[HN Gopher] How to grow sodium chloride crystals at home
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How to grow sodium chloride crystals at home
Author : kdavis
Score : 537 points
Date : 2021-11-17 16:54 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (crystalverse.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (crystalverse.com)
| djrogers wrote:
| These are beautiful. Seems that a possible solution to the
| problem outlined at the end of the post (they are not quite
| cubical, but flat) would be to gently flip them a few times
| during the months they are growing.
| mh-cx wrote:
| I've never seen this before and wonder how stable/fragile are
| those crystals? Are they very touch-sensitive or can you carry
| them around easily in your pocket?
| nojs wrote:
| I've done this as a kid and they're not really fragile. You
| could definitely carry it in your pocket.
| dylan604 wrote:
| "If it looks like picture 4 or 5, let it grow anyway. "
|
| Anyone got a location on picture 5?
| Kikawala wrote:
| It should say "If it looks like picture 3 or 4, let it grow
| anyway."
| ulzeraj wrote:
| I'm ashamed to confess that licking those pretty cubes was the
| first thing that passed through my mind.
| at_a_remove wrote:
| I have often wondered what sorts of crystals that you can grow at
| home that are relatively hard, sturdy, long-lasting.
| jackallis wrote:
| looks like a fun a project to work with kids
| anorphirith wrote:
| is that even legal ?
| ffhhj wrote:
| Is it possible to grow crystals in moulds to give them custom
| shapes?
| Borrible wrote:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_garden
| fcatalan wrote:
| My daughter has this as an school assignment, with some
| implication that it is some sort of a contest, and we managed to
| grow quite a few of similar quality to the seed crystals on the
| site in 4 days, which was the original (poorly thought IMO)
| deadline. The trouble is that no one else was able or cared to do
| it so fast, so the deadline has been slipping for a couple weeks
| now, with our best crystals going to school and back a few times,
| getting scratches and broken bits instead of nicely growing
| undisturbed. A bit discouraging. I'm now remembering how
| frustrating was for me to take school related things too
| seriously and discover you cared more than your teachers when I
| was her age.
| 5faulker wrote:
| Could be a good self-sufficiency project too.
| dekhn wrote:
| We managed? When I was a kid I never got help from my parents
| on these projects, and hated the kids who "won" because their
| parent helped.
|
| On the other hand, being the competitive person who excels in
| science projects is often a very good predictor for being able
| to handle the tedium of a scientific lab job.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| I was enamored with "Things of Science" when I was a kid. So
| much so I began collecting them off eBay, scanning the little
| science booklet and sharing them for posterity.
|
| As such I love DIY science like this.
|
| Regarding crystals, I have scanned in and cleaned up two
| projects relating to crystals:
|
| http://underlandia.com/index.php/2017/09/24/things-of-
| scienc...
|
| http://underlandia.com/index.php/2020/08/21/things-of-
| scienc...
| zt9 wrote:
| @JKCalhoun just got this account to say thank you for this
| - I am home schooling with my kids this year and this is a
| gem of a find.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| Thank you for sharing Things of Science!
| detritus wrote:
| My daughter's only 2 and a bit right now, but I can totally
| envision an environment wherein I'm acting as an idiot sub-
| lab assistant role, helping with the basics of her demands.
|
| Of course, I'd not want to do her work for her, but more than
| equally, I'd be quite happy to have a '5% We-encouraging' in
| her vocabulary when it comes to her explaining herself. What
| parent wouldn't, if they can?
| dctoedt wrote:
| The sitcom _Modern Family_ had an episode in which kids had
| to do an egg-drop project and were helped by their respective
| parents.
|
| https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Egg_Drop
| fcatalan wrote:
| When I was a kid I never got help from my parents either and
| I now think that I would have benefited from a bit of closer
| attention. I developed a huge spectrum of bad practices and
| behaviours that I'm inclined to think I could have avoided at
| least in part. I want to think there's some space between
| doing their homework for them and not caring about the
| minutiae of their education, and I want to be there.
| koolba wrote:
| > I want to think there's some space between doing their
| homework for them and not caring about the minutiae of
| their education, and I want to be there.
