[HN Gopher] English coffeehouses, French salons and the age of t...
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English coffeehouses, French salons and the age of the
enlightenment (2008) [pdf]
Author : simonebrunozzi
Score : 19 points
Date : 2021-11-15 17:25 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.mrjohnmiddleton.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.mrjohnmiddleton.org)
| sleepysysadmin wrote:
| So much focus is spent on 'enlightenment' and politics. The same
| time, people invented clean water. People up until this time
| didnt have clean water and thusly would drink beer/wine all the
| time. People were suddenly sober.
|
| It wasn't perfect(cholera) but add in coffee, sober + now a
| stimulant. Productivity took off and we started discovering as
| well... many social constructs dont work. The societies and
| communities that break with those social constructs will benefit
| from the greater productivity. Thus egalitarianism is born. This
| has been great for society.
|
| However, just as with anything, change 1 slider, affect multiple
| others. We are starting to discover problems with egalitarianism
| and nobody predicted these problems. Worse yet, these problems
| are severe enough and we lack any solution. The fix isnt to go
| back to the 1950s or earlier. So what do we do? Our current plan
| of do nothing also doesnt seem to work.
|
| So what in the world do we do? Did people figure out these
| problems long ago and egalitarianism is a trap? road to hell
| paved with good intentions?
| beebmam wrote:
| I'm not sure how you mean "egalitarianism is a trap". Where
| does this egalitarianism exist? Wealth gaps are massive and
| continue to grow basically everywhere in the world. There's now
| a large class of people who own nothing and likely always will.
|
| Or do you mean you oppose specifically legal egalitarianism?
| That all people should not be equal under the law; some more
| equal than others?
| sleepysysadmin wrote:
| >I'm not sure how you mean "egalitarianism is a trap".
|
| Complicated subject to be sure. I am a through and through
| egalitarian. That is not to say we should have true equality.
| True equality is not possible.
|
| > Where does this egalitarianism exist?
|
| Legal, social, etc. Most people would agree places like
| Canada or Iceland or Norway are egalitarian. I suspect you're
| arguing from the Marxist classless society point of view.
| I'll let you define that if you are doing so.
|
| >Wealth gaps are massive and continue to grow basically
| everywhere in the world.
|
| Because of egalitarianism believe it or not. Lets look at an
| example. We had X amount of jobs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wi
| ki/Labor_force_in_the_United_Stat...
|
| When women entered the workplace, those werent new jobs.
| Total % relatively unchanged. That means women displaced men.
| I think this has been great. More talented women replaced
| less talented men.
|
| However, what did that do? It meant for the same number of
| jobs, there was far more competition. Supply demand. More
| supply of workers, and same demand. That means the workers
| lose. Thus fueling inequality.
|
| >There's now a large class of people who own nothing and
| likely always will.
|
| https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/05/World-Poverty-
| Sin...
|
| Not at all. We used to have 90% poverty 200 years ago. Today
| we're down to 10%. That's for 1 reason and only 1 reason.
| Capitalism. The trend is obvious as well. Way down. In fact
| we might expect to see capitalism spread through africa and a
| few other parts of the world eliminating poverty. No longer
| will there be people who own nothing unless they do so
| intentionally.
|
| >Or do you mean you oppose specifically legal egalitarianism?
| That all people should not be equal under the law; some more
| equal than others?
|
| Oh no, I dont oppose eqalitarianism in any way.
| dragontamer wrote:
| > The same time, people invented clean water. People up until
| this time didnt have clean water and thusly would drink
| beer/wine all the time. People were suddenly sober.
|
| This seems to be a myth.
|
| Romans of course had clean water through fountains and
| aquifers. Some of that tech was lost through the dark ages, but
| surely by the middle ages it was rediscovered?
|
| Fountains of clean water are a staple throughout European
| towns. After all, water is the lifeblood of humans. And if not
| a fountain, then at least a village well.
| zehaeva wrote:
| I take it that you are not aware of Dr. John Snow[1] who in
| the 1850s demonstrated that Cholera was a water born illness
| that came from drinking contaminated water.
|
| Or of the "Great Stink"[2] in 1858 that was caused by so much
| sewage in the Thames, the main source of water for London,
| that it forced Parliament to actually do something about it.
|
| By and large, yes there were fountains and village wells. But
| that water was usually contaminated because Europe at that
| time didn't have great sewage systems. People pissed a shat
| where ever they happened to be and that usually were near the
| very water sources they drank from.
|
| [1] https://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/snow/snowcricketarticle.html
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Stink
| dragontamer wrote:
| > I take it that you are not aware of Dr. John Snow[1] who
| in the 1850s demonstrated that Cholera was a water born
| illness that came from drinking contaminated water.
|
| I'm aware of Cholera yes, but I'm not sure what it has to
| do with my point.
|
| If anything, the widespread proliferation of Cholera proves
| that people in the 1800s mostly drank water rather than
| beer, does it not?
|
| Furthermore, without any theory of microorganisms, people
| in the 1800s were simply too ignorant (even the doctors) to
| understand why people were getting sick. Classical "Miasma"
| theory only works on airborne diseases (the "air is
| infected". "Don't breath the air", mask up, etc. etc. Its
| hilariously wrong but "good enough" to prevent airborne
| diseases).
|
| -----
|
| EDIT: Or to be more clear: with a modern understanding of
| microorganisms, we're able to say today that "Alcohol kills
| bacteria / viruses" and can make the strange, but possibly
| true, argument that beer could be healthier than water in
| some circumstances.
|
| But go as far back as the 1800s (let alone the 1500s,
| 1000s, or 500s), and people didn't even know what a
| bacteria or virus is. Suddenly, its near impossible to make
| an argument to drink beer rather than water (well, aside
| from entertainment purposes).
| kergonath wrote:
| > I take it that you are not aware of Dr. John Snow[1] who
| in the 1850s demonstrated that Cholera was a water born
| illness that came from drinking contaminated water.
|
| The fact that they did not understand germ theory does not
| mean that people in general did not have access to clean
| (enough) water, this is a non sequitur. Your point is not
| refuting the parent. There were in fact places without
| cholera epidemics, though cities were pretty dire overall.
| [deleted]
| sleepysysadmin wrote:
| >Romans of course had clean water through fountains and
| aquifers. Some of that tech was lost through the dark ages,
| but surely by the middle ages it was rediscovered?
|
| Are you arguing my word usage is incorrect? Yes there was
| some previous attempts but check out this link
| https://www.freedrinkingwater.com/resource-history-of-
| clean-...
|
| >Fountains of clean water are a staple throughout European
| towns. After all, water is the lifeblood of humans. And if
| not a fountain, then at least a village well.
|
| Access to water is a thing to be sure but clean water was
| something else.
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(page generated 2021-11-15 23:02 UTC)