[HN Gopher] Show HN: Long Range E-Bike
___________________________________________________________________
Show HN: Long Range E-Bike
Author : jacquesm
Score : 504 points
Date : 2021-11-12 11:25 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (jacquesmattheij.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (jacquesmattheij.com)
| uf00lme wrote:
| Wow, this would have been perfect for me when I was younger. I
| hope this will become more mainstream, an off roader would really
| open up the places to explore on a day trip.
| birdyrooster wrote:
| How many times are you going to tempt fate? You already had an
| accident which makes it so you can't easily ride a regular bike
| anymore and yet here you are on an e-bike. I don't really want an
| answer, just more expressing my dismay. Good luck!
| jacquesm wrote:
| That was a pretty bad accident but the mechanics of it were -
| retrospectively - quite predictable. It's just that a low
| recumbent _seemed_ very safe right up to the second that it
| wasn 't.
|
| Anyway, those two really don't compare, and I can ride a
| regular bike just not quite as easily as before. Those screws
| and the steel really should be taken out but between COVID and
| work there hasn't really been a 3 month gap where I figured I
| would chance it, because it's a full recovery after that again.
|
| Thanks for the concern though, and I'll try to stay in one
| piece.
| cassepipe wrote:
| I still remember the author of of the post for making pianojacq,
| a free in-browser piano learning helper software Yet another
| interesting project! I wish I had the knowledge to dive into
| making the same bike. How about a crowd funding effort to
| manufacture some more?
| sleepysysadmin wrote:
| next project:
|
| 300watt solar panel charging the batteries as you go.
|
| Can be used as roof or just panel above the rear tire.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Hehe, that's more like a sail :) I'd hate to ride around with
| that much surface but it's a fun idea!
| dillondoyle wrote:
| This is truly hacker! awesome.
|
| Reading OPs own multiple mentions of live bomb, more than a
| little bit scary, "especially given where it is located" makes me
| nervous just looking at it!
|
| Hopefully op says the casing trespa has enough protection so they
| can get off it it catches fire or the ali express balancer
| breaks. From what I've read managing the batteries is a big part
| of tesla's success.
| 11thEarlOfMar wrote:
| Regenerative braking may be able to help, yes?
|
| https://radpowerbikes.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/36004517...
| lima wrote:
| The tech for that isn't there yet. Direct drive motors are
| impractical (can't disengage, heavy).
| boxcardavin wrote:
| Regen will usually only gain you 3-5% total range, most of the
| power from biking is dissipated as heat through aero drag, even
| if you're biking up and down hills. Source - my company
| exclusively does ebike research and development.
| davedx wrote:
| Inspirational project!
| martin1975 wrote:
| My dream e motorcycle - https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/
| usui wrote:
| I have the 2022 Zero S and it is a delight. Highly recommend it
| for anyone who would be interested to try a motorcycle but
| don't want to deal with clutches. First motorcycle as well.
| There is simply less overhead to getting started, it's more
| noise appopriate for neighbors, and I don't have to worry about
| silent operation since I try to avoid risky maneuvers with
| other drivers when I can. I don't plan on dealing with
| traditional motorcycles ever.
| timerol wrote:
| > I traced it down to the several KA welding pulse that caused
| the ground fault interruptor to be EMP'd. Running the welder
| without ground took care of that.
|
| That's _a_ solution, I suppose. Not one that I would pursue, but
| I 'm glad the author got the pack welded without any injury.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I know my way around electrical stuff, not having ground on the
| welder was ok given the work place setup, but agreed that if
| you are unsure about the possible consequences that you
| shouldn't do that.
|
| Ironically, the only time I ever _really_ got zapped was when I
| was connecting a scope to what I thought was the ground
| terminal of a very large high voltage power supply. The only
| slight problem was that it was a positive ground system...
| amelius wrote:
| Kind of strange that they build scopes with ground tied to
| mains earth, as it is the source of so many problems and
| hazards. Letting the entire thing float would be the proper
| solution.
| jacquesm wrote:
| That's because the metal case can go live if there is an
| internal short. That's what that protects against. But
| agreed, that really caught me out. I had a blind spot for
| days due to the afterimage.
| [deleted]
| amelius wrote:
| It's probably because touching the outer ring of the BNC
| connector (which is at ground) can become dangerous, yes.
|
| So the best way to go about it is to use an isolated
| differential probe. Or use an isolation transformer to
| float your device under test, which is always a good
| idea.
| tgraham wrote:
| Great article. Bosch seems to be the go to for most electric
| bikes sold in london. My experience so far is OK; school run
| replacement has been brilliant. The range estimation is
| ridiculously bad! I find the battery bars are better estimator.
|
| I this spurs on more entrants or drives more features. Recharging
| feels too frequent. There's no feedback on 'driving' style and
| impact on range. I'd love regenerative breaking. Silly things
| like a clock on the control pane would be hugely useful options.
| faeyanpiraat wrote:
| It's a giant fire hazard which can also take you to places.
| jacquesm wrote:
| So far so good :)
| stevesearer wrote:
| We have a pretty good network of fire roads in the southern Los
| Padres National Forest.
|
| Several times recently I have seen hunters and campers using
| E-Bikes to extend their range into the forest. From what I can
| tell they use a cargo trailer for gear as well as extra
| batteries.
|
| It will be interesting to see what other uses being find for
| E-Bikes as ranges increase.
| ngngngng wrote:
| An added benefit for hunters is that deer aren't afraid of the
| sound of bikes. Similar to cars, they just don't care. It's
| much easier to approach a deer on bike than on foot.
| stevesearer wrote:
| These particular roads are also closed to normal vehicle
| traffic (autos and OHV).
|
| I will be interested to see if E-Bikes end up being included
| in the motorized category in the future and therefore not
| allowed on these roads. There is some debate locally as to
| whether they should be allowed on normal trails which are
| already off-limits to motorized vehicles (but OK for standard
| bikes).
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| My father actually inquired on this to my local state
| agency. _Technically_ an ebike is considered a motorized
| vehicle by the state and is not allowed on trails that
| prohibit motorized vehicles. I say technically, because I
| 'm pretty damned sure no game warden is going to give you a
| ticket for riding an ebike. If it looks like a bike, and
| rides like a bike, and you're not riding above bike speeds,
| I think you're safe.
| alistairSH wrote:
| Mountain bikes are classified as motorized (WRT
| Wilderness access at least). If EV bikes are allowed
| where both pedal bikes and ATVs are not, something is
| wrong.
| jdc0589 wrote:
| a friend does this for getting to fishing spots quicker from
| campsites. Sounds like an incredible idea if you've got the
| space for it, especially if you've got a large battery bank in
| your camper/vehicle for partial charges without having to turn
| an engine/generator on (I've got ~100amp hours of lithium
| battery in my truck camper, and I'd probably at least double
| that if I was gonna charge a bike every now and then)
| aeharding wrote:
| > From what I can tell they use a cargo trailer for gear as
| well as extra batteries.
|
| This is the main reason if you might ever buy multiple ebikes
| in your household, buy a drivetrain brand that has generic,
| swappable batteries that can work on all your ebikes. Buying
| batteries is expensive (~$1,000 for Bosch).
|
| For example, some ebikes don't have swappable batteries (either
| they're integrated or are a no-name brand).
|
| The Bosch Powerpack, on the other hand, is ubiquitous and
| swappable. If I'm going on a long trip, I steal the battery
| from my other ebike and bring it along (I have a Surly Big Easy
| cargo bike and a Trek Verve+ 2. My SO also has a Verve+ 2).
|
| Another benefit on buying ebikes with the same powertrain
| manufacturer is the battery lock can be keyed alike. It
| simplifies a lot.
|
| (Oh, one last thing! If you go with Bosch, you can get the
| battery locks keyed alike to Abus U locks.)
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| Oof, $1500 per kWh.
|
| I keep hearing about lithium ion batteries getting so cheap
| per kWh; when is that going to make it into reasonable-
| quality products?
| jacquesm wrote:
| If you can charge your batteries up to 60% when you store
| them for a longer time rather than 100%, then charge to 100%
| just before you need them. That will keep them around that
| much longer. Better still if you can avoid discharging them
| below 15% soc.
| aeharding wrote:
| Makes sense for seasonal and recreational riders. We both
| ride year round though almost daily for transportation.
|
| As for discharging below 15%, Bosch's firmware is pretty
| smart about this. It keeps a reserve that's used for
| powering lights for a few hours after the assist cuts off.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Yes, that's at 5% state-of-charge, which is a bit low. If
| you charge up to 100% and discharge to that cut-off point
| you will get 300 to 400 cycles out of your battery. If
| you go from 80% state-of-charge down to 20% then you can
| get thousands of cycles out of your batteries. That's one
| of the reasons I designed that pack as large as it is: to
| stay within the 80-to-20 range on a 100 km trip.
| aeharding wrote:
| Interesting! I've only gotten that low a handful of
| times. Definitely a bigger battery would be good if
| you're going that low on a regular basis.
| anon776 wrote:
| The biggest issue I have with getting more than 20 miles out of
| my e-bike is the controller. The manufacturer of the controller
| set it to shut off when the battery pack hits 42v. (using a 52v
| pack) Sucks pushing a bike up a hill when you know you still have
| ~15% capacity remaining.
| jacquesm wrote:
| That's to increase the life-span of the pack. At 15% max
| discharge the pack will live much longer (orders of magnitude)
| than if you were to ride it down to zero. This is precisely why
| I over dimensioned my pack.
| twodave wrote:
| Awesome project Jacques! I saw a comment of yours on an article a
| day or two ago and was hoping to see this pop up soon.
|
| I've found the most difficult thing about riding an e-bike is the
| other motorists have no idea how to react to you. You're not
| really a regular bicycle anymore due to your speed, but you're
| also not a motorcycle that deserves its own lane. I have at least
| one car turn in front of me almost every trip out just because
| they're misjudging my speed. I get honked and yelled at when on
| the road because folks get frustrated when I'm using the left-
| hand side of the right-turn lane as a bike path.
|
| Sidewalks/bike paths tend to be a lot less safe in residential
| areas as well, since cars coming out of their driveways really
| don't expect an e-bike to come rolling through. I've learned to
| dramatically reduce speed in areas like this.
|
| Aside from those things, I love it! I ride the e-bike whenever
| I'm going somewhere in range (I live in Florida so things tend to
| be spread out) and the weather permits. My bike gets about 80km
| which is more than enough for anyplace I want to go on a bicycle
| anyway.
| nybble41 wrote:
| > You're not really a regular bicycle anymore due to your
| speed...
|
| The top speed (with assist) for class 1 & 2 e-bikes is well
| within the speed range of a regular bicycle. 15 MPH is
| considered a reasonable average speed for beginners, and 18-22
| MPG is not out of the question with training. I've ridden my
| own e-bike past 20 MPH _with no assist_ on occasion, and being
| a foldable model designed for electric assist it has a higher
| mass, smaller (20 ") wheel radius, higher rolling resistance
| (due to low-pressure 3-4" tires), and lower gearing than your
| typical non-electric commuter bike.
|
| > ... but you're also not a motorcycle that deserves its own
| lane.
|
| Bicycles should have their own lane, whether electric or not,
| regardless of speed. It's not safe to share the lane with
| another vehicle.
| bjourne wrote:
| 22 mph = 35 kmh. The average speed of Tour de France is 40
| kmh: https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/tour-de-
| france/2016/gc/...
| nybble41 wrote:
| I wasn't talking about a long-distance race like the Tour
| de France. This is average speeds over a one-hour period.
| If an ordinary cyclist can reach those speeds, even for
| just a few minutes at a time, then cars need to be equipped
| to deal with it. The fact that an e-bike can sustain such
| speeds over a longer interval doesn't fundamentally change
| anything.
| cycomanic wrote:
| The average speed over the TdF is completely irrelevant,
| they cross the alpes. Generally on a race bike riding at
| 40kph if you have a slight tailwind is very doable over
| extended periods. If you are riding in a group of riders
| riding along at 40 is very straight forward, you can easily
| go over 50 (the fastest TdF stages are around 50 average
| over more than 180km distance. I can easily ride 30km/h on
| a regular commuting bike over extended periods (and I'm
| currently quite unfit).
| jacquesm wrote:
| I've tried driving over the top of the motor on this bike and
| it is almost impossible. I'm a pretty strong cyclist and I
| never managed more than 48 kph and that only very briefly.
| The drag is insane.
| m4x wrote:
| Trying to exceed the 32 km/h limit on my ebike is similar.
| It's like hitting a brick wall when the assist drops out.
|
| I assume it's a combination of the extra weight and the
| extra losses from pedalling the motor as well as the wheels
| (mostly the second part I think). Going faster on my non-
| electric mountain bike is significantly easier.
| mikesabbagh wrote:
| I just discovered electric bikes lately, and started going to
| the office on an ebike instead of subway!! I then discovered
| how dangerous this can get especially at the end of the day
| when my brain is tired!
|
| I thought of stop riding bikes, but then chose to have a life
| insurance instead
| alistairSH wrote:
| * You're not really a regular bicycle anymore due to your
| speed, but you're also not a motorcycle that deserves its own
| lane.*
|
| If you're traveling at normal road speeds, wouldn't you be a
| (electric) motorcycle? And require lights, tags, and insurance
| like any other motorcycle?
| llampx wrote:
| That's how it is for S-Pedelecs in Germany.
| nicce wrote:
| In Finland you get heavy fines for going faster than 25km/h
| with motor-assisted ebike (if using motor). If you go
| faster, depending on the speed, you are fined based on
| taxes avoided on using this kind of vehicle, plus fines
| based on driving unlicensed vehicle, plus fines possibly
| driving without driver's license and some other fines too.
| wayoutthere wrote:
| E-bikes in the US require pressure on the pedals to avoid
| being classified as vehicles (they're cycling assist
| devices). That said, many people have retrofitted those
| assist systems with garage modifications that remove the need
| to push the pedals or even add a digital "throttle".
|
| Illegal? Sure. Are they going to get charged for it? Probably
| not.
| stef25 wrote:
| Whatever you do in traffic, be very careful. I'm still driving
| a car and inner city traffic is basically slaloming between
| cyclists. If something goes wrong, only one of us will end up
| in hospital.
|
| I do also ride my bike on weekends have have been riding a
| 650cc motorbike for 15+ years, so not at all against 2 wheels.
| It's just that most people on two wheels seem to have started
| very recently and they don't know how to behave.
| emj wrote:
| As a cyclist I tend not to care so much about all the
| mistakes other people do. Realistically it's a very small
| percentage of people that are new in traffic, the problem is
| that you usually only see the mistakes people do. You will
| never see that cylist who changed their pace 20s ago to avoid
| you.
|
| What has been shown is that people who travel by many
| different modes; cylists, pedestrian, motorcycle, car, bus
| etc, are usually much safer and better at navigating traffic.
| We are all still masters at judging people only based on
| feelings though that will probably never change.
| pmontra wrote:
| I agree and provide examples.
|
| As a cyclist I know that a road bike is faster than a car
| in a roundabout so when I drive my car I don't overtake
| bikes right before roundabouts: either they'll try to
| overtake me right where the road gets narrower (unsafe) or
| have to slow down behind me (and they don't have an
| engine). So I slow down a little and overtake them after
| the roundabout. Same thing when approaching a red traffic
| light. I'll have to stop anyway.
|
| Some pedestrians keep the left on mixed bicycle /
| pedestrian roads (this is a drive on the right country)
| probably to defend against the occasional crazy cyclist.
| That's dangerous IMHO because as a cyclist I get surprised
| sometimes when I didn't realize they are walking or worse
| running towards me and I get suddenly closer to them than I
| foresaw.
|
| And as a driver it's really difficult to see a bicycle with
| no lights at night (nearly all food deliveries here.) At
| least wear some reflecting clothes, but buy a rear light
| and charge it as you do with your phone. Front lights are
| important too. One of them nearly crashed into my left door
| on a rainy night because I didn't see him when I came out
| from a stop.
| jacquesm wrote:
| In the USA the situation is much more risky than here.
|
| I don't like riding in traffic mostly because drivers tend to
| have a short fuse for anything that isn't exactly at the limit,
| but on bike paths everything works just fine. The problem is
| that s-pedelecs are technically lumped in with the scooters,
| even though there is no throttle and there is absolutely no way
| you are going to sustain 40 Kph+ for anything but a very short
| period. But they're still pretty new and little by little
| municipalities are adapting and allowing s-pedelecs to use the
| bike lanes. What helps is that s-pedelec riders are extremely
| defensive. In town I simply reduce the assist to 'eco' and
| cycle with the rest of the bikes, and on the intercity bike
| paths I go as fast I conditions allow, typically 35 to 38 or
| so. On a longer trip that averages out to 33 to 35 Kph, which
| means a 1 hour car trip turns into a 2 hour bike trip, which is
| acceptable (and never traffic jams, which can turn that 1 hour
| car trip into a three hour car trip!).
