[HN Gopher] Kite Turbines
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Kite Turbines
        
       Author : Kaibeezy
       Score  : 240 points
       Date   : 2021-11-09 07:57 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (windswept-and-interesting.co.uk)
 (TXT) w3m dump (windswept-and-interesting.co.uk)
        
       | Kaibeezy wrote:
       | Morphologically interesting here is these are HAWT at the top and
       | VAWT at the bottom.
       | 
       | A kite isn't the only way to do this, could alt be; some kind of
       | semirigid textile mushroom; suspended between buildings or across
       | a chasm; integrated into a built structure; an inflatable; an
       | aerostat; and so forth.
        
       | tonylemesmer wrote:
       | What happens when the wind drops?
        
         | wmertens wrote:
         | Then the kites have to be rolled back home until the wind is
         | good again.
        
       | ncmncm wrote:
       | Fly them over failed nuke plant reservations. Those have no-fly
       | zones marked on all the maps, so you can go up where the wind is
       | really blowing without creating a navigation hazard.
        
         | riffraff wrote:
         | no need for no-fly zones
         | 
         | > Kite turbines can fly under 30m above ground - making them
         | the only CAA ANO CAP393 compliant airborne wind energy system.
        
           | UncleOxidant wrote:
           | Sure, but the higher up you can go the more wind there
           | generally is. It's one of the big potential advantages of
           | kite windpower over fixed blade systems.
        
           | vanderZwan wrote:
           | That is pretty great! But GP is right in the sense that to
           | really extract a lot of energy you want to go higher into the
           | air too, so why not make use of those no-fly zones for
           | scaling this up?
        
       | sirt_2513 wrote:
       | you can also make kites for under water usage, make use of the
       | tide movements which never stops.
        
         | wmertens wrote:
         | It's back-and-forth though so you are constantly changing
         | direction and losing power.
        
           | Grustaf wrote:
           | The wind also changes direction sometimes, that's not
           | necessarily an issue. Several companies are doing this, like:
           | https://minesto.com/
        
           | kitd wrote:
           | _constantly_
           | 
           | Well, once every 6-ish hours. But even then, you put the
           | turbine on an axle to turn it into the flow. Windmills have
           | been doing this for centuries.
        
             | wmertens wrote:
             | ah yes, I was thinking of wave energy sorry.
             | 
             | Actually, yes, that would indeed be a good use of the
             | concept - anchor the generator to a submerged bouey (so as
             | to not disturb shipping) and it will always be pointing in
             | the right direction and generating. Nice!
        
       | gorgoiler wrote:
       | My brother has one of those Cannondales with a single sided front
       | fork. He's also got a dynamo hub in his front wheel.
       | 
       | With some sturdy ground stakes to pin his upside-down bike the
       | ground, this could make a neat source of power when your off-
       | bike, in the field. What's the smallest possible clone of this
       | that you could bike-camp with, I wonder?
        
         | adrianN wrote:
         | Hub dynamos produce a couple of watts tops. You're probably
         | much better off buying a small solar cell.
        
       | adrianN wrote:
       | This is interesting for replacing small wind turbines, which
       | often break before they recovered their embodied energy[1], but I
       | have a hard time seeing this technology replace large scale
       | commercial wind turbines. Kite based wind power has been talked
       | about for years, but somehow it fails to materialize. I assume
       | cost and safety concerns play a role.
       | 
       | [1]http://theoildrum.com/node/6954
        
         | UncleOxidant wrote:
         | The autonomous control of the kite is one of the big issues. It
         | was basically not possible when the idea was first presented in
         | the 80s - there weren't computers small enough with enough
         | computing power needed for the task. Also there were materials
         | problems. Now we've made a lot of progress on both fronts, but
         | still, the control software is a huge issue. We were planning
         | on using reinforcement learning to learn a controller for our
         | kite (when I was in the biz), but getting enough data to learn
         | on was an issue - the kite design was an iterative process -
         | the kite design would change and that meant we needed to
         | recollect data to enable us to model the new kite changes,
         | wash, rinse, repeat.
        
         | sandworm101 wrote:
         | Launch costs. Kites work well enough when the wind is blowing
         | but a lull, or even a quick change in direction, can see them
         | crash to the ground. Then someone has to launch them again. I
         | cannot see them ever being practical outside of those very rare
         | places where the wind literally never stops.
        
