[HN Gopher] Why salt was so important throughout history (2018)
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Why salt was so important throughout history (2018)
        
       Author : kaycebasques
       Score  : 86 points
       Date   : 2021-11-15 16:51 UTC (6 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (bookworm.club)
 (TXT) w3m dump (bookworm.club)
        
       | bullen wrote:
       | Most people misunderstand the accounting part of why salt was
       | important, everyone knows what salt looks like and how much it's
       | worth. It's a value comparator = it's used to compare other
       | products (for example if a sheep is worth say 750 grams and a cow
       | is worth 850g then you can exchange sheep and cows with some salt
       | to cover the difference) this is the most valuable characteristic
       | of money, something universal to build trade from. Seashells also
       | work well in some places, not as a store of value but as trade
       | enablers. I'm guessing no exchange was ever made in the history
       | of man without this kind of value comparative, long before the
       | term money was even discovered.
        
         | elliekelly wrote:
         | Interesting. Along the same lines I would imagine it was one of
         | the easiest "currencies" to confirm the authenticity of... a
         | quick lick and you'll know whether or not you're being ripped
         | off with a counterfeit.
        
           | obiwan14 wrote:
           | One, then, has to wonder what the consensus algorithm was to
           | determine the truthfulness of the taste (lick) test. Did they
           | manage to put it on a blockchain?
        
         | Hermitian909 wrote:
         | > I'm guessing no exchange was ever made in the history of man
         | without this kind of value comparative, long before the term
         | money was even discovered.
         | 
         | I used to think this as well but it's apparently not true! In
         | hunter gatherer tribes (and probably early agricultural groups)
         | it sufficed for two parties to agree that one was getting the
         | better deal and agree there was a debt. Then in a later
         | transaction the debt would likely go the other direction, as
         | the party in debt for the first transaction overpaid. This
         | cycle seems to have repeated indefinitely if everyone stayed on
         | reasonably good terms. Importantly, the stability of
         | communities was the bedrock of these types interactions. Once
         | communities got extremely large (1000s) or travelers became
         | common place, the kind of comparative you're discussing seems
         | to have become more important.
         | 
         | I'd recommend reading "Debt, the First 5000 Years" to learn
         | more
        
       | kaycebasques wrote:
       | The economies of scale in salt (and hot sauce baffle me). Let me
       | use the hot sauce example, because it's a little more fun, but
       | all the ideas apply equally to salt. How is it that I can buy a
       | big jar of Crystal's hot sauce for like $2? Someone had to plant
       | those peppers, produce vinegar, bottle it, transport it to San
       | Francisco, let the grocery store mark it up, and it still only
       | costs $2???
        
         | gbronner wrote:
         | I saw a video that suggested that the sriracha guys have an
         | area roughly 1/3rd the size of manhattan under cultivation.
         | 
         | Nobody cares what those peppers look like, and the tilling,
         | planting, and harvesting, washing, and crushing are all pretty
         | automated. Vinegar and salt are also pretty cheap, as is
         | bottling equipment.
        
         | jonshariat wrote:
         | Ditto. It also blows my mind how stores operate. I think how
         | can they offer so much verity and stay in business? They paid
         | for all this food and its all going bad or out of season, how?
        
         | selimthegrim wrote:
         | I don't know specifically about Crystal, but when I went to
         | Avery Island a couple hours away I saw Tabasco/McIlhenny had
         | whole warehouses of drying and pickling peppers - I imagine
         | they can control supply as needed and keep the wholesale price
         | where they want.
        
         | BitwiseFool wrote:
         | We also live in an era of cheap energy. 'Astonishingly cheap'
         | doesn't even begin to describe how much more we have to work
         | with than our ancestors did. It enables modern economies of
         | scale and things like buying imported prosciutto from Italy
         | rather than just buying some preserved ham from the local
         | farmers market.
        