|
| Even showing a lack of interest in their pointless projects
| is a life lesson in priorities and individualism.
| fcatalan wrote:
| But the project isn't pointless!
|
| For example, most of my help was to make sure she took 10
| different containers and placed them in different
| locations around the house to increase the probability of
| getting a few decent crystals. I discussed redundance
| with her in the context of explaining why some of her
| friends were not getting results from their single try. I
| think that these practical thought patterns are extremely
| valuable, better than creating a miniature jaded adult...
| cornell532 wrote:
| You sound like a great parent doing right by your
| daughter. She's lucky to have you.
|
| The point of school is to learn to think + learn to face
| adversity & failure....
| wilkommen wrote:
| You're doing good. Just cause someone else's childhood
| sucked and they feel like they learned something from it
| doesn't mean it's a good thing. You learn a lot more
| about how to live well from being loved than you learn
| from being ignored and neglected.
| bawolff wrote:
| > Even showing a lack of interest in their pointless
| projects is a life lesson in priorities and
| individualism.
|
| If you teach your kid the lesson that life sucks and
| trying is for suckers, don't be surprised when they
| believe it and don't get anywhere in life because they
| never try.
| spaetzleesser wrote:
| "When I was a kid I never got help from my parents on these
| projects, and hated the kids who "won" because their parent
| helped."
|
| I wish my parents had shown interest in stuff like this and
| supported me to some degree. It's not about doing the whole
| project for the kids but showing interest is super helpful. I
| often gave up on stuff because my dad would basically say
| "what's this nonsense for?"
|
| I noticed this when read books about Steve Wozniak and
| Richard Feynman. Their dads showed interest and encouraged
| them to explore the world and also challenged them from time
| to time.
| csa wrote:
| > When I was a kid I never got help from my parents on these
| projects, and hated the kids who "won" because their parent
| helped.
|
| These can be two different things:
|
| 1. Constructive help from parents has (at least) two
| components. First, it shows your child you care. This may
| seems small, but it's not. Second, and I think this is what a
| lot of HNers would appreciate, is to help your child to
| develop good processes. There is a lot that goes into this,
| and it can be parent-centered or child-centered, but having
| your child reflect on process and (ideally) implement some
| good processes can really set them up for later in life.
| Imho, parents should have to write a short narrative about
| what involvement they had in their child's project, if any.
| This is required at some of the local schools where I live.
|
| 2. Having the parents do the project for the child is just
| silly. Most decent teachers can see through this (assuming
| they care). Congrats to the adult parent for winning
| elementary school or middle school as an adult. :-/
| sokoloff wrote:
| > Most decent teachers can see through this (assuming they
| care).
|
| I entered the science fair as a kindergartner with a poster
| project explaining how (the output color-mixing of a) color
| TV worked.
|
| Principal accused my parents of doing it; they had no idea
| what he was talking about and protested that I'd done it.
| So he interviewed me about it and left convinced I'd done
| it. ;)
| Waterluvian wrote:
| I know exactly how you feel. Very frustrating and sometimes
| disenchanting to discover they don't really care.
|
| But perhaps also a good life lesson because that happens all
| the time. It's good to try and develop a healthy self-driven
| passion. Oh, you don't care? That's fine because I do and I
| learned a lot.
| seanalltogether wrote:
| More discussion from original poster.
| https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/qvxyjg/a...
| philipkglass wrote:
| Calcium tartrate is a great high speed introduction to crystal
| growing because it is very forgiving and "magical." You can get
| ~millimeter size crystals in seconds. Then once you're hooked you
| can try growing crystals that require more patience/technique. If
| you ever saw the demonstration of lead (II) iodide precipitating
| from solution [1], this demonstration looks similar except that
| the crystals are sparkly and colorless instead of sparkly and
| golden.
|
| You'll need potassium hydrogen tartrate (cream of tartar), sodium
| hydrogen carbonate (baking soda), and calcium chloride (sold as
| DampRid or Pickle Crisp).
|
| Add a spoon full of baking soda and a spoon full of cream of
| tartar to a glass of distilled water. They should fizz together
| as the baking soda neutralizes the acidity of the cream of
| tartar, releasing CO2. This is what you want, since the mixed
| neutral salt of tartaric acid is more soluble in water. Stir and
| wait for the fizzing to die down, then gradually stir in small
| portions of more cream of tartar until the additions stop
| dissolving. Let the solids settle in the glass.