           | Grustaf wrote:
           | Kites like Makani's are autonomous, and that's really one of
           | the harder aspects to get to work.
        
             | wmertens wrote:
             | Makani's kite is steered. This one just needs to stay
             | aloft. Launching it is just a matter of a wind-up spool on
             | a windvane-like small rotating platform (no more than a few
             | m high)
        
               | Grustaf wrote:
               | I know how it works, what are you arguing for or against?
        
               | mainpeanut wrote:
               | You wrote
               | 
               | > Kites like Makani's are autonomous
               | 
               | They wrote
               | 
               | > Makani's kite is steered. This one just needs to stay
               | aloft
               | 
               | The implication is that you are suggesting that
               | autonomous steering is neat and the other person is
               | suggesting that not needing steering is neater.
               | 
               | Also, Makani was steered into the ground literally and
               | figuratively. It's been cancelled. It will never do what
               | it said it could do because its creators won't keep doing
               | it. It's over.
        
               | Grustaf wrote:
               | No, I just meant what I wrote.
               | 
               | I'm simply agreeing with the guy that said that launching
               | is expensive. It's indeed the hardest part for any kite
               | energy system, I know this from experience, I spent
               | several years in this industry.
               | 
               | If you could live with having to launch and land the
               | system manually, that would change the equation
               | completely.
        
             | mainpeanut wrote:
             | > Kites like Makani's are autonomous
             | 
             | The are also cancelled, gone, don't exist, will never
             | happen
        
       | AceJohnny2 wrote:
       | Makani (of Google X) tried this at a large scale. It didn't work
       | out for them, but they open-sourced all their stuff:
       | 
       | https://x.company/projects/makani/
        
         | moffkalast wrote:
         | Well that's just utterly overcomplicated and overengineered. No
         | way they could produce that at scale for dirt cheap for
         | underdeveloped remote areas, which is what this sort of thing
         | would be the best application for.
         | 
         | Compared to this project that's essentially a few rings and a
         | bike transmission.
        
         | msadowski wrote:
         | I really enjoyed the documentary about their work:
         | https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qd_hEja6bzE
        
           | Cyber3x wrote:
           | This is one of the best videos on Youtube. I really liked how
           | they documented their progress. If only the video lasted
           | longer.
        
             | mainpeanut wrote:
             | Well funded grad students trying to scale-down an airplane
             | into a kite
        
               | UncleOxidant wrote:
               | More like they scaled up a kite into a largish 4 rotor
               | airplane.
        
           | UncleOxidant wrote:
           | Very good documentary on the project. It's amazing what you
           | can do with basically an unlimited budget. I worked at a
           | much, much smaller kite power startup that folded soon after
           | Google stopped funding Makani (investors lost interest
           | because they figured if Google wasn't funding in this space
           | it must not be viable). Anyway, looking at that documentary
           | it seemed clear that Google must've poured hundreds of
           | millions of dollars into that company over it's lifetime. So
           | many engineers and so many resources. I was kind of envious,
           | but then again the ready funding might have been part of
           | Makani's downfall, you're forced to make different design
           | decisions when money isn't so plentiful.
        
             | msadowski wrote:
             | I think they were considered a moonshot project? That's
             | probably one way you can justify a massive funding.
        
         | wmertens wrote:
         | Very different concept though - using a steered kite vs what is
         | basically a self-erecting small wind turbine.
         | 
         | Way less logic and parts needed vs Makani
        
           | AceJohnny2 wrote:
           | It seems to me Makani's problem is they wanted larger scale
           | power generation, and of course can't rely on constant wind,
           | so needed a way to settle and recover. Of course that's not a
           | problem for smaller-scale builds like the OP.
        
       | LVB wrote:
       | This feature film about Makani (another kite project) was
       | extremely well done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd_hEja6bzE
        
         | riffraff wrote:
         | notice this is a vastly different project though: it's not a
         | high-flying kite with complex steering logic; it's a small wind
         | wheel that transmits torque to the ground. If this things
         | crashes to the ground there is basically no expensive damage.
        
           | kkjjkgjjgg wrote:
           | Wouldn't the potential for damage at least correlate to some
           | extent with the potential for energy that can be harvested?
           | 
           | Even hobbyist kites can become quite scary when the wind gets
           | stronger. I don't want to be hit on the head by a kite
           | turbine in strong winds.
        