| chli wrote:
| Very cool project. I'm currently evaluating whether I could
| commute 75km per day on a pedelec. In Switzerland there is a
| small bike manufacturer that makes long range pedelec :
| https://www.speedped.com/ (German only). It's very expensive
| though but the battery pack can be updated to something quite
| impressive.
| jacquesm wrote:
| You definitely could, but .ch is a bit more mountainous
| than where I live to put it mildly so it's not the distance
| that I would worry about but the elevation change. If
| that's within bounds you likely would be fine in three
| seasons but winter would be problematic, if not downright
| dangerous.
| rjbwork wrote:
| I have an e-bike and I disagree with your assertions. I'm a
| fat asthmatic and I have absolutely no problem maintaining
| 40kph for long stretches of time on my bike. The fastest I've
| done on it (on a large hill but still) is 42.7MPH (~68Kph).
| Average cruising speed on flat land can easily be
| 30-33mph(48-53kph). Not all e-bikes are capable of this, but
| they are certainly not some kind of rare expensive
| impossibility - mine was less than 3000 USD.
|
| My point is that you should be more ingenuous with your
| assertions of what the capabilities of these bikes are when
| communicating with people about it. Nothing makes people more
| skeptical than reading things that are just plain false from
| an advocate.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| If something has that average speed capability, why is not
| licensed, registered, insured and held accountable as any
| vehicle would be? My 50cc scooter appears to have
| comparable speeds (maybe 10kph higher), and I wear proper
| armour & helmet, took the classes passed the test, am
| registered, licenses & insured.
|
| That's my massive pet peeve & safety concern: I WANT to
| love e-Bikes, and all those sorts of things; and like a
| fellow poster, I've been riding both 500-650cc motorcycles
| and 50-125cc scooters for more than a decade so 2-wheelers
| are part of my life; but basically all the ads, shops, and
| salespeople over here are focusing on "You don't need
| license, you don't need insurance, you don't need to behave
| like a vehicle and obey the rules" as their main and
| primary sales point; and therefore the behaviour of riders
| is equally nonchalant. In the Toronto area (and it's
| important to be explicit because this is definitely
| different in different geographies), the relationship
| between cars and non-gas two-wheelers is charitably
| described as "strained" ("murderous/self-righteous hate"
| may be more accurate), and we all need to get better and
| understanding how we can co-exist and behave _responsibly_
| on the road.
| kmtrowbr wrote:
| I drive, walk, and bike often in San Francisco. I rode a
| 650cc motorcycle for 10 years when I was in my 20s.
|
| In the Panhandle, for example, there is a mixed use bike
| / walking path. It is very dangerous for the walkers even
| with normal bikes, as the bikes are whizzing by the
| walkers at 20mph. However one day I was walking, and a
| HUGE mutant E-bike with massive fat tires & very heavy
| frame, flew by me at what seemed like 30-40mph -- and to
| me, it felt exactly like a near miss from a motorcycle.
|
| There are other safety concerns with recent trends, with
| the Slow streets. Everyone walks in the middle of those
| streets & the pedestrians treat them as their exclusive
| domain: kids playing, etc. But the drivers long ago
| stopped respecting the "slow street" concept, and whiz
| around the traffic cones, and then go 30mph down the
| street. The city is still treating them as an experiment,
| which is a part of the problem.
|
| I love both E-Bikes and the Slow Streets, and they should
| be a huge part of our future: * Cities should make the
| Slow Streets official and modify them to make them
| impractical to use for driving a car (perhaps making them
| have a single curving central lane). * Likewise the
| E-Bikes need a bit more regulation and limited strictly
| to bike only lanes, not the mixed biking / pedestrian
| paths.
|
| As it is currently the progress of society and technology
| has created a bit of a dangerous situation.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| a single curving central lane is one solution.
|
| i also like the dutch solution, in which entrances into
| these slow zones are generally with a raised crosswalk
| that acts as a speed bump.
| jacquesm wrote:
| You get caught speeding in a slow street here it will put
| you in serious trouble, and rightly so.
| stef25 wrote:
| Most if not all electric bikes here in EU won't get close
| to those speeds, regardless of your fitness. I don't think
| it's even allowed.
|
| If it's capable of doing 50KPH it should be treated as a
| motorcycle, away from other cyclists and pedestrians and
| the rider should have the same knowledge as a motorcyclist
| wrt to how to behave in traffic.
| marvin wrote:
| Power assist cuts out at different points, depending on
| design choice (and jurisdiction). Norwegian e-bikes, for
| instance, disconnect their power assist above 25kph and you
| need to pedal like crazy to go significantly faster than
| that.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I'm sure there are other e-bikes, but those are not
| available where I live. The fastest here are the Stromers,
| they are a little bit faster but not exceptionally so and
| they also cut out at 45 kph, just like mine.
|
| At a guess your bike outputs more power than is legal here.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Anything over 45kph or 750W is illegal unless registered
| as a moped in California at least (and much of the rest
| of the US as well). Enforcement is lax in most places
| though.
| rjbwork wrote:
| >At a guess your bike outputs more power than is legal
| here.
|
| From a brief look - no. Belgium says "4000 W 45 km/h
| limited "speed pedelecs", which are classed as mopeds for
| all requirements."
|
| Mine has a 750W nominal motor, but seems to output around
| 1050W at peak.
| jacquesm wrote:
| 4000 W? That sounds a little excessive :)
|
| A typical s-pedelec is somewhere between 350 and 750 W
| nominal and with peaks of maybe twice that.
| rjbwork wrote:
| Yeah it's totally excessive, lol. That's just what
| wikipedia says about your country's laws. No idea if it's
| accurate, haha.
| user_7832 wrote:
| I'm not sure why you would assume the author is being
| disingenuous. Your bike is almost certainly very different
| from the author's, and a more powerful motor is going to
| get you faster.
|
| Fun fact/side note - power requirements generally scale
| with the cube of speed due to rapidly increasing air drag,
| so going at 50km/h is much harder (and requires a much
| stronger motor) than going at 30km/h.
| rjbwork wrote:
| I specifically did not choose the word disingenuous. I
| asked him to be _more_ ingenuous.
|
| His assertion was "there is absolutely no way you are
| going to sustain 40 Kph+ for anything but a very short
| period". I disagree, and I think minimizing the
| capabilities of these machines in the rhetoric is
| counterproductive to converting skeptics.
|
| In the US it's 100% legal to go 28MPH on them for as long
| as you can - which for me would be nearly forever on flat
| ground.
| hackerkreise wrote:
| The full sentence was: " The problem is that s-pedelecs
| are technically lumped in with the scooters, even though
| there is no throttle and there is absolutely no way you
| are going to sustain 40 Kph+ for anything but a very
| short period." He is explicitly talking about S-Pedelecs
| which are the fastest legal E-Bikes in most of Europe. He
| never said that you are generally not able to sustain 40+
| MPH in general.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| Depends on the jurisdiction. NYC only allows 25MPH: https
| ://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/bicyclists/ebikes.shtml
|
| At some point, we do need to restrict faster vehicles
| from operating in the bike lanes and the sidewalks,
| because the speed differentials will probably end up
| killing someone.
| m4x wrote:
| I'm curious - what ebike do you have that can easily cruise
| at 48-53 kph for extended periods?
|
| In most countries that would be far above the legal limits
| imposed on ebikes. As a result, the ebikes available for
| purchase are all limited to 25-32 kph max and typically
| have power limits of 250-300 W. Since ebikes are a lot
| heavier, exceeding 32 kph for more than a few seconds is
| generally very difficult.
|
| I don't think GP is being disingenuous with any of his
| assertions. In the US there might be ebikes with much
| higher top speeds, but jacquesm doesn't live in the US and
| neither do most of the other people on this planet. Most
| ebikes sold do exactly what he's describing.
| rjbwork wrote:
| I have a JuicedBikes CrossCurrent X. They only made my
| particular configuration for a short amount of time
| around early 2018 - it has a massive battery, a 52v
| system, a 750W Bafang hub motor, and location tracking
| within the battery (though I stopped paying for it since
| I moved out of the city). Their newer models are just as,
| or even more capable.
|
| Yeah, that is the legal limit but I turned it off in the
| bios. When cycling on roads I want to be going as fast as
| possible to keep things safer for me by moving at roughly
| traffic speeds and disincentivizing dangerous maneuvers
| by motorists. On bike trails and such I keep to 20mph or
| so as safe.
|
| I actually tried to get mine registered as a moped with a
| license plate and insurance coverage etc. but was
| essentially told to take a hike by the state and
| insurance companies. So I did.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| OK, so you disagree with assertions because you ride an
| illegal vehicle. And want...what? Your use case to be
| taken as standard? Or for people to understand there are
| lunatics on the road?
|
| We know :)
|
| (to be fair and charitable: I agree that moving with
| traffic is, everything else equal, safer than not moving
| with traffic. But everything else is NOT equal - I am not
| convinced you have the weight [i.e. centre of gravity,
| inertia, ability to absorb bumps, etc], maneuverability,
| traction, braking power, and as you point out insurance
| or license and possibly training, and possibly protective
| systems as other vehicles moving at the same speed)
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| "I disagree with your assertions about sustained speed
| because I turned off the assist limit."
|
| Okay, you should have said that in the first post. If
| you're not using the class of vehicle the comment was
| talking about, your experience isn't really relevant.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| The rules vary widely in the US.
|
| Anything going faster than 25MPH (40 km/h) without
| cutting out in NYC is legally classified as a moped. http
| s://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/bicyclists/ebikes.shtml
| aftbit wrote:
| Class 3 limits in the US (pedal assist only, no throttle
| allowed) are set at ~28 mph (~45 kph). Class 2 limit
| (throttle allowed) is ~25 mph (40 kph). I've also ridden
| some DIY'ed ebike conversions with unlocked controllers
| that'll happily hit 40 mph (65 kph) if you're feeling
| particularly suicidal that day.
| wiether wrote:
| > You're not really a regular bicycle anymore due to your speed
|
| I don't understand, ebikes are regulated and the assistance
| will top at 25kmh in most EU countries, which is a very average
| speed for a bike without assistance.
|
| Unless you're talking about speed bikes, that can ride faster
| but are regulated like a motorcycle with license plate and
| can't ride on cycle paths. So it's just an electric motorcycle
| that looks like a bicycle.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Electric moped that _works_ like a bicycle.
| analog31 wrote:
| You deserve your own lane, although the rules vary from state
| to state. Some states have FRAP (as far right as practicable),
| others (such as mine) say that a cyclist should take the lane.
| As a motorist, and cyclist, I cringe when I see a cyclist half-
| in and half-out of traffic. As a cyclist, I avoid streets with
| fast, congested car traffic altogether. Fortunately, my locale
| has a lot of alternatives for bikes, including some bike paths
| plus neighborhood streets.
| stef25 wrote:
| When getting your motorcycle license here in Belgium they
| teach you to always take the lane. Ride 3/4 of the way in. If
| you give the car some space, they'll drive closer to you, try
| to pass and then get impatient & aggressive when they can't.
| If you take up all the space they'll usually just accept it.
|
| Obviously rules for bicycles may be slightly different but
| more and more inner city roads here in EU are now clearly
| marked as bicycle friendly.
| analog31 wrote:
| In the US, we have something called "sharrows" which are a
| picture of a bike, and an arrow, painted on the street. The
| arrow is supposed to show drivers the "line" that a cyclist
| can occupy. Coincident with sharrows, my locale has
| designated "bike boulevards," that are considered to be
| preferred for cyclists. I live on such a street, that is a
| favorite route for riding from a large residential area
| towards the center of town. So I get to eat my breakfast
| and watch the bikes go by every morning.
| yesimahuman wrote:
| Interesting reading this as a US resident that modded an existing
| bike with some parts from Grin and other places. The battery I
| bought has 17Ah which supposedly has ~50 miles of range which is
| more than enough for my needs. I'm also able to throttle control
| and pedal cadence control and hit top speeds of 30+ mph. It's
| unfortunate that modern e-bikes are so locked down and restricted
| because the DIY route is a lot of work and pretty expensive, but
| clearly mainstream e-bikes are arbitrarily limited and holding
| back the true potential these bikes have.
| gtirloni wrote:
| True potential for what exactly? How do you see them being used
| if the limits were removed?
| xchaotic wrote:
| It's worth saying that it's not to hard to train up to being able
| to do 100-200km rides with no electronic assist. At such
| distance, the weight saving is probably outweighing the battery
| and you can use the space in the frame can be used for luggage
| such as extra clothing. At longer distances the ride limiting
| factor is comfort, not stamina / endurance - here the Ebike adds
| nothing
| vneur wrote:
| The author provided a compelling reason for this long-distance
| ebike: they have an injury and the acceleration assist allows
| them to cycle without aggravating the injury. I don't think
| it's fair to assume that every person who wants to cycle 200km
| can do so without electrical assist.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I can do 100K rides just fine, but not in the same time. An
| e-bike is _much_ more convenient for that, we have this thing
| called wind here that can really get you. On my 10 speed (an
| elderly Guerciotti, very nice bike) my peak is 38 or so and I
| can average about 28 for a two hour ride, after that it drops
| and there is no way I could do a return after 65 km at that
| speed without slowing down considerably.
|
| I've done many 10's of thousands of kilometers on bikes and
| there is no way to compare the two in practice, even the very
| best racing bike can't keep up with an e-bike over a long
| distance unless the rider is tour-de-France level.
|
| E-bikes add range, compared to what you would do on your own in
| the same time. That is what makes them viable replacement for a
| car, suddenly 60% or so of your car trips are within the range
| of the e-bike, and with this large battery for me that is more
| like 95% or even more. Since getting the second battery for the
| e-bike I haven't used the car more than twice (that's a few
| months). Car ownership has gone from being a 'must' to
| 'uneconomical' and no regular bike that I've ever owned had
| that property.
|
| And that's before we get into the fact that without the assist
| I have a hard time to get started at all.
| cactus2093 wrote:
| This has got to be a troll comment. On an ebike on the top
| assist levels you can pedal leisurely at ~50watts and get 300
| watts of output to travel at 30kph plus, and tackle any climbs
| with no issue, while not getting your heartrate up all that
| high. Sure 100-200km is still far and not everyone will want to
| go that far even on an ebike, but it's undoubtedly much easier
| than a non-assisted bike. You have to train pretty seriously as
| a cyclist and be in really good shape to ride 100+ km like it's
| no big deal. And you have to make sure you plan out water stops
| and plan enough food for the ~5000+ calories you will burn.
|
| And "the weight saving is probably outweighing the battery", is
| completely untrue. The increased weight of an ebike is probably
| adding like 5-10 watts of drag on flat ground and maybe 20-30
| watts on hills, while the motor is providing 250 watts of
| output. It's not even close to canceling out, that would be
| insane.
| foxfluff wrote:
| Well I can do 100-200 km rides with no electronic assist but I
| am quite tired and hungry as all hell after that. And it takes
| time (I don't think I've averaged over 30 kph on a long trip so
| yeah that's 3-6 hours of cycling plus breaks).
|
| I would like to be able to make these trips 1) faster 2) with
| less effort.
| moralestapia wrote:
| Love it, glad to see you keep doing nice stuff, Jacques.
|
| Also glad to see there are still real _makers_ in the world.
| Makers do, period.
|
| Another type of person would've asked for 10M of seed funding for
| "a revolutionary way to commute to work, target market: the whole
| world" and would've delivered nothing after 2 years of "working
| really hard on it".
| temp_praneshp wrote:
| And then there are people like you and me who do neither and
| spend time talking shit on HN.
| moralestapia wrote:
| Well, kind of, ..., my 2021 has been one of my most
| productive years ever.
| lima wrote:
| > Another type of person would've asked for 10M of seed funding
| for "a revolutionary way to commute to work, target market: the
| whole world" and would've delivered nothing after 2 years of
| "working really hard on it".
|
| ... and yet another person would've bootstrapped a company off
| it :-)
| user_7832 wrote:
| I have a question for the author - what safety precautions do you
| take against theft for such an e-bike, especially when going to
| public places like supermarkets? I recently came to the
| Netherlands and have heard that bike theft is common, especially
| for expensive bikes. I would guess that such an e-bike would be
| an attractive target, so do you take additional precautions when
| parking in public places (like 2/3/4 locks), or simply not park
| in public places at all?
| tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
| Do people steal the bikes by picking them up with a car, or do
| they try to ride them away?
|
| I'm surprised I haven't seen e-bikes with an electronic
| immobilizer (that will either disable the motor or use it as a
| brake, unless unlocked with a code or physical token).
| bcherry wrote:
| I park a similar ebike in San Francisco fairly often. I have a
| good U-Lock and only lock to secure bike rings on main streets
| but haven't had any trouble. I've left it for hours at a time,
| but never later than about 9pm. You can mitigate the overall
| risk with an insurance plan, which is only a few hundred bucks
| a year.
| megablast wrote:
| Get two different locks, one cable lock as well.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I would not leave it outside for more than a few minutes
| unattended. It's too expensive for that.
| user_7832 wrote:
| That makes sense, thank you. I assume you use a
| "regular"/beater bike for such activities (like
| supermarkets)?
