal mine nearby,
| you have to create charcoal which is also very labor
| intensive (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzLvqCTvOQY).
| I just can't fathom how Senku realistically makes processors
| unless he has a nation state worth of labor at his disposal.
|
| But yeah, it is a fun "what if".
|
| "What if a super genius with the entirety of wikipedia in his
| brain were sent back to the stone age? Could he rebuild
| modern society?"
| Jtsummers wrote:
| At least with iron, you'd have the benefit of the existing
| refined ore lying all around you in a post-apocalyptic
| setting. There's little need for actually mining iron ore
| anymore if your population has been reduced by 99% or more.
| You can walk down any abandoned street and find sources of
| iron and other metals. Now, there's still the refining
| process (but it would be shorter from something already
| processed) and fuel to contend with.
| userbinator wrote:
| Babbage's analytical engine comes close, and doesn't even use
| electricity.
| kens wrote:
| Looking historically, you have a bunch of options for a pre-IC
| computer; there were lots of pre-IC computers. Transistors, of
| course, or vacuum tubes give you a useful computer. You can
| build a computer from relays, but the performance is pretty
| bad. Memory is also very important. Magnetic core memory is the
| way to go if you don't have ICs. None of this is going to help
| you if you went to the dark ages.
|
| As far as mechanical devices, mechanical calculating machines
| didn't arise until the late 1600s and weren't reliable for many
| years. It's unlikely that you'd be capable of building a
| mechanical computer until the industrial revolution. Note that
| Babbage was unsuccessful in building his machines even in the
| late 1800s.
|
| If your goal is to build a Turing-complete machine of some
| sort, even if totally impractical, you could push the date back
| a lot. But that would be more of a curiosity than a useful
| computer.
| Joker_vD wrote:
| For arithmetic, pinwheel calculator (aka "Odhner's
| arithmometer") [0] is a pretty decent and reliable mechanical
| device. You can even give it an electric motor for doing the
| rotations for you and a numerical keyboard.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinwheel_calculator
| jhgb wrote:
| On that note, I was wondering on several occasions whether it
| would have been technologically possible to build neon lamp
| logic circuits in Babbage's time. Aside from the problem of
| building an air liquifier a few decades early, I don't see any
| really major technological hurdles there. That would have
| nicely solved his problems with mechanical manufacturing...
| mkreis wrote:
| You can even build a binary machine without electronics, have a
| look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z1_(computer)
| kohsuke wrote:
| I forgot which book it was (maybe "the three body problem"?)
| but there was a science fiction story where a Chinese king
| makes his soldier act as a logical gate and his army becomes a
| computer. I was like, wow, I didn't think about that, but it
| totally makes sense!!
| Sander_Marechal wrote:
| There's an XKCD for everything :-) https://xkcd.com/505/
| gpm wrote:
| That is the three body problem, and while avoiding spoilers,
| not exactly a Chinese king.
| ezconnect wrote:
| In the dark ages you can build gears. Gears can do arithmetic
| and calculus.
| dhosek wrote:
| The catch is that there are tolerance issues. Doron Swade's
| account of building the two existing Difference Engine #2
| models
| (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0670910201/donhosek)
| is a good example of where the challenges lie. It was _just
| barely_ possible to do with 19th century technology. Physical
| mechanisms deviate from theory by quite a bit.
| ezconnect wrote:
| Antikythera mechanism was built before the Dark Ages, he
| just wanted to go back to the Dark Ages so he can do
| precision work by that time, he can probably build a
| battleship fire control system at that time.
|
| edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwf5mAlI7Ug
| hypertele-Xii wrote:
| Now he just needs to build a battleship to go with it!
| 95014_refugee wrote:
| Then the next question is; what would you _do_ with it?
|
| You need a source of problems to solve, and until you've
| bootstrapped the rest of society at least to the point where
| something like high-resolution trigonometric tables, desktop
| publishing, high-speed accounting, (for example) are needed,
| the effort isn't going to keep you fed...
| tyingq wrote:
| I agree it wouldn't be high on the list, but I also imagine
| there would be practical needs. Like command/control. So,
| voice only radios first, but some sort of messaging that
| doesn't need a live listener on the radio would then be a
| nice next step. And that could be done with a simple
| computer.