             | wmertens wrote:
             | this looks to be made from only soft parts though. Worst
             | case you get snipped by a tensed string (could still do
             | damage)
        
               | kkjjkgjjgg wrote:
               | The soft parts on hobby kites get quite hard when they
               | are strained by the wind, though. As I said - it should
               | depend on the energy they can harvest - the same energy
               | can also force them into the ground, or onto your head.
        
             | riffraff wrote:
             | I was referring to the cost of the equipment getting
             | destroyed by crashing: makani's (and others) kites are
             | pretty expensive and crashing one is a Big Deal, it does
             | not seem the same in this design.
             | 
             | Potential for damage and energy are probably correlated, in
             | the sense that this design seems to attempt to harvest low-
             | altitude winds (30m), while makani and others wanted to get
             | the high-altitude stronger and more constant ones.
             | 
             | This design does not have an heavy high flying turbine, it
             | has a small lightweight one, and they plan to have multiple
             | tethering ropes so I think the risk you face is in fact in
             | the same ballpark as a hobbyist kite.
             | 
             | IANA wind-electricity-physics person tho, so take
             | everything I say with a large grain of salt.
        
         | goodpoint wrote:
         | Almost too well done. It feels like advertising...
        
           | mainpeanut wrote:
           | Or a resume. The project was cancelled
        
       | whoomp12342 wrote:
       | seriously this is cool. Can you imagine having a few of these on
       | the roof of your house in conjunction with solar panels?
        
       | kens wrote:
       | The privacy popup at the bottom of this page makes entertaining
       | reading...
        
         | Tade0 wrote:
         | Personally I can't get over the overuse of ellipsis.
        
         | robin_reala wrote:
         | Regarding their use of YouTube, the best way of working around
         | that problem (at least without using a privacy-preserving
         | provider) is to embed from youtube-nocookie.com instead of
         | youtube.com.
         | 
         | https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/171780 (and look at
         | the "Turn on privacy-enhanced mode" section)
        
       | spowerei wrote:
       | I don't understand why Makani got so much attention in this
       | thread.
       | 
       | Flying things need to be lightweight.
       | 
       | Electrical generators are heavy.
       | 
       | Makani: Ok I will build a flying generator ... :thinking:
       | 
       | Related Keywords:
       | 
       | - Airborne wind energy (AWE) (the name of the field)
       | 
       | - Fly-gen (mechanical to electrical conversion happens in the
       | sky)
       | 
       | - Ground-gen (mechanical to electrical conversion happens on the
       | ground)
       | 
       | Other resources worth of attention:
       | 
       | - On the edge, possibly near to commercialization:
       | https://www.ampyxpower.com, ...
       | 
       | - Commercial solutions: https://thekitepower.com/, ...
       | 
       | - Project similar to the one linked (rigid wing):
       | https://www.someawe.org, it also have a nice conceptual map style
       | overview of the field https://www.someawe.org/awe-map-the-
       | someaweorg-airborne-wind...
       | 
       | - Forum with knowledgeable people on AWE:
       | https://forum.awesystems.info/
        
         | UncleOxidant wrote:
         | Makani had huge amounts of capital from Google to work with. As
         | you point out there are other much smaller players in the field
         | who keep the generator on the ground and generate power from
         | the upward pull of the tether. I worked at one of these
         | startups. But after Google canceled Makani it became very
         | difficult to find funding because angel investors figured that
         | if Google got out of the game it must not be viable. And so we
         | folded.
         | 
         | > - On the edge, possibly near to commercialization:
         | https://www.ampyxpower.com
         | 
         | A CGI video does not convince me that they're near to
         | commercialization.
        
           | spowerei wrote:
           | You are right, I used the wrong wording:
           | 
           | "possibly near to commercialization"->"they have something
           | flying"
           | 
           | Many others should be mentioned, i.e.
           | https://www.kitemill.com/
        
           | tromp wrote:
           | The ampyxpower website claims they translate tether tension
           | into rotational energy to drive the generator, but how does
           | that work?
        
