[HN Gopher] Used car market gets even more bizarre
___________________________________________________________________
Used car market gets even more bizarre
Author : cwwc
Score : 105 points
Date : 2021-11-09 14:57 UTC (1 days ago)
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| eof wrote:
| anecdotally; the lower end of the car market doesn't really seem
| affected. prices for 10+ year old cars that aren't "nice" but are
| easily reliable with regular maintenance still seem widely
| available and cheap.
|
| tangentially; I have always seen the premium for a nice car to be
| a really low value at normal income levels.
| djrogers wrote:
| Widely available and cheap doesn't equate to 'as cheap as last
| year'.
|
| I bought a fairly well used 2006 Honda in Jan of 2020 for $5k.
| After denting the rear fender badly and putting 20k miles on
| it, it's worth $7-8k.
|
| A vehicle like that has _never_ appreciated like that. Cash for
| Clunkers had an impact on availability of $1000 beaters, but
| nothing like what we're seeing now.
| olyjohn wrote:
| I used to be able to pick up decent cars (something that needs
| a little work but runs and drives) for like $500-1000 all day
| long. Those days are gone. If it runs and drives, you're lucky
| to get it under $1500-2000.
| tobyjsullivan wrote:
| What would it look like if asset speculation hit the used car
| market? Would it look much different than this?
|
| Normally that would be a poor investment because same-car prices
| steadily trend downward. But if the market changed such that used
| car prices were increasing - say, due to a shortage of new car
| availability - then would some investors be inclined to start
| hoarding used cars?
| mpol wrote:
| If prices are increasing faster than the maintenance that is
| needed :)
|
| Hoarding used cars for a slightly long time will have them
| deteriorate somewhat. Some will have small issues, some might
| have bigger. Theoretical value might be higher, but when
| selling time comes the practical value might be a
| disappointment. Getting them ready for sale will have costs.
|
| Car dealers just go for fast profit, like they always did.
| larrydag wrote:
| Here's the flip side of that from auto lenders. They are seeing a
| huge recovery benefit from repossession of vehicle after
| chargeoff. Lenders portfolios are seeing a net benefit in
| chargeoffs which has hardly ever happened in recent history. Even
| more bizarre.
|
| https://www.yahoo.com/now/ally-financial-ally-beats-q3-12451...
| wpietri wrote:
| Wow, those are some terrible incentives. I've never had a loan,
| so maybe I misunderstand the experience. But I'd hate to owe
| money to somebody that is hoping I fail badly enough that they
| take my stuff and while keeping my money.
| nostrademons wrote:
| Usually the bank has no mechanism to alter whether you make
| payments or not. Keep making payments and they can't
| repossess the car.
|
| It'll be interesting to see what this does to the credit
| quality of _future_ borrowers, which is the only leverage the
| bank has. Secured loans on appreciating assets mean that at
| some point, the bank has an incentive to write loans that
| they _know_ are not going to be repaid, because they buy only
| part of the asset, receive a stream of cash payments for it,
| and then get the full asset anyway when the borrower
| defaults. It 's like a call option that you get paid for
| instead of paying for.
|
| Come to think of it, I wonder if this is why we got NINJA
| loans with the 05-07 housing bubble. Once housing prices
| started going up consistently enough, it becomes profitable
| to write loans to borrowers that you know are going to
| default, because you can take the house and enjoy the asset
| appreciation while getting a nice stream of cash flows in the
| process.
| mdavis6890 wrote:
| "...it becomes profitable to write loans to borrowers that
| you know are going to default, because you can take the
| house and enjoy the asset appreciation while getting a nice
| stream of cash flows in the process."
|
| Not the way it works, for two main reasons. First, people
| who owe less than the house is worth are generally not
| foreclosed on - in the worst case they just sell and keep
| whatever equity they get away with. Second, legally the
| bank can't keep any surplus. If they foreclose on your
| house, they have to sell it at auction and keep only up to
| the amount you owed. They would have to give you any
| excess. At least for houses, banks aren't allowed to profit
| from foreclosures.
| larrydag wrote:
| It's in the best interest of a bank not to repossess because
| there are operational expenses and the bank will get more
| return if the loan goes to completion.
| eof wrote:
| unless the collateral appreciates past some threshold of
| expectation
| vkou wrote:
| Aren't you on the hook for those operational expenses?
|
| The bank only loses if you default early in your loan, and
| the price of the collateral collapses.
| oasisbob wrote:
| That's insane.
|
| If only all the small US banks and credit unions held off on
| their (~2005) indirect lending strategy and saved it for now,
| it might have actually been profitable!
| Y_Y wrote:
| How can you honestly "charge off" a debt as unlikely to be
| repaid, when you are quite likely to be repaid? It seems that
| in the case of a car loan you can usually reposses the
| collateral, which recently will have held value oreven
| appreciated in the interim.
| kevstev wrote:
| Historically, car values underwent significant depreciation
| over time and loans that went delinquent were for vehicles
| that were "underwater"- their value was less than the loan.
| Its pretty much unprecedented for the value of a vehicle to
| actually increase at any point in time over its life, and how
| long this anomaly will go on for is very uncertain- another
| way to put it is that you don't change all of your process
| and accounting norms because of a temporary (at least as we
| think for now) supply issue.
| Y_Y wrote:
| > you don't change all of your process and accounting norms
| because of a temporary (at least as we think for now)
| supply issue
|
| Is this why some people stick insist on making payments by
| sending cheques through the post?
| latortuga wrote:
| Another flip side effect. My dad is a CFO at a car dealership
| and tells me that the banks are having problems due to the lack
| of cars as well. A dealership will normally float all their
| inventory on a big bank note but they basically have no cars on
| the lot to sell which means the banks underwriting those notes
| are making no money on interest. Multiply it by thousands of
| dealerships nationwide and this has big impacts on revenue to
| those banks.
| shard wrote:
| Could you clarify what this means for a layman? AIUI you are
| saying that a car dealership will borrow money from the bank
| to purchase their inventory, but nowadays with no inventory,
| banks are not getting payments from the dealers for the money
| they've borrowed. 1. With no inventory, why does the dealer
| need the money from the bank? 2. If the dealer is still
| borrowing money from the bank despite having no inventory,
| don't they still need to pay interest? I think there is
| something fundamental that I am misunderstanding here.