| jacquesm wrote:
| Yep, we have an oldie sticking around for that purpose
| alone. The lock is worth more than the bike (which is the
| only way you get to keep your bike in NL ;) ).
| gdubs wrote:
| Everything about this is awesome, great work. Love the write up
| -- the bits on safety in particular. The layout is also oddly
| aesthetically pleasing. Inspiring, though I'm so so far at the
| beginning of the road with hardware and electronics. Might
| attempt a solar powered pond pump and battery though.
| nousermane wrote:
| > S-Pedelec (...) top speed 45 kph (...) in many places you are
| forced to ride in traffic
|
| Yes. This is the way. Thank you, Dutch government.
|
| If somebody feels like wheezing an almost completely silent 200kg
| projectile, godspeed. But please gtfo from the urban bike paths,
| if at all possible.
| jacquesm wrote:
| It weighs half that, including me, and the average speed over a
| longer trip is about 33 to 35 Kph. In cities you ride just as
| fast as the rest of the bike traffic, there isn't any point in
| trying to go faster, and top speed is _rarely_ achieved, you 'd
| need a 100% full battery and a rider in very good condition.
| More usual you'll be around 35 to 38 kph in open country where
| there is very little other traffic.
|
| My 'commute' is 64 km, it takes me two hours on the dot door-
| to-door.
| conductr wrote:
| My concern at those speeds is traction. I prefer fat tires so
| a bit of loose gravel or a pothole doesn't ruin my day.
| jacquesm wrote:
| 2 1/4" tires on it, traction is pretty good. Haven't fallen
| yet, had to brake hard for animals (cats, dogs, deer, a
| rabbit or two, and once a boar). So far so good, but having
| already had a pretty bad bike accident I'm pretty careful
| now.
| FuckButtons wrote:
| I go at that speed on my road bike under my own power with
| teeny tiny tyres to reduce drag. By comparison this thing
| is safer since it has disk brakes and larger tires.
| gglanzani wrote:
| Using my Stromer ST1X -- which lacks the top of the line
| motor of the ST3 and ST5 -- I can bike at 45kph at any
| battery % above 30.
|
| I am probably 140kg with bike, battery, laptop, clothes, and
| stuff.
|
| Outside the cities I can go in the bike lane, and I am
| absolutely twice as fast as most bikes.
|
| I live in the Netherlands, so everything being flat helps.
| jacquesm wrote:
| That's a very neat bike and that motor is twice as strong
| as the one on the Bosch models. What kind of range do you
| get out of it at 45 kph?
| gglanzani wrote:
| Something like 50/55km on the 800Wh battery.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Nice! Stromers are great gear, I like the looks too.
| tda wrote:
| I recently sold my ST2. I could get only 30-60km on a full
| (1kwh) battery at max speed (46 kmh). But then why would
| you go below max speed om a 7k bicycle? I got rid of it
| because it was also very expensive in maintenance, and
| because cycling on the road slightly slower than cars
| really sucks (a few too many encounters with aggressive
| cars). The stromers are near impossible to ride without
| assist, think because of the regenerative engine. When the
| battery was empty or I had one of those weird error 18
| things I could go abou 17kmh with a lot of effort. I got a
| vanmoof bike instead niwy, so much nicer. 30kmh, easy to
| pedal past assist speed cause of light front wheel motor.
| Lightweight, 500wh battery is pretty ok (also same 30-60km
| range). Lots of repairs (under warranty) though, build
| quality is subpar. My 30km commute is 65 minutes now on my
| vanmoof, where it was 50 minutes on a stromer.
| jacquesm wrote:
| How was the Stromer reliability wise?
| gglanzani wrote:
| I don't have the ST2, but 30km on a full battery seems
| off to me :)
| fnord77 wrote:
| I have a class 3 and I don't feel safe riding in bike lanes at
| full speed, zipping by slower bicycles. There's no place to go
| if someone swerves. I will usually ride in traffic instead.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Riding in traffic here is suicide. Drivers get very irritated
| when you are not exactly at the speed limit and I've had more
| than one instance where someone essentially overtook and then
| forced me into the bike lane. And that's just here in town,
| where there is absolutely nothing to gain.
| dQw4w9WgXcQ wrote:
| All the speed of motorcycles without the sound awareness, what
| could possibly go wrong? My overall experience is that E-bike
| riders generally have decent cycling manners, it's the scooter
| and unicycle riders that seem to think they can just crank
| their walking speed up to 30mph and go everywhere a pedestrian
| would. I usually just give them a firm "heads up next time"
| when I get buzzed by an electric motor whine at 20mph.
| orforforof wrote:
| I used to ride a motorcycle, now I have an ebike. They seem
| equally safe to me, which is to say neither are safe at all
| if there are other people on the road. The only solution is
| extremely defensive driving/riding, assume no one (including
| pedestrians) can see you. This attitude has been embedded
| deeply in the motorcycle culture and is the best way to all-
| around responsible riders -- and it needs to be propagated to
| ebike riders. I don't think it's about having manners,
| really. Also, sound awareness is a myth propagated by Harley
| riders.
| ulnarkressty wrote:
| I find the e-bike that the article talks about (S-pedelec)
| to be the peak of unsafeness for two wheeled vehicles. A
| colleague had one and let me try it - I quickly noped out.
|
| He's doing 40mph in traffic with his bike shorts and a
| flimsy helmet. The power to weight ratio also gives him
| enormous acceleration, so he can jump from the red lights
| in front of everyone. Other drivers often misjudge how
| quickly he can move and he had some close calls like this.
|
| If I were the author I would reconsider using one of these,
| especially with his history of accidents...
| jacquesm wrote:
| I'm doing 40 kph, not mph, big difference there.
|
| Power two weight is very modest, it's only a 350 W motor
| in there for this one.
|
| My history with accidents is simple: I was cycling on a
| low racer recumbent and hit a traffic obstacle at a very
| unfortunate angle. Shit happens. But this bike is about
| 100x times safer than that recumbent. And a lot slower
| too, in spite of being assisted, low racers are very fast
| for unpowered bikes.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| >Also, sound awareness is a myth propagated by Harley
| riders.
|
| This pisses me off so much. I know harley riders that have
| straight pipes and ride around with ear plugs in to keep
| from going deaf. Anyone caught over the legal noise limit
| should have their ride confiscated. It's asshole behavior
| masquerading as 'safety'.
| orforforof wrote:
| The only saving grace is at least they know the word
| 'safety'. I've ridden with such guys too and yes they are
| assholes, but notably they espouse the same defensive
| riding opinions of most riders, and they're still alive.
| That's the key in my opinion, being safe/responsible is
| not the same as being polite, and I think this gets lost
| when people focus only on (e)bikers needing to learn good
| manners and be nice to other road users. (One should do
| both of course.)
| jacquesm wrote:
| 100% agreed, defensive driving is the key, and a good part
| of that is to know when to slow down: when there are other
| cyclists near you.
| bambax wrote:
| > _assume no one (including pedestrians) can see you_
|
| Exactly. I'm in the same situation. I used to ride a
| motorcycle (that I still own but almost never use now) and
| am on an ebike every day.
|
| It's not about "assuming" no on "can" see you: it's that
| nobody does see you, and nobody cares.
|
| It's also the fact that people don't think about your speed
| or your ability to slow down fast -- they only care about
| your general volume. People will be more careful around a
| big parked truck than when faced with a small barrel
| rolling down a hill at full speed.
|
| The way to stay alive is to be able to predict what
| everyone is about to do. I think I have become quite good
| at this, although one is always learning.
| ridaj wrote:
| Yes the problem with ebikes isn't other people being aware
| of the bike's sound, it's the rider being aware of the risk
| to themselves and others. Maybe this is ingrained in the
| motorcycle culture, but it seems like most buyers of ebikes
| I know have never ridden a motorcycle before and were not
| riding bicycles regularly either. They just go "oh this
| makes my commute like that time I biked when I was on
| vacation" and approach safety with a lackadaisical
| attitude. That makes them relatively irresponsible riders
| in my opinion. This problem hopefully fixes itself over
| time as they learn from accidents and an ebike safety
| culture emerges, but for now it's pretty sad.
| jacquesm wrote:
| The bigger danger here in NL are the elderly, who
| suddenly go zooming around at twice the speeds they had
| before they got their e-bikes. Accidents every day like
| that, nasty ones too.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Scooters are a plague (and this bike is classed as a scooter,
| unfortunately, so I'm lumped in with the worst), but a bigger
| danger is mobile phone use by cyclists. That's roughly 1/3rd
| of all the adults and 2/3rds of the teenagers here.
| ryzvonusef wrote:
| you should get a "trail bell", you can turn it on to make a
| constant noise to make people aware, much earlier, that you
| are coming
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRLZ1MMk3mc
| megablast wrote:
| The biggest danger is cars that kill 2 million people every
| year around the world.
|
| Everything else is so tiny as to not count.
| _Understated_ wrote:
| > but a bigger danger is mobile phone use by cyclists.
|
| Or by pedestrians!
|
| My brother curses the number of pedestrians in Glasgow that
| cross the road while looking at their phones... they're by
| far his biggest hazard.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| Roads are way too biased toward cars and away from
| pedestrians, and if this is what it takes to reclaim them
| then I'm all for it.
| pawelwentpawel wrote:
| Screen-zombie pedestrians annoy me as well. So do uneven
| pavements, trash, rocks and any other obstacles that
| appear on my way. If I'm on an electric scooter or a bike
| though it's my responsibility to ensure that I'm not
| riding a silent, heavy and fast vehicle into someone.
| Especially if they can't see me because I'm approaching
| from behind. And to emphasise - there is an entire range
| of pedestrians that might have a disability (mobility
| issues, seeing, hearing etc.) which makes them much more
| vulnerable to accidents.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Absolutely. But spending time on your mobile phone has no
| place in traffic and that has nothing to do with being
| disabled. It's just being grossly disrespectful towards
| others and endangering them and yourself.
| withinboredom wrote:
| Sure it does if you're in a cross walk. As a driver of a
| vehicle, you should be yielding to those as per their
| right of way and paying attention to anyone who might or
| might not take their right of way.
| jacquesm wrote:
| In practice: cyclist head down looking at their mobile
| phone swerving all over the road, two hands holding the
| phone to be able to text using whatsapp or whatever other
| IM they are using _entirely_ lost situational awareness.
| I 've seen enough accidents from this by now to become an
| advocate for substantially increased fines for cell phone
| use in traffic.
| lapetitejort wrote:
| > unicycle riders
|
| You probably mean "one wheel" riders? (As in the electric,
| low profile, self balancing type, not the traditional large
| wheel, seated, fixed axle unicycle) Unless you live around an
| inordinate amount of rude unicyclists. In that case, I must
| see that as it sounds very humorous.
| LightG wrote:
| Nice. What's the 0-60 time?
| jacquesm wrote:
| Infinity, unless you drop it off a mountain or out of an
| airplane :)
|
| To get up to 35 Kph is slow enough that in traffic it irritates
| the hell out of drivers of cars.
| gquiniou wrote:
| I am surprised velomobiles are never mentioned: they are much
| faster than traditional bicycles, have some protection from the
| weather and can be electric assisted too:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velomobile
| utopcell wrote:
| Too close to the ground; that's what "killed" Sinclair's
| version of it.
| Zigurd wrote:
| By and by, enough cars will be equipped with enough driver
| assist that heavy cars that must be crashworthy at relatively
| high speeds will no longer be needed, much in the way active
| safety makes light high speed rail carriages possible. Then
| lightweight vehicles can come in to wider use. Imagine how road
| capacity would be increased by something like a lightweight
| one-seat series hybrid "bike" with an enclosing fairing. A lot
| of communities could be done in vehicles weighing 5-10% the
| weight of a car.
| jacquesm wrote:
| They are super dangerous too. Very low to the ground, nearly
| invisible from the perspective of a motorist and far harder to
| overtake with on narrow bike paths than regular bikes. We have
| a couple of them near here, also a few battery assisted ones.
| The velomobile would be an ideal vehicle if everybody rode one.
| goodpoint wrote:
| > Very low to the ground
|
| That makes recumbent bikes safer (actually the safest) during
| falls. Less height - less kinetic energy.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recumbent_bicycle
|
| > nearly invisible from the perspective of a motorist
|
| Usually solved by bright colors and adding a flag on top.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Yes, that's what I thought. I had fallen many times with
| recumbents and never the slightest problem, because you're
| so close to the ground.
|
| And then my foot hit the ground, ever so briefly. And
| that's a failure mode I never really considered but what
| happened next went pretty quick and irreversible once it
| starts: your foot hits the ground, the bike moves a little
| bit forward, this puts more pressure on your foot, so it
| becomes harder to lift. Within a fraction of a second all
| of your weight will be on that foot, there is no way to
| lift it up because you are still seated behind your foot.
| By the time your foot is under you you will have a couple
| of broken bones and a twisted ankle. If you're lucky.
|
| So no, they are not the safest bikes, they are safe most of
| the time, except for that one nasty little corner case.
|
| I live a theoretical argument as much as the next guy but
| in this particular case my practical experience should
| count for something. Don't ride a low racer, not if you
| like your legs.
| trenning wrote:
| You should post this on endlessSphere if you haven't. Great
| write-up!
| jacquesm wrote:
| I haven't, I didn't even know it existed!
| Obi_Juan_Kenobi wrote:
| You've been hacking and building an e-bike without knowing
| about the largest online forum for exactly that?
| jacquesm wrote:
| Apparently :)
| harshaw wrote:
| Great project. I have a 2018 giant quick e+ that is speed limited
| to 28mph for the US market - in reality gets up to 26-27. In
| general the push bike cycling technology is universal (SRAM,
| shimano, campy, etc kit works everywhere) but for e-bikes there
| are wierd oddities where all the enthusiasm of the international
| DIY community doesn't quite translate to different locations
| because of differences in the battery and motor. I wanted to add
| a supernova headlight to my bike and what seemed like it would
| work was really hard because the US wire harnesses were
| different, voltages were different, etc.
|
| In order to support the weight of the motor and batteries these
| bikes tend to be really beefy and top out at around 50 lbs. Not
| sure how much your extra batteries weigh - but if you exhaust the
| batteries on a 50lb bike you need to make sure you have a super
| granny gear to get you home if you have hills.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Chances of depleting this battery in normal use are nil unless
| you end up driving to Berlin from Amsterdam or so :) It can go
| up to the country borders in every direction.
|
| The added weight is 130 times 50 grams + the weight of the
| enclosure. 170 batteries in there, but the original battery
| already had 40 of those.
|
| Agreed that you don't want to pedal it uphill without the motor
| running that would get old really quick.
| celticninja wrote:
| That's pretty awesome. Amazing range.
| vzaliva wrote:
| Unless you are doing some competitive riding, there is a
| reasonable limit for how long you want to ride per day. As a
| motorcyclist, I know well that distances of 350-600 miles per day
| are possible but taxing on your body. So for regular commute or
| light weekend riding (roundtrip), I would say 4-5 hours of
| battery life is sufficient. Depending on cruising speed, you can
| calculate the distance it will get you. Anything above that is
| just an extra unnecessary battery weight you are carrying.
| jacquesm wrote:
| This is true, modulo that if you charge your battery to the max
| and discharge it all the way that you are murdering it, so some
| spare capacity will very much improve your battery's life span,
| way beyond what you would get out of it otherwise.
| GhettoComputers wrote:
| After reading this, did you ever consider using petrol, gas, oil
| or whatever you call it there for environmental reasons (against
| electric is Lithium battery manufacturing, power loss in AC
| transfer, dirty fuel used to make electricity, and battery
| degrading) weight, energy density, simplicity and would the fuel
| cost much more? It's 2-3x more than in the US would that have
| changed your mind, and would you still find it cheaper to
| maintain? Here's some motors https://boneshaker.bike/motorized-
| bicycle-kits/
|
| Do you see a benefit in a using 2 battery packs, so one can
| charge and the other will be used and swapping them, you can
| mount them so you don't carry them, or switch them since they
| don't rely on high voltage.
|
| For the Bosch is it easy to beat the DRM? If they're at best
| using essentially voltage to turn a brushless motor, it can't be
| that hard to beat can it?
| jacquesm wrote:
| I figured with the kind of mileage that I'm getting out of this
| and the cost of electricity it's a pretty good deal compared to
| firing up my trusty boxer.
|
| I've used two packs, two times 500 Wh but I'd run them dry on
| my regular commute so that's what drove the decision to build
| this bigger pack. There are some advantages, but the Bosch
| system keeps a reserve so you'll end up transporting some idle
| capacity anyway and you're killing the batteries cycle wise.
|
| The DRM I have not - yet - been able to crack. Not for want of
| trying though and I'll definitely have another go at it. The
| CPU is a 32 bit chip that can do all kinds of neat encryption
| stuff so it's not going to be easy. To my knowledge it hasn't
| been hacked yet.
| YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo wrote:
| I love it but I personally would be too scared to ride it with
| that many cells sandwiched between what seems to be just foam
| board.
| jacquesm wrote:
| That's trespa, very strong stuff, weather proof, 6 mm thick.
| YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo wrote:
| Oh... I worked with something really similar but only for
| decoration purposes. I guess it's rigged enough to give the
| construction stability but it's still very prone to
| punctures. Do you think it would withstand a rock chip at
| higher speeds also do you prefer the high mechanical
| stability for a battery package? I don't really know if I
| would prefer it to warp at impact or break like hpl.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Rock chip no problem. Side impact by a car: big problem,
| but then I would have problems anyway, so my solution is to
| drive super defensively. Cities are the risky areas once
| outside of town it's safe to make some speed. The battery
| box is also protected by the frame triangle, which is
| fairly strong.
| YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo wrote:
| Nice the rock chip would have been my main concern
| otherwise defensive driving is probably the best course
| of action. Well done.
| tinbad wrote:
| Awesome project and 500 km range is a cool achievement! Kudos to
| OP for all the effort and research that went into this.
|
| I've run into the same issue that standard battery packs on
| eBikes are just not enough. The problem is not so much needing to
| do super long trips but if you forget to charge one day, you're
| going to be stuck the next. Luckily it's become more common for
| OEMs to offer dual battery setups with the piece of mind of
| extended range but also having a warranty! We own two cargo
| eBikes in the family and both have two Bosch batteries. Range
| varies from 80 to 200 miles depending on level of assist and is
| more than enough for our daily ~20 mile errands.
| blunte wrote:
| This bike has the added benefit of being theft resistant - on the
| basis that it's too heavy for one person to lift. Seriously
| though, what does it weigh?
|
| With a typical sized Dutch man, stopping from full speed is going
| to be a real test of the brakes...
|
| For the same reason I don't like scooters on bike paths, I
| wouldn't want this sharing a bike path with me. When heavy fast
| vehicles and regular bikes collide, the regular biker usually
| suffers more.
| Havoc wrote:
| >stopping from full speed is going to be a real test of the
| brakes...
|
| I'm sure it'll be fine if you stick some high end mountain
| biking disk brakes on there. I suspect you could also use the
| moter to bring it to a sharpish stop.
| jacquesm wrote:
| It's got large diameter hydraulic disc brakes, there clearly
| is a bit of a difference with the added battery weight but it
| stops just fine (still _way_ faster than my 10 speed with rim
| brakes in spite of the much higher bike weight). The fat
| tires (2 1 /4") also really help with that.
| turtlebits wrote:
| Bare weight of the cell is 50g. With 170 cells that is is
| 8.5kg. Still considerably lighter than cargo e-bikes.
| jacquesm wrote:
| And 40 of those cells can be discounted because they were
| also present in the old pack.
| GhettoComputers wrote:
| People steal cars and motorcycles that are heavier. If you
| leave it out and think it's too heavy to be stolen you're
| living in a much friendlier place than me, electronic transport
| isn't even always sought after for personal gain. Scooters are
| routinely thrown in the water around the world.
|
| https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/local/hillsboroughcounty/s...
|
| https://www.electrive.com/2021/06/17/hundreds-of-scooters-la...
|
| https://www.kcrg.com/2021/06/03/teen-arrested-for-throwing-e...
| jacquesm wrote:
| About 35 to 36 Kg. Bike + rider is 105K, which is actually not
| that bad. Your typical parent+bike+two kids is a lot heavier,
| I've had my 'daddy bike' up to well over 130 Kg before one of
| the kids was old enough to ride by themselves.
|
| Full speed to stop is pretty good too, I did a couple of
| e-brakes to see how the change of weight and COG affected the
| bike. Stopping distance is a bit longer, it doesn't kick out
| when braking hard in a corner more than it did before, and -
| not surprisingly ;) - it transfers a bit more weight to the
| front when you hit the brakes hard.
|
| But compared to a scooter it is _much_ lighter and compared to
| a normal e-bike it is only 5 Kg heavier (29 vs 35 Kg).
| nousermane wrote:
| That is impressively light. My opafiets is 30kg.
| jacquesm wrote:
| All aluminum bike really helps, as well as a relatively
| small frame size. But still, the battery makes it
| noticeably heavier.
| 1-more wrote:
| haha I'm more than that on my road bike and I'm stopping with
| rim brakes. This is incredibly impressive work;
| congratulations! Can't wait to see the update. I suspect
| you're going to be just fine on water ingress based on what
| the inside of the package looks like.
| jacquesm wrote:
| The tricky spots are the front top where the cables run
| over the top of the pack, that's a perfect spot for water
| to seep in and at the very bottom where the spray from the
| wheels hits the bottom of the pack. Once it's properly
| sealed that won't be an issue though, but in this
| experimental phase I'm eyeing the skies carefully before a
| ride to make sure I won't end up being drenched. A couple
| of spatters it will definitely survive but a full-on Dutch-
| dunking could well be problematic.
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| We really need a terminology to differentiate better between
| pedal-assist only e-bikes ("pedelec") and electric motorbikes. A
| "bicycle" that can accelerate without the need to pedal at all is
| an electric motorcycle, no matter if you put pedal on it or not.
|
| I see the two as totally different things: I've tried pedal-
| assist e-bike and they're great. But... Although I have nothing
| against motorbikes I'm not cool at all with basically motorbikes
| getting a free pass because they're disguised as bicycles.
|
| BTW this reminds me of the old french "Solex / VeloSolex":
| basically a real engine put on top of the front wheel, and able
| to accelerate by itself without the need to pedal. But the thing
| still had pedals. I used to use one and still have one in a
| garage. But I didn't use it on the bicycle lanes...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A9loSoleX
| smashah wrote:
| Differentiating between pedal assist & throttled e-bike serves
| no great purpose.
|
| There should be no distinction, legally, between a normal
| bicycle and an electric bike of any kind (throttle or
| otherwise).
|
| Personal Electric (micro) Mobility is the answer to many
| problems, let's not add any roadblocks to adoption. Other than
| keeping powers-that-be comfortable and sparing the feelings of
| cycling puritans, the distinction is useless, bordering on
| harmful to the environment.
| krrrh wrote:
| The recent explosion of high speed scooters has been a menace
| since my city recently allowed them and e-bikes on bike paths
| and the local bike rental places purchased whole fleets.
|
| The problem is that tourists and knaves are constantly riding
| them on paths that are marked pedestrian-only (sometimes due
| to unfamiliarity with the path system, though often
| intentionally). Even when they stick to the adjacent bike
| lanes the scooters accelerate and go so much faster than
| bikes they are constantly putting pedestrians and slower
| cyclists in danger. If they stuck to bike lanes on streets it
| wouldn't be so bad, but I worry there will soon be a raft of
| Bernie Goetz style vigilante clotheslining of irresponsible
| riders.
| ralusek wrote:
| > I'm not cool at all with basically motorbikes getting a free
| pass because they're disguised as bicycles
|
| Why? Seems like a pointless distinction in regards to any sort
| of rules. Surely where they're allowed to operate, for example,
| should be based on things like speed and weight, rather than
| "whether or not the operator is moving their legs in a circular
| motion."
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| Read jacquesm's reply to my comment: there are people hacking
| their pedelec so that they accelerate without you pedaling
| and that's illegal. I think it's a good thing it's illegal. I
| do also believe only pedelec are allowed on bike lane in
| Belgium/Brussels.
|
| A bicycle which you can use without using the pedals is, to
| me, not the definition of a bicycle.
|
| > Surely where they're allowed to operate, for example,
| should be based on things like speed and weight, rather than
| "whether or not the operator is moving their legs in a
| circular motion."
|
| speed / weight and acceleration. But I'm still not sure about
| that. Bicycle lanes were made, at first, for people cycling.
| In European cities it's part of an overall move to be
| "greener": what's green about a vehicle with can be used
| without doing any exercise at all? You basically took the ICE
| engine of a motorbike and put instead an electric motor.
|
| KTM (motorbike company) is already in to e-bike game. These
| companies are going to come and game the system as much as
| they can if limits aren't set: they'll otherwise build ultra
| light full-carbon e-bike with crazy fast acceleration and the
| selling point is going to be _" It's a motorbike you can use
| in a bicycle lane"_.
|
| I do honestly think saying: "if you don't need to pedal at
| all, it's not a bicycle and hence cannot use the bicycle
| lanes" (like they're apparently doing in the Netherlands)
| ain't a bad rule.
| jacquesm wrote:
| That and there are fixed maximum ratios between the pedal
| input and motor assist.
| Closi wrote:
| Why does it matter from a safety perspective if the
| locomotion is powered by a motor or a combination of a
| motor plus someone's legs?
|
| (Or if it doesn't matter from a safety perspective,
| what's the practical need to legislate against it?)
| jacquesm wrote:
| It's not the safety perspective that drives the
| legislation, but trying to create meaningful classes of
| vehicles that then can be used to drive safety. The
| classification comes first. And s-pedelecs are a bit of a
| weird in-between thing. From a technical perspective a
| bike, from a speed perspective potentially as fast as a
| scooter (but rarely so in practice), a bit faster than a
| normal bike or e-bike and a lot lighter than a scooter.
| So it's a tricky thing to classify.
|
| In the end the governments decided to limit the power for
| e-bikes, limit their speed and tie it in with pedalling.
| S-pedelecs have all those restrictions but they're a bit
| higher, so you can have more power, go a bit faster but
| you still have to work to get to some speed. On 'takeoff'
| my bike can briefly do 350 Watt bursts but that quickly
| falls off to 150 and at the maximum speed (45 kph) it's
| like driving into a wall if you want to go above, the
| motor cuts out completely and there is considerable drag.
| Closi wrote:
| Why would classification come first? That's entirely
| backwards. Surely we should understand what
| characteristics of a vehicle make it safe or unsafe, and
| then build the classifications around that to legislate
| against.
|
| If both are the same safety, why make one illegal? It
| seems like a law which restricts liberty for no reason
| (other than legislative convenience, or because 'the
| government decided to tie it in with pedalling because
| they decided to').
|
| It seems like the argument is 'bikes with pedals which
| can be powered with a button can never be classified as
| bikes because existing laws say that they are not
| classified as bikes'.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Classification comes first because that's what
| governments need in order to split traffic into different
| sets so they can create an environment that works for
| everybody.
|
| S-pedelecs, and e-bikes are a new development and so fall
| between the cracks. Riding them on the bike paths may
| endanger other cyclists, riding them on the main roads
| endangers the users of the s-pedelecs and e-bikes. There
| isn't really a 'third class' and legislators all over are
| struggling with this classification problem.
|
| Tieing in s-pedelecs with pedalling rather than with
| throttle based systems is a legal hack, but in practice
| the hack works quite well. The only situation where it
| doesn't is when you ride an s-pedelec in city traffic
| where you are forced to ride between the cars, who get
| irritated because you are measurably slower than they
| are. Plenty of towns are re-considering this now and are
| making explicit allowance for s-pedelecs to use the bike
| paths. But there are already so many 45kph scooters that
| break the law that the difference is likely negligible.
| nybble41 wrote:
| > In European cities it's part of an overall move to be
| "greener": what's green about a vehicle with can be used
| without doing any exercise at all?
|
| The "green" movement is about the environment, not
| exercise.
|
| > You basically took the ICE engine of a motorbike and put
| instead an electric motor.
|
| That's the "green" part. ICE is not "green". Electric is.
| ralusek wrote:
| > A bicycle which you can use without using the pedals is,
| to me, not the definition of a bicycle.
|
| My point is what difference does it make? Like I said, if
| you want to cap weight or speed, or maybe acceleration,
| within given areas, fine. But who cares whether or not you
| classify it as a "bicycle." If a person wants to exercise
| on their way to work or get there in a suit without having
| to shower, I don't care.
| jacquesm wrote:
| We do have scooters, it's just a different class of
| vehicle.
| potatolicious wrote:
| This. There's an element of snobbery often in this discussion
| where there's a disdain for people who haven't "worked for"
| the movement they're getting.
|
| Which seems besides the point. The reason you can't ride a
| motorcycle in the bike lane isn't because you haven't worked
| hard enough to deserve it, it's because of the top speeds and
| mass of the vehicles presenting a danger to others in the
| lane. It's the same reason cars present such a danger to
| cyclists - the scale of kinetic energy going around is just
| too high.
|
| I think fast e-bikes are a _technologically_ interesting
| thing, but from a regulatory point of view I 'm much more
| mixed. ~30 kph seems eminently reasonable for bike
| infrastructure, and I'm excited about the ability for that to
| displace car trips - both from a sustainability perspective
| and a road capacity perspective. Much faster than that
| though?
| jimmaswell wrote:
| My ebike cuts out the assist around 32kph (20mph) but I
| apparently hit a max speed of 45kph (28mph) sometimes, so
| even faster than that must be easily achievable on a much
| lighter normal bike. So 30 seems too low for a general
| statement.
| Tostino wrote:
| Yeah that argument for forcing pedaling to me seems like a
| way of gatekeeping to keep something a little more "pure"
| without any actual reason.
| yellow_postit wrote:
| On a cargo bike carrying children in a hilly area the
| throttle is nearly essentially to safely get going from a
| stop and then to have pedaling take over.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| I don't understand this comment. There are tons of non e
| cargo bikes. Are you saying they're unsafe to use? You
| could simply walk the bike if the terrain is too steep.
| Tostino wrote:
| It can be much harder to ride those cargo bikes by
| pedaling and throwing your center of balance around when
| weighed down compared to allowing the motor to accelerate
| you while keeping the bike properly balanced.
| krrrh wrote:
| There's a reason why heavy cargo bikes originated in flat
| places like Christiania, and the Netherlands. Walking a
| Larry vs. Harry Bullit up a steep hill is hard enough
| empty, but with 3 kids and groceries in the bucket I can
| see a lot of people preferring an assist.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Not really, without the pedals it's no longer a bicycle but
| a moped. We have e-mopeds already and there are plenty of
| rules for those.
| Tostino wrote:
| Your views are colored by the laws you have dealt with,
| as are mine. Just because that is the law near you
| doesn't automatically mean that is the ideal way of
| regulating society. It is just what you are used to.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Obviously, I am arguing from the position of legality
| where I live, that would seem logical (as the writer of
| the article). If you live somewhere else and have a
| different legal environment I'd be very interested to
| learn about it but I won't adapt my behavior based on
| that because it simply doesn't apply here.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| They're not asking you to change behavior. The claim was
| that forcing people to pedal is gatekeeping without an
| actual reason, which is separate from legal arguments,
| and saying "the reason is the law" is missing the
| point/circular.
| jodrellblank wrote:
| I just twigged from this thread that "moped" is
| motor+pedal.
|
| Now I'm annoyed that in the UK we use "moped" for Vespa
| style scooters which have no pedals.
|
| (I was already mildly annoyed that we use "scooter" for
| Vespa style vehicles which you sit on and are entirely
| motorised, when it really describes the variant
| skateboard with handlebars you stand on using one foot
| and 'scoot' along using the other foot for propulsion).
| jacquesm wrote:
| Yes, scooter is heavily overloaded. I had that problem
| recently when writing a report and realized that there
| are actually three different classes of vehicle and
| they're all called scooters.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Speaking of gatekeeping...
|
| A lot of people, adults in particular, appear to have an
| aversion to riding bicycles due to their inability to place
| both feet on the ground while seated (and I'm speaking here
| about the standard bicycle geometry, not recumbents, etc.).
|
| It's too bad too because you would love to get more people
| out of large steel cars and into efficient
| e-bikes/scooters.
|
| I wish we could lighten up a bit with regard to requiring
| pedals/pedalling and try saving the planet a little.
| Tostino wrote:
| Absolutely agree, harping on the specific form of the
| vehicle rather than just enforcing reasonable safe speed
| limits for paths that everyone has to follow is
| maddening. I don't care if someone is more comfortable on
| a standup scooter, a pedal bike, a recumbent, or even a
| segway. Just lower the barrier of entry and get more
| people out and not in their cars.
| polote wrote:
| > Although I have nothing against motorbikes I'm not cool at
| all with basically motorbikes getting a free pass because
| they're disguised as bicycles.
|
| A free pass for what ?
|
| You dont need a motor to reach 40kph on a bike, plenty of
| people can do it with only their legs. What we can do is limit
| the speed on bike lanes, but that means we could allow any
| vehicule on it. There is no reason a motorbike couldn't go on a
| bike lane if it goes slower than 20kh as most people on bike
| reach that speed.
|
| It is not because you are on a bike that you have to go on a
| bike lane.
| gtirloni wrote:
| _> What we can do is limit the speed on bike lanes, but that
| means we could allow any vehicule on it._
|
| No, we can't because of momentum. We could never allow a car
| or a heavy motorcycle to drive on pedestrian/bike lines even
| if they are at low speeds.
| uoaei wrote:
| Less momentum than the rapidity with which momentum can
| change (power output vs weight, i.e., energy output).
