[HN Gopher] The Framework Laptop Is Great for a Linux-Friendly, ...
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The Framework Laptop Is Great for a Linux-Friendly,
Upgradeable/Modular Laptop
Author : commoner
Score : 224 points
Date : 2021-11-11 12:42 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.phoronix.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.phoronix.com)
| sdorf wrote:
| I've been using mine (min-spec 1135 DIY) for ~4 days on
| Sway+Manjaro; the hardware feels really good and for all the
| considerations made towards repairability, it feels like a no-
| compromises premium piece of hardware. It was nice to be able to
| take hardware that I have laying around (i.e. SSD and RAM) and
| put it to use.
|
| The biggest disappointment so far is directly related to the
| processor offering:
|
| - It feels like it warms up pretty quickly doing small things and
| starts spinning up the fan
|
| - s2 ("deep") sleep works out-of-the-box but drains battery way
| faster than I'd like
|
| Some of this kind of stuff may be related to the modularity of
| the laptop (e.g. bigger power draw of the less power-efficient
| non-soldered components), but I think a lot of the blame lies
| with Intel's offerings & hopefully things take a turn in this
| space for the better. I'd love to see e.g. an M1-style ARM
| offering from someone that runs linux and is offered in a package
| like Framework's.
|
| The trackpad is probably pretty good for a 'windows laptop', but
| just doesn't feel as good as the one on even my 2015 Macbook (and
| I don't think it fundamentally can be as good with a physical
| 'pivot-based' click approach compared to the simulated haptic
| approach on the Mac). It really does feel like a compromise on
| usability when you see how good the basics can be on e.g. the new
| Macs. I don't think it's Framework's fault and the ecosystem here
| just needs to improve.
|
| Based on what I've seen so far, I think this really is a game-
| changer for people who want a first-class linux-compatible laptop
| with less compromises (both 'ethically' and from a hardware
| perspective), and I'm really looking forward to how Framework
| continues to improve the offering and innovate in this space.
|
| I'm giving it a try as a daily driver for a few weeks. I need a
| linux laptop for some of my hobbies and the Framework still feels
| like the best choice for me (including some of the Thinkpads I
| was looking at... hard pass on the 16:9 offerings, the 3:2 on the
| Framework is really nice), but I think it'll be hard to swap off
| of the Mac for the day-to-day usability "basics".
| mdp2021 wrote:
| There are no fanless CPUs among the options, and the consumptions
| are not explicit. The only battery mentioned is 55Wh.
|
| CPUs with the lowest consumption are (sorry for the obvious
| points)
|
| -- battery efficient, allow for more work per charge;
|
| -- silent, requiring no fan;
|
| -- often cheaper;
|
| -- still quite fast for normal use.
|
| So, I would not do without...
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| CPUs with higher power consumption are:
|
| - Irrelevant regarding battery life because I can get from my
| office to the conference room to my shop to my home and back to
| my office long before the battery dies even with hamstrung
| sleep states in modern processors; everywhere I work it's
| plugged in to a monitor, keyboard, mouse, and wall socket and I
| can't understand why you would use it otherwise.
|
| - Still quiet, because the large heatsink is able to cool it
| while doing little work, and a large-diameter and thick fan
| doesn't have to spin like a jet turbine to cool it when it does
| need active cooling
|
| - Really, really cheap per hour to operate over years of
| critical usage; if I quote my time at $100/hr, use a computer
| for 40 hours a week for 100 weeks, and am more effective by
| even 1%, you could easily justify spending $4,000;
| realistically a bigger processor is far less than that.
|
| - Still quite fast even when I'm doing real work, unlike
| underpowered CPUs that throttle whenever I'm actually getting
| something done.
|
| so I would not work with an underpowered processor.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| ...And I forgot about the side of ethics: electricity does
| not come from the energy harnessed by playing kittens and
| natural rubbing of sheeps in pastures. When computers can
| consume 0.3 or 3 instead of 30 or 300, it is just better -
| even a thousand times better.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| We are discussing a modular laptop with hardware options. You
| would not work with James' options, others would - and he
| surely would.
|
| > _I can 't understand why you would use it otherwise_
|
| Clearly you don't. But some do use it otherwise. There are no
| power outlets from where I am writing these very words.
|
| > _the large heatsink is able to cool it while doing little
| work_
|
| So the fans are normally off? Are they on only after minutes
| of heavy load?
| unstatusthequo wrote:
| Buying a Framework laptop today! Love the mission here.
| humanwhosits wrote:
| Are there any places (stores/conferences/meetups/etc) where we
| can feel the device.
|
| I like to type on a keyboard for a few minutes before committing
| to ensure it feels ok for my wrists
| bhelkey wrote:
| It would probably help to specify your location.
| humanwhosits wrote:
| SF Bay Area
| Causality1 wrote:
| I'm itching for the day Framework starts offering a touchpad with
| physical mouse buttons.
| bigyellow wrote:
| Same, really not a fan of the dumbed-down Apple look laptops
| are heading in. Look to old school Thinkpads if you want
| "Linux-friendly" inspiration.
| Causality1 wrote:
| I just don't understand how everyone but me seems to just be
| okay with not knowing where left click stops and right click
| starts. They're just fine with having the pointer jiggle
| around whenever they click because their thumb doesn't stay
| perfectly centered while pressing down.
|
| How do people live like this?