         | uranium wrote:
         | Making flying things lightweight is a means to an end, not the
         | goal or a hard requirement. Makani experimented with a wide
         | variety of solutions before settling on their final model. The
         | initial work on soft kites had serious durability issues, IIRC.
         | What they ended up with looks a lot like a very lightweight
         | airplane, for good reason.
         | 
         | [Former Makani software engineer, here. I wasn't involved in
         | the early stuff, or the design trades, but I heard a lot about
         | it.]
        
           | spowerei wrote:
           | I'm realizing my phrasing was too critical. I think it's a
           | very good thing that Makani explored that "design path" and
           | shared the knowledge acquired with that level of details. I
           | would also say that rigid wing has more potential for AWE,
           | but I am pessimist toward 'fly-gen'/'energy-kite' solutions,
           | because when dealing with a gas as bearing medium reducing
           | weight seems a reasonable and trending rule of thumb. It's
           | difficult/too-vague to compare designs with substantially
           | different ramifications, some of which are still
           | hypothetical, but it's maybe worth if it leads to a better
           | understanding or general awareness.
           | 
           | I am curious, do you know why Makani went 100% 'fly-gen'?
           | From by biased point of view I would say that it was easier
           | to bootstrap (more control agency, easier take off and
           | landing) but harder to scale.
           | 
           | I tried to skim through the 1k+ pages 3 part report available
           | from Makani (https://x.company/projects/makani/), but it
           | doesn't seem to speak much about the considerations which
           | when into that early design choice. Do you know more?
           | 
           | Is it possible to summarize them or it's an organic set of
           | reasons which cannot be untangled nor simplified like often
           | happen when dealing with complex systems?
           | 
           | [Mechanical Engineer here]
        
         | cdeonier wrote:
         | What's the reason for the emphasis on weight? From reading the
         | technical reports (from Makani), there were larger issues with
         | the design unrelated to the weight.
         | 
         | As an example, Makani's Y-bridle design to attach the tether to
         | the kite introduce stability issues during hover, and limited
         | their control when the kite was aloft making circles, which in
         | turn limited their power generation.
        
           | UncleOxidant wrote:
           | > What's the reason for the emphasis on weight? .... As an
           | example, Makani's Y-bridle design to attach the tether to the
           | kite introduce stability issues
           | 
           | It's quite possible that if their kiteplane was much lighter
           | that these tether issues would have been much less of a
           | problem. Remember that the Makani tether also had to include
           | some copper cable for power transmission to the ground. That
           | makes the tether itself heavy as well.
        
       | code123456789 wrote:
       | Looks very interesting. Didn't find a word about birds' safety on
       | your landing page. This is even less visible to birds than
       | traditional turbines, if I am not mistaken.
        
         | awestroke wrote:
         | 2.4 billion birds are killed by cats every year. 600 million by
         | flying into glass panes. 200k by flying into wind turbines.
         | (these are US statistics, so not global numbers)
         | 
         | The bird death argument is completely meaningless in several
         | aspects. I'd rather make cats illegal than put any kind of
         | breaks on wind power expansion.
        
           | kkjjkgjjgg wrote:
           | I don't trust those numbers.
        
             | gambiting wrote:
             | Ok, then either post better ones or say why you don't like
             | them, or what is the reason for distrust. Just saying "I
             | don't trust these numbers" adds absolutely nothing to the
             | discussion. Imagine if I said "I trust these numbers" - is
             | that helpful?
        
               | kkjjkgjjgg wrote:
               | The billion birds things seems to go back to one single
               | "study", and there already seem to be doubts about it htt
               | ps://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2013/02/03/170851048/do-
               | we... (although I think npr is a weird source, I don't
               | know).
               | 
               | In any case, those are probably just napkin calculations.
               | And I bet I can find a wild variety of estimates for
               | birds killed by wind turbines, too - depending on whether
               | the person doing the estimating wants turbines to succeed
               | or not.
               | 
               | It seems likely they don't kill the same birds as wind
               | turbines, either. And not in the same locations.
               | 
               | All in all the comparison might just make not much sense
               | to begin with.
               | 
               | How many birds are being killed and eaten by humans, for
               | example? Probably several billions more, but they are not
               | the same birds that are being killed by turbines.
        
               | gambiting wrote:
               | Well, that's a much better reply, thank you. And yes, I
               | agree - the numbers aren't directly comparable, but thank
               | you for making it much clearer why.
        
