[HN Gopher] USC pushed a $115k online degree - graduates got low...
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USC pushed a $115k online degree - graduates got low salaries, huge
debts
Author : alex504
Score : 152 points
Date : 2021-11-09 16:27 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.wsj.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.wsj.com)
| 999900000999 wrote:
| Ehh eh.
|
| I went to a CSU for like 6k a year.
|
| If you want to be elitist and attend the most expensive school
| possible, you have to eventually pay for it.
|
| > Ms. Fowler, a 2018 graduate, enjoyed the program but owes
| $307,000 in total student-loan debt, including about $200,000
| from the master's degree. She said she earns $48,000 as a
| community mental-health therapist in Mount Pleasant, Iowa.
|
| This translates into paying 300k to feel prestigious. At dinner
| parties she gets to tell everyone about how she's a USC grad.
|
| Adults have a right to make poor choices.
|
| That said, having a hard cap of 100k unless enrolling in a high
| paid field ( Dr , Lawyer, anything that requires a state
| sanctioned license) would be a good idea.
|
| The problem with Student Loan forgiveness is it would typically
| help the highest paid Americans. Most people with 100k plus in
| loans also make very good money.
|
| Why in God's name would you go 300k in debt to make 50k ?
|
| I see the same problem with boot camps, instead of accepting that
| building a six-figure career just takes a while, people want a
| shortcut. I got to six-figure figures without even having a BA,
| but it took a long time in a lot of very hard work.
|
| Actually it only took me about 3 years from dropping out of
| college to my first six-figure job, but I was programming at
| least 40 hours a week back then. This was after work of course.
| Even now I'm off and happiest when I'm building my side projects.
| aserdf wrote:
| - Adults have a right to make poor choices.
|
| agree however the vast majority of high school kids are
| marketed to and forced to make decisions about college, while
| having little to no comprehension of the magnitude and
| permanence of their decision, when they are 17 years old
| (minors).
|
| graduate school of course being a different story.
| WalterSear wrote:
| The career counselor at my expensive private school didn't
| know what an engineer does.
| zsmi wrote:
| Wow. I thought everyone knew they drive trains.
| psyc wrote:
| And I thought everyone here knew they make React apps.
| notJim wrote:
| Im pretty sure they evaluate the structural soundness of
| buildings.
| romwell wrote:
| >The problem with Student Loan forgiveness is it would
| typically help the highest paid Americans. Most people with
| 100k plus in loans also make very good money.
|
| Why would that be a _problem_?
|
| First, your "typically" needs a citation. The average student
| loan is about $40K.
|
| Second, it's not a problem to help struggling people if a
| percentage of people who are not struggling benefits too.
| Nothing is 100% efficient, and the inefficiency of not checking
| tax forms at a soup kitchen to make sure _only_ the Actually
| Poor(tm) get the soup is made up tenfold by the outcome of
| nobody needing to be hungry.
|
| >Adults have a right to make poor choices.
|
| Yeah, unless it's buying alcohol, tobacco, or marijuana.
|
| Somehow that doesn't apply to enlisting in armed forces or
| taking on a lifetime debt that, unlike anything else, won't be
| erased in a bankruptcy, and thus is nearly risk-free for the
| lender.
| rauljordan2020 wrote:
| > If you want to be elitist and attend the most expensive
| school possible, you have to eventually pay for it.
|
| Eh, I feel like this isn't true. Most of top schools in the US
| offer full, need-blind financial aid. This means no scholarship
| that can be taken away nor student loans. Many fellow
| classmates were there completely free of charge. The best
| schools have money, and they're interested in making sure their
| talent attends.
| 999900000999 wrote:
| Um USC is still considered one of the top schools.
|
| The full rides you're referring to are often reserved to
| students from very low income backgrounds. Let's say your mom
| and your dad make 150 combined, that doesn't mean they have a
| spare $60,000 for you to go to school. Meaning you might have
| to take out some student loans.
|
| I still think student loans are an amazing program, and no
| they don't need to be forgiven. As long as you take out loans
| the right way, for example in my case I went to the cheapest
| possible School, and I finished college at my own pace. It
| worked out very well for me. With student loans I was able to
| get away from my horrible family. When I see these stories of
| insanely irresponsible people who take out a quarter million
| in loans I the good student loans do is lost.
|
| Regardless in this case the students only took on so much
| debt because they wanted that sweet sweet USC degree.
|
| When you're 25 you can do a bunch of stupid things. That
| doesn't mean we need to pass a law to stop everyone from
| doing anything silly.
| adamredwoods wrote:
| I think the article is pointing towards USC-specific predatory
| behavior for social-worker degrees.
|
| >> In increasing enrollment in its social-work program, USC
| benefited from federal loan dollars: Graduates from 2015
| through 2018 collectively borrowed more than half a billion
| dollars in federal student loans, more than those at any other
| graduate program in the country, the Journal found. USC had an
| endowment of $5.9 billion last year, making it one of the 20
| wealthiest private schools in the country.
| morelandjs wrote:
| Set the government student loan ceiling according to the
| university and degree program. One way to do this would be to
| peg it to the median earnings of recent grads (determined via
| tax reporting).
|
| Want to pursue a pre-medical degree at USC? Great! The
| government will loan you up to some large amount. Want to
| pursue a humanitarian degree at XYZ tech online? Great! The
| government will loan you a small amount. Remove the
| externality on society.
| david38 wrote:
| Yes, adults can make poor choices. Agreed.
|
| Said choices should be constrained though. She wouldn't be
| allowed to buy a 300k car with no possibility of bankruptcy.
|
| The lender is made of adults as well. They also made poor
| choices. Why is a group of adults hiding behind a piece of
| paper allowed to be saved from their poor choices while an
| individual not?
| romwell wrote:
| >Why is a group of adults hiding behind a piece of paper
| allowed to be saved from their poor choices while an
| individual not?
|
| Because rich people lending money to poor people needs to be
| a risk-free endeavor backed up by the state. This way, it's
| easier for the banks to make money.
|
| And at the same time, it's easy to spin predatory lending as
| "helping out" when it shouldn't exist to begin with, and
| victim-blame people who are taken advantage of (which, in the
| case of student loans, is children: college applications are
| sent out well before a typical freshman turns 18).
| nickff wrote:
| > _" Why is a group of adults hiding behind a piece of paper
| allowed to be saved from their poor choices while an
| individual not?"_
|
| The piece of paper is the law, which does not allow for
| defaults on these loans. These laws were created to allow
| students to take massive loans, and transfer their future
| earnings to a school. I would agree that something should
| change, but the schools will fight tooth and nail to prevent
| it.
| opinion-is-bad wrote:
| If the colleges had to take a stake in the debt repayment, or
| lack thereof, they probably would do a better job ensuring
| their graduates don't take out impossible loans. Adults can
| make bad decisions, but many that are getting trapped in
| student loan debt are making the decisions while still
| technically underage.
| jeffy90 wrote:
| I really like this idea, only edge case I wonder about is if
| such a policy would incentivize colleges to avoid letting in
| students from low income backgrounds.
| opinion-is-bad wrote:
| It's possible. A lot of top universities already do need-
| blind admissions, so I don't think it's an unsolvable
| hurdle.
| alex504 wrote:
| The school spends 60% of its revenue selling itself as an elite
| education to people who don't qualify or need an elite
| education. They employ salesmen and incentivize them to be as
| aggressive as they legally can. They then deliver a subpar
| education, by every metric, compared to schools that cost half
| as much.
|
| This is a predatory scam that targets low-income individuals
| who want an education and a career and pretty much guarantees
| an outcome of long-term financial instability.