| skybrian wrote:
| It sounds like dealers choose how much to borrow. If they
| borrow less, banks get less interest, meaning less income,
| unless they replace it by finding other people to make
| loans to.
| mdavis6890 wrote:
| Dealers have a line of credit, like a credit card, that
| they use to purchase inventory. They pay it back as they
| sell cars, and run it up as they buy new inventory to
| replace it. So the overall loan balance roughly represents
| their current unsold inventory. No inventory means no loan
| balance, which means no interest payments to the bank.
| KiranRao0 wrote:
| This seems like a really good thing for the dealership. They
| are able to operate with ~0 inventory and ~0 inventory
| holding costs.
| speedgoose wrote:
| In Norway it's relatively normal.
|
| Plenty of used cars at normal prices and if you want a new car
| you can buy a Tesla and get it next month.
| rupi wrote:
| USA here - ordered a Tesla Model Y in July 2021. Estimated
| delivery was October 2021. A couple of weeks ago, that date
| changed to April 2022.
| speedgoose wrote:
| Yes the Tesla cars we can buy without too long wait are from
| the Chinese factory. I ordered my Model Y late August and got
| it beginning of September.
| mrfusion wrote:
| You can choose the factory?
| chrisjc wrote:
| Configuration probably dictates origin.
| wbsss4412 wrote:
| And tariffs. USMCA heavily biases car manufacturing
| towards North America.
| speedgoose wrote:
| Its not explicitly said but Long range is from China, and
| Performance is from USA.
| mrfusion wrote:
| So you can get a long range a lot sooner?
| speedgoose wrote:
| If you buy the car in Norway, yes.
| aesclepius wrote:
| Man, that's crazy how sudden this car demand surge happened.
| I was in the market for a Model Y in February 2021 and got
| mine in March.
| Digory wrote:
| So the working explanation is that the disappearance of new cars
| (due to chip shortages) has doubled the price of used cars?
|
| How long can that bubble last? Is it the same globally?
| toxik wrote:
| In northern Europe, it's business as usual. Maybe our volumes
| are so small that the market need for new cars is still met?
| pengaru wrote:
| I daily drive a beater NA Miata, and throughout the past year or
| so I keep getting harassed to sell it. In the parking lots of
| grocery stores, post office, home depot, you name it and someone
| has literally camped out waiting for me to return just so they
| can try pressure me to sell, often quite rudely too.
|
| From my perspective it's pretty crazy, the car appears neglected
| with a very rough exterior... it doesn't scream "buy me, you
| won't regret it". People are behaving desperately.
| jjav wrote:
| Two years ago you could go to craigslist and search for Miata
| and get a hundred cars for sale any day.
|
| Today, hard to find a reasonable one.
| Hamuko wrote:
| NA Miatas are becoming rarer, especially if yours is not
| modified to hell and back. And collector car prices have been
| climbing a lot recently.
| pengaru wrote:
| Sure, but mine is a ~350k mile piece of shit with a salvage
| title after someone T-boned it at low speed, and I haven't
| made any real attempt to repair that damage. Nobody in their
| right mind looks at my Miata and thinks "collector car!"
| olyjohn wrote:
| Someone wants to build an Exocet or a Miata-kart out of it.
| I think that's where a lot of them have gone.
| pengaru wrote:
| These are usually quite obviously parents with a newly
| licensed kid anxiously watching the interaction from the
| back seat.
|
| But yeah, occasionally it's a gearhead who wants to do
| something like that - it's the exception though. Those
| instances we end up talking shop, and that's kind of
| always been a thing (I've driven Miatas for over a
| decade, this is my third).
|
| The ~recent thing is the parents harassing me, it's like
| they can't find cheap first cars for their newly licensed
| children.
| culopatin wrote:
| No rust? In todays Miata market? 3k.
|
| Back in 2016, 3k was a clean sub 100k mi Miata
| jedberg wrote:
| I just priced out my minivan -- only down 20% since I bought it
| 4.5 years ago. Crazytown.
| azinman2 wrote:
| I sold my car to Carvana after buying it used 3 years later for
| $700 less than I had bought it for, and that was months ago.
| symlinkk wrote:
| Used car prices have doubled, yet the "official" inflation figure
| is only 6%?
| erehweb wrote:
| The average selling price may have doubled, but this is
| affected by the mix of cars that get sold, as outlined in
| https://publish.manheim.com/en/services/consulting/used-vehi...
| - correcting for that says prices went up 38% Y/Y
| baggy_trough wrote:
| Who are you going to believe, your wallet or a government stat
| laundered by bureaucrats who want it to be as low as possible?
| golemiprague wrote:
| Because the media supports the current government and doesn't
| want to make it look bad, the actual inflation is probably 20%
| or even more.
| alphabettsy wrote:
| It's based on weighted numbers.
| standardUser wrote:
| This isn't macroeconomic inflationary pressure, this is simply
| a shortage.
| wbsss4412 wrote:
| What percentage of your personal monthly budget gets spent
| buying a used car?
|
| That is, not in servicing loan payments, but actually buying
| cars.
|
| Inflation is weighted for this reason.
| symlinkk wrote:
| It's probably the number 2 most expensive monthly payment the
| average person has beyond a mortgage. What's your point?
| wbsss4412 wrote:
| "Not servicing loan payments, actually buying cars".
|
| The average family isn't but a whole new (used, but new to
| them) car every month. The percentage of people actually
| buying cars right now is a small fraction of the
| population. For everyone else, the price they bought their
| car was set when they bought it, and inflation has no
| affect on their loan payments.
| Hamuko wrote:
| Apparently the Honda e is bucking the trend. I could buy a brand
| new Honda e Advance from Honda for 39 886 EUR, or I could buy a
| 2020 model with 2000 km on the odometer from a car dealership for
| 29 800 EUR.
|
| I'm guessing its subpar battery range doesn't do wonders for
| values.
| dionidium wrote:
| I explored trading in my car a couple months ago and got
| lowballed by the dealership. I wonder if it's time to try again.
| _fat_santa wrote:
| If you have another car you can use then it's a good deal. The
| problem now is any profits made from selling your car will be
| eaten up by the inflated price whichever car you are trying to
| buy.
| dionidium wrote:
| I don't have another car, but I have a flexible remote work
| arrangement, so I might be able to float a few months without
| one, if trading my 2017 for a 2021 makes sense financially
| (i.e. if the increase in the value of my used car offsets
| enough of the purchase price of a new car to make it worth
| it).