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| Tap to click. No one actually physically clicks the corner
| of the touchpad.
| joombaga wrote:
| I physically click the corner of the touchpad (or 2
| finger click).
| xanaxagoras wrote:
| it's not hard, here's how i do it on a laptop w/gnome:
|
| left click -> entire trackpad
|
| right click -> 2 fingers entire trackpad or control +
| entire trackpad
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Try the "two fingers for right" with the [Alt] modifier
| to resize a window... Mine will simulate the mouse wheel
| instead.
| marcodiego wrote:
| From https://frame.work/blog/linux-on-the-framework-laptop :
|
| " There has been immense interest in this configuration, with it
| outselling pre-configured systems with Windows 10 by a wide
| margin."
|
| There is a market. And it is currently under-served.
| hnaccount141 wrote:
| It'd be interesting to see how much of the interest in the no-
| OS option is due to Linux vs people choosing to buy a Windows
| key cheaper elsewhere.
| spinningslate wrote:
| I'd like to see that data too. I'd be very surprised if that
| windows scenario is anything other than noise level.
|
| Though, for completeness, I'd replace Linux with *nix - I'd
| guess there'll be some BSD users in there too.
| warner25 wrote:
| I believe that the Framework DIY Edition is bringing more new
| users to the Linux desktop than anything in recent memory.
| People all over the Framework forum are talking about trying
| Linux for the first time on their new DIY Edition machines.
|
| When buyers need to opt-in to Windows for $139, it seems to
| stop the inertia. This is true even in my own case, even though
| I've used Linux on and off at home and at work for the past 15
| years. My previous laptop came with Windows 10, and I just used
| it like that (with Linux VMs in VirtualBox as needed) for four
| years. Now I'm getting caught up and keeping up with Linux
| desktop distro news, excited about it all, and trying Manjaro
| as my daily OS.
| reginold wrote:
| Would love to see this market set the bar higher than "Linux-
| friendly"!
| holri wrote:
| Would be nice if it would mention which proprietary software is
| necessary.
| maltalex wrote:
| Machines ordered without Windows won't necessarily end up
| running Linux. Many of them could end up running pirated
| Windows.
| judge2020 wrote:
| Hackintoshing is also getting easier (save for amazing
| battery life) with OpenCore, perhaps a small subset end up
| doing that.
| thereddaikon wrote:
| It will get easier right up until x86 MacOS is no longer
| updated and then will immediately become a thing of the
| past.
| judge2020 wrote:
| Monterey supports the 2013 Mac Pro and 2014 Mac Mini, so
| if we can expect only 8 years of actual OS support, we'll
| probably see 8 more years of OS updates for stuff like
| the 2020 Intel iMac and Intel Macbook Air & Pro. That's a
| long while before this becomes a possibility.
|
| https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212551
| jagger27 wrote:
| As a particularly relevant counter example, the last
| PowerPC Macs were sold until August 2006. Mac OS X
| Leopard came out a year later in October 2007 and
| received its last patch (10.5.8) in August 2009. That's a
| lot less than 8 years.
|
| This is why when the first M1 Macs were announced I
| immediately sold my 16" i9 MacBook Pro and bought an M1
| Air for much less than I sold the Intel machine for.
| Tuna-Fish wrote:
| There is no need to pirate windows anymore, there are tons of
| entirely legit windows 10 pro licenses for sale at <3EUR.
| maltalex wrote:
| Those are the exact pirated copies I was referring to. Or
| do you really believe that a copy that costs 3 euro can be
| _legit_?
| aunty_helen wrote:
| It's 'possible' maybe unlikely at 3EUR
|
| However there is a license recycling market that buy up
| unused or reassignable licenses from say software shops
| that have gone under and still have 100 visual studio
| licenses etc
| NikolaeVarius wrote:
| Yes, i want to go legit by paying pirates for, checks
| notes, buying grey market license keys that could be
| disabled at any moment
| novok wrote:
| Microsoft never bothers, and at 3 euro the risk you have
| that "activate windows" might have a low chance of
| popping up again is well worth it. Just make sure its not
| a volume license key and your pretty much good to go.
|
| Is it really pirating when all you get is a key and a
| legal inactivated copy of windows from MSFT's servers
| says it's legit?
|
| I bought an OEM pro key for $15-20, and it works great.
|
| Research it a bit more and if you call MSFT support, they
| go into a loop about how if you typed it in and windows
| says it's good, it's a legit key from their perspective.
| xrd wrote:
| I've been researching this and the sellers of this assert
| they are selling licenses that are left over and entirely
| legitimate. It's a secondary market, not unlike used cars
| or anything else that is more tangible. I think there
| might be precedent for this to be legal even if Microsoft
| wouldn't like it be so.
| bitwize wrote:
| It's illegal. Software is licensed, not sold; and
| software licenses are usually nontransferable. This was a
| point of contention in _Vernor v. Autodesk_ wherein the
| 9th Circuit found for Autodesk.
| Tuna-Fish wrote:
| In the United States, you are right. In the EU, that is
| wrong. See for example: [0]
|
| The reason you can get entirely legal windows licenses
| for so cheap is that there are many institutional buyers
| who get the licenses they actually use separately but
| still purchase a lot of computers that have OEM licenses
| bundled [1], and now they all unload those licenses at
| whatever price the market will bear. Last year, that was
| ~6EUR, this year it's down to ~3EUR.