|
| Of course the victims have some of the responsibility, but
|
| >Adults have a right to make poor choices.
|
| Puts these supposedly prestigious schools at about the same
| ethical level as a casino, a tobacco company or a pay day loan
| operation. What USC is doing is arguably worse than a casino
| because it's using the reputation of a prestigious university
| to take advantage of people who want an education, while
| simultaneously siphoning money from taxpayers.
| jamestimmins wrote:
| Where are you getting the 60% number? I have an extremely
| hard time believing this is anywhere close to accurate.
| alex504 wrote:
| From the article:
|
| >The social-work school was contractually required to share
| about 60% of revenue with 2U and ran into financial
| trouble.
|
| My impression was that most of what 2u did was marketing, I
| might be wrong about that though. It seems like a
| combination of marketing and their online platform.
| jamestimmins wrote:
| Ah ok, I missed that. I thought you meant 60% of USC
| funds were getting redirected 3rd parties like that; my
| mistake.
| BizarroLand wrote:
| I don't know if there is a solution to this, but it seems like
| the cost should be somehow equivalent to the average payout. I
| feel that college in general would serve the country better if
| the results were tied to the expenses and efforts required. A
| Sociology degree that empowers people to make life changes for
| disadvantaged and neglected people (while living on subsistence
| wages) would serve our future better if it were basically free,
| whereas STEM degrees that increase your likelihood of retiring
| a millionaire by 50% over the average could be feasibly
| worthwhile if they cost $300k.
|
| I took on $65k of loans for my BS but make six figures myself,
| so it was worth it for me. I can't image 5x the cost for 1/3rd
| the reward. That's just stupid.
|
| I admit that the person who took this path is to blame for some
| of it, but a college tying $300,000 to a degree that earns
| $5/hr more than a fry cook is also at some level to blame along
| with the path society took to enable this scenario to exist in
| the first place.
| austincheney wrote:
| I don't blame the school for that at all. Mental health
| requires a masters degree and pays next to nothing. You can
| make more as a teacher. This isn't a secret.
| eindiran wrote:
| This creates an incentive structure that is exactly the
| opposite of what you want.
| BizarroLand wrote:
| How so? Take a lower paying course that benefits society
| for little or no cost to you or a higher paying course that
| will push you into the upper middle or lower upper class
| that costs more.
|
| The only losers here would be the colleges that no longer
| get to charge the same $300k for every degree they stamp.
|
| Where is my logic wrong?
| bmhin wrote:
| The loan burden is on many people who do not complete
| their degrees. If a college's options are: enroll people
| in very low margin degrees, with likely comparable costs,
| or enroll people in the high margin (& high earning)
| degrees but with a success rate of ~75% year over year,
| the school makes way more money but only a third come out
| with the value add degree. The incentive there is to push
| people into the alluring high risk high reward field
| cause they make revenue regardless. Let in more people,
| allow for bigger class sizes, offer more classes, etc.
|
| The happy path might be the same or better, but the sad
| path gets grimmer. All that said, the completion rate
| fiasco is it's whole own can of worms.
| zdragnar wrote:
| It funnels poor people into low paying jobs, and those
| who are better off into higher paying jobs, as they can
| afford the risk of taking out the loans (and likely have
| parents with good credit to back them).
|
| Of course, that's assuming that the cost of lost tuition
| on cheapo degrees is made up by bumping up the cost of
| good job degrees. If you merely cut the tuition of some
| without raising the rest, then you will need to deal with
| all the school's who have wildly outsized budgets that
| were being subsidized by the cheapo degrees.
|
| Or, the government will end up paying for it, and
| there'll be a glut of social worker degrees flipping
| burgers because social work and library sciences have a
| relatively fixed number of positions available.
| eindiran wrote:
| Loosely, jobs which pay poorly have a lot of labor supply
| relative to demand and jobs that pay well have a lot of
| demand relative to supply.
|
| If you artificially change the price of degrees to match
| the expected lifetime ROI of that degree, you are
| decreasing the barrier to jobs that we already have too
| many people attempting to do and increasing the barrier
| to jobs we need more people to do.
|
| Of course this analysis overlooks that some jobs are
| "good for society" on some metric, but no one wants to
| pay for them. But then the approach should be to directly
| incentivize those jobs eg through grants or government-
| funded work programs.
| jeffy90 wrote:
| There's a shortage of software engineers and we need more
| students to enroll in STEM. When deciding between an
| expensive STEM degree or a free liberal arts degree,
| students are incentivized to chose the free degree in
| your proposed solution.
| BizarroLand wrote:
| But as it stands right now, people are equally
| incentivized to take degrees for passion as they are for
| profit, possibly to their own detriment when one comes
| with misery from poverty and the other with misery from
| golden handcuffs.
|
| Not everyone is cut out for a STEM career. You can't turn
| cavemen into electrical engineers if the aptitude isn't
| there, right?
|
| It's not a big leap to say that some people will
| prioritize greed over compatibility and end up risking
| being able to cheat their way through or flunking out /
| being expelled if they fail with nothing but either a
| degree they aren't qualified to possess or a debt they
| aren't able to repay.
|
| A lot of people in IT would be happier as truck drivers,
| a lot of engineers would be happier as welders. It always
| boils down to balancing the money with the passion, and
| the current system is balanced to the college's coffers.
|
| I did preface my original statement by saying that I
| don't know if there is a good solution. I proffered a
| solution knowing that it wasn't a good solution because
| there are things I with my single brain simply am not
| capable of calculating for, but I believe we can all
| agree that the current system has some significant flaws
| that should be addressed, right?
| ndesaulniers wrote:
| > Adults have a right to make poor choices.
|
| Perhaps, but I do think we should defend the stupid from
| predators and predatory behaviors.
|
| > Why in God's name would you go 300k in debt to make 50k ?
|
| Takes money to make money. What's the break-even point? That
| 300k is a one time cost; that 50k is recurring yearly.
| jeffy90 wrote:
| I guess the question should be why would you spend 300k at
| USC to make 50k, when you could spend 50k somewhere else to
| make the same 50k.
| ttcbj wrote:
| My favorite idea for this issue is that the gov't should pay
| for college, except it should pay a multiple of the student's
| increase in earned taxable income averaged over the 5 years
| preceding and following the degree. High school students would
| have near zero income, so it would mostly be a multiple of
| their 5 year average income after graduation.
|
| This pays directly for what the gov't wants (increase in the
| student's productive utility in the economy), it correlates
| increasing expenditures with increasing long term tax income,
| and I think in the long term it would create structural
| incentives guiding students towards more practical degrees.
| renewiltord wrote:
| These degrees are worthless. The fields are worthless. And a
| constant ongoing propaganda campaign is waged to get people to
| pay for them. Helping along are an army of useful idiots who will
| pretend like this is academia when it is pseudoscience packaged
| up as a program to steal from unknowing young people.
|
| It's time for us to publish expected income based on major and
| university.
|
| "God forbid someone study something for the love of it". No, god
| doesn't forbid shit. But the realities of the fact that you gotta
| put food in your mouth constrain you.
|
| If money isn't such a big deal, why not just share the data. I'm
| sure people will say "Oh yeah, I think it's worth it for me to
| live my life in undischargeable debt so I can 'study' this major
| at this place and work for minimum wage".
| InitialLastName wrote:
| > The fields are worthless.
|
| You realize we're talking about social work here, right? God
| forbid someone help people with their work rather than find
| ways to lubricate an advertising delivery system at a FAANG.
| NateEag wrote:
| Not OP, but I suspect they call the field "useless" based on
| the belief that social work doesn't achieve its aims, not on
| the grounds that the aims are bad.