| 1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote:
| Anyone have more details on specifically what these chips are and
| what they are used for in the "modern" automobile.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| Anyone know if this is happening with used cargo vans, e.g. the
| Amazon-branded delivery vans, or something larger e.g. the
| smallest Ryder box trucks?
|
| I was considering getting a new or used pickup in the next year
| or so, but one of those babies would serve me even better.
| RandallBrown wrote:
| I've been trying to buy a new cargo van from Ford since May.
| They originally told me it would be ready in November but then
| there were so many orders mine got pushed to the next model
| year. I'm hoping to get it before the end of winter...
|
| I'm not super sure about the used market but these vans have
| been _very_ in demand for things like camper conversion.
| stillbourne wrote:
| I bought my car, a 2015 Toyota Rav4, in 2017 for 18.5k It is now
| has a resale value of 20.6k.
| dlmiller wrote:
| My car died, needing a new engine, so I was forced to get one in
| October. I usually only buy used, but prices are so inflated it
| didn't seem worth the premium. Used 2017-2020 Toyota Rav4's with
| 30-60k miles were the same price as a new 2021 model, if you
| could get one.
|
| I knew it was bad, but I was shocked of how bad it was. I went to
| multiple mega dealerships with 500-1000 cars that were all spoken
| for. Most had 0 new cars available.
| devilbunny wrote:
| I've done significant work to a 20-year-old car recently. Over
| $4k. It's easy to justify when you consider how much replacing
| it right now would cost.
| kybernetyk wrote:
| Same here. For just 10k euros more I got a current year new
| model vs a used 2016.
|
| Used car market is crazy.
| bogota wrote:
| That doesn't seem that crazy to me.
| toxik wrote:
| Yeah, 10kEUR is certainly not change.
| Syonyk wrote:
| At that point, why not just put a new (junkyard from a wrecked
| one) engine in?
| dlmiller wrote:
| $7,000 to put a new engine in a 2011 GMC Terrain that was
| worth maybe $8000. The engine was recalled by GM for excess
| oil consumption, my engine had the fixed installed and still
| died 30k miles later.
|
| I went with a new one because that particular vehicle ended
| up costing me more monthly than a car payment.
| hourislate wrote:
| Stop buying shitty GM's. I learned my lesson back in in the
| late 90's when I couldn't keep a GMC Sonoma running long
| enough to sell it (was like 3 years old). In 2000 I became
| part of the Toyota family (worked for FORD at the time) and
| never bought anything else since.
|
| The 2 Toyota and 1 Lexus we own are between 14-11 years old
| and look and run like they came off the assembly line
| yesterday (all 3 were bought used). I figure I am still
| good for another 5 years minimum on all of them.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| Lifetime TCO is a thing.
|
| If you bought a Bubble Taurus in '99 and fed it a new
| transmission every 100k you'd probably come out the same
| after adjusting for inflation between then and now.
|
| I deal exclusively in shitboxes that are about 10yr
| beyond what the demographics most represented. Anyone
| peddling a "just buy a particular brand and you'll be all
| set" narrative is just wrong. If you said "be rich enough
| to do maintenance on the book schedule and not abuse your
| vehicles" you'd be on to something. There's a reason
| everyone wants a used grandma car.
| jdmichal wrote:
| Funnily enough, my first car was a used grandma '99
| Taurus. I sold it to a family member, and it's still
| driving.
| WkndTriathlete wrote:
| That depends on how much you value your time. I have had
| Hondas for the past 25 years that have not required major
| repairs for _anything_. Worst was having to get the
| automatic transmission solenoid replaced on a Pilot with
| 240k+ miles on it. In your world that would be 6
| transmissions over three cars over 25 years; there 's no
| way I would make that trade, since those 6 transmission
| failures represent significant lost time (opportunity and
| time costs when the car breaks down, getting it back and
| forth to the repair shop, etc., etc.)
| olyjohn wrote:
| Eh... my anecdote is that I know multiple people with GM
| vehicles with over 200,000 miles that run fine. And my
| 2007 GMC Sierra is still like new, and should have way
| more than 5 years of life left in it.
|
| Your Toyotas probably have well more than 5 years left in
| them too. Unless you're someone who replaces cars at
| 100,000 miles, which a lot of people do.
| mytdi wrote:
| I think OP's advice is good, that's what I would do, but I
| think for this particular vehicle it's not a good idea to
| replace the engine with a used one from a junkyard, because
| they have a lot of engine problems and the replacement
| engine wouldn't last long either. A friend of mine found
| out the hard way. Other vehicles though, I think it would
| be worth it replacing the engine with a used one in good
| condition.
| clavalle wrote:
| I was in the same boat.
|
| I usually avoid buying new but used cars are nearly the same
| price as new (if you can find a dealer that hasn't done
| ridiculous 'market adjustments').
|
| So we bought new. We had to buy a car that was just off the
| delivery truck before the dealership had it inspected. The one
| we'd looked at two days before was long gone and they expected
| the one we bought to be sold the next day.
|
| My neighbor traded in his truck for more than he paid for it
| two years ago. It's bonkers.
|
| Mechanics are about to make a killing.
| jiveturkey wrote:
| Why are dealer market adjustments ridiculous? We live and
| breathe market forces. No one ever, ever, complains about
| market adjustments in their favor.
| SilasX wrote:
| It's the opposite:
|
| Normal market: "this product costs $2.60."
|
| 'Wasn't it like, $2.10 a week ago?'
|
| "Yes it was."
|
| Cars:
|
| "This car is $26k. Oh, also you have to pay a $2k market
| adjustment, because man things are just crazy."
|
| That is, in normal markets, _you just raise the price_ ,
| you don't need to refer to an explicit "market adjustment",
| especially not as a random addon.
| sokoloff wrote:
| On a used car, they do as you describe. On a new car, the
| sticker generally starts with something like
| "manufacturer's suggested base price" then various
| options, then local adjustments. You can't just claim
| that the manufacturer's suggested base price is $2K
| higher than it actually is.
| greedo wrote:
| This is an industry famous for charging a small fortune
| for BS undercoatings. For Doc fees, Nitrogen air in
| tires, destination fees etc.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| > My neighbor traded in his truck for more than he paid for
| it two years ago.
