[HN Gopher] 1632 by Eric Flint (2000)
___________________________________________________________________
1632 by Eric Flint (2000)
Author : mikewarot
Score : 60 points
Date : 2021-11-16 09:48 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.baen.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.baen.com)
| rmah wrote:
| This book is definitely an example where judging a book by its
| cover leads to very wrong conclusions. The cover looks silly and
| implies amateurly written dreck. But it's actually very well
| written. Interesting premise and gripping plot with compelling
| characters. Even a few surprises. It's a great book and one of
| the best of the genre, IMO. I _highly_ recommend reading it.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| If I had never heard the phrase "Thirty years war" before
| reading the blurb, will I be able to appreciate it?
| lnanek2 wrote:
| It was an enjoyable read for me back as a kid even though I
| knew little history. It's pretty strong on the wish
| fulfillment end of things. E.g. big bad ass Americans go back
| in time and are better than everyone else. That sort of thing
| can still be fun, though, if you need to relax.
| mikewarot wrote:
| I didn't even remember where the 30 years war was, and here I
| am recommending the series. The history is provided, you're
| not expected to know it.
| JPKab wrote:
| Looking forward to reading it.
|
| My family on both sides come from West Virginia, and
| interestingly, all of Appalachia was settled by people fleeing
| the various religious wars in Europe in that time.
| Specifically, Appalachia was settled mostly by refugees from
| Ulster (primarily the Scots-Irish Presbyterians and other non-
| Anglican protestants who found themselves isolated in northern
| Ireland) and a smaller percentage of the settlers were
| Protestants fleeing the aftermath of the 30 years war in
| Germany. My family's ancestry reflects this.
|
| The echoes of those wars still carry on in the culture there.
| What was then known as Presbyterian (virtually zero relation to
| the current Presbyterian faith, and far more in line with
| evangelical Christians today) at the time shaped the culture to
| be hugely antagonistic to all forms of central authority. The
| Scots-Irish were particularly antagonistic to the British
| monarchy due to them being used to secure northern Ireland, and
| then in decades following being isolated from society due to
| laws treating non-Anglicans as second class citizens. The part
| of history I want to learn far more about is the 30 years war
| in Germany. My lack of knowledge on this subject was
| particularly embarrassing when I last went to Prague and was
| looking at the former seat of power for the Holy Roman Empire
| (one of many, since the capital shifted over the years to
| various cities). I had very little historical context for that
| part of Europe, which was frustrating.
| cafard wrote:
| I think it is incorrect to describe the Scots-Irish as
| refugees. They mostly had some capital, didn't they? Also, I
| think that _Albion ' Seed_ suggested that the Scots-Irish
| emigration was much outnumbered by the entirely Scots
| emigration.
| JPKab wrote:
| Appalachia was particularly favored amongst the Scots-
| Irish. Good point on the term "refugee". For the most part,
| they were certainly very poor, but I've never read Albion'
| Seed before. I have read a book that is considered an
| update on it, called Eleven Nations by Colin Woodward.
|
| I am curious as to what percentage were out of Ulster vs.
| from the borderlands.
| aardvark179 wrote:
| Not passing any judgment on the books themselves, but that web
| page makes me want to run a mile.
|
| "At that moment Freedom and Justice, American style, are
| introduced to the middle of The Thirty Years War." It all feels a
| little too like A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court but
| not written as a burlesque.
| corpdronejuly wrote:
| For most fans of the series this is a feature, not a bug.
|
| There is a lot of desperate demand for the simple
| acknowledgment that America got a lot of things right, and had
| a deep commitment to doing better.
|
| The books have some lengthy subplots exploring our nations
| sins, and dark parts. But the general framing is, "good people
| with good intent doing their best who fall short, get up and do
| their best again. And that is AWESOME!"
| karlmdavis wrote:
| I think "deep commitment" is rather debatable. We've moved in
| the right direction, generally, but only slowly and with far
| too much foot dragging. Remember, gay marriage was only
| legalized six years ago. Six!