| BizarroLand wrote:
| Either that or they're judging the career based on its
| lifetime potential remuneration and not the internal
| passion of the pursuer or the external social value it
| provides. Social workers, like teachers and janitors are
| vastly undervalued for what they provide (in optimal
| circumstances).
| cm2012 wrote:
| Way more of a scam than any bootcamp
| mdavis6890 wrote:
| It doesn't sound like the students have as big a problem as the
| LENDERS do! Why don't the students just not pay the bill and file
| bankruptcy? If the loans aren't government loans that aren't
| bankrupt-able, then I think we have identified the problem right
| there.
|
| What we need to do is ensure that lenders bare the full cost of
| lending to people who likely will not be able to pay them back.
| maerF0x0 wrote:
| not to be too cold about the real people hurt by the
| mischaracterization, but...
|
| My local ferrari dealership basically implies my life will be
| perfect (all the pretty women will fawn over me!!) if I just buy
| one of their cars. America made these institutions into for
| profit companies. We have to stop giving them the goodwill we'd
| afford to altruistic/idealistic academic institutions.
|
| Yes USC has a "not for profit" label, but just because the label
| says "water" doesn't mean there isn't gasoline in that bottle --
| use some common sense and call a bird a duck by it's quack.
| mrits wrote:
| Your Ferrari dealer at least has a point though. You also can
| get most of your money back if you decide to sell later.
| YetAnotherNick wrote:
| But you don't get to use it. You could drop off in the first
| semester by that logic and it would have saved most of her
| money.
| 999900000999 wrote:
| You can also file for bankruptcy 3 years after driving the
| car off the lot.
| vgeek wrote:
| Exactly. I used to consider academia as a separate entity from
| the private sector, thinking it was full of altruistic
| individuals wanting to further the knowledge of humanity. Then
| I started seeing that _most_ colleges operate as tax-exempt
| businesses with different marketing strategies, products and
| target consumers. They 're just layers of bureaucracy while
| those delivering the most value (professors) regularly get
| treated rather poorly (pay, job security, responsibilities,
| etc.) while the administrators soak up all of the benefits. How
| do the objectives get shifted back towards learning rather than
| building new stadiums and student centers?
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| In my experience its split within the university itself, with
| most of the actual academics being lower paid and about
| furthering knowledge and teaching. The other administrative
| departments are the ones with questionable utility and
| motives, its like they're being taken over by MBAs
| ishjoh wrote:
| It's not just MBAs it's M*, I have a close friend who works
| in the administration for a well known university, her
| department administration will not hire any junior person
| that doesn't have a masters degree, it doesn't particularly
| matter what masters degree they have, just as long as they
| have one.
|
| In addition to requiring a masters degree, my friends admin
| department is way over staffed, having come from private
| industry my friend is shocked at how little people do. My
| friend has a boss whose screen they can see, and estimates
| that the boss puts in roughly 15mins of work per day and
| spends the rest of the time on Twitter & Facebook. My
| friend estimates that the headcount is roughly 3 times more
| than it would be in private industry
| paulpauper wrote:
| Low-ranking but expensive private colleges are such a racket,
| overall. Paying $100k for Brown has a way higher ROI than paying
| $100k for No-name U.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| I think the biggest difference in college since I went to
| school is that the gap between the cost of an elite school and
| a random state-school has narrowed significantly.
|
| I had a friend who paid his way through college with summer
| construction jobs and graduated with about $10k in debt.
|
| People who were willing to work part-time during the school
| year could graduate debt free. Tuition at an exclusive liberal
| arts school was 5-10x the cost of tuition at a state school in-
| state and almost double the cost of a state school out-of-
| state.
| colinmhayes wrote:
| UIUC instate total cost is 30k a year, including room/board.
| If you're working full time and living a poverty lifestyle
| you can graduate debt free easily enough, especially if you
| get prestigious internships.
| notJim wrote:
| I worked 20 hrs a week steadily while getting my degree and
| it was pretty difficult. Working full time would be super
| hard. You would also miss a lot of the other benefits of
| the school because you'd be at work all the time. If
| someone could work part time and graduate with a minor
| amount of debt, that would be far better IMO.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Not sure about UIUC, but $3600 in in-state tuition for
| Purdue in 1999; ~$10k including room/board/books. Out of
| state was $8k more.
|
| Purdue froze the in-state tuition at $10k some years ago,
| but did so by reducing the number of in-state students that
| were admitted; they need far more out-of-state (and out-of-
| country) students to subsidize that each year.
| ishjoh wrote:
| I'm happy you included that, my alma matter has also
| turned to this, the percentage of out of country compared
| to in state has changed drastically since I went there. I
| feel bad for the kids applying who in years passed would
| have been accepted but now aren't because of these
| perverse incentives.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| I wouldn't wish having to work full-time while doing
| undergrad on anybody.
| imperialdrive wrote:
| That's a great way to tarnish all USC alumni. I hope they give
| the school an earful for this disgusting practice.
| Jdixnxjsj wrote:
| How does this tarnish USC's other degrees? 99% of alumni don't
| have degrees in social work.
| wnissen wrote:
| I don't know that USC was that prestigious outside of the
| sports/marching band arenas. But charging the same price for
| online is horrible. Honestly, though, it says a lot about CSUs
| that you can go there, borrow two thirds less, and still make
| more money than a USC grad.
| colinmhayes wrote:
| USC is just as prestigious as UCLA. They've easily got the
| most prestigious film program in the world.
| clairity wrote:
| usc is a money-oriented pay-for-prestige institution, and
| most folks know it, which is why it always lags ucla (and
| others) in prestige outside of the cinema school (even that
| has been bought, by old-money hollywood). other programs,
| like engineering, are solid, but suffer from the overall
| shallowness of usc's image, as well as the many scandals
| that have further tarnished the brand.
| bruceb wrote:
| "..it says a lot about CSUs that you can go there, borrow two
| thirds less, and still make more money than a USC grad."
|
| For the same degree?
| Domenic_S wrote:
| Their film school is ostensibly great, turning out directors
| such as Judd Apatow and George Lucas
| nradov wrote:
| What is the median student debt for USC film school
| graduates, and what percentage of them default?
| nsxwolf wrote:
| Seems like people have been warned about this stuff for over a
| decade now and we keep hearing about it. When will students stop
| taking the bait?
| MeinBlutIstBlau wrote:
| When people can make middle class livings again without being
| shut out of a job for lack of a college degree.
|
| My previous job I worked at required a Bachelors in business of
| any kind. I got it because I worked at the company and
| basically beat out external candidates even though I didn't
| have a degree. Know what it paid?
|
| $15/hr.
|
| This is why people are duped into college degrees.
| strix_varius wrote:
| I don't have a degree, but I have an excellent job, and I
| used to consider myself lucky to be a tech-based outlier. But
| given how much I've paid this year for refinishing hardwood
| floors, installing gas lines, plumbing, and electrical work,
| I now wonder if tech is really that unique.
|
| The contractors I talk to are booked out for weeks, and I
| need their expertise much more than they need my business.
| I'm not convinced that lacking a degree shuts people out of
| good jobs. My cynical take is that there's a mismatch between
| what people are willing and able to do, and what activities
| are valuable.
|
| Most people aren't willing to work inside peoples' mouths all
| day. Dentists make bank. The HN crowd notwithstanding, most
| people would hate carefully crafting digital products all
| day. Software devs make bank. Most people aren't willing to
| crawl underneath houses to hook up potentially-dangerous
| electric/gas lines. etc.
| MeinBlutIstBlau wrote:
| > Most people aren't willing to crawl underneath houses to
| hook up potentially-dangerous electric/gas lines. etc.