| [deleted]
| jacquesm wrote:
| Speed limit on bike lanes in the city is 30 kph, outside it
| is 45. So those rules already exist (here, in NL).
| drited wrote:
| What is the max speed of the bike you made jacquesm? I note
| from the start of the article that low speed of
| alternatives was one of your motivations. I saw the range
| stats in the last paragraph but didn't notice speed stats
| (perhaps I missed that?)
| jacquesm wrote:
| 45 kph flat out, if you try to go faster you are fighting
| the motor. But practically you're going to top out at
| about 40 kph on the Bosch system, using a Stromer or a
| Klever s-pedelec you will be able to maintain that 45 kph
| a lot longer. But 38 is plenty for me, it's still a bike
| and the little bit of extra speed does not weigh up
| against the risks.
| koonsolo wrote:
| As a motorcyclist, I would call them e-mopeds ;).
|
| I think that is the best name, since mopeds also have pedals
| that nobody uses.
| fragmede wrote:
| And scooters, electric-scooters, and sit-down electric
| scooters. And electric wheelchairs, and non-electric
| wheelchairs and mobility assist carts with handlebars. We also
| have to delineate between a daydreaming cyclist who's top speed
| is slow, and a hard-core cyclist with a $3000+ bike that can
| hit 40 mph in the right conditions. Those cyclists should be
| banned from using the same paths as the first kind of
| bicyclist, and should be relegated to the same areas as
| 'electric motorcycles'. Because it's really about acceleration
| and top speed, and it matters _zero_ whether the thing has
| pedals or not.
|
| Or put it another way, if my 'electric motorcycle' is slower to
| accelerate and has a slower top speed than you could possibly
| manage on a bicycle, it's really not a 'motorcycle' in any way,
| no matter how many pedals it does or doesn't have.
| TrevorJ wrote:
| Eh, this is just extending the argument into absurdity I
| feel.
| allannienhuis wrote:
| That's a valid and useful rhetorical technique.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
|
| Although it can be applied with a bit much snark sometimes.
| :)
| unethical_ban wrote:
| That's the point, I read the post as satire making fun of
| the top level comment.
|
| "Free pass" for electric motorbikes? What is that person on
| about? Why have meaningless distinctions between pedaling
| or not, when the overriding goal should be "promote bike
| use over vehicle use"?
|
| What societal good, what good to the citizen, is it to
| place burdens on e-bikes that are not pedal assist?
| cbhl wrote:
| I don't know that it is -- electric scooters are
| controversial -- some folks want them on sidewalks; others
| in bike lines; yet others only in mixed traffic with cars.
| ghshephard wrote:
| I didn't see it as absurd at all - there is a huge
| contingent of bicyclists who should _never_ be on a
| sidewalk, while at the same time there are massive numbers
| of casual e-cyclists who should never be riding in traffic.
|
| Ann Arbor recently changed it's laws to reflect that - and
| I think the cyclists who are aware they shouldn't be on
| sidewalks, and the e-cyclists who stick only to the
| sidewalks know who they are.
| stefan_ wrote:
| Sidewalks? You don't seem to have the first clue about
| what you are trying to comment on. The only bikes that
| belong on sidewalks are those ridden by very young kids,
| and indeed that is the law in much of the world.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| No e-biker should be on a sidewalk.
|
| There are informal norms. Cyclists who cycle on sidewalks
| should be relatively new and should make sure to behave
| explicitly with all of the rules of the road (ie. don't
| run a red from the sidewalk as a cyclist, very dangerous.
| if you must, dismount and walk across or wait for the
| pedestrian light). Cyclists on the street are generally
| more experienced and do not have to explicitly follow all
| rules IMO.
| WorldMaker wrote:
| Not just informal norms, in many states formal laws, just
| ones that are hardly ever enforced this century. (Many of
| them on are on the written part of your driving test,
| though people don't take those often enough to remember
| their details.)
|
| For example, Kentucky law requires bicyclists over the
| age of 11 to use the streets. (Prohibits sidewalk usage.)
|
| Washington state law allows sidewalk usage, but also
| requires wider sidewalks than the Kentucky minimum, and
| includes a lot of very specific wording about pedestrian
| right of way on sidewalks (sidewalks are theirs first)
| and mandate being very careful in overtaking pedestrians
| and other cyclists.
| dahfizz wrote:
| If you're piloting a vehicle on the road, you should
| follow all the rules of the road. This is the reason
| people hate cyclists.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| Laws have social interpretation around them - there are
| plenty of road laws I see routinely broken for
| convenience by cars that are effectively unenforced.
|
| "Idaho stops", ie. treating stop signs as yields is both
| enshrined in law in a few different areas and should be
| law in many others.
|
| Idaho stops are perfectly acceptable in my view.
| tshaddox wrote:
| > We also have to delineate between a daydreaming cyclist
| who's top speed is slow, and a hard-core cyclist with a
| $3000+ bike that can hit 40 mph in the right conditions.
|
| Are there not speed limits for bike lanes? Most cars have a
| top speed well above the freeway speed limit too.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Yes, absolutely. 30 kph in town, 45 kph outside of town.
| thrashh wrote:
| Honestly I don't know if more rules is it. I think better
| infrastructure that encourages separation is better.
|
| I live in a bike (and very e-bike heavy) US city and the
| rules don't really get followed too much.
|
| And I don't blame anyone, because while there are
| inconsiderate people, speed comfortability is really
| relative. Some of my friends find just being on a bike scary
| versus my friends who skate through traffic just fine. I
| can't invite them to the same things.
| renlo wrote:
| If you live in NYC like me enforcing the current laws would
| be a good start. The rules aren't followed because there is
| zero enforcement.
| spamizbad wrote:
| I hate to be the bearer of bad news but even a <$1000 road
| bike with drop bars and 25-32mm tires can hit 30-40mph in the
| hands of novice/moderately experienced riders assuming they
| have a decent baseline fitness and either some straight level
| road or a long downhill run. If you've got a 52x12 gear ratio
| and can spin up to a cadence of 90RPM you'll be traveling
| roughly 31mph. Spin up to 110RPM and you're pushing 40mph.
|
| The only difference is the experienced, lycra-clad cyclists
| with expensive bikes just get up to speed faster, maybe with
| less of a tailwind or downward grade. However, unlike their
| speedy novice kin, they (should, in theory) have better bike
| handling skills.
|
| Overall, I think a strategy of banning with people the
| highest cycling skills from bike paths seems like a bad idea.
| Sure, you got weekend warrior dentists with fancy expensive
| bikes but their mediocre fitness level doesn't allow them to
| really extract significant benefit from their high-end
| cycling equipment. Their fancy aerodynamic carbon fiber bikes
| are probably only getting them a few mph over a classic steel
| frame. For more serious enthusiasts and professionals, those
| seconds matter... for everyone else it's just a flex.
| whiteboardr wrote:
| I think there is a big difference in physically working
| towards the speeds you mention and just rotating a grip to
| move (fast).
|
| Having to work for high speeds, even if just rolling down a
| long hill on a "bare" machine, regardless of material or
| price, will create a much deeper mental involvement of what
| you got yourself into.
|
| Thus, unassisted cyclists are (my guess and own experience)
| much more aware of their surroundings, what lies ahead and
| thus alert.
|
| Things obviously can go wrong either way...
| buran77 wrote:
| > a <$1000 road bike with drop bars and 25-32mm tires can
| hit 30-40mph in the hands of novice/moderately experienced
| riders
|
| A novice rider will have a very hard time hitting 65km/h
| without going downhill or a strong back wind, even on a
| light bike. It's a challenge even for trained cyclists. So
| you won't see this on a city's streets but rather on open
| road.
|
| But stopping fast and safe at those speeds is even harder
| than reaching them because you can't take your time to do
| it. A bike that can make it easy to reach them shouldn't
| share a lane with much slower and unpredictable
| participants, like regular lanes on sidewalks.
| samstave wrote:
| As someone who has biked for decades and puts on nearly
| ~1,000 miles per month - August I did ~850 - Sept/oct was
| less due to some rainy days... (All on a 29" x2.1" hard
| tail mtn bike)
|
| But I used to bike from Alameda into SF for nearly a
| decade. I even biked occasionally from Alameda to Menlo
| Park...
|
| That being said, while I really want an E-bike, I am also
| cautious: I have fallen a lot, and I used to get my bikes
| up to 44 was the fastest I ever went, down the long bike
| path along Lexington Reserviour which we used to bike up
| every morning...
|
| Going ~40 on ANY terrain on a mike is dangerous/scary as
| heck.
|
| I've had bikes just literally vanish from beneath me and
| I went sailing through the air.
|
| Never would I want to do that on something that weighs
| more than me....
|
| PLUS - how do you carry Jacques bike up/down stairs to
| transition between trains/levels/whatever...
|
| That wonderful hack looks heavy as heck, but lovely.
| jacquesm wrote:
| It has walk assist if I need to move it uphill while
| walking next to it, I wouldn't want to move it up or down
| a flight of stairs but if that would ever be a
| requirement I'm pretty sure there will be a law mandated
| elevator nearby as well.
| rconti wrote:
| Even at 4.25w/kg I cannot hit 30mph without a tailwind or a
| downhill. I can push MAYBE 26mph, possibly 27. And that's
| going to be at something unsustainable for me, like
| 400-500w. (FTP of 350w).
|
| At threshold power, I'm guessing more like 22-23mph.
|
| And, not to toot my own horn, but that's a pretty damn fit
| experienced cyclist.
| spamizbad wrote:
| Ah, but you should be able to hit it while drafting with
| aero bars.
|
| My point here is that it's not the bike that makes you go
| 40mph - it's the "engine" (the human) and the
| environment. Expensive human-powered bikes aren't going
| to magically turn someone who tops out at 20mph into
| someone doing twice that.
| amluto wrote:
| > We also have to delineate between a daydreaming cyclist
| who's top speed is slow, and a hard-core cyclist with a
| $3000+ bike that can hit 40 mph in the right conditions.
|
| Surely even skilled cyclists should be permitted to use bike
| paths as long as they don't tear by everyone at 40 mph. And
| I'm genuinely a bit unclear as to why no-pedaling-needed
| bikes shouldn't be able to mingle with bikes as long as they
| follow the rules.
| uoaei wrote:
| I see it as a sort of amateurization/tragedy-of-the-commons
| that increases the likelihood of injuries.
|
| As a parallel example, from what I can tell, injuries on
| electric rental scooters haven't really dropped too much,
| they just stopped being news.
| pharmakom wrote:
| A really important factor you didn't mention is weight.
| KE = 0.5 * v * v * m
| leetcrew wrote:
| that equation shows velocity is more important though? a
| small car at 10 mph has about the same KE as a 200 lb
| person going 40 mph. of course KE doesn't tell the whole
| story. of the two, I'd much rather be hit by the car. I
| could run into a brick wall at 10 mph and probably be okay.
| red369 wrote:
| I suppose if you absorbed all of the energy from the car,
| rather than just being pushed back by it, then the damage
| might be more comparable. For example, I think if someone
| was standing against a wall and a car rolled into them at
| 10mpg it might be as terrible as being hit by a 200lb
| cyclist at 40 mph. Of course, I agree that 10 mph seems a
| lot less dangerous - it gives many more options to move
| out of the way, or to spread the impact over time (by
| walking backwards and pushing against the car). Just
| throwing out some thoughts on why the same energy from
| each seems to have such a different destructive force.
| frenchyatwork wrote:
| True, though most collisions aren't head on, and even
| when they are, usually only a fraction of the velocity is
| absorbed because the objects deflect from each other.
| dheera wrote:
| Yes but probability of a crash is probably related to the
| spread in the velocities of various agents.
|
| This is why I often ride my 40 km/h max electric moped on
| bike paths. Cars don't give me enough following distance so
| I'm not risking my life there. I also slow down drastically
| when passing pedal bikers.
| Bootvis wrote:
| If you're exerting yourself you tend to pay attention to
| what's happening around you. I noticed that folks that go
| very fast on their two-wheeled vehicle without too much
| effort get distracted quite easily.
| PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
| I think it may not be the exertion per se, as much as the
| perception that _something_ is working hard to give the
| speed you have.
|
| I have been a very very fast cyclist in the past, and
| when I'm down on my aero bars and doing 40-50kph under my
| own power, I'm very aware that I'm (a) working hard (b)
| going fast. This makes me not want to crash, if only
| because I'd lose all that hard-earned speed.
|
| But I've seen the same effect in cars too. If I drive a
| very quiet and "smooth" vehicle on a very smooth road,
| its way too easy to go substantially beyond the speed
| limit, because I just don't have the perception of "an
| engine working hard to propel things forward". Switch a
| noisy, vibrating vehicle on a rougher road, and I'm much
| more aware of what is going on and will definitely keep
| my speed under control.
|
| I haven't driven a Tesla or similar, so I have no idea
| how their near-silent engine affects this sort of thing.
| On paper, it seems likely to be bad :)
| Torkel wrote:
| Multi-lane bike "highways" would be awesome. What matters
| most (imo) is that all these riders are unprotected, and
| should be kept far apart from cars. If the unprotected,
| single rider, narrow vehicles want do drive at vastly
| different speeds then multiple lanes seems like a good
| solution.
| rnotaro wrote:
| In Montreal, Canada, we have the Reseau Express Velo (REV).
| They are uni-directional bike paths that are 3 meters wide.
| They easily allow 3 cyclists to be side by side.
| jacquesm wrote:
| We have some of these in NL.
| [deleted]
| tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
| I don't think there is a _meaningful_ clear demarcation between
| pedal-assist and electric motorbike. The throttle control just
| looks different.
|
| On good e-bikes I've ridden, the pedaling is basically limited
| to telling the motor to go, no meaningful force involved. Sure,
| you can put "controls motor with button" and "controls motor
| with pedal" into different legal categories, but I doubt there
| is much of a benefit in doing so.
| phreeza wrote:
| The pedaling aspect is also not really what matters, because
| you can in principle reduce the load factor so much that the
| pedals also just become a fancy throttle, no?
| jacquesm wrote:
| No, there is a direct relationship between the power exerted
| and the power the motor will add. There is a nifty torque
| sensor built into the cranks.
| nybble41 wrote:
| You're describing one particular kind of (high-end) e-bike.
| Many perfectly legal, unmodified e-bikes do not have torque
| sensors. If the bike has a cadence sensor, like mine does,
| then it doesn't care about how much torque you're applying
| to the pedals. All it cares about is how fast they're
| turning. And at the higher speeds (around the 20 MPH limit)
| the gearing and small wheel sizes on mine are such that one
| would need to pedal _very_ fast to exert any significant
| pressure on the pedals. A much lower pedaling rate with no
| pressure will still maintain the top speed on level ground.
|
| There is no significant difference between "pedal assist"
| and a hand-operated throttle. It would be really nice if
| the politicians would recognize this and remove the
| meaningless class 1 / class 2 distinction based purely on
| the _location_ of the throttle. (Though to be fair there
| are many more sensible places which already treat them the
| same.)
| jacquesm wrote:
| Those are more than likely 25 Kph limited bikes,
| s-pedelecs are a different class altogether.
| phreeza wrote:
| What I am saying you could hack the power to torque factor
| to be so high you don't really have to exert very much
| force at all.
| jacquesm wrote:
| You can't. These bikes are DRM'd to the hilt and any
| attempt at hacking them will cause the bike to brick
| itself which you can only reset at the dealership. You
| can do that three times and then it's permanent.
|
| The penalties for having such a hack detected on your
| bike - assuming you would get away with it - is
| confiscation. I would strongly advise against such
| tricks.
|
| You can see how much work just changing out the battery
| was. There are plenty of parties selling limiter removers
| or speed boxes but they're all illegal and you are
| uninsured when using such a device. My bike is perfectly
| legal to ride.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| >but they're all illegal and you are uninsured when using
| such a device. My bike is perfectly legal to ride.
|
| Plenty of people 'technically' break the law in small
| ways every day. If your bike looks like a normal bike,
| and you're not doing outlandish speeds, I'm not sure it
| matters whether or not your bike is 'technically legal'.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Right up to the point when you cause and accident, it
| turns out that you are not insured and you are now in
| debt for the rest of your life. This is not a small
| matter.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| How does someone on a bike 'cause an accident'? How
| exactly is a cop going to know that you've modified your
| bike? They aren't tour de france officials. I'd be fine
| taking my chances. You seem to have a very legalistic
| outlook that doesn't translate to reality.
| jacquesm wrote:
| The police here is pretty good at accident mechanics, the
| insurance will insist and if your bike has been modded
| you are in pretty hot water.
|
| My 'legalistic outlook' is mostly informed by the local
| news.
|
| But don't take my word for it, have a read:
|
| https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&q=opgevoerde+e-b
| ike...
| thinkmassive wrote:
| > The penalties for having such a hack detected on your
| bike ... is confiscation
|
| In what jurisdiction?
|
| Edit: just realized it's your article and you're in NL.
| Confiscation might be an issue there but it's not
| universal by any stretch.
| jacquesm wrote:
| It's treated the same way as a souped up scooter would
| be. Get caught and you are more than likely to lose it.