| kjs3 wrote:
| Calculate ballistics, like some of the original computers
| were created for? Never too early post-apocolypse to start
| the thinking about the next war.
| deltaonefour wrote:
| The first computing machines used relays which are
| electromechanical mechanical switches. Current would flow into
| an electric magnetic and it would magnetize a switch and close
| a loop thereby switching something "on." By placing these
| switches together into different configurations you could form
| equivalent logic gates.
|
| Sometimes insects or moths would get stuck in the relays which
| would screw up the system. This is the origin of the word
| "bug."
|
| Prior to incorporating logic into electronics, computing
| machines were hand cranked or motor cranked gear machines. See:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhUfRIeRSZE. The YouTube video
| literally is a hand cranked portable calculator.
|
| The world you envision has already existed.
| agalunar wrote:
| The use of the term "bug" in engineering predates automatic
| computers by nearly a century; the Wiki article [1] on the
| topic gives a pretty good summary of its history.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bug_(engineering)#History
| [deleted]
| hypertele-Xii wrote:
| > The YouTube video literally is a hand cranked portable
| calculator.
|
| It can even do _square roots?!_ That 's amazing. And it fits
| the palm of your hand!
|
| Now we're down to specks of sand calculating so fast they
| melt without cooling. Seriously wtf.
| Koshkin wrote:
| No need in electronics whatsoever - mechanical computing is a
| sufficiently advanced engineering discipline, as, incidentally,
| is fluidics!
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidics
| 52-6F-62 wrote:
| Good point!
|
| I used to play that same thought experiment with more basic
| utilities like my toaster with it's various settings and
| electronic controllers. Then I was given a Dualit. No more
| philosophical dilemmas!
|
| Kidding aside, it's always staggering how far removed we really
| are from operating on (humanly) first principles. Humbling.
| adrianN wrote:
| There are many people on the internet researching how basic
| things can be made in a low-tech fashion. I particularly
| enjoy https://simplifier.neocities.org/ for example.
|
| But if you read those blogs you still notice the mind
| boggling height of the giants whose shoulders the bloggers
| stand on. Having access to simple chemicals like acids or
| various salts for example is huge. I wouldn't even know where
| to start if I had to bootstrap a highschool chemistry kit
| starting with nothing but my hands and my knowledge.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| The Dr. Stone manga provides an interesting perspective on
| how you'd bootstrap that chemistry kit.
| adrianN wrote:
| 219 chapters and ongoing. Whew. This confirms my
| suspicion that bootstrapping is really hard.
| magicalhippo wrote:
| Relay computers are relatively simple to make, and require just
| electromechanical relays.
|
| Some semi-random examples
|
| https://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/
|
| https://relaycomputer.co.uk/
|
| Main issue is memory. Takes a lot of space to make any usable
| about of memory out of relays.
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| First gen transistor computers often used standard functional
| units - gates, flip flops, and such - packaged into small
| modules with edge connectors and wired together with wire wrap
| on a backplane. Like this DEC PDP-8.
|
| http://www.oldcomputers.arcula.co.uk/files/images/pdp8104.jp...
|
| It's fairly easy to design a computer like this.
|
| Later TTL/CMOS designs replaced the packaged modules with much
| smaller 74xx/40xx ICs.
|
| You can make basic logic gates with just diodes and resistors,
| but you need transistors for inversion, buffering, and a usable
| flip flop.
|
| That's probably the minimum level for useful
| computing/calculating. If civilisation has ended and you have
| no transistors you probably don't have the resources to make
| glass valves either, so that's going to be a problem.
|
| Of course there's always clockwork...
| Koshkin wrote:
| A famous example of a modular design is IBM's Solid Logic
| Technology that was used in their System/360:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Solid_Logic_Technology
| pavlov wrote:
| These modules seem to be the primary influence on sci-fi
| movie computer design, starting with HAL in "2001".
|
| When sci-fi writers need to create some plot tension around
| getting a computer either up and running or down and
| disarmed, the characters will inevitably be
| plugging/unplugging colorful modules at some point.
| dhosek wrote:
| We could use vacuum tubes instead of transistors.
|
| (I googled this to make sure I wasn't misremembering what I
| read 40 years ago in an already outdated book at the library
| and I was suddenly filled with a sense memory of the smell of
| the interiors of old electric appliances loaded with tubes
| and dust.)