|
| And that's just one example out of many.
| ThrowawayR2 wrote:
| If the theme bothers you, I'd instead try Flint's previous
| _Belisarius_ series, which similarly has introduction of
| anachronistic tech as one of its themes in the context the
| Eastern Roman Empire in the era of Justinian the Great. It 's
| not deep but it is fun and frankly, I thought it was much
| better written than the _1632_ series, which IMO was rather
| unmemorable.
| throwanem wrote:
| As with durian, natto, and many others in Baen's stable, Eric
| Flint is very much an acquired taste.
| mherdeg wrote:
| I wonder how much overlap there is in fan base between Flint
| and his occasional collaborator David Weber?
|
| I've read all the Honor Harrington books/stories and
| basically nothing else by either of them. Every now and then
| I read the phpbb forums (forums.davidweber.net) because it's
| interesting to see conversations by people who have a pretty
| different worldview than me. Seems like pretty nice folks.
| fmajid wrote:
| I have no issues with Eric Flint or David Weber (although I
| find Flint's infatuation with Gustavus Adolphus quite
| bizarre).
|
| The one author whose book I just set down because it made
| want to puke was one by John Ringo (it was an ARC, don't
| worry, no money of mine went into his pocket).
| spiralx wrote:
| I read this review of one of John Ringo's series some
| years back and have never been tempted to read anything
| by him - the review is hilarious, the books sound
| absolutely fucking awful.
|
| https://hradzka.livejournal.com/194753.html
|
| This review even coined the meme "OH JOHN RINGO NO" lol.
| LegitShady wrote:
| I don't have asuch time to read as I used to but I used
| to read a lot (like 3-4 novels a week) and John Ringo's
| books stand out to me as the type that are so bad they're
| funny if that makes sense. Its not that he can't write
| because he can, it's that he crossed the line of "well
| that's in bad taste" over into "you're doing this on
| purpose right?".
|
| I can't say "good times" but i read a bunch of Ringo's
| books just because I couldn't believe how an original so
| bad could get multiple sequals.
| throwanem wrote:
| As a historiographer, Flint makes a solid writer. As a
| writer, Weber makes a solid historiographer.
| BryantD wrote:
| To some degree, that's more reflective of Baen's marketing than
| it is of the book. Or, more accurately: Eric Flint's concept of
| American freedom and justice is not the same as John Ringo or
| Thomas Kratman's concept of the same. At least at the time of
| publication, he was a serious union supporter and at one point
| was a member of the Socialist Workers Party. 1632 is not at all
| a socialist novel, but the concept of workers rights is
| important for at least the first few books (which is as far as
| I read).
|
| I found them moderately enjoyable pulp adventure myself.
| piaste wrote:
| Having read many of the books and short stories as a boy, I
| would rank them as 'entertainingly trashy'.
|
| The Americans are a collection of unintentionally hilarious
| stereotypes - the rugged hero who saves the beautiful &
| brilliant damsel in distress and gets everybody swooning over
| him, the virgin nerd who suddenly gets appreciated by a strong
| girl, the badass teenager girl who shows all those prejudiced
| old fools how much ass a badass teenager girl can kick, oh
| yeah!
|
| The 'native' characters are a bit better, because the author is
| constrained by historical records to make them slightly less
| cartoonish. Gustav Adolf (& related family) is the designated
| Good King but he's still an absolute king and occasionally a
| jerk as a result; Axel Oxenstierna and Richelieu get
| caricatured as villainous viziers but their reasons for
| opposing the New American Order do get at least a perfunctory
| acknowledgment. Non-historical 'native' characters are as two-
| dimensional as the Americans, though.