|
| Sold my 2018 Toyota Tacoma pickup to Carmax for over $32K. I
| probably paid more than that a few years ago when I bought it
| new, but I thought it would have depreciated much more than
| that.
|
| It's nice on the selling end.
| lastofthemojito wrote:
| The narrative earlier in the pandemic was that the reduction
| in driving was brutal for mechanics as it meant a reduction
| in need for auto maintenance and repair. Fewer of us are
| staying at home these days, but it looks like we're still not
| quite back to pre-pandemic levels of driving[0].
|
| I'd imagine it's probably a bit of a mixed bag for mechanics,
| depending on what sort of vehicles they specialize in, where
| they're located, etc.
|
| 0: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M12MTVUSM227NFWA
| csteubs wrote:
| Might be anecdotal but on top of that, I've noticed that
| many car owners who previously only had services performed
| by a shop began doing their own maintenance. A friend who
| works as a service manager at CarMax had similar
| observations in conversations with some customers,
| including one DIY-er who forgot to torque their oil drain
| bolt correctly, lost the oil, and is now the recipient of a
| refurbished engine.
|
| I had only done light maintenance/upgrade work on my cars
| prior to the pandemic. In the last year I've replaced a
| rear main seal, front + rear rotors + pads on all my cars,
| new control arms, shocks, and struts on a sedan, a ton of
| electrical work, cold air upgrades, every single fluid
| drained and filled, etc. DIY content on YouTube is getting
| to the point where a middle schooler can fab a car from
| scratch given enough time and motivation. YMMV (literally).
| sokoloff wrote:
| Jumping from only light maintenance to changing a rear
| main seal is quite the leap!
| csteubs wrote:
| No better feeling though! Especially when running the
| numbers post-fix (insert CS joke here) and comparing to
| shop quotes. I keep spreadsheets for two cars and an
| older jet ski and I've saved ~$12k this year alone by
| wrenching solo assuming $100/hr = standard labor rate.
| I've learned a TON of cross-functional skills, have full
| control over the parts and repair, and it's just a feel-
| good way to step away from my desk when things slow down
| at work.
|
| I remind myself of the the 5-digit savings whenever I'm
| in line at Harbor Freight... which is often.
| baggy_trough wrote:
| Why do you think those market adjustments are ridiculous?
| Isn't that how supply and demand will adjust?
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| If you are adversely affected by price changes, then price
| changes ridiculous, absurd, and ripoffs.
|
| If you are beneficially affected by price changes, then
| price changes are a result of supply and demand.
| kspacewalk2 wrote:
| >Mechanics are about to make a killing.
|
| If you're a mechanic and already have plenty of business, I
| imagine it's a tough call: do you jack up your hourly rates
| and take advantage of the windfall, at the risk of customer
| loyalty in the future? This insanity will pass, after all.
| vkou wrote:
| Keep rates steady for old customers, raise rates for new
| ones.
| NDizzle wrote:
| Will the insanity pass, though? There's talk of putting
| cameras in all cars starting in 2026 to prevent... drunk
| driving[1]?! What's next?
|
| I can't be alone in never buying a car that has this
| feature.
|
| [1] https://www.latimes.com/world-
| nation/story/2021-11-09/congre...
| noduerme wrote:
| I still won't even buy a car with GPS. Seems I'm in a
| vanishing minority. It won't pass, because people born
| after 1990 have spent their adult lives in a world with
| surveillance machines in their pockets at all times.
| Their cars are just big phones. By 2040 you probably
| won't even be allowed to drive your own vehicle.
| hyperman1 wrote:
| To be honest, not being allowed to drive your own vehicle
| is probably a good thing.
|
| See e.g. https://www.cdc.gov/injury/features/global-road-
| safety/index.... From the first few paragraphs:
| Road traffic crashes are a leading cause of death in the
| United States for people aged 1-54 More
| than half of those killed are pedestrians, motorcyclists,
| or cyclists.
|
| Drivers risk other people's lives, hence, other people
| have a right to demand safety from drivers' actions.
| Supposing computers do get better than humans in the
| future, why not just stop humans from doing this
| dangerous activity?
|
| If someone wants to do some old school driving in 2040,
| go have fun on a private racetrack or whatever. You can
| even ignore speed limits.
| zizee wrote:
| It does wrestle a lot of control from the individual
| though. It's not hard to imagine possible abuses of
| power. Tracking everyone's movements is just the start.
| What if some government decided to deny service to
| someone? Or not let certain groups travel to certain
| places. Imagine opportunities for havoc due to hacking
|
| I'd still like driverless cars, but privacy and freedom
| of movement rights protections need to be thought about.
| postsantum wrote:
| I am sure it would work great with the upcoming
| quarantine of 2038. Fellow citizen, for your own good,
| your car has been geofenced to your local grocery shop
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| I have news for you: not getting a car with _navigation_
| doesn 't mean squat.
|
| Any vehicle sold with telematics _available_ not only has
| GPS, but that telematics system is feeding the
| manufacturer data from the vehicle, including your
| location.
|
| This happens whether you're subscribing to the telematics
| service or not. It's always on. Some vehicles do it
| multiple times an hour or more.
| OnlineGladiator wrote:
| GPS is a one-way communication. It's really no different
| from radio in that regard (a signal sent from far away
| and you have an antenna to read the signal). Unless
| there's also a cellular modem in your car (which pretty
| much every modern car has today so I'm not pretending
| this is unusual) it's impossible for others to monitor
| your location. You can simply disable the cellular modem
| and enjoy using GPS without anyone else knowing where you
| are.
|
| Also, those cellular modems in cars tend to use older
| technology (this is fairly standard for the auto industry
| in general since there is such a long regulatory approval
| process for anything). My 2018 model year car will no
| longer be able to communicate remotely in January 2022
| because the cellular network is being deprecated.
| emaginniss wrote:
| Right, but they can access your car later and see all the
| places you've been.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Seems like a futile effort to avoid cars with GPS if you
| carry a device around that is connected to a mobile
| network. Is there anyone that does not carry around a
| dumb phone, if not a smartphone?
| oceanplexian wrote:
| This brings up an interesting point which is why I
| recently bought a used car. The late 90s, 00s are
| probably the last road-legal vehicles that won't spy on
| you. I wouldn't put it past lawmakers to make phoning
| home mandatory like they did with backup cameras. I'm
| guessing this will also cause prices to skyrocket since
| there is a sizable minority of people like us who will
| refuse to buy a car that's plugged into the Internet.