         | sumtechguy wrote:
         | Think about it this way. It is about margin (where the profit
         | comes from). Keep that marginal cost equal to your marginal rev
         | and you are doing good. Stray too far and you are leaving money
         | on the table or maybe taking a loss. Control a couple of key
         | aspects of production and your marginal cost can be low. In
         | this case I would say the jar and lid is probably the most
         | expensive bit and the salsa is probably made by the barrel
         | full. Also most grocery stores do not set the prices or own
         | goods on the shelves. The wholesalers/vendors typically do and
         | the grocers rent out the shelves to them based on location in
         | the store, height off the floor, and length/depth of shelf
         | needed.
        
       | Mikeb85 wrote:
       | Salt is important because its required to live. You'll die far
       | quicker with no salt in your diet than too much.
        
       | abdel_nasser wrote:
       | people fail to recognize that people ate a lot less back in the
       | days that salt was so precious. they also ate a lot more fat.
       | eating less and having more protein and fat meant that they had
       | less insulin in their blood and also more ketones in their blood.
       | insulin tells your body to hold on to things including water and
       | when you dont have a lot of insulin you lose more water and
       | sodium with it. and ketones are a diuretic which promote the loss
       | of water even more.
       | 
       | sodium replaces insulin because it also causes your body to hold
       | on to water. so it was very important because you needed it to
       | offset lower insulin and also because you were losing it much
       | more. if you didnt have access to salt back then you would have
       | become very ill.
       | 
       | a modern person who eats almost nothing but sugar in one form or
       | another and in enormous quantities has so much insulin that they
       | barely need any sodium unless they drink large amounts of water.
       | we even tell people to have less sodium. but earlier people
       | werent that way.
        
       | hammock wrote:
       | Off topic, but I visited the Atlas Obscura-worthy "Wieliczka"
       | Salt Mine which is a short drive from Krakow. Incredible place.
       | 
       | I have been to my share of mines and caves but never to a salt
       | mine. This mine is massive and has entire underground lakes and
       | even a chapel, with a beautiful Last Supper relief and altar and
       | chandeliers all hand-carved from the salt walls - by tradesmen no
       | less, not artists. They actually have mass in the chapel every
       | week.
       | 
       | The massive salt deposits were what enabled the Polish kingdom to
       | even be a thing. It was a huge economic boom.
       | 
       | Highly recommend a visit if you are in the area.
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wieliczka_Salt_Mine
        
         | credit_guy wrote:
         | This summer I visited the remarkable Slanic mine in Romania
         | [1]. No matter how much you prepare, it's still breathtaking
         | when you get there. The chambers I visited were all about 50
         | meters tall. You could have football fields in there, bleachers
         | included. I took pictures, but I just don't know how to share
         | them; still, I found this one [2] that gives a sense of the
         | scale.
         | 
         | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sl%C4%83nic_mine
         | 
         | [2] https://www.romania-insider.com/planetarium-slanic-salt-
         | mine
        
         | debacle wrote:
         | What does the air smell like? Is it like being by the ocean? Is
         | the smell stronger?
        
           | eatmygodetia wrote:
           | It smells incredibly clean. The air is very pure, apparently,
           | and it's meant to be good for your healthm I noticed this -
           | my cold cleared up while I was there (and started again soon
           | after). There's a slight cave smell, but not really. I don't
           | know what it's like to smell like being by tue ocean, but I
           | don't remember it smelling much like british beaches.
        
           | hammock wrote:
           | It smells pretty clean/normal.
           | 
           | You can lick the walls and they taste like salt.
        
       | foolfoolz wrote:
       | i never understood why salt was (is?) so valuable yet is
       | available in seemingly endless quantities in the ocean
        
         | watwut wrote:
         | Because inland areas exists and are large. Transportation was
         | expensive and slow.
        
         | mytailorisrich wrote:
         | In general you need good climate and geography to produce large
         | quantity of salt in salt marshes.
         | 
         | Then, once you have done that, transporting it from coastal
         | areas was also a big undertaking.
        
         | debacle wrote:
         | It's heavy, hard to recycle, and time and labor intensive to
         | create.
        