|
| Meanwhile, dissolve a spoon full of calcium chloride in a second
| glass of water. It should dissolve readily with a bit of
| stirring.
|
| Once residual solids have settled in glass one, decant the clear
| liquid into another glass.
|
| Now pour the clear decanted liquid into the calcium chloride
| solution with stirring. Within seconds, you should see sparkling
| needles rain out of the solution. These are your crystals. The
| transition is especially striking in direct sunlight. The
| crystals can be saved and seem to remain stable in air regardless
| of ambient humidity.
|
| I unfortunately have not seen this demonstration written down
| elsewhere so I can't offer a citation. I came to it by personal
| experience when I was on a crystal growing kick as a kid. (Though
| it may well have been written down somewhere that I have never
| come across.)
|
| [1] Like in this video:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO67MnZaAvQ
| BuildTheRobots wrote:
| Do you know how safe the resulting crystals are to handle?
| philipkglass wrote:
| I believe that they are safe to handle. None of the compounds
| or elements involved are toxic at moderate doses even if
| ingested. I personally handled these crystals with bare hands
| many times.
| huhtenberg wrote:
| Potassium bitartrate is also a great introduction to crystals.
|
| Get a bottle of good red wine, 2010 or thereabouts. Uncork and
| drink it. Now look at the bottom of the last glass, if you
| still can, and - voila - potassium bitartrate.
|
| If you don't find any, don't despair and try another bottle.
| drran wrote:
| Search for <<Rochelle salt piezoelectric crystals>>.
| invalidusernam3 wrote:
| Assuming these are edible when complete? I could imagine these
| for fancy dinner parties where each diner gets a crystal and a
| small cheese grater
| stingrae wrote:
| I don't think a cheese grater would work? A hammer would be the
| tool I would go for.
| darkwizard42 wrote:
| Seems like it is edible given the only ingredients to start
| were salt and water. I don't know about the durability though.
| Do these break easily or are they very dense?
|
| Guess we gotta grow some!
| jrockway wrote:
| Welp, this is a silly project that I have no choice but to try.
| Looks straightforward and rewarding with a nifty end result.
|
| This is a content-less comment but... great article, thank you
| for submitting.
| legohead wrote:
| There's also "salt pyramids" [1] which are desired in Culinary
| field for their look and texture. Be pretty cool if there was a
| way to grow a transparent salt-pyramid.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVEZuzEHwQk
| jedimastert wrote:
| I'm glad you linked to the Adam Ragusea video, you saved me the
| trouble of finding it.
|
| I really like Adam's videos, he does a ton of research, and has
| a very descriptivist approach to cooking in general
| hansjorg wrote:
| There's a section about pyramids in the article:
| https://crystalverse.com/sodium-chloride-crystals/#saltpyram...
| thunderbong wrote:
| What a fantastic article! I didn't know it was possible to grow
| crystals like that from salt. Have to try this!
| alhirzel wrote:
| NaCl is a lensing material in the LWIR bands, this could lead to
| very cool applications for cheap thermal cameras
| teeray wrote:
| I'm intrigued, but no nothing about lensing materials or the
| LWIR band. Care to expand or link to a good resource for
| learning more?
| alhirzel wrote:
| FLIR has a good handbook on some of the physics: https://www.
| flirmedia.com/MMC/THG/Brochures/T559243/T559243_...
|
| The rest is light transport, e.g. lensing via index of
| refraction: https://courses.lumenlearning.com/boundless-
| physics/chapter/...
|
| Here's a cool article on a piece of an old spectrometer:
| https://utsic.utoronto.ca/spectroscopy-beyond-the-visible-
| sp...
|
| More information from a distributor of optics:
| https://www.knightoptical.com/stock/default/windows-and-
| diff...
| rbobby wrote:
| > it will probably double in size in a week and reach 1x1 cm in a
| month
|
| TIL it takes a long time to grow a perfect salt crystal of any
| size.