| Wistar wrote:
| A friend owns a high line/niche used car dealership and his
| service shop, who has a legendary mechanic, has not
| increased rates at all but just got more selective about
| the service work they are doing. Also, effectively no new
| service customers as they are booked solid for months.
| fshbbdssbbgdd wrote:
| One compromise is jacking up rates for new customers only.
| barrenko wrote:
| Yes it will, just like real estate prices.
|
| Joke.
| ska wrote:
| Perhaps you just get pickier about the jobs you take.
| randycupertino wrote:
| My mechanic does this! He loves to work on classic cars
| as a passion project and has a bunch of classics in his
| lot that he's slowly working on, however if you call him
| now, his voicemail says, "Please note if you are calling
| to inquire work on a model over 20 years old the waiting
| list is 5-6 months."
|
| He's a great guy- if anyone is in Bay Area and needs a
| good honest mechanic for foreign or domestic, shout out
| to Jack at Tom and Jacks in San Bruno!
| olyjohn wrote:
| I tried to get in for an alignment a couple of months
| ago. I'm used to making an appointment 1 or 2 days out
| for this sort of thing. All the local shops were booked
| out over a month. I eventually found a place that had an
| opening, which ended up being a chain... But I couldn't
| drive my car for 2 weeks with a bad alignment while I
| wait for the appointment.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| That message does nice double duty as a PC way of saying
| poors need not bother shopping him for a quote to replace
| something on their '99 Grand Caravan.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| IIUC, you're implying that that mechanic is disdainful of
| poor customers, and that this just provides convenient
| political cover.
|
| If so, I'm not sure why you'd assume that. It seems more
| likely to me that the mechanic is simply choosing his
| work based on personal interest and perhaps
| profitability. I don't see why we'd ask anything more
| than that from him.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| I'm not assuming. Everyone even remotely close to the
| industry knows that mechanics don't like the people who
| want to do the bare minimum amount of work all the time
| and that fairly strongly correlates to "poors". Of course
| given the choice a mechanic would rather do an oil change
| on a '15 4Runner owned by some yuppie he can upsell a
| cabin air filter to than do a timing set on a '03 Outback
| for someone who'll decline the water pump that they
| traditionally try and sell with it.
| greedo wrote:
| Eh, it also correlates to "cheapskates." I know a lot of
| people who make FAANG money who do the bare minimum in
| home/auto repairs. Just cheap SOBs.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I would have thought 4runners were disproportionately
| bought by people who want to fix the car themselves.
| bityard wrote:
| If you were even remotely close to the industry, you
| would know full well that the older a car is, the more of
| a pain in the ass is to repair. It only takes one rusty
| bolt snapping off to turn a 30 minute job into a 3 hour
| one. When that happens, the mechanic has to eat those
| extra hours. They don't get to crawl back to the customer
| and beg for triple the price. The shop owner certainly
| isn't going to pony up the difference. It (effectively)
| comes right out of their paycheck.
|
| I feel that the instant knee-jerk accusation of
| discrimination against someone you never even met says
| quite a bit about you.
| raisedbyninjas wrote:
| It's not just inflated labor pricing. Customers are willing
| to make more extensive repairs because it's more economical
| than buying a replacement.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| I noticed a similar dynamic with general contractors /
| handymen a few years ago.
|
| There was a multi-year period where the demand far exceeded
| supply, but they didn't seem to adjust their billing rates
| accordingly.
|
| I never got a clear answer as to why. The one guy I talked
| to seemed scarred by a very demand-limited market some
| years prior, so maybe he was fearful of making _any_
| changes that might leave him under-employed.
| greedo wrote:
| I had the exact opposite occur. The missus wanted a patio
| installed (pavers or bluestone) and the quote we got from
| one guy was 10k over what others were bidding. He didn't
| even submit any drawings/diagrams, just told us the
| quote. Obviously didn't want the job.
|
| Same thing happened with a flooring guy who could have
| done $30k worth of work. He kept claiming he'd send us a
| bid but eventually ghosted us.
|
| Tradespeople can skip doing the hard/less-profitable jobs
| right now while the market is hot.
| satronaut wrote:
| I bought a tesla about a year ago. I only had to wait a week
| for it. 0 down and something like 2% APR. I feel like I
| really lucked out there
| hedgehog wrote:
| I bought a RAV4 over the summer. There was no inventory (hint:
| dealer web sites will lie to you about what's actually
| available to purchase), I ended up reserving one that hadn't
| been shipped to the dealer yet and waiting for around a month
| for it to arrive. Autotrader shows zero of the same trim for
| sale used within 500 miles so not even sure what it would sell
| for.
| Loughla wrote:
| Bought a new Subaru Impreza this spring. We had been saving
| for a couple years for my (close enough) dream car (wanted
| the WRX STI, but that maintenance is a real bitch).
|
| We have now had 4 calls from the dealership where we bought
| it offering to buy it back for _thousands of dollars more
| than we paid this spring_. So far their best offer was $6500
| more than what we paid.
|
| It's outrageous.
| aeturnum wrote:
| My car isn't dead yet, but it's around the time I would look at
| buying another used car. I bought a used motorcycle instead and
| am splitting miles.
| willis936 wrote:
| My SO's Subaru Outback's engine died recently. It would be
| $5000 to replace it. Not being able to justify the cost when it
| had an engine replacement 2 years ago, was already 9 years old,
| had 160k miles on it, and us not needing a second car, we
| decided to just sell it. A dealer bought it for $6500 knowing
| that the engine was shot. I was expecting like half of that
| with an optimistic estimate.
| mdoms wrote:
| An engine replaced 2 years ago should absolutely not fail and
| should be under warranty.
| olyjohn wrote:
| It was likely replaced with another used engine. No
| mechanic is gonna warranty that for 2 years, and I doubt
| they'd even warranty a new engine for 2 years unless they
| rebuilt it themselves. You'd have to take that up with the
| engine manufacturer / refurbisher or the person who sold
| it.
| selimnairb wrote:
| It's a Subaru, they blow through engines. A relative had
| a 2014 Forester and it had two engines replaced under
| warranty. This is apparently a known problem with a
| certain recent version of their 4 cyl. boxer engines.