|
| The reason I do not regret reading the series is that it
| scratches certain nerdy itches very very well. It's full of
| wikipedia-type fun facts that gets turned into plot points,
| like clothing dyes being a big deal, or customary laws of Early
| Modern Germany being an absolute clusterfuck, and of course all
| kinds of changing social mores from privacy in the presence of
| house servants to serving wine to children. It has funny nerd
| moments like Lennard Torstensson gawking over a micrometer, or
| when Richelieu is revealed to be the first leader smart enough
| to acquire a spoiler (a history book from the 'future') and
| take action over it, in that case refocusing away from costly
| European wars in order to consolidate control of the New World
| and set up France to become the dominant world empire in the
| timeline.
|
| I think the short stories are probably the best part of the
| setting for an adult reader, because they have less focus on
| the sub-par characters and more focus on the fascinating
| peculiarities of the time and place. And while the History of
| kingdoms and religions got derailed pretty early in the series,
| making historical accuracy kind of a moot point, the little
| histories of craftsmen and traders get a chance to shine and be
| properly explored in the short stories.
| eru wrote:
| I grew up in and around Magdeburg, a city that plays a large role
| in the book(s). It's interesting that they've never been
| translated into German.
| strenholme wrote:
| This book is available in a bunch of e-book formats as a free
| download: https://www.baen.com/1632.html There's also an updated
| version of the book one can buy on the same website.
|
| Baen is a good source of science fiction and fantasy which, as
| often as not, has a conservative military slant to it. May not be
| everyone's taste, but I also greatly enjoy reading Orson Scott
| Card who has a conservative (but _not_ fundamentalist) religious
| slant to his stories.
| Adam_36 wrote:
| Thanks for the update. I'll be sure to keep an eye on this
| thread. https://www.advancedmd.ltd/
| alex_stoddard wrote:
| Another very entertaining series, with a much more SF bent, by
| Eric Flint, with Ryk E. Spoor is kicked of by the freely
| available 'Boundary'.
|
| https://www.baen.com/boundary.html
|
| (Like 1632 it also has a dreadful cover - actively despised by
| Ryk I believe).
| bayesian_horse wrote:
| Authors in the 1632 series have a very optimistic view of
| capitalism. Also very little understanding of the German
| language, which is explained away by the creation of
| "Amideutsch". In the real world, "Amideutsch" wasn't nearly as
| bad and while Germans readily take up English words, they aren't
| that malleable when it comes to grammatical mistakes/changes.
| Especially adults probably wouldn't form that kind of creole and
| there aren't enough American children to make that much of a
| difference...
|
| The series helped me think more deeply about the history of
| Europe, also other parts of the World. There are now stories
| about China, India, the Americas, probably other places I am
| forgetting right now.
| eru wrote:
| > Authors in the 1632 series have a very optimistic view of
| capitalism.
|
| Really? The series leans heavily pro-union, for example.
| bayesian_horse wrote:
| Does it, really? At least one uptime Union and its members
| play a big role, but I don't remember much about unionization
| efforts and major strikes. Nothing close to what happened in
| the industrialization age in Europe. Partly that is because
| some of the political gains from those efforts have already
| been leapfrogged downtime.
|
| My point is more around the entrepreneurship and how easy it
| is for the Americans (and sometimes downtimers) to make a
| fortune. Also how easy it is to retool whole industries and
| economies in a short time-frame. But hey, it's fiction...
| spiralx wrote:
| Eric Flint specifically talks about his long-term support
| for unions in one of the prefaces (I think) of the early
| books in the series, quite likely 1632 itself. He's worked
| in a union as a longshoreman, truck driver, auto worker,
| steelworker, meatpacker, glassblower and a machinist and
| was a labour union organiser.
| ghaff wrote:
| >retool whole industries and economies in a short time-
| frame
|
| It's a general pattern with this type of book. They're
| probably way too optimistic about what you could accomplish
| in the absence of refined raw materials, tools, etc. even
| if you had a lot of the basic knowledge in some form. Even
| if you weren't thrown in prison as a wizard or crazy
| person, making even WWI-level weaponry or antibiotics in a
| world without even the concept of standardized
| manufacturing processes would be challenging to put it
| mildly.