| avian wrote:
| > Indeed, table salt is often used in kids' experiments to
| demonstrate crystallization. It's a simple activity, but the
| results are disappointing.
|
| I remember this was one of the things I tried countless times as
| a kid. It never worked - the books showed these nice, clear
| crystals but all I ever got was a crust of dried salt and maybe
| one tiny crystal a few mm across.
|
| I'm sure most of those "science for kids" book authors never
| tried a single one of their experiments.
| jareklupinski wrote:
| i tried a similar 'experiment' once with sugar to make rock
| candy, failed the first attempt
|
| my grandma saw and told me to use the rest of the string and
| sugar I had, enough for 12 more tries, and do them at once but
| in different areas of the house
|
| only two actually grew but i learned the value of spreading
| risk and unknown unknowns ( much later, on reflection :) )
| dylan604 wrote:
| Did this as a kid as well. When I got to high school
| chemistry, we did an experiment on super saturation of the
| sugar. Much better results, much faster!
| sumtechguy wrote:
| hehe I did that super saturation thing as a kid. one of the
| instructions was pour until saturation happens. It didnt. I
| ended up with 5 pounds of rock candy.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Did you do the version where you let the super saturated
| solution cool down slowly, and then drop a single grain
| of sugar into it?
| dekhn wrote:
| When I wanted crystals for microscopy, I made a mother
| liquor by pouring an enormous amount of sugar in a tiny
| amount of water (beyond saturation) and then just let the
| solvent evaporate in a heated chamber.
|
| Made big rocks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_liquor
| dylan604 wrote:
| Never heard that term before. Not sure I understand the
| point though. After you supersaturate and then form
| crystals, the mother liquor is just the left over content
| that didn't make it into the crystals. What is the
| purpose of using those remnants?
| dekhn wrote:
| mainly to get more crystals and as a growth medium for
| existing crystals.
| spike021 wrote:
| We did a rock candy experiment in 6th grade and probably
| attempted it a few separate times, specifically because we
| kept having issues. I think at least one batch got moldy.
| But, if I'm remembering correctly (this is over a decade
| ago), we may have been placing the dishes near where sunlight
| hit, so that could've been part of it.
| carlos_rpn wrote:
| Could it be the requirement for "Uniodized table salt"? I don't
| think I'd be able to find it around here, and I can't think of
| any good reason someone would have it on hand either.
| smeyer wrote:
| Have you actually checked your grocery store? Mine sells both
| iodized and uniodized table salt, in addition to the kosher
| salt idea that folks have mentioned. I know the OP said that
| they worried about anti-caking agents in kosher salt and I'm
| no expert, but I thought they didn't usually have them.
| JoeDaDude wrote:
| 'twould appear that non-iodized salt is used in cheese
| making, so maybe salt labeled as cheese making salt might
| work.
| robocat wrote:
| Perhaps get a 20kg / 40lb bag of pool salt for $20.
|
| I'm not sure about purity or anti-caking, although some
| brands are advertised as high purity. You can even get it
| delivered in the US: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=pool+salt
|
| Perhaps look at the 20kg bags of food salt sold at
| wholesalers, which might not be iodised. I recall seeing one
| at a Chinese store, but I'm in New Zealand, so I'm unsure
| about the US.
| btilly wrote:
| The article says that iodized table salt doesn't work, and
| isn't optimistic about kosher salt either.
| nitrogen wrote:
| If you can get "kosher salt," IIRC that should be non-
| iodized.
| derobert wrote:
| If you look for canning / pickling salt, that should be free
| of both iodine and anti-caking agents.
| outworlder wrote:
| What about dishwasher salt? It's usually 100% sodium
| chloride.
| jldugger wrote:
| I dont think anyone in the US sells that tho.
| unwind wrote:
| What? Why not?
|
| A quick check of Amazon.com [1] turned up a bunch of US-
| looking products, at least.
|
| [1]: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=dishwasher+salt&crid=X602
| 5PAVFBMS...
| jldugger wrote:
| The only brand I even recognize is Finish, and they're a
| UK firm, not American. Technology Connections mentions[1]
| it's a European thing: "I have never ever encountered
| one, and I don't think I've ever seen dishwasher salt
| sold in a store."