| The good news is that you can then try to buy it back at
| government auction ;)
| 0des wrote:
| > You can't. These bikes are DRM'd to the hilt and any
| attempt at hacking them will cause the bike to brick
| itself
|
| This does not match reality at all. E-bikes are some of
| the most modify-able and hackable devices out there. Most
| of the parts are interchangeable, and a decent portion of
| these bikes are assembled piece by piece. I can change
| the acceleration profile of mine at will, via bluetooth.
| Amperage limits, battery codes, everything. I have used
| many devices and parts and kits, and have never even once
| seen DRM present.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Oh, sure, I'm making it all up. I just spent two months
| picking apart the Bosch e-bike system, I think by now I
| know what I'm talking about but feel free to prove me
| wrong and show me how you're able to get your battery to
| talk to a Bosch controller without using a Bosch BMS.
|
| Hint: you won't be able to, the key is embedded in an NXP
| processor that has it's fuses blown (both sides,
| controller and battery) and any kind of hacking you want
| to do will have to be at the sensor level and even there
| I would advise you to use an older version of the
| firmware because the newer ones are very good at
| detecting such hacks.
| bob29 wrote:
| You're in the realm of replacing original parts with the
| new battery mod. Why not replace the Bosch motor
| controller with any available motor controller that lets
| you configure your throttle inputs however you want?
| jacquesm wrote:
| Because that would invalidate the type approval and that
| in turn would invalidate my insurance.
| llampx wrote:
| I think you both can be correct. The more expensive
| e-bikes as sold in the EU are DRM'd to the hilt, whereas
| cheaper bikes sold elsewhere or assembled from kits won't
| have any restrictions. On reddit/r/ebikes you can see
| some crazy builds that would get you a hefty fine in most
| of Europe.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I did write 'these bikes', as in Bosch based e-bikes,
| specifically s-pedelecs. It is pretty obvious I'm only
| talking about this kind of bike, not about 'all bikes out
| there including those in other countries and cobbled
| together from parts'.
| freshpots wrote:
| No, this became about you, personally. It is unfortunate
| that you are unaware of that.
| nybble41 wrote:
| No one else was taking specifically about Bosch systems
| (edit: _in the comments, not the article_ ) until you
| came along, and your original reply didn't mention them
| by name. There are lots of e-bikes out there, including
| pure "pedelecs" with no hand-operated throttle, which do
| not use Bosch parts and do not have torque sensors. They
| assist when the pedals are moving, not when you're
| applying pressure.
| jacquesm wrote:
| The article is mine. And that's the context in which you
| can read my comments.
| nybble41 wrote:
| I realize the article is yours, but you responded as if
| you were talking about _all_ pedal-assist electric bikes
| (as the comment you replied to undoubtedly was), not just
| your particular model.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Read again: the claim is that these bikes can be hacked.
| Believe me I tried and reverse engineering is not
| something that I have a moral block against or so.
|
| Every s-pedelec that I'm aware of is legal to buy and
| drive on the roads here is locked down. The Bosch system
| is the one that I now have extensive experience with and
| the handshake between the controller, the motor and then
| battery is of a complexity level that I have not managed
| to crack it despite a serious effort in that direction.
| Time will tell if I will eventually manage to run my own
| firmware but right now I'm not hopeful that that will
| ever happen (I'd love to update the range computation
| algorithm).
|
| Regular e-bikes (the 25 kph version) are hacked with
| abandon but even then you are no longer legal (here, in
| NL and many other european countries). The Bosch system
| (which has substantial market share in that domain) can
| be hacked but only at the sensor level, and it's clever
| enough that it tries to detect such trickery and if it
| does it will brick itself. The factory diagnostic
| software contains a field for 'cheat detected' and it's
| pretty sensitive (to the point that sometimes bikes that
| have not been modified get flagged).
|
| If you get a supermarket Bafang or other bike, especially
| older models then you are likely going to be able to hack
| it, but there too you won't find any s-pedelecs.
|
| The few brands that sell them are all pretty good at
| locking down their stuff. Build a bike from parts and
| it's a different story, but then you won't get a license
| plate, type approval or insurance and your bike won't be
| legal to drive on the roads.
| nybble41 wrote:
| > Read again: the claim is that these bikes can be
| hacked.
|
| "These bikes" as in pedelecs in general. Not just ones
| with Bosch parts, and not just the ones that are
| available legally as regular "pedelecs" rather than
| "s-pedelecs" in NL or the EU. In most cases you wouldn't
| even need to hack them; this is how they work from the
| store.
| horsawlarway wrote:
| I mean... I'm not on a Bosch E-Bike?
| bob29 wrote:
| Another clueless American ebiker question about Europeon
| law. Is the article's bike legal? Individual can self
| build a high energy battery with parts and tools from
| online sellers putting an alibaba balance charger in
| parallel with the original BMS, no external testing
| review or inspection. And the authorities/insurance don't
| care about this customization vs the factory model they
| presumably inspected before certifying.
|
| Alternatively if you software configure a motor
| controller so that it sends motor current from a throttle
| instead of a torque sensor in the pedals, you'll be
| busted?
| lukevi wrote:
| I've found this to be correct on most every e-bike I have
| rented. You can "feather pedal", just spinning the cranks
| without engaging any energy, and the e-bike will send power
| to "assist".
| jacquesm wrote:
| I'll try that and see what my top speed is.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| > A "bicycle" that can accelerate without the need to pedal at
| all is an electric motorcycle, no matter if you put pedal on it
| or not.
|
| That sounds very American. Don't we have Vespa scooters and
| mopeds in the USA as well? There are plenty of bike formats
| between bicycle and motorbikes.
|
| In China most e-bikes aren't pedal assists and no one would
| ever claim they were car road worthy vehicles, they got bike
| lanes or the side of the road, and are not allowed on the ring
| road. American bike lanes seems to be recreational, whereas in
| other countries that are oriented much more at daily life and
| more heavily used.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| I would not feel comfortable bicycling in Chinese "bike
| lanes", they are basically just separate lanes for the
| mopeds.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| In China, the rich drive while the poor make do with
| e-bikes. Yes, you wouldn't feel comfortable in those lanes,
| but people still need to live.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| Oh I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing at all -
| just that it is definitely not the case that you can
| comfortably comingle normal bikes with those lanes.
| abakker wrote:
| If its got a motor and it looks like a bike...
|
| An an American, I agree with your assessment. to me, Vespas
| and Mopeds are motorbikes. they burn gas.
|
| Pedal assist ebikes are a new category to me, and I don't
| think any of the current rules make much sense for that.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Pedal assists were the original e bikes back in the early
| 2000s. But the Chinese found that just making throttle only
| e bikes was more economical, so that's what came to
| dominate the biking ways in China (for people there, biking
| is more about practicalities and economy than recreation).
|
| I'm sure most American heads would explode if they ever saw
| how moped, scooter, small motorbike traffic mixed with cars
| in Southeast Asia.
| kube-system wrote:
| Vespa style scooters are motorcycles in many US states, but
| there are exceptions.
|
| Mopeds with engines under 50cc and that have pedals are often
| treated differently than motorcycles but some states still
| require licensing and registration similar to a motorcycle.
| twoslide wrote:
| That's not the law in the UK. A throttle electric bike is still
| an electric bike, as long as it has pedals that can propel it:
|
| https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules
| 0des wrote:
| The laws where I live do not see it this way. If it has pedals,
| and is under 750 watts, then it is an e-bike. This includes the
| ability to use a mid-drive motor that supplies 750 watts but
| makes full use of the bicycle's gearing system.
| qq4 wrote:
| They're simply called mopeds in my book. We don't call electric
| cars, e-cars.
| groone wrote:
| In my opinion the throttled e-bikes should be treated as
| bicycles as long as they have pedals and are under 25kg and
| 250W power.
|
| That would legalize my e-bike that I have used for 14000km in
| city saving a lot of carbon emissions and not sacrificing much
| as I can park it in bicycle stand.
|
| Of course going faster than 20-25km/h in pedestrian traffic
| (where bicycles are allowed) is extremely dangerous. But from
| my experience going fast in car traffic 35-40 km/h (where
| bicycles are allowed) is safer than chugging along slowly as
| cars don't have a need for overtaking between traffic lights.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Is that with or without the weight of the battery ;)
| groone wrote:
| With the battery. Normal bicycles can be as light as 8 kg
| when using carbon frame. Should be able to fit your battery
| in a 25kg bike if trying very hard.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Not this battery :) Anyway, agreed, 25 kg would be a nice
| upper limit to have. The bike I have weighs in at 29 kg
| with the original battery, now it is somewhere between 35
| and 36.
| 5faulker wrote:
| E-bike is basically the smaller version of electric cars, whose
| sustainability depends on how we power our energy (not that
| they have a circular manufacturing process of course).
| jacquesm wrote:
| I come across modern Solexes with regularity on the bike lanes
| here, never seen one in traffic.
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| And they're legal there? With the ICE engine running?
| jacquesm wrote:
| Yep. Speed limited to 26 kph.
| disambiguation wrote:
| Surely top speed matters more than pedaling?
|
| No one argues that people in electric wheel chairs are really
| driving ATV quads.
| pa7ch wrote:
| I never understood while we regulate on the mechanism to engage
| the motor instead of top speed or max power.
| masklinn wrote:
| Pedelecs are regulated on all three: maximum continuous power
| of 250W, assistance only from 6km/h, top assisted speed of
| 25km/h.
|
| The point of pedelec regulations (in europe anyway) is to be
| a baseline: anything which satisfies the pedelec specs must
| be treated as a bicycle by all member states, so if you have
| a pedelec you know that it will be usable as a bike
| throughput the union. Member states can go beyond if they
| want to.
| Closi wrote:
| Agreed, 70mph but you have to pedal to keep the bike going =
| e-bike (although an illegal one)...
|
| 15mph and has a throttle = electric motorbike (and also
| illegal)...
|
| But make that 15mph illegal electric motorbike 10mph faster
| and add extra hardware so users have to waggle their feet
| around in a circle to trigger the motors... SUDDENLY LEGAL!
|
| I highly doubt there are any safety benefits from pedalling -
| it seems like an arbitrary limit.
| masklinn wrote:
| > it seems like an arbitrary limit.
|
| Of course it is, all limits are arbitrary, even if
| informed. Lawmakers probably picked limits which would be
| reasonably achievable by average healthy humans over long
| distances.
| Closi wrote:
| > all limits are arbitrary
|
| I should have really said purposeless!
|
| Usually limits have a purpose - for instance limiting the
| speed of cars by law is because of accident reduction.
|
| Unless the argument is that pedalling makes it safer, it
| seems to be a limit for no particular reason.
| Closi wrote:
| > I see the two as totally different things: I've tried pedal-
| assist e-bike and they're great. But... Although I have nothing
| against motorbikes I'm not cool at all with basically
| motorbikes getting a free pass because they're disguised as
| bicycles.
|
| Eh, it depends if you see pedal assistance being the defining
| difference between a bike and a motorbike.
|
| From a safety perspective, speed may be a better
| differentiator.
| wpietri wrote:
| Speed (or better, momentum) is important. But pedal
| assistance is definitely material to me. Switching from
| pedal-assist to throttle-controlled changes the
| proportionality between impulse and real-world results.
|
| As a kid my first response to pretty much anything with a
| dial was to turn it up all the way and see what happened.
| That's a behavior I saw quite a bit during the brief plague
| of VC-funded scooters: novices at 100% motor output rocketing
| down sidewalks, etc. That's much less likely to happen it
| they have to pedal hard to get the top speed.
| dncornholio wrote:
| E bikes also have a dial, all it does is it limits the
| speed when it stops accelerating. You can dial the bike all
| the way up, peddle but not apply any force and still
| accelerate to top speed.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Where I live that would be illegal for an e-bike, that
| vehicle would be classified as an e-scooter.
| dncornholio wrote:
| Doesn't any Batavus E-Bike does this? That's were I got
| my (limited) experience from.
| jacquesm wrote:
| That depends on what you mean by 'dial it up', do you
| mean a throttle? If so then that's illegal. If it is just
| a 25 kph bike then you can feather the pedals and it will
| go up to 15 or so and above that you'll have to work for
| it.
| dncornholio wrote:
| 25 kph bike, has a setting for power that has 4 stages
| and an 5th stage called boost. Would go all the way to 25
| with just feathering
| jacquesm wrote:
| Neat, I'll have to try that and see what happens, we have
| one ordinary e-bike here with a Bosch system as well.
| space_fountain wrote:
| I think something like average real world speed and weight
| are the two important metrics. Maybe this is the intuition
| with petal assist vs throttle controlled e-bikes. I do sort
| of think it should take some work to get a bike up to it's
| top speed so that riders don't just cruise at that speed.
| jacquesm wrote:
| A typical scooter will blow right by my bike, no matter how
| hard I work at it. Anything over 40 kph is very intense, 36
| to 38 is doable over the longer term traffic permitting.
| aaomidi wrote:
| > so that riders don't just cruise at that speed.
|
| Do you actually ride bikes on roads? This is there because
| if you're going slow on an actual road you're more likely
| to get killed because of a car hitting you.
|
| I'm honestly exhausted at this FUD when it's actively
| fucking with my life as a bike rider on a main road. Even
| Netherlands allows fully motorized vehicles that are small
| on their bike paths.
|
| Stop thinking of this as a "free pass" and more of "what's
| actually the safest for bikers and pedestrians.
| space_fountain wrote:
| I didn't mean to cause quite as much of a controversy as
| it seems I have. I do actually ride a standard, non
| e-bike on SF streets, admittedly only somewhat timidly
| and in places with low speed limits and or good bike
| infrastructure. It just strikes me that if you want a
| machine with a throttle, and that can operate at road
| speeds we have that. It's a moped. If you want something
| that can operate in close quarters on shared paths with
| humans we also have that, but it is scary and potentially
| dangerous being overtaken at speed on a shared path by a
| heavy machine with wide tires traveling at speed when
| you're walking on a path.
|
| What both riders and pedestrians need is better car free
| infrastructure so we can stop it with the biking means
| going fast business. An ebike capped at something like
| the top speed of a human is a very different beast than a
| normal bike even if their top speeds are the same because
| the ebike is much more likely to actually be at those
| speeds at any point in time.
| et-al wrote:
| The OP, jacquesm, just mentioned throttle-only ebikes are
| not legal in the Netherlands.
|
| Anyone who's comparing ebike speeds to rider speeds: most
| people new to riding bikes cannot sustain riding at 30kph
| (18.5mph) for probably more than 5 minutes, less if
| there's any gradual elevation. As such, bikes are "safe"
| because there's an inherent speed limiter. You pedal
| really fast, go fast, then you get tired and chill out.
|
| By having a throttle-only mode, the rider never tires and
| will just want to go fast all. the. time.
|
| > _Stop thinking of this as a "free pass" and more of
| "what's actually the safest for bikers and pedestrians._
|
| What's safest for bikers and pedestrians on multi-use
| paths (MUP) would be if ebikes actually followed the
| Class 1 rules and were limited to 32kph/20mph on these
| paths. (imo, 20mph is already pretty darn fast.) If folks
| want to go faster, then do it on the street. If you want
| to rip the throttle wide open, don't do it where a child
| is learning how to ride their bike or where people are
| just enjoying a leisurely stroll.
| Closi wrote:
| > You pedal really fast, go fast, then you get tired and
| chill out.
|
| Is this really true? When I was in France using the Uber
| bikes to get around I could get up to top speed using
| almost no effort on the pedals and never found myself
| getting tired. They really require almost no effort to
| get up to top speed.
|
| Maybe it sounds like the solution is that a throttle
| should only take you up to a lower speed though if this
| is the problem? Like pushing a button can take you to 15
| but waggling your feet can take you to 25?
| et-al wrote:
| A lower speed for throttle-only sounds like a good
| solution!
|
| To clarify, my original post was about non-electric
| bicycles, but my experience with pedal-assist ebikes
| [Jump (RIP) and Citibike/Baywheels] was that they were
| noticeably heavy and after a few blocks of pedaling
| really hard, I'd tire out and slow down. Perhaps you're
| gifted with a very high vo2max?
| jacquesm wrote:
| > If folks want to go faster, then do it on the street.
| If you want to rip the throttle wide open, don't do it
| where a child is learning how to ride their bike or where
| people are just enjoying a leisurely stroll
|
| Agreed, but this is also leading to problems: people on
| racing bikes, especially in groups that occupy the whole
| width of the bike path.
|
| In general the problem is much simpler: people should
| treat the roads like a commons and adapt to the slowest
| present user. That's the safest way, and if that means
| you'll be a little later at your destination then maybe
| you should have left a little earlier. And on a racing
| bike you are no better than any other cyclist, ditto for
| e-bikes and s-pedelecs. It's a shared resource and a bit
| of common sense and respect for each other goes a long
| way.