| gremloni wrote:
| I bought a new car about a year and a half ago. With 3 years 0%
| interest, I put the entire amount in an index fund and have
| been paying installments. At this point I've paid ~18,000 but
| because of market profits and taxes it has only been around
| $8000 I've really ended up paying.
| neogodless wrote:
| All I can offer is an anecdote. I have a 2015 Mazda 3 (top trim
| level, with 34,000 miles on it.) Purchased 4.5 years ago with 8k
| on it for just under $20k.
|
| Well over a year ago, I started checking KBB.com values to either
| trade it in or sell it. Back then, trade was close to $12k, and
| private party was a bit over $13k.
|
| I've checked several times since then, and the price has
| basically grown and grown. As of today, it's showing $18k trade-
| in and $18.5k private party.
|
| As little as I drive, I'm very tempted to sell. But at the same
| time, I could drive this car for the next 10 years easily. With
| remote work being a permanent fixture for me, I don't really need
| the car, but I'm still a bit emotionally attached to it. But am I
| more emotionally attached than I would be to $18,000?
|
| I am curious, though, how well KBB aligns with real world
| transactions and what dealers are willing to pay. (It's always
| been a hassle negotiating dealers to give you anywhere close to
| KBB trade-in values.)
| peteradio wrote:
| You are in a good position to wait for a sweet private party
| deal. I'm not sure if you will ever get KBB at a dealer but
| many private buyers will use it as a reference point so you
| should be able to get close to that asking as long as you have
| assessed its condition properly.
| bityard wrote:
| If you live in the rust belt, I'd advise to sell it within a
| couple years. I had two Mazdas they both died of rusted-out
| frames while the engines and interiors were still perfectly
| fine.
|
| If you're in a dry climate, it'll last a very long time as long
| as you keep up on maintenance.
| mead5432 wrote:
| My wife was in a similar position. 2013 Mazda 3 base trim. She
| was going to sell it early 2020 because we didn't need the
| second car and KBB said ~$4k.
|
| We decided to actually get rid of it last weekend and KBB said
| $6500-$7500 for trade-in. There were some cosmetic issues with
| it so figured we'd be on the low end. Not wanting to deal with
| posting it to craigslist and coordinate visits, we asked if the
| dealership would purchase it. They offered us $6k so reasonably
| close.
| axiosgunnar wrote:
| What would you do after selling? Go by foot? Or buy another car
| at similarly inflated prices?
| capableweb wrote:
| They said themselves that they don't really need the car
| anyways. Is walking (or bicycling) to places really such a
| foreign concept to so many people?
| neogodless wrote:
| As I hinted, I work from home, as does my spouse. We could
| share her car, as we often do now. My car is just a
| luxury/convenience item at this point, not a necessity.
|
| (Though I have an irrational desire to eventually get a truck
| to help with my chores around the property. But no rush on
| that.)
| llamataboot wrote:
| I am out of the country for a few months and was going to sell
| back my car but decided that at 0% financing it was actually an
| investment to let it sit. Not often does a used car become an
| appreciating asset, but here we are.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| A huge price inflation in ICE is perfect for making EVs more
| affordable from a perception standpoint.
|
| When the drivetrain cost drops well under ICE (pre-inflation,
| which should happen with Tesla in about a year depending on 4680
| production) and charging takes off, ICEs will look completely
| noncompetitive.
|
| If solid state batteries become feasible and/or LFP hits the
| magic density number of around 200-250 wh/kg? Look out. The
| bottom is going to fall out.
| 0xFreebie wrote:
| Might their be some need to legislate chip allocation?
|
| What would sink GDP more: one year of no new cars, or one year of
| no new phones? Which would have the greater domino effect on the
| economy?
|
| Because auto manufacturers are such low margin, they can't buy
| chips reserved by monopoly businesses. But what happens when
| people can't afford a new phone because they can't get to work?
| nemothekid wrote:
| I'm not sure that would help at all; the issue isn't that Apple
| used up all the capacity, it's that the auto makers scaled down
| a process that needs months to scale up.
| RC_ITR wrote:
| The real problem will be when supply normalizes, used cars return
| to their sub-20k wholesale price, and a bunch of people are
| underwater on bad loans for (once again) depreciating assets.
|
| Have fun with that everyone!
| _fat_santa wrote:
| I bought a 2009 4Runner back in March for $15k. Back then $15k
| would buy you the nicest 4th Generation (03-09) 4Runner. Now days
| that seems to be the average asking price, most 4Runners from
| that generation are going for at least $12k (with over 200k
| miles) and the nicest ones (with low 100k miles) are fetching
| over $20k.
|
| That's 15k to 20k for a car that is 11 years old at it's youngest
| and mileage under 150k is considered "low mileage"
| skt5 wrote:
| 4Runners are notorious for holding their resale value well
| since they're known to be very reliable vehicles that can run
| 400k miles+ if you take care of them. You can put Land Cruisers
| in this category too.
| AutumnCurtain wrote:
| 09 Accord with 70k miles, bought in 2012 for 15k. Appraised in
| September 2021 at $6800 at Carmax and then sold to them in
| November 2021 for $7900. Dealership had offered $5000 for it in
| 2020.
| hermanradtke wrote:
| I found a 2008 4Runner v6 engine with 4 wheel drive some years
| back. People ask me all the time to sell and I never will
| because that platform is so solid.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Does the 4 in 4Runner not mean they all have 4 wheel drive?
| arh68 wrote:
| Nope! Many are 2WD (RWD), perhaps even most depending on
| the area. Some are full-time 4WD, but many have the manual
| 4WD selector 2H-4H-4L.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Interesting. I assumed they all had the 4WD selector.
| [deleted]
| OldHand2018 wrote:
| One of the other oddities of this market is that prices for
| "normal" cars have increased at a higher rate than prices for
| "upmarket" cars.
|
| There is now some pricing overlap that never used to be there.
| beh9540 wrote:
| I noticed the same thing - Nissan and Infiniti models that are
| basically the same chassis but with fancier features going for
| the same price. Infiniti was lower than MSRP but Nissan was
| above.
| nostrademons wrote:
| Interesting that we had the same effect for housing (at least
| in the Bay Area) during and immediately after the pandemic. Hot
| zip codes like San Francisco, Palo Alto, Menlo Park, Mountain
| View, Portola Valley, Woodside, etc. actually fell. Second-tier
| suburbs like the mid-peninsula, Sunnyvale, Fremont, Berkeley,
| Oakland, El Cerrito, etc. exploded.