| rmah wrote:
| IMO this book does a rather good job of that. And the
| problems you describe is an ongoing theme throughout the
| series.
|
| For example, they learn that they _cannot_ even make WW1
| level weapons (they settle on a sort of hybrid civil-war
| era rifles + flintlocks for mass production because of
| problems making percussion caps, IIRC). And they learn
| quickly that they can 't make antibiotics at more than
| small lot lab amounts. A lot of their retooling is
| cannibalizing parts from existing equipment for different
| uses.
| ghaff wrote:
| It's been a long time since I read that particular book.
| It was more of a general comment about how it often seems
| in these sorts of books that one smart person with some
| instructions can basically advance technology by hundreds
| of years in a month or so.
| rmah wrote:
| Understood. But that doesn't happen in 1632.
| LanceH wrote:
| Not saying they got all tech decisions right, but they
| did handle it by falling back many steps, using current
| knowledge to build crude antique tech. They had more
| concern with bootstrapping than jumping straight to
| launching satellites. They were also concerned with the
| scarcity and value of rather mundane things in our lives
| today, like rubber tires, plastic bottles, etc...
|
| Some low hanging advances like clean sheets and washing
| your hand among doctors.
| lstodd wrote:
| > Does it, really?
|
| It does, with G. Ritchter and CoCs.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| The original book came out in 2000. Pre-9/11, pre-Enron, pre-
| financial crisis, most _everyone_ had an optimistic view of
| capitalism. If this series had been started a few years later
| than it was, it would feel very different.
| irishsultan wrote:
| > In the real world, "Amideutsch" wasn't nearly as bad
|
| In the real world Germans already were on a technological
| comparable level to the Americans. Not to mention that by the
| 1940s the German language had already been much more
| standardized than it would have been in 1632, one big reason
| mentioned in the books that boosted "Amideutsch" was the fact
| that there was no "German" language that all German immigrants
| to Grantville/Magdeburg could fall back to.
| bayesian_horse wrote:
| I can easily read and understand most texts from that period.
| It does feel and sound "old". The grammar is pretty much
| identical.
|
| It's sometimes difficult to distinguish between a grammatical
| error and a grammatical "difference to the standard", for
| example in a dialect or even Creole language. But if it hurts
| a native speaker, it may very well be a mistake.
| irishsultan wrote:
| I don't entirely disagree on whether the German in the
| books is bad, I definitely notice issues when they have
| someone speaking in Dutch. It's just that I don't see how
| you could compare amideutsch (1632) with amideutsch (real
| world).
| spiralx wrote:
| I've been reading these for a while now and they're a genuinely
| great exploration of 17th century European cultural, religious,
| political and scientific ideas as well as a fascinating take on
| how the 20th century would fare in that situation. How would the
| 1911 Encyclopedia Brittanica affect the lives of those people
| featured in it? How would the Catholic Church deal with the
| changes in Vatican II? What effects would radio and antibiotics
| have on society? How would the Bach family react to discovering
| the complete works of a man who wouldn't have been born for
| another half century?
|
| The Grantville Gazette publishes short stories set in the world
| by other authors, there's in fact a master character list where
| authors can "check out" characters to ensure consistency. It also
| has technical articles on subjects such as building aircraft
| using 17th century techniques, how to build radios that are
| effective during the Maunder Minimum or how to synthesise
| different primers in order to manufacture cartridge ammunition.
| panzagl wrote:
| Is there a 'main thread' through the books? I read the first
| book, but then, like the Honor Harrington series, it seems to
| split into more offshoots than I care to tackle.
| ucm_edge wrote:
| 1633, 1633, 1634: Baltic War, 1635: The Eastern Front, 1636:
| The Saxon Uprising, 1636: The Ottoman Onslaught, 1637: Polish
| Maelstrom
|
| Although honestly I lost interest around the first 1636 book.