         | sandworm101 wrote:
         | Removing it from the ocean is far from easy. It requires large
         | amounts of fuel, time and space.
        
         | gruez wrote:
         | same reason why we have water shortages yet it's available in
         | seemingly endless quantities in the ocean.
        
           | jimmyed wrote:
           | Not exactly a fair analogy, since we need a very large amount
           | of water per head compared to salt (unless you are a freman).
        
             | gruez wrote:
             | That explains why there are water shortages in nevada, but
             | even in places that are close to the ocean (ie. logistics
             | is a non-issue) there are water shortages. eg.
             | https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-56798308
        
         | b3kart wrote:
         | My guess: extracting it from the ocean water requires
         | evaporation, which in turn requires a lot of energy/fuel?
        
           | k__ wrote:
           | Doesn't it evaporate on its own over time?
        
             | wikidani wrote:
             | Yes, but I think that maybe in colder regions it's probably
             | not cost effective. Specially in winter. So that would kind
             | of explain why the polish salt mine mentioned earlier was
             | important
        
             | debacle wrote:
             | Digging the pan, hardening it (so it's relatively
             | impermeable to sea water), and then repeatedly evaporating
             | the water until you have a brine rich enough in salt to
             | precipitate, and then massing that salt slush so it can
             | completely dry, and then smashing it into a usable form.
             | 
             | You can look at salt pans on Google Maps. Here is one I
             | have been to:
             | 
             | https://goo.gl/maps/uN968Stn6kPHnH6E7
             | 
             | Obviously today this is done with gigantic machines, and
             | the cost/kg is incredibly low to the point that locals do
             | not pay for salt, but back before the advent of
             | Caterpillar, I imagine harvesting salt this way was very
             | labor intensive.
             | 
             | There is a documentary on Amazon called My Name is Salt
             | about the salt harvest in India. It is quite good.
        
               | einpoklum wrote:
               | Well, if you go back long enough when you could use a
               | larger area for a given output of salt, then - once you
               | prepared your pan once, you could just let the water
               | evaporate completely, and then scratch the salt of the
               | surface. If your pan can be made of rocks than that
               | should probably be even easier.
               | 
               | Other than needing some decent sunlight and not super-
               | high humidity - what am I getting wrong?
        
               | debacle wrote:
               | The massive amount of human labor involved?
        
             | selimthegrim wrote:
             | Depends on the source - the Khewra salt mines in Pakistani
             | Punjab's Salt Range are the source of a lot of "Himalayan"
             | salt in America.
        
             | Filligree wrote:
             | That requires vast quantities of space and a hot/dry
             | climate to be done efficiently.
             | 
             | It certainly was done. Looking back at history, the places
             | that could efficiently do so were major salt exporters;
             | which rendered it uneconomical to do elsewhere.
        
         | orangepurple wrote:
         | UK has insufficient solar radiation and heat accumulation to
         | properly dry saltwater
        
       | jkeddo wrote:
       | And it is even more important today! Imagine unsalted database
       | passwords ;)
        
         | JoBrad wrote:
         | This is why we need so much extra salt in our diets.
        
       | jasonhansel wrote:
       | Salt is particularly important if you're exercising--it's the
       | main electrolyte lost through sweat--and is thus probably
       | especially important in a society heavily dependent on manual
       | labor.
        
       | kaycebasques wrote:
       | Previous discussion:
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17640343
        
       | ElectronShak wrote:
       | Just realised i've never seen an ad for salt...
        
         | hammock wrote:
         | The Morton girl?
        
       | Aardwolf wrote:
       | > But, if you stick a vegetable in salt water, a different class
       | of bacteria breaks it down into stuff that we can eat. The "bad"
       | bacteria that live in the air can't grow in the salt water,
       | whereas the "good" can.
       | 
       | Any clue why the bacteria that can survive the salt happens to be
       | a "good" one? What has stopped "bad" bacteria that can survive
       | the salt too from evolving?
        