|
| The fact that the prices is now so low is probably a part
| of why it keeps going down. A lot of people in this
| thread express suprise that a legit key could be so cheap
| so they obviously must be illegal, which drives away
| sales.
|
| [0] https://www.computerworld.com/article/2505356/eu-
| court-rules...
|
| [1] And do note that tying the OEM license to hardware is
| also entirely illegal inside the EU.
| lupire wrote:
| Has the EU market converted to annual subscription
| licenses? I expect it would.
| howinteresting wrote:
| If Microsoft really cares about this it is welcome to
| price Windows Pro competitively.
|
| (Microsoft only really cares about licensing for business
| customers, enforced through audits anyway.)
| skinkestek wrote:
| I bought Pro at around $45 and activated through
| Microsofts own activation service so while $3 sounds
| unreasonably low, unless Microsoft has started activating
| unlicensed keys it is possible to get actual legal keys
| at a fraction of the list price.
| breakingcups wrote:
| These are likely licenses given to Microsoft Partners
| which are only to be used for developing/testing
| software. They activate identically to regular keys and
| there is no indication once activated that that's the
| only licensed purpose of that key.
| TheRealDunkirk wrote:
| That reminds of the days that I was incorporated, and
| really wanted to be completely legit. I bought Office 95
| Pro for half price, with CD's in a jewel case, complete
| with holograms on the labels, and considered myself a
| careful shopper. Then the company I worked for entered into
| a Select Agreement, and we had a meeting with an official
| Microsoft representative. I asked him why licenses on the
| Select schedule were so much more expensive than my copy of
| Office, and he told me that my copy was bogus. I told him
| about the holograms and everything! Nope. I paid $200 for
| very, very good, completely fraudulent and illegal fakes.
|
| After that, I went to Linux on the desktop, and never gave
| Microsoft another dime, until my wife demanded Word on her
| Mac a couple years ago, and I now begrudgingly have an
| Office365 account.
| prophesi wrote:
| Microsoft actually offers Windows 10 for free, with some
| cosmetic restrictions until you pay for the license.
| bitwize wrote:
| Yeah, these days Windows is like Fortnite: free with
| cosmetic IAP.
|
| This is also why "Windows is a service" according to those
| Windows Update nag screens, but if Windows is a service and
| it's free, are you the customer... or the product?
| vasili111 wrote:
| Could you please provide information we're I can get that
| free of Windows?
| unethical_ban wrote:
| I swapped motherboards recently. Despite /specifically/
| getting a Microsoft account, thinking that it would link
| my account to my licenses and allow for seamless
| transfer, it seems I need to call into microsoft for them
| to re-activate my install. So first off, fuck you
| Microsoft.
|
| To the question: I have a watermark in the corner of my
| screen saying I need to activate, and I am unable to
| change my desktop background and some other things.
| Besides that, the OS is functioning normally.
| pkulak wrote:
| https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-
| download/windows10I...
| ravar wrote:
| I don't know whats up exactly but I actually tried
| installing this last week and it didn't let me. Said I
| could only install without a product key on a system that
| already has a windows install.
| beanjuiceII wrote:
| you can download it for free from microsoft, install it
| and use it no problem. like he said it has limitations
| until you pay, but you can use it forever without paying
| mbilker wrote:
| The "cosmetic restrictions" are the "Activate Windows"
| watermark and the inability to change any setting under
| Personalization in Settings.
| officeplant wrote:
| The best part being if you don't allow it to get online
| during the initial setup you can go change all the
| personalization settings. It will only lock you out once
| you get online and it verifies its not activated. I can
| deal with just having that watermark when I only boot
| into win10 for a few specific programs.
| lupire wrote:
| That's for upgrades from Win 7/8, not new machines.
| neogodless wrote:
| Restrictions:
|
| https://windowsreport.com/windows-10-used-without-
| activation...
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| Doubt it. First of all, computers with Windows aren't any
| more expensive than the same model with no OS or Linux.
|
| The Framework is niche hardware and honestly, it's doubtful
| non-developers would ever hear about it. Odds are it's
| something Linux users are seeking out.
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| >First of all, computers with Windows aren't any more
| expensive than the same model with no OS or Linux.
|
| That's not what Framework's website is telling me. It looks
| like getting it with Windows costs up to $199 more
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| Strange considering other OEMs bundle it for the same
| cost as Linux.
|
| Framework's loss or they just don't consider it
| important?
| unethical_ban wrote:
| Or OEMs rip you off by including the Windows price in the
| no-OS cost.
| pentium166 wrote:
| I would guess it's a combination of Framework not having
| the same deal the big OEMs are getting, OEM grift, and
| based on the price, Framework appears to be selling
| retail Windows licenses rather than OEM licenses.
| pydry wrote:
| Or Microsoft puts subtle, legally deniable pressure on
| the OEMs.
|
| I've never managed to buy the laptop i want without a
| windows license. Often it's been a PITA to take it off,
| too, to add insult to extra cost.
|
| In the 90s they threw their hands up and said it was
| nothing to do with them that this kept on happening and
| it was all a hare brained conspiracy. Until that memo
| came out and proved otherwise, of course.
|
| I can't imagine framework getting the decent OEM bulk
| windows license deals being as avowedly pro linux as they
| are.