|
| I suspect that it's a function of shortages. When there are not
| enough goods to go around at the high end, some fraction of
| those buyers get displaced to the next tier down. They keep
| their high-end incomes and ability to pay, though, and bid
| against each other so that the next tier of goods becomes
| almost as expensive.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| Someone in the market for a new Porsche can probably wait.
| Someone in the market for a new Kia probably can't.
| avn2109 wrote:
| This is interesting, can you give some examples?
| lastofthemojito wrote:
| It's interesting to browse Carvana - many of their listings
| include a link to a window sticker, which includes the
| original MSRP.
|
| Some normal cars, especially ones in high demand like the Kia
| Telluride, are quite marked up. Here's an almost-new
| Telluride listed for $46,990, but if you look at the window
| sticker, the MSRP when new was $35,770.
| https://www.carvana.com/vehicle/1936818
|
| One the other hand, the Mercedes GLC isn't at the top of most
| people's lists. Here's an almost-new one listed for $49,990.
| According to the window sticker, original MSRP was $51,125.
| https://www.carvana.com/vehicle/2059912
|
| MSRPs $15k apart, but now listed for a just a $3k difference.
| OldHand2018 wrote:
| I had an article that had a big list, but unfortunately I
| can't find it any more. You can do some web searches and see
| that the brands with the largest price gains are "normal"
| while the brands with the smallest price gains are "luxury"
| cars.
|
| You may do best with some anecdotal evidence, however.
|
| I moved from the city to the country this year and needed to
| buy a 2nd car to get me to/from the train station once work
| went back in person. We were targeted for an October return,
| so my plan was to buy a cheap used car starting around July.
| I quickly found that cheap used cars don't exist, but
| certainly the ones that were the least overpriced were luxury
| makes, which I associated with concerns over long-term
| reliability - but I now think that was incorrect.
|
| Once I gave up on used cars, I started looking at new cars.
| "Normal" dealerships were an incredible pain, especially once
| they found out that I was not going to trade in the car I
| arrived in. They all wanted high prices above sticker price,
| long waits, all sorts of games with add-on packages, etc. The
| two closest dealerships to me were Mercedes and Audi, and
| when I went to them I found no games, no markups, no giant
| crush of buyers clogging everything up, etc. I ended up with
| an Audi Q5 at ~$2k below sticker price (~$46k), the same
| price range I was being quoted for a Honda Ridgeline (well
| over sticker - and not even the top model).
|
| In normal times it probably would have been $5k below
| sticker, but whatever. The return to office got delayed again
| - maybe early 2022 - so it now just sits in the garage
| getting dusty. Still has the new car smell.
| el_benhameen wrote:
| As another poster noted, Kia is a particularly good example.
| I am trying to buy a Kia suv and would normally have thought
| of it as a mid- to lower-level consumer brand, but there's
| insane markups and competition for them right now. The
| Sorento tends to be marked up $3-8k over msrp in the bay
| area, and I've seen the Telluride marked up $10k+. I went to
| test drive a Telluride; the first one was bought as I was
| getting in and the new owner shouted me out of the car, and
| the salesperson told me to decide whether I wanted the second
| one before I got back or he'd have it sold. Anecdotal, but he
| told me that folks who would usually go for a Range Rover
| like the style, so they're happy to pay $60k for a marked up
| Kia versus $100k for whatever else they would have bought.
| boringg wrote:
| Is this across all makes and models?
| acd wrote:
| It would be interesting if house and car prices counted when
| reporting inflation figures.
| alphabettsy wrote:
| They do afaik.
|
| https://www.bls.gov/cpi/factsheets/used-cars-and-trucks.htm
|
| There are different CPIs and debate over accuracy.
| baq wrote:
| housing and rent is ~1/3 of CPI. used cars are ~2.5%.
| speeder wrote:
| Anything that depends on Silicon right now is heavily warped.
|
| For example my GPU used is seemly now more valuable than I paid
| for it new, I will soon attempt to sell it.
|
| Meanwhile new GPUs area crazy expensive too, people like to blame
| miners but even GPUs terrible for mining are crazy expensive, I
| actually then considered mining to pay a new GPU, only to find
| out that mining is not being too profitable either, the most
| profitable GPU I could find visiting mining calculators would be
| whatever one in my country would take me 2 YEARS to pay off, so I
| doubt miners are actually that hot for GPUs...
|
| I also need a SSD ( don't have any, I still use HDDs), found out
| my mobo has poor suport for one.
|
| Calculated price for new computer assembled from parts, found out
| it is not even POSSIBLE to build one, a lot of parts are 100% out
| of stock, for example every single website I entered has mobos
| with AMD X570 chipsets sold out, sound cards, even crap 5 USD
| ones to plug on USB? sold out. SSDs bigger than 500gb? Sold out.
| GPUs? Mostly sold out excepting really crap ones (those tiny
| boards that fit in a 1x slot) or really good ones (those that
| cost as much as a motorcycle).
|
| CPUs? A bunch of them sold out too, one I actually saw with
| plenty of stock is EPYC 7742 that has the same price as a SUV
| here O.o (I am not even sure what someone would use that CPU
| for... seriously what you do with 128 threads???)
|
| Also my wife wanted a TV (we didn't had one, we were using a
| borrowed one). We visited a lot of stores before we found one in
| stock, and when we found it and purchased it, it triggered
| multiple stores from the same franchise to start to angrily
| message each other arguing about who should have the last pieces
| in their storefront...
| traceddd wrote:
| I agree it's shortages and not really miners to primarily blame
| for the GPU issues... but the type of mining you are doing is
| not the same as professional miners. There is tons of demand.
| gigel82 wrote:
| GPUs are bad, CPUs are getting better, but the rest (except for
| RAM during mid-2020) are in plenty supply... I'm also looking
| for a SSD and there's quite a few options going on special
| (well below MSRP) these days. I'm waiting for Black Friday to
| pull the trigger, but maybe I shouldn't if things continue
| going this route.
|
| FWIW, I just extended the lease on my Leaf for the 2nd 6-month
| term because there is simply no new Leaf in stock anywhere
| within 100 miles of Seattle; at this rate, I might as well buy
| it out (even though when I got, I negotiated for a great
| monthly rate and didn't care about the residual).