|
| In a past life, I tried the general laborer gamit and it's
| impossible to get a job there too. Simply cause nobody
| hires you unless it's by word of mouth. So it's even worse
| than being shut out for not having a degree. So overall,
| it's no so much that people don't believe that they need a
| degree, it's the path of least resistance since you can at
| least get your foot in the door through a company once you
| pass the minimum qualifications. General labor stuff, good
| luck getting a job in a specialized field. I tried breaking
| into HVAC and I couldn't even get an unpaid apprenticeship
| cause people just won't do it.
| nsxwolf wrote:
| You're making the case that you don't actually need the
| degree. You're far better off without it, if you're going to
| end up with a job that pays the same regardless. The problem
| seems to be no one is being properly warned before making the
| decision, or those warnings aren't being heeded.
| MeinBlutIstBlau wrote:
| It is exactly that. Schools just want people to churn and
| nothing more. They don't care even if you graduate. The
| worst part is that everybody thinks education is the
| lifeblood of happy people so you can't tell these schools
| to screw without some insane liberal screaming you're
| trying to disenfranchise the poor.
|
| The thing is, most kids go to school not knowing what they
| want to do. If that is the case, going to college is the
| absolute worst possible decision you could ever make. On
| top of that, you might even be going into a field you
| despise but can't back out now.
| autokad wrote:
| I dont understand how online degrees cost so much. When I taught,
| I was paid around 10-15k$. I had 25 students paying 6600$ tuition
| + fees. I get that the 15000$<<165,000$ is because of
| infrastructure, etc, but online? really?
| [deleted]
| varispeed wrote:
| Is there a point today to get a degree in the IT space?
| Universities are a thing of the past where the access to quality
| knowledge is ubiquitous. I mean most of thing that get you a
| decent job you can learn even on YT for free. Sure you are going
| to need some self-discipline and a lot of practice but it is
| perfectly doable. For $115k you could have plenty of funds to
| hire some pros to mark your home works or give some pointers. I
| think only advantage of Uni is that you can get connections, but
| you can also get them by going to local meet ups.
| TheMagicHorsey wrote:
| It's the degree that matters as much as (or more than) the
| institution. If you get a degree in a field that has low barriers
| of entry, few employers (or only a monopoly employer such as the
| state), and no opportunity to freelance, then you will not get
| high wages.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| hackermailman wrote:
| Cheapest online US regional accreditation is WGU, which you can
| do at own pace so if you know calculus you can just write the
| exam. UK open u is probably the next cheapest but not by much.
| UoP is on regional accreditation path but only national right
| now.
|
| Everything else is going to be min $40k bachelor or $20k+ Masters
| but even Arizona pricey online deg is cheaper than this article
| or Florida U, both have real curriculum not extension school
| shenanigans
| IronWolve wrote:
| I think WGU is probably the best model to get degrees to people
| at a much lower cost and for working class people to do it
| while they work.
|
| Its more geared like a trade school, online, at a fraction of
| the cost. Get people into teaching, nursing, business and IT,
| as fast as possible and cheap as possible.
|
| Many of these workers are less impacted with a 30k loan (same
| as a car) than a 100-150k school loan.
|
| I know a few people who worked at minimum pay jobs and WGU was
| an option to get a degree and not go into debt for life.
|
| Thats how I heard of it, and looked into it, and was rather
| impressed with the courses, cost and speed.
|
| I was even tempted to sign up and pass the basic courses
| quickly, as I've been in IT for 30 years, and get a degree
| cheaply. Plus learn some new skills.
| hpoe wrote:
| I'm going to take a minute to plug WGU I got my undergrad and
| grad from there and it is fantastic. I would recommend it for
| anyone that is already working and needs a piece of paper.
|
| They work on a competency based model where you either take a
| test, or do a project/paper (or both) for the class to pass it.
| If it takes you 3 weeks to study and pass the test it takes 3
| weeks, if it takes 2 days you can pass the class in 2 days. The
| major benefit though is that you pay a flat price for a
| semester and then you can do as many credits as you want in
| that semester for a flat fee, so if you want you can get 24
| credits done in one semester.
|
| Additionally this isn't an ITT Tech or DeVrye type scam where
| they just push you through, a lot of the classes are based
| around industry certs as the final test for the class, and they
| give a through grounding in a lot of areas.
|
| The flip side is they are very focused on practical job skills
| and not so much theory, I personally think it results in a more
| well rounded engineering student who is able to work in
| Networking, Software Development or Systems Admin reasonably
| competently.
|
| Again I am a fun I recommend it, I wish everyone would start
| doing it because I think it is a game changer. Feel free to AMA
| if you have more questions about it.
| Zircom wrote:
| I just enrolled this past weekend actually, I got my
| associate's in CS a few years ago and am finally in a
| financial situation to finish up my the bachelor's.
|
| What exactly is the course content like? From previous online
| courses I've taken from Coursera/Pluralsight/other platforms
| video lectures seem to be the the norm which I actually
| really hate, I rarely attended lectures and instead would
| just read the material, turn the HW in, and come in for
| quizzes/exams. Watching and listending is just not the way I
| learn, something about reading it makes it sink it better.
| And do they still require you to buy additional textbooks or
| is all the necessary content included in the course modules?
|
| How engaged/competent are the instructors assigned to the
| courses? If I have questions is it easy to get a hold of
| them, and do they actually know the material enough to be
| able to adequately explain things and guide students to
| better understand the material?
| suresk wrote:
| The actual content is almost all reading, often with
| interactive exercises.
|
| The way you pass a course is through an assessment at the
| end - either a proctored multiple-choice test or some sort
| of project you complete and have graded. A few courses have
| both. For the ones that have a test, there is a pre-test
| you can take at any time to see how ready you are for the
| test - for the most part they've been relatively close to
| the actual tests.
|
| I haven't needed help from instructors very much, but when
| I have had questions they've been pretty responsive. They
| are also fairly responsive on the "chatter", which is a
| terrible, limited chat/forum-like thing for each course.
| suresk wrote:
| It is also regionally accredited, which is important if you
| are hoping to go onto grad school or transfer credits to a
| different university later.
|
| I am about 75% through the program and for someone who has
| been in the field for a while, it is really good. A lot of
| classes have just been taking a quick test to prove
| competency, but the discrete math and computer architecture
| classes were really interesting and useful.
|
| That said, I'd be slightly hesitant to fully recommend it to
| someone who had zero prior programming experience. The fact
| that there are no assignments and only a handful of courses
| that require projects means you can graduate without having
| written a ton of code, and the code you do write is somewhat
| disjointed - a few Python courses, 2 Java courses (with a
| heavy emphasis on JavaFX), and a random C++ course that
| seemed pretty out of place. I don't that is the worst thing
| in the world, but if someone comes in cold and just checks
| all the boxes to get through the program as quickly as
| possible, they may find themselves ill-prepared for
| interviews and their first job.
| [deleted]
| IncRnd wrote:
| https://archive.md/wPRPz
| nomilk wrote:
| Doesn't seem to be on WBM yet. Any link to the full text (without
| paywall)?
| BingoAhoy wrote:
| Trick is, to go to archive.vn website or any other equivalent.
| In second search box copy article url in and click. Sometimes
| you have to remove unnecessary url query parameters like amp
| for it to work.
|
| https://archive.vn/Wx7mx
| parm289 wrote:
| Perhaps a bit off topic, but seeing the breadth of general
| discussion about online CS masters programs in this thread,
| figured I'd ask the HN crowd:
|
| How is a program like the Penn MCIT Online degree[0] viewed by
| engineering and product hiring teams in industry? I am looking at
| transitioning from venture capital investing to SWE (and
| potentially product, given my business background) and this seems
| like a good option to facilitate that change - education in CS
| fundamentals (vs. a bootcamp) but still a reasonably
| short/practical program (10 courses).