           | adrianN wrote:
           | Your statistics are of course true, but cats and wind
           | turbines kill different species of birds. It does make sense
           | not to put wind turbines where endangered birds are nesting.
        
             | eecc wrote:
             | Just paint a blade black. The dazzle effect will keep birds
             | away. https://www.bbc.com/news/science-
             | environment-53909825.amp
        
         | wmertens wrote:
         | There's a whole bunch of thread with wings attached in a fairly
         | small radius. I would think birds can see this way better.
        
       | russellbeattie wrote:
       | Ever since I saw Big Hero 6, I've wondered about the practicality
       | of something like this. Blimps with generators seems like
       | something to explore!
       | 
       | https://media.wired.co.uk/photos/606da5dc581351b2c44d7d4c/ma...
        
         | Grustaf wrote:
         | Flying conventional wind turbines aren't that good, they suffer
         | from most of the downsides of both normal wind turbines and
         | kite turbines.
         | 
         | The idea with kite energy (in serious projects) is to eliminate
         | the need for a tower and the inner parts of the blades.
         | 
         | The kites can be seen as the tip of the blades, which is where
         | almost all the energy is generated.
         | 
         | Kite energy can dispense with the tower because they are
         | tethered with a largely horizontal cable, so there is no lever
         | involved and the foundation can be much smaller. You could sort
         | of do that with the flying turbines, but that wouldn't really
         | work in a city environment.
        
       | blackoil wrote:
       | This looks interesting for off grid areas. Even a small prototype
       | can run water pumps etc. They look like should be easy to
       | transport and install.
        
       | lorey wrote:
       | There's also Kitekraft from YC:
       | 
       | - https://medium.com/kitekraft/kitekraft-takes-off-with-y-comb...
       | 
       | - https://www.kitekraft.de/
        
       | K0balt wrote:
       | This is cool, but I'm not seeing how this could be useful in
       | unattended application. It will need relaunching on a regular
       | basis, and will wear a lot. Even string wears Internally just
       | flying in the wind.
       | 
       | My guess is that except in some specific applications like winter
       | use in polar regions, solar power will end up producing more
       | energy for the same investment over time.
       | 
       | Cheap solar is hard to beat, and the new printable panels promise
       | to make it even harder.
       | 
       | Solar is just a lot of energy compared it to kinetic sources.
       | It's counterintuitive.
       | 
       | A typical single solar cell from a panel (5 watts) does the work
       | of lifting a 5kg weight 300m high every hour. It's kinda mind
       | blowing.
        
         | heavenlyblue wrote:
         | I don't understand the maths behind your last paragraph, can
         | you clear it up please?
        
           | EForEndeavour wrote:
           | Raising a mass of m = 5 kg by a height of h = 300 m under
           | gravitational acceleration g = 9.8 m/s^2 represents an
           | increase in gravitational potential energy of E = mgh = 14700
           | joules.
           | 
           | Power is the movement of energy over time, measurable in
           | joules per second, or watts. Moving 14700 joules in 1 hour =
           | 3600 seconds represents 14700 J / 3600 s = 4 watts of power.
        
             | pjs_ wrote:
             | If your body was perfectly efficient at converting calories
             | into gravitational potential energy, the calories in a
             | single can of coke would be enough to carry you 1km into
             | space
        
               | mwint wrote:
               | Is there a rule of thumb for the true efficiency of that
               | calculation? I.e if I drink one can of coke, how far can
               | I climb a ladder on the energy I metabolized from it?
        
         | aidenn0 wrote:
         | > My guess is that except in some specific applications like
         | winter use in polar regions, solar power will end up producing
         | more energy for the same investment over time.
         | 
         | Or energy generation at night and in cloudy areas.
        
         | Nasrudith wrote:
         | Automated relaunching could handle the unattended part. As for
         | applications perhaps it could work as a compliment to solar
         | panels for deployable night time power generation? Given
         | general trends of economies of scale, huge tower wind turbines
         | perform better on a permanent basis but kites would be far more
         | dispatchable and transportable in a casual way. Might be
         | roughly similar in niche to a gasoline or diesel generator
         | aside from the obvious limitations exchange (not burning fuel
         | for power vs being usable indoors or underground with proper
         | ventilation, smaller footprint).
        
         | politician wrote:
         | You could probably launch these over the top of an existing
         | solar farm. It doesn't look like they will cast much shadow.
        