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| That's fair. I'm no MS fan for the record. Just assumed
| Framework would have access to some OEM deal on Windows
| OSes.
|
| My next laptop is definitely going to be something
| without Windows (Linux user for the last ~15 or so
| years).
| tomnipotent wrote:
| It reads mostly like a marketing decision.
| beanjuiceII wrote:
| i bought a system76 and removed linux and put windows 10 on
| it so i don't think it impossible to think people do this
| stuff
| duped wrote:
| One of the (maybe the?) largest tech reviewer on YouTube
| quite publicly bought one on the spot after reviewing and
| then invested in the company.
| officeplant wrote:
| Recently I could still save money on Lenovo, Dell, and even
| some HP business machines by ordering the No OS (freedos)
| or Linux options. I haven't checked in two years because I
| haven't needed a new machine. You just don't see it as
| often in the consumer space when microsoft is subsidizing
| the cost of windows to remain the ever present option.
| dagw wrote:
| _First of all, computers with Windows aren 't any more
| expensive than the same model with no OS or Linux._
|
| That's not true in this case. Framework charge you the full
| $140 for Windows Home and $200 if you want Windows Pro.
| ksec wrote:
| That is a very good point. Especially when the cost of
| Windows is priced out explicitly starting at $139.
|
| I think the one thing we have ( or should have ) learned. Is
| the paradox of computing. Bill Gate said all hardware will be
| free. Because the cost is driven down so quickly. And it will
| be software that rules the world. That was late 90s and early
| 00s. And it make sense. Because software development is
| getting more expensive.
|
| It turns out no consumer is willing to paid for software. The
| vast majority of consumer market wants software to be free.
| And they are only paying for the product ( both software and
| hardware ). Most developers were surprised at their iOS
| copies sold compared to their macOS software. Where iOS had
| 10x the market size, but only sold less than half of what
| they did on macOS. That is a 20x difference.
| skinkestek wrote:
| You can get a fully working Windows key for well under $50.
|
| I know, I had to get one for my kids.
|
| So maybe some are just buying a legal copy at a price that
| Framework aren't allowed tonsell at.
|
| That said, if one isn't stuck in a very Microsoft-centric
| organization or isn't playing certain Windows-only games,
| which developer honestly want Windows now that even power
| management (suspend/resume) seems to work better under Linux?
| anotherhue wrote:
| Many laptops come with two. One on either side of the space
| key.
| skinkestek wrote:
| My wife is out and kids upstairs so I'm reading HN alone
| in the living room and actually laughed out loud (after
| first thinking you had replied to the wrong comment).
| kkielhofner wrote:
| Note that if you're building a framework with the intent of using
| Linux avoid the "vpro" variant of the Intel wireless adapter:
|
| https://community.frame.work/t/using-the-ax210-with-linux-on...
|
| Last I checked with every recommended config tweak you still lose
| ~3% battery per hour of suspend, which really adds up and is
| extremely annoying.
|
| We've been asking framework to include a notice referencing this
| issue when configuring but as of the last time I checked they
| haven't.
| nrp wrote:
| We added a note to the FAQ on the configurator page, but we'll
| think through how we can do a more prominent warning.
| kkielhofner wrote:
| Thanks for the reply! Certainly a step in the right direction
| but given the significance of the issue (and unknown response
| time from Intel) a warning should display whenever the vpro
| hardware is selected in the configurator. Because of this
| issue I have to carefully plan when to suspend my laptop -or-
| shut it down every time.
|
| At this point I'd also be happy to buy a new non-vpro
| replacement from you but I don't seem to be able to.
| eu wrote:
| Im in the same boat. Love the product but the battery in
| sleep mode is pretty bad :(
| oneplane wrote:
| You used to be able to disable vPro features using on-board
| MEBx jumpers but I bet that has changed in the last 5 or so
| revisions of that feature.
|
| It used to be that you simply had an S3/4/5-Off setting
| that powered down the CSME and any vPro NICs. Some
| implementations did leave WoL on for Ethernet links.
| 0des wrote:
| Can't wait for them to offer AMD systems. It's a preference of
| mine to not use Intel products.
| fsflover wrote:
| Actually you can at least disable Intel ME, but you can do
| nothing with AMD PSP.
| [deleted]
| 0des wrote:
| Thank you for the reply, however, I cannot disable my
| personal values and preferences.
| fsflover wrote:
| Could you tell us what are they based on? My ones are on
| security and control.
| noahtallen wrote:
| One example for me is Linux support in the GPU wars.
| Nvidia has been very hostile to Linux compared to AMD, so
| philosophically (for now), I'll prefer AMD for my
| platform despite Nvidia offering a better GPU. Not as big
| a deal with Intel, but I like encouraging what I see as
| good behavior. AMD market share isn't anywhere near Intel
| either, so I also like putting my money on the "underdog"
| to keep the competition going.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| Without knowing or caring about ME or PSP, perhaps they
| mean the behavior of AMD the company vs. Intel the
| company. I am an AMD man as often as possible for this
| reason.
| fsflover wrote:
| > perhaps they mean the behavior of AMD the company vs.