|
| Curious if there are engineers/PMs here that have gone through
| MCIT or similar to pivot into software from another field? Or, if
| any hiring managers here have hired graduates from these online
| degree programs and have insight/advice?
|
| [0]: https://online.seas.upenn.edu/degrees/mcit-online/
| autokad wrote:
| I can't speak of the online degree, but the MCIT program is
| pretty good. I graduated from the standard CS but many of my
| friends were in the MCIT degree. Given they came from more
| varied backgrounds, I actually thought the student body was
| more impressive.
|
| However, I dont know how all of this online stuff is going to
| effect things. I would just show up to wharton classes and wait
| for them to not kick me out, but online ... no chance. You also
| miss out on all the great conversations and doing study groups
| at the library, etc.
|
| The program is strong, and it will help you get lots of
| interviews, but I'd do what ever possible to do the in person
| degree. I c an recommend good DS classes at the school if you
| are interested in that topic
| vondur wrote:
| Just a casual looks shows that salaries in the Social Work field
| don't pay that well. I'm not sure how getting a Masters Degree
| will help someone. I see this in some other fields here at the
| University I work at. Students will get a degree that has a
| limited job outlook, and in order to actually get a job in that
| field, they believe getting a Masters will help them out in the
| long run, but often times does not. If I were in that position,
| I'd only look at Public Universities where the pricing should be
| far better than a private University.
| heisenbit wrote:
| I can imagine some degrees making sort of sense done online but
| social which needs so much human context?
| jdavis703 wrote:
| I'm sure there's value in a masters social work degree, but not
| for anyone who wants to do hands-on work. If folks feel they
| want to do higher level work (i.e. addressing systemic issues
| that are behind the day-to-day issues social workers help
| with), then the degree could be useful.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Pretty sure that an MSW is required to be a social worker in
| my county; not sure if it's a statewide requirement in CA.
| jamestimmins wrote:
| Licensed Clinical Social Workers in California have to get
| 3,200 hours of supervised work after graduation.
|
| This isn't "social worker" in the loose sense of someone in
| the community. These are health professionals who receive
| extensive training in mental and emotional conditions.
|
| Source: My wife is currently in school to be an LCSW, and
| her focus is treating adults with severe mental health
| issues.
| jdavis703 wrote:
| What's the reasoning behind this? Like librarians,
| firefighters and cops often serve as de-facto social
| workers... And sure they can't handle the most complex
| cases. But a lot of times someone's problem might boil down
| to something simple, like they just need shoes or a meal.
| levi-turner wrote:
| > Like librarians
|
| Funny you should mention librarians. It is not uncommon
| for any role which is titled "librarian" to require a
| masters of library science / information science. Example
| job ad: https://workforcenow.adp.com/mascsr/default/mdf/r
| ecruitment/... *
|
| Other roles are commonly called "Information Specialist"
| or assorted similar titles (example: https://workforcenow
| .adp.com/mascsr/default/mdf/recruitment/...).
|
| * Picked this library at random. I'd imagine smaller
| cities are a bit more flexible here, but I'd still take
| an even money bet that anyone who is under 45 at any
| library at random with the formal title of "librarian"
| has a masters degree.
| robocat wrote:
| Librarian is a very high status job for "alternatives" in
| New Zealand. Because of that, libraries can demand high
| levels of credentials for low levels of pay.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| My guess is it's liability. 99% of the policies that the
| department of social services has is to cover their asses
| when they get sued. The remaining 1% sometimes manages to
| help people as well.
|
| I should note that a lot of the work for open cases goes
| to (lower paid) case-aids, and certain things can be
| delegated to volunteers (e.g. I've provided
| transportation to school for kids who were placed in a
| foster house outside their school district).
| notJim wrote:
| My dad was an lcsw and it's nothing like what you're
| describing. A lot of what he did was counseling people
| with very serious mental health issues and trauma, often
| with criminal histories. He was specifically involved in
| helping people find careers and housing that would allow
| them to build a stable life. These people had such
| difficult backgrounds that it took counseling just to get
| them to that point.
|
| I would also add that if you follow the news in the us,
| it certainly seems like cops need far more training for
| dealing with these issues.
| woeirua wrote:
| The only way to effectively address the college tuition bubble is
| going to be for Congress to pass a law that caps the amount of
| student loans that someone can draw to be proportional to their
| expected salary over X years on a per-school, per-program basis.
| That would put a lot of pressure on underperforming programs and
| schools to produce better value for their students, either by
| improving outcomes, or by reducing the cost of tuition.
|
| Yes, regrettably some programs would go the way of the dodo, but
| we shouldn't be saddling our kids with crippling debt so that
| they can do four years of college and end up in the same place
| they were before they went to college from a career prospective.
| If people want to spend their _own_ money to study underwater
| basketweaving, then so be it.
|
| Also, federal loans should be extended to vocational training
| programs under the same stipulations.
|
| Edit: the DOE should also have the ability to give
| programs/schools the death penalty (no loans) if they are found
| to be manipulating data used for these calculations.
| YetAnotherNick wrote:
| This sounds good on paper but this would just lead to degrees
| like liberal arts to be removed from the country.
| Axien wrote:
| Too complicated. I would make a rule that any Bachelors program
| costing more than 15k is ineligible for student loans.
| Magically those $60k programs will fall to $15k.
|
| The reason college is so expensive is because that is what
| people are willing to take loans to cover.
| jagraff wrote:
| Instead of a cap, why not just make student loans dischargeable
| in bankruptcy? Let the market sort out the expected value of
| degrees based on the expected probability of bankruptcy
| rfreiberger wrote:
| Not sure if this is the same but a few universities will offer
| certificates and degrees in various subjects off campus. I think
| these are mostly sold as "business development" but I always
| wondered if they were simply fly by night education with the
| stamp of "prestige college".
| vgeek wrote:
| Colleges have been quietly expanding the last 10-15 years with
| programs like these. They do it discreetly, sometimes with
| different campuses across town or simply online. From what I've
| seen, they may be an entirely separate school so as to not be
| reported on the same way (a 7% acceptance rate and high job
| placement rates at blue chip firms makes a difference when the
| major currency of universities is prestige), since many of them
| are essentially open admissions.
|
| E.g. On LinkedIn I frequently see Harvard listed on profiles, but
| upon digging in, it is Harvard Extension School which mostly
| seems to offer certificates. The recipients win (they get to put
| Harvard on their resume, albeit paying high fees for online only,
| ignoring costs/default rates) and the college wins (they get
| paid, the marginal cost per student is probably favorable, degree
| vs certificates probably doesn't matter if the same content and
| tests apply). The only people potentially negatively impacted
| will be the students of the traditional organization in that they
| paid full tuition for a college brand that is actively diluting
| itself by selling certificates that may have lower standards that
| traditionally associated with the organization.
| ilamont wrote:
| Harvard Extension grad here. Even though most people taking
| Extension School classes are casual class-takers, the liberal
| arts degree programs for undergraduates and graduate students
| are well established
| (https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2021/10/7/extension-
| schoo...).
|
| While the Extension School does offer certificate programs,
| it's the Harvard Business School that has really benefited
| IMHO. They are really pushing hard to grow them
| (https://online.hbs.edu/blog/post/hbs-online-certificate-
| of-s...).
|
| You are correct about the growth of online degrees. HES degree
| programs received a massive boost when online classes were
| offered and "professional" concentrations (business,
| technology) were made available at the graduate level starting
| about 15 years ago. The number of new degrees awarded every
| year has tripled as a result.