       | ishtanbul wrote:
       | I work in the wind industry. Dont see any chance of this becoming
       | commercially accepted
        
         | rhn_mk1 wrote:
         | That's a lazy comment. Please explain when you have something
         | substantial to say, instead of just baiting.
        
         | jcun4128 wrote:
         | yeah arm chair comment, too many parts (strings), Makani
         | couldn't do it
        
           | lanamo wrote:
           | a bird killer.
        
           | wmertens wrote:
           | Makani needed expensive equipment and locations, and worked
           | very differently.
        
             | jcun4128 wrote:
             | I wonder if you were to design a conventional turbine that
             | was made out of a telescoping rod. The blades were CF with
             | fabric like an old wind mill, and then
             | gearbox/motor/charging circuit... say it was only 10 ft
             | tall, compare it to this (power).
             | 
             | 1.5KW is nice but guaranteed 30mph constant wind?
        
         | AlexAndScripts wrote:
         | Why, out of curiosity?
        
           | Uberphallus wrote:
           | Not parent, but aside from the novelty factor:
           | 
           | For small scale energy production small VAWTs [0] are
           | relatively cheap, they offer more W/m2, and they are much
           | more easily serviceable and installable.
           | 
           | For large scale production it's orders of magnitude less
           | efficient, plus having multiple kites on the same plane
           | brings in the wake effect [1] in full force. That's why
           | regular turbines are generally laid in lines rather than wide
           | surfaces, or with significant separation between them.
           | 
           | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical-axis_wind_turbine
           | 
           | [1] https://www.wind-energy-the-facts.org/wake-effect.html
        
             | fragmede wrote:
             | Okay, but why is everything wind-related so impossibly
             | _big_? What 's the physics behind needing blades so big
             | that they can't fit into a cargo container? Instead of
             | several very large turbines, why not 1000 or 10,000 of
             | them?
        
               | gtpedrosa wrote:
               | I think the Makani documentary does a good job explaining
               | the problem in less than 2 min [1].
               | 
               | [1] https://youtu.be/qd_hEja6bzE?t=392
               | 
               | Regarding the size x quantity, I believe the reason lies
               | in where the best wind is, which is usually high above
               | the ground. The roughness of the terrain and obstacles
               | generate shear and turbulence, which translates into more
               | stress for the components. The higher wind has a more
               | uniform distribution across the rotor and is higher in
               | magnitude than in lower heights. So for small wind
               | turbines to have access to the best wind, you would have
               | to build expensive structures to reach there, making it
               | infeasible. Hence kite approaches like the one posted and
               | Makani (with different principles).
        
               | wmertens wrote:
               | Power goes up exponentially with size. To get good RoI,
               | you need to go huge.
        
               | divbzero wrote:
               | Power is roughly proportional to the wind turbine's cross
               | sectional area. So power scales by the square of blade
               | length but isn't quite exponential.
        
               | Tuna-Fish wrote:
               | It's more than square, because bigger also means taller
               | which means more wind.
        
               | Grustaf wrote:
               | Yes, it's not exponential at all. Larger blades also need
               | to be thicker, and the tower stronger etc. But still,
               | it's economies of scale like everywhere else.
        
               | flavius29663 wrote:
               | It's more than squared, it's cubed. If you consider
               | height advantages, it's going to produce 22 times more
               | energy for each doubling of the blade length.
               | http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2011/ph240/parise1/
        
               | Tuna-Fish wrote:
               | And not only is there more output, it's more valuable per
               | unit.
               | 
               | Higher winds are much more stable. Both in having less
               | completely still days, and having the median be much
               | closer to the maximum. A wind turbine that is built big
               | enough starts having a large part of it outbut be
               | effectively baseload instead of intermittent, and as more
               | renewables are built out, baseload capacity is
               | increasingly more valuable than intermittent.
        
               | pjc50 wrote:
               | Not only does the area argument apply (see Betz limit),
               | but also you get higher wind speeds at higher altitudes.
        
       | amelius wrote:
       | Bird catchers.
        