| Intel the company
|
| In short: "There is a computer inside your computer. And
| it can computer while you computer"
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine
| [deleted]
| lucian1900 wrote:
| They also tend to use a bit less power.
| aunty_helen wrote:
| I can't wait until they offer amd ryzen and come in a 15-16 inch
| form factor... no really I can't wait, I ordered a framework
| yesterday tehehe
|
| If it's good and I want to continue with it as my daily I'll keep
| supporting them when the bigger ryznier laptops ship too.
| icu wrote:
| I'm with you 100%... I'm holding out for a 15" Ryzen Framework
| laptop
| kavalg wrote:
| Looks like this is the official site: https://frame.work/
| "Framework Laptop starts at $999. DIY Edition configurable from
| $749." - that's for the base model.
|
| Unfortunately I didn't see the display specifications while
| configuring the product. That is a major factor when making a
| decision for me.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| And one of the pictures from Larabel (third in first page,
| https://www.phoronix.net/image.php?id=framework-laptop&image...
| ) does not seem to show a matte display, though I am not
| sure...
|
| Edit: confirmed glossy on other reviews.
| DoingIsLearning wrote:
| I asked this question to Nirav, one of the founders in a
| previous HN thread about the laptop.
|
| He clarified that there is currently no matte option with no
| plans for display options.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27948272
|
| Perhaps if they realise there is a market that direction can
| be changed? (One can hope)
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Considering that some will simply refuse to work on a
| glossy display (and I guess such "some" largely overlaps
| with their intended potential market), and that the whole
| purpose of the product is modularity, they will have to
| realize that they currently are _losing_ an important slice
| of market - they are severely slashing their base.
| yankcrime wrote:
| The display specifications are shown here:
| https://frame.work/laptop
|
| 13.5" 3:2 2256x1504, 100% sRGB color gamut, and >400 nit
| mdp2021 wrote:
| It is also IPS.
|
| From NotebookCheck: <<13.50 inch 3:2, 2256 x 1504 pixel 201
| PPI, BOE CQ NE135FBM-N41, IPS, BOE095F, glossy: yes, 60 Hz>>;
| <<Framework uses the exact same ... as found on the Acer
| Swift 3 SF313. ... wide color coverage and relatively high
| contrast ratio. Response times are slow>>.
|
| The issue is: being this "option" (without a clear
| alternative?) glossy instead of matte, the display also will
| require being a module as part of the modular framework.
| hoppyhoppy2 wrote:
| The NotebookCheck review has info about the display.
| https://www.notebookcheck.net/Framework-Laptop-13-5-Review-I...
| dartharva wrote:
| Am I the only one who just can't work with small laptops? I know
| and love the concept of the Framework laptop, but won't be able
| to contemplate buying one simply because it retains a Macbook-
| like form factor instead of a rugged 15" one with a tactile
| keyboard.
| Vrondi wrote:
| I love small laptops, but I hate the Macbook knock-off
| appearance and the giant trackpad.
| jacknews wrote:
| I love the idea of modular, upgradable, and especially linux-
| friendly.
|
| But, because modular, I'd like a Framework Surface.
|
| Having the screen, keyboard, touchpad, computer, etc all
| integrated into a single device, seems like far too many factors
| and constraints to be able to reach perfection. Better to split
| at least the keyboard and pointing device, so you can pick and
| choose.
| kall wrote:
| That would be very interesting. Maybe I could finally fulfill
| my dream of a portable system that can raise the display to eye
| level while keeping the keyboard at an ergonomic level.
|
| I'm surprised no one else seems to want this. Imagine if you
| could clip your screen onto the headrest in front of you.
| Wouldn't that be a huge improvement?
| d3nj4l wrote:
| Imagine if you could clip your screen onto the headrest in
| front of you
|
| That's just a VR headset!
| spicybright wrote:
| Not really.
| Hemospectrum wrote:
| For a few years now I've wished for this kind of thing. After
| I sketched out a couple of concepts, the approach that looked
| most viable was to build a folding keyboard case where the
| lid opens up into a tablet stand. This hugely reduces the
| scope of the design problem, because PCB mounting holes for
| mechanical 60% keyboards are more or less standardized, and
| tablets are obviously commodities. Even so, this is easier
| said than done. I didn't (and still don't) have enough
| experience designing things with hinges; I don't know how to
| make things thin, light, easy to build, yet still strong
| enough to throw around; and I could never decide what to do
| about mice.
| kall wrote:
| I've been thinking about it more from a "what I wish one of
| the 20 OEMs building crazy windows convertibles should
| build" than a " what can I DIY" angle. Here's what I would
| want:
|
| Computer is maybe the size of new 16" MBP (large but
| reasonable). All the components in the base, the screen is
| thin and light. Instead of a flimsy ribbon cable the screen
| is connected with a removable flat cable that has an auto
| roll-up mechanism like a tape measure. Screen is held to
| the base with some "simple" protruding hinges that it just
| can slot in and out of without crazy tech (because the
| hinges are a not super small). The screen has a magnetic
| back and there would be a couple of different mounting
| accessories:
|
| - magnet to VESA, so you can easily plop it into a nice
| stand on your desk and really utilize it in a multi-monitor
| setup
|
| - an "external" raising arm that slides a plate under your
| base and is secured by it's weight (maybe clips in) then
| raises it up a little and holds it by magnets
|
| - suction cups
|
| - gorilla pod type mount and/or clamps
|
| - ... whatever else like tripod and mic stand adapters
|
| This hodge-podge idea is probably not realistic for a
| commercial product but we can dream. My planned solution is
| M1 13" macbook air + portable USB-C screen and macgyvering
| it with a gorilla pod or suction cups. Unfortunately I am
| kind of married to macOS right now and that doesn't have
| tablet options.