|
| [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU&t=2098s
| outworlder wrote:
| > The only brand I even recognize is Finish, and they're
| a UK firm, not American
|
| Plenty of non-american firms sell products in the US.
| Like... I don't know, Nestle?
|
| I watched the same Technology Connections video. He does
| mention Bosch dishwashers by name. Those are available in
| the US. It's just that people barely bother understanding
| how dishwashers work, let alone _very infrequently_
| refilling the salt. Heck, people drive without checking
| tire pressures, dishwasher salt has no hope.
|
| Not surprising that most stores don't bother. It lasts
| forever too.
| jsmith45 wrote:
| Dishwasher salt is not actually widely available in the US,
| since we we generally don't have dishwashers with built in
| water softeners that need the salt.
|
| Most places either have soft water from their water supply,
| or people install a whole house water softener, if their
| water is hard enough to cause problems with mineralizing on
| dishes.
|
| The salt for the whole house water softener would probably
| work, but the bags are pretty huge.
| outworlder wrote:
| > Dishwasher salt is not actually widely available in the
| US
|
| I am in the Bay Area. I bought some off Amazon no
| problem. It came from the US too.
|
| > since we we generally don't have dishwashers with built
| in water softeners that need the salt.
|
| Landlord installed a Bosch dishwasher, which has a water
| softener. The water is pretty hard (I can see by the
| shower faucet, and confirmed on the utility website). I'm
| assuming he didn't bother to import the dishwasher from
| Europe so it must be available in the US.
| nitrogen wrote:
| _I 'm sure most of those "science for kids" book authors never
| tried a single one of their experiments. _
|
| They should at least recommend distilled water because tap
| water impurities vary greatly from place to place.
| leoc wrote:
| Parents! Are your teens getting into "salt"? Know the signs.
| ttoinou wrote:
| Looks really good. My three chemicals for crystal growing are
|
| ADP
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_dihydrogen_phosphate
|
| and MKP
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopotassium_phosphate
|
| and Alum
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_alum
|
| but probably table salt is cheaper..
| mellavora wrote:
| Careful using Xerox scans to create your posts...
| isoprophlex wrote:
| Those monopotassium phosphate crystals look gorgeous! Any tips
| for places to buy that salt?
| ttoinou wrote:
| 6 years ago on eBay 2 kg for 30 USD from UK to continental
| Europe. 2 months ago on Amazon 5 Kg for 43 USD delivered in
| Europe. It's a fertilizer so it's not supposed to be
| expensive
| k__ wrote:
| At school we had a sodium crystal that was around 15cm in
| diameter.
|
| A teacher said, they found it in the woods.
| isoprophlex wrote:
| When I was an organic chemist, growing crystals was of paramount
| importance for certain structure determinations using X-ray
| crystallography (to answer "did I really prepare what I think I
| prepared?")
|
| With sensitive compounds, sometimes you can't just let things
| evaporate. Also as the article states, weather conditions might
| mess you up. IMO the coolest trick we had to solve this was
| osmosis of an anti-solvent into a saturated solution.
|
| A small sealed container with a saturated solution of your
| compound/salt is punctured, and put in a bigger sealed container
| containing a worse but miscible solvent for the compound under
| study. Slow diffusion into the inner container causes very
| reproducible crystal growth, as long as you can control the
| temperature.
| gwerbret wrote:
| > growing crystals was of paramount importance for certain
| structure determinations using X-ray crystallography (to answer
| "did I really prepare what I think I prepared?")
|
| Ahh, X-ray crystallography, a.k.a. the field of modern
| (bio)chemistry that most closely resembles medieval alchemy.
|
| The excellent 2009 documentary "Naturally Obsessed" [0] is
| about how difficult, time-consuming, and frankly irrational it
| can be to successfully crystallize certain proteins and protein
| complexes. The film is about how some PhD students spend the
| entire five-ish years of their degree programs trying (and
| mostly failing) to find the secret recipes (protein
| purity/additive ingredients/temperature/humidity/phase of the
| moon) that will allow their proteins to crystallize, and thus
| granting them data with which to populate their dissertations.
|
| Why irrational? In one case, the secret ingredient is pickle
| juice.