|
| Note that the University does not allow the Extension School to
| award MS or MBA degrees, and there is a lot of controversy over
| the convoluted and demeaning designation that's used on our
| degrees (https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2021/3/9/extension-
| school...).
|
| The other area in which the Harvard Extension School is well-
| known is its post-bacc. It's highly regarded, and people who
| complete the program have been admitted to top-tier medical
| schools across the U.S. (https://extension.harvard.edu/academic
| s/programs/premedical-...).
| varispeed wrote:
| What job can you get after liberal arts degree? I am guessing
| politics?
| klipklop wrote:
| Or any other tech company that you can pass the interview
| bar for. I know plenty of people working at FAANG with a
| liberal arts degree or no degree at all.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| very few people are paid for "poly-tricks"
| ilamont wrote:
| Depends on the degree and the person.
|
| I completed a history degree. For my thesis I carried out a
| computer content analysis of Xinhua (Xin Hua She ), China's
| official news agency, to gauge Beijing's foreign policy
| priorities in Southeast Asia during the Deng Xiaoping era.
| My faculty advisor said that I could get a job as an
| analyst if I were willing to move to Washington (I was not
| interested in doing this).
| kenchan wrote:
| > Depends on the degree and the person.
|
| I graduated with a Psychology degree. I worked at a lot
| of BS jobs after college from recruiting and customer
| service which lead me to pursue sales for more money. Did
| sales for about seven years for various industries, left
| sales about two years ago, and now I work in totally
| different field that funny enough isn't customer facing.
| Being under 40, I'm proud to say that I am very close to
| what I feel is financial freedom.
|
| Anecdotally, one of my friend circles consists of some
| engineers, doctors, lawyers, CEOs - you get it, the book
| smart people. Very well educated, went to prestigious
| universities, earned their highly respected degrees, etc.
| Most of them today are solidly traffic jammed in the rat
| race like the majority of society.
|
| I have another friend circle, not nearly as educated as
| the friends highlighted above, who some are sitting on
| multi-million stock portfolios/assets/whatever. One of
| them who really stands out paid one of our other friend
| to write all his papers in college. Think he barely
| squeezed out a C average.
|
| It really depends on the person. I work for an Elon Musk
| company if anyone cares.
| OldHand2018 wrote:
| > On LinkedIn I frequently see Harvard listed on profiles, but
| upon digging in, it is Harvard Extension School which mostly
| seems to offer certificates.
|
| Harvard Extension started in the 1830s and became a formal
| division of the university over 100 years ago. They offer real
| degrees to "non-traditional" students. People that get admitted
| get the same student ID card that everyone else gets, has the
| same facility access, etc.
|
| The biggest transgression is that Harvard gives those graduates
| a liberal arts degree in "extension studies" without naming the
| concentration.
|
| People also seem to have issues with the fact that anyone that
| applies and meets the requirements is admitted as a student.
| But if you count the number of people that start with one of
| the "courses for entry" and compare to the number of people who
| actually get admitted, their admission rate would be even lower
| than, say, the Harvard Kennedy School (which by the way is
| willing to grant a master's degree to someone that doesn't even
| have an undergraduate degree).
|
| Why it gets such flack for being "Harvard, but not really"
| doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Harvard College - the
| undergraduate school - is the super exclusive part. Harvard
| University - the collection of graduate schools plus the
| college - is huge with a wide variety of exclusivity and
| completely uncorrelated ability.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| All non-thesis CS master degrees are a bit suspect. They are
| basically a few more courses, usually at night for professional
| students, but increasingly online. I'm not really sure what
| kind of value they add beyond looking good on a resume.
|
| Thesis masters are increasingly rare these days as American
| schools allow you to jump straight to a PhD program (Europe is
| a bit more rigid here). The other kind of Masters degree that
| is increasingly popular is the 5th year undergrad extension,
| which makes a lot of a sense (MIT started the trend here, other
| schools have followed).
| stagger87 wrote:
| Why does a 5th year undergrad extension make sense but not a
| non-thesis masters? They are effectively the same thing
| right? Additional classes?
| Umofomia wrote:
| I can only speak for MIT, but its 5th year Masters of
| Engineering program does require a thesis[1]. It makes
| sense for a lot of students at MIT since many undergrads
| take graduate-level classes anyway (since they can also
| fulfill undergrad requirements and are often more
| interesting anyway) so it's only slightly more effort to do
| the thesis and get the Masters.
|
| In my own personal experience, I was already done with the
| graduate class requirement after my 4th year, so I only had
| to concentrate on doing the thesis during the 5th year
| (though I also enrolled in a couple electives of my own
| choosing). For me, that year was relatively more chill than
| my previous years.
|
| [1] https://www.eecs.mit.edu/academics/undergraduate-
| programs/me...
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| You get a lot of value out of a 4 year undergrad degree,
| much more than a masters. So just building on that degree
| immediately with more intense course work and some
| independent thesis project seems like a win to me. I would
| have loved to have had an extra year on my undergrad degree
| for some graduate-level courses and independent project
| time.
| wbraun wrote:
| The MIT 5th year masters program for EECS requires a thesis
| and for you to find a faculty thesis advisor that is separate
| from your academic advisor.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Ya, I forgot that point. But it is usually one semester of
| classes + one semester of writing a thesis (not sure what
| MIT does these days, I think this is what UCLA does), which
| isn't the usual one year of courses + one year of thesis
| writing.
| jdavis703 wrote:
| During the aftermath of the 2008 financial crash there were
| even tech support jobs asking for a masters degree. This has
| basically gone away with the tight STEM labor market. But it
| was one of the reasons I wound up getting a BS in IT instead
| of going straight from grade school to tech support.
| snakeboy wrote:
| I've spent a lot of time interviewing data scientists for an
| entry-level position lately, and it's pretty shocking to hear
| them describe their master's "capstone project", which often
| consists of a group project with some pre-cleaned data. A few
| calls to sklearn later, bam, an M.S.
| joconde wrote:
| Seems that all schools added a "data science"
| specialization a few years ago, but of course they can't
| suddenly become good at it if they haven't done it before.
|
| My master in a no-name French tech school was mostly a
| software development curriculum, with some DL and scikit-
| learn courses tacked on. That was for the paper, the actual
| skills came on the job and online.
| chucksmash wrote:
| FWIW, I don't think Harvard Extension School is a good example
| of this trend. It was founded in 1910 with a fairly egalitarian
| ideal to serve the people of Boston. Not quite a latter day
| cash-in.
|
| I retook Calc I through the extension school six or seven years
| ago out of curiosity when I was considering doing an online
| Master's. Rigor was on par with my undergrad Calc I or perhaps
| a little higher and the quality of instruction was definitely
| higher. The lecturer (Eric Towne!) had a command of the people
| and history surrounding the concepts he was teaching and shared
| lots of fascinating context.
| m0lecules wrote:
| OTOH, you have schools like (the actual) Georgia Tech offering
| an online MS in CS for an affordable price:
| https://omscs.gatech.edu/
| zeropoint46 wrote:
| I wish they had something like this for undergrad.
| vasusen wrote:
| University of London offers a Bachelor of Science (BSc) in
| Computer Science degree -
| https://www.coursera.org/degrees/bachelor-of-science-
| compute....
|
| Full disclosure: I work at Coursera.
| nvusuvu wrote:
| Do you know how much the tuition/fees cost for this?
| fifthofhisname wrote:
| Oregon State University offers an online B.S. in Computer
| Science and Engineering. [0]
|
| They also offer an accelerated course if you already have
| an undergrad degree (e.g. for those looking for a career
| change). [1]
|
| [1] https://ecampus.oregonstate.edu/online-
| degrees/undergraduate... [0]
| https://ecampus.oregonstate.edu/online-
| degrees/undergraduate...