| raihansaputra wrote:
| On the same boat with macOs, my dream would be an 13"
| iPad running macOs, with MBA bottom shell as battery +
| keyboard + trackpad + speakers + etc. But currently an
| external monitor (or ipad + sidecar) is the best choice.
| I'm also trying to work on a stand design for the second
| monitor, but it's not easy.
| fleaaaa wrote:
| This sounds a lot promising, why haven't I thought this?
| Portable builtin monitor arm must be painful HW engineering
| but I can see myself very easily enjoying this feature.
| luke2m wrote:
| Yeah, that would be awesome. I'd pick a X12 detachable like
| keyboard for mine.
| leephillips wrote:
| Me, too. I've bought my last laptop. The attachment of the
| keyboard to the display is an ergonomic disaster. Fortunately,
| several Surface models work well with Linux; there's even a
| special kernel for them.
| smoldesu wrote:
| I really wish I could get my Surface Pro 3 to play nice with
| Linux. I've even used the custom kernel, but every time,
| without fail, it seems to heat up until the entire system
| freezes, at which point I have to shut it down. Maybe it's a
| hardware issue?
| calebkaiser wrote:
| That seems hardware related. I'm currently running a more-
| or-less out of the box install of PopOS on my Surface Pro 3
| smoldesu wrote:
| Funny that you bring that up, I've heard multiple
| accounts of Ubuntu-based distributions running without
| issue on the device. Maybe it's my own damn fault for
| trying to run Arch on this thing...
|
| EDIT: tried it, and i'm still idling at 50-60c :(
| aidenn0 wrote:
| The Framework Laptop is literally the first time _ever_ I 've
| seen a laptop and wished I was at the point in my upgrade-cycle
| to get a new laptop. Right now I have 2-3 more years of use out
| of my current laptop before I upgrade though.
| mkaic wrote:
| On the bright side, that means that _even cooler_ second or
| third gen Frameworks will be available when you _do_ end up
| upgrading!
| aidenn0 wrote:
| I really hope so. The alternative is they could go out of
| business (even with demand being good, supply-chain logistics
| is challenging right now)
| breakingcups wrote:
| I'm kind of in the exact opposite boat. I've waited for a while
| to buy one because this laptop is coming, but I still can't buy
| it in Europe!
| [deleted]
| skrtskrt wrote:
| Gotta have the option to have the super key not have the windows
| logo
| supernintendo wrote:
| I'm typing this on my Framework now and I have to say it really
| is a special device. The prevailing culture of treating
| technology as disposable is something I personally don't vibe
| with - I always keep all of my tech and have collected machines
| over the years that most people would probably consider obsolete
| and uninteresting (there's an Amiga 1000 and iMac G3 currently in
| my field of view). Having a fully open machine that I can
| customize, upgrade and repair for the foreseeable future is just
| so cool and makes me feel like this is my personal computer in
| the truest sense of the word!
|
| A few takeaways from using it for around a month now:
|
| 1. This is the most "premium" feeling non-Apple laptop I've ever
| owned. Most of the laptops I've ever daily driven are Macs or
| Thinkpads so take that for what it's worth, but I think most
| people will be happy with the fit and finish of this device.
|
| 2. The swappable port system is actually a lot more useful than I
| expected. I initially thought it would be something I set up once
| and didn't bother with again for a while but there are a lot of
| random moments where it comes in handy. I'm kind of a messy,
| hyper person that periodically reorganizes my desk and I like to
| move between different workspaces when I need a different setting
| to feel creative. Being able to move my HDMI or USB-C ports
| around for better cable management is so nice and yeah I could
| use an external hub but I've always found those to be annoying
| on-the-go and just "feels bad man". Also I don't use Micro SD
| cards as much as other people but there are times when I do and
| being able to swap that in is really kewl.
|
| 3. Linux support is amazing but there are still a few hiccups. I
| use Arch Linux and everything works perfectly except for one
| minor inconvenience with Bluetooth: on a soft restart, the
| Bluetooth is disabled and I have to do a hard restart to restore
| it (can be mitigated by a kernel downgrade and should be fixed in
| a future update). It's not a deal breaker for me as I usually
| just close my laptop and put it to sleep, but just know that it's
| like running Linux on most other computers - you're going to have
| a much better time if you're fluent in tinkering and configuring
| your OS.
|
| 4. The 3:2 display is awesome for programming and content
| creation, and I don't know why more devices don't adopt it. My
| only criticism is that it's not a touch screen but with how
| modular this laptop is it's only a matter of time before that
| becomes an option.
| stormbrew wrote:
| > 4. The 3:2 display is awesome for programming and content
| creation, and I don't know why more devices don't adopt it. My
| only criticism is that it's not a touch screen but with how
| modular this laptop is it's only a matter of time before that
| becomes an option.