| bashinator wrote:
| We could use telegraph relays instead of vacuum tubes -
| might be better reliability and repairability.
| Koshkin wrote:
| Except that mechanical contacts are the bane of all
| things electrical. Vacuum tubes are lightyears ahead of
| relays in this regard.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| Repairability, yes. Reliability, no.
| kjs3 wrote:
| Yes...there were a couple of generations of what we would
| recognize as vaguely 'modern' computers (say...roughly
| ENIAC to the IBM 704/709) built completely out of stuff
| that looked like this:
|
| http://www.righto.com/2018/01/examining-1954-ibm-
| mainframes-...
| mburns wrote:
| CollapseOS is a z80-based forth that is targeted at
| bootstrapping computing from scavengable components in old
| electronics.
|
| https://collapseos.org/
| zanethomas wrote:
| I think the minicomputers of the 70s well-represent the halfway
| point between there and what we have today.
|
| At Basic Four Corporation I worked on systems built from 8"x11"
| circuit boards. A CPU might consist of two such cards joined on
| the front by a couple flat 50-pin cables and to the other
| components by a backplane.
|
| Disk Controller: 1 board Terminal controller: 1 board etc
|
| https://www.ricomputermuseum.org/collections-gallery/equipme...
|
| Would be interesting to see some enterprising soul recreate a
| modern computer in such a form factor.
| bitwize wrote:
| I am unaware of many Hackernews who had even _heard_ of Basic
| Four, let alone worked there! Did you know Chuck Milden?
| zanethomas wrote:
| If I did I don't remember him. :) How are you familiar with
| Basic Four?
| bitwize wrote:
| Chuck was president of ICS, which was acquired by Basic
| Four in like the mid-70s. I only met him long after, but he
| told me stories. Including one about how he wheeled an
| Apple II into the Basic Four boardroom and demonstrated it,
| saying in effect "this is the future, and if you're not on
| board with the microcomputer revolution you'll be left
| behind". They decided to pass, and continue figuring out
| ways to sell $50,000 hard disks to existing customers. And
| that's why most of Hackernews hasn't heard of Basic Four :)
|
| I do know that MAI ended up selling microcomputer based
| products eventually, but by that time they were well into
| day-late-dollar-short territory and would continue to lose
| ground along with all the other minicomputer vendors like
| PRIME that hardly anyone these days has heard of.
| zanethomas wrote:
| Basic Four was about 300 employees when I landed there
| and having spent most of my time in manufacturing I
| didn't rub elbows with upper management. Although they
| did rub elbows with me once when they thought I was
| stealing their operating system. But that's a whole
| nother story. :)
| marcodiego wrote:
| If the ISA is sufficiently efficient, 8kHz is fast enough to run
| interpreters. An 8kHz can be useful as a calculator, running
| thing similar to FORTRAN and, if is has suitable I/O, maybe run a
| BASIC or CHIP-8 interpreter.
| Maakuth wrote:
| Alternatively it works if you are sufficiently patient.
| tyingq wrote:
| In the same space of using discrete components instead of ICs ,
| the Monster6502: https://monster6502.com/
|
| Note: Well, there are some quad transistor array chips, but that
| seems still in the same spirit.
| trasz wrote:
| That giant slider pot to adjust clock speed is awesome.
| osamagirl69 wrote:
| The mega processor is one of my all-time favorite computers,
| along with the Magic-1 https://homebrewcpu.com/
|
| The megaprocessor is just absolutely wonderful in how it bridges
| from 'here is a transistor, it lights an LED' to 'here is a
| computer, it plays tetris'. I always struggled to unwind the
| layers of abstraction in a modern computer from atoms in the CPU
| to running python, but being able to just look at a bunch of
| literal transistors (with LEDs on each gate!) wired up playing
| tetris shows how a computer really works in such a profound and
| awe inspiring fashion.
|
| Magic-1 is sort of the next level higher complexity, where it is
| made out of very simple TTL (most complicated chip function is
| the ALU--a circuit I had to build as an EE undergrad out of or-
| and and- gates) and it hosts a webpage. It currently seems to be
| down, but you can see it on the wayback machine
| https://web.archive.org/web/20210815180101/http://www.magic-...