| zeropoint46 wrote:
| thank you for this. I looked at this a while ago and
| forgot about it, I think I'll have a look again.
| datavirtue wrote:
| Finally. When my wife went there they only had biology
| and ag tracks online.
| echelon wrote:
| This is the university that started it all. They've had the
| program for about a decade now, and they do a ridiculously
| good job. [1]
|
| It's a rigorous degree, they only admit a limited number of
| students (so your application has to be reasonable), and it's
| completely affordable. It's also indistinguishable from their
| on-campus MS in CS. It doesn't say you took it "online" after
| you graduate. Georgia Tech is a pretty outstanding school, so
| this looks good for places that care.
|
| If you want an MS in CS and want to do it from home, this is
| the one you want.
|
| [1] Anecdotal, but I know five colleagues that have taken it
| and have nothing but praise for the program. The two I am
| closest to used for the following cases:
|
| 1. A CS grad working in the field used it to explore machine
| learning a decade after college. They had no previous
| experience with the field and then shifted into a deep
| learning role shortly before graduation.
|
| 2. Another close friend was a graduate working in radio
| research and wanted to learn CS fundamentals (OS,
| distributed, etc.). They're still doing radio work, but they
| used it to get an expanded role and a pretty substantial
| raise.
|
| Both were very happy with the program. Both completed the
| program while working full time, though they admitted it was
| a ton of work.
| AceyMan wrote:
| My current Director completed the online Tech MCS and said
| it was "challenging." Considering he's a polyglot tech wiz
| who masters new material ridiculously fast, it's clear that
| this program is the real deal.
|
| [disclaimer: from ATL, dad went to Tech, &c.]
| dgritsko wrote:
| I was lucky enough to be part of the first cohort admitted
| to the OMSCS program, and completed it while working full
| time. It was a fantastic experience that I'm very thankful
| for, but it was one of the most challenging things I've
| ever done.
| mrandolph wrote:
| about halfway through it myself. I spend about 20-30 hours
| a week on it. It's definitely a challenging program but the
| value is ridiculously good.
|
| I've learned an incredible amount of incredible things.
| While it's difficult to manage both the program and other
| life obligations, I'll be a bit sad once it's over.
| [deleted]
| robotresearcher wrote:
| > This is the university that started it all
|
| The Open University (UK) has offered decently-regarded
| remote degree programs since 1969.
|
| In the 1970s they used to show lectures on national
| broadcast TV in the otherwise-unused hours of the day. Was
| cool.
|
| https://www.open.ac.uk
| namelessoracle wrote:
| The failure rate is very high from what I hear. Which i
| guess is the best way to tell if a program is legit.
| echelon wrote:
| It is. It's a legitimate degree and they won't let you
| slack off.
|
| Some of the classes have a metric ton of homework and
| projects, and the deadlines can be pretty rough. I know
| my coworker was sweating after work a few times (this was
| pre-pandemic) and told me they'd be spending a few
| evenings implementing project work.
| namelessoracle wrote:
| I remember a coworker telling me he had to learn assembly
| in a week for a major assignment his very first semester.
| And that caused a good chunk of his cohort to drop the
| program.
| Icathian wrote:
| I'd give 20 to 1 that was CS6035. Project 1 is a ret2libc
| buffer overflow, and it's a bit of a wake-up call for
| many students. Certainly was for me, though I got through
| it.
|
| I can't say enough good things about OMSCS. I'm finishing
| my 7th class and got an SWE role during my 5th. It's the
| real deal.
| cji wrote:
| My guess was CS6265 which similarly jumps pretty quickly
| into reverse engineering and binary exploitation. One of
| my favorite classes!
| rripken wrote:
| Just a few evenings? I spent entire weekends, sometimes
| all-nighters and even taking days off from work to finish
| big assignments. But I was working full-time with a
| significant commute and family responsibilities. Btw, I
| enjoyed every minute of it.
| ativzzz wrote:
| > It's also indistinguishable from their on-campus MS in CS
|
| This isn't exactly true. Only a fraction of all classes are
| available for the online program. The computational
| perception & robotics specialization for instance has a
| very limited selection of classes available. Plus, you
| don't get the benefit of in-person networking with your
| peers and professors, but that's just the price of being
| remote.
| Whinner wrote:
| They also started an online MS in Cybersecurity in 2019.
| Three different tracks. The policy track only needs 1 CS'ish
| class. The Information Security track students would probably
| be better off just going for the MS in CS instead. A lot of
| students start in the Information Security track but switch
| over to Policy once they take the intro to info security
| class. All the classes in the Info Sec track are the same as
| the CS degree except they cost more. The energy/power track
| students don't seem to really exist. I'm done with 7/10
| classes.
| mikemac wrote:
| I assume you're in the CS track? How do you like it so far,
| and was your undergrad in CS?
| Zababa wrote:
| We have this in France too. Prestigious schools often have a
| "main" program, for which you need to do a classe preparatoire
| and a competition. But there are also other diplomas that you
| can get that still have the name of the school.
| lordnacho wrote:
| Indeed, I've seen Oxford pushing some Blockchain quickie
| courses. It seems like a double cross: smart people are not
| going to think it's the same as an Oxford degree (I'm biased on
| this but...) but you can still milk a few people for some
| money, in exchange for the brand.
|
| I'm not sure in the long run the institution wins. As you do
| more and more of these courses your marketing gets more and
| more obvious. Social media feeds, that sort of thing. You don't
| want to be that school that sells diplomas.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| > On LinkedIn I frequently see Harvard listed on profiles, but
| upon digging in, it is Harvard Extension School which mostly
| seems to offer certificates.
|
| This becomes awkward when interviewing if there's a real
| Harvard grad in the room. Invariably the first question they'll
| ask is which house the candidate was in.
| smeyer wrote:
| >Invariably the first question they'll ask is which house the
| candidate was in
|
| Are people actually asking this at the beginning of
| interviews? I'm a Harvard College grad, and that's a question
| I sometimes ask or am asked in social settings, but not in
| interview settings. When I've worked with interns or recent
| grads from the college it usually comes up eventually, but
| usually only after the internship/job has started and folks
| are starting to get each other.
| sgpl wrote:
| I think the biggest reason why the price is so high (beyond the
| brand, and the fact that the government policy results in
| everyone getting whatever loan amount they want) is because
| they're contractually required to share a huge chunk of that
| money with 2U (the same company that bought EDx's assets).
|
| The article mentions that the old contract stated that about 60%
| of revenue gets shared with 2U but then there was a revision to
| the contract so it's not clear what the current figure is but
| even if they lowered it to 40-55%, that's still a huge chunk of
| change for basically running ads to target students into the
| funnel. It's actually sickening that the contract extends to
| 2030.
|
| So USC is only getting $115,000 * .4 = $46,000 which while still
| high is substantially lower and sounds like a reasonable amount
| to offer the degree at. I'm not sure why they haven't built out
| an internal function since and tried to get out of the contract.
|
| For the peak year of graduation mentioned (2017, 1500 students),
| 2U's take at the 60% figure is ginormous. $115k * 1500 students *
| 0.6. = $103.5 million.
|
| Anyway there's so much wrong with what's happening here.
|
| EDIT: I just re-read the article, it seems like the 1500 figure
| is a combination of in-person and online graduates for the year
| 2017. Still the premise holds true: a 60% take rate is excessive.
| bklyn11201 wrote:
| The vast majority of elite institutions are completely
| unwilling to take the risks to capture 100% of the online
| revenue pie:
|
| a) They are unwilling to spend lots of money on upfront content
| development costs without knowing future revenue.