| For me the initial setup of the United States of Europe was
| interesting but I feel like as the books progressed they got
| fairly fast and loose with history and historical characters
| become one dimensional. The first three books were really
| good as historical fiction that is clearly trying to be
| entertaining while trying keep some connection to reality,
| fourth one was decent, and by the time Flint got to 1636 it
| was too far out of left field for me and I preferred to going
| back to just reading nonfiction history books.
| panzagl wrote:
| Thanks, I'll see how far I get. Would be nice if I could
| make it until the winged hussars arrive...
| derefr wrote:
| Don't know about this series in particular, but the
| Harrington series _does_ have a "main thread", and is
| intentionally written+ to not interdepend; the mainline
| sequence of books by Drake make some references to things
| happening in the other series, but the books don't
| expect/require you to have read those series (i.e. the books
| reintroduce any characters and events that happened in those
| series that are relevant to the current plot.)
|
| + I find the logic of this series-splitting very interesting;
| David Drake seems to license out his setting for the creation
| of, essentially, fanfiction, but fanfiction where he sits in
| as creative consultant. So other authors create stories in
| his setting, and he declares them canon.
|
| But, since those stories are not _his_ stories -- not created
| as part of his original series planning -- the later novels
| in the mainline series aren 't planned to take these side-
| sequences into account, but rather just have references to
| those side-sequences worked in in non-arc-damaging ways as
| the series allows. Almost like the characters and events from
| the ascended fanfic are "guest starring" in the main series,
| as a reward to the audience for reading those side-series and
| a semi "seal of quality" nod by Drake toward those series.
|
| This isn't a practice I've ever seen anywhere else. The
| closest might be simultaneously-running TV dramas with
| different writing teams who lend one-another characters (and
| their actors) for crossovers, with each writing team acting
| as the creative consultant for how that character is written
| by the other team. But even then, there isn't a
| _hierarchical_ relationship between the two teams, as both
| teams own their own setting. Also, this setup usually implies
| that the dramas to be owned by the same production studio.
|
| What Drake does with his settings, is more like when
| franchise with a valuable IP licenses that IP out for the
| creation of "licensed" works in adjacent media, on the
| condition that they sit in as creative consultant for how
| their IP is being used. E.g. when some random game studio
| decides to make "a Spiderman game." Except in this case, the
| IP isn't all that valuable, just an inspiring setting for
| other authors; and the licensed works aren't in an adjacent
| medium, but rather also in the original medium, such that
| they almost "blend in" with the original works.
|
| It's be as if Star Wars were primarily a novel series, but
| then the various Star Wars Extended Universe licensed novels
| were still a thing.
| chokolad wrote:
| I think you got your Davids confused. Honor Harrington
| series are written by a David Weber.
| panzagl wrote:
| Oddly enough, I'd love it if David Drake spun out
| 'Hammers Slammers' the way Weber did Harrington...
| hoseja wrote:
| I'm still sad Rome Sweet Rome fizzled out.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| _Pax Romana_ finished but also didn't amount to much. Great
| setup and art though:
|
| https://imagecomics.com/comics/series/pax-romana-1
| tomcam wrote:
| I still reread it occasionally. Electrifying. For those who
| missed it:
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/k067x/could_i_de...
| JasonFruit wrote:
| History, time travel, and rednecks doing liberty shit? Sign me
| up!
| zeckalpha wrote:
| If you like this you may like The Watch, by Dennis Danvers. Peter
| Kropotkin ends up in Virginia in 1999...
|
| https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/dennis-danvers/th...
| Aaargh20318 wrote:
| Another series in the same vein is the Safehold series by David
| Weber:
| https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/72199.Off_Armageddon_Ree...
| ThrowawayR2 wrote:
| _Safehold_ was decent but kind of drags towards the end. "
| _Oh, no, if us bad guys lose these huge armies, our treasury
| will be dry and we 'll collapse!_", then at the start of the
| next volume, " _We lost those armies, which we already couldn
| 't afford, but we somehow managed to scrape up an even huger
| army than last time that are even better armed and this time,
| if we lose them too, no honest, our treasury will be dry and
| we'll collapse, totally for real this time!_"; lather, rinse,
| repeat.