| et-al wrote:
| > _and if that means you 'll be a little later at your
| destination then maybe you should have left a little
| earlier._
|
| Oh gosh, I wish this was the case, but the past two years
| of anti-masking / anti-vaccinations have clearly
| illustrated that there is no common good in Modern
| America.
| rjzzleep wrote:
| In the US a lot of places don't have sidewalks or bike
| lanes and you're encouraged to cycle in the middle of a
| road lane so that you don't get killed when a driver hits
| you at full speed from the side. Also, you're legally
| entitled to a lane.
|
| In most other places that don't have dedicated bike lanes
| drive on the side of the road, same places scooters
| normally drive.
| globular-toast wrote:
| > From a safety perspective, speed may be a better
| differentiator.
|
| Or perhaps momentum, which is far higher in motorised
| vehicles.
| shadowoflight wrote:
| While I agree with this, there are the caveats that both
| light electric bicycles and heavy analog bicycles exist,
| and that in many cases the additional mass of the motor and
| battery may not contribute much to the overall momentum
| once the mass of cyclist and cargo are factored in.
|
| Note: I commuted by electric bicycle before I switched to
| working remote, and I have to say that riding a vehicle
| that tops out at ~30mph when you're slamming the throttle
| _and_ pedaling as hard as you can on a road with cars and
| trucks going 45mph (or faster) is a harrowing experience.
| The few miles where I rode on bicycle paths, though, I
| capped my speed at 15-20mph (around what a decent cyclist
| would do) and slowed to 5-10mph when I was approaching foot
| traffic or other cyclists - and nobody ever batted an eye
| (except a few people who wanted to know where they could
| get one, heh).
| mtreis86 wrote:
| I see it more as a matter of power produced, I'd probably use
| 1hp or 750w brushless or something thereabouts as the line to
| draw. With most pedal ebikes you go faster by pedaling anyways.
| comeonseriously wrote:
| Moped?
| 2dvisio wrote:
| This one is my first sight of a "bicycle with engine" ever
| (sorry article is in Italian). It was used in the movie "Bread
| love and dreams".
|
| https://www.cronachemaceratesi.it/2017/04/18/il-museo-del-si...
| jacquesm wrote:
| That's a beauty.
| bambax wrote:
| > _A "bicycle" that can accelerate without the need to pedal at
| all is an electric motorcycle_
|
| Most pedal-assist-only ebikes can run without you pedaling (and
| without a throttle either). You just need to pedal fast at
| first, and then take your feet off the pedals. (You can rest
| them at the center of the frame for example.)
|
| Usually, if there is some friction in the system (but not too
| much) the pedals will keep on turning, making the bike think
| actual pedaling is going on. And then the system is self-
| sustaining (battery permitting, of course).
|
| It's quite funny to do; not very practical, or elegant, but
| fun.
| davidw wrote:
| > I'm not cool at all with basically motorbikes getting a free
| pass because they're disguised as bicycles.
|
| As long as they'r not causing problems for other cyclists,
| they're still a big win in terms of transportation: way less
| carbon usage and occupies less space.
| [deleted]
| mikestew wrote:
| _As long as they 'r not causing problems for other cyclists_
|
| And if a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump its ass when it
| hops. "Other cyclists"? They're not cyclists, they're
| motorcycle riders, for starters. Now any jackass can zoom
| down the bike path at 25-30mph, but yeah, as long as that
| doesn't cause problems...
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| Details like that certainly need to be worked out but such
| criticisms are usually made in a way that ignores the
| bigger picture.
|
| Internal combustion engines contribute substantially to
| pollution and human-caused climate change. Motor vehicle
| accidents maim and kill lots of people every year yet fans
| of that form of transportation hand wave it off as
| irrelevant.
|
| We don't have to speed blindly into the future on our
| current vector. We can change course. It will take work and
| creative solutions.
|
| Not to say such concerns shouldn't be brought up but they
| shouldn't be brought up in a manner that sounds entirely
| dismissive of a new solution with a lot of promise.
| Ideally, it gets brought up in a more constructive fashion
| overall that is more conducive to meaningful engagement and
| less prone to simply making people mad or defensive.
| koonsolo wrote:
| In Belgium we have pedelecs (max 25kmh) and speed pedelecs
| (max 45kmh). Pedelecs are catagorized as bicycles, and
| speed pedelecs as scooters, which require a license plate
| and all other stuff, including their proper place on the
| road.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| In California it's 32kph (class 1 with pedal, class 2
| with throttle) and 45 kph (class 3, pedal assist only)
|
| Class 1 and 2 are currently allowed on all paved paths
| that bicycles are allowed on.
|
| Class 3 does not require a license, may use the lanes on
| roads for bicycles, but not walk/bike paths. You also
| must be 16 or older to operate one.
|
| Enforcement is currently nonexistent where I live. I
| regularly see people with ostensibly class 2 e-bikes
| going 50kph, having modified the motor controller.
| tshaddox wrote:
| What's the difference between that claim and the claim "if
| cars which can go 120mph are legally considered cars then
| every jackass can zoom down the highway at 120mph"? The
| difference, of course, is that highways have speed limits.
| dylan604 wrote:
| You realize it is not hard for a cyclist to hit 25-30mph
| without motor assist, right?
| jacquesm wrote:
| For 10 minutes tops or when falling down an embankment,
| sure.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| In short bursts or downhill sure? Consistently in a
| commute? No, that is definitely atypical.
|
| Do you ride bikes or mostly just e-bike?
| dylan604 wrote:
| I don't have a wardrobe in spandex. I ride bicycles for
| fun and commuting, not sport. Only time I rode a bike for
| any kind of fitness was long long ago in offseason for
| running sports. My pedal bike is a beach cruiser and has
| 3 gears on it. Not getting competitive with that, and
| have actually been told to get out of the bike lane in
| spandex wearing asshats.
| mikestew wrote:
| At one time I was a Cat 1 (last stop before pro) bicycle
| racer. Races would typically spend hours at 25mph, so I
| have a pretty good idea of how hard it is. 30mph on flat
| ground, unassisted, for any non-trivial length of time?
| Yeah, damned hard even if you're in shape (and impossible
| if you're not). 25mph by yourself? It might be "not
| hard...to hit" 25mph, but to sustain that speed is going
| to be nearly impossible for the ones I see zooming by on
| their electric motorcycles. And it's going to be tough
| workout even for an in-shape cyclist. As another
| commenter points out, that's over 300 watts. If you can
| do that for your hour ride to work, go get a race
| license, you'll do well.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Exactly. The kind of stuff thrown around in this thread
| borders on the unbelievable or we have a couple of pro
| riders here that I wasn't previously aware of. I think I
| know a couple of _really_ strong cyclists (notably, my
| brother but also others) and in spite of my injury I 'm
| no slouch and am rarely overtaken on a regular racer but
| if I'm to believe this thread then I really should be
| checking my bike if something is dragging or not ;)
| et-al wrote:
| I'd argue 25-30mph is not an easy cruising speed for most
| bike commuters. Unless I'm on the wrong forum and
| everyone here races Cat 1/2 in their spare time.
| dylan604 wrote:
| I'm no competitive cyclist, and in pedal assit mode on my
| eBike, the motor stops being because I'm pedaling at
| 20mph on my own. My eBike is also a big heavy bike, so
| from where I'm pedaling, I'd assume others can do the
| same on a better bike. <shrugs>
| stefan_ wrote:
| Power required increases with the square of the speed
| being primarily a function of wind resistance at higher
| speeds. Your motor shutting off cause you hit 20mph on a
| slight decline might give you the wrong impression.
|
| Maintaining 25mph requires in excess of 300 watts. Some
| 90% of the population won't be able to produce that for a
| mere minute.
| tapvt wrote:
| I worry more about the added mass of the e-bikes in the
| case of a collision with a pedestrian, another cyclist, or
| a traditional motor vehicle. Potential speeds are
| relatively the same.
|
| I own and frequently ride e-bike, and am an advocate. That
| being said, operating one should be done responsibly.
|
| Perhaps your comment could inspire some useful discourse if
| it were worded less negatively?
| mdp2021 wrote:
| You are strongly suggesting it yourself, that if not for
| the speed the difference would be negligible.
|
| The other factor dividing the two realms in practice is
| control: in a bicycle the speed is directly a function of
| leg activity: does the "legs independent" motor-bicycle
| offer the basically same degree of control?
| dylan604 wrote:
| In pedal assist mode, the motor stops when you stop
| pedaling. So it is the same concept. In full throttle
| only control, obviously it is not even the same.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > As long as they'r not causing problems for other cyclists,
|
| They cause problems. Maybe not every e-motorcycle rider, but
| most of them take full advantage of the power to out-
| accelerate other bikers and double the top speed of everyone
| around them.
|
| Bike paths were design with typical cyclist speeds in mind.
| It's not uncommon to see a young kid flying down our local
| bike paths at 40mph or more on a modded e-bike, forcing all
| of the pedestrian and other cyclists to get out of the way as
| fast as possible. Worse, two e-bikers flying toward each
| other at 40mph in opposite directions is the same as one of
| them crashing at 80mph. Those speeds aren't really
| appropriate for bike paths, yet here we are.
|
| I frequently run into young e-bikers or e-motorcycle riders
| on my local trails who are _flying_ at unexpectedly high
| speeds. They 're also tearing up the trails at a rate much
| faster than normal bikes because the rider has less control
| over wheelspin and is more prone to throttle out of corners
| than someone with a direct connection to the drivetrain.
|
| I was a fan of e-bikes when they first came out, but the
| current incarnation of e-bikers and e-motorcyclists is quite
| bad in the real world. Again, not _every_ e-biker, but many
| of the most prolific e-bike riders on my local trails are the
| same ones running modified e-bikes with too much power and
| manual throttles.
| davidw wrote:
| Trails are a different matter, and I'm more skeptical of
| the really fast ones there. For getting around town, I
| think treating them advantageously, on the other hand,
| makes some sense, because of the reasons I cited above.
| dylan604 wrote:
| >but most of them take full advantage of the power to out-
| accelerate other bikers and double the top speed of
| everyone around them.
|
| The full throttle mode of a eBike is limited to 20mph
| (specifically in the US). I have one, and even when in full
| assist mode have been passed by dayglo spandex wearing
| bikers like I was sitting still.
| tshaddox wrote:
| > They cause problems.
|
| Okay, but if they cause problems then that's already...a
| problem.
| jacquesm wrote:
| E-bikes should stay off trails. And in NL it is forbidden
| to use e-bikes on paths marked cyclists only, which is all
| of the scenic routes (the difference is the rectangular
| 'fietspad' sign versus the iconic blue one).
| uoaei wrote:
| E-bikes on singletrack are incredibly destructive. So are
| horses, believe it or not. The analog MTBers I know take
| very good care of their trails.
| groone wrote:
| two e-bikers flying toward each other at 40mph in opposite
| directions is the same as one of them crashing at 80mph
|
| - only if one of them weighs infinitely more than the
| other.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| crashing into the other* at 80 mph.
| mynameisash wrote:
| > Maybe not every e-motorcycle rider
|
| I'm not sure if people are using these terms colloquially
| or if they are codified in law or generally accepted, so I
| may be making some false assumptions here: as an ICE
| motorcycle rider, using the term 'e-motorcycle' to refer to
| what is effectively a no-pedal bicycle dramatically
| overstates the capabilities and gives a false impression of
| what such a vehicle/device is.
|
| While some no-pedal electric bikes probably _can_ move at a
| decent clip, I have to imagine that they 're much closer to
| pedal bike than motorcycle performance.
| maz- wrote:
| Not sure if you've heard of the Sur Ron or the Cake bikes
| but they're RAPID. I have a modified Sur Ron and it's way
| closer in performance terms to my Husky 701 than an e-mtb
| or similar (peak power to weight ratio of about
| 0.3hp/kg).
|
| People put pedal kits on them to try and hide the fact
| it's basically a super light motorbike but in my
| experience it's not really suitable for riding on bike
| paths or trails.
|
| Devices like in the OP are much more of a grey area as
| it's basically impossible to tell their power output /
| weight on an individual basis...
| Sn0wCoder wrote:
| Not sure where you are located but they already do have this. I
| have a class one pedal assist which cuts out at 20 mph. Allowed
| on most Mnt bike trails and to do 20 for any amount of distance
| requires substantial effort. I get passed on the paved bike
| trails all the time by road bikes with way more gears. Then
| class 2 which has a throttle and can go 30ish. Then class 3
| with a throttle and speed is essentially whatever you can do. 2
| and 3 are not allowed on any Mnt bike trails and depending on
| city, county, are crazy to ride on the paved bike trails, not
| legal, but do see every now and then. Most people that own them
| respect the rule.
| twic wrote:
| The reality is that there is no useful bright-line rule to
| distinguish between bicycles and motorbikes. Historically, the
| two have been very distinct, so we haven't needed one. Now, we
| are starting to see more of the space between the extremes be
| explored.
|
| We do absolutely need good laws and conventions here, for
| safety and fairness. But i don't think basing them on a
| classification is the way to write them.
| foxfluff wrote:
| It used to be simple.. if it has a motor and pedals, it's a
| moped. But yeah, whatever you call it doesn't solve the
| regulation problem.
| KingMachiavelli wrote:
| Right, but there's a large question at least in the US as to
| what & who the bike lanes and infrastructure are for. There
| are commuters who travel via bike, casual bikers, and then
| there are also extreme bicyclists that compete.
|
| There are bike lanes that are on normal streets and then
| there are bike paths that are often shared with pedestrians.
|
| I think there is a solid case that bike lanes adjacent to
| streets are for commuters. The main argument is that the
| entire argument for installing bike lanes was to provide an
| alternative to driving.
|
| The bike paths are a bit different. A lot of places in the US
| will have paths that ban anything with a 'motor'. In the past
| this just meant that motorcycles including small [sic]
| _mopeds_ were banned as well. However, in recent years it isn
| 't unusual for someone to use these paths wile riding a
| e-bike or e-scooter. IMO the main reason for banning motors
| was that those vehicles were loud and larger than a
| bike/scooter.
|
| I think that since it's practical to use a e-bike/e-scooter
| at the normal non-assisted speeds the proper solution is to
| just have speed limits in places to protect pedestrians and
| other bikers.
|
| A bike lane far from a city center could have the same speed
| limit as the road since the it's going to be mostly commuters
| using it. A bike lane closer to a university campus might
| have a speed of 15 or 20mph since those lanes will have a lot
| more traffic and a greater mixture of e-bikes and regular
| bikes.
|
| A bike path that connects the bike lane to the bike parking
| area would be like 15mph. A shared sidewalk/path with
| pedestrians might have a max speed of <10mph.
|
| I think the only group that might loose out is the pure-
| bicyclists that are used to using the bike lanes more like a
| gym so having to share the bike lanes with e-bikes could be
| an issue. But even then I think very few of them tend to ride
| during the peak commuter hours.
| jimmaswell wrote:
| The most important thing should be the speed, not the method. A
| fit enough cyclist could easily go fast enough to be dangerous
| to other cyclists with a normal bike on cycle paths too.