|
| I will never forget when I came across that site and realized
| that I was interacting with a wirewrapped pile of ram and nor
| gates over the internet. There was even a time when you could
| telnet in and play some retro text-based adventure games, To this
| day, the only time I have played Adventure was on Magic-1.
| IanWard1 wrote:
| Love this kind of build, so I'm working on a little breadboard
| one myself https://www.youtube.com/IanWard1 similar to the Ben
| Eater 8-bit CPU videos
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyznrdDSSGM&list=PLowKtXNTBy...
| (which are amazing and everyone should watch)
| criddell wrote:
| Charles Petzold's book _Code: The Hidden Language of Computer
| Hardware and Software_ explains a computer from the ground up.
|
| I don't know if the ideas still apply to modern computers, but
| it's pretty cool understanding how things like addresses are
| decoded and instructions are constructed and executed at the
| gate level in a very basic microprocessor.
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| I'm partial to the Gigatron[0] myself. Built entirely using a
| mere 34 TTL ICs available in the 70s (930 logic gates) and it's
| capable of driving a VGA monitor and 4-bit sound while running
| at 6.25Mhz. In my opinion, it is beautifully simple and
| elegant.
|
| [0] https://gigatron.io
| Milner08 wrote:
| Tom Scott has done videos where this has been either used
| directly as part of the video or has been in the background.
|
| For example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5JC9Ve1sfI - It
| certainly makes for a cool background.
| ozarkerD wrote:
| This is AWESOME
| LolWolf wrote:
| It is very, very cool :)
| cushychicken wrote:
| Wait - this thing runs _Windows?!_ I figured it ran some kind of
| bytecode or toy OS. That 's very neat that it runs a commercial
| operating system.
|
| I'd seen this post before but I'd never noticed the monitor with
| the Windows login screen.
| the-dude wrote:
| I doubt it. There seem to be several SBCs in the picture with
| the Windows terminal.
|
| The Windows terminal is probably used to communicate with the
| megaprocessor.
| Liquid_Fire wrote:
| It definitely does not run Windows. It has 32 kB of RAM, 16-bit
| registers and a custom instruction set. That will never run
| Windows 1, let alone Windows 7 :)
| sundvor wrote:
| That's still more memory than my old Vic20 had. :)
| orbital-decay wrote:
| Hah, of course not. The PC acts as a terminal/controller for
| this machine. Running Windows 7 on a 8 KHz CPU is impossible,
| even on a x86-compatible one. WinXP has been shown to run on an
| extremely underclocked 8 MHz Pentium CPU, booting in half an
| hour: https://winhistory.de/more/386/xpmini_en.htm
| garaetjjte wrote:
| If you have enough RAM and patience, you can emulate anything
| even on small CPU. eg. https://dmitry.gr/?r=05.Projects&proj=
| 07.%20Linux%20on%208bi...
| colonwqbang wrote:
| It has only 256 bytes of RAM
| adrianN wrote:
| 30,000 minutes are more than 20 days. That's a lot of
| patience to boot Windows.
| diordiderot wrote:
| This is currently sitting in the computing history museum in
| Cambridge. 10 pounds entry. They have loads of old computers and
| consoles
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| Massachusetts or UK?
| sbierwagen wrote:
| Would a museum in the United States have an admission fee
| denominated in pounds?
| billsmithaustin wrote:
| No. It's a computing museum so the admission fee would be
| denominated in "pound coin".
| LaputanMachine wrote:
| UK. Here's the Megaprocessor on the museum's website:
| https://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/43063/The-
| Megaproces...
| [deleted]
| ryanmercer wrote:
| That is fantastically impressive and reminds me of something Sam
| Altman said once
|
| "Alan Kay gave me an Alto. That's not the very last computer that
| I think is within my capability to understand everything that's
| happening in there, but it's getting near the end."
| https://mastersofscale.com/sam-altman-why-customer-love-is-a...
|
| This is a visual representation of about what I understand about
| a processor and still outside of what I could actually make
| without a lot of reference material.
| alberto_ol wrote:
| Previous submission, 88 comments
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12317217
| dTal wrote:
| Missed opportunity to call it a "macroprocessor".
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-11-18 23:01 UTC)