       | andy_ppp wrote:
       | I was actually thinking about an alternative energy source from
       | the sea... it would float on the surface and be like a set of
       | interlinked chains in a fabric with dynamos in them that the
       | simple harmonic motion of the ripples of water constantly could
       | be used to create electricity.
       | 
       | Let's suppose out at sea each peak to trough is 60cm and the
       | movement up and down causes the internal dynamo to be driven by
       | 30cm for each one - you probably need two lines into each one,
       | positive and negative serially and you could get a pretty good
       | average amount of electricity probably.
       | 
       | No idea if it would work or the output would be too uneven but
       | there is a lot of sea and it seems a bit easier to build and
       | repair than something that sits statically in the water.
        
         | leoedin wrote:
         | A lot of work has gone into wave power, but broadly it's not
         | got anywhere - there's a lot of complexity in building machines
         | which are robust enough to deal with all sea states and the
         | hostile marine environment, and the amount of energy which can
         | be extracted hasn't made any of the trials so far particularly
         | cost effective.
        
         | whoomp12342 wrote:
         | I too have thought about this but more like an ocean/tide use
         | case. basically a bobber/sinker with a generator
        
         | Chris2048 wrote:
         | Guessing it would need some weight to allow it to sink a
         | little, but also be buoyant. Maybe aerated concrete (or even
         | normal concrete) is the answer?:
         | https://www.seasteading.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/The-C...
        
         | guerrilla wrote:
         | This is already in production in Portugal.
        
         | SuchAnonMuchWow wrote:
         | see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_power which include a
         | description of the device you mention, among other ideas to
         | extract the power from sea waves.
        
       | the100rabh wrote:
       | Being from India where during kite festival hundreds of birds die
       | due to colliding with threads that kites are flying from. I am a
       | little concerned with this solution. But I guess that can be
       | added to the design somehow.
       | 
       | Also it just generates 1.5KW which I think its pretty low. Maybe
       | I did not understand this completely.
        
       | steve_gh wrote:
       | This looks really interesting. Not a replacement for large scale
       | (e.g. offshore) wind, but a complement.
       | 
       | I work in infrastructure management. This might be a good
       | solution for site power roadside or trackside.
        
         | kitd wrote:
         | Agreed. Large-scale might be a stretch, but the low cost and
         | weight, open source design, and the ease of transport would
         | make this ideal for temporary installations, eg what you
         | mention, emergencies or even in the developing world.
        
       | marmakoide wrote:
       | A portable kite turbine, tested on the field and that is a
       | finished product, not a prototype. 24V DC, 100 watts guaranteed
       | with 25 km/h winds, a very conservative estimate
       | 
       | https://kitewinder.fr/
        
         | Kaibeezy wrote:
         | Nice! Basic description: Parasail kite with a small bladed
         | turbine hanging off it. 100 Watts, 4.5 kg, no tools to
         | assemble. EUR900 is not cheap, but the price should come down
         | eventually.
        
           | marmakoide wrote:
           | I seat the office next to the team of people who designed it
           | and who are currently producing it. Cost is mostly because of
           | the current low production volume : they can't buy full
           | containers of screws, bearings, motors, they can;t order
           | thousands of injection molded parts.
           | 
           | They assemble it themselves. They make the control board
           | mostly themselves, apart from the PCB which is made in China.
           | They also produce the plastic (molded resin I think) and
           | metal parts (we have a big CNC mill) themselves, so they can
           | handle low production volumes without a big upfront
           | investment.
           | 
           | They recently tested it on the Brittany coast under heavy
           | winds, it did fine. It was tested a lot on Aquitaine coast.
        
             | Kaibeezy wrote:
             | That all sounds so familiar. I was involved with design and
             | low-volume production of a complex optical assembly long
             | before AliExpress. We tried using surplus lenses and
             | prisms, which were practically free compared to new or
             | custom stuff, but the inability to standardize was
             | ultimately more costly in terms of re-engineering,
             | searching for parts, etc. Balancing all that out was an
             | ongoing challenge. I remember finding a factory in India
             | that could make us prisms at a very reasonable price and it
             | was a huge relief. They came in individual handmade
             | pasteboard (cheap frangible cardboard with surface layers
             | of very thin paper) boxes with hand-lettered labels glued
             | on. Old school.
             | 
             | I think these will be very appealing for campers, off-grid,
             | emergency and other backup situations when they can hit a
             | somewhat lower price. I understand solar panel costs are
             | dropping, but it isn't always sunny everywhere!
        
       ___________________________________________________________________
       (page generated 2021-11-10 23:02 UTC)