         | elhudy wrote:
         | I think the question you are asking is "why can lactic acid
         | bacteria survive in a saline environment whereas some harmful
         | bacteria types cannot?"
         | 
         | I believe the answer is that "bad" bacteria CAN oftentimes
         | survive in environments with high-salinity [1], but struggle to
         | compete with lactic-acid bacteria (i.e. "good" bacteria - LAB)
         | in the presence of both a saline environment as well as a high
         | ph environment. LAB also engage in antimicrobial activities
         | within your gut [2] likely using bacteriocins as the mechanism.
         | 
         | Salt generally inhibits fungal growth though.
         | 
         | [1] https://academic.oup.com/femsle/article/243/2/373/495985
         | 
         | [2]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15374659/
        
       | kaycebasques wrote:
       | Howdy HN, while this is on page #1 I figure I should "strike
       | while the iron is hot" and talk about the book club service that
       | I recently launched on https://bookworm.club [1]. Long story
       | short, instead of a traditional book club, where you get together
       | and vote on what book to read next (or don't have any say in what
       | the next book is) I wanted to build a service that would
       | automagically match you with other people around the world who
       | also happen to be reading the same book as you. I think it has
       | the potential for some very interesting conversation and
       | connection making! The way it works is you just tell us what
       | you're reading (or let us track your _currently reading_ list on
       | Goodreads) and we match you up with anyone else also reading that
       | and help you organize a meeting to discuss the book. Feedback
       | welcome. And sorry if anything on the site breaks... I 'm a
       | technical writer by trade, not an engineer. Although I consider
       | myself fairly technical this is probably one of the biggest
       | technical projects I've created to date. An eye-opening
       | experience! I have a little more information about the book club
       | service at [3].
       | 
       | [1] As you can tell from the history of the site, I originally
       | wrote the salt post in 2018 and then didn't do anything for a few
       | years. I recently quit my job and took a 1-year sabbatical (which
       | will probably end up being only 9 months) [2] and finally
       | invested the time/energy to build the book club service I had
       | been kicking around all this time. The blog is my place to
       | discuss interesting ideas from whatever books I'm reading (such
       | as this fascinating "resulting" idea [4] I learned from _Thinking
       | In Bets_ ). If you would like to contribute to the blog I am open
       | to that possibility (just dig around on the site or my personal
       | site to figure out how to contact me).
       | 
       | [2]: https://kayce.basqu.es/sabbatical/prologue
       | 
       | [3]: https://bookworm.club/about/
       | 
       | [4]: https://bookworm.club/blog/resulting/
        
         | TedDoesntTalk wrote:
         | I signed up!
         | 
         | I only see how to add books to my account or to connect
         | GoodReads (which I don't use).
         | 
         | How can I see what other people are reading or if I have any
         | matches? I don't even see anything like "zero matches"...
        
           | kaycebasques wrote:
           | Thank you for signing up. In the spirit of MVP I am doing the
           | matching manually now. If the service takes off I will
           | automate that. I understand what you're saying about the need
           | for UI around whether or not there are any matches.
        
         | woile wrote:
         | Thanks for sharing, this fits me really well, I'm gonna give it
         | a try.
        
           | kaycebasques wrote:
           | Your support is much appreciated!
        
         | dang wrote:
         | You should post this as a Show HN. See
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html and
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22336638. It's also good
         | to follow the advice we give to YC startups about how to launch
         | on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/yli.html. The logistical
         | aspects only apply to YC startups, but the communication parts
         | apply to anybody who wants to get attention for their startup
         | or project on HN.
         | 
         | Since the submission today has been on the front page, you
         | should wait at least a few weeks before doing this, to let the
         | hivemind caches clear. Follow-up posts shouldn't come too
         | quickly or else they start having an anti-curiosity effect (htt
         | ps://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...).
         | 
         | If you want to send a draft to hn@ycombinator.com, I can help
         | you edit it. The same offer goes for anybody. However: be aware
         | that the inbox is brutal, my worst case latency is shit, and so
         | you may end up having to wait a long time!
        