|
| Really strongly agree with both points here as a new owner of a
| framework laptop. My old personal laptop had a 16:9 (not 16:10)
| screen and wow the difference is so stark in terms of usability
| for anything that benefits from vertical orientation. Suddenly
| I wish you could still get 4:3 desktop monitors again. I kinda
| filled that gap with rotatable 16x10 monitors but honestly I
| just kind of miss 4:3.
|
| The 16x9 laptop is still nice for watching videos though.
| schmorptron wrote:
| How does it compare when opening two windows side by side? Is
| there still enough horizontal screen real estate for things
| like a browser and a code editor to still be able to see
| enough content on both?
| ayushnix wrote:
| > 4. The 3:2 display is awesome for programming and content
| creation, and I don't know why more devices don't adopt it.
|
| The display on the FrameWork laptop needs to be scaled
| fractionally (about ~1.6x) which is a deal breaker for me. It
| would've been far better if it had resolution of 3000x2000 or
| 3200x1800, which would've given it a PPI of ~270 and integer
| scaling at 2x.
|
| Linux support for fractional scaling with multiple monitors is
| unstable, even on Wayland. Applications like Firefox and Qt
| apps behave abnormally (pop menu positions are incorrect, they
| often flicker). There's also a subtle loss of quality in fonts
| and images.
|
| https://scribe.rip/elementaryos/what-is-hidpi-and-why-does-i...
| kevinherron wrote:
| Totally agree. All these reviews are conveniently ignoring
| this. Some of them I've seen even just left it at 2x scaling
| and did the whole video with a giant cartoonish UI that had
| no actual usable space.
|
| For Linux users this display needs to be either 1500x1000 or
| 3000x2000.
| Grimm665 wrote:
| For number 3, the bluetooth issue, I also encountered this on
| NixOS but it seems to have been fixed with kernel 5.15.0 I
| upgraded to this week. But maybe I've just been lucky :/
| burnt_toast wrote:
| Thank you for posting this! I run linux on two XPS 15s and I
| love them but after manually repairing one and not being able
| to easily find parts for it it left me a little salty. My next
| laptop will most definitely be a framework one!
|
| Your second point about the swappable ports finally made me
| realize it's not a gimmick. I don't know why but I think just
| because it's different I was a little apprehensive about it.
| The thought of being able to reconfigure it to avoid a dongle
| or hub is great.
| chrisallenlane wrote:
| > 2. The swappable port system is actually a lot more useful
| than I expected.
|
| I'll second this. I was momentarily annoyed earlier in the week
| when I reorganized my desk, and found that the USB C port was
| on the "wrong" side for my cable-management. It took me a
| moment to realize that this was (for once) a solvable problem.
|
| I've been running Linux on mine for about a month now and love
| it. It's easily my favorite laptop I've ever owned.
| timbit42 wrote:
| The display is 3:2, not 4:3.
| supernintendo wrote:
| Oops, nice catch. Fixed.
| demux wrote:
| Has anyone had luck with framework and openbsd? I'm having
| network card driver issues OOTB
| pehtis wrote:
| There is a very nice writeup on using OpenBSD on the Framework
| laptop by joshua stein, one of the OpenBSD developers.
| Unfortunately he had to swap the wifi card as it was
| unsupported. https://jcs.org/2021/08/06/framework
| LNSY wrote:
| I'm left handed and track-pads have never agreed with me.
|
| Other people on this site have recommended the MNT Reform to me:
| https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/reform
|
| It seems like a different flavor of an open source laptop that
| people who want a better keyboard and has the option of a
| trackball (!!!) instead of the trackpad.
|
| I think the MNT is going to be my next laptop, but the Frame.work
| is pretty cool.
| slantyyz wrote:
| Oh wow, the MNT is surprisingly cool.
|
| It reminds me of the Apple PowerBook 170
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_170) I had in the
| early 90s.
|
| I loved the trackball on those early PowerBooks.
| pengaru wrote:
| The mnt is far more open as well, but there's no comparison in
| the performance department... you'd have to treat the mnt more
| like a very underpowered, memory-constrained netbook.
| LNSY wrote:
| My current laptop is a Thinkpad X200t from 10+ years ago. The
| MNT has a modern GPU and a nice keyboard. I think it's going
| to work quite well.
| pengaru wrote:
| Maybe, at least that era of Core 2 Duo thinkpads supported
| 8G of RAM...
|
| I was in a similar boat until last year when I switched
| from a modded x61s to an x220 i7 then x230 i7 w/16GB which
| I'm still using and cost under $300 on ebay. The HD4000
| iGPU is at least Vulkan capable.
|
| It's really unfortunate the imx8 SoC didn't have even an
| 8GB variant. The fact that you can get a raspberry pi with
| more memory than the Reform is such a bummer.
| elcritch wrote:
| I've read they're working on a 16gb capable nxp soc.
| That'd be more useable.
| dgregd wrote:
| I would love to see a keyboard with an ortholinear layout [1] for
| the Framework Laptop. After switch to a dactyl manuform keyboard
| it is really painful to go back to a typical staggered layout.
| Touch typing is much easier and more natural when using a good
| ortholinear layout.
|
| [1] https://mechlounge.com/interesting-ortho-ergo-keyboards/
| atemerev wrote:
| "We only deliver to the US and Canada". OK, will have to stay
| with my Macbook.