|
| [0]: https://www.thirteen.org/naturally-obsessed/
| voldacar wrote:
| That's really clever. How long did this process usually take,
| what size crystals were you going for? And were these crystals
| ever visually interesting, or do most organic compounds just
| form colorless little prisms or cubes?
| isoprophlex wrote:
| "Sadly" (not for me back then) a crystal 1 mm on a side is
| more than plenty for structural elucidation. They were only
| ever pretty to me because
|
| A) you sometimes spend weeks working on the materials that go
| into the solution, seeing them feels like a "my god finally"
| kinda thing
|
| B) under a microscope crystals are especially beautiful, even
| small crystals. We had a microscope set up in an inert
| atmosphere for sensitive compounds, see eg.
|
| https://www.jacomex.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2019/08/microscop...
|
| About timing: this could take anywhere from days to months...
| really dependent on how fast you can go without making ugly
| intergrown xtals, on how well you select solvents, etc.
| Experimental science can be cruel.
| andrewla wrote:
| Neat -- turns out that for sodium chloride there is extensive
| literature on this. Ethanol is apparently effective as an anti-
| solvent, but various dimethylisopropylamine compounds appear to
| be more effective and are used in industrial settings.
|
| Interested now to try this experiment but with ethanol to
| better control the crystal formation.
| isoprophlex wrote:
| Wonderful! I was tempted to do some searching on ethanol,
| acetone, any volatile things that are generally available...
| good to know ethanol is effective.
|
| Will be a fun xmas experiment to do!
| dekhn wrote:
| Crystallography, the study of crystals and the structures of
| their constituents, is fascinating. I work in a field where
| making crystals like this is so tough that people spend millions
| of dollars on robots and reagents that just sit around trying
| every possible combination of temperature, concentration, and
| other parameters, just to make crystals with high enough quality
| to do structure determination.
|
| Some crystals just never form. I know folks who spent 7 years
| trying to get their protein to crystallize and left grad school
| with a masters degree instead of a PhD because they failed, no
| fault of their own.
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| I used to enjoy growing crystals when I was a kid. It's a good
| indoor activity for the winter.
|
| Plain white sugar is also interesting. Alum (used to make
| pickles, can often be found in the herb and spice aisle at the
| store) makes neat crystals.
|
| If your kids are old enough to be trusted not to eat the
| experiments, copper sulfate (used to kill roots that are growing
| into sewer lines) makes beautiful crystals. It can be found at
| Home Depot-type stores.
|
| Edit: I see this author has a link to another article on growing
| copper sulfate crystals down at the bottom of this article.
| Recommended!
| jrumbut wrote:
| I was trying very hard to remember what the other two "classic
| fun-for-kids crystal growing" chemicals were and it was eating
| me alive.
|
| Thank you for the answer, I still remember my alum crystals for
| the grade school science fair.
| Jiro wrote:
| I tried Epsom salts as a kid, since there was some around the
| house. They were a lot easier to grow than table salt.
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| Epsom salts! Yes! Another good one.
| mountain_peak wrote:
| Alum crystals in a disposable pie pan on a hot water radiator
| turned out brilliantly in my youth.
|
| Fast-forward many years, and my daughter wasn't having much
| luck with salt, sugar, or even copper sulfate (that one
| looked like a melted smurf).
|
| I remembered my alum crystals, which she tried, and lo and
| behold...nothing! Desperate (on the night before the
| assignment was due), I remembered someone mentioning that you
| can make crystals with mothball flakes. We picked a bag of
| flakes up and heated them up in a dish, and were able to make
| long, beautiful crystals on the bottom of a cold glass over
| the heated solution.
|
| The only problem was that as soon as we moved the glass away
| from the solution, the crystals evaporated, so she took a
| picture of the crystals as they were forming and received
| full marks. A happy ending, but the house smelled of
| mothballs for a few days!
| outworlder wrote:
| > If your kids are old enough to be trusted not to eat the
| experiments, copper sulfate (used to kill roots that are
| growing into sewer lines) makes beautiful crystals. It can be
| found at Home Depot-type stores.
|
| I had a chemistry set as a kid, it had copper sulfate. The only
| crystals I've managed to grow :)
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