           | kaycebasques wrote:
           | Thanks dang, I'll go for it.
        
         | atlasunshrugged wrote:
         | Cool idea, I'll check it out! I've been looking for an online
         | book club that indulges my more esoteric tastes (the last books
         | I read were was a biography of a private mercenary, a sci-fi
         | book, and now a book on the functioning of government) that I
         | wouldn't get from a more traditional book club!
        
           | kaycebasques wrote:
           | Yeah that's exactly my issue too. My interests are all over
           | the board and I don't want to hound my friends into reading a
           | book about a mercenary (to use your example). I just want to
           | talk with other people who already find that topic
           | interesting.
        
       | kazinator wrote:
       | The word "salary" has roots in salt, as well as "sauce".
       | 
       | Children in Slovakia all know a fairy tale called _Sol nad zlato_
       | ( "Salt over Gold", translated as The Salt Prince) written by
       | Pavol Dobsinsky likely sometime in the late 1800's.
       | 
       | It was made into a film in 1983 which became somewhat known
       | internationally.
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Salt_Prince
       | 
       | In the story, the king gets offended in relation to salt, and
       | bans it. Everyone in the land, as well as their livestock, gets
       | sick in addition to having to deal with bland food and losing
       | appetite.
       | 
       | From one full text on the web: _" Pomaly odpadla ludom vsetka
       | chut do jedenia. Len uz tej soli aspon ako marny mak si kazdy
       | ziadal na jazyk. Este aj statok trpel. Kravy a ovce prestali
       | dojit, pretoze nemali soli. Ludia chodili ako omameni a upadali
       | do chorob. Kral a jeho dcery vyzerali uz len ako tone."_
       | 
       | "Gradually, the people shed all their appetite. Everyonec craved
       | even just a tiny smidgeon of salt on their tongues. Even the
       | livestock suffered. Cows and sheep ceased to yield milk for lack
       | of salt. People walked about as if drugged, and fell into
       | illnesses. The king himself and his daughters looked but like
       | shadows."
        
         | sweezyjeezy wrote:
         | > The word "salary" has roots in salt, as well as "sauce".
         | 
         | Same as the expression "(not) worth one's salt". Roman soldiers
         | used to get paid in salt instead of money a lot of the time.
        
         | jandrese wrote:
         | This reads a bit like those old filmstrips where some character
         | gets annoyed at a common object like springs and then wishes
         | them away, only for some supernatural cartoon character to
         | grant their wish and show how the world would fall apart
         | without that corporations product.
         | 
         | Basically long form marketing for your product.
        
           | Terr_ wrote:
           | Lampooned in The Simpsons, as the children are watching a
           | classroom video from the Zinc industry:
           | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1iCZpFMYd0
        
       | jimmyed wrote:
       | Wow, the British sure were really petty.
        
         | sfink wrote:
         | Petty? I could see "cruel", or "clever", or strategic in their
         | subjugation of other populations. It was a calculated tactic,
         | not a petty one.
         | 
         | Here in the US, we mostly slaughtered the natives and forced
         | the survivors into reservations rather than coming up with
         | clever ways of controlling them. Is our way or the British way
         | more petty?
        
       | lovecg wrote:
       | I'm curious what were the dietary sources of salt say earlier
       | than 10 thousand years ago. There's the argument that goes
       | "people never ate salt in modern quantities so evolutionary
       | speaking this is a new shock to the system". Do we actually
       | _need_ all the extra salt we're consuming nowadays? Is it
       | good/neutral/bad for us?
        
         | obiwan14 wrote:
         | There were and there are plant sources of salt, just as with
         | sugar.
         | 
         | > Do we actually _need_ all the extra salt we're consuming
         | nowadays?
         | 
         | Nyet! I almost got a heart attack after eating a way too salty
         | jambalaya my roommate brought back from a party.
        
         | MomoXenosaga wrote:
         | People live up to 90 nowadays. We're keeping people alive far
         | longer than "evolutionary nature" ever intended.
        