| orangepurple wrote:
| There are plenty of ways to shop in the USA and get your
| products shipped to another country. Example:
| https://www.viabox.com/
| nrp wrote:
| Just a heads up that we're only able to offer warranty
| service in countries we are shipping in.
| nrp wrote:
| We're actively building the infrastructure to launch in
| additional countries. It's a challenging logistical environment
| at the moment, but we very much built and certified the product
| to be broadly available, and we are reminded of the interest in
| that daily!
| breakingcups wrote:
| I'm already happy that you're participating in this thread,
| so don't let my question pin you down too much, but are you
| able to give some indication of when you might be able to
| share news like a provisional timeline?
| reacharavindh wrote:
| Since you are gathering community interest here, may I ask if
| there are plans or non-plans for a FrameWork laptop with
| power efficient Ryzen 5000 series CPUs?
|
| I don't need a laptop right now, but, I will prepone my plans
| and buy one right away if it existed.
| oxplot wrote:
| I'd like to give a huge shout out to nrp, founder of
| Framework, for being super active on the Framework community
| forum, here on HN and I assume in 10 other places, answering
| questions, helping with debugging issues down to nitty gritty
| technical details.
|
| For a founder, this is very unusual because there is an
| entire business to take care of and yet he finds time for all
| the above as well.
|
| Thanks Nirav.
| pa7ch wrote:
| They are also seemingly burning the midnight oil getting
| shipments out the door on time with no significant schedule
| delays. I have one on the way that was shipped out and
| picked up quite late in the night.
| lazzurs wrote:
| I know of many people waiting for that before hitting the
| order button.
|
| If you even offered the different keyboard types right now we
| can organise our own shipping and tax :)
| sneak wrote:
| What infrastructure is required other than charging extra for
| shipping? I ship stuff from the US to other countries all of
| the time.
| dagw wrote:
| Yea, say what you want about Apple, but they seem to be one of
| the few tech companies that manage to ship all their products
| in all their configurations to almost all countries.
|
| So many times I read a review for something interesting
| sounding only to find out that that version isn't sold where I
| happen to live.
| throwaway473825 wrote:
| Yeah, but Apple also charges a hefty premium outside the US.
| Just look at the prices of Apple products in the US and the
| EU, and then compare with Samsung/Google/OnePlus.
|
| Whatever makes Apple products more expensive in the EU
| doesn't appear to apply to anyone else.
| y7 wrote:
| Maybe it's related to the warranty? Apple sells AppleCare
| separately, but it's basically a warranty that's already
| guaranteed under EU consumer law. So in the EU they should
| factor this into the price.
| sneak wrote:
| I thought the EU mandate was 2 years, and AppleCare+ is 2
| additional for a total (in the USA) of 3?
| y7 wrote:
| You're right, for most EU countries it's indeed 2 years.
|
| > The Directive offers a 2-year legal guarantee of
| conformity, from the date that the item was delivered to
| the consumer. Most countries have implemented a 2-year
| guarantee of conformity but six countries apply a longer
| duration, with 4 of them taking into account the expected
| lifespan of the product.
|
| https://www.evz.de/en/shopping-internet/guarantees-and-
| warra...
| weberer wrote:
| That's most likely due to VAT adding a 17-27% tax depending
| on the country. If you check your receipt, it will show you
| what the price was before tax.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_value_added_ta
| x...
| dagw wrote:
| It's not that. A $800 iPhone and a $900 Samsung (US
| prices) will often end up costing the the same in the EU
| lrae wrote:
| So... sounds about right then?
|
| 800 US$ are 700 Euro. With 20% VAT that would be 840EUR.
| And then you have additional fees on electronics in some
| countries.
|
| That's your usual "1-to-1 conversion" (with a sometimes
| like a "50EUR premium").
| dagw wrote:
| But surely Apple and Samsung pay the same VAT, so a
| Samsung phone that costs $900 should sell for more than
| an iPhone that costs $800 if it was only VAT. Except that
| doesn't happen. The $800 iPhone costs the same (or more)
| as the $900 Samsung in Europe. Apple's relative markup
| compared to Samsung is much higher in Europe than in the
| US.
| lazzurs wrote:
| Nope. Here in Ireland where they have major offices not only
| is there no Apple retail but they only offer the Aluminium
| versions of Apple Watch. Currently no providers offer eSIM
| for Apple Watch but that shouldn't stop me buying a better
| screen.
| [deleted]
| fsflover wrote:
| You could consider https://puri.sm/products/librem-14 as an
| alternative (non-glued and upgradable battery, RAM, SSD).
| hyperstar wrote:
| I'm impressed by the (allegedly) tactile and clear keyboard
|
| https://frame.work/blog/the-keyboard
|
| but I'd be _delighted_ to see a happy-hacking style layout, where
| the arrow keys are consigned to the fn layer (which should be
| configurable; the whole keyboard could be configurable by qmk).
| It would also be nice to see an option where the trackpad is
| replaced by a foldable joystick. Maybe this way one could get rid
| of the split (arrow) key and the short f keys and the short
| escape. Think of the vi users.
| 0xdeadbeefbabe wrote:
| This discussion on coreboot looks good
| https://community.frame.work/t/free-the-ec-and-coreboot-only....
|
| How much innovation can one company do though?
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