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| Sure for a while. But a e-bike can do it all day. They can be
| a hazard for hours every day.
| leetcrew wrote:
| the ebikes I'm familiar with cannot travel at top speed all
| day. more like slightly more than an hour.
| jacquesm wrote:
| This is a pedal assist e-bike. There are people that cheat and
| that install throttles so they can move without pedaling but
| that's a great way to get your vehicle confiscated.
|
| A typical ride has me providing 40 to 60% of the Joules and the
| remainder comes out of the battery. If there is a very heavy
| wind up (not rare here) that might drop to 30/70 and if I have
| a tailwind it is the reverse. The bike has a nice stats display
| where it tracks all this stuff. Maximum assist is 350W (10A
| current out of a nominally 36V battery), at the wheel
| considerably less than that, this is only used when starting up
| from a complete stop. The rest of the time you're at a small
| fraction of that.
| pcwalton wrote:
| > There are people that cheat and that install throttles so
| they can move without pedaling but that's a great way to get
| your vehicle confiscated.
|
| Note that this varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. In
| the US e-bikes with throttles are legally classified as Class
| 2 electric bicycles and are generally legal for use in
| bicycle infrastructure as long as they don't exceed 20 MPH.
|
| FYI, the US classes are as follows: (1) 20 MPH (32 km/h) max,
| pedal-assist; (2) 20 MPH max, throttle; (3) 28 MPH (45 km/h)
| max, pedal-assist.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I'm not in the US.
| pcwalton wrote:
| I know, I'm just clarifying for readers who are.
| avgcorrection wrote:
| Everyone is an American on the Internet (unless stated
| otherwise).
| jacquesm wrote:
| Ah ok! Maybe I should add that bit to the article to make
| sure that people have that context.
| Steltek wrote:
| I don't think you need to defend yourself so vigorously
| in this thread. But I would say that what you're seeing
| is distinctly the American experience with e-bikes and
| bike enforcement.
|
| Americans are generally clueless about e-bike laws. This
| includes police and e-bike owners. American e-bikes are
| marketed as having throttles, being to bypass traffic at
| high speeds using the bike lanes and bike paths, and not
| needing licensing/registration. As an analog cyclist, my
| experience is that e-bikers jump the lines at red lights,
| sometimes shoving you out of the way. With the bulk of my
| cargo bike, they sometimes instead jump around me on the
| sidewalk instead, which is kind of funny-terrifying to
| watch with their heavy bikes. On bike paths, e-bikes
| stand out for their high speed in crowds and you wonder
| if the "assist" from the motor is a binary on/off.
|
| If all bikes were given more room and more consideration
| from drivers, this may not even be a real problem as each
| type would be able to spread out. But the infrastructure
| is pretty poor and police enforcement against drivers is
| even worse. So all the "alt transportation" people need
| to cram together in whatever meager space was won at the
| last road reconstruction meeting. E-bikes look great for
| converting drivers to bikes so no one wants to talk about
| banning them. But they also end up keeping their car
| driver mentality of me-first and objectifying everything
| else on the road around them.
| pcwalton wrote:
| I don't think it's helpful for us cyclists to be turning
| against each other. We ought to be unified in advocating
| for better bike infrastructure. (Personally, I use an
| electric bike because I'm still recovering from a broken
| ankle and don't want to strain it.)
| [deleted]
| jacquesm wrote:
| I added the 'I'm not in the US' bit because I probably
| should have added my location to the post.
|
| Agreed, poor infrastructure serves as an amplifier of
| irritation between classes of vehicles that should not
| even be sharing the same pathways except to occasionally
| cross. The USA is very much car centric, I'm not even
| sure if I would ride a bike there. Where I live we have
| pretty good infra but even here e-bikes and s-pedelecs
| have upset the order a bit. But I'm sure it will work out
| in the long term.
| bmj wrote:
| _Americans are generally clueless about bike laws._
|
| There, fixed that for you.
|
| _But they also end up keeping their car driver mentality
| of me-first and objectifying everything else on the road
| around them._
|
| This is a great point, and I've observed the same
| behavior among analog cyclists as well (I've been a
| regular bike commuter for over 20 years in a city without
| much cycling infrastructure). Many cycling advocates
| don't realize that simply getting people on bikes isn't
| the end goal. It really needs to be about changing the
| way people move through space among their fellow
| citizens.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| NY only allows pedal assist. In NYC they will crack down on
| electric motorcycles using the paths but ignore the
| delivery guys.
| pseudolus wrote:
| This appears to be incorrect. In NYC e-bikes with a
| throttle are permitted, and subject to the same
| limitations as pedal-assist bikes, as long as they don't
| exceed 20 mph (~32 km/h). [0].
|
| [0] https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/ebikes-
| more-engl...
| tshaddox wrote:
| But why does anyone actually care if you technically need to
| be pedaling in order for the electric motor to engage? Surely
| an electric bicycle could still go arbitrarily fast while
| arbitrarily requiring the pedals to turn. Isn't this whole
| thing just a silly loophole in what is considered a
| "bicycle"? What if instead, bicycle lanes just had rules
| regarding top speed, weight, form factor, etc.
| QuercusMax wrote:
| My wife just bought an ebike (from RadPower) that has both
| pedal assist and a throttle that doesn't require pedaling.
| You can also adjust the amount of pedal assist so you can
| "feather pedal".
|
| Who's going to confiscate this bike????
| [deleted]
| oppositelock wrote:
| It depends where you are. Most EU countries forbid
| throttles, but they're ok in the US as long as your under
| 1000W motor output (Federal laws), but local laws can make
| this stricter.
|
| I've built several e-bikes, for fun, and like the author of
| this article, I've got a long range one, but only with
| about half of his battery capacity, which is enough for me.
| masklinn wrote:
| > Who's going to confiscate this bike????
|
| Most european cops if they catch you: some countries may
| treat s-pedelecs as bikes, but in most it's a moped, you
| need a driving license, insurance, a license plate, and all
| the legal equipment of a moped (e.g. lights, rear view
| mirror), and commonly type approval (which is going to be
| very, very expensive). Also can't use cycle paths.
|
| Over the last few years many (but probably not all) member
| countries have passed laws to treat devices not exceeding
| 25km/h to bikes, but that's only for hard-limited devices,
| not "I swear I don't go faster than 25", the latter?
| mopeds.
| DonHopkins wrote:
| On the day that daylight saving time changes so it's dark
| an hour early, the Dutch police sneak out all around the
| city, hide behind bushes, and jump out to surprise
| unsuspecting bike riders who don't have their lights on
| yet, and write them traffic tickets.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| This has to be a joke right?
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| > it's a moped, you need a driving license, insurance, a
| license plate, and all the legal equipment of a moped
| (e.g. lights, rear view mirror), and commonly type
| approval (which is going to be very, very expensive).
|
| The amount of bureaucracy in Europe for completely
| mundane things is completely unbelievable.
|
| Getting a Driver's license in France, for example, is an
| uphill battle against a very hostile administration. I
| can completely see why some tried to dodge some of these
| absurd regulations by innovating in the e-bike space.
|
| Having a tiny bike barely able to break the 25mph limit
| be considered a moped just because it has a throttle as
| well as pedal assist is completely ridiculous.
| hendersoon wrote:
| Depends on your country, really. Throttle ebikes are legal
| in the USA so long as they don't go faster than 20MPH on
| throttle alone.
|
| And really speed is what matters here. Who cares if it's
| pedal-assist or throttle so long as you aren't going
| markedly faster than normal people without any motor at
| all? There's no safety concern.
| mikepurvis wrote:
| At a certain point, you've added enough extra mass to the
| vehicle in terms of batteries, motor, beefed up brakes
| and frame, etc that you need to start asking questions
| about how much kinetic energy it's carrying and what
| happens to it all in case of a crash.
|
| Silly comparison, but we wouldn't let a car drive on the
| sidewalk even if it had a special module that limited it
| to 5km/h.
| iso1210 wrote:
| > Silly comparison, but we wouldn't let a car drive on
| the sidewalk even if it had a special module that limited
| it to 5km/h.
|
| We do in the UK - it's perfectly normal for cars
| (including police cars) to mount and drive along the
| pavement, before being left there
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| Same in practically every European country I've been to.
|
| And it's not like it doesn't happen in the US either.
| Most residential streets don't _have_ sidewalks in the
| first place so technically parking in front of a house
| without a curb or lane is the exact equivalent. Just
| because it isn't explicitly marked as a sidewalk doesn't
| mean it isn't treated as one when it's the only option.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| There has been some talk of changing the law on that,
| although I can't see how that would work in many streets.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Same in China. Doesn't matter if they are allowed to park
| there or not.
| otabdeveloper4 wrote:
| Yeah, there's an argument to be made somewhere here about
| banning obese people from running. :P
| jacquesm wrote:
| The weight of the bike + rider is still well below what
| some riders weigh all by themselves. Compared to a
| scooter it's a featherweight, compared to a regular
| e-bike it's about a 5 Kg premium.
| iambateman wrote:
| There's an order of magnitude between a 2 ton vehicle and
| a 250 pound vehicle+rider.
|
| Cars also have huge blind spots and if a bike rider gets
| in an accident, it's usually very painful for them too,
| so their incentives to avoid accidents are quite high.
| mikepurvis wrote:
| Okay, then take away the blind spots and some of the mass
| and ask the same question-- why don't we allow
| motorcycles to drive on the sidewalk or multiuse paths
| assuming they pinky swear to always go really slowly?
| HPsquared wrote:
| Seriously? 1. Motorbikes weigh at least 10 times as much
| as bicycles, and can't be picked up any moved around by
| the rider 2. Motorbikes are much wider than bicycles 3.
| Motorbikes can accelerate much faster than bicycles 4.
| Motorbikes emit noise and exhaust fumes 5. Motorbikes
| have a much larger turning radius than bicycles 6.
| Motorbikes are capable of keeping up with cars and
| therefore have no need to be on bike lanes.
|
| Probably a lot more reasons as well.
| mikepurvis wrote:
| The starting point for this discussion was:
|
| "Who cares if it's pedal-assist or throttle so long as
| you aren't going markedly faster than normal people
| without any motor at all?"
|
| And my point is that there are a lot of devices out there
| that are _legally_ an ebike, and therefore have access to
| bike infrastructure provided the observe a 20MPH speed
| limit, but that are in reality much heavier and less
| maneuverable than what most people consider a "bicycle".
|
| Obviously this has been lost on the downvoters, but just
| as some examples, if I were out with my kids cycling on a
| multi-use path, I would not be thrilled to have "bikes"
| like these passing me at 20MPH:
|
| https://rugged.bike/
|
| https://ebikegeneration.com/collections/rambo
|
| https://www.addmotor.com/products/m-5500
| jacquesm wrote:
| Then you also have:
|
| - bakfietsen (cargo bikes)
|
| - delivery bikes
|
| - e-scooters (25 kph)
|
| - e-scooters (45 kph)
|
| - regular scooters
|
| - mopeds
|
| And all of those you can encounter on a bike path. I
| cycle daily with my kids on the way to school in traffic
| and I spent a lot of time over the years educating them
| to be safe. This is pretty hard work because kids really
| have the attention span of mosquitos and tend to be very
| easily distracted.
|
| The scooters are the biggest danger, followed by cars,
| cars, cars and cars. E-bikes and other bike like devices
| have never over the course of many 1000's of rides to
| school and back been a problem. This is NL, so that may
| well be different where you live, here bikes are pretty
| well respected in traffic as long as you don't mix it up
| with the cars.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| I have a fairly large cargo e-bike; it weighs 75lbs. I
| weigh 200lbs. I'm sure you'd feel a difference being hit
| by me that rather than me on my 18lb road bike, but I go
| faster on my road bike except when climbing.
| DonHopkins wrote:
| I'd love an Electric Hot-Tub Bakfiets, but the batteries
| don't last long, they aren't very maneuverable, and they
| spill a lot around corners.
|
| Those things are amazing. Here are a few photos I took of
| a dude in Amsterdam riding a bakfiets carrying an outdoor
| urinal.
|
| https://imgur.com/a/nq2rnBW
| Animats wrote:
| Yes. Maybe a stopping-distance requirement. Many
| "e-bikes" are under-braked and under-tired for their
| speed and mass.
|
| Big-tire "e-bikes" with disk brakes are really light
| motorcycles. Forget the pedals and admit it.
| mikepurvis wrote:
| I completely agree-- electric fat bikes are totally a fun
| time, but I think they really land in an odd place when
| it comes to where they belong on the road. They're likely
| too bulky and heavy to be in the bike lane, but shouldn't
| really be in the car lane given their speed limit. And
| the speed limit shouldn't really be dropped without
| imposing licensing, and once you're there, there's no
| point-- it's just an electric motorcycle.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Here in NL that e-bike would not be legal. It's quite
| possible that where you live that such a bike is legal. Do
| check up on it though to make sure!
| koonsolo wrote:
| Same in Belgium, and they are pretty strict about that.
| jacquesm wrote:
| And France:
|
| https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-8106261/F
| ran...
| unethical_ban wrote:
| I object to the pejorative "cheat" as to suggest that non
| pedal assist is morally worse than pedalling.
|
| Edit to say nice job on the project, this is awesome. Here in
| Texas, I would love to see a lot of people using these in the
| bike lane.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Cheats as in 'breaking the law'.
| glenjamin wrote:
| Looking at those power numbers, I can't help but wonder how
| much you'd gain by doing this sort of modification on a bike
| that is more efficient and/or aerodynamic even without the
| motor attached.
|
| A touring bike frame with 700c wheels and a more stretched
| out position would likely allow you to travel at the same
| speed for lower total power output - and make your battery go
| further (or not require such a large battery).
| jacquesm wrote:
| There are velomobiles here, and also e-bike versions of
| those that go wicked fast. They also ride on the bike
| paths. I think they're quite dangerous because they are so
| low that you are riding below the height of a car hood (or
| a mirror for that matter).
|
| Here is a picture of one:
|
| http://dutchbikes.nl/artwork2/kv4/passing.jpg
|
| and a video:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAcy7EVRpXc
| gtirloni wrote:
| I think it's insane this is allowed on the streets
| without a license or anything. I'm afraid of riding my
| regular bike if there's no bike lanes, let alone
| something like this in the middle of all the cars.
| Insane.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Agreed, they are very dangerous. But there very few of
| them (because people realize they are dangerous).
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| Where I grew up a bike with a motor and pedals was a moped and
| was legal to drive without license if under 50cc. They're still
| considered bikes.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Here too, but today you would need a license for those. Ditto
| with my bike, you can't ride it without a drivers license.
| tshaddox wrote:
| Why not just have reasonable rules for bike lanes, like a speed
| limit and perhaps size/weight limits? Cars with a top speed of
| 85mph and a 0-60 of 10 seconds are treated with precisely the
| same rules as cars with a top speed of 170mph and a 0-60 of 3
| seconds. We don't really need separate terminology or separate
| lanes for them.
| ml_basics wrote:
| Awesome! What speed does eco mode mean? A 500km range is pretty
| impressive, possibly also longer than it would be comfortable to
| sit on a bike without needing to sleep!
| deanc wrote:
| I have a specialized Vado sl. You can purchase a range extender
| and easily do over 100km with it, in reality closer to 200k. Any
| reason you didn't consider this as it's manufacturer supported?
| jeffbee wrote:
| The Vado SL with the range extender still has a smaller battery
| than the Vado. If you want that kind of range all the time,
| isn't the Vado the better choice? At $450 for 160Wh, the Vado
| SL range extender is the worst deal in the Specialized catalog,
| and that's saying something!
| jacquesm wrote:
| I never even knew about the brand. The three that I looked at
| were Stromer, Bosch based systems and Klever. The Bosch based
| system won out because it doesn't use fancy one-off stuff,
| there is a fairly good source for spares (batteries, motors,
| controllers) and it seems to be the most reliable system on the
| market. The Stromers are a bit faster (higher powered motors),
| the Klever looks clunky and I've read a ton of stories about
| their reliability issues.
|
| Will look at the Vado, thanks for the pointer.
| Matthias247 wrote:
| Specialized is one of the most well-known bike brands among
| enthusiasts. Unfortunately also one most expensive ones.
|
| But they have some interesting innovation going on, e.g. with
| the FutureShock system on rigid bikes, integration of storage
| in downtubes, their various suspension designs on
| mountainbikes, first dual-crown fork on an enduro bike, and
| their own e-bike system.
|
| You can think of them as the Apple of the bike market.
| ericd wrote:
| Ha awesome! Sorry if I missed it, but I didn't see a mention of
| the weight of the battery pack by itself, how much does the
| custom pack add?
| jacquesm wrote:
| It adds about 7 kg.
| fsflover wrote:
| > the Bosch BMS is part of a DRM setup that pretty much prohibits
| using 3rd party batteries
|
| Another good reason to fight DRM:
| https://www.defectivebydesign.org/.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Agreed, highly frustrating this. I found a way to make it work
| but it would have been a lot better if third party batteries
| could be supported by the system out-of-the-box without
| butchering a Bosch pack first.
| fsflover wrote:
| You probably should add "Show HN:" in front of the title,
| since it's you who posted and did all this. Thank you for a
| great article!
| jacquesm wrote:
| Will do. But since it seems to have sunk without a trace
| I'm wondering if that's even worth it.
|
| And you're welcome, that was a fun build.
| fsflover wrote:
| > it seems to have sunk without a trace
|
| Now, it's the top of this page:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/show
| jacquesm wrote:
| Yes, that's thanks to your comment. Was looking forward
| to some more tips on pack construction and safety, but
| fine.
| bredren wrote:
| I built a stretch cruiser ebike out of parts, including a bafang
| / 8fun mid drive and 52v "shark" style battery. It does pedal
| assist and straight up throttle to danger in lickety-split.
|
| This is a cool project, however, I wouldn't have gone this route
| because:
|
| It isn't a great idea to lock up an ebike, but there are
| circumstances where you might want to and you'll want to take the
| battery with you when you do.
|
| If you need added capacity, I'd recommend a second battery to
| swap in during a longer ride. This can limit the size of the
| extreme failure should that occur, and let's you choose less
| weight for shorter trips.
|
| Finally, there are some quality battery builds out there, in a
| variety of shapes that include enclosures offering some
| resistance to shock.
|
| Besides all the testing and perfect wiring here, you can rely
| somewhat on the seller to back up their work.
| 93po wrote:
| If the battery isn't easily removed then I would say it's
| probably just as safe to lock up this ebike as much as any
| other expensive bike. It'd be really hard to flip/fence with a
| custom battery like that though
| jeffbee wrote:
| I love it. This is "only" three times the size of the battery in
| a factory-built e-bike like the Specialized Turbo Vado 5.0, but
| at half the price.
| pdog wrote:
| A city-wide charging network with standardized, user-replaceable
| battery packs would be the "holy grail" of short- and medium-
| range electric bike and moped commuting. Unfortunately, jury
| rigging a larger battery capacity is the only solution due to
| competing, non-interoperable solutions and outdated speed and
| distance regulations.
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