         | rhinoceraptor wrote:
         | They were primarily animal sources of salt. Once agriculture
         | developed, it became necessary to supplement that missing salt.
         | From what I can find, that number is about 1/2 to 1/3 of what
         | modern people eat.
         | 
         | That's not to say that's a good thing, sodium intake is a
         | U-shaped curve. Too little is as bad as too much. Here [1,
         | check figure 1] is a study comparing heart disease, stroke,
         | etc. vs sodium excretion (as a proxy for sodium intake). The
         | standard dietary recommendation is 2300mg, which is well below
         | the minimum point in the graph.
         | 
         | And the 'high sodium diet' (3400mg) of average person is also
         | below it, most people should probably be eating more salt,
         | especially if they are sweating more from exercise or live in a
         | hot climate.
         | 
         | [1]: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/1105553
        
           | mytailorisrich wrote:
           | > _And the 'high sodium diet' (3400mg) of average person is
           | also below it, most people should probably be eating more
           | salt,_
           | 
           | That's a very dangerous advice to give loosely based on one
           | paper and against the advice of about all health
           | organisations worldwide...
        
             | nradov wrote:
             | If you dig deeper into the research behind most of the
             | nutritional advice promulgated by health organizations
             | you'll find that it doesn't actually meet modern evidence-
             | based medicine criteria. And there's no reliable proof that
             | publishing such advice has ever produced better public
             | health outcomes.
        
         | mytailorisrich wrote:
         | > _Do we actually _need_ all the extra salt we're consuming
         | nowadays? Is it good /neutral/bad for us?_
         | 
         | Of course we don't need it, and too much salt is indeed bad for
         | us [1] [2] (hence all the campaigns about eating less salty).
         | 
         | According to the references I've quickly found, for instance,
         | an American consumes on average 3,400mg of sodium per day when
         | the body needs _less_ than 500mg (obviously this may be higher
         | if you sweat a lot for some reason).
         | 
         | [1] https://www.fda.gov/food/nutrition-education-resources-
         | mater...
         | 
         | [2] https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-living/healthy-
         | eating/eat-s...
        
           | nradov wrote:
           | Those links are rather misleading and don't appear to account
           | for the latest research.
           | 
           | https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6.
           | ..
        
             | mytailorisrich wrote:
             | In relation to the commenter I was replying to the key is
             | how much is actually _needed_. If you have more specific
             | information on this that 'd be great.
             | 
             | Your point seems only about how much really is too much and
             | the article you linked to is suggesting that the WHO
             | recommendation is very conservative. However, I'm not
             | really clear why you think any of my previous comment or
             | references were misleading: I don't think it is under
             | debate that we do not need all the sodium we eat and that
             | too much of it is indeed bad for health.
        
               | WalterSear wrote:
               | > _Sodium intake was associated with cardiovascular
               | disease and strokes only in communities where mean intake
               | was greater than 5 g /day. A strategy of sodium reduction
               | in these communities and countries but not in others
               | might be appropriate._
        
               | mytailorisrich wrote:
               | Hence my previous comment you're 'replying' to: It's only
               | arguing about how much sodium becomes really bad, which
               | is at best peripheral to the what was discussed. What's
               | your point?
        
               | nradov wrote:
               | How much you "need" varies tremendously based on body
               | weight, genetics, climate, and activity. A roofer working
               | outside in the Louisiana summer will need way more salt
               | than a sedentary office worker in Oregon. Most people who
               | are metabolically healthy and sufficiently hydrated can
               | maintain a proper sodium balance with no negative health
               | impacts even if they consume a little extra salt. But
               | some fraction of the population will suffer hypertension
               | and other conditions; this is usually a symptom of deeper
               | underlying physiological problems.
        
         | JumpCrisscross wrote:
         | > _what were the dietary sources of salt say earlier than 10
         | thousand years ago._
         | 
         | For inland communities, meat and salt licks. For coastal
         | communities, seawater.
         | 
         | > _There's the argument that goes "people never ate salt in
         | modern quantities so evolutionary speaking this is a new shock
         | to the system"._
         | 
         | These arguments are indistinguishable from those suffering from
         | the naturalistic fallacy [1] (EDIT: appeal to nature). One can
         | construct an argument in its form for and against virtually any
         | behavior, depending on what evidence one considers ( _e.g._
         | which populations one samples), assumptions one makes
         | (interpolating the archaeological evidence) and how far back
         | one looks (early civilization, early humans, early hominids,
         | _et cetera_ ).
         | 
         | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy
        
           | thethirdone wrote:
           | Arguing that our current lifestyle is not what evolution
           | optimized for is not a fallacy. There is no "ought" or "good"
           | in the original quote.
           | 
           | Many of the modern differences in environment from earlier
           | humans would be considered "good" by most people. Extra salt
           | is probably "bad" in most cases, but it is definitely
           | different.
        
             | JumpCrisscross wrote:
             | > _our current lifestyle is not what evolution optimized
             | for_
             | 
             | It's not. But neither is a senior person living healthily
             | and happily into their late years something evolution
             | considered. We're trying our biology in ways evolution
             | doesn't care for, aiming for goals it never considered.
             | 
             | Rhetorically, I can construct arguments for (coastal
             | communities being historically healthy and consuming more
             | salt) and against (ancient civilizations were chronically
             | salt starved) modern salt consumption with this form of
             | argument. There are too many degrees of freedom amidst
             | sparse evidence in a diverse, heterogenous archaeological
             | record.
             | 
             | > _modern differences in environment from earlier humans
             | would be considered "good" by most people_
             | 
             | Those people tend to consider the nutrient-rich versions of
             | plants we've bred for millennia while disregarding the
             | toxins, pathogens and general wear-and-tear a Paleolithic
             | human would have been subjected to.
        
           | glenstein wrote:
           | Are you sure that's what the naturalistic fallacy is? I've
           | always understood the naturalistic fallacy to be that, for
           | some things, it was fallacious to try and break them down
           | into simpler parts. This idea is often invoked in the context
           | of academic moral philosophy.
           | 
           | So far as I can tell, it seems like you are talking about
           | something closer to "appeal to nature", and your own link
           | even has a line urging people not to confuse one for the
           | other.
           | 
           | >The naturalistic fallacy should not be confused with the
           | appeal to nature fallacy, which is exemplified by forms of
           | reasoning such as "Something is natural; therefore, it is
           | morally acceptable" or "This property is unnatural;
           | therefore, this property is undesirable."
        
           | hinkley wrote:
           | I think we can also safely assume that if proteins from
           | salmon can be found up to 200 miles inland from their
           | spawning grounds, that the salt and calcium from those fish
           | also makes the same journey.
        
         | hinkley wrote:
         | I think the only first world people having any issues with salt
         | consumption are folks trying to live entirely off the land, and
         | vegetarian leaning. While looking for other things, I've found
         | a couple of videos talking about what plants bioaccumulate salt
         | and how to extract it. I think it depends on whether the plant
         | is otherwise poisonous. If it's edible then clearly making
         | broth out of it would be the most productive option.
         | 
         | Many of our biggest civilizations have access to the ocean or
         | river deltas. They would have had access to salt. From what I
         | understand, predators get their entire salt intake from the
         | animals they eat (blood, in particular?), and when we ate the
         | entire animal that probably would have worked for us as well.
         | 
         | If you're trying to get salt from plants it's because you don't
         | or won't have other options. There was a time that discovering
         | salt deposits within your kingdom had huge political
         | implications.
        
           | melolife wrote:
           | It's actually relatively easy to be sodium deficient if you
           | are physically active (as you shed sodium via sweat) and
           | don't eat processed foods regardless of whether or not you
           | are vegetarian. In my case the only significant source of
           | sodium other than the salt shaker is cheese.
        
         | jjtheblunt wrote:
         | ocean fish?
        
           | cpach wrote:
           | I think so too. And oysters, shellfish, etc.
        
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