| Aaargh20318 wrote:
| That seems to be a problem with a lot of these series. They
| usually start out good but they drag on and on. The story
| gets stretched out over too many books and it never gets to
| a satisfying end. It kills the pacing and makes me burn out
| on a series.
|
| Nowadays I won't even start a series if I see it has that
| many books without showing any signs of coming to an end.
| At some point I want to have some closure.
|
| Ideally a series has 5 books _max_ , 3 or 4 would be ideal.
| mikewarot wrote:
| I think a lot of people here have already read, or would be
| interested in this book/series.
|
| There seemed to be a lot of questions about what would happen if
| the supply chain broke today... this series explores that issue
| in a deep way.
| throwaway10122 wrote:
| It also got me interested in the 30 years war which i didnt
| realise was possibly even bloodier period than WW1 and 2 in
| europe for the populations impacted. He has another series in
| same premise with a modern cruise ship going back to ancient
| greek times, not as good as this series tho'.
|
| if anyone else has any other recommendations in same genre of
| time travel and re-booting up civilisation it be great to hear!
| I always found the genre interesting since Jules Verne's
| Mysterious Island
| https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/32831.The_Mysterious_Isl...
| dj_gitmo wrote:
| I had no idea about this. Did Jules Verne really have to be
| the originator or every science fiction sub-genre? What a
| jerk.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| He was a contemporary of Edison's. Perhaps both were future
| men, out of time...
| sanxiyn wrote:
| > if anyone else has any other recommendations in same genre
| of time travel and re-booting up civilisation it be great to
| hear!
|
| The island of Nantucket goes back to the Bronze Age.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_in_the_Sea_of_Time
| ghaff wrote:
| Yes, Stirling's Nantucket series is a good example. Loosely
| also his Emberverse (basically the flip side of the
| Nantucket series) although I lost interest as I often do
| with long-running series. Lucifer's Hammer by Niven and
| Pournelle. A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court is
| probably the classic of the genre (Mark Twain).
|
| Most of these books are probably overly optimistic about
| what one or a small group of smart people who just happen
| to have to right skill sets could accomplish in such a
| situation with very limited supply chains.
| coremoff wrote:
| > if anyone else has any other recommendations in same genre
| of time travel and re-booting up civilisation
|
| There's a couple that I know of:
|
| https://www.goodreads.com/series/40821-belisarius
| https://www.goodreads.com/search?q=safehold&qid=
|
| Flint was involved in the Belisarius series (along with David
| Drake), and Safehold is basically Weber's "reboot" of one of
| the books in his "Armageddon Moon" series.
|
| If you liked 1632 you will probably like these as they're in
| a similar vein
| bhaak wrote:
| The short story "The Man Who Came Early" by Poul Anderson
| touches on that theme as well. A soldier is transported back
| to Iceland of about the year 900 AD.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Came_Early
|
| Another classic one is "Lest Darkness Fall" by L. Sprague de
| Camp in which an archaeologist is transported to Rome in the
| year 535 AD.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lest_Darkness_Fall
| jwhitlark wrote:
| David Drake wrote a sort of prequel to "Lest Darkness Fall"
| called "To Bring the Light", with an imperial Roman woman
| transported back to the founding of Rome. Drake's personal
| experiences increase the realism of his writing, IMO.
|
| He also wrote "Ranks of Bronze" which is sort of the
| reverse idea, a Roman Legion kidnapped by aliens for
| preindustrial warfare. Absolutely worth a read, and an
| interesting counterpoint to most of the 'bringing
| civilization to the barbarians' narrative these stories
| normally follow.
|
| H. Beam Piper did a bunch too, check out "Lord Kalvan of
| Otherwhen" if you can find it.
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