|
| b) They are unwilling to hire a bunch of temporary workers to
| help spin up new content and then re-allocate them.
|
| c) They are unwilling to adopt (aggressive) modern marketing
| techniques.
|
| d) They are unwilling to cold call.
|
| e) They are unwilling to maintain call centers.
|
| f) They are unwilling to spend _millions_ on FB and Goog ads
| even if it has positive ROI.
| vgeek wrote:
| All of these are true except for d and e. I get multiple
| calls per week some weeks asking for donations from various
| deparments, having never donated to my college and
| demonstrated no willingness to do so. If they can panhandle
| from alumni, why not call prospective students? Too low of an
| ROI or are they just playing hard to get?
| bklyn11201 wrote:
| I believe the difference is that institutions are using
| scholarship students to warm call alumni for donations vs.
| online program managers using large, paid call centers. I
| think it's just a different magnitude of marketing.
|
| Non-profits in general are using more and more professional
| calling services. Maybe they keep the easy (warm) calls in-
| house and then outsource all the more difficult calls to an
| outside service.
| clpm4j wrote:
| https://archive.md/Wx7mx
| adultSwim wrote:
| USC's Computer Science Master's is also a degree mill,
| particularly targeting foreign students who must pay full tuition
| in cash.
| cdgore wrote:
| I've heard people say this since the program is so large, but
| the same could be said for any large research university that
| has a CS master's program.
|
| Anecdotally, I got my master's degree in CS at USC and had a
| good experience overall. I definitely learned a lot and was
| able to fill in some gaps in my knowledge of CS theory and
| machine learning. I was also able to get offers from Google and
| Facebook from their on-campus recruiting programs, and I know
| several other people in my cohort that did the same.
| sjg007 wrote:
| Most CS masters programs are this way. They are a way to get
| into the H1B lottery.
| Emma_Goldman wrote:
| In the UK, 90% of masters programs work that way. Admissions
| criteria for international students are a lot lower, because
| they can charge them what they like. It's where they make a
| lot of their money.
| colinmhayes wrote:
| Almost all computer science masters programs exist to take
| money from foreign students who are looking to gain residency.
| TimPC wrote:
| Degrees are often used as proxies for an IQ test. To get into
| school X you must be at least Y smart. As long as we ban IQ tests
| for employment employers are going to keep using this as the best
| practical proxy. It's going to have these kinds of bad effects
| where people need to get $115k degrees to get a $50k job since
| some people will do so despite the nonsensical ROI. We need to
| remove the law banning IQ tests in job interviews and let
| employers test for the kinds of things they currently proxy by
| university degree.
| _red wrote:
| > As long as we ban IQ tests for employment employers are going
| to keep using this as the best practical proxy. I
|
| Thats probably true to a degree, however I think the system
| will breakdown this decade. Given current inflation rates,
| anyone with an IQ >120 will soon see that the debt/benefit
| ratio is becoming unworkable.
|
| The last 2 employees my company hired actually game via github
| - we were using an open-source repo that someone had made and
| eventually reached out and asked him if he wanted to consult
| for us and add some features to his code...that lead to an
| ongoing basic permanent consulting gig.
| go_blue_13 wrote:
| Doesn't inflation mean that nominal debt is less painful to
| hold? ie I go $100k into debt for a degree, but 5 years down
| the line that $100k only has $50k buying power (in original
| year terms), so its easier to pay off?
| eindiran wrote:
| Yes inflation does mean exactly that, but maybe OP meant
| interest rates (which I believe have been trending up of
| late).
| nprz wrote:
| The world's most intelligent people can't figure out a way to
| make a 50k salary without spending 300k on education?
| bluedevil2k wrote:
| And almost all got loans backed by the US government that they
| won't be able to repay and will fall on the US taxpayer to cover.
| Essentially USC bilked the US taxpayers out of millions, with
| these poor students serving as the unfortunate middlemen.
| Solution: make the universities have some skin the game - cover
| 20% of the principal on defaulted loans.
| jdavis703 wrote:
| Won't that solution make it harder for students from
| economically disadvantaged backgrounds to get loans? Or is the
| idea here that universities would be prohibited from applying
| risk management to their loan portfolio?
| datavirtue wrote:
| Most economically disadvantaged people don't even know they
| can get a loan. I used to assume everyone knew about
| government college loans. Most do not.
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| Based on my understanding of PSLF, that's a feature not a bug
| dnissley wrote:
| Agreed. Any proposed solution to the student debt crisis that
| doesn't hold schools accountable is not a solution at all.
| snarf21 wrote:
| I agree but I think the government should set a max on the
| amount they will guarantee. The colleges are smart and will set
| tuition at the max guarantee because they don't want risk. They
| can cut social programs and stop building Taj Mahal dorms to
| get the price back in line.
| passivate wrote:
| Yep, Additionally we could also push for tuition-free community
| colleges to reduce the need for for-profit colleges in the
| first place.
| woeirua wrote:
| Given the price inelasticity of college, the money to cover
| these defaults would probably just come from other students.
| They'd just hike tuition to cover the risk.
|
| A much better solution is to revoke the ability of students at
| specific schools/programs to qualify for federal student loans
| if the outcomes of the program are poor. Turn off the spigot of
| money, and they will cleanup their act really quickly.
| vgeek wrote:
| There was a push with the Common Data Set
| (https://commondataset.org/) to help increase transparency to
| potential students, but it runs into a Prisoner's Dilemma,
| with poor outcome organizations opting not to participate.
|
| The Department of Education _should_ have a vested interest
| specifically in the way that you mention, and they did set up
| a site that communicates historical outcomes of majors at a
| per school level at https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/, but it
| gets little visibility in the college marketing funnel that
| is filled with for profit enterprises like US News and
| Niche-- plus the marketing (admissions and/or athletics)
| departments of colleges themselves.
| datavirtue wrote:
| You can't just hike tuition unless the government is pumping
| out 100% loans. This is crazy.
| cobookman wrote:
| US Government gets paid back also through tax revenues on the
| salaries of the school, salaries of studends, expenditures of
| the schools to US based companies, etc.
|
| It might still be favorable for the US Tax Payer even if these
| loans end up un-paid.
| bluedevil2k wrote:
| I don't know what colleges you're looking at, but you're
| misguided if you think colleges spend 100% of the tuition
| they receive. Schools like Harvard, Yale, Duke, etc. have
| multi-billion dollar endowments that just keep growing. Many
| colleges have so much money coming in and are forced to spend
| to keep their non-profit status that they build opulent dorm
| rooms, buildings they don't need, and have more Vice Provosts
| than banks have Vice Presidents. My own alma mater has TWO
| art museums on campus!
| lazerpants wrote:
| Most universities I'm familiar with spend 100% of their
| tuition on operations and some amount over that from
| endowment income. While they do have endowments, those are
| restricted and cannot be used for anything except their
| contractually agreed to purpose (scholarships, faculty
| lines, research for xyz thing, etc.).
| literallyaduck wrote:
| We should aggressively target universities who commit this type
| of fraud and seize their assets, buildings, real estate,
| donations and endowments to recoup the taxpayers money.
| jamestimmins wrote:
| Where is the fraud? I acknowledge the unethical behavior, but
| that's distinct from fraud.
| literallyaduck wrote:
| Underwriting loans which the borrower has no ability to
| repay is fraud.
| HWR_14 wrote:
| Your proposal pretty much already exists (although at the 10/90
| split level). If your program doesn't have 10% covered by non
| us government loans in any year you can lose eligibility for
| any us government loans going forward. It's happened before, in
| fact I think that is what forced DeVry to shut down.
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