| bentcorner wrote:
| I realize this is just an anecdote, but I replaced the
| motherboard for my PC (an HP Z420) and it was dirt cheap IMO
| ($50). I have no idea what a fair market price for it is but
| it's perfectly reasonable.
|
| You can find tons of similar models like my PC for sale on ebay
| for dirty cheap and they are perfectly acceptable for home use.
|
| No, they will not sip power like an M1 or pair well with a RTX
| 3090 but they will do everything else just fine.
|
| That said, I think it's only because the demand hasn't reached
| this low yet. But there's still a fair amount of supply left
| and it's a mixed blessing that the last few years hasn't seen
| drastic CPU performance gains that hasn't yet been stripped
| away by software, so anything even a decade old could be
| suitable, depending on your use case.
| andrewmunsell wrote:
| The MSRP for my Tesla Model Y, which I got May 2020 and has 17k
| miles now, was ~$54k. For kicks I asked Vroom for a quote and
| they were willing to pay $61.5k in my area... If this weren't my
| only car, I would probably be taking them up on it.
| grubbs wrote:
| Carmax was willing to pay a couple grand more than I paid brand
| new for my 6-speed manual Golf Alltrack (10k miles).
| mrfusion wrote:
| I found the key to getting a new car is being flexible with the
| make and model. I found a few males that had a nearly reasonable
| level of inventory. They still wouldn't negotiate price but at
| least I got a vehicle.
| atarian wrote:
| So is this a good time to sell my car if I don't really use it or
| should I hold onto it?
| jzymbaluk wrote:
| Probably the best time in history to sell a car you don't need
| obmelvin wrote:
| I think it depends on how long you can wait until you would
| need another car.
|
| Yeah, you can potentially lose little to none in depreciation
| (or gain in some situations) selling your car currently. If you
| have another car or just don't need one, can be quite nice to
| get great value + reduce your insurance/gas etc. But if you
| will need another car again in 12 months I think it's a bit
| unclear whether it's worth it & where the market will be
| (granted - i'm no market analyst). If it's no issue to wait 24+
| months I definitely think it's an amazing time to sell cars
| that get little use.
| codegeek wrote:
| For sure. My 2010 used Acura has never been valued so high even
| though I am not looking to sell.
| syshum wrote:
| My truck is worth more today then when I bought it 4 years ago...
| Crazy that automobiles are now an appreciating asset...
| culopatin wrote:
| Are you accounting for inflation?
| carabiner wrote:
| My truck, a 2015 Tacoma, is worth $4k less than what I bought
| it for 3 years ago. So totally normal depreciation in my case.
| nathancahill wrote:
| Worth to whom? Have you listed it for sale? The market for
| used Tacomas and 4Runners is off the hook.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Someone left a post it note on my friends 2002 4Runner with
| their phone number in case my friend wanted to sell it. In
| northeast USA, after 20 years of salted winter roads.
| carabiner wrote:
| Carvana. Do you think it'd be much different if I tried
| listing it on Craigslist?
| Domenic_S wrote:
| Very much yes. Tacos have a cult following and were
| somewhat tough to get decently optioned models of even
| pre-pandemic. I would not be surprised in the _least_ if
| it's really worth more than you paid.
| nathancahill wrote:
| Besides the advice in the other response, doing a search
| for your model across different websites should give you
| an idea of what they're listing for.
| lastofthemojito wrote:
| I entertained the idea of selling my '16 Mazda6 during
| all this madness so I filled out the online appraisal
| forms for Carvana, CarMax and Vroom. CarMax's offer was
| the highest - more than I paid for the car in 2018.
| Carvana and Vroom's offers were a bit lower. If you get
| serious about selling, you should obviously get multiple
| offers.
| carabiner wrote:
| Interedasting. I just tried Carmax, Vroom, and KBB.
| Carmax gave $16k (so about what I originally paid), Vroom
| gave $12k about the same as Carvana. KBB said it was
| worth $17k.
| post_break wrote:
| A tacoma is one of the few vehicles that don't depreciate. My
| 2017 Chevy colorado I just offloaded for 3k less than I paid
| essentially, that's crazy.
| mrfusion wrote:
| I wonder why their lease prices don't reflect the low
| depreciation?
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| Because why would they when they can just not and make
| even more money.
|
| It all makes sense when you realize that luxury car brand
| economics apply to pretty much every Toyota (other than
| arguably whatever their most subcompact hatch offering of
| the year is) because that's who their buyer demographics
| are.
| technothrasher wrote:
| A quick look has the three year lease residual values on
| a Tacoma in the 75-80% range. That's higher than other
| trucks in its class (such as the Chevy Colorado at like
| 64%). With seemingly similar money factors and sticker
| prices, that will absolutely reflect in a monthly lease
| payment.
| [deleted]
| davidw wrote:
| This is exactly what we've done to the housing market in the
| US. For some reason, people intuitively get why it's happening
| with cars, but housing... it's some kind of weird mystery why
| it's so expensive in so many places.
| alphabettsy wrote:
| Housing doesn't seem like a mystery at all. Home prices have
| been increasing rapidly for several years and supply is
| partly constrained by the pandemic.
| dionidium wrote:
| This has actually been a favorite analogy of YIMBYs for quite
| some time. "What if the supply of new cars were constrained
| for some reason?," they'd ask. "What would happen to the
| market for new cars? Would prices go up or down? Would people
| who had planned to buy a new car settle for a used one? Would
| this drive up prices?" Etc, etc.
|
| And of course that's _exactly_ what happened.
| oceanplexian wrote:
| The thing is, cars aren't actually worth more today than they
| were 4 years ago, it's just that your money is worth less and
| assets like cars+housing are where inflation is most visible.
| cmckn wrote:
| I bought a new car in 2019 and it has about 10,000 miles on it. I
| could sell it for what I paid for it, which is completely absurd.
| If I knew I'd be able to buy another car in ~6 months, I'd sell
| it in a second. But the auto industry backlog is looking more
| like 12-18 months to me.
| sushsjsuauahab wrote:
| These are micro-optimizations that aren't very meaningful.
|
| It's more important to simply just have a car, than it is to
| have a car for a very specific price.
|
| It's the same reason why people would pay $12 at an airport for
| what they could get in bulk for $0.50
| jmspring wrote:
| Recently had a car totaled. Blue book was about 19k private party
| sale in excellent condition. Insurance gave me $27k.
|
| So yes